🇮🇹 Subscribe to the @Metatron and watch his newest video where he speaks in exquisite Classical Latin pronunciation! ⚔️ and teaches us about the Lōrīca Segmentāta armour entirely in Latin. ruclips.net/video/lJq_l6Ihs2c/видео.html 🇪🇸 And another of new my favorite channels is @Linguriosa who talks all about language and changes from Latin to Spanish, among other really cool topics: ruclips.net/video/WZ_X_yTWN0E/видео.html 🗡 Latin V pronuncation history: ruclips.net/video/hovf-UK-toQ/видео.html 📖 My Latin meter and poetry recitation lessons: ruclips.net/p/PLQQL5IeNgck0-tQ4AZgKFMlQCJud_VY_H 🏺 The Lucian Pronuncation of Ancient Greek: ruclips.net/video/Dt9z5Gvp3MM/видео.html 🏛 The Immortal Language: How Pronunciation Made Meaning Everlasting: ruclips.net/video/XeqTuPZv9as/видео.html ⛪️ In Defense of the Ecclesiastical Pronunciation of Latin | Ecclesiastical vs Classical Pronunciation: ruclips.net/video/zq3FJNibKHk/видео.html 🏴 Dialect VS Language | Italian Dialects, Scots Language, Romance Languages, Greek Dialects: ruclips.net/video/zUlNhs8rJ_g/видео.html And if you like, do consider joining this channel: ruclips.net/channel/UCLbiwlm3poGNh5XSVlXBkGAjoin 🦂 Support my work on Patreon: www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri ☕️ Support my work with PayPal: paypal.me/lukeranieri 📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com 🏛 Ancient Greek in Action · Free Greek Lessons: ruclips.net/p/PLU1WuLg45SixsonRdfNNv-CPNq8xUwgam 👨🏫 My Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata playlist · Free Latin Lessons: ruclips.net/video/j7hd799IznU/видео.html 🦂 ScorpioMartianus (my channel *entirely* in Latin & Ancient Greek) ruclips.net/user/polymathyluke 🌍 polýMATHY website: lukeranieri.com/polymathy/ 😊 polýMATHY on Facebook: facebook.com/lukepolymath 🐦 polýMATHY on Twitter: twitter.com/LukePolymath/ 🎮 Join the Discord community: discord.gg/u4PN2u2 🌅 polýMATHY on Instagram: instagram.com/lukeranieri/ 🦁 Legio XIII Latin Language Podcast: ruclips.net/user/LegioXIII 🎙 Hundreds of hours of Latin & Greek audio: lukeranieri.com/audio 👕 Merch: teespring.com/stores/scorpiomartianus 🦂 www.ScorpioMartianus.com 🦅 www.LukeRanieri.com ☕️ Supported in part by LanguageMugs.com : languagemugs.com/shop/?wpam_id=11 📖 My book Ranieri Reverse Recall on Amazon: amzn.to/2nVUfqd
Mihi quoque! Cognoscere volo quare in Gallicanum romanum "caballum" est "cheval"; "caelum" est "ciel", sed "consilio" est "conseil" etiam "canem" est "chien" et "carnem" est "chair", deinde "caputem" est "chef", tandem "cannam" est "canne" et "captivum" est "captif". Sunt insani, iste Gallici!
@@PACotnoir1 probably because of the following vowel the pronunciation of /ae/ or separated n(vowel) ... e/i determines the vowel before. /a/ becomes /e/ or /i/. That's why *a* plus *a* didn't affect the consonant before /a/.
As an italian, i feel personally attacked by the accurate imitation at the very beginning of this video. So i'm going to express my disappointment by subscribing to this interesting channel
And even more clearly Quintilian tells us here: "c littera, *quae ad omnis vocalis vim suam perferat.* " "the letter c *which maintains its strength when followed with all the vowels.* " (In this context he's talking about why K is a useless letter, because C always makes the same sound regardless of what vowel follows)
Hi Paleogloss, I just would like to make a clarification on this passage from Quintilian. If we analyze the text, Quintilian does not say that the letter C maintains the "same" strength in front of all vowels (this would have been an unequivocal affirmation in favor of the sound always as "K"), but simply says that the letter C maintains "its" strength in front of all vowels: but what strength? Its strength, i.e. diction, in front of the vowels I and E could be different from its strength, i.e. diction, in front of A, O and U. So in my opinion, this passage is not conclusive. Since the letter K was used only in front of the letter A, Quintilian is telling us that he considers useless to use it, since there is a C, which in front of the A has the same sound as the K (but in front of the A, therefore it is not saying nothing about the sound of the C in front of the vowels E and I)
@@danieled1135 How could its strength before I and E be different from its strength before other vowels if, as Quintilian says, it preserves its strength before *all* vowels? Of course K was used only before A in Latin, but if Quintilian meant to tell us that K is useless because C has the same sound before A as before O and U specifically, he absolutely would not have said 'C retains its force before all vowels'. No, it's quite clear that what Quintilian is saying is that the sound that K makes before A is the same sound that C makes before all other vowels. Of course, if this were the only piece of evidence nobody would claim to be as certain as we are, but the following facts confirm Quintilian's statement: -Latin CI and CE is always transcribed in Greek as κι κε (e.g. Cicero -> Κικέρων). Compare this to Italian words borrowed into Greek where CI and CE are borrowed as τσι τσε, e.g. 'circo' -> 'τσιρκο'. You will also hear this when any Greek speaks Italian - the Italian ci/ce sound is interpreted by Greeks as τσ, and they regularly fail to distinguish ci/ce from zi/ze. -Morphophonological alternations in Romance prove that a process of palatalization has occurred, e.g. 'conosco/conosci', 'amico/amici' - these sorts of alternations *always* come about through a secondary process of phonological shift. The question then is not whether /k/ became /t͡ʃ/, but when. The fact that Sardinian lacks this palatalization completely, and Dalmatian only had it before /i/ but not before /e/, allows us to be pretty much certain that it is a postclassical development -When palatalization of /tj/ to /ts/ occurs, the grammarians notice and are prescribing it by the 4th century. The notion that they wouldn't have noticed such a drastic palatalization as [k] -> [t͡ʃ] is pretty much impossible, especially in light of what Quintilian tells us. No speaker of Italian, even if they are never educated about historical phonology, would think that the letter C 'preserves its force before all vowels'. Italians are intimately aware of the alternations in words like 'amico', which is precisely why it feels so strange to them that Latin should lack these alternations.
@J Boss "You're the only person in the world who will ever read someone say "it maintains same strength" and interpret it as "well, its strength could vary" " --> Quintilian does not write that C letter maintains the same strength, but that it maintains its strength. Try to read more carefully and especially not to insult for free
@J Boss "C" soft sound (as in english word "child" or in italian "cibo") has its "strength". "C" hard sound (as in english word "cat" or in italian "cane") has its "strength", so the sound of "C" keeps its strength (palatal in one case, velar in the other) in all cases. The "C" sound in "cat" is not stronger than the "C" sound in "child", they are simply 2 different articulation points in the phonological apparatus, that keep their intrinsic diction. That is my interpretation of the Quintilianus passage
A linguistic and historical lesson. It’s amazing when you stop and think about it. All the languages that have been spoken over time and how annunciation and pronunciation are so very important.
Nessuno ama l'umanità più dei linguisti e con questo intendo l'umanità tutta, passata e presente. E anche nel momento in cui una lingua sia lontana dal gusto personale, la trattate sempre con estremo rispetto. Il linguaggio è qualcosa di vivo, proprio come noi, nelle sue molteplici forme si evolve influenzando e influenzandosi continuamente. Non esiste esclusione, non esiste emarginazione, e se qualcuno mai avanzasse, anche ingenuamente, queste tesi nello studio delle lingue... semplicemente non sarebbe un linguista. So, for you Luke only love and respect.
