1:39 ⌐_⌐ and both squares had a visible gap at the bottom (you can even see light from behind them through the gap at 1:47 quite clearly) because they contacted the top of the guide fence first, telling me that the fence is effectively canted inward toward your blade. It may well not effect your work as you alluded to, but the angle block is actually correct in those instances because the fence is actually slightly leaning inward from 90 degrees. 2:21 So, you go to the effort of squaring the fence to the table, the angle block now reads 90 degrees exactly, and surprisingly enough your square is also flush to both surfaces. I'm not going to say digital angle gauges are infallible, anything that is man made inherently includes man's limitations, but I think your video actually demonstrated that the gauges are plenty accurate and if anything helped you to identify that while your squares are indeed square, the fence was not square to the table, and once it was then all the devices started agreeing.
I absolutely agree with your observation. From my perspective I saw the same thing, and I think you're right that when he set the table fence to 90 degrees on the angle gauge, the square matched up flush to the fence, which just confirms the accuracy of the angle gauge.
i see a gap between both squares and the fence......1:47 in the video shows it really well. So the digital gauge is pretty accurate when it says your fence is at 89.5 degrees.
Yes me too, the digital was accurate and his square was out! He pushed the blade of the square against the fence lifting the base off the table at one end & pronounced the digital gauge as being out, but not his square! 😂😂 Crap happens- especially when your filming unfortunately! Heck timber moves between summer & winter even after its kiln dried down to equilibrium moisture content, & how much the same species sawn from the same log varies, with whether it’s radial grain or tangential grain! & This guy is worried about + or - 0.2 of a degree? What are you building a timber space shuttle? 😂😂😂 As my old man would say, “we ain’t building Omega watches, sunshine!” 😂😂
Great information. Since I started using a Starret square to calibrate all the equipment in my shop, my glue ups have been excellent. Thank you for posting.
You do have to spend some time setting the saw up... blade, fence, etc. But once done, the saw is great. Fairly compact which is Nice ruclips.net/user/postUgkxXh-4_3-ZT1fFWP91ZV7iVqzElr0lEb-a I did get an Incra Miter Gauge which takes some setup as well. The stock miter gauge can be adjusted in the miter slot with a little painter's tape... this tightens up the side to side play a lot.
As an Asian style woodworking hobbyist, I usually use the mortise-tenon matching method instead of measure it them separately. Since in most of the time, my tools are not deadly precise. For example when joining two boards, I clam two pieces together and hand plane the gluing sides into one surface instead of depending on deadly 90 degree jointer to make two perfect 90 degree surfaces separately. Besides, no matter how precise wood is milled, they will move very soon. In most of my working situations, flatting ,matching, stabilizing and smoothing can be achieved with a +-0.2 degree gauge. I also use your method to check my digital angle gauge. Surprisingly, it is quite precise. It shows 90 same as my woodpecker square.
I have adjusted my lifestyle to accept a 0.2° error. There's always gonna be fussy people in the world, and Starrett will be forever grateful for their continued patronage.
@@shirothehero0609 Until you don't do something where it's required. Last year because of Covid I started to make some stuffs with wood and hungarian zithers. When I had shown one of my zithers to a luthier he mentioned about some of my joints is great for a furniture but it have to be better for a musical instrument.
@@saxus Wood is never going to maintain it's dimensions even from one minute to the next due to temperature and humidity. It also compresses, making it impossible to get a precise reading. For luthier work, you do need higher precision than furniture making, but the tolerance is still way below what's acceptable for even low precision machining.
I bought the Klein digital level (the newer model). My Klein digital level has been very accurate, however if I use it to calibrate my bevel angle on my 12" Ridgid miter saw (blade : saw table) it matters where and which side of the blade you attach the level to using the magnets on the level. Always attach your dig level as close to the center of the blade as possible. The weight of the level makes the blade tilt slightly if you put it near the edge of the blade. If you keep it very close to the center the blade won't move tilt due to the weight of the level. On my saw if I attach it to the right side of the blade it causes the blade to tilt no matter where I attach it and I get a bad reading. If I attach it to the left side of the blade and near the center as possible, I get a steady reading and then I use the set screw to fine tune my bevel to 0.0. If I attach the level to the left side of the blade after I get it locked down, it will read 0.0 but if I attach it to the right side of the blade, for some reason the blade can tilt from the weight of the level and it will read 0.1-0.2 - no matter where I put the level so you just have to figure out where the steady spot is on your blade.
Home Depot squares are perfectly fine for 99% of woodwork needs. Pick out a square, stick it on a piece of plywood, draw a line, flip the square, draw another line next to the first. If those two lines track each other, it's good enough for woodwork. If not, pick out a different square. Those hundred dollar squares are for machinists who are milling precision parts. Save your money and buy that power tool you've been salivating for.
Exactly . I use mitutoyo, starret and b&s measurement tools with metalworking and the precision that gets you is nowhere close to what I need for woodworking. HD squares are fine for my wood - at least the type I do...
Rich Sobocinski I look forward to the day when I can blame a tool that is off by minute amounts for the mistakes in my projects. Right now I am thrilled when can make a drawer that doesn't bind.
I can get better accuracy using a square and my eye than the $100 johnson gauge i got. Honestly probably faster to. These gauges seem to have a really shitty lag time or only register movements of .2/3 of a degree or more
With woodworking these gauges are fine for me, I do a three check with it if I was really worried. As for 90 and 45, As I have some many squares around the shop I do find them easier to set up the angle.
Eye opener! I have two (2) of these and rely on them completely for setting angles on my TS blade and jointer fence (primarily). Going to cross check my 90's w/ my Woopecker 1281. Thanks for bring this to our attention!
Must have lucked out and got a good one. Have used mine many times in the past year with no problems. Always double check known angle blocks and still right on.
Personally I have two Digital Angle gauges (different brands) and put then on and I calibrate my fence (or blade what ever I am working on) until both agree or put the error to the minimum, that is been working for me, Thanks for the Video very educative.
I’ve seen some pretty nice stuff made a hundred years ago, and there’s no way they had the accuracy of either. I think the important thing is to understand the error and how to compensate for it. BTW, semi new subscriber, enjoying the videos and your work.
Some of the old optical based methods from a hundred years ago rival some of the new laser technologies. Optical autocollimators are used in measuring the surface flatness of surface plates down to 5 millionths (a quarter arc second). They did amazing stuff with remarkable precision, a hundred years ago they just used different tools.
They absolutely had that accuracy 100 years ago. Check out gauge blocks, invented in the 1890s (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_block). Accurate to within a millionth of a centimetre. Lots of 80-100 year old machinist's tools are also still in use, and are and were easily accurate to 100 microns.
Probably you should learn the old techniques first. In the past you had a lot of specialized cuting, planing, marking and measuring tools, techniques which can provide similar precision. In old time, lot of woodworkers didn't buyed they tools, they made it, because had the knowledge to make a good square. Actually you have to know that even today to know how to check it is it still in square or not. Now a lot of things was replaced by fancy machines and buyed tools. Not because everything is more accurate but productivity.
I've heard the Wixey can have accuracy issues, so I got a Beall Tiltbox, which claims to be more accurate. Alas, I haven't used it much, but the few times I have, it seems to do pretty good. I also recently acquired a cheap set of WEN angle blocks, which I haven't had a chance to use, but those are another alternative to the digital gages/precision squares. My main reason for wanting these is to be able to cut oddball angles for things like stave construction or segmented turning.
I wished I had the time mess about making vids but I find my day is taking up making things, tools everywhere and the shop aways needs cleaning 😂 Very well put together video ill take a look at your other stuff, thanks
The Starrette square I use is fantastic. I coughed up the few extra dollars after learning the hard way about cheap squares. On some projects when 88.6 degrees is good enough, I use the cheap box store squares, but when I really need accuracy, I can vouch for Starrette,
I bought the $100 johnson gauge. It will tell me 90° and when i bump the saw to jostle it it will come back to 89.8. At 45° ive found i can get better precision using a speed square and my eye than using the gauge
Feel free. It works with any number of boards. I found putting an x on alternating board faces then always being able to see the x as i joint worked well. The only down side i ever found was when grain just would not cooperate and tearout would occur. Not a common problem but given desired face and end grain orientation it can throw an annoying wrench in the gears.
Thanks for doing this video. I've been thinking about a similar video, so it's nice to have someone else jump first, to see what people complain about. I learned at least a couple of things, which I'm sure you already know, and I'd be curious what other things you learned from the comments, that make you wish you'd done something differently? 1) Make sure to show and explain zeroing a digital gauge. I suspect you're kicking yourself over this one, but what can you do? Another time I wish we could edit YT videos. 2) Make it clearer up front that not everyone needs it this exact all the time, although I think if you *can* be exact, why not? But still, it would eliminate some of the negative comments. 3) One of the reasons I may not do this type of video is people want a comparison to other devices, and how much money do I really want to spend on a video like this? You probably feel the same way. 4) If there's a way to demonstrate what that difference actually equates to, as far as real life is concerned, that would be helpful. I wonder if cutting some wood then placing it against a perfectly 90-degree fence would have enough of a gap to show up on video? Sorry for the ramblings, I'm just thinking out loud about whether this is a subject I want to address or not. I'm not sure I want to face the trolls over this subject, even if the points are valid. Keep up the good work!
