The Creepy Implications of Time Travel Rom-Coms
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- Опубликовано: 18 фев 2023
- It's about time we talk about my mortal enemy: About Time (and the horror of time loop movies like it)! The Time Traveller's Wife, Groundhog Day, 50 First Dates... none of you are safe!
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A lot of these time travel movies apply this video game logic in their approach to love. They're all based on this idea that with enough repetitions any man can win over any woman because all they need is to discover the right combination of actions and dialogue options to unlock her. That's also the kind of attitude a lot of angry nice guys and incels on the internet seem to have in real life, too, which is why they persist in their pursuit of women who have already rejected them and express frustration about not getting what they want even though they're doing all the things.
I think TV programmes often apply the same logic: "If I keep persisting, she'll eventually fall in love with me."
Think of Leonard and Penny in the Big Bang Theory as an example of this. In the early series, Leonard (and often his friends too) persistently badger Penny even though she clearly doesn't feel the same way (repeat for basically every female character they meet). It's almost like a competition for female affection - whoever hits on the right combination of moves wins the girl.
Eventually Penny relents when she sees that Leonard "isn't like other guys". This is kind of addressed in later series, but not fully, when Penny doesn't count their first kiss, because she was drunk and had just split up with her boyfriend.
In later series, all the characters do seem to become more 3-dimensional compared to their early versions. However, the common theme of most romantic relationships resenting their partners and trying to manipulate them remains and they don't really seem to share any common interests.
Amy and Sheldon's relationship actually seems like the healthiest with shared interests and actual communication about expectations, but they are painted as the weird couple existing outside of society's norms.
"You can achieve anything you want with enough hard work" Oh look it's the American Dream but applied to romantic relationships.
Putting it like this is why I never felt great about visual novels that require more than one playthrough to romance a character
We all just live in the time line of their first attempt.
Uh 12 minutes or hours or whatever that was called?
It always blows my mind that Tim's dad used his time travelling powers to read every book in existence and Tim proceeds to use it to... get a girl...
That's simply wrong. He got the girl, then went back in time to help out his friend, messed up the time lines and missed meeting the girl of his dream.
The show makes it perfectly clear with Margot Robbie's character that one cannot get the girl with the right combination of actions and circumstances.
I'd do what the dad did.
@@crowe3627 Yeah lmao. It's like these people didn't watch the movie. Tim NEVER used time travel to successfully "get the girl." In fact the whole message by the end of the film is that using time travel that way just doesn't work.
Holy shit the book thing is brilliant. You could master literally any skill and Tim uses it to manipulate women
@@crowe3627but he did use it to get a girl
For anyone watching this and thinking "Eh, it's just movies, it's nbd." There is a version of this that happens in RL. At least, it happened to me. No, nobody actively 'time traveled'... But twice now, I've met people online who seemed really cool and seemed to know all the right answers... only to discover a bit later on that I'd actually known them under different screen names before and we didn't get on at all the first time. Two different times, two different people approached me online, made a mess of things, vanished (one ghosted, I told the other to piss off after they turned out to be legitimately abusive), then created whole new accounts and approached me AGAIN later (one was a few months, the other was over a year later) in an attempt to get it right 'the second time around'. I got very lucky and tend to be fairly observant, so I was able to put 2 and 2 together with both of them eventually, but from what I've heard this stuff happens to a lot of people online.. It's twisted and really makes for some nasty trust issues moving forward.
Omg you should pitch this to a horror movie studio ASAP! 😱
SO GLAD YOU FIGURED IT OUT!
+
@@lkf8799 that's a fucked up thing to say about someone's real abusive relationship
I'm sorry that happened and I feel for you. My stalker ex also tried to do that with me, but I realized it was them almost immediately. Still, it's very paranoia-inducing to have worry about stuff like that
You ('ve) Got Mail (ed)
Howl's Moving Castle is a good "Time Travel Rom-Com" because Sophie doesn't even know that she had traveled through time to tell Howl to find her and Howl was just doing what Sophie told him to do. The conflict, potential manipulation, and drama comes from Howl simply being himself and Sophie being cursed.
That never would've crossed my mind but so accurate.
I mean ... In the movie sure. In the book it's an actual isekai and Howl is actually Howell Jenkins from Wales.
@kitmakin5553 LOL yeah but he's just going to a different place/universe. Sophie is still the time traveler.
@@brooklyn113 I mean ... He's going from 1970s/80s Wales to a world that's economically/socially/technologically 18/19th century...
@kitmakin5553 but that would be an issekai, the world has magic and different logic. If his Wales had magic sure but it has video games.
So my mom got me 50 First Dates on DVD when I was a teenager. Even at the time I was perplexed that nobody else seemed to be as horrified by the premise as I was. This movie actually came up the other day with my husband. And he didn’t seem to get it until I laid out why the premise was just so icky and horrific to me.
Like not only manipulating her but getting her father involved and stranding her on a boat with a video telling her how happy she is. And don’t even get me started on the fact that they had a kid! Like imagine waking up one day 6 months pregnant with no indication how this has happened overnight, that is honestly a fucking nightmare.
That last scene is the only part of the movie that stuck with me. Truley gut wrenching
Wasn’t it supposed to be a horror film originally? It essentially remained one. I feel like Sandler is aware it is.
50 first dates and Old, both had me gagging as a survivor of csa.
Emotional memory is in a different location in the brain than actual memory and I’ve seen a couple of people with the condition that the movie was (mostly inaccurately) based on appreciate it for showing that distinction. Wouldn’t you think it’d be more of a nightmare to wake up suddenly so much older and having to learn that you can’t do anything with your life every single day? And generally people tend to infantalise the character when she doesn’t need to be
@@Snoozl I feel like there /is/ something to that, but I still think having children should've been off the table for her condition, or at the very least giving birth to them herself. Pregnancy and giving birth are already body horror enough without going to bed a 16 year old and waking up a 20-something heavily pregnant woman.
My favourite thing about the director's cut of The Butterfly Effect is the line about his mother having had multiple miscarriages before she had him, implying all her pregnancies might have been time-travelling kiddos, too. And they also ended their own existence. Brutal.
Poor mom! That must have been heartbreaking to go through.
Similiarly happens in TTW. She has numerous miscarriages.