A few remarks about Albanian (from an Albanian language specialist): It is positively surprising that you mention Albanian here! I have been casually watching your old videos in the past few weeks and they are, as always, incredibly informative and amusing. However, some of the examples taken for Albanian are not entirely adequate. The ancestors of modern Albanian speakers have indeed been in contact with Latin starting from about the 2nd century BC -- however, this contact stretched out for many centuries hence, which means that Latin itself changed and local proto-Romance idioms started forming in the Balkans adjacent to and among the areas were Albanian was spoken (e.g. Proto-Romanian, Proto-Dalmatian, etc.) This naturally makes it quite pain-staking to know which idiom is the source of a given word in Albanian, but we have a general idea of what words are significantly older than others. For one, gjeni 'genius' is definitely a modern borrowing from Romance and cannot be grouped with the rest of the words mentioned. On the other hand, qind /cind/ 'hundred' < lat. centum and gjind /ɟind/ < lat. gentem are completely right and most likely belong to the older set of borrowed lexical units. Other words that are certainly older belong to church terminology (as Christianity was brought to the Albanian-speakers through the Roman Empire) and some of them also show this change: kryq /kɾyc/ 'cross' from lat. crux (acc. crucem), engjëll /ˈɛnɟəɫ/ 'angel', ungjill /unˈɟiɫ/ 'gospel' < ēvangelium; some personal names also belong to this group, e.g. Gjergj /ɟɛɾɟ/ < lat. Geōrgius. However, the palatalisation of velar plosives preceding front vowels likely happened within Albanian (and wasn't directly borrowed from Latin) as Albanian most likely did not have a /ɟ/ and /c/ sound at the time the oldest Latin borrowings, so they couldn't have been rendered as such. This is obvious if we look at verbal borrowings such as dërgon /dəɾˈgɔn/ 'he/she sends/ < lat. dīrigere (most likely borrowed from the infinitive or the third person singular dīrigit, both of which have a g + front vowel) whereby the stem dīrig- /ˈdiːriɡ/ (and not /ˈdiːriɟ/!) was fitted within the -on type of the first conjugation in Albanian, and as such remains unpalatalized today (compare Italian dirigere /diˈrid͡ʒere/). On the other hand, verbs like (më) pëlqen /pəlˈcɛn/ 'he/she likes' < lat. placēre, whereby the stem /plak-/ was fitted within the -en type of the first conjugation and, being now in front of /e/, it was ultimately palatalized within Albanian during the next few centuries. Albanian is a wonderful language to study, especially if we want to understand more about how significant the influence of Latin was all over the Roman Empire. If you'd be interested to do something in this direction, let me know! Best, Plator
Although Basque is not a romance language it has many words of latin and romance origin. Depending on when a word was borrowed it may retain the classical pronunciation of Latin. Some examples: bake (
I didn't realize that you were a comedian as well as a linguist! You had me laughing here in between the stimulating content. Great and interesting work as always, Luce!
Thanks very kindly! I don’t have a very Hugh opinion of my own attempts at humor, but I’m really glad if you found it entertaining. 😊 Thanks for the comment
Well, tsar is what I understand the russian version of the word. And up here in Sweden, we say kejsare but this is pronunced with a soft sound, kind of like 'sheisare'. So it went from kaiser to sheisare or from latin? I don't know, but the fact that kaiser is pronunced with hard k does not "prove" anything. I think what he is really saying in the video is that they have picked one dialect of the latin language as the official dialect. Which is fine.
@@Psykorr I think it is a similar shift from /k/ sound to /ts/, /s/ or similar to English *sh* before weak vowels like e or i as in Swedish. The k before kötbullar is also like a sh sound. So I think the Swedish took the word from German and made the a sound in the diphthong unrounded to an e sound which caused sh sound for k. Otherwise I think the Swedes would have loaned it when it was already a ts sound or a tsh sound as in vulgar Latin. Whereas German has it directly from Latin in classic times.
As a slavist to me this rings many bells; the centum, satem references and the velar palatalisations that occurred over time through the slavic world. I only managed 1 year of Latin at school - really must revisit. Thanks.
Haha it's still a part of many native speakers' speech, mostly found in the Western US and in Scotland. It's not naturally a part of my speech, but I have voluntarily trained myself to do it, since I deal with archaic pronunciations is many languages. Just like my intervocalic T, I sometimes make it clear, and othe times I do not. When I read about Roman grammarians recommending older more conservative pronunciations 2000 years ago, and then I follow their advice, it seems okay for me to add some archaizing variety to my own speech, no? 😃
@@polyMATHY_Luke Fair enough! It sounded intentional, but I didn't know it was still a natural part of English in some places. I know you already did a video on 'ρ' and its aspiration, but perhaps the similitude between 'ρ' and 'wh' will intrigue some people, should you ever find occasion to mention it.
@@christopherellis2663 I recently learned that Venetian traditionally has the same /θ/ as European Spanish, however most modern speakers just use /s/ under influence from Italian.
Ecce litera 🤣🤣🤣 just love everything about this video! Your vivid explanations, your further videos for almost every topic, the look inside Pantheon and your armchair alter ego. Brill🤓iant 👏👏👏😘
Old Latin had an interesting rule where the velar stop was written differently depending on the letter after it. Before O and U it was Q, before E and I it was C, and before everything else it was K. For example, Kalends is written with a K.
Finally! I was really looking forward to see a video on this topic! Also Sardinian is such an interesting language, I’m glad you talked about it, also Albanian borrowed word, I remember having come across the word peshk/pishk, fish, and thought about how it retained the k, and doing research found there was a ton of Albanian words from Latin with the "hard c" and "hard g" sounds retained. One other thing that came to mind are cognates in Greek or Latin words borrowed from Greek (and some words in Greek borrowed from Latin at the time) like how we have ωκεανός or κέντρον with both the "hard c" sound in Greek (why would they have become k sounds in Latin), or how some evolutions retained the old k sound, like in French vaincre (to defeat) or Dalmatian kenur (to dine), lukierna (lamp), pask (fish), radaika (root), kanaisa (ash), gheluat (cold), fakir (to do) and others. Also in Celtic languages and in Basque there are many loan words that retained the k and g sound where it became the "soft c" sounds in Romance languages.
Absolutely! Other fastantic pieces of evidence. There is just so much to go on, that it's silly to think the Italian pronunciation of Latin was part of deep antiquity. Thanks for the comment!
@@polyMATHY_Luke No problem! Also little correction; I meant “also Albanian borrowed words *are interesting*”, you already did mention Albanian borrowed words in your video 😂
Also In logudorese/nuorese Sardinian dialects: kenare (lat. cenare, ital. cenare); kena (lat. cenam, ital. cena); luke/lughe (lat. lucem, ital. luce); piske (lat. piscem, ital. pesce); raike/raighe (lat. radicem, ital. radice); fakere/faghere (lat. facere, ital. fare); dulke (lat. dulcem, ital. dolce); kera (lat. ceram, ital. cera); piakere/piaghere (lat. placere, ital. piacere); naskere (lat. nasci, ital. nascere); deke/deghe (lat. decem, ital. dieci); kentu (lat. centum, ital. cento); iskire (lat. scire, ital. sapere); connoskere (lat. cognoscere, ital. conoscere); pake/paghe (lat. pacem, ital. pace); bokkire ma anche okkire (lat. occidere, ital. uccidere); boke/boghe ma anche oke/oghe (lat. vocem, ital. voce); kiterra/ghiterra (lat. cithara, da cui ital. chitarra, cetra); kito (lat. cito, ital. presto); kelu (lat. celum, ital. cielo); aghedu (lat. acetum, ital. aceto); iskidare (lat. excitare, ital. svegliare) and many others ....
@@tomasinaaddis6559 emmo bi sunt tantos faeddos in sardu cun sa retentzione de sonos sincheros latinos chi non esistant pius in sas atteras limbas romanigas
I love this channel, I'm an Albanian myself and i am fascinated by Languages and lately by Latin too. Lately i noticed how much Latin words i subconsciously used in my language without really thinking of it. The Albanian language itself is very very old and rich, but many words are forgotten and replaced by Latin ones. Out of 10 words of today's Albanian, 5 or 6 are solid Latin, for example: Ështe from Est= It is Dërgoj from Dirigo= Send Herë from Hora= Time (one more time) Pëllumb from Palumbus= Bird Popull from Populus=People Rrugë from Ruga= Road or path Shigjetar from Sagittarius= Bowman Qiell from Caelum= Sky Shpatull from Spatula= Shoulder Shtrat from Stratum= Bed Paqe from Pax= Peace Peshk from Piscis= Fish E Martë from Dies Martis= Tuesday E Mërkurë from Dies Mercurii= Thursday Etc
Brazilian Portuguese native here, that learned some Latin with Nonna classes: It’s cool when you mention the differences between ecclesiastic Latin and Classical Latin. Growing up in Brazil, my grandma (daughter of an Italian immigrant), had Latin, French and English classes in school back in the 30s (she was born in 1929, and passed away last year, 2021). Ok, she couldn’t speak any of these languages fluently, but she could communicate a little in French, she wouldn’t starve in an English speaking place, and Latin, back then, was taught more for religious reasons (Catholic Church masses were in Latin until the 60s, if my memory doesn’t fail). And that’s how I learned a little of Latin when I was a kid, with her, and it mostly Catholic Latin. There was one single church in my hometown (Curitiba, Brazil) that had some masses in latin. I don’t know if they still doing that, I live in San Francisco, USA, but I no longer even consider myself a Catholic probably since I was 15, so it’s been almost 15 years since I last been to that church. I remember going to these masses, and I could keep up with the priest and understand most of what he was saying. Of course, I had my grandma teaching me a lot the basis, and she had a book in Latin with all the masses throughout the year. I’d get this book and read a lot of what the priest was saying, and that helped a lot to understand, since Portuguese-Latin similarities become even more obvious when the language is written. By the way, grandma could not speak fluent Latin, but she could teach me a lot, she would always lend me her books in Latin and let me explore. Still, I remember how she taught me to pronounce “C” in Latin, which was C is pronounced in “Ciao” in Italian. I remember, classic example, at “Our Father”, she would say the beginning “Pater Noster qui es in Caelis” pronounced like “Pater Noster kee (instead “kwee”, trying to write vocalically in English haha) es in “Chelis” (Ch being pronounced like in “cheese” in English, and the “e” pronounced like “é” in Portuguese, and I can’t find that sound in English). Basically, her pronunciation was very ecclesiastic.