Yeah, I think you make a lot of good points. I was amazed that so many people insist it’s based off of “level” and I figured common sense would realize that’s not the case. I also meant to demonstrate a glue up with several boards just slightly off. So if you do it, I think that would help people. I don’t think you’ll eliminate all the negativity, because so many people are just stuck in their ways.
Yeah, well, no, fine!? (Warning! This comment contains rambling personal views which may offend sensitive woodworkers) I bought a somewhat similar digital angle guage and eventually donated it to the local animal shelter because it was dang difficult to read. Firstly because it the one I bought didn't have a back-lit display. I literally had to use a flashlight to read it. Secondly because the display shows (for example) 95° as well as 85° as 85° i.e there is no indication from reading the numbers whether you have moved beyond vertical or still have to get there. There is a separate place on the display that you have to look at for that. And who needs that addled aggravation with both hands occupied with setting whatever you want to set while feverishly clutching a flashlight between your front teeth. But those are design issues that can be resolved by being careful what you buy. I tested that one for consistency by placing a pie dish with a ½" of water in the freezer overnight and using the resultant ice surface as a "perfect" flat. Rotating the device around its vertical axis and reading it from different angles gave a surprising degree of consistency - in fact it showed no errors at all. In the meantime I had installed an "inclimometer" app on my smartphone and made a steady bracket to hold it in. I tested it the same way and got the same results (and for free). No waiting for delivery and no shipping costs either. So as to the accuracy of such devices, my observation is that results in using them will more likely arise from the skill of the user than from the device itself. Having said all that, to get to the question of how much accuracy does one need in woodworking? My answer is "as much as your particular project needs". If you are making a sawhorse the a degree or two either way isn't going to make much difference to how it works. But making wooden gears for a clock is another thing altogether. I don't think that the topic lends itself to an "absolutistic" approach. This philosophy should not become an excuse for sloppy work. My approach is to aim for as perfect a finish as I can get every time and to use every cut I make as an opportunity to do better.
@@EscapeMCP You are most welcome. You should experiment a bit. Depending on the depth of the water, the shape of the dish and other factors, you can get that the ice bulges up in the middle. I got around that by adding another 5mm of water on top of the ice and letting that freeze. Have fun...
@@EscapeMCP Hi, I forgot to mention that you need to calibrate your inclimometer / level guage without moving the "ice floe" from the freezer as well as taking care not to disturb its position in any way while working on it in any way. Why I only thought about adding this this morning is a mystery.
Nice demonstration. I've never really thought about getting one of these gimmicy things always used a try square or pertractor on a trial piece first. Like you say buy good quality tools they'll last you a lifetime. Check your squares against each other on the machine table.I'm not a big fan of the sliding rule type for checking accuracy seen too many inaccurate ones even the good quality makes.
Liked the digital angle gauge video, but what I really liked was the case you had all your measuring tools in , mine will soon have a nice home like yours . And yes .2 degrees + / - is a lot when its so easy to be right on.
@@BlacktailStudio ruclips.net/video/L4bI-uNqblo/видео.html&lc=z22wfbzhzoqjxhymyacdp43a2ew11yy430bylvgx3y5w03c010c.1551187241961836 check out guyswoodshop
Good video. Regarding if it's good enough, it depends on who you are and what you're making. Some people may not care about imperfect glue lines with the thought that they are going to sand and or plane it anyway. For things that may compound on themselves (like picture frames do) a .2 error would be very noticeable. I don't own one of these so I can't say too much. I do own some woodpecker squares and have found them to be very accurate.
Yeah, I think I didn’t clarify that enough in the video. One edge of a table being off by .2 isn’t a big deal. But 10 boards glued up (or a picture frame) is where it’s quite noticeable. Well said!
once and for all there is no reason to buy a $90 square from woodpecker or starret for that matter. I have witnessed a lot of cases of the woodpecker squares being out. This is an example of prestige pricing like I have never seen. Go get yourself a machinist square for $20 if you want something accurate and be done with it. Want accurate measuring go get anything for metal working (what starret is known for) and they will be more than accurate enough for any woodworking and at a 10th of the cost...
how do you find an accurate machinist square for $20? The ones I've seen on amazon for that price all have a number reviews saying they're out of square.
Hmm, as a retired scientist/engineer we were always taught to know -and use- your measurements appropriately; and this includes the math of using them. So ... you make a good point here. I would want precision in making fine furniture, esp. glue joints for sure. As my father always said People may no see everything but they will notice so do your best and pay attention to the details. Question: Do you calibrate your $500 squares often ? (butt 2 together or flip one against itself?) Take care🙏 -Mike p.s. I'm on a quest to enter your 1 Million Subscriber giveaway. hehe p.p.s I saw this vid and having just bought a used 10" contractor saw set up as a 4' cabinet saw I was cosidering a digital angle gauge ... a woodturner doesn't need too great a precision in a table saw !!
I stopped using these tilt boxes years ago but for a completely different reason. I make a lot of stave builds and out of habit these don’t provide me with a hundredths place read out. You can imagine that if I’m trying to complete 360* then the readout being off even by a hundredths off it’ll throw the circle off. Then I realized years ago that it’s not so much the box, but a lot of the times it can be pitch on the blade, also the way the blade travels vertically. A lot of saws use a swing motion where the lift mechanism pivots on the front of the saw and that can have a huge impact. HOWEVER! These are great to get quick reference guides like you mentioned, especially if the angle doesn’t have to be exactly precise. If you’re looking to get precise angles for crazy glue-ups just use a good ole fashion protractor or an angle finder that can be used measuring off of the cast iron and not the blade, after all - you’re angle won’t matter at all if 0* or 90* isn’t relative to the surface you’re passing your boards through.
Hmmm arithmetical slight of hand? Deliberate or just not thinking straight? If the accuracy of the digital scale is +/- 0.2 and for example reads spot on 90 then the reality, at worst, is that is EITHER 89.8 or 90.2 not both!!! so is is not 0.5 of a degree out, It is .02 at worse. And to, nit pick, even if your logic were true 0 .2 + 0.2 is 0.4 not the “half a degree out” that you sate. You have weakened your case by exaggeration..... Further like others who have commented can you really eyeball .02 of a gap using your set square. On pause I believe I can see a light gap when you rest your 100% accurate square against the fence... In any case I have never trusted either type of device entirely and suggest you consider the following test:- Set your fence using your best set square and make a couple of cuts on a sample of wood from a current project (nothing special make this a test of the real world of wood work). Then deliberately unset the fence and re-set it it using the digital scale and make another couple of test cuts on the same type of material. Now ask another person to check the angles..... I wonder what they will find .........? Further leave the samples a week under normal workshop/household conditions and check them again. ..... How much would you wager on the readings all being the same as before. It is the result in the piece of wood we cut that is the real criterion here. And there are more variables in blades, fence to blade parallel measurements, and above all in the natural variability in the behaviour of wood, than worrying about 0.2 of a degree. BTW Still enjoyed the video and it did make me think about what I was measuring.
My final calibration is always done by actually cutting wood and measuring the angle. I find that even the best attempt to use a square does not give me a perfect 90. It usually takes me about 10 cuts to get my saws perfect but from then on I don't need to mess with it.
I've used these, like you said for arbitrary angles and they work well. More recently though I've used them to set up my band saw. It did just fine. But I agree wouldnt use one of these to set the presets on a table saw or jointer.
Yeah I hear a lot of good things a about digital gauges. The jury is still out. I think I might try my first project with digital and if I don't get the results I want then I'll try the method shown in the video
I made a cell phone holder that hangs perfectly flat on one side of my table saw blade, and downloaded a free leveling app. So far I've had zero issues with any angle of miter I cut while using this set up. All from scrap wood, and a free app.
I appreciate your video. As a full time woodworker my response is it depends on the build (as you pointed out). There are times where absolute precision is a must- and times where there is a small degree of give. Of course a build is either square or not square. No such thing as “sorta “ square :-)
I've seen Starrett squares that are more than .2 off from one to another , never seen woodpecker squares to be able to compare one against another . where i used to work in the aerospace industry we had to have our tools calibrated every 30 days or sooner if they were bumped or dropped . they used a Faro arm and a flattened granite slab to check for out of square and would only approve them for use if they were +/- .0001 within the length of the square checked . if they didn't meet specs then they went back to Starrett for them to redo . Digital ones were only allowed to be used to check travel on movable parts with greater tolerances allowed .
