Stop Signs Need to Go
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- Опубликовано: 3 ноя 2024
- A part of the script that I ultimately deleted at the end because the video was getting too long:
One last thing. In addition to being a structural traffic control tool, stop signs are a social law enforcement tool. Police use them to pull over suspicious cars and protect the rest of us from potential criminals. The issue is there's no consistency with which they pull people over. It actually seems incredibly subjective how they pull people over, and in a society where justice is supposed to be blind, this amount of inconsistency leaves a lot of room for bias, which then leaves a lot of room for doing the wrong thing.
So if you’re someone who is concerned about over-policing, and you’re wondering why your social media posts about defunding the police and your demands that your city slash your police budget aren't working, try this: suggest areas where you can reduce the scope of the police. We already did that with marijuana, so let’s do that with stop signs. Create an environment where there is no stop sign to run and let the police focus on the actual criminals, like P Diddy or whoever.
Because when you have an intersection where people are regularly running the stop signs, it doesn’t mean they’re bad people; it means it’s a bad intersection. Except this guy (clip of guy at 5:30). He’s a bad person and I really wish the police were here to ticket him.
Counterpoint from a pedestrian pov (which I’m sure you understand but didn’t really mention). When I’m crossing at a 4 way stop as a pedestrian I do get to own the intersection. I feel safer to step in front of moving vehicles knowing that they “should” stop. In roundabouts, I’ve found that cars do not like yielding to pedestrians whatsoever. They want to blow through and go where they want to go. Kind of like a pedestrian crossing with no stoplight, no one actually will stop for you
Good point. This video was almost entirely from the viewpoint of a bicyclist or car but not a pedestrian. I'll have to make a follow-up video.
I feel safer j walking vs crossing at the round about where I live due to visibility and like you said cars not giving the right away to pedestrians
From a car perspective, the only half decent roundabout is the big one in long beach. For some reason, LA decided to put 4 stop signs and a roundabout on former 4-way stop intersections *on residential streets*. Functionally, those roundabouts are just 4-way stop intersections with worse visibility.
As a pedestrian, I find the confidence that cars would stop if they are diriving slow enough. The crazy thing is that I live in a college down, people here drive a lot slower near the college because jaywalking is almost expected here!
I stop at all stop signs when in a car or on a cycle. Even if I am the only one I see, even if it is 3AM and I have not seen another vehicle in half an hour.
That's the rule, and it's not all that danged hard to follow.
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Also, even when the stop line is so far back you can't see oncoming traffic from the sides, I stop at the stop line.
Does it irritate other drivers? Sometimes. And that's just a bonus.
“Stopabouts” are probably the stupidest thing that actually exists that I’ve learned about this month
hi even, cool to see you here!
There are two roundabouts in Gardner MA that used to be "Rotaries" or what you call "stopabouts"
The yield at the entrance of roundabouts is a "Be prepared to stop if you have to".
love the urban planning arc
love the urban planning arc
love the urban planning arc
He has returned
Roundabouts may not be a silver bullet, but we would seriously benefit from them being waaay more common. Also, expanding the traffic calming toolkit with raised crosswalks, curb bump-outs, refuge islands, and modal filters is an excellent idea. And while stop signs may not be the best solution, they can temporarily improve an intersection while it is slated for some of these more effective redesigns.
Thanks for the input! I enjoy your channel!
Ya this video highlights some other cool alternatives as well. Truly some intelligent civil engineering. Our engineering seems to have rested on its laurels here. Mostly becoming lane boys (one more lane bro) with most of the engineering work going into ebbs and flows of on/off ramps, or how to stretch a bridge...
Has anyone tested a 4 lane, 4 way stop? Sounds like some devilishly good fun to watch for 5 minutes when rush hour hits!
Roundabouts take up a lot of space
Roundabouts dont have to take much more than a 4 way stop. The size of the roundabout increases with speed and ammount of lanes. Some are quite large. But the ones ive driven on 25mph 2 lane streets were barley eating up some corner space compared to a stop sign. Basically where the sign already is, just deleted, and made round, with a yeild painted on the road.
@@brandonhoffman4712 Exactly. Just look up the terms "mini roundabout" or "neighborhood traffic circle" to see options that exist within the current side street infrastructure. You can see examples of them in Highland Park in Los Angeles
The funny thing is I live in Idaho and have always called the rolling stop the "California stop"
An Idaho stop is a legal maneuvre taken by bicycles where a stop sign is treated like a give way (yield). A California stop is illegally running a stop sign. There's a big difference.
I'm a Cali Boy 100% born and raised and no it's not called a California stop, it's called a HOLLYWOOD stop, the police there in Cali will also call it a HOLLYWOOD stop.
@@cecilecorpuz5735 sounds like a difference of where you are from. Here in Iowa, we also call it a California stop rather than a Hollywood stop.
@@cecilecorpuz5735 I'm from LA and we call it the California stop or California roll
@AD-mq1qj I'm from California and the California roll is an awesome sushi roll
Seattle figured this out in the 70s: sometimes you need a stop sign, but a roundabout is often always better: and in most neighborhoods, you find those (locally called “Traffic Circles”) at most intersections that aren’t major thoroughfares. As a bonus, they create a little green space that can host a tree or some flowers (maintained by neighbors!), helping cool the city, reduce noise/air pollution, and reduce urban runoff. They’re also very cheap to build since they’re small and don’t require any complex engineering work.