I am a portuguese native speaker. Now I am learning italian and romanian simutaneously and your videos help me to cope with that suicidal strategy i've made for myself. You're a great linguist and I admire the ability you have. Hope some day I have a small percentage of it. Cheers from Brazil!
Vale! You could do a video about roman legion weapons and their names like for example the gladius sword the pugio etc. With your knowledge in latin this can be pretty cool for many ancient rome enthusiasts. You can even include the names of their armor and such. Anyways great video bro!
Interesting video! Learned some details that are not in my syllabus, but I more or less knew what you said (thanks to all the diachronic linguistics I have this semester). Also, I welcome any and all topics you deem interesting enough to talk about.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Looking forward to it! I tend to skip the longer videos for now because I have a bachelor's thesis to write, but I might binge during the summer. Unfortunately, Latin pronunciation won't help me much in my analysis of Augustinian arguments xD.
Hey Luke, interestingly these sound changes from k to ch and s can also be found in Dravidian languages. Linguists also consider the velar "k" sounds were pronounced in ancient Dravidian languages. Many modern Dravidian languages like Telugu, Tamizh, Malayalam pronounce it as "ch", where Kannada also a Dravidian language pronounced as "k" and "g". And also interestingly many c and s changes have occurred due to front vowels in between them. For example the Dravidian word for hand in all languages is "kai" or "kay", but the Dravidian word for "do" differs with Kannada and other Dravidian languages. In Tamizh it is "cheyi" and in Telugu it is "chēsi". But in Kannada it is "gēydu" with velar g. We can find enormous example like these. In Tamil, the word for red is "sevempu" but in Kannada it is "kempu". In Tamil the word for small or tiny is "Chiru", but in Kannada it is "Kiru". So here Kannada retains the original Dravidian "k" sounds as like sardinian in romance languages.
@@polyMATHY_Luke No, I was referring to Latin of course. What I meant to point out was that Latin CE, GE was SLIGHTLY palatal, nothing like the sound of Spanish QUE, GUE. Full palatalization in Modern Greek occurs only in the Cretan varsion In the rest of the country it is slightly palatal, never velar. A similar phenomenon occurs in German with front vowel+CH, which tends towards SCH, and back vowel+CH, which is always velar.
@@georgiosmalfas8824 Latin CE GE certainly became palatalized like Greek κι κε but this was probably not yet the case during the classical period since Sardinian has fully velar [k] in this position (like Spanish 'qui que')
Excellent video as always, reminds me very much of the video from Metatron on the same topic. I still find the sound shift of C and G fascinating because it happens in so many languages as you mention. Sardinian's conservativism in this regard is fascinating.
Professional content as usual, Sir. I really apprechiate watching your videos with my monocle from my armchair, scratching my 19century mustache at the philosopher pose xD Seriously, love your videos Luke!!
Hey Luke, I just want to say respect and thanks a lot for what you are doing. I am neither learning latin nor ancient greek, but had them at school, hated them there (as a subject) and never learned anything because they were taught terribly (at least for me and 99% of the class). Now I've seen you a couple of times appearing on different channels I regularly watch (ecolinguist or podcast italiano for example) and I am so amazed seeing how you are able to talk in latin, it's very cool (it was never like that at school, never seen a teacher "freely" talking to us in latin, just translating and grammar exercises) and every time I think what a fantastic teacher you are and that I would have learned so much more with you as a teacher haha. Now I find myself watching your videos every now and then (while in school I would have never expected to one day watch videos about latin pronunciation in my free time haha) Anyways, I think it's fantastic what you are doing, I am sure you are helping a lot of people out there studying these languages or getting interested, great channels and cool videos!
I'm almost sure the palatalization of Ce and Ci in portuguese (probably occured in the same way to spanish) - from latin /ke/ to modern /se/ - went through a middle stage /tse/, similar to italian /tʃe/, what makes me think that this change happened in vulgar latin... so, same for ge and gi, that would be /dʒe/ and /dʒi/. Not sure, though, but it would explain a lot how soft C happened in western romance languages...
Great video as always. I'd been wondering for some time why Latin used Q at all, being so similar to C. I was aware of the slight difference in pronunciation in Spanish and Italian, but didn't think it translated to to Latin in a similar way. And yes, you should make a video about CE and CI pronunciations in Romance languages.
This reminds me of a story my grandpa used to tell me before he, well... "relinquerit animam", so to speak: imagine being a little kid in early 1930's Sicily, Arethusa's district of Syracuse to be exact. Your education mostly comes from the friars and monks that run the only school in town that your family could afford and you love being there, reading all sorts of literature and scientific texts. The monks heavily hammer on all forms of Greek and Latin, so you can easily read all the texts in the library. One day, they find you reading De Bello Gallico with an Ecclesiastic pronunciation, one of the monks gives you a slap on the back side of your head. "Caesar with the pronounciation of Saint Peter? Do it right, boy, you have to use the Classical in this case!" Sometimes, things never change XD
What is weird for us Spanish speakers is how we isolated ourselves so much with c, j, g and x when it used to be very similar if not the same as any other Romance language
In Russia we are taught to pronounce latin "ce/cae" and "ci" as [tse] and [tsi], i.e. caesar is articulated as [tsezar] (in the modern Russian this historic title is pronounced the same way), dicere as [ditsere], etc.
Well, as you said... please make a video about the sound of C in the romance languages you mentioned! And if it could also include the intriguing story of the ch in french (as in château - castle - castelo or chat - cat - gato or Charles - Carlos - Carollus)
Thanks for the great work! As a sardinian speaker I would point out a few things: chentu, fachere, deche are pronounced with a ch=k in a number of town, but most sardinians pronounce it with a sound that is intermidiate beteween a k and a hard g, and sometimes even just as a hard g. Regarding, ghente, it may very well be true, but honestly I never heard it, it's either zente or genti with a soft g.
@@riccardocollu8610 I didnt exclude right away because as you know there is a lot of variety in out language, so I thought that it may just be a variety onto which i had never stumbled upon; either way, even if it does actually exists somewhere, it is surely a minor variety compared to genti and zente
Non è vero, dipende. Nella variante nuorese è proprio una k dura: kelu, kena. La g è nel logudorese. Nella mia zone si parla il logudorese ma sono della provincia di nuoro e nella mia famiglia si parlano entrambe le varianti. Nel nuorese si dice (f)akere, la f spesso non si pronuncia. Da noi faghere.
"It is natural for [ke] and [ge] to change into [ce] and [ʝe]." Meanwhile, in the German language, people changing to pronunciation of "Chemie" [çeˈmiː] into [keˈmiː] because they find the [ç]-sound in front of i/e too difficult.
A similar trend can be seen in words of Chinese origin - for example, the Chinese character 間 is pronounced 'gan' in Cantonese and Korean, but 'jian' in Mandarin. If I'm not mistaken, Mandarin pronunciation is generally divergent from Old Chinese, while Cantonese and Korean pronunciations are more conservative, so the development of the 'j' sound was a transformation from the hard 'g' sound
間 is in Div. II in Middle Chinese, which is the language thought to have been ancestral to the Go-on and Kan-on strata of Sino-Japanese pronunciation. Linguists reconstruct the glide /r/ between the onset and nucleus. It is thought this glide has triggered palatalization during the transition between Middle Chinese and Mandarin. This means the Middle Chinese Div. II and III have merged in some contexts; in Cantonese, Div. II and I have merged in the onset, losing the glide, but the vowel in Div. I has rounded.