Thanks for your comments about digital gauge mediocre accuracy. I’ve been annoyed with them as I require 90 degree accuracy for most of my work and find that I am daily checking my table saw for 90 degrees. I thought these digital gauges would make life easier ( I’ve tried 3 different brands) but they just frustrate the heck out of me instead. I thought it was me and learned that inexpensive ones just can’t deliver
I don't need the check my table saw blade every day. Even when I do it, it is still at 90⁰ after hundreds of cuts. That's because the table saw quality matters too. If you need to check it up every day (and make adjustments), you may very well need to replace some parts on your table saw or buy a good quality one. I own a good quality Grizzly hybrid table saw and never had that issue. Even my 10-year old 10" Craftsman job site table saw keeps its settings after extensive use.
Cremona said it well last year, it depends on the tolerances each person is fine with. If you cant see it in the finished product than its good enough (for me at least)
Digital inclinometers require a quality reference that you zero to for both zero and 90. Without a quality reference to zero to your always going to be off more than the expected uncertainty in the measurement. I feel it's worth it the spend more for a digital inclinometer that has less uncertainty. I also agree that you should always use a trusted quality square when squaring a fence or a blade. The uncertainty in a quality square is a tiny fraction of a degree, off the top of my head it's something like +-0.001 or basically the machining tolerance.
I have that Wixey angle finder and use it when I need a 45 or something in between on the table saw. I find it to be plenty accurate enough for me. The reality is that it's probably never really going to add up to .5 (.4?) off. More likely it will be somewhere between dead on accurate to .1 or .2 off. Let's not forget that wood moves too right? I mean at some point you have to go with the flow a bit and admit that accurate enough is accurate enough when we are working with a material like wood. I'm sure I can introduce .1 of angle (and more) by simply pushing too hard on one side or the other as I feed the saw anyway! Hell, when I first got my Starrett it was completely square but I tested it a couple months later only to find out it was no longer in square and needed adjustments. I've done a ton of miters on the table saw and used the Wixey to get my 45 and the joints have always come together great. Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe the error is too small to make a meaningful difference when all other things are considered.
There are a number of things that can affect squareness of a jointer fence or table saw blade. First of all, a jointer fence (or table) might not be perfectly flat, so squareness would vary depending upon where you check it. Secondly, some people, like myself, can't see well enough to judge when the square is perfectly aligned with the fence or a blade. A blade could also not be true. I have found my Wixey digital gage to be at least as accurate as my eyeball and square setting ability. They are a bit difficult to use for adjusting, as it is quite a chore to get the adjustment right on the number you want. The only real way to know if your equipment is adjusted correctly is to make some cuts and see how they fit.
Totally fair! Sounds like some people have better digital gauges than me. Cause mine is a noticeable turn of the handwheel off of my squares. I like your point about making the cuts to find out where square really is though.
I think the takeaway is to do a couple a measurements and take the average, if you need that level of accuracy, but + or - 0.2 actually seems really precise for a tool that cheap and user friendly.
What about the analog gauges that use a dial and gravity to hold the needle steady as the magnetic base rotates? Are these any better? I believe they are called magnetic angle indicators.
I have the same wixi gauge and use it all the time for 45 and returning back to 90 and also returning back from a dado stack. Several times you didn’t zero the gauge. And also don’t forget the gauge is just a fancy level so even when you zero it if your table or jointer isn’t perfectly level it may show on the wixi.
I look at what I'm doing in the shop. Most of what I do is butt joints and simple 90s that can be half a degree off. I'm not making picture frames yet. I can still respect someone who drops 500 bucks for making sure they're getting the results that they want. Especially if you're doing this daily or weekly.
I think your statement is very true. For the home guy you don't NEED hyper accuracy. But if its your profession and you need repeatability and longevity then spend the money on the best tools out there. I use a $300 angle grinder and home which most people think is excessive. But at work we use a $2500 grinder 😳
For digital gauges to work, the tool has to be perfectly level from the floor up. If your tool is on a angle at the floor, the angle will be off greatly when finding the square for a fence
I have this gauge as well, but I don't think the accuracy (at least on mine) is really there. I found on a few measurements that my gauge was over a full degree off. I usually set my blade with the gauge and then verify the angle with an angle finder if the angle is really critical.
A high quality square is always nice. That is reason enough to buy one. You may not need it every time, but when it has to be right you need the right tool
Without reading all the comments did any one mention something my dad called reverse jointing. Basically if you have three boards to glue up the two outside boards you joint board face away from jointer fence the middle board joint bothh edges board face to jointer fence. Extrapolate for as many boards as you are gluing. This method eleminates or rather absorbs any error in your set up. This was just something i always took for granted most folks knew. Hope this is helpful. Enjoy the work
I would do it as you as well, but even squares made out of metal with high prices have a tolerance, just like the digital meter. I used to work with navy metcal and we checked for calibration of squares and flat guides that were made out of metal or solid surface or stone. Those items had to be checked on a regular basis, the cal cycle depended on the type, manufacturer and was based on historical data, so nothing is in cal one time and never needs checked again and everything comes with tolerances. Tight tolerance means more money so its efficient to determine how much you need or how much variance your project can tolerate. I would ask, if your cheap square is always matching your expensive square, then why did you purchase it?...and as others noted, it appears like there were some light showing through the squares and then we must ask, are our eyes calibrated LOL
Is the gauge zeroed on the table or on true level? It seems like .5 degrees is a bit much to chalk up to an inaccurate gauge? I have a digital gauge similar to this and it has proven to be pretty darn accurate!
This comment might bump the algorithm a bit. I was taught to use the edge of the blade on my square instead the of flat part of the blade. Turning the square at a slight angle gives you a finer line to visually inspect better.
Inexpensive and very accurate solution: For my table saw, to set 90 deg, you don’t need either expensive squares or electronic gauges. I use 2 pieces of hardboard that are laminated to 3 layers thick to provide dimensional stability. They are dimensioned 14” x the max cutting height of my blade (on an old 10” Unisaw). Importantly, mark them to keep track of the orientation of each. Using your bevel gauge, run them through the saw to just lightly trim one end at full blade height. Key point here is to gang cut them. The test of square is to then place each piece with the cut ends on a clean, flat surface, and orient them with the edges that were down on the table saw are against each other. This doubles the error. Backlight it. If there is a gap at the top, you need to move your blade counterclockwise, and vice-versa. You can get it within a couple of thousands of an inch over the length of the pieces which is very good for precision woodworking. Replace the boards when they eventually get down to about 12” long. .... for the jointer, square really doesn’t matter if you run your project boards through such that you have the top face of one board against the jointer fence and the top face of the other is away. The angle inaccuracy cancels out on the glueup. You do, however, need to keep track of what piece was oriented which way. That being said, I do keep mine as close to square as I can get! .... For 45 deg on the table saw, you can do something similar and check against a good square to see how close you are to making 90 deg with the cut faces against each other. That’s essentially a test cut which you should do anyway. .... BTW, I do have Starrett squares (12” and 6”) as well as an electronic gauge and I totally agree with your comments!!!
While that works pretty well, it is an overkill method. That's why people invented and created tools and devices to ease the work and still achieve great results. There are multiple ways to achieve the same result, some ways are easier than others, some are more accurate, some are just too complicate.
I don't own a digital gauge. Always have used my Sterret square, but I worked in a tool room so I'm anal about woodworking. That also makes me slow as mud.☹
Kinda makes you wonder how anybody made perfectly square projects before the advent of digital gauges? Wait! They didn’t, it is wood for crying out loud. Still, 89.800 degrees is a good start. Yes, a $90.00 square is perfect and I have referenced my magnetic digital gauge off the square directly and 8 out of 10 times they agree perfectly. The other 2 times it may be 89.9 or 90.1. Another reason I try not to tilt my blade ever.
@@BlacktailStudio I've got a 5" since bar that I haven't used while wood working😁. But I have used my 10" height set. It's vernier scale. Use it so I don't forget how to read a vernier scale.
For what I do, the digital is fine. It repeats, or it has repeated when I thought to check it after setup. So what’s your suggestion for say 22.5 or 45 deg?
I just bought a digital gage (S & F) I checked my table saw, that I had set with my machinist's square it came out to 90 degrees I then wanted a few minutes and measured again 90 degrees. I will admit that if I just wanted 90 degrees it is quicker to use a quality square. But what if you want 60 degrees or 74 degrees?
Don’t do it for a living anymore, but square is square. Just out of square doesn’t count as square in my book. If it’s not going to help me turn out the best product possible or ends up making things more difficult and frustrating to complete, I don’t want it around. The exception you mention was a valid one.