They work incredibly well for reducing speeding on side streets, and creating more bike-friendly routes, while helping traffic move better. Busses handle them fine, too.
Alas for bigger multi-lane intersections they still mostly use traffic lights, but even that’s starting to change.
The USA's obsession with stop signs is always something that amused me as a brit. Here we only use stop signs in exceptional circumstances, such as when visibility is seriously reduced to a point where you *absolutely must* stop. In pretty much all other circumstances, a give way/yield sign does the job better, allowing drivers to come to their own judgement about whether or not it is safe to proceed without coming to a full stop, and thus improving the overall flow of traffic!
In situations where traffic from all sides needs to give way we also have mini roundabouts, which function the same as a normal roundabout but with no central island (it's just paint instead). This works much better than a 4-way stop/4-way yield, because it establishes a clear hierarchy of who has priority and creates certainty for drivers, rather than trying to guess which car got there first as seen at 4-way stop signs!
That's because in the last few years here in SoCal people tend to ignore stop signs, traffic lights, speed limits etc..
Yes. My US city is unique (Sioux Falls, SD) where they only use stop signs in the circumstances you mentioned. Reduced visibility, elementary and middle schools, churches, and downtown. We are kind of obsessed with stoplights though, way too many of those. I can always tell who is and isn't from town by watching them stop at every intersection. It's always those out of state/county plates lol.
Where I live in the US we have a couple streets where STOP signs are only on the sidestreets and you still see people stopping in the main road even when they have the right of way. It's just too ingrained to have 4 way stops everywhere.
I think that maybe a reason is that you have to account for the lowest denominator and in the US basically everyone needs to drive a car outside big cities. So you end up with teens and elderly people, that shouldn't be driving. There's also the problem that getting a driver's license is extremely easy and cheap because not having one can eliminate your ability to get a job, buy food, etc.
Thank you, I was thinking this the whole time. (As well as with some controversy around whether self-driving cars should always-stop at stop signs or whether they should "get to" roll like "everyone else" does - such a uniquely American issue!)
Especially the four-way stop, trying to figure out the order of who got there before you basically just involves waiting and hoping the others around you get it right. So bizarre compared to just establishing a direction with priority (which you could even do without roundabouts!)
100% agree
One thing NA urbanists seem to hate is one way streets, but there's so much benefit. Stoplights can have less phases, drivers are less frantic at intersections, pedestrian frogger is easier, you can free so much space for other uses,. The last bit is key for inside neighbourhoods. I understand the objection of encouraging speed, but I feel the better flow gives leeway to implement more traffic calming in other forms without causing much pushback.
Glasgow implements one ways pretty well, Manchester not so much
Brooklyn's got 'em
Also counterflowing on a bicycle feels so good.
What you’ve said is often true for one lane one-ways, but usually not true for multi-lane one-ways. Multi-lane one-ways are super common in NA because most streets are wide, hence the ire towards one ways generally. Many planners do know about the possible benefits of keeping one-ways and reallocating that space - check out the recommendations in the NACTO urban street design guide
@@Ge0rge249 100% on board there. It's just that the video was focused on neighbourhood streets, and I can't imagine even the worst planner reaching for a multilane one way for a quiet residential / mixed area.
The worst are intersections WITH roundabouts that also have a Stop sign for some reason. I'm looking at you, West Hollywood.
I'm a UCLA alum/current staff in the dept of publich health, cyclist since I was 10, and have lived in this exact neighborhood for 3 years. The urban planning/flaws you highlight are so real and are a major detraction to safety, well-being, and overall vibe in LA. Sometimes these problems feel like they'll never be solved, but I hope your vids get seen by decision-makers and taken seriously. Thank you, this is super valuable work and I empathize with the frustration. I just hope none of us get mowed down while trying to live a normal human life.
There are some arguments against roundabouts... but, in the end, the ability of the roundabout to transform a T-bone collision into a fender bender is the decisive factor. This one feature, alone, outweighs all other concerns, even level of service. And where space just doesn't allow a roundabout, the raised, uncontrolled intersection is the next best thing. Great video!
I love the idea for roundabouts. Especially in those neighborhoods where it’s block after block of stop signs. But for a big intersections you have to consider large vehicles like busses, box trucks, U-hual’s, trash trucks, 18 wheeler. Even fire trucks
Do you think buses, trucks and such don't exist in Europe ? of course roundabouts can be adapted for big vehicles
Take Australia. Our most dominant form of intersection features giveway signs (yield for you guys). Mind you, there will almost never be a case where there is a 4 way giveway, only really 2 way giveways. We still have stop signs, but they're limited to ONLY WHEN REQUIRED (i.e. where motor-traffic may cause high-risk situations to non motor-traffic (where a laneway meets a footpath and you can't see past the property fenceline)). It's not the perfect solution, but it sure helps the flow.
Also, love that we use roundabouts so much more often here.
I was very skeptical going into this video. As a cyclist and pedestrian in LA it feels extremely dangerous to remove the stop sign, the one thing that seems to get cars to some of the time give us our right-of-way. But you’re right, stop signs are inconsistently followed by all traffic and round abouts seem better.
The rainbow halo is such an "F you" to anyone who has died to a car. It shows the bureaucracy in LA is draining the working class
As a European living, walking and biking in LA : THANK YOU ! Stop signs drive me crazy here
Roll over stops by cars have nearly cause my kids to be run over multiple times while crossing on crosswalks. I disagree that they are safer. Roundabouts have the added advantage of better visibility since drivers know where the cars come from. In France no signs means you have to yield to the right which is much more efficient for flow of traffic.