My favourite example of bizzare linguistic traces is that people in the Kansai region of Japan recite the numbers 1-10 with the same cadence as Cantonese speakers.
In Russian loan latin words with originally latin "c" promounced usually with "ц" ("ts") sound. E.g. "cyclop" is "циклоп" ("Tsiklop"). The funny thing is... it depends on time when (or most probably language where from) the latin word came to Russian. One of great example is word "Centaurus" which is "кентавр" ("Kentavr") when we talk about the mythical creatures BUT "Центавр" (Tsentavr) when we talk about the constellation.
In Croatian we have changes called sibilarization and palatalization where k, g, h change to c (as in tzatziki), z (as in zero), s (as in sun) or č (as in change), ž (as in genre), š (as in sheep) before e and i
I would call Albanian: a ”near-language-isolate”, though; because it is still, technically, an Indo-European language; and thus, it technically has relatives, albeit distant ones; unlike *_”TRUE”_* language isolates, like Korean (if you don’t consider the various dialects, as separate languages), and Purépecha 🇦🇱.
This clarifies everything, thanks! Don't think I'm like that pompous Oxbridge don, I think Italian-style pronunciations sounds much better, too, but [k] is easier in terms of consistency.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks, I'll be sure to watch it. I just watched your video on w/v and you made a lot of good points. BTW, as you undoubtedly know, in German, the letters c and z (invervocalic or at the beginning of a word) are usually pronounced ts, like Cäsar = [tsézar] -> tsar, and I believe Germans usually pronounce the letter c as [ts] in Latin, too. Do think that could be historically justifiable? (not to be prescriptive or anything).
maybe you can consider making a video regarding the similarities between german and latin: there are a lot of latin stuff in german... some words are the same as latin and some letters has the same sound (like q very similar to k, y said almost like an u, the letter g as 'ge'...etc)
Doesn't absence of U contributed a lot to preservation of Q? Because before introduction of U, when V used both for U and V, difference between Q and C helps people to read (compare CVIVS/QVIVS).
That's a great point. If we deleted q but kept v in the alphabet for the /w/ sound, then cv would be a perfectly fine digraph in place of qu. But I do like that qu is different frow /kw/ since it's only one consonant sound, not two.
LOL those impressions were amazing. Also really fascinating video as always. Though, one can not help but ask, is that third episode of Barbarians' Latin still in the works, or has it been cancelled? I think you told me on Patreon that it was likely to come out by the end of March :D
Thanks! Yes, I have had a lot of projects lately, sorry for the long, long delay. The Ancient Greek in Action series has been a major focus since it's important for my private students. But I *will* do every episode of Barbarians. How could I not? 😃 Thanks so much for being a fan.
In Breton, Latin loans with "c" in the initial keep the "k" sound: cena --> koen / koan (diner) cera --> koer / koar (wax) (The long "e" of Latin was first diphthonged into /we/, which later became /wa/, except in the southwestern third which has retained the diphthong /we/ to this day.) civitate --> keoded cella --> kell circulus --> kelc'h cerasum --> kerez (cherry)
In Old English, the combination of the front vowel(s) with c is pronounced as ch (for example: ic (the first person singular pronoun I) - pronounced like "each") And for g it made a y sound (for example: Hunig (honey) - Hooney
1:11 I respectfully disagree, mostly perhaps because I am a snob who prefers Classical Pronunciation, mostly due to your videos which have taught me so much
Haha sure! You use whatever pronunciation you desire. Obviously I also prefer to speak that way in my own life, but I certainly don't want to make those who prefer Ecclesiastical pronunciation feel unwelcome. I think it's mostly like UK vs US pronunciation standards that non-Anglophones choose when growing up. Thanks for the comment, amīce!
@@polyMATHY_Luke I feel so glad to see your answer here, Luke. My girlfriend and I have been watching your content since October and we like it so much. Additionally, I've applied what I've learned with you (Latin Language) to approach her family and earn their trust by speaking Latin while talking about religion, of which I am no follower, but I enjoy its content.
Wow I thought of this on my known 7 months ago. U in g γ, T to δ, and in B Also q makes hard e. g. Equus, Ηίqvoς, Ηίππος Quinque πέμπε, aeolian πέντε. Great video
In sorani kurdish, this same palatalization occurs. Some dialects pronouns ce or ge as che (or a palatal c) and je. I pronounce it as the original form as it is normal in our dialect
All Slavic languages had three palatalization, and Kashubian (minority language used in the North of Polnd) had also the fourth one. For example the capital of Ukraine in Kashubian is Czijów (/tʃijof/) ;)
It is interesting to me that Arabic represented the Greek Kappa with the ق or /q/ sound in borrowed words. It shows you how different these sounds to the regular k or hard c in English since Arabic could have used that but didn't.
the reason is that kaf was, at the time, aspirated, and more of a fit for greek χ, this is usual in semitic languages. the emphatic consonants were used for the greek unaspirates, the plain semitic consonants were used for the greek aspirates.
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Great video by Metatron. But he has some speech defect I can’t quite pin down exactly what it is.
I'd like to see a video about why CE; CI; GE and GI sound the way they do in Portuguese, French and Spanish.
Coming right up, my friend!
Mihi quoque! Cognoscere volo quare in Gallicanum romanum "caballum" est "cheval"; "caelum" est "ciel", sed "consilio" est "conseil" etiam "canem" est "chien" et "carnem" est "chair", deinde "caputem" est "chef", tandem "cannam" est "canne" et "captivum" est "captif". Sunt insani, iste Gallici!
Your wish is an order ... Emperor
@@laurapavone3513 Timeunt usque laborunt!
@@PACotnoir1 probably because of the following vowel the pronunciation of /ae/ or separated n(vowel) ... e/i determines the vowel before. /a/ becomes /e/ or /i/. That's why *a* plus *a* didn't affect the consonant before /a/.
As an italian, i feel personally attacked by the accurate imitation at the very beginning of this video. So i'm going to express my disappointment by subscribing to this interesting channel
Hahah grazie mille, amico mio. Benvenuto!
🇮🇹
lol.
This is highly interesting! Do please continue!
Ma lo puoi mandare il testo in latino
And even more clearly Quintilian tells us here:
"c littera, *quae ad omnis vocalis vim suam perferat.* "
"the letter c *which maintains its strength when followed with all the vowels.* "
(In this context he's talking about why K is a useless letter, because C always makes the same sound regardless of what vowel follows)
Ah there it is! Why were you busy earlier today when I needed you? 😂 Thanks, my man! Great quote.
Hi Paleogloss, I just would like to make a clarification on this passage from Quintilian. If we analyze the text, Quintilian does not say that the letter C maintains the "same" strength in front of all vowels (this would have been an unequivocal affirmation in favor of the sound always as "K"), but simply says that the letter C maintains "its" strength in front of all vowels: but what strength? Its strength, i.e. diction, in front of the vowels I and E could be different from its strength, i.e. diction, in front of A, O and U. So in my opinion, this passage is not conclusive. Since the letter K was used only in front of the letter A, Quintilian is telling us that he considers useless to use it, since there is a C, which in front of the A has the same sound as the K (but in front of the A, therefore it is not saying nothing about the sound of the C in front of the vowels E and I)
@@danieled1135 How could its strength before I and E be different from its strength before other vowels if, as Quintilian says, it preserves its strength before *all* vowels? Of course K was used only before A in Latin, but if Quintilian meant to tell us that K is useless because C has the same sound before A as before O and U specifically, he absolutely would not have said 'C retains its force before all vowels'. No, it's quite clear that what Quintilian is saying is that the sound that K makes before A is the same sound that C makes before all other vowels.
Of course, if this were the only piece of evidence nobody would claim to be as certain as we are, but the following facts confirm Quintilian's statement:
-Latin CI and CE is always transcribed in Greek as κι κε (e.g. Cicero -> Κικέρων). Compare this to Italian words borrowed into Greek where CI and CE are borrowed as τσι τσε, e.g. 'circo' -> 'τσιρκο'. You will also hear this when any Greek speaks Italian - the Italian ci/ce sound is interpreted by Greeks as τσ, and they regularly fail to distinguish ci/ce from zi/ze.