A couple things that have seen addressed. One is quality of saws. How true is a saws arbor. If your using a portable job sight type saw that’s not as accurate as a new top of the line cabinet saw then there can be quite a bit of difference in tolerance. Also blades, have you spun the blade 180 degrees and see if the is any change. How old is the blade, has it gotten hot from pushing hardwood through to fast. Just exactly how flat is the wood your cutting. Now most of the time we’re talking thousands I know. But it all adds up. Bottom line, use what works for you and fun doing it. My 2 cents
I believe you get better results if you maintain the upright position of the digital reader rather then rotating 90*. Set at zero, upright and place the side angle to the blade. Both positions should read 0.0*
Square is one of the most important aspects of building anything. Knowing your tools and having confidence in them is the basis on which consistency is built. 1 in 5 is not good enough for me but it may be for others. If that is the case keep filling your joints with epoxy and glue.
I love buying squares, I have 4 already in various styles. Think they are really cool. Funny though cos I actually never use my digital angle cube for the 90 I always use my square.
As I always drop my tools (I could blame it on carpal tunnel, but it's really just clumsiness) I would find it hard to spend so much on a square. That being said, I do find that the digital one is off enough to notice when gluing up, so I always check everything with a square after getting it close with the digital.
Yeah, aluminum ones are better for the occasional drop. But still could knock it out if square. Nothing worse that ruining a good tool with the clumsiness I’m also prone to.
New to wood working period. I don’t understand use on angle you won’t notice. But glued edges etc. I’m not understanding the difference. Would it be the same result?
I have several Sterrett squares of various sizes and configuration. They are essential to fine woodworking. Everything begins with a good square and a sharp pencil. I was surprised and disappointed at the Lack of accuracy of the digital version. I have been wanting one of these... specifically for angled tablesaw blade set up, for quite some time. I guess it's back to old school set ups.
Glue joints mostly. Especially when multiple boards are involved. For me I can’t imagine not shooting for perfection. Inevitably it won’t end up that way. So I’d like to control everything I can to compensate for what I can’t.
I own an old scarlet square that was out of square for a while... I eventually just wrapped sandpaper around a card scraper and sanded down the two points the ruler sits in inside the housing and fine tuned it. I do believe owning a high quality square is important... but you can use it to check "cheaper" squares and tools around the shop. Having accurate, reliable tools makes any job or task less frustrating 🤓
Did you assume zero runout of the blade? Did you re-cal gauge to table and was the square set in the same spot on the table? Do you believe one square is perfect or if two agree both are perfect? The accuracy of gauge is .1 degrees at 90, not .2. Is any of your wood perfectly straight such that less than perfect 90 matters?
I want to build a geodesic dome so having the accurate dihedral angles for the bevel cuts is very important. If I am off by 0.2° on each bevel, I risk having serious problems joining all the panels together. Unfortunately I am strapped for cash for the foreseeable future, but perhaps I could find a friend with one of these tools. Cheers
I think the digital gauges are a good step up over a a Home Depot square, within a reasonable price. They are what, $30, give or take? The vast majority of us, if we are just at the point of upgrading from a home store square, aren't about to drop bank on a Woodpecker, yet. Hell, I have been selling stuff for 2yrs and my "nicest" measuring tools are a 6in PEC blem combo square, and an iGaging digital gauge. I don't have a jointer, and have to do all my edge jointing with the table saw, or router, though mostly the table saw, and honestly I have never had any serious issues gluing up panels. One day I will get high end measuring stuff, but I think it is a bit much to discourage people from using them, given that most of your viewers are likely people who have jobsite saws, and other tools where getting high end accuracy, that even stays put, is going to be a struggle with, or without, a Woodpecker square. My recommendation is to buy an angle gauge until you are at a point where you are serious enough, or rich enough, to buy a Woodpeckers square. The gauges are better than cheap squares, of that I have no doubt from my own experience.
The digital levels are awesome for a number of things you can't do with a square. Level for one. At a known angle to another surface for two. If you have a known accurate reference square and that answers the need then go for it, but these digital levels can do so many more things... Have two pieces of steel to weld square and the bottom one is at 2deg in situ? No problem. Set the other one to 88 and you are done. Can't fit a square into the space? Digital level is only a couple of inches across... no problem. Sick of having your square sitting against carbide insert teeth on your saw blade confounding your measurement? Stick the magnet base to the blade disc and you are away. Can't get your head aligned to eliminate parallax error? Doesn't matter with a digital tool. Horses for courses.
If you cut the same angle in a board there is a way that that angle will cancel to be a perfect 180. So in the end i just alternate the show face and the hide face against the jointer fence or table saw table and the angle cancels out to become flat. 0.2 degrees on a leg to apron joint isn't goign to be noticeable and if it is back bevel your tenon shoulders.
What if you would use the square to calibrate the angle finder? Lots of these videos they zero off the angle finder" from any table or window without a good reference point...
Not demanded by the techniques, but by the people. Man, I dig some of these gizmos, sure, and my caliper can do 1/1000 of an inch which is neat. None of it is necessary; as a newbie I'm probably going to fuck up the cut, anyway.
@@pragmatictwitch I started using a dial caliper for building R/C airplanes in the early '90s. It's MUCH easier to hit the center of a firewall or other piece with a caliper and a calculator than a ruler.
I use 5 different squares to measure my work and they all read the same. Perhaps they are all out by exactly the same amount by exactly the same angle?
1:39 ⌐_⌐ and both squares had a visible gap at the bottom (you can even see light from behind them through the gap at 1:47 quite clearly) because they contacted the top of the guide fence first, telling me that the fence is effectively canted inward toward your blade.
It may well not effect your work as you alluded to, but the angle block is actually correct in those instances because the fence is actually slightly leaning inward from 90 degrees.
2:21 So, you go to the effort of squaring the fence to the table, the angle block now reads 90 degrees exactly, and surprisingly enough your square is also flush to both surfaces.
I'm not going to say digital angle gauges are infallible, anything that is man made inherently includes man's limitations, but I think your video actually demonstrated that the gauges are plenty accurate and if anything helped you to identify that while your squares are indeed square, the fence was not square to the table, and once it was then all the devices started agreeing.
I absolutely agree with your observation. From my perspective I saw the same thing, and I think you're right that when he set the table fence to 90 degrees on the angle gauge, the square matched up flush to the fence, which just confirms the accuracy of the angle gauge.
i see a gap between both squares and the fence......1:47 in the video shows it really well. So the digital gauge is pretty accurate when it says your fence is at 89.5 degrees.
Saw the exact same thing!
Me too
Yes me too, the digital was accurate and his square was out!
He pushed the blade of the square against the fence lifting the base off the table at one end & pronounced the digital gauge as being out, but not his square! 😂😂
Crap happens- especially when your filming unfortunately!
Heck timber moves between summer & winter even after its kiln dried down to equilibrium moisture content, & how much the same species sawn from the same log varies, with whether it’s radial grain or tangential grain!
&
This guy is worried about + or - 0.2 of a degree?
What are you building a timber space shuttle? 😂😂😂
As my old man would say, “we ain’t building Omega watches, sunshine!” 😂😂
me three. you guys beat me to it
Yup, I saw it to
Great information. Since I started using a Starret square to calibrate all the equipment in my shop, my glue ups have been excellent. Thank you for posting.
You do have to spend some time setting the saw up... blade, fence, etc. But once done, the saw is great. Fairly compact which is Nice ruclips.net/user/postUgkxXh-4_3-ZT1fFWP91ZV7iVqzElr0lEb-a I did get an Incra Miter Gauge which takes some setup as well. The stock miter gauge can be adjusted in the miter slot with a little painter's tape... this tightens up the side to side play a lot.
As an Asian style woodworking hobbyist, I usually use the mortise-tenon matching method instead of measure it them separately. Since in most of the time, my tools are not deadly precise. For example when joining two boards, I clam two pieces together and hand plane the gluing sides into one surface instead of depending on deadly 90 degree jointer to make two perfect 90 degree surfaces separately. Besides, no matter how precise wood is milled, they will move very soon. In most of my working situations, flatting ,matching, stabilizing and smoothing can be achieved with a +-0.2 degree gauge.
I also use your method to check my digital angle gauge. Surprisingly, it is quite precise. It shows 90 same as my woodpecker square.
Asian style woodworkers are the best out there. So I’m sure you know your joinery 👌
I have adjusted my lifestyle to accept a 0.2° error. There's always gonna be fussy people in the world, and Starrett will be forever grateful for their continued patronage.
Or people who are doing metalworking who need dead nuts on measurement. Absolute precision in Woodworking is nice, but far from necessary.
@@shirothehero0609 Until you don't do something where it's required. Last year because of Covid I started to make some stuffs with wood and hungarian zithers. When I had shown one of my zithers to a luthier he mentioned about some of my joints is great for a furniture but it have to be better for a musical instrument.