While still in lockdown, I imagined a time loop story where the protagonist didn't realize he was in a time loop, because every day was the same. He dropped out of school and didn't have a job, so he just played video games all day. After working through his back catalog on Steam and any game he could beat in the space of the loop, he started playing multiplayer games like Team Fortress 2. And then one of the other players messaged him about how much he'd improved over the last few cycles and invites him into a forum/discord server with other people trapped in the loop.
It didn't take me long to realize that the story was actually about depression.
Sounds like a good story!
Well, it's hardly a loop if he keeps playing different games
The concept is good but there have to be some elements or markers which would point out that it is a loop.
Or if the goal is to make the reader/audience believe they're reading/watching a sci-fi time loop story, there has to be something that suggests that before the reveal that it is in fact actually a story about depression. The reveal would be more impactful that way
@@may.k_me since steam shows how many hours of play time a game has, I guess that can be a marker that it is a loop, also the lost progress if they revisit a game.
This is brilliant! I'd love to read it if you write it.
As a survivor of extremely young csa and grooming. The time travelers wife is triggering af. And 50 first dates is horrific. As she can not continue any consent. Imagine waking up and being 6 months pregnant and not remembering the relationship, or being able to consent to the pregnancy. As a child, it horrified me.
Especially since they mention how horrifying it would be to wake up old and not know why. Now, why is being pregnant and having a child different? Also how is he going to take care of the child *and* her?
Well people live with memory issues,it is scary but they continue on, i do think most adam Sandler movies are kinda icky but there are ways for someone to have a consensual relationship and family with memory problems
Lucky tho
There's literally a line in 50 First Dates where Drew Barrymore makes the pregnancy horror point to argue against continuing the relationship. So the movie knew - and did it anyway!!
i watched the time traveller's wife with my mum when i was in my early teens, i knew it freaked me out & i didn't like it but couldn't work out why it terrified me so much & felt personal until i abt a year ago when i started having traumatic memories :(
When I first watched About Time, I kept waiting for the twist where Rachel McAdams finds out her husband used time travel to woo her and is horrified but it never came
And if it did, he'd likely just travel back and redo things in a way that would ensure she didn't know.
She probably wouldn’t belive him
I ultimately just don’t think there was a way for the film to address it without spending 15 minutes on a pointless plot diversion.
They show he can win Rachel McAdam’s characters affection without manipulation and they show her having some discomfort with the man she otherwise ends up dating telegraphing to us the audience that he’s not right for her.
@@harrymayall6156 Addressing the yikesness of Tim's behavior would only be a small plot diversion if they wanted to keep the film as a romantic comedy. When I first watched the film, I wasn't expecting it to stay a rom-com because the idea of using time travel to make everything go your way seemed to angsty.
I thought using time-travel to explore how to move on from trauma and grief, like Tim had to do with his sister and then father, was a nice idea. I wish the film went further with the theme of accepting what you can't change and applied that with Tim's relationship with Mary.
Why would you be horrified if you have no problem with the outcome? Let's get real, forget the concept of "romance" if most people honestly had the cheat of foreknowledge to become successful at ANYTHING they would use it without hesitation regardless of any morals they had about cheating. The only reason people answer the question "if you had your life to live over again would you change anything?" {no}, is only because they like how it turned out.
"it's not brushing! i'm grooming her." WOW I SURE AM GLAD THAT THE WRITERS ARE AWARE OF HOW CREEPY THE PLOT IS YET CONTINUE TO MAKE IT AN IDEALIZED ROMANCE THAT'S SO COOL AND NORMAL.
I haven't seen the movie but it's one of my favourite books. I haven't seen the movie because I couldn't imagine it being done well.
It's vital to understanding the book and their relationship that Henry has zero control. Not just about when and where he goes but also his ability to change outcomes. (It's actually hinted at that there is a slim possibility that he could effect things but for the sake of his sanity he has to believe that he can't. Vital for someone forced to watch the gruesome death of his mother over and over and over.)
At no point does Henry have any agency in his relationship with Clare. He first meets her in his late 20's and she's this woman who knows all about him, their past (his future past) and their actual shared future. This situation is played off as comedic but it's a bit disturbing. Later, because he can't change anything, when he goes back to the past where she is a child, he has to follow the script that he knows exists. Henry never actually chooses Clare. She shows up in his life knowing they will be together and he is forced to go back into the past and lay the ground work for that.
Clare on the other hand has agency. When they are parted for a few years and she encounters him, she could choose to not approach him. But she does. In a metaphor for their relationship, Clare has the opportunity to alter a drawing that she knows exists in the future. But again, she chooses to not change the future in even a small way. And in what I think is maybe the most disturbing aspect of her agency, against all reason she continues to get pregnant over and over again, eventually against Henry's wishes. In the end, her final successful pregnancy is brought about with Henry not consenting to it.
From what I've heard the movie does not handle it well. And yes, it's problematic in the book. And they explore that quite a bit. There is a lot of problematic stuff in the book including forcing Henry non-consensually to be a father. (Yes, he wants to be a father. The issue is the extraordinarily dangerous pregnancies and losses that Clare experiences. But Henry never has a choice in this. Clare ends up basically stealing his sperm in a roundabout time travelling way in order to get pregnant again.)
Well, moffat is a giant asshole, so.
Is the show EP-ed by Moffat?
Big Bang Theory did it all the time, but instead the lampshading was about how much of an a**hole the guy in question was
I mean, Stephen "the Doctor meets all his romantic interests as children and they become obsessed with him" Moffat was involved. He has had PLENTY of feedback about that particular dynamic and still seems to adore it and recyle it in perpetuity. Getting to adapt The Time Traveller's Wife must be the highlight of his career
There's a great Korean webcomic I read years ago called Happy if you Died about two people stuck in a time loop; the main character and her awful boss. Every time the boss dies, they would go back in time together and she'd have to figure out how to keep him alive. She does not love him (and actually at best barely tolerates him) even as her boss starts to develop feelings for her, and she does her best to have a relationship with the person she actually loves in spite of the time loop. I thought it was a great take on time loop stories as it looked into how the time loop affected both characters differently, how they dealt with it, and how they grew as people because and in spite of it.
Aw I wanna read now
What platform did you read this on?