-Morphophonological alternations in Romance prove that a process of palatalization has occurred, e.g. 'conosco/conosci', 'amico/amici' - these sorts of alternations *always* come about through a secondary process of phonological shift. The question then is not whether /k/ became /t͡ʃ/, but when. The fact that Sardinian lacks this palatalization completely, and Dalmatian only had it before /i/ but not before /e/, allows us to be pretty much certain that it is a postclassical development
-When palatalization of /tj/ to /ts/ occurs, the grammarians notice and are prescribing it by the 4th century. The notion that they wouldn't have noticed such a drastic palatalization as [k] -> [t͡ʃ] is pretty much impossible, especially in light of what Quintilian tells us. No speaker of Italian, even if they are never educated about historical phonology, would think that the letter C 'preserves its force before all vowels'. Italians are intimately aware of the alternations in words like 'amico', which is precisely why it feels so strange to them that Latin should lack these alternations.
@J Boss "You're the only person in the world who will ever read someone say "it maintains same strength" and interpret it as "well, its strength could vary" " --> Quintilian does not write that C letter maintains the same strength, but that it maintains its strength. Try to read more carefully and especially not to insult for free
@J Boss "C" soft sound (as in english word "child" or in italian "cibo") has its "strength". "C" hard sound (as in english word "cat" or in italian "cane") has its "strength", so the sound of "C" keeps its strength (palatal in one case, velar in the other) in all cases. The "C" sound in "cat" is not stronger than the "C" sound in "child", they are simply 2 different articulation points in the phonological apparatus, that keep their intrinsic diction. That is my interpretation of the Quintilianus passage
-"We need to travel to the emerald isle of..."
-*excited Irish noises*
-"...Sardinia"
-*sad Irish noises*
I’ve heard stories about C and G, but I had never thought I would see it here. Truly a blessing.
The blessing is having the chance to share it with you and the rest of the viewers!
when will you release your next album? I'm your biggest fan EVER
I would have never thought that I'd see my language (Albanian) be mentioned in your videos. I'm teary!
I wish I had more time to study Albanian 😊
@@polyMATHY_Luke studying Albanian in your case is really useful: you learn a new language, and you can make a new GOTCHA video lmao
A linguistic and historical lesson. It’s amazing when you stop and think about it. All the languages that have been spoken over time and how annunciation and pronunciation are so very important.
Indeed! I agree with you very much. It's fascinating.
I wake up late in the morning, just to find a new video waiting for me. Thank you, Luke, you made my day!
*Η καλημέρα από το πρωί φαίνεται* ☀️
Ok the impression of an Italian speaking in English has killed me!!
As an Italian myself I can only say: bravo!
Ahaha sono contento e ti è piaciuto. 😅 Mi vergogna un po’, specialmente perché adoro l’Italia e gli italiani.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Hai fatto benissimo! We behave annoyingly every time we stay abroad. Especially on food! A bit of mockery is welcome 😊
You’ve inspired me to learn Classical Latin, thanks for such a quality channel
Thanks for the kind words! I recommend my LLPSI playlist on my other channel: ruclips.net/p/PLU1WuLg45SiyrXahjvFahDuA060P487pV
@@polyMATHY_Luke thanks! Checking it out !
Yey, Luke mentions us! We are a linguistic fossil! Kisses and hugs from Sardinia! ❤️ Candu beni inoghe?
Ciao! Scusa se ti scrivo in italiano. Sono contento se è piaciuto il mio discorso. Non ho capito la frase in sardo.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Candu < quando
Beni < venis
Inoghe < in hoc(ce) = here
Had to look up inoghe, I admit it :).
Damn. That's basically latin. Luke should have understood :)
@@mickgorro Correct! We want you here 😘
@@mickgorro Si dovrebbe dire "cando benis a inoghe" perché in sardo si esprime sempre il moto a /da o stato inluogo
Nessuno ama l'umanità più dei linguisti e con questo intendo l'umanità tutta, passata e presente.
E anche nel momento in cui una lingua sia lontana dal gusto personale, la trattate sempre con estremo rispetto.
Il linguaggio è qualcosa di vivo, proprio come noi, nelle sue molteplici forme si evolve influenzando e influenzandosi continuamente. Non esiste esclusione, non esiste emarginazione, e se qualcuno mai avanzasse, anche ingenuamente, queste tesi nello studio delle lingue... semplicemente non sarebbe un linguista.
So, for you Luke only love and respect.
His commitment to the ecclesiastical latin disclaimer.
Respect.
A few remarks about Albanian (from an Albanian language specialist):
It is positively surprising that you mention Albanian here! I have been casually watching your old videos in the past few weeks and they are, as always, incredibly informative and amusing. However, some of the examples taken for Albanian are not entirely adequate.
The ancestors of modern Albanian speakers have indeed been in contact with Latin starting from about the 2nd century BC -- however, this contact stretched out for many centuries hence, which means that Latin itself changed and local proto-Romance idioms started forming in the Balkans adjacent to and among the areas were Albanian was spoken (e.g. Proto-Romanian, Proto-Dalmatian, etc.) This naturally makes it quite pain-staking to know which idiom is the source of a given word in Albanian, but we have a general idea of what words are significantly older than others.
For one, gjeni 'genius' is definitely a modern borrowing from Romance and cannot be grouped with the rest of the words mentioned. On the other hand, qind /cind/ 'hundred' < lat. centum and gjind /ɟind/ < lat. gentem are completely right and most likely belong to the older set of borrowed lexical units. Other words that are certainly older belong to church terminology (as Christianity was brought to the Albanian-speakers through the Roman Empire) and some of them also show this change: kryq /kɾyc/ 'cross' from lat. crux (acc. crucem), engjëll /ˈɛnɟəɫ/ 'angel', ungjill /unˈɟiɫ/ 'gospel' < ēvangelium; some personal names also belong to this group, e.g. Gjergj /ɟɛɾɟ/ < lat. Geōrgius.
However, the palatalisation of velar plosives preceding front vowels likely happened within Albanian (and wasn't directly borrowed from Latin) as Albanian most likely did not have a /ɟ/ and /c/ sound at the time the oldest Latin borrowings, so they couldn't have been rendered as such. This is obvious if we look at verbal borrowings such as dërgon /dəɾˈgɔn/ 'he/she sends/ < lat. dīrigere (most likely borrowed from the infinitive or the third person singular dīrigit, both of which have a g + front vowel) whereby the stem dīrig- /ˈdiːriɡ/ (and not /ˈdiːriɟ/!) was fitted within the -on type of the first conjugation in Albanian, and as such remains unpalatalized today (compare Italian dirigere /diˈrid͡ʒere/). On the other hand, verbs like (më) pëlqen /pəlˈcɛn/ 'he/she likes' < lat. placēre, whereby the stem /plak-/ was fitted within the -en type of the first conjugation and, being now in front of /e/, it was ultimately palatalized within Albanian during the next few centuries.
Albanian is a wonderful language to study, especially if we want to understand more about how significant the influence of Latin was all over the Roman Empire. If you'd be interested to do something in this direction, let me know!
Best,
Plator
Fascinating! Sure, write to me at ScorpioMartianus @ gmail
"Ecce littera!" I spit out my vino in laughter!
Although Basque is not a romance language it has many words of latin and romance origin. Depending on when a word was borrowed it may retain the classical pronunciation of Latin.
Some examples: bake (
We also say "lege" (lex ACC lege(m)/law), "merke" (merx/merchandise) (in Basque it means cheap), gerezi(a) (
Excellent examples! Yes, Basque has words both from ancient and more recent forms of Latin which is really neat.
Aupa Ander! Oso gustuko dut euskaldun beste bat hemen aurkitzea!
@@luismiguelcasal9162 Mis disculpas y sin ánimo de ofender, pero qué fue lo que escribió? Pura curiosidad nada más
@@Macharius89 Sin problema. "Hola Ander. Es un gran placer encontrarse aquí con otro vascoparlante"
I didn't realize that you were a comedian as well as a linguist! You had me laughing here in between the stimulating content. Great and interesting work as always, Luce!
Thanks very kindly! I don’t have a very Hugh opinion of my own attempts at humor, but I’m really glad if you found it entertaining. 😊 Thanks for the comment
Linguriosa is very good, I'm glad you're following her. :-)
She's my favorite.
I watch her for the jokes and her impersonations of RAE guy
Have a look on German *Kaiser* for Caesar, which is somewhat pronounced like the classical Latin one.
An excellent example!
I had this exact thought
It's interesting how both the word Kaiser and the name Cäsar are different in German
Well, tsar is what I understand the russian version of the word. And up here in Sweden, we say kejsare but this is pronunced with a soft sound, kind of like 'sheisare'. So it went from kaiser to sheisare or from latin? I don't know, but the fact that kaiser is pronunced with hard k does not "prove" anything.
I think what he is really saying in the video is that they have picked one dialect of the latin language as the official dialect. Which is fine.