I once lived near a roundabout on the west side and was amazed how many near accidents I witnessed. Most drivers had no idea what a yield sign was and just barreled into the roundabout, honking at cars that actually had right-of-way. People here just don't have the intelligence for this.
People are dumb everywhere, it works in other places because they have a lot of them.
@@chadwells7562 yeah, the problem there seems to be lack of exposure to yields. Especially since they treat stops like yields anyway. In places that started adding roundabouts 10-15 years ago, familiarity has already drastically improved. Most people _do_ just develop a feel for them.
11:19 Brendan Khuri spent 7 months in juvenile detention for killing Ms Munoz. The victim reached a settlement of $18.2M with the defendant, paid by the defendants insurance and extra liability policy. Thereby socializing the loss to the rest of the state since the insurer will adjust premiums on all policy holders.
Does he still get to operate a motor vehicle or did he lose his license?
@@GaigeGrosskreutzGunClub no injunction on his motor vehicle license that i found in the court decision. though he will likely be deemed an insurable risk by all insurance carriers. however, since insurance is mandated by state, he will then be pushed to the excess market where the state assigns such risks to one of the participating insurers in the state as a cost of doing business and spreading the risk. which likely means that his future vehicular losses will come back to haunt us further.
@@kapilchhabria1727thats so fucked.
I haven't driven many roundabouts, but I've used some really busy ones where the traffic in the circle was neverending and I felt like I was going to be yielding forever! Always hated them because of those few bad experiences, loved that traffic lights meant there'd eventually be a break in car traffic for me to enter/turn 😂 And definitely not used to large multi-lane ones where I have to change lanes in a curve. Thanks for the new perspective on roundabouts!
That's why none controlled ones are the best.
Roundabouts are awesome. Where I live in Virginia, the politicians, public, and traffic engineers all love them and are sold on them. The problem here for us has been cost. A miniature neighborhood style roundabout cost estimate recently came in at $4 million. bigger ones at high traffic intersections cost at minimum $10 million. The state DOT is in control of our roads which has has a lot to do with why it's so expensive. They don't do stuff like just put bollards up, there have to be all kinds of ridiculous studies that just continually balloon the costs
@@nathang4682 $4 million? What is it with infrastructure in America being so expensive to build?
@@grahamturner2640 I think we must be using gold instead of concrete...
Let me guess, you live in Prince William or Loudon county? 😅
Real Dutch here🇳🇱. On roundabouts there are less accidents und thus less ambulance and medical costs for the city. Less traffic light maintenance, less asfalt is needed. The roundabout is placed once and then it is done. Maybe the green 🌳on the roundabout needs maintenance. This all save the city loads of money. Also traffic congestion costs money. In the city of Obdam (small) they took a roundabout away because at that place it did not work. Cities monitor/ evaluate traffic vlows and after a while they make reports and then conclude what to do.
@gerhard6105 all true and i agree but facts, logic, and being able to think about the future are usually not considerations for the state DOT unfortunately
I feel like America is over-saturated with stop signs, making people ignore them. As a Norwegian, I always make a full stop at stop signs at home. That's because I know the location of exactly one of those signs in my local area. They're not everywhere, so when I see one, I pay extra attention.
Thank you so much for your insight and thoughtful approach to trying to tackle the problem. I absolutely love this. As a Chicagoan, I'm hoping for more raised crosswalks (we have several underway, but not enough), roundabouts and modal filters.
I love navigating roundabouts on a bike. There's a bunch in downtown Upland I'm always going through. It feels so much safer because 1) cars slow down closer to my speed, so it feels more reasonable to take the lane for a few seconds, and 2) entering and exiting is all "right" turns, so I don't I have to interpret drivers' turn signals (or facial expressions in lieu of signals), or do the you-go-no-you-go-no-YOU-go-no-PLEASE-I-INSIST-just-GO-you're-already-past-the-stop-sign gesticulating. Sometimes I have to yield in heavier traffic, but usually I just get to keep cruising through a fun gentle corner.
Had my car totaled at about 5mph at a 4-way stop sign. We both went thinking we'd arrived first. When enough cars are at a 4-way junction, it's really hard to tell who's next. And some people roll through even as they're letting other cars pass. I rely on looking at the driver's face, which is ridiculous.
The Western-movie eye style.
I used to live in an area that took a number of dangerous intersections on a stroad and turned them into roundabouts, three in a row. Forced traffic to slow down while coming through and you never had to worry about power outages. Also, as a pedestrian I feel a lot safer crossing a roundabout because I only have to look for traffic coming in one direction at a time. Compare that to when I cross a stoplight intersection on the highway near my house and there's cars coming from both directions. I even think they just look nicer, since you can have flowers or a tree or a statue or something in the middle, as opposed to the parking-lot sized patch of asphalt in the middle of a stoplight intersection.
Hi. I'm from a city with many roundabouts and they are deceptively dangerous. My city is among the cities with the most traffic accidents in my country, even though it's not even among the top 10 in terms of size.
People simply don't look to the back, when they exit the roundabout. When on my bike, I get hit by a cars roughly once per year, and have at least 2 close calls each a week. My friends all have the same experience.
The city started solving this problem for some roundabouts by transforming the outer lane into bike roads with an added concrete stop in between.