Did they get together in the end? 😑
I am sure this is a kdrama or cdrama too I remember watching it sometime ago
If she dies, does the time loop stop? I
I feel like 50 First Dates was *okay* (not perfect) up until the destruction of the diary. She was writing to herself and everything she ever did was something she herself was aware of and consenting to with the knowledge of each day she'd experienced. A lot of people with memory issues have to develop ways to talk to themselves, so I don't think it's entirely doomed as long as that option is there. But getting rid of that because she wanted to stop, and him pursuing her anyway, was where it became uncomfortable to me.
That’s a really insightful point, imo. Lucy had found a way of living a life that allowed for self-knowledge and agency, and because he won’t agree to her decision, she feels the only option is to cut herself off from Herself.
This!
I agree! I think one of the messages of the movie is that she does still have agency and a life to live despite her memory problems, and writing a diary every day helped her sort through that (though, as mentioned here, such a diary might be able to be manipulated). But the idea that just because she has dreams of him means she consents to continuing their relationship is really problematic.
I agree. Adam Sandler's character is not perfect, but he does grapple with how to ethically date someone with a mental health problem. He pushes Lucy's family to be honest with her, and not lie to her each day. He never has sex with her under false pretenses. It is shown that him repeating something that pleased Lucy before does not automatically work again (unlike Groundhog Day), and she is quite capable of rejecting him. He encourages her not to destroy her diary, but does not stop her as it is her diary and her choice to lie to herself. The main reason she breaks up with him was because he was putting off his research trip and she felt she was holding him back. (This is a bit of a problem with her taking away his agency too, by the way - he gets to decide whether to prioritize work or his relationship). The ending showing them on the boat happens a bit fast, but I interpreted it to show that they had problem-solved together and come up with a solution that worked for them both, while avoiding the trope of love curing a mental illness.
Okay, as someone who has never watched It's About Time, watching this video and learning about the movie is _wild._ Rowan will be like, "He never told her," and I'll be like "He never told her about how he almost slept with another woman???" and then she'll be like *"He never told her about the time travel."* And then I'm like, *_"HE NEVER TOLD HER ABOUT THE TIME TRAVEL?????????"_*
And then later Rowan reminds the audience that the female family members don't have the time powers and I'm like, "The guys never used their powers to help their sisters and wives and moms and daughters????" and then she'll just be like, *"They don't even know the men have powers!"* and I'm left with my jaw on the floor like, *_"THEY DON'T EVEN GET TO KNOW THEIR BROTHERS AND HUSBANDS AND DADS AND SONS HAVE TIME TRAVEL POWERS?????????????"_* Like, it was already stated earlier that Tim never told his wife, but I thought that was just him!
I know this is ranty and all but it's just mind-boggling how every new fact I learn about this movie's toxicity never fails to be exponentially worse than I expected it to be
Also, new drinking game: Take a shot every time Rowan says "It's About Time doesn't do too well on this front"
I had never heard of the movie before now, so the only thing I know about it is that it doesn't do too well on a lot of fronts.
It was one of those movies that had a trailer that pretty much describes the main points of the entire plot and I haven't seen the full thing mainly because the trailer alone creeped me out to within an inch of my life. Also Richard Curtis is trash and everything he does is trash. (Blackadder notwithstanding).
i had the exact same reactions, now i kind of want to watch its about time just to grasp how insane all those things are lol
@@leeburger5461 it’s a morbid curiosity- we know how bad every action ends up being, so can anything in the movie itself make it justified?
I never even attempted to watch it (or the Time Traveller's Wife) despite adoring time travel films specifically because "man uses time travel specifically to get with woman who he has decided has to be with him" is only a plot that works when it ends "only to find she won't love him like that no matter what he does" or "only to realise their relationship is a sham/he is harming her and let her go"
As a lover of About Time I feel personally attacked by how correct Rowan is in this video
Same! As soon as I saw the thumbnail I knew it's gonna be painful
it's my fave film 😭
I LOVE that movie, and I honestly think this video has kinda ruined it for me. I liked it though
I didn’t see it until relatively recently and I kinda simultaneously enjoyed it while being like what the fuck lmao.
yeah it doesn't seem to do too well on many fronts
The pregnancy of the Drew Barrymore character has always bothered me. I think about it every time I am reminded of the movie. Waking up 9 months pregnant would be horrifying.
What if she never wanted kids, and then suddenly... poof. Also, who the eff are you, husband?
I took a “Utopias/Dystopias” class in college, and my professor told us to look for utopian themes in 50 First Dates. I…was less than thrilled with the movie, and you’ve articulated why. It’s utopian for him, but dystopian for her.
I can't see how it could be utopian for Sandler's character to have the person you love so much forget you by the next day every day, know she won't remember their wedding, forgets their child everyday etc. Sounds like a dystopian for him as well to me.
@@PinkSakuraBunnie I think it was about yearning for a fresh start/things never getting stale in life? And to be fair, he told us to look for utopian themes in a lot of different media, including Minecraft.
@@PinkSakuraBunnie I don't think you can truly love someone in that state. Not romantically. Because they don't have the capacity to form such a bond - it would be extremely controlling and manipulative from one side, precisely as it is in the movie
It's utopian for him because he can have a wife who doesn't remember anything bad he's done, can be moved around at will, and won't be able to hold him accountable for anything. Those are perfect traits for someone who only cares about controlling the object of their obsession
@@RafaelGarcia022 Henry doesn't do any of the things you listed in this post...
@@RafaelGarcia022ahh so it's a different side of the same coin
I don't think Groundhog Day tries to portray his time jumping attempts to whoo Rita as good or successful at all... he fails every time until he realizes what he's doing is futile and disingenuous and, even without knowing he's time jumping, she can *feel* that. He was motivated by attraction rather than any kind of love. It also alludes to the fact that as he attempts to whoo her over and over, he actually does get to her know her as person, does fall in love with her and realizes she deserves better than what he's doing to her. He stops, instead focusing on improving himself and becoming a better, kinder person, which ends up attracting her to him in the long run. He isn't rewarded for manipulating her through time jumps, he's rewarded for looking in the mirror and becoming the kind of person she deserves to love.