@@Psykorr I think it is a similar shift from /k/ sound to /ts/, /s/ or similar to English *sh* before weak vowels like e or i as in Swedish. The k before kötbullar is also like a sh sound. So I think the Swedish took the word from German and made the a sound in the diphthong unrounded to an e sound which caused sh sound for k. Otherwise I think the Swedes would have loaned it when it was already a ts sound or a tsh sound as in vulgar Latin. Whereas German has it directly from Latin in classic times.
As a slavist to me this rings many bells; the centum, satem references and the velar palatalisations that occurred over time through the slavic world. I only managed 1 year of Latin at school - really must revisit. Thanks.
When you aspirate the “w” in words like “what” and “why”, I find it simultaneously aggravating and fascinating. Can you make a video about that?
Haha it's still a part of many native speakers' speech, mostly found in the Western US and in Scotland. It's not naturally a part of my speech, but I have voluntarily trained myself to do it, since I deal with archaic pronunciations is many languages. Just like my intervocalic T, I sometimes make it clear, and othe times I do not.
When I read about Roman grammarians recommending older more conservative pronunciations 2000 years ago, and then I follow their advice, it seems okay for me to add some archaizing variety to my own speech, no? 😃
@@polyMATHY_Luke Fair enough! It sounded intentional, but I didn't know it was still a natural part of English in some places.
I know you already did a video on 'ρ' and its aspiration, but perhaps the similitude between 'ρ' and 'wh' will intrigue some people, should you ever find occasion to mention it.
The wh- aspiration is common in Ireland too.
I also aspirate it, but that's because I grew up in Ireland (for some time, at least).
Great video. The pronounciation tips were amazing and explaining the distinction between front/back vowels was very enlightening. Thanks
Another excellent video!
Please make more videos like these, they're awesome! Bravo!
Okay, I will! 😃
It would be great if you talk about the " CE; CI; GE and GI pronunciation in Spanish, French and Portuguese :) Saludos!!!
You got it, Renato! 👍
Castilian has two versions of that.
That is interesting to know!
@@christopherellis2663 I recently learned that Venetian traditionally has the same /θ/ as European Spanish, however most modern speakers just use /s/ under influence from Italian.
@@alejandromartinezmontes6700 madridrileño, the rest of the country is happy with |s|
Il video che tutti i latinisti italiani e italòfoni attendevano! Aahahah! Grazie mille, sempre interessantissimi come al solito i tuoi contenuti!
Quality content, as usual!
Grazie, Davide!
Ecce litera 🤣🤣🤣 just love everything about this video! Your vivid explanations, your further videos for almost every topic, the look inside Pantheon and your armchair alter ego. Brill🤓iant 👏👏👏😘
Danke schön, amīcissima! 😃
Old Latin had an interesting rule where the velar stop was written differently depending on the letter after it. Before O and U it was Q, before E and I it was C, and before everything else it was K. For example, Kalends is written with a K.
That's right! I mentioned that in the video. 😊
@@polyMATHY_Luke could there be faliscan in the future or some niche member of other branches? a shoutout is great
Also bakhlos or bactrian is something else entirely tho in its heavenly horse trade instead in my time hearing it or the first exposure to it
In italian and I personally pronounce as [kʷ] and in even contrast [kʷɔ] "e.g. quota" from [kwɔ] "e.ɡ. cuoco"
That is exactly how Classical Latin "qu" was contrasted with "cu".
Finally! I was really looking forward to see a video on this topic!
Also Sardinian is such an interesting language, I’m glad you talked about it, also Albanian borrowed word, I remember having come across the word peshk/pishk, fish, and thought about how it retained the k, and doing research found there was a ton of Albanian words from Latin with the "hard c" and "hard g" sounds retained.
One other thing that came to mind are cognates in Greek or Latin words borrowed from Greek (and some words in Greek borrowed from Latin at the time) like how we have ωκεανός or κέντρον with both the "hard c" sound in Greek (why would they have become k sounds in Latin), or how some evolutions retained the old k sound, like in French vaincre (to defeat) or Dalmatian kenur (to dine), lukierna (lamp), pask (fish), radaika (root), kanaisa (ash), gheluat (cold), fakir (to do) and others. Also in Celtic languages and in Basque there are many loan words that retained the k and g sound where it became the "soft c" sounds in Romance languages.
Absolutely! Other fastantic pieces of evidence. There is just so much to go on, that it's silly to think the Italian pronunciation of Latin was part of deep antiquity. Thanks for the comment!
@@polyMATHY_Luke No problem! Also little correction; I meant “also Albanian borrowed words *are interesting*”, you already did mention Albanian borrowed words in your video 😂
Also In logudorese/nuorese Sardinian dialects: kenare (lat. cenare, ital. cenare); kena (lat. cenam, ital. cena); luke/lughe (lat. lucem, ital. luce); piske (lat. piscem, ital. pesce); raike/raighe (lat. radicem, ital. radice); fakere/faghere (lat. facere, ital. fare); dulke (lat. dulcem, ital. dolce); kera (lat. ceram, ital. cera); piakere/piaghere (lat. placere, ital. piacere); naskere (lat. nasci, ital. nascere); deke/deghe (lat. decem, ital. dieci); kentu (lat. centum, ital. cento); iskire (lat. scire, ital. sapere); connoskere (lat. cognoscere, ital. conoscere); pake/paghe (lat. pacem, ital. pace); bokkire ma anche okkire (lat. occidere, ital. uccidere);
boke/boghe ma anche oke/oghe (lat. vocem, ital. voce); kiterra/ghiterra (lat. cithara, da cui ital. chitarra, cetra); kito (lat. cito, ital. presto); kelu (lat. celum, ital. cielo); aghedu (lat. acetum, ital. aceto); iskidare (lat. excitare, ital. svegliare) and many others ....
@@tomasinaaddis6559 emmo bi sunt tantos faeddos in sardu cun sa retentzione de sonos sincheros latinos chi non esistant pius in sas atteras limbas romanigas
@@deoirdanandrei1512 Veru/beru este!
I love this channel, I'm an Albanian myself and i am fascinated by Languages and lately by Latin too. Lately i noticed how much
Latin words i subconsciously used in my language without really thinking of it. The Albanian language itself is very very old and rich, but many words are forgotten and replaced by Latin ones. Out of 10 words of today's Albanian, 5 or 6 are solid Latin, for example:
Ështe from Est= It is
Dërgoj from Dirigo= Send
Herë from Hora= Time (one more time)
Pëllumb from Palumbus= Bird
Popull from Populus=People
Rrugë from Ruga= Road or path
Shigjetar from Sagittarius= Bowman
Qiell from Caelum= Sky
Shpatull from Spatula= Shoulder
Shtrat from Stratum= Bed
Paqe from Pax= Peace
Peshk from Piscis= Fish
E Martë from Dies Martis= Tuesday
E Mërkurë from Dies Mercurii= Thursday
Etc
Thanks! I’m glad you like the channel
@@polyMATHY_Luke Yes it's amazing! Keep up the good work! + 1 more subscriber!
Brazilian Portuguese native here, that learned some Latin with Nonna classes:
It’s cool when you mention the differences between ecclesiastic Latin and Classical Latin. Growing up in Brazil, my grandma (daughter of an Italian immigrant), had Latin, French and English classes in school back in the 30s (she was born in 1929, and passed away last year, 2021). Ok, she couldn’t speak any of these languages fluently, but she could communicate a little in French, she wouldn’t starve in an English speaking place, and Latin, back then, was taught more for religious reasons (Catholic Church masses were in Latin until the 60s, if my memory doesn’t fail). And that’s how I learned a little of Latin when I was a kid, with her, and it mostly Catholic Latin. There was one single church in my hometown (Curitiba, Brazil) that had some masses in latin. I don’t know if they still doing that, I live in San Francisco, USA, but I no longer even consider myself a Catholic probably since I was 15, so it’s been almost 15 years since I last been to that church. I remember going to these masses, and I could keep up with the priest and understand most of what he was saying. Of course, I had my grandma teaching me a lot the basis, and she had a book in Latin with all the masses throughout the year. I’d get this book and read a lot of what the priest was saying, and that helped a lot to understand, since Portuguese-Latin similarities become even more obvious when the language is written. By the way, grandma could not speak fluent Latin, but she could teach me a lot, she would always lend me her books in Latin and let me explore.