@@saxus Wood is never going to maintain it's dimensions even from one minute to the next due to temperature and humidity. It also compresses, making it impossible to get a precise reading. For luthier work, you do need higher precision than furniture making, but the tolerance is still way below what's acceptable for even low precision machining.
I bought the Klein digital level (the newer model). My Klein digital level has been very accurate, however if I use it to calibrate my bevel angle on my 12" Ridgid miter saw (blade : saw table) it matters where and which side of the blade you attach the level to using the magnets on the level. Always attach your dig level as close to the center of the blade as possible. The weight of the level makes the blade tilt slightly if you put it near the edge of the blade. If you keep it very close to the center the blade won't move tilt due to the weight of the level. On my saw if I attach it to the right side of the blade it causes the blade to tilt no matter where I attach it and I get a bad reading. If I attach it to the left side of the blade and near the center as possible, I get a steady reading and then I use the set screw to fine tune my bevel to 0.0. If I attach the level to the left side of the blade after I get it locked down, it will read 0.0 but if I attach it to the right side of the blade, for some reason the blade can tilt from the weight of the level and it will read 0.1-0.2 - no matter where I put the level so you just have to figure out where the steady spot is on your blade.
Home Depot squares are perfectly fine for 99% of woodwork needs. Pick out a square, stick it on a piece of plywood, draw a line, flip the square, draw another line next to the first. If those two lines track each other, it's good enough for woodwork. If not, pick out a different square. Those hundred dollar squares are for machinists who are milling precision parts. Save your money and buy that power tool you've been salivating for.
Exactly . I use mitutoyo, starret and b&s measurement tools with metalworking and the precision that gets you is nowhere close to what I need for woodworking. HD squares are fine for my wood - at least the type I do...
You said it all. We deal with wood which is flexible enough to absorb such small errors.
Rich Sobocinski I look forward to the day when I can blame a tool that is off by minute amounts for the mistakes in my projects. Right now I am thrilled when can make a drawer that doesn't bind.
@@MJCPeters hahaha!!! Same!!!!!
He's saying a $100 square is more reliable than a $25 digital gauge. That's fair, but how does it compare to a $100 digital gauge?
I can get better accuracy using a square and my eye than the $100 johnson gauge i got. Honestly probably faster to. These gauges seem to have a really shitty lag time or only register movements of .2/3 of a degree or more
With woodworking these gauges are fine for me, I do a three check with it if I was really worried. As for 90 and 45, As I have some many squares around the shop I do find them easier to set up the angle.
Eye opener! I have two (2) of these and rely on them completely for setting angles on my TS blade and jointer fence (primarily). Going to cross check my 90's w/ my Woopecker 1281. Thanks for bring this to our attention!
Happy to help!
Must have lucked out and got a good one. Have used mine many times in the past year with no problems. Always double check known angle blocks and still right on.
William Allington that’s awesome!
its just amazing to me with all the tech we have no one can manufacture a perfectly straight square.
Personally I have two Digital Angle gauges (different brands) and put then on and I calibrate my fence (or blade what ever I am working on) until both agree or put the error to the minimum, that is been working for me, Thanks for the Video very educative.
what you say is spot on. it depends on what you’re doing.
excellent video
I’ve seen some pretty nice stuff made a hundred years ago, and there’s no way they had the accuracy of either. I think the important thing is to understand the error and how to compensate for it.
BTW, semi new subscriber, enjoying the videos and your work.
Some of the old optical based methods from a hundred years ago rival some of the new laser technologies. Optical autocollimators are used in measuring the surface flatness of surface plates down to 5 millionths (a quarter arc second). They did amazing stuff with remarkable precision, a hundred years ago they just used different tools.
Great observation and comment.
They absolutely had that accuracy 100 years ago. Check out gauge blocks, invented in the 1890s (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_block). Accurate to within a millionth of a centimetre. Lots of 80-100 year old machinist's tools are also still in use, and are and were easily accurate to 100 microns.
Probably you should learn the old techniques first. In the past you had a lot of specialized cuting, planing, marking and measuring tools, techniques which can provide similar precision. In old time, lot of woodworkers didn't buyed they tools, they made it, because had the knowledge to make a good square. Actually you have to know that even today to know how to check it is it still in square or not.
Now a lot of things was replaced by fancy machines and buyed tools. Not because everything is more accurate but productivity.
@@saxusit is not about either one. It's about money.
I've heard the Wixey can have accuracy issues, so I got a Beall Tiltbox, which claims to be more accurate. Alas, I haven't used it much, but the few times I have, it seems to do pretty good. I also recently acquired a cheap set of WEN angle blocks, which I haven't had a chance to use, but those are another alternative to the digital gages/precision squares. My main reason for wanting these is to be able to cut oddball angles for things like stave construction or segmented turning.
I wished I had the time mess about making vids but I find my day is taking up making things, tools everywhere and the shop aways needs cleaning 😂
Very well put together video ill take a look at your other stuff, thanks
It’s the worst carving time out for these. So much more enjoyable to just make stuff!
The Starrette square I use is fantastic. I coughed up the few extra dollars after learning the hard way about cheap squares. On some projects when 88.6 degrees is good enough, I use the cheap box store squares, but when I really need accuracy, I can vouch for Starrette,
For sure!
Good thing I just looked this video up right now for this exact reason! Almost bought one! lol.
I got you 👊👊
close enough considering all the wood movement. different story if machining
I bought the $100 johnson gauge. It will tell me 90° and when i bump the saw to jostle it it will come back to 89.8.
At 45° ive found i can get better precision using a speed square and my eye than using the gauge
Thanks, very good video.
Feel free. It works with any number of boards. I found putting an x on alternating board faces then always being able to see the x as i joint worked well. The only down side i ever found was when grain just would not cooperate and tearout would occur. Not a common problem but given desired face and end grain orientation it can throw an annoying wrench in the gears.
The only thing you convinced me, was to buy that so expensive but oh so great looking Woodpecker square ! Thanks for that video 👍
Cheers!
Thanks for doing this video. I've been thinking about a similar video, so it's nice to have someone else jump first, to see what people complain about. I learned at least a couple of things, which I'm sure you already know, and I'd be curious what other things you learned from the comments, that make you wish you'd done something differently?
1) Make sure to show and explain zeroing a digital gauge. I suspect you're kicking yourself over this one, but what can you do? Another time I wish we could edit YT videos.
2) Make it clearer up front that not everyone needs it this exact all the time, although I think if you *can* be exact, why not? But still, it would eliminate some of the negative comments.
3) One of the reasons I may not do this type of video is people want a comparison to other devices, and how much money do I really want to spend on a video like this? You probably feel the same way.
4) If there's a way to demonstrate what that difference actually equates to, as far as real life is concerned, that would be helpful. I wonder if cutting some wood then placing it against a perfectly 90-degree fence would have enough of a gap to show up on video?
Sorry for the ramblings, I'm just thinking out loud about whether this is a subject I want to address or not. I'm not sure I want to face the trolls over this subject, even if the points are valid. Keep up the good work!
Yeah, I think you make a lot of good points. I was amazed that so many people insist it’s based off of “level” and I figured common sense would realize that’s not the case. I also meant to demonstrate a glue up with several boards just slightly off. So if you do it, I think that would help people. I don’t think you’ll eliminate all the negativity, because so many people are just stuck in their ways.
Yeah, well, no, fine!?
(Warning! This comment contains rambling personal views which may offend sensitive woodworkers)
I bought a somewhat similar digital angle guage and eventually donated it to the local animal shelter because it was dang difficult to read. Firstly because it the one I bought didn't have a back-lit display. I literally had to use a flashlight to read it. Secondly because the display shows (for example) 95° as well as 85° as 85° i.e there is no indication from reading the numbers whether you have moved beyond vertical or still have to get there. There is a separate place on the display that you have to look at for that. And who needs that addled aggravation with both hands occupied with setting whatever you want to set while feverishly clutching a flashlight between your front teeth.
But those are design issues that can be resolved by being careful what you buy.
I tested that one for consistency by placing a pie dish with a ½" of water in the freezer overnight and using the resultant ice surface as a "perfect" flat. Rotating the device around its vertical axis and reading it from different angles gave a surprising degree of consistency - in fact it showed no errors at all.
In the meantime I had installed an "inclimometer" app on my smartphone and made a steady bracket to hold it in. I tested it the same way and got the same results (and for free). No waiting for delivery and no shipping costs either.
So as to the accuracy of such devices, my observation is that results in using them will more likely arise from the skill of the user than from the device itself.
Having said all that, to get to the question of how much accuracy does one need in woodworking?
My answer is "as much as your particular project needs". If you are making a sawhorse the a degree or two either way isn't going to make much difference to how it works. But making wooden gears for a clock is another thing altogether. I don't think that the topic lends itself to an "absolutistic" approach.