I honestly wish every incel would watch this movie and take the hint, but they're incels so they are likely going to completely miss anything except "so all I need is time travel?"
Still tho, using a romantic/sexual relationship with a woman as a "reward"…
@@lyrablack8621 that was how he viewed it initially. I very much got the impression he did not consider her a reward at the end. If the viewer walked away with that, I don't think there's much the writer or director could have done and it may be an issue with the viewer... It was literally the point of the movie.
I agree with you completely. The point of groundhog day was learning to go into a relationship trying to meet the other person's needs rather than selfishly viewing the woman as an object for you to possess.
I agree that this is the message most people take away from the movie; that actively trying to manipulate Rita was bad, and trying to improve himself was good. And I don't think the movie is bad, or that the overall message is terrible or anything. But there is still something troubling about the fact that the movie's version of a "happy ending" still relies on Rita. If we're really looking at what people might take away from that, it seems to me that the message leans toward "you should improve yourself because that's how you get the life you want right now; because that's how you get the girl." But why does he need the girl? Why is it important for Rita to want him, why is that central to the movie? It gets a bit lost in all the time travel, but shouldn't it matter what Rita thought of him in the first place? Hasn't she lost some autonomy here?
Like, in real life, if someone rejects you, and you value the autonomy of that person and decide to try to genuinely improve yourself and your own life, odds are you're not going to end up with that person because you have moved on (and they weren't interested!). A person who rejects you in real life will never be presented with some opportunity to see the ways you may have grown down the line, and in fact the ways you grow might not matter because a relationship is not something you earn but something two people have to choose. That choice involves things like a sense of compatibility, comfort, shared values, shared interests, simple attraction, goals/what you want in life, just how both people are feeling at any given time, and any number of amorphous things ("vibes," if you will). My point is, the narrative of "the guy getting the girl" is inherently flawed because life shouldn't be about getting "the" girl (particularly when the girl HAS REJECTED YOU, which people are being taught not to genuinely respect). Life shouldn't even be about getting "a girl"; your life should be about you!
Life should be about learning about yourself, improving yourself, living a life aligned with your values, making the world a better place, figuring out what you really want and what brings you joy - and if that involves other people, that's great! But other people cannot and should not be responsible for your entire happiness. Your happy ending shouldn't require the romantic love of the girl who wasn't interested. Whether you're actively trying to manipulate someone else into doing what you want (thinking that will make you happy), or you're waiting around for someone else to choose to make you happy (perhaps internally hoping that will be a certain someone), you're still putting your happiness in someone else's hands. I think we need more media that communicates "you should improve yourself and genuinely focus on YOURSELF, which may involve de-centering your romantic life, because taking an active approach to your life is the best way to be a good, kind, happy, fulfilled human being."
@@val.628 that's what I'm saying
Allosexuals, especially allosexual men, need to learn the difference between love, compassion, lust, and obsession. If you're manipulating a woman to get her to be with you (whether that means marriage or sex), you don't love her.
And are actively abusing her.
No, cis-het men just need to be excised from society for the safety of everyone else. That Rick & Morty episode with this exact premise has the correct idea of what human civilization should do. The feral creatures that violently rape, destroy, and kill everything they see aren't too far off from how the average heterosexual human male is.
Allosexual alloromantics you mean. Allosexual aromantics know the difference lol
I take it you aren't allosexual. There's a huge overlap between all of these feelings and men aren't socialized to separate and be aware of, well feelings in general.
I would say it's more that people who have considered whether they are aspec are the only ones who even have an inkling of the difference. Whether they actually decided they were aspec or not isn't the relevant factor, it's whether they've considered the question of "do I experience sexual attraction/romantic interest?"
I think it's worth noting that the usage of the time loop romance device, like the "i'm in love with my friend but they're seeing someone else" plot device, is really quite gendered.
If the time traveler is a woman, the story line is more likely to be about her A. learning to stop forcing a path that will never serve her and accept things as they are and/or B. fixing herself and letting "the right one" love her. That means that the love interest maintains a great deal of agency even when they (almost always he) don't know about the time loop. It also means that she quite often doesn't know who "the right one" for her is until the time loop more or less locks her into paying attention to him, like a metaphysical yentl making you the same match over and over.
If the time traveler is a man, however, the story is more likely to be about him fixing himself and curating an ideal experience explicitly to draw "the right one" into his life, as Tim does in About Time. As you point out, that gives the love interest very little agency in their (almost always her) love life, and frames her as at best a recipient of his attentions. Interestingly, it also reinforces this idea of a woman who doesn't know who "the right one" for her is until he manipulates her into seeing him in the correct light.
Whether he is the time traveler or the non-traveling hetero love interest, they both assume that it is a man's place to choose a partner and initiate the relationship, while a woman's role is to passively evaluate and accept or reject the relationship offered.
its almost like the film industry/society is incredibly uncomfortable with female agency and power. Or "demonic, succubus ways " lol
I think this is an interesting observation! A friend made a similar observation about "transported to a fantasy world" stories (more common in anime). When it's a girl who gets transported, it's about her coming of age, growing up, facing hardships that ultimately make her more confident and self-assured and better able to handle her life when she gets back to her own world (which is almost always the goal and generally this is how it ends). While, if it's a guy main character, it tends to be more of a power fantasy, where he and his skills simply weren't appreciated by people in his former life but turn out to be exactly what is needed in the fantasy world, where he already starts out powerful and on top, and has no desire to return to his previous life.
@@superaarthi Fr tho,, it's why I have a problem with harem isekais in general. The male lead almost never grows in a meaningful way, it's all just a mindless power fantasy that teaches the (assumed) male viewer nothing. The only exception I can think of at the moment is Re:Zero
I still say that at the very least about time’s version of the “fuck around until your love interest is forced into a relationship with you” plot only has him do weird shit pre dating, as opposed to “groom your child wife into a relationship”
I understand where you're coming from to a degree...but how is a woman exercising her freedom of will and choice to accept or reject a relationship passive?? I am genuinely asking.
If you compare most of these stories to The Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, you will understand how creepy it is, The doctor that invented the memory erasure has used it multiple times on his assistant and she is none the wiser, getting back into relationships with him and repeatedly breaking up with him.
great movie
Jim Carrey is a comedian *and* a _drama actor._
The point of the movie is that if you erase your memory you don't learn from your mistakes and repeat them. What that has to do with the time travel rom-coms exactly?