Still, I remember how she taught me to pronounce “C” in Latin, which was C is pronounced in “Ciao” in Italian. I remember, classic example, at “Our Father”, she would say the beginning “Pater Noster qui es in Caelis” pronounced like “Pater Noster kee (instead “kwee”, trying to write vocalically in English haha) es in “Chelis” (Ch being pronounced like in “cheese” in English, and the “e” pronounced like “é” in Portuguese, and I can’t find that sound in English). Basically, her pronunciation was very ecclesiastic.
The Metatron gave you a shout out on his channel. Your video is great.
Thanks! We love Metatron
Fascinating as always! I love these phonological videos!
Excelente teaching Sr
I am a portuguese native speaker. Now I am learning italian and romanian simutaneously and your videos help me to cope with that suicidal strategy i've made for myself. You're a great linguist and I admire the ability you have. Hope some day I have a small percentage of it. Cheers from Brazil!
Me encanta tus diferentes personajes que simpático Haha tú fanatica favorita por aquí😉
Gracias amiga 😃
Great content! I love these videos.
¡Y me encanta Linguriosa también! Divertida e informativa, ya estoy suscrito desde hace un tiempo 👍.
Vale! You could do a video about roman legion weapons and their names like for example the gladius sword the pugio etc. With your knowledge in latin this can be pretty cool for many ancient rome enthusiasts. You can even include the names of their armor and such. Anyways great video bro!
Luke, your channel is a “whole vibe,” as the kids say these days 😌🤣
Do the kids say that? Thanks so much!
yes luke do a video on why c and g sound the way they do in portuguese, spanish and french! that would be awesome!!
Interesting video! Learned some details that are not in my syllabus, but I more or less knew what you said (thanks to all the diachronic linguistics I have this semester). Also, I welcome any and all topics you deem interesting enough to talk about.
Thanks for the comment! Much more to come that I think you'll like.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Looking forward to it! I tend to skip the longer videos for now because I have a bachelor's thesis to write, but I might binge during the summer. Unfortunately, Latin pronunciation won't help me much in my analysis of Augustinian arguments xD.
Hey Luke, interestingly these sound changes from k to ch and s can also be found in Dravidian languages.
Linguists also consider the velar "k" sounds were pronounced in ancient Dravidian languages. Many modern Dravidian languages like Telugu, Tamizh, Malayalam pronounce it as "ch", where Kannada also a Dravidian language pronounced as "k" and "g". And also interestingly many c and s changes have occurred due to front vowels in between them. For example the Dravidian word for hand in all languages is "kai" or "kay", but the Dravidian word for "do" differs with Kannada and other Dravidian languages. In Tamizh it is "cheyi" and in Telugu it is "chēsi". But in Kannada it is "gēydu" with velar g. We can find enormous example like these. In Tamil, the word for red is "sevempu" but in Kannada it is "kempu". In Tamil the word for small or tiny is "Chiru", but in Kannada it is "Kiru". So here Kannada retains the original Dravidian "k" sounds as like sardinian in romance languages.
Very interresting! thanks a lot!
Thanks for being here!
These sounds also exist in some modern Greek dialects such as my native Cypriot, Cretan and South Italian
The impressions are absolutely killing me 😂😂😂
Another excellent video! Of course you should do a video about the sound of these letters in french, spanish, portuguese!
Then I will! Thanks!
after more than 10 years finally i know the answer to this. thanks for the very in depth explanation.
My pleasure!
CA, GA velar, CE, GE palatal, but still hard, anyway the first step towards Italian-type palatalization.
You mean in Modern Greek?
@@polyMATHY_Luke No, I was referring to Latin of course. What I meant to point out was that Latin CE, GE was SLIGHTLY palatal, nothing like the sound of Spanish QUE, GUE. Full palatalization in Modern Greek occurs only in the Cretan varsion In the rest of the country it is slightly palatal, never velar. A similar phenomenon occurs in German with front vowel+CH, which tends towards SCH, and back vowel+CH, which is always velar.
@@georgiosmalfas8824 Latin CE GE certainly became palatalized like Greek κι κε but this was probably not yet the case during the classical period since Sardinian has fully velar [k] in this position (like Spanish 'qui que')
In an inscription from the claustrum of the Basilica di San Paolo fuori le Mura at Rome: "MARQE (...) REQESQ[E] IN PACE" (note C in "pace")
Ah grazie, amico mio! Infatti parlerò proprio di questo in un prossimo video.
Excellent video as always, reminds me very much of the video from Metatron on the same topic. I still find the sound shift of C and G fascinating because it happens in so many languages as you mention. Sardinian's conservativism in this regard is fascinating.
It truly is fascinating! Thanks for watching and commenting.
Professional content as usual, Sir. I really apprechiate watching your videos with my monocle from my armchair, scratching my 19century mustache at the philosopher pose xD Seriously, love your videos Luke!!
Hey Luke, I just want to say respect and thanks a lot for what you are doing. I am neither learning latin nor ancient greek, but had them at school, hated them there (as a subject) and never learned anything because they were taught terribly (at least for me and 99% of the class).
Now I've seen you a couple of times appearing on different channels I regularly watch (ecolinguist or podcast italiano for example) and I am so amazed seeing how you are able to talk in latin, it's very cool (it was never like that at school, never seen a teacher "freely" talking to us in latin, just translating and grammar exercises) and every time I think what a fantastic teacher you are and that I would have learned so much more with you as a teacher haha. Now I find myself watching your videos every now and then (while in school I would have never expected to one day watch videos about latin pronunciation in my free time haha)
Anyways, I think it's fantastic what you are doing, I am sure you are helping a lot of people out there studying these languages or getting interested, great channels and cool videos!
Love these videos, Luke!
Thank you!
Great work Thank you Luke !
Thanks so much for watching! More like this to come.
You need more subs and views man
Thanks! That’s very kind
We need more British Luke. Like tons more.
Gotta say, your editing is getting super cool!
Haha thanks man! I really appreciate it.
I'm almost sure the palatalization of Ce and Ci in portuguese (probably occured in the same way to spanish) - from latin /ke/ to modern /se/ - went through a middle stage /tse/, similar to italian /tʃe/, what makes me think that this change happened in vulgar latin... so, same for ge and gi, that would be /dʒe/ and /dʒi/. Not sure, though, but it would explain a lot how soft C happened in western romance languages...
You got it!
You are a wind of knowledge 🌬️🌀🤯
I love the eGo-driven invention of the letter g
Haha thanks! Yes, good ol' Ruga! Thank goodness for him, otherwise we would be crateful instead of grateful and cood instead of good!
@@polyMATHY_Luke no no no ...too German Crrrateful , not much grace in the pronunciation😝
..I don't mind the cood . Anyway Cod bless him
Great video as always. I'd been wondering for some time why Latin used Q at all, being so similar to C. I was aware of the slight difference in pronunciation in Spanish and Italian, but didn't think it translated to to Latin in a similar way.
And yes, you should make a video about CE and CI pronunciations in Romance languages.
Thanks! In that case I will.
Lol it was in watching Metatron that iwas introduced to your channel 😄
Metatron is the best!
This reminds me of a story my grandpa used to tell me before he, well... "relinquerit animam", so to speak: imagine being a little kid in early 1930's Sicily, Arethusa's district of Syracuse to be exact. Your education mostly comes from the friars and monks that run the only school in town that your family could afford and you love being there, reading all sorts of literature and scientific texts. The monks heavily hammer on all forms of Greek and Latin, so you can easily read all the texts in the library. One day, they find you reading De Bello Gallico with an Ecclesiastic pronunciation, one of the monks gives you a slap on the back side of your head. "Caesar with the pronounciation of Saint Peter? Do it right, boy, you have to use the Classical in this case!"
Sometimes, things never change XD
What is weird for us Spanish speakers is how we isolated ourselves so much with c, j, g and x when it used to be very similar if not the same as any other Romance language
Brawissimo!
Gratie, Rapael! 😃
In Russia we are taught to pronounce latin "ce/cae" and "ci" as [tse] and [tsi], i.e. caesar is articulated as [tsezar] (in the modern Russian this historic title is pronounced the same way), dicere as [ditsere], etc.
In albanian qytet < lat. cīvitātem, qiqër < lat. cicer. These words must have entered early in proto-albanian considering the phonology.
also peshk from piscis :-)
Well, as you said... please make a video about the sound of C in the romance languages you mentioned! And if it could also include the intriguing story of the ch in french (as in château - castle - castelo or chat - cat - gato or Charles - Carlos - Carollus)
Great question!
Thanks for the great work! As a sardinian speaker I would point out a few things:
chentu, fachere, deche are pronounced with a ch=k in a number of town, but most sardinians pronounce it with a sound that is intermidiate beteween a k and a hard g, and sometimes even just as a hard g. Regarding, ghente, it may very well be true, but honestly I never heard it, it's either zente or genti with a soft g.