Sounds like your municipality chose to implement roundabouts badly. Mine and nearby ones are equally guilty. They have mostly implemented roundabouts that accommodate only automobiles. They are slowly correcting them to better protect pedestrians, but still force cyclists to use the same paths as pedestrians, which doesn’t work that well.
There are long-established designs that protect all modes of transport: pedestrians, cyclists, automobiles. We in the US seem to have a problem with the “not invented here” mindset, rather than looking at examples of best practices and designs proved elsewhere.
That’s the path to a people centered city. You might like the RUclips channel called “Not just Bikes”.
Thanks for posting.
@@dreamervanroom people centered city... lol. All the lobbying money is stuck in the wrong hands for that.
Do you have a median in the middle that you can stop at? Otherwise I'm not seeing how you can pay attention to traffic from only one direction.
glad to see you uploading again doctor, love your videos. It is very inspiring to see you, and maybe perhaps it's inspiring me to be a traffic engineer so I will do something about it
For some context, The Walkable City came out like 12 years ago where urbanism was in a different place in the public consciousness. I feel like he would take a more heavy handed approach if rewritten now
Jeff released a 10th anniversary edition last fall with 100 more pages. Check it out.
Consider also that in the UK, it has been traditional to keep pedestrian crossings separated from road intersections. Crossings are commonly placed on the straight stretches of road between intersections. Furthermore, even when the road intersections have roundabouts, the pedestrian crossings often have traffic lights. You press a button to cross, the light goes red, the traffic stops, you cross. This is safe for pedestrians because the traffic is controlled, and convenient for vehicles because the light stays green as long as nobody is waiting to cross. Crossing at intersections is dangerous because of restricted sight lines, and because traffic can be turning at the intersection you have to look in all directions for oncoming traffic.
Ped signals also would help blind pedestrians, a group often forgotten about.
Funnily enough the UK has adopted new rules which give pedestrians priority at intersections with turning vehicles, even outside zebra crossings
Counterpoint from a born-and-bred Londoner who's been living in LA for a year. The first part of the video talks about how awesome 'flow' is. I would argue that we need to create LESS flow and MORE friction to discourage driving in general and convince people to walk, cycle, or take transit. Huge, wide, object-free "stroads" in LA where there are no pedestrians, no stores which front onto the street, stop lights that are a mile apart, and empty sidewalks due to pedestrian-hostile urban design are exactly what give the driver the feeling of invincibility. That teenager going 100mph on Olympic isn't doing that without these features ( / bugs).
Walking isn’t something the city cares about. One of the lights near me can take 10 minutes to give me the walk sign to cross. Another light i’ve seen seems to actually have a functional button to cross, but will immediately go back to “don’t cross” after you take 2 steps onto the street. There used to be more benches to rest at or at the very least some weather protection that city got rid in favor of some hostile architecture. So you end up walking a lot with the blazing sun cooking you and makes waiting for busses extra annoying. Especially if you just missed the bus and it doesn’t come for another hour at a space with lots of car traffic going all around you, no sun protection, and no place to sit.
One stop-sign intersection in Beverly Hills comes to mind: the three-way (6-way?) intersection of Beverly, Canon, and Lomitas, next to Will Rogers park. I've always found it to be one of the most civilized/low-stress intersections in the city despite how busy it is - I think the additional intersecting street makes everyone more mindful of each other, similar to what a roundabout does to drivers.
The biggest problem that's absolutely brain dead about stop signs in North America is that at many intersections ALL FOUR ROADS LEADING TO THE INTERSECTION HAVE THEM.
That makes absolutely no sense. If you're coming to a stop at an intersection it HAS to be to let someone else through.
But if everyone has to stop, who has priority now?
Does right before left not exist in North America?
We have "Right of Way" rules which means if 2 people arrive at stop signs at the same time the person on the right goes first (how does that really work in a square?, if the lane to your right is empty does that mean it's your turn?). In reality it ends up just being who ever is the most assertive at breaking through the stop sign wins because people try not to crash. Situation is far worse for 4 way stops with more than 2 people where at best everyone stops and eventually people give up and wave someone through which leads to its own set of confusion.
People that’s who it’s protecting.
Cars are not entitled
@@dreamervanroom Just fyi less people die in Europe in residential areas even though we have more people and fewer stop signs.
Right before left works because people pay attention.
That rule doesn't only apply to cars, it applies to everyone.
@@iotkualt That just sounds like a more expensive and less effective alternative ngl....
it does kinda make sense if one street has significantly more traffic than the other one, like if the less busy street only had a stop/yield and the busy one didn't then you could spend a long time waiting for all the traffic to pass but if all directions have a stop you proceed much faster
We have one roundabout within about fifty miles of where I live. The problem is that people have no idea how to properly use it and it creates a hazard. In particular, it is a two lane roundabout and people fail to realize they cannot use the outer ring to make a three quarter turn, and are not supposed to use the roundabout to do a u-turn, which causes issues.
Not supposed to U-turn?..... 😂 Who made that up...... We Dutch would tell you " you need to go the other way, so you better turn at the roundabout, that is saver". Gjezus, these Americans.....😢
@@gerhard6105 you can U-turn if you stay on the inside ring but if you go on the outside then there is a distinct possibility that on the last turn, the person on the inside lane will try to exit right into you and drive you off the road
@@WTJBlog aha, okay. Yeah multiple lanes on a roundabout do not work because of the chance of conflicts. One laned roundabouts and our Dutch turbo -roundabouts ( Wikipedia: turbo rotonde) work best. When you want to exit a roundabout, you better be in the right/outside lane. We here have to keep at the right side of the road.