@@charlescole645 time travel in the sense that the main character resets themselves to a past state, "repeating themselves." Romantic in the sense that it deals with a romantic relationship and the implications thereof. And a comedy because Carrey is naturally funny, even if that's not all he does.
I'm just now realizing that the only time travel media I've ever liked is Life Is Strange, and maybe this is why! In the game, Chloe makes jokes about how Max might go back in time to "make a move on me without me knowing" but Max thinks this is gross and she's always honest with Chloe when she goes back in time to change something. There's always going to be some level of emotional manipulation involved in time travel but I like that Max was cognizant of it and tried to avoid it whenever possible
You can choose to be a bad Max though
Max literally throughout the game manipulates the people around her to get her ideal outcome. Even if that’s saving Chloe (who is a heavily flawed individual who has proven time and time again that she is not above using people). At the end of the game it leaves you with two possible decisions. Save Chloe and kill the rest of the town or let Chloe die and let the people of the town live the rest of their lives. I’m going to go deeper here. Max is somewhat of a terrible person in General if this was to be in perspective of any general member of the town. Imagine at one moment you had a happy family, kids , husband,wife. And all of a sudden find yourself having none of that because one girl decided to save someone who in the grand scheme of possible events isn’t worth the deaths of multiple innocent people.
@@mattdutoit9665 I was specifically referring to the romantic relationship between Max and Chloe and how it relates to time travel, not the greater moral implications of Max's time traveling. Yes, no matter your play style, she is too nosy and invasive. But you have to remember that this is a choice based game, so if you decide to do an "evil Max" playthrough, you can't necessarily call that the canon Max, just as the "pacifist Max" can't be considered canon either. The only thing that matters is the way YOU play the game. The way I played it is to only use time travel if it benefits people. That of course brings up the moral dilemma of whether it's okay to mess with time even if it leaves the person better off than when they started, would it be more moral to not use your powers and leave them feeling upset? The game doesn't tell you how you should feel about this, it's your interpretation.
@@mattdutoit9665 and for the record, I always sacrifice Chloe to save the town, even though I love Chloe, because I agree that it's the morally just thing to do
@@BrandiG31 I agree with most of this but I have a couple hiccups. Max choosing to meddle in the lives of the people of the town itself is highest intrusive and her inability to see them as complex people who’s problems can’t just be fixed for the sake of fixing if you get where I’m coming from. The greatest example of this is Max’s decision to bring back Chloe’s father which is a set event that happened no matter what Version of Max you choose to play as. So it would be fair to assume that, that one of many set decisions Max’s make no matter what you version of her you pick to play as is a glimpse into who she is as an actual character. But to dive even deeper into it. Max’s decision that Chloe life would be better with her Father still in her life is a major defining moment in the game and in Max’s overall development as a character. Because it highlights her egotistical (tho in her defence it does come from a place of somewhat kindness) mindset that she knows what’s best for the peoples around her. This decision leads to Max’s ideal world for herself until she comes to realise that Chloe has been paralysed from the neck down. She has to grapple with the fact that her best friend would rather die then live on like that. And Max has the choose of killing her or letting the alternative version of Chloe alive while she goes back and fixes *Her* mistakes. All this happened because Max thought she new what was best for the people in her life. And if I remember correctly she doesn’t tell Chloe about what she did. I might be wrong on this part.
When you started talking about "the Timetraveller's Wife" it reminded me of the movie "Big" (Tom Hanks).
In it, the main character is a 12 year old boy who wants to become a grown up and skip the pain of being bullied in school. He turns 25 overnight yet remains mentally young. He eventually gets a job as a toy designer, the company mistaking his juvenile creativity for genius. He is seduced by a female coworker, who despite of his obvious inexperience and intellectual development, still sleeps with him. He doesn't know what sex is so the encounter is non-consensual. Everything about this "romance" is played for laughs, especially his dumbfoundedness at seeing a woman over twice his age get undressed. It's really gross and I felt like mentioning an example of men's lack of consent being used as a joke too
Yes, omg! I rewatched the movie recently and that part made me *VERY* uncomfortable
OMG thank you for bringing this up! I watched this movie as a kid in school and it's so obviously overt pedophilia!
Interestingly enough the movie Birth (2004) with Nicole Kidman also had a disturbing premise in which Kidman's character encounters her reincarnated husband in the body of a child, and I had a teacher who went off on an angry disgusted rant about it lol
Off topic but your comment kinda reminds me of this clip from South Park where Ike's kindergarten teacher sleeps with him and Stan then goes to try report it to the police who then laugh it off and say how lucky he is.
If the video wasn't bad enough, the comment section was 10x worst. I remember some comments defending the teacher and others saying that it was feminism as to why the teacher didn't get arrested. One comment that really stuck with me through all these years, it went something like this "Women will talk about how they will want equality, but when it comes to equality in the courts they'll put on a maid outfit and act like it's the 1950s again."
When will these types of people realize that there's tons of feminist who are against female p3d0ph1l3s and believe they should be prosecuted and that men's biggest threat is not women but other men; but then again these are South Park fans were talking about and you know how they are >:[
@@kittykittybangbang9367 I actually kind of liked that South Park episode. It felt like they were criticizing the "haha lucky dude" response.
I've seen several news / gossip magazines that report on a female teacher SA-ing her male students, but then the article uses images of her in tight dresses and bikinis to show "how lucky the boys were" even if they don't say it explicitly.
I also want to mention an example from my country, Norway. We had a reality "Love Island" knockoff where two women attempted to SA a drunk male contestant. They had dragged him into a room and kept trying even when he said no. This was then filmed, edited and put on television without a second thought. The other male contestants mocked him for saying no, saying he almost got laid by two women, he's "an idiot for saying no".
Men being SA'ED is a serious issue, but I think the biggest obstacle is that patriarchal response from men. The laughing and jealousy, the inability and refusal to understand the seriousness. Men can bring up male SA all they want in feminist comment sections, but until they change their own attitudes they can't point their fingers at only women.