Yeah gente/zente seems to be a borrowing from Italian to Sardinian. A better example would be ghelu from Latin gelū as opposed to Italian gelo.
"Ghente" does not exist....is Zente in northern dialects or Genti in southern ones
@@riccardocollu8610 I didnt exclude right away because as you know there is a lot of variety in out language, so I thought that it may just be a variety onto which i had never stumbled upon; either way, even if it does actually exists somewhere, it is surely a minor variety compared to genti and zente
Non è vero, dipende. Nella variante nuorese è proprio una k dura: kelu, kena. La g è nel logudorese. Nella mia zone si parla il logudorese ma sono della provincia di nuoro e nella mia famiglia si parlano entrambe le varianti. Nel nuorese si dice (f)akere, la f spesso non si pronuncia. Da noi faghere.
Really interesting!! Gratias tibi :)
"It is natural for [ke] and [ge] to change into [ce] and [ʝe]."
Meanwhile, in the German language, people changing to pronunciation of "Chemie" [çeˈmiː] into [keˈmiː] because they find the [ç]-sound in front of i/e too difficult.
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Eccellente, amico!
A similar trend can be seen in words of Chinese origin - for example, the Chinese character 間 is pronounced 'gan' in Cantonese and Korean, but 'jian' in Mandarin. If I'm not mistaken, Mandarin pronunciation is generally divergent from Old Chinese, while Cantonese and Korean pronunciations are more conservative, so the development of the 'j' sound was a transformation from the hard 'g' sound
I believe that's also the case in Japanese 漢語 (voacbulary of Chinese origin)
@@neuvilpanindra2581 Yes it's pronounced "kan" in japanese like in 時間 (jikan, time)
間 is in Div. II in Middle Chinese, which is the language thought to have been ancestral to the Go-on and Kan-on strata of Sino-Japanese pronunciation. Linguists reconstruct the glide /r/ between the onset and nucleus. It is thought this glide has triggered palatalization during the transition between Middle Chinese and Mandarin. This means the Middle Chinese Div. II and III have merged in some contexts; in Cantonese, Div. II and I have merged in the onset, losing the glide, but the vowel in Div. I has rounded.
@@thkarape interesting, the same word is pronounced 'shigan' in Korean
My favourite example of bizzare linguistic traces is that people in the Kansai region of Japan recite the numbers 1-10 with the same cadence as Cantonese speakers.
Thank you
Thank you!
In Russian loan latin words with originally latin "c" promounced usually with "ц" ("ts") sound. E.g. "cyclop" is "циклоп" ("Tsiklop").
The funny thing is... it depends on time when (or most probably language where from) the latin word came to Russian. One of great example is word "Centaurus" which is "кентавр" ("Kentavr") when we talk about the mythical creatures BUT "Центавр" (Tsentavr) when we talk about the constellation.
Maybe "кентавр" was borrowed directly from Greek and "Центавр" (and other words with "ts") from the Ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation?
@@yum2735 Most probably.
I would love to see a video by you about the origin of Latin and Romans, where did they come from and so on.
In Croatian we have changes called sibilarization and palatalization where k, g, h change to c (as in tzatziki), z (as in zero), s (as in sun) or č (as in change), ž (as in genre), š (as in sheep) before e and i
L'imitazione di un Italiano all'inizio mi ha steso😂😂
Ahahah 🤪😅
I would call Albanian: a ”near-language-isolate”, though; because it is still, technically, an Indo-European language; and thus, it technically has relatives, albeit distant ones; unlike *_”TRUE”_* language isolates, like Korean (if you don’t consider the various dialects, as separate languages), and Purépecha 🇦🇱.
Oh!!! So that's why even in english, after 'Q' is always followed by 'U' and never any other vowels. Like QUeen, QUeue, QUick etc.
Right! It was cw in Old English. The qu convention was adopted from Latin.
This clarifies everything, thanks! Don't think I'm like that pompous Oxbridge don, I think Italian-style pronunciations sounds much better, too, but [k] is easier in terms of consistency.
Thanks for watching! This is the next video for you ruclips.net/video/XeqTuPZv9as/видео.html
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks, I'll be sure to watch it. I just watched your video on w/v and you made a lot of good points. BTW, as you undoubtedly know, in German, the letters c and z (invervocalic or at the beginning of a word) are usually pronounced ts, like Cäsar = [tsézar] -> tsar, and I believe Germans usually pronounce the letter c as [ts] in Latin, too. Do think that could be historically justifiable? (not to be prescriptive or anything).
maybe you can consider making a video regarding the similarities between german and latin: there are a lot of latin stuff in german... some words are the same as latin and some letters has the same sound (like q very similar to k, y said almost like an u, the letter g as 'ge'...etc)
Doesn't absence of U contributed a lot to preservation of Q? Because before introduction of U, when V used both for U and V, difference between Q and C helps people to read (compare CVIVS/QVIVS).
That's a great point. If we deleted q but kept v in the alphabet for the /w/ sound, then cv would be a perfectly fine digraph in place of qu. But I do like that qu is different frow /kw/ since it's only one consonant sound, not two.
Quintilian explicitly stated that C has the same sound as Q and K. He also says that K is superflueous.
@LegoGuy87 Yeah you're right!
LOL those impressions were amazing. Also really fascinating video as always.
Though, one can not help but ask, is that third episode of Barbarians' Latin still in the works, or has it been cancelled? I think you told me on Patreon that it was likely to come out by the end of March :D
Thanks! Yes, I have had a lot of projects lately, sorry for the long, long delay. The Ancient Greek in Action series has been a major focus since it's important for my private students. But I *will* do every episode of Barbarians. How could I not? 😃 Thanks so much for being a fan.
Thanks Luke👍
9:17 like in the arabic qaf ق
7:34
It would be fantastic a video about this.
In Breton, Latin loans with "c" in the initial keep the "k" sound:
cena --> koen / koan (diner)
cera --> koer / koar (wax)
(The long "e" of Latin was first diphthonged into /we/, which later became /wa/, except in the southwestern third which has retained the diphthong /we/ to this day.)
civitate --> keoded
cella --> kell
circulus --> kelc'h
cerasum --> kerez (cherry)
In Old English, the combination of the front vowel(s) with c is pronounced as ch (for example: ic (the first person singular pronoun I) - pronounced like "each")
And for g it made a y sound (for example: Hunig (honey) - Hooney
Indeed! But not in all dialects of Old English, only half. For example, the two varieties of Old English give us “church” and the doublet “kirk.”
Please we need a lesson on how to decipher Latin inscriptions 🙏🏻💖
1:11 I respectfully disagree, mostly perhaps because I am a snob who prefers Classical Pronunciation, mostly due to your videos which have taught me so much
Haha sure! You use whatever pronunciation you desire. Obviously I also prefer to speak that way in my own life, but I certainly don't want to make those who prefer Ecclesiastical pronunciation feel unwelcome. I think it's mostly like UK vs US pronunciation standards that non-Anglophones choose when growing up. Thanks for the comment, amīce!
@@polyMATHY_Luke I feel so glad to see your answer here, Luke. My girlfriend and I have been watching your content since October and we like it so much. Additionally, I've applied what I've learned with you (Latin Language) to approach her family and earn their trust by speaking Latin while talking about religion, of which I am no follower, but I enjoy its content.
@@polyMATHY_Luke gratias multas, amice. Salvéte apud México
Wow I thought of this on my known 7 months ago. U in g γ, T to δ, and in B
Also q makes hard e. g. Equus, Ηίqvoς, Ηίππος
Quinque πέμπε, aeolian πέντε.
Great video
In sorani kurdish, this same palatalization occurs. Some dialects pronouns ce or ge as che (or a palatal c) and je. I pronounce it as the original form as it is normal in our dialect
Also central Friulian retained the transitional sounds /c/ and /ɟ/, written as "cj" and "gj". See cjan (dog), cjase (house), gjat (cat), gjonde (joy).
All Slavic languages had three palatalization, and Kashubian (minority language used in the North of Polnd) had also the fourth one. For example the capital of Ukraine in Kashubian is Czijów (/tʃijof/) ;)
That’s awesome!
It is interesting to me that Arabic represented the Greek Kappa with the ق or /q/ sound in borrowed words. It shows you how different these sounds to the regular k or hard c in English since Arabic could have used that but didn't.
the reason is that kaf was, at the time, aspirated, and more of a fit for greek χ, this is usual in semitic languages. the emphatic consonants were used for the greek unaspirates, the plain semitic consonants were used for the greek aspirates.