THANK YOU! #1 issue I have driving in LA is all the stop signs, traffic lights, and the unnecessary need for side streets (and allowing left turns from them.) You spend more time waiting at lights or waiting on lines at the stop sign than actually driving. I timed one time that I spent 20 minutes of a 30 min drive waiting at traffic lights and 10 minutes actually in motion, so frustrating!
You consider all the side streets that people are living on 2be.. unnecessary?
Hi Karen glad you made it!
A lot of stop signs are pretty much a traffic calming measure than a safety measure
"waiting at lights or waiting on lines at the stop sign"
Those seem like very different things. You can wait 30 to 120 seconds at a traffic light, depending on signal timing; you can't spend that long at a stop sign.
@mindstalk it's having to stop and go and how it restricts the flow of travel at intersections. I've been at intersections with stop signs that back up because the volume of cars is too much for everyone to get through efficiently. For example, in Calabasas/Woodland hills, the 101 Fallbrook exit going south/east is controlled by a 4-way stop. It can back up for a quarter mile on the freeway and also on the side street, forcing you to crawl along for more than 5 to 10 minutes.
In Australia where you guys would have an all-way stop, we’d typically have a roundabout. We also have give-way intersections which allows you to legally slow and roll through if clear rather than stopping completely.
I've always thought that the North American stop sign system is brainless. I can't say that roads/streets here in the UK always make sense but at least we don't have stop signs everywhere. Most are give way (yield) and only junctions with very restricted visibility have stop signs.
6:58, and here in the Netherlands, the yield sign only applies to drivers and yield for drivers only. Not for pedestrians.
TIL I'm the only idiot that has stopped at every single stop sign I've ever encountered in my entire life.
I am from the Netherlands and we have not many 🛑. So, I stop at every stop sign because they are not there for nothing. Mostly it is a yield sign and often an equal crossing with right of was from the right. Also on parking lots. Equal crossing on a parking lot ( no stripes shark teeth or signs) also means: traffic from the right has priority because on a parking lot the road rules rule.
I go through that roundabout at Washington and 26th all the time. Definitely the smoothest and least congested intersection in the area.
I was JUST looking at your channel and lamenting about how you've not posted in a while. Thank you for the new content!
This video is a masterpiece. It conveys all the ideas I have about how dumb stops signs are that I can't figure out how to articulate other than "most stops signs could easily be yield signs". That "uncontrolled" intersection in Europe was impressive by the way. Engineers need to be taking notes.
Yay new video! This is a great video. I think traffic lights have their place in oddly shaped intersections, but I think roundabouts are also incredibly under used!
In my city rolling stops are legal for bikes and I thinks that's nice. They use repeated stop signs on the bike friendly street, and then parallel we have two higher speed one way through streets. So I get a lovely bikeable street where I can bike much faster than a car and the cars go around.
Great video as always!
Maybe a major difference is that in some places in Europe there are really hard punishments for not coming to a full stop at a stop sign.
As an example, in Sweden if you do that, or drive through a red light, or drive 30km/h or more above the speed limit, you lose your license on the spot (you get a few days in order to for example be able to drive your car home, plan for other transportation and whatnot). IIRC you lose your license for 6 months. If you repeat any combination of these offenses three times you also have to retake your license fully, going through all drivers ed and tests and whatnot like if you never had a license.
Did a google search and it seems that the lowest fine is $25 for not coming to a full stop at a stop sign in USA. That is insanely low.
What I don't get is why USA seems to rarely use yield signs.
Btw the "unregulated" intersections in Europe and elsewhere is actually regulated by that everyone has to give way to anyone coming from the right (for right hand traffic, in left hand traffic countries you give way to anyone from your left).
I think the biggest issue with LA intersections is the width. You'll see massive intersections for a two lane street. The residential streets are as wide as a 5 lane stroad in my city. LA is in desperate need of more bump outs/daylighting.
This video brought me around (heh) a little on roundabouts. I value the pedestrian experience much more than the driving one, and stoplights are actually my favorite because they're the most guaranteed thing to make a car completely stop for me if I want to walk across.
let’s gooo - such a great topic, we need more residential roundabouts
Actual roundabouts are fantastic. "Stopabouts" are a frankenmonster and are actually confusing as hell. Do you yield do the car on your left or your right? If you enter the intersection and the car on your right goes anyway and you end up hitting them, is it legally your fault because you didn't yield to the person on your right like at a normal 4-way stop? The rules for roundabouts and stop signs contradict each other
Great video. I think it's cool that you point out when another channel/person makes a mistake, because it's important to not blindly trust everything an urbanist channel says just because they were right about other things
I was going to say a raised intersection with the buffers of sidewalk on each side to act as a traffic slowing measure as well would be a good option as well and then I saw that whole part towards the end lol
In my suburb town they recently put up stop sign cameras? So like the small intersection that most of the time doesnt really need one and you can just yield... you will get a ticket for not stopping fully at?? Like if this was about safety... they havent made it any safer, they are just printing out tickets, and its so annoying because I often drive at very late hours where the street is clearly empty but im forced to... fully stop, its just so sooo annoying
Round abouts are great. but the can grind to a halt if you have 3 or 4 busy input flows of traffic. they work great with one or two.