EW HE'S 12 WTF
the only timeloop romance story ive ever seen that isnt weird as hell to me is probably the eighth doctor adventures audio story 'no more lies' where a guy creates a timeloop on the date of his wifes birthday party because shes dying and he doesnt want her to die, he wants to be with her forever in the loop. theres no weird time travel stuff in their relationship itself, it developed totally naturally, shes fully aware that hes an alien from the relative future and stranded in her current day. its just that he set up a time loop on a nice day so they could be together forever, albeit without her knowledge - but when she finds out about the loop she begs him to let her go and end the loop and in the end he does and the story is like clearly framed as her being right and hes wrong to set up the timeloop without asking her about it like that, thats the titular 'lie'.
also higurashi is my fav time loop story ever i need to get that in there ok carry on
The Eighth Doctor has so many excellent stories!
@@quickflash2studios232 8th dr is my fav doctor and lucie is probably my fav companion !!
@@FissionCube Capaldi is my favourite Doctor and Molly O’Sullivan is my favourite companion! McGann is a close second though!
It’s hilarious how easily a “romcom” can become a horror film with merely changing the pov lol they are effed up
Absolutely!! Between the "stalking is love" problem, the horrors of time travel manipulation, the stupid ingrained gender expectations, the cishet normativity and the dubcon sex (esp. in older films), honestly most romcoms feel more like low-key horror thrillers to me 😬 Even without factoring in being ace!
Or you just have no understanding of these old films.
How so?
This video was a great example of when people accuse me of hating romance in stories and I respond, "I don't hate romance, I hate how romance is so often portrayed in stories." Generally romance is never my favourite part of a story, and a lot of times I don't understand it, but it can sometimes add things to a story which I enjoy.
Too often it's two people being assholes to each other and then getting together for some reason.
I like "fantasy" romance apparently. I only watched horror and action for years bc I don't want 2 people arguing and the relationship having issues because "plot point", to be the whole point of the movie. Usually a scifi or fantasy (c or k drama) weaves romance in the story. I completely sure agree most "romance" needs to stay on Hallmark...or Lifetime
@@darladay4766 Genre stories allow for an easier time writing decent relationships. They don't have to have dumb arguments about whether she still likes Keith, they can have more interesting ones over whether or not Keith is a Pod Person.
@@janerecluse4344 if Keith was a pod person but the main storyline was still 2 people arguing about why they should or shouldn't be together and nothing but infighting, it would still get labeled as a "drama".
@@janerecluse4344 actually you just reminded me that Roswell was a show
I think we already have a quasi time travel level of creepy knowledge of other people, in some cases. Specifically talking about something that happens to people like you: youtubers, video essayists, influencers, social media personalities. It's happened more than once and more than twice that people in parasocial relationships feel and act entitled to a relationship with a person about whom they know a great lot, but who doesn't know them at all. Feels similar to the incredible asymmetry of these time travel relationships.
Yeah, Rowan mentioned in the video how you also see this with people cyberstalking another person’s social media. I also find it really uncomfortable to think about how people have probably used information from friends to manipulate ‘blind dates’ before.
There was actually a version of this video that I just couldn’t work out how to do right that made this comparison - and like the idea that the experience of the time travellers love interest only experiencing the “perfect” dates is very similar to an audience only getting the view of the edited version of a video without seeing the different takes and editing and research etc
i was thinking along these lines too! the normal Rowan Outro where she tells us how to "find her all over the internet" suddenly Hit Differently. stay safe on the internet, everyone! D:
Well put.
@@HeyRowanEllis would love to have a video on that one day!
I read The Time Traveler's Wife, but I haven't watched any adaptations. The book is extremely icky! There is a scene where the girl has just turned 17, I think and her "birthday gift" is that the protagonist will now have sex with her. It is GROSS! He uses the most unsexy dirty talk, and they have a difficult time completing the task. It's just so, so bad. I can't understand how anyone can read the book and think that their relationship was not coercive and disturbing.
I just remembered another horrible bit! There is one point where the protagonist is having a huge fight with his wife and unexpectedly time travels to see his wife as a young teenager. I don't remember how old, but under 17. He ANGRILY kisses the girl and she is shocked and cries because it is her first kiss and it is in anger and is not enjoyable. He feels badly for doing that, but not NEARLY as badly as he should! Seriously. He doesn't just groom the girl, he sets her up to interpret anger and violence as proof of his love for her.
I've read the book too. I have always thought the book intentionally makes the whole thing creepy to make a point. it's not neutral
i haven't read the book or watched the movie or anything, but does the guy have the choice to just.. not interact with her? like he time travels to when she's seven or whatever, can he just walk out of her house and do something else until he goes back to the present? i don't see why he wouldn't if that's a possibility.
@dottyContrarian yes, he is free to avoid her if he chooses to. But when he travels through time and space, he is completely naked and extremely hungry from the calories burned by the travels. The first time he met his future wife, he was in the woods near her house, and he asked her to bring him some of her dad's clothes and something to eat.
@@heidi3963 Niffenegger setting the story in Chicago & Michigan forces Henry to interact with Clare & also commit many crimes basically in self-defense against the weather. He could’ve avoided hanging out with her beyond getting food & clothes left out, but that would be a different story
@@dottyContrarianI’ve only seen the movie but no in time travels wife it is impossible for Henry to change the past or future so when Clare tells him he will interact with her as a child he has no choice just as he cannot stop his mother’s or his own death.
I've wanted a sequel to Groundhog Day for a while now. Or maybe an original film with a similar jumping-off point to the end of that film. A time-looped person who's perfected their routine and knowledge about this one very specific day and setting, memorized tons of info about the people around them, maxed out some random fun skills... now attempting to reintegrate into linear time.
In some ways, I think that would create a far bigger existential crisis than being in the loop ever was. Suddenly everything you do has real lasting consequences again, after thousands (maybe tens or hundreds of thousands) of repeats with no consequences. People will remember what you do and say around them. Oh, and you get ONE chance at every conversation and action now. No more do-overs. Do you choose to keep working your dead-end reporter job, or change careers to one of the things you got good at during the loop? Holidays are coming up, that you haven't had to think about for (to you) years.
And that's just the social aspect. Physically... seasons change. Weather changes. It's been years since you saw rain or got sweaty walking out the front door. You wake up in a bed you're not used to. Money is something you need to keep in mind again. And laundry. And balanced diets. And cleaning, unless you live out of hotels the rest of your life.