This philosophy should not become an excuse for sloppy work. My approach is to aim for as perfect a finish as I can get every time and to use every cut I make as an opportunity to do better.
Love your water into ice idea. Consider it stolen.
@@EscapeMCP
You are most welcome. You should experiment a bit. Depending on the depth of the water, the shape of the dish and other factors, you can get that the ice bulges up in the middle. I got around that by adding another 5mm of water on top of the ice and letting that freeze.
Have fun...
@@EscapeMCP
Hi,
I forgot to mention that you need to calibrate your inclimometer / level guage without moving the "ice floe" from the freezer as well as taking care not to disturb its position in any way while working on it in any way.
Why I only thought about adding this this morning is a mystery.
Nice demonstration. I've never really thought about getting one of these gimmicy things always used a try square or pertractor on a trial piece first. Like you say buy good quality tools they'll last you a lifetime. Check your squares against each other on the machine table.I'm not a big fan of the sliding rule type for checking accuracy seen too many inaccurate ones even the good quality makes.
Liked the digital angle gauge video, but what I really liked was the case you had all your measuring tools in , mine will soon have a nice home like yours . And yes .2 degrees + / - is a lot when its so easy to be right on.
For sure
I resiliently learned to use a router tale to get those perfect 45% angles for glue ups. Thank you for pointing out the inconsistency of those gauges.
I’ll need to learn that method!
What is a router tale?
gerard fallon maybe google it?
@@BlacktailStudio ruclips.net/video/L4bI-uNqblo/видео.html&lc=z22wfbzhzoqjxhymyacdp43a2ew11yy430bylvgx3y5w03c010c.1551187241961836
check out guyswoodshop
@@BlacktailStudio chamfer bit
Thank you .. your explanation very good especially as you write some sentences when you speak. 👍👍👍
Good video. Regarding if it's good enough, it depends on who you are and what you're making. Some people may not care about imperfect glue lines with the thought that they are going to sand and or plane it anyway. For things that may compound on themselves (like picture frames do) a .2 error would be very noticeable. I don't own one of these so I can't say too much. I do own some woodpecker squares and have found them to be very accurate.
Yeah, I think I didn’t clarify that enough in the video. One edge of a table being off by .2 isn’t a big deal. But 10 boards glued up (or a picture frame) is where it’s quite noticeable. Well said!
once and for all there is no reason to buy a $90 square from woodpecker or starret for that matter. I have witnessed a lot of cases of the woodpecker squares being out. This is an example of prestige pricing like I have never seen. Go get yourself a machinist square for $20 if you want something accurate and be done with it. Want accurate measuring go get anything for metal working (what starret is known for) and they will be more than accurate enough for any woodworking and at a 10th of the cost...
Thanks for the tip!
how do you find an accurate machinist square for $20? The ones I've seen on amazon for that price all have a number reviews saying they're out of square.
I think the screw tight square can easily end up out just as much, fixed square not so much, though that depends on its treatment too.
Hmm, as a retired scientist/engineer we were always taught to know -and use- your measurements appropriately; and this includes the math of using them. So ... you make a good point here. I would want precision in making fine furniture, esp. glue joints for sure. As my father always said People may no see everything but they will notice so do your best and pay attention to the details. Question: Do you calibrate your $500 squares often ? (butt 2 together or flip one against itself?) Take care🙏 -Mike
p.s. I'm on a quest to enter your 1 Million Subscriber giveaway. hehe
p.p.s I saw this vid and having just bought a used 10" contractor saw set up as a 4' cabinet saw I was cosidering a digital angle gauge ... a woodturner doesn't need too great a precision in a table saw !!
I stopped using these tilt boxes years ago but for a completely different reason. I make a lot of stave builds and out of habit these don’t provide me with a hundredths place read out. You can imagine that if I’m trying to complete 360* then the readout being off even by a hundredths off it’ll throw the circle off. Then I realized years ago that it’s not so much the box, but a lot of the times it can be pitch on the blade, also the way the blade travels vertically. A lot of saws use a swing motion where the lift mechanism pivots on the front of the saw and that can have a huge impact. HOWEVER! These are great to get quick reference guides like you mentioned, especially if the angle doesn’t have to be exactly precise. If you’re looking to get precise angles for crazy glue-ups just use a good ole fashion protractor or an angle finder that can be used measuring off of the cast iron and not the blade, after all - you’re angle won’t matter at all if 0* or 90* isn’t relative to the surface you’re passing your boards through.
Totally agree! Great point on making the multi-side boxes.
Hmmm arithmetical slight of hand? Deliberate or just not thinking straight?
If the accuracy of the digital scale is +/- 0.2 and for example reads spot on 90 then the reality, at worst, is that is EITHER 89.8 or 90.2 not both!!! so is is not 0.5 of a degree out, It is .02 at worse.
And to, nit pick, even if your logic were true 0 .2 + 0.2 is 0.4 not the “half a degree out” that you sate. You have weakened your case by exaggeration.....
Further like others who have commented can you really eyeball .02 of a gap using your set square. On pause I believe I can see a light gap when you rest your 100% accurate square against the fence...
In any case I have never trusted either type of device entirely and suggest you consider the following test:-
Set your fence using your best set square and make a couple of cuts on a sample of wood from a current project (nothing special make this a test of the real world of wood work).
Then deliberately unset the fence and re-set it it using the digital scale and make another couple of test cuts on the same type of material. Now ask another person to check the angles..... I wonder what they will find .........?
Further leave the samples a week under normal workshop/household conditions and check them again. ..... How much would you wager on the readings all being the same as before.
It is the result in the piece of wood we cut that is the real criterion here. And there are more variables in blades, fence to blade parallel measurements, and above all in the natural variability in the behaviour of wood, than worrying about 0.2 of a degree.
BTW Still enjoyed the video and it did make me think about what I was measuring.
Mike Pearson thanks for all the words! Certainly a good read.
The video was exactly right on this point.
But if the digital readout is 90.2 the error can be anywhere from 89.8 to 90.2. Almost 1/2 a degree.
My final calibration is always done by actually cutting wood and measuring the angle. I find that even the best attempt to use a square does not give me a perfect 90. It usually takes me about 10 cuts to get my saws perfect but from then on I don't need to mess with it.
I've used these, like you said for arbitrary angles and they work well. More recently though I've used them to set up my band saw. It did just fine. But I agree wouldnt use one of these to set the presets on a table saw or jointer.
For sure. I’d definitely use it on a bandsaw too.
I make a lot of boxes with Mitered corners. I have never had such good corners as since I started to use the Wixey gauge.
Yeah I hear a lot of good things a about digital gauges.
The jury is still out. I think I might try my first project with digital and if I don't get the results I want then I'll try the method shown in the video
I'm going to get one....just to add to my options.
I made a cell phone holder that hangs perfectly flat on one side of my table saw blade, and downloaded a free leveling app. So far I've had zero issues with any angle of miter I cut while using this set up. All from scrap wood, and a free app.
Coffee table for give away. Also really like the change up of wood. Do you think cedar wood for a table wood look good?
I appreciate your video. As a full time woodworker my response is it depends on the build (as you pointed out). There are times where absolute precision is a must- and times where there is a small degree of give. Of course a build is either square or not square. No such thing as “sorta “ square :-)
For sure!
unless you are a builder, then square has a different meaning as does level.
I've seen Starrett squares that are more than .2 off from one to another , never seen woodpecker squares to be able to compare one against another . where i used to work in the aerospace industry we had to have our tools calibrated every 30 days or sooner if they were bumped or dropped . they used a Faro arm and a flattened granite slab to check for out of square and would only approve them for use if they were +/- .0001 within the length of the square checked . if they didn't meet specs then they went back to Starrett for them to redo . Digital ones were only allowed to be used to check travel on movable parts with greater tolerances allowed .
Good to know! And yeah, any expensive square can still be off!
Thanks for your comments about digital gauge mediocre accuracy. I’ve been annoyed with them as I require 90 degree accuracy for most of my work and find that I am daily checking my table saw for 90 degrees. I thought these digital gauges would make life easier ( I’ve tried 3 different brands) but they just frustrate the heck out of me instead. I thought it was me and learned that inexpensive ones just can’t deliver
I don't need the check my table saw blade every day. Even when I do it, it is still at 90⁰ after hundreds of cuts. That's because the table saw quality matters too. If you need to check it up every day (and make adjustments), you may very well need to replace some parts on your table saw or buy a good quality one. I own a good quality Grizzly hybrid table saw and never had that issue.
Even my 10-year old 10" Craftsman job site table saw keeps its settings after extensive use.
Cremona said it well last year, it depends on the tolerances each person is fine with. If you cant see it in the finished product than its good enough (for me at least)
Totally agree!
Exactly that ^ !!!