LA resident like yourself here. There is no east/west connection, not a single one, that is not continuously jammed and almost at a crawl. You can’t comfortably and quickly use Venice, Wilshire, Santa Monica, Melrose, Beverly, none of them. I would love to see a permanent bus lane put in on, say, Santa Monica or Wilshire the entire length that runs service every 4-5 minutes instead of the citywide standard which seems to be 12-15. People need several corridors in this city that can actually move human beings, so let’s start with at least one.
I used to live in the Netherlands, and this video make me appreciate their use of painted yield arrows on the ground. The London "completely uncontrolled intersection" is actually controlled by the paint. Paint is cheaper than stop stop signs (pretty sure), and the yield protocol is much easier to navigate than trying to figure out whoever arrived at the intersection first. It also makes it easier to clarify pedestrian priority for the cross walk, whereas the signs are more vague
roundabouts are SO hard to cross as a ped, even the beautiful dutch style ones. The US is just very far from a world where cars actually use their decisionmaking to let peds go when they see them. Stop signs at least give you a warrant to cross in front of a car
Very interesting and thought provoking video. I would have liked to see more research beyond Myth-busters here. And I feel like this is both quixotic and low priority.
As a big fan of your work, and your stated objectives, I’d like to see more content around hosing, the biggest issue facing LA.
Speaking up as another pedestrian who has seen roundabouts completely screw over people who are walking or moving very slowly for whatever reason. You’ve mentioned college campuses, and I’ve seen several schools build roundabouts for their bike and skateboard traffic. Yes, it’s clearly safer for those vehicles, but it can be terrifying for pedestrians! The best mitigation I’ve seen is a spot at UCSD that splits off pedestrian traffic so that they get a normal intersection whereas bikes and boards do a roundabout… but then bikes started just using the pedestrian path. They needed bollards as modal filters I guess. 🤬
Another point to mention is some drivers don't even slow down at speed bumps, or takes them a learning experience that there is a speed bump to watch out for; or sometimes not slow down enough to make a difference.
When I was 14 I ran cross country and kind of just assumed that I was safe on the sidewalk or in a crosswalk. I was hit twice when I was 14, once in a crosswalk, another time on a sidewalk/driveway. The time I was hit in the crosswalk the driver was turning right and they didn't see me when they approached the intersection because I was running I got into the crosswalk while they were turning their head to the left making sure traffic wasn't coming that direction before they turned into the street.
On the Dakota rail trail, a bike trail west of Wayzata MN, the trail ran along a quarter mile section with eleven driveways. There was a stop sign at every one of those driveways, Fortunately, the trail was diverted to another route along a railway track due to an on ramp being installed.
Here in Germany, at intersections with no roundabout, you have to follow the rule „right before left“. Means, if two cars appear at the intersection at the same time, the car on the right goes first. Sounds a little confusing at first, but it’s super easy and works great. Stop signs in Germany are only used in super high risk situations. So, there are many solutions. But the American model is doomed to fail
I hope we can reach the jujitsu level of urban design one day 🙏🙏🙏
A topic I would loooooove to see you cover are people stopping in a lane with hazards on. Usually it's a residential street and we all know that Uber and other ride share dominate that behavior but I just can't wrap my head around the legality of that. And it's just plain dangerous for everyone involved, the stopped car and cars coming!
I just spent about two months driving in the Netherlands and I encountered a stop sign exactly TWICE.
All other instances where people would normally put a stop-sign, it had 'shark-teeth'; essentially triangles on the ground that indicate you need to yield to whomever crosses your path. Be that bicycles, pedestrians or cars.
The two places where there WAS a stop-sign, were extremely blind corners. You could literally not see a thing until you were ON the road you were crossing. So these stop-signs were basically being used to warn you about a dangerous traffic situation.
Yeah, here is one: Amsterdam, North Holland
maps.app.goo.gl/LXobRfAWwxW37BZu9?g_st=ac
No, shark teeth, yield signs and 🛑 are not to stop for pediatricians. Only for drivers ( car, bike, bicycle, truck, bus, Lorrie, horse). I am Dutch🇳🇱 and have my driving license for 30 years. Geef voorrang aan alle bestuurders. Bestuurders is drivers.
really appreciate the talib kweli reference @ 2:00
I really enjoyed the intro shot, imagining him biking while one handing an entire tripod
most if not all Stop signs should be give way signs or "Yield" if thats what give way is called in the states.
In theory that would work. In practice I don't know if drivers would slow enough.
@@mindstalk The point is that you don't need to stop, unless there is someone to give way too, and then, if that is the case you follow the normal operational order of a roundabout, which in my country is give way to the right, and in the states I would imagine it is opposite, due to driving on the other side of the road.
The video even finishes discussing a intersection in Britain that uses this method.
Great video, and I wish you did include the section in the description as part of the video as well because that is another important aspect to stop signs
stop signs are cheap and easy. Traffic lights cost money in the long run, but are relatively cheap in the short run, and don't require moving land. Roundabouts are better but by the time you need them it's often too late.
I lived in Chubbuck Idaho between 2020 and 2022, and I took full advantage of idaho stop laws.
They had 2 intersection projects in that time, a roundabout and a stop light. Both were great improvements. I think they chose the stop light at the intersection of hawthorne and quinn because they didn't want to have to move land, or maybe because that was technically in pocatello not chubbuck. idk.
My point is both were huge improvements over the stops signs that were there before. roundabouts are tricky because they take space and change land use.