And every day for the rest of your life you wonder... what if it happens again? Will the loop ever come back, repeating a different day, or is it over forever? You don't know what caused it or made it stop, so there's no way to know for sure if or when it'll start again. Is anybody you meet stuck in a loop like you were? Could you even tell if they were?
I don't even know who I'd suggest to write or produce such a film. It'd take a very skilled writer with the right sort of mindset, to do it properly. I'm sure there's tons of interesting nuance and implications I haven't thought of, too.
But done well... boy howdy would I love to see that movie.
Shawn Inmon has a wonderful series of books (Middle Falls series) that feature characters who, upon their death, reappear at an earlier point in their life with all their previous memories intact, giving them an opportunity to do things differently or even start over again by dying again. Each time they die, they reappear at the same point in their life. Some characters start over many times before achieving an outcome they can live with. Interesting well written characters and stories, highly recommended!
There _is_ a sequel... sort of, *_Groundhog Day: Like Father Like Son,_* released in 2019, the game is available globally on Sony PlayStation® VR, Oculus Rift, and HTC Vive. Does it address any of the things you brought up? Probably not, it follows Phil Connors Jr. who is now stuck in his own time loop, so they don't have to shell out the big bucks for Bill Murray.
YES I LOVE THIS!! If you're this fascinated by thinking about these things, maybe give one of my favourite video essays that also deals with the implications and consequences of living in a time loop a watch. It's called "time loop nihilism" by the youtuber Jacob Geller. I definetely recommend it a lot, all his videos have beautiful writing.
I have another, considerably more niche recommendation that I think does a good job of (at times) diving deeper into this idea of doing things over, the choice to try and recreate friendships and relationships or not, wondering whether other people had their life 'reset' at a certain point and are pretending everything is fine as well, etc. It's an MCU fanfic tho, which I know isn't everyone's cup of tea. Reading your thoughts in this comment reminded me how much this story stuck with me for exactly these reasons tho. It's called "when i die i'll sacrifice (more than enough for the afterlife)" and there is an audio version to listen to it too :)
I've read many timeloop fanfics with this! You should look for some, it might be fun :D
@@Wendy_O._Koopa the game's storyline involves a few flashbacks. It seems to negate the issues with getting back to the time loop, Phil only becomes happier and wiser. He does have a few problems passing the wisdom down to his children, however.
drinking game idea: take a shot every time rowan says "lets start with about time, which doesnt do too well on this front" 💀💀💀💀
I literally thought that I accidentally clicked and rewinded the video couple of times 😅
I'm sure you were just experiencing déjà vu
....fridge brilliance. Repeating the same exact phrase with pretty much the same exact delivery, while critiquing a time travel movie. It didn't hit me until just now how fun of a touch that is.
Did this by the second time she said that, I did finish my soda tho XD
It was brilliantly executed. When I twigged she was doing it I grinned like mad.
I have a creepy obsessive ex-partner and I just KNOW if they had time travelling powers they'd use them to manipulate me into being with them. And I just know if that way we'd end up in a "happy" relationship they'd use that to justify the manipulations. The thought makes my skin crawl. Movies like "about time" are only cute and romantic until you think about them more, and the easiest way to see how fd up they actually are is to imagine someone you wouldn't wanna be with getting those powers and using them to manipulate you.
I recently watched The Age of Adaline, where she's the main character and the one inside the time anomaly and still all her agency is thrown out of the window on behalf of the _two_ male love interests wishes. I was horrified.
yeah it's really weird, especially since the two male love interests were a father and his SON
I recently watched Age of Adaline for the first time and immediately wanted to write a fix-it fic, because *my god*. The romance with Ellis, the son, was just horrifying. Here you have this amazing, complex woman and she falls in love with *him*? I'm not buying it.
As a big an of Groundhog Day, I always need to point something out --- Phil never gets rewarded by the plot for manipulating Rita like the guy in About Time does. He repeatedly gets rejected, and all his attempts of manipulation end with Rita cursing him out and slapping him. He only wins her over (and subsequently breaks the loop) when he learns to be open and honest with her. She is also not a prize / reward for him changing --- Phil breaks the loop because he actually learns to be a better person. Like yeah, the "s*itty man does s*itty things but learns to change" is overdone and we should not pat them on the back for the bare minimum, but the movie still has a good message in the end IMO.
But yeah, that's my 5 cents, love the video!
Also, in Phil's case he isn't the one actively controlling the time loop like Tim in About Time, for instance.
@@D0MiN0ChAn That's a good point as well! He really had no choice.
The loop doesn't end until she sleeps with him, though. As far as we know, that's the only thing that stands out about that day. Also, time loop or not, he's her boss that she met yesterday and his line about knowing every inch of her face or something is so weird if we think about it from her point of view. If someone I met yesterday said that to me, I'd run a mile not sleep with them
@@violet7773 Actually, Rita is Phil's producer, making her his boss.
I get your point and I agree it is much better than the about time thing but she is still narratively his reward? Like that’s the happy ending of the movie, she is still the happy ending.
So yes, ‘stop chasing this woman and just be a better person’ is a good message, but their getting together anyway kind of undermines that
Clicked on this video so fast. I didn’t watch About Time until a couple of years ago and was taken aback by how manipulative Tim is.
Also it was horrifying to me when someone pointed out how many times Moffat has used the plot line of young girl meets fully grown time travelling man, then when shes grown up they kiss: the 10th doctor and madame de pompadour, the 11th doctor and amy, and now the time travellers wife…
Older man falling in love with a younger woman is a classic in… well classic (or canon) literature. Look at Dante & Beatrice. It often happened in older poetry as well. The one Italian poet whose name escapes me wrote much of his work for a pre-teen who also had died. Her name was Lucy… gosh I wish I could remember. & then Edgar Allan Poe & his cousin. These girls often die in youth, keeping them perfect & pure.
I was thinking of Petrarch & Laura, whom he married at 15. She died at 38, likely from the plague. She didn’t return his love but he had to have her the moment he saw her. Ick.
@@a.evelyn5498 Dante and Beatrice were both children when they met, so not an example of this trope.