More then one way to do almost anything and all woodworkers are different. It’s the finished product that matters most!
:)
Digital inclinometers require a quality reference that you zero to for both zero and 90. Without a quality reference to zero to your always going to be off more than the expected uncertainty in the measurement. I feel it's worth it the spend more for a digital inclinometer that has less uncertainty. I also agree that you should always use a trusted quality square when squaring a fence or a blade. The uncertainty in a quality square is a tiny fraction of a degree, off the top of my head it's something like +-0.001 or basically the machining tolerance.
I have that Wixey angle finder and use it when I need a 45 or something in between on the table saw. I find it to be plenty accurate enough for me. The reality is that it's probably never really going to add up to .5 (.4?) off. More likely it will be somewhere between dead on accurate to .1 or .2 off. Let's not forget that wood moves too right? I mean at some point you have to go with the flow a bit and admit that accurate enough is accurate enough when we are working with a material like wood. I'm sure I can introduce .1 of angle (and more) by simply pushing too hard on one side or the other as I feed the saw anyway! Hell, when I first got my Starrett it was completely square but I tested it a couple months later only to find out it was no longer in square and needed adjustments.
I've done a ton of miters on the table saw and used the Wixey to get my 45 and the joints have always come together great. Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe the error is too small to make a meaningful difference when all other things are considered.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
There are a number of things that can affect squareness of a jointer fence or table saw blade. First of all, a jointer fence (or table) might not be perfectly flat, so squareness would vary depending upon where you check it. Secondly, some people, like myself, can't see well enough to judge when the square is perfectly aligned with the fence or a blade. A blade could also not be true. I have found my Wixey digital gage to be at least as accurate as my eyeball and square setting ability. They are a bit difficult to use for adjusting, as it is quite a chore to get the adjustment right on the number you want. The only real way to know if your equipment is adjusted correctly is to make some cuts and see how they fit.
Totally fair! Sounds like some people have better digital gauges than me. Cause mine is a noticeable turn of the handwheel off of my squares. I like your point about making the cuts to find out where square really is though.
Eyesight is also a limiting factor for me. Sometimes I use a $10 speed square and an automotive feeler gauge.
I think the takeaway is to do a couple a measurements and take the average, if you need that level of accuracy, but + or - 0.2 actually seems really precise for a tool that cheap and user friendly.
Yeah! They are amazingly accurate for $30. Just important to know their limitations. If it’s not a glue joint it’s probably fine.
YOU JUST CHANGED MY MIND FROM BUYING ONE. I AM GOING TO GET A CORNER ANGLE FINDER WHICH WILL DO TABLE SAW ANGLES JUST AS WELL. THANKS
Right, the damn wood moves more then that but there you go........
Beauty is in the eye...
What about the analog gauges that use a dial and gravity to hold the needle steady as the magnetic base rotates? Are these any better? I believe they are called magnetic angle indicators.
Never used em!
I have the same wixi gauge and use it all the time for 45 and returning back to 90 and also returning back from a dado stack.
Several times you didn’t zero the gauge. And also don’t forget the gauge is just a fancy level so even when you zero it if your table or jointer isn’t perfectly level it may show on the wixi.
Glad it works well for you!!
I look at what I'm doing in the shop. Most of what I do is butt joints and simple 90s that can be half a degree off. I'm not making picture frames yet. I can still respect someone who drops 500 bucks for making sure they're getting the results that they want. Especially if you're doing this daily or weekly.
I think your statement is very true. For the home guy you don't NEED hyper accuracy. But if its your profession and you need repeatability and longevity then spend the money on the best tools out there.
I use a $300 angle grinder and home which most people think is excessive. But at work we use a $2500 grinder 😳
For digital gauges to work, the tool has to be perfectly level from the floor up. If your tool is on a angle at the floor, the angle will be off greatly when finding the square for a fence
Thanks for the info.accurate square like starret and woodpecker is more reliable.or its the incinimeter your using?are all incinometer same?
Just like squares, there are better and worse ones
i use the ball bearing and grease method for angle accuracy, good enough for machining good enough for wood
Don’t know that method... I’ll have to look it up
I wonder what the tolerance or accuracy are on those squares? Be good to know to compare between the gauge and the squares.
For Sterret squares, they come with tolerance and accuracy numbers, and they are better than the digital gauge
I have this gauge as well, but I don't think the accuracy (at least on mine) is really there. I found on a few measurements that my gauge was over a full degree off. I usually set my blade with the gauge and then verify the angle with an angle finder if the angle is really critical.
Great point! I don’t like these very much when they work perfectly. Let alone when then start to fail over time. Thanks for the input!
A high quality square is always nice. That is reason enough to buy one.
You may not need it every time, but when it has to be right you need the right tool
Agreed!
Without reading all the comments did any one mention something my dad called reverse jointing. Basically if you have three boards to glue up the two outside boards you joint board face away from jointer fence the middle board joint bothh edges board face to jointer fence. Extrapolate for as many boards as you are gluing. This method eleminates or rather absorbs any error in your set up. This was just something i always took for granted most folks knew. Hope this is helpful. Enjoy the work
That would make a great video in itself!
I would do it as you as well, but even squares made out of metal with high prices have a tolerance, just like the digital meter. I used to work with navy metcal and we checked for calibration of squares and flat guides that were made out of metal or solid surface or stone. Those items had to be checked on a regular basis, the cal cycle depended on the type, manufacturer and was based on historical data, so nothing is in cal one time and never needs checked again and everything comes with tolerances. Tight tolerance means more money so its efficient to determine how much you need or how much variance your project can tolerate. I would ask, if your cheap square is always matching your expensive square, then why did you purchase it?...and as others noted, it appears like there were some light showing through the squares and then we must ask, are our eyes calibrated LOL
Is the gauge zeroed on the table or on true level? It seems like .5 degrees is a bit much to chalk up to an inaccurate gauge? I have a digital gauge similar to this and it has proven to be pretty darn accurate!
Zeroed on the table. Life would be tough if our floors had to be level!
Makes me feel a lot better about buying a 1281 last week, that's for sure.
Oh good!
Did he say what he does use to set an angle other than 90 if not the box?
Woodpecker makes odd angle tools for it
This comment might bump the algorithm a bit. I was taught to use the edge of the blade on my square instead the of flat part of the blade. Turning the square at a slight angle gives you a finer line to visually inspect better.
Inexpensive and very accurate solution: For my table saw, to set 90 deg, you don’t need either expensive squares or electronic gauges. I use 2 pieces of hardboard that are laminated to 3 layers thick to provide dimensional stability. They are dimensioned 14” x the max cutting height of my blade (on an old 10” Unisaw). Importantly, mark them to keep track of the orientation of each. Using your bevel gauge, run them through the saw to just lightly trim one end at full blade height. Key point here is to gang cut them. The test of square is to then place each piece with the cut ends on a clean, flat surface, and orient them with the edges that were down on the table saw are against each other. This doubles the error. Backlight it. If there is a gap at the top, you need to move your blade counterclockwise, and vice-versa. You can get it within a couple of thousands of an inch over the length of the pieces which is very good for precision woodworking. Replace the boards when they eventually get down to about 12” long. .... for the jointer, square really doesn’t matter if you run your project boards through such that you have the top face of one board against the jointer fence and the top face of the other is away. The angle inaccuracy cancels out on the glueup. You do, however, need to keep track of what piece was oriented which way. That being said, I do keep mine as close to square as I can get! .... For 45 deg on the table saw, you can do something similar and check against a good square to see how close you are to making 90 deg with the cut faces against each other. That’s essentially a test cut which you should do anyway. .... BTW, I do have Starrett squares (12” and 6”) as well as an electronic gauge and I totally agree with your comments!!!
Thanks!
While that works pretty well, it is an overkill method. That's why people invented and created tools and devices to ease the work and still achieve great results.
There are multiple ways to achieve the same result, some ways are easier than others, some are more accurate, some are just too complicate.
Great video and did not think about the variances in digital gages. Guess I need to break out the wallet and get some quality squares.
I don't own a digital gauge. Always have used my Sterret square, but I worked in a tool room so I'm anal about woodworking. That also makes me slow as mud.☹
Yeah, not fun to buy but necessary!
Kinda makes you wonder how anybody made perfectly square projects before the advent of digital gauges? Wait! They didn’t, it is wood for crying out loud. Still, 89.800 degrees is a good start. Yes, a $90.00 square is perfect and I have referenced my magnetic digital gauge off the square directly and 8 out of 10 times they agree perfectly. The other 2 times it may be 89.9 or 90.1. Another reason I try not to tilt my blade ever.
david porter for my stage of woodworking 89.8-90.2 is damn near perfect.
@@BlacktailStudio I've got a 5" since bar that I haven't used while wood working😁. But I have used my 10" height set. It's vernier scale. Use it so I don't forget how to read a vernier scale.