There's also another roundabout in that area at 42.914, -112.452, at the intersection of hiline and mallard. It's really weird because it's 2 lanes in one direction, and one lane in the other, but cars in the two lane direction (on hiline) treat it like a road while cars perpendicular yield. In other words, the traffic going straight will NOT yield to people in the roundabout, which is a major headache, but even so, it has really good flow. It's weird that people completely reinterpret the rules of roundabouts incorrectly, but it somehow still works. If you want to turn left off of hiline, be very careful, whether you are going south turning east or going north turning west.
But roundabouts do take a lot less than a lane expansion, so I think that should be the primary selling point. That area has the worst relative traffic right about 4:30 to 5:30 pm, compared to other times when there is very little traffic.
Moving to LA I was baffled that there’s a traffic light to get into LAX. Every other airport this size is just ramps
STOP signs and having to follow the STOP signs exactly (without resorting to idaho stops etiquette) are extremely inefficient for regular bicycles. On a throttle enabled, hub motor ebike, at least It's possible to follow this rule without feeling totally frustrated.
Street rules should include bicycles, pedestrians and folks on their PEVs always having priority. Folks on bicycles and PEVs should learn to do the natural yield action, with pedestrians at crossings having priority.
Even though I had been to Europe, and had used roundabouts, I really still hated them for a long time. Even when I saw the road guy rob video I was like "I like traffic lights/stop signs better because when traffic NEVER stops it's so hard to cross the street, no one ever stops for you, at least with a light I get a chance" however I did more research and even road guy rob address this, a roundabout on 5 lane street makes a street that is really hard for pedestrians to cross. The roundabouts near me that I hated are 5 lane roads running into a roundabout. So putting a roundabout on a 5-lane street really is not going to work for pedestrians. 3 lanes or less work great, 4+ lanes don't work for pedestrians. So a 5 lane road put on a 3 lane diet it will work, but if you just put a roundabout on a 5 lane street pedestrians will not be able to cross it, you need something more to make it work. I haven't really found a good solution to this one yet, still looking. The best solution I found is we should just not make 5 lane roads period, but this is a challenge.
Also, most stopsigns should really be yield signs, but the USA stopped putting in yield signs a long time ago, most people wouldn't even know what to do if they saw one, much less draw them from memory. Stop signs should be a lot more rare than they are.
For some busy intersection, green light is just too short. It will never allow enough cars to pass so cars just pile up endlessly. Causing new traffic gems down the line.
That's why uncontrolled intersection is the best one. Traffic never stops even if it's a busy one. People are smart enough to yield or to squeeze in.
I literally just binged all ur videos so this is a nice surprise lol.
I don’t know what happened to California. In the past drivers were required to stop if a pedestrian steps off the curb. I remember having six lines of traffic in two directions stopped for me when I first came to California. It was so embarrassing.
Bring back the law that drivers have to stop for people!
You’re the kid and I’m teaching the kid to not be a dummy. People are more important than cars.
Raised in Holland I learned the rule to yield to traffic coming from the right. And applying rules of priority (e.g. between a tram, pedestrian, bicyclist, car). And then quite a few more rules. Mind buggling situations sometimes that I had to deal with safely during my driving test. I failed 3 times... Driving tests, both practical and theory, are a joke in the USA. 🛑 signs are a dumb band-aid for this lack of training. I also lived in India for 10 years where I happily would scooter through super-busy intersections with no signs, no traffic lights, and no striping on the pavement. Somehow I never got hit, nor did I see accidents. I don't have a good explanation for it why it works there mostly (even with sleeping dogs on the pavement, holy cows strolling wherever, rickshaws, scooters, bicyclists, trucks, buses, cars, pedestrians, potholes - and I probably forget some. I certainly had way more agency in Indian traffic, forced to have a 360 degrees view all the time.
These are also WAAAAY safer and more fun for motorcycles. Because if you do NOT have a stop sign, someone else who is SUPPOSED to stop can easily blow through and crush you without any time to meaningfully react. Roundabouts limit the number and direction of lanes you need to pay attention to at the same time.
Bring on the roundabouts! The stop signs and signaled intersections in my neighborhood in Palms are ridiculous, as roundabouts would be so much better to for traffic and pedestrians in many if not most of them.
0:00 I was thinking the speaker was the guy who just entered frame from the left. But no, that was the guy that was about to look like he just witnessed a guy on a bike steal someone's camera.
New school year, new video?
These practices can be applied to my snow city as well!
Every time I sit at a light I think about how insanely inefficient they are. I seriously don't get why we have to do everything the worst way possible in the U.S.
Another consideration, even without "naked" intersections, is having the least traveled route yield at intersections. Most traveled has right of way. That is how it's done someplaces in Europe.
But the biggest issue with the US is litigation, someone has to be at fault for the lawsuit.
Bring on the roundabouts!
I agree with most of this but some things do stick out.
1: Taking away agency with a stop sign? Why is this such a big point to bring it up twice? If car drivers could be trusted with how and when they move their vehicles, we wouldn't need traffic lights either. Taking agency away from them is the point.
2: Treating drivers like dummies. You should always treat the average car driver like an dummy when designing intersections, because one day there will be an absolute idiot, who should not be able to make the intersection unsafe for everyone else. That's why I think roundabouts are so much better: even the worst driver still has to drive around the middle island or his tires get seriously damaged. It's designed to be idiot-resistant.
In Santa Ana there's 4 stop lights within 200 feet of each other. One services a street for a single truck dealer, the next is a street from a neighborhood that could easily enter from the nearby street and then a light to service the now defunct newspaper. Not sure why a few cars need to stop a massive flow of traffic from the freeway onto a main street that services two schools, the local DMV and huge industrial sector. All the cars could be directed into the flow of the street and turn around slightly down the road, but I guess they need to obstruct the severely congested road so that they can not be inconvenienced in case they need to go left.
They added roundabouts to part of my county in Missouri. Nobody knows how to use them and people constantly pull out right in front of me. They also take a lot of space.
My city (Burlington, VT) just built a whole new street along the alignment of a planned but delayed-for-decades and never built as such urban freeway. Four signalized intersections in the course of less than two miles, with stop lines painted RIDICULOUSLY far back from the intersection and enough room at each one to have easily been roundabouts.
Where I came from 4 way intersections get 2 STOP signs and 2 GIVE WAY signs so people know who has priority. USA is the only country I have been to have 4 STOP signs converging and nobody knows who should move first. Next thing you know all 4 try to start at the same time.
You’re so common sense and real. I fw your videos so much.
11:44, ofcourse there must be no 🛑 at a roundabout......
was really cool and unexpected to see the clip of the bollards filtering traffic in cambridge, i used to bike through there all the time :')
great video, although i echo the sentiment of others that roundabouts are a little scarier as a pedestrian. the ones with crossing islands are a bit better but i usually end up waiting a long time for a gap in traffic either way
Uhm, in Poland we use give way (yield) and priority road signs for many intersections. Smaller intersections have the "give way to traffic from the right" rule. No four way stops possible here lol. Stop signs are used when the visibility is limited or at railway crossings withought signals (though some authorities illegally put stops signs on ones with signals and these are ignored, therefore when a stop sign is put when barriers are broken, it is ignored). Stop signs are obeyed in my country more than in the US because they aren't overused.
"Uncontrolled" intersections, aka a normal "two way" intersection with a yield sign instead of a stop sign, make complete sense, and there is no reason we can't replace all two-way stops with yield signs. Traffic calming can follow. Stop signs are just yield signs that force their users to break the law.
I also believe four way yields, aka true uncontrolled intersections, make complete sense, once we decide on a way to let drivers know that the absence of a sign doesn't mean they have the right of way. You could simply put up a yield sign with an "all way" tab below, and forgo the traffic circle, which has been proven to make intersections less safe for cycling, and of course, makes it a PITA to turn left.
Lastly, I strongly disagree that a stop-as-yield law for bikes is unsafe. We know you don't stop when the camera isn't rolling, and you can safely use your judgement to wait for the cars that don't see you. Unless we immediately abolish 95% of stop signs, bicycles should be exempted from them, as everyone ignores them, making cycling inherently illegal, and that is just not okay.
Long Beach does great in this regard, they've got a lot of roundabouts and obviously the giant traffic circle that for some reason everyone hates. LGB has a roundabout that I go through everyday on my bike that works great as well, from my bike to semi trucks. I'm not sure about taking out stop lights for roundabouts, though you make a convincing argument, but roundabouts should be used way more often than stop signs.
The street I live on has a 4 way stop that basically everyone ignores and is the only way to get to my kid's school, and there's no sidewalks around. It's infuriating seeing how many people completely ignore the stop sign because if/when I want him to walk to school that would be the biggest danger point of the 15 minute walk. It's an unnecessarily large intersection and a roundabout would be perfect for there.
5:09 Yes! Motorists don't get this. Stopping and starting on a bike take _a lot_ of effort. And slows you down massively. It is not analogous to stopping in a car. And the risk presented by a bike rolling through is negligible compared with a motorist doing the same.
The main reason we don't have roundabouts in America is because Police and Fire departments don't like them. Emergency vehicles want to be able to fly though intersections without slowing down.
Yes, this is also the reason certain streets haven't had, & never will get, speed bumps put on them.
That's such a stupid reasoning, first of all with roundabout they aren't stuck behind a red light, the flow is continuous, if it's a small intersection install a mini-roudabout that can be driven over by a big vehicle, if it's a big intersection put a multi-lane roundabout with a bus lane so they can go fast... Heck, you might find some roundabouts in Europe with a central way for buses than can be used by emergency services/police
This is also why fire and police departments heavily push back on bike paths, but not just bikes pointed out these become alternate emergency lanes when emergency vehicles are blocked by car traffic. It's much easier for pedestrians and cyclists to move out of the way of emergency vehicles than for motor vehicles.
Great video, let's see more roundabouts and yields and pedestrian crossings
it's wild how in literally everywhere else that isn't the US, stop signs are very seldom used and unsignalized intersections are usually marked with yield and priority road signs - if you see a stop sign it basically says that the intersection might be dangerous or the visibility might be poor and you need to be careful
but in the us stop signs are all over the place for some reason? and whatever the hell is a 4-way stop is a thing?
Crossing a street should "feel" dangerous. It is a potentially life ending endeavor. Just like a million other ordinary events we encounter every day. Our awareness of danger helps to keep us alive.
I miss my city filled with roundabouts. Traffic never stopped, then I moved to California. Where it takes 25 minutes to go 5 minutes away
the solution is protected intersections/roundabouts, timed lights, and adding other methods of transportation/removing roads to decrease demand, thats literally all of it