For what I do, the digital is fine. It repeats, or it has repeated when I thought to check it after setup. So what’s your suggestion for say 22.5 or 45 deg?
Woodpecker makes tools just for that. I only have the 45 though
Yeah... woodpecker $$$$
I just bought a digital gage (S & F) I checked my table saw, that I had set with my machinist's square it came out to 90 degrees I then wanted a few minutes and measured again 90 degrees. I will admit that if I just wanted 90 degrees it is quicker to use a quality square. But what if you want 60 degrees or 74 degrees?
Yup! Hard to find a 62” square. Mainly matters for glue joints
In all honesty, if I ever get to the level of woodworking where this is an issue, I’ll be happy.
Depends. Coming from an engineer, .2° varies quite a bit depending on the thickness of the wood you are cutting.
Don’t do it for a living anymore, but square is square. Just out of square doesn’t count as square in my book. If it’s not going to help me turn out the best product possible or ends up making things more difficult and frustrating to complete, I don’t want it around. The exception you mention was a valid one.
Thanks, and agreed!
Yeah, my digital angle gauge olso has a problem: the battery has run out I need a new one, sucks😤😤😤
It's hard to use a right angle gauge on those table saw inserts and get a good measurement. Been using the digital now and happy with it.
I have had no success with the digital gauge. Thanks for bringing attention to the issue. I thought I was not using it correctly.
What digital angle gauge did you have?
A couple things that have seen addressed. One is quality of saws. How true is a saws arbor. If your using a portable job sight type saw that’s not as accurate as a new top of the line cabinet saw then there can be quite a bit of difference in tolerance. Also blades, have you spun the blade 180 degrees and see if the is any change. How old is the blade, has it gotten hot from pushing hardwood through to fast. Just exactly how flat is the wood your cutting. Now most of the time we’re talking thousands I know. But it all adds up. Bottom line, use what works for you and fun doing it. My 2 cents
Good tips!
I believe you get better results if you maintain the upright position of the digital reader rather then rotating 90*. Set at zero, upright and place the side angle to the blade. Both positions should read 0.0*
That only works if the sides are exactly perpendicular to the bottom. Mine isn't.
Square is one of the most important aspects of building anything. Knowing your tools and having confidence in them is the basis on which consistency is built. 1 in 5 is not good enough for me but it may be for others. If that is the case keep filling your joints with epoxy and glue.
For sure
I love buying squares, I have 4 already in various styles. Think they are really cool. Funny though cos I actually never use my digital angle cube for the 90 I always use my square.
Good call!
As I always drop my tools (I could blame it on carpal tunnel, but it's really just clumsiness) I would find it hard to spend so much on a square. That being said, I do find that the digital one is off enough to notice when gluing up, so I always check everything with a square after getting it close with the digital.
Yeah, aluminum ones are better for the occasional drop. But still could knock it out if square. Nothing worse that ruining a good tool with the clumsiness I’m also prone to.
@@BlacktailStudio good to know that the aluminum ones can take an occasional drop. I might have to drop some cash on one :)
So a metal speed square wouldn't be a good option to square up my table saw or mitre saw blades?
Not great. Better than nothing though.
New to wood working period. I don’t understand use on angle you won’t notice. But glued edges etc. I’m not understanding the difference. Would it be the same result?
Picture gluing up 10 boards for a flat table. If they’re all of 2 degrees it will be curved or wobbly. But 2 degrees on an edge won’t notice much
Helpful video! For the casual hobbyist-probably not; for someone who makes fine furniture-sure, +/-.2 is a mile.
Agreed!
I have several Sterrett squares of various sizes and configuration. They are essential to fine woodworking. Everything begins with a good square and a sharp pencil.
I was surprised and disappointed at the Lack of accuracy of the digital version. I have been wanting one of these... specifically for angled tablesaw blade set up, for quite some time. I guess it's back to old school set ups.
Yeah, some people on this thread say there are super accurate digital ones... but people on threads say a lot of things I guess.
Well, just like there is a difference in the accuracy of a home depot square vs the woodpecker one, there are different accuracy digital gauges.
That’s a great point! I would love to look into a quality digital one.
What are you building that has such close tolerances or requires such precision?
Glue joints mostly. Especially when multiple boards are involved. For me I can’t imagine not shooting for perfection. Inevitably it won’t end up that way. So I’d like to control everything I can to compensate for what I can’t.
My biggest complaint is that I get different values when I flip it 180 degrees.
I own an old scarlet square that was out of square for a while... I eventually just wrapped sandpaper around a card scraper and sanded down the two points the ruler sits in inside the housing and fine tuned it. I do believe owning a high quality square is important... but you can use it to check "cheaper" squares and tools around the shop. Having accurate, reliable tools makes any job or task less frustrating 🤓
Well said!
Did you assume zero runout of the blade? Did you re-cal gauge to table and was the square set in the same spot on the table? Do you believe one square is perfect or if two agree both are perfect? The accuracy of gauge is .1 degrees at 90, not .2. Is any of your wood perfectly straight such that less than perfect 90 matters?
I want to build a geodesic dome so having the accurate dihedral angles for the bevel cuts is very important. If I am off by 0.2° on each bevel, I risk having serious problems joining all the panels together.
Unfortunately I am strapped for cash for the foreseeable future, but perhaps I could find a friend with one of these tools. Cheers
Cheers! There are videos out there on how to turn a $5 square into the accuracy of a $100 square. So maybe a good place to start!
That is what caulk is for!!
@@markw3598 no it's not. What if the bevels are too big?
I think the digital gauges are a good step up over a a Home Depot square, within a reasonable price. They are what, $30, give or take? The vast majority of us, if we are just at the point of upgrading from a home store square, aren't about to drop bank on a Woodpecker, yet. Hell, I have been selling stuff for 2yrs and my "nicest" measuring tools are a 6in PEC blem combo square, and an iGaging digital gauge. I don't have a jointer, and have to do all my edge jointing with the table saw, or router, though mostly the table saw, and honestly I have never had any serious issues gluing up panels. One day I will get high end measuring stuff, but I think it is a bit much to discourage people from using them, given that most of your viewers are likely people who have jobsite saws, and other tools where getting high end accuracy, that even stays put, is going to be a struggle with, or without, a Woodpecker square.
My recommendation is to buy an angle gauge until you are at a point where you are serious enough, or rich enough, to buy a Woodpeckers square. The gauges are better than cheap squares, of that I have no doubt from my own experience.
I dont think these digital gauges are specifically designed for 90 degrees, they are designed so you can set to any angle
?
I wonder if 90° would be one of "any angle"
@@hamaljay it sure would, and im sure it would do a fine job finding it too
The digital levels are awesome for a number of things you can't do with a square. Level for one. At a known angle to another surface for two.
If you have a known accurate reference square and that answers the need then go for it, but these digital levels can do so many more things...
Have two pieces of steel to weld square and the bottom one is at 2deg in situ? No problem. Set the other one to 88 and you are done.
Can't fit a square into the space? Digital level is only a couple of inches across... no problem.
Sick of having your square sitting against carbide insert teeth on your saw blade confounding your measurement? Stick the magnet base to the blade disc and you are away.
Can't get your head aligned to eliminate parallax error? Doesn't matter with a digital tool.
Horses for courses.
Good tips!
If you cut the same angle in a board there is a way that that angle will cancel to be a perfect 180. So in the end i just alternate the show face and the hide face against the jointer fence or table saw table and the angle cancels out to become flat. 0.2 degrees on a leg to apron joint isn't goign to be noticeable and if it is back bevel your tenon shoulders.
Andrew V that’s a nice trick!
What if you would use the square to calibrate the angle finder? Lots of these videos they zero off the angle finder" from any table or window without a good reference point...
Every time it’s different
I’m ok with that. It’s like people worried about a few thousandths. Wood working is not that precise.
I agree, the only person it would infuriate is a maths teacher 😂😂😂
@1:48, there is a gap at the bottom with the Woodpecker(?)
how do u know that the woodpecker square is exactly square u should by a engineer's square they are not cheap eg $300
I mostly use hand tools. It blows my mind at the levels of accuracy demanded by modern techniques.
Not demanded by the techniques, but by the people. Man, I dig some of these gizmos, sure, and my caliper can do 1/1000 of an inch which is neat. None of it is necessary; as a newbie I'm probably going to fuck up the cut, anyway.
Aim small miss small. I'd rather aim for a thousandth of an inch and miss than aim for 1/8th and miss.
@@pragmatictwitch I started using a dial caliper for building R/C airplanes in the early '90s. It's MUCH easier to hit the center of a firewall or other piece with a caliper and a calculator than a ruler.
I use 5 different squares to measure my work and they all read the same. Perhaps they are all out by exactly the same amount by exactly the same angle?