The amount of ways men find to be sexually interacting with/grooming kids without getting punished or examined is honestly astounding. It's horrifying how often it gets a pass by people.
@@a.evelyn5498 The fact that it's happened all the time throughout western history makes it even more horrifying.
This is exactly tackled in the show “Extraordinary” where one of the characters has the ability to go back in time for a little bit and he uses it to avoid getting dumped by his girlfriend! This is not a main story plot but I 100% recommend the show
Yesss they tackled it so well in that show! It is super scary to me that he can manipulate reality like that!
I literally just watched that episode of the show extraordinary & was thinking about it the whole time I was watching this video as well.
I loved that show! And I really liked that at one point Carrie recognized that he used his powers to manipulate her and that was basically the nail in the coffin for her. And totally unrelated, but I also loved the parallel between how the flying guy treated Jen and how Jen treated Jizzlord. And that she realized it and immediately went to apologize to Jizzlord.
This power is also in the British show "Misfits". A guy is trying to break up with his girlfriend and he has the power to go back a few minutes in time. It's actually done really well because he goes through all his crappy ideas of how to do it kindly AND suffers the consequences repeatedly, and after multiple repetitions his girlfriend ends the relationship with him first. A really funny scene.
@@Eagle_Owl2As someone who has never seen this, I am very confused why there is a guy who can fly and a guy named "Jizzlord"
Before I Go to Sleep has a very similar conceit to 50 First Dates (Nicole Kidman's memory wipes every time she goes to sleep so she and her husband make a tape for her) but from her perspective. Tellingly, it's a chilling psychological thriller
this video reminded me a reddit post where the woman finds out that the man she's been married to for years used to stalk her and pursued her using the knowledge he got from stalking. :/
as you've said at the end it's not necessarily the time travelling trope that's problematic but the way a lot of the romantic movies re-frame an obsessive stalker behaviour as something acceptable through a fantasy element.
On that note if you're a fan of time travelling trope I highly recommend a Chinese drama called 'Reset'. The protagonist gets stuck in a time loop where the bus she's riding explodes and she has to find a way to stop it. It's mostly Action/Mystery which is where the time travelling tropes shine in my opinion.
Oh, definitely. Time-travel has no place in a romcom. 😓
Omg I remember that reddit post and it felt horrific because they even had a kid together. It was creepy.
There's another film called boss level I believe where he is repeating the same day which ends in his death and has to keep finding out how to survive it and stuff
@May Kabir omg I didn't know they have a kid..that makes it even harder for her to leave :/
@@princessofhell4639 oh sounds interesting! I'll check it out
I didn’t even think of the implications of this till John Oliver randomly mentioned ‘Groundhog Day’ and how it was so creepy.
When he was like “it’s always her first day”
Kinda of, but I can't be mad at him as a character. He's stuck in an existential nightmare out of his control. And given the loop that he's stuck in most of the stuff he does never ends up happening from anyone else's perspective. Kind of creepy, and he's a bad dude for a lot of it but that's also kind of the point. I feel like the film would be better if they stuck with the altruistic message and not tried so hard with the romance angle.
Just gonna say before getting into the video - I especially hated that in About Time he didn't even NEED to use time travel in the first place. The first date went super well without it! And that was never really addressed. Super weird that the creepy implications of his time travel dates were NOT one of the reasons he decided to stop time traveling
My only critic, or my major one, would be that scene. He based his relationship with her on a lie, I do not approve of that. But the movie was about (for me) learning to accept, and I think he learned.
For me it is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than 50 dates and the wife of the time traveler
The first date went well but didn't he accidentally ruin it by trying to change something unrelated? I don't remember it well but I saw another comment about it. didn't he have to redo it on accident and the second date went worse.
This may impact your reaction to "The Butterfly Effect"... there are two versions of the film, with different conclusions and people sometimes see the alternate ending... not sure which was the ending we got in theaters.. but in the one I saw, Evan didn't kill himself in the womb-- He learned that as a child, Kayleigh had the option of moving in with her mother when her parents split up... but she chose to stay with her abusive father instead, because she "liked" Evan and didn't want to move away from him -- so what he did, was to travel back to their first meeting, and said horribly cruel things to her & made her hate him, instead -- at the end of the film, he's back in the modern day, and an adult Kayleigh passes him on the sidewalk without even recognizing him; showing that they've become strangers-- only HE recalls the relationship they once had, in the now erased past. What this sets up, is that he abandons the idea of having her in his life as a "prize", in order to let her choose a better life away from him, outside of the toxic situations he kept creating.
I'm pretty sure that's the version i saw. As a teen, that movie messed me up so bad.
That’s the official ending, that was in theatres. There’s also two other endings that are also okay. But the killing himself one is the one i first watched. And god was it a bad idea i sobbed when i watched it i hated it. It was too sad.
What I saw in the cinema was the womb one. The other version sounds better, honestly.
Did you even watch the video? She literally acknowledged the theatrical cut and the directors cut she knows there’s Different versions of the ending but focused on the director’s cut because it was ballsy. Pay attention.
I saw that one too.
"Let's start with _About Time_ which doesn't do too well on this front..." was giving me my own personal Groundhog Day moments. Very well executed 😄
I'm so glad to find someone else talking about this, such a fun touch 😂
“Don’t mess with my trauma Sheila!” Such a great line.
I haven't even seen the movie but that line alone makes it a masterpiece.
I adore the Time Traveler’s Wife, but if you look at what else the author has written, I feel like it is clear that she knew she was playing with some really dark themes. It has surprised me a few times when people who only watched the movie seem not to have picked up on the darkness and ick factors that were SO prevalent in the book.
Like “Lolita”. Nabokov wrote a horror novel from the point of view of the monster and was so disturbed by the twisting of his work by the publishing house marketing it as a romance that he never published another book in his lifetime. He also left instructions in his will that all manuscripts where to be burned, but his son tried to work around it
@@minastone155 "When you make the covers, use nice colors, but NO GIRLS"
"Hehe girls' legs taking her panties off go $$$"
Yes, and she's said she absolutely hated the smultzy movie they made out of her book, too. It wasn't meant to be a cute romance.
@@minastone155 You're right that people misinterpret Lolita in all kinds of awful ways, but Nabokov wrote and published several books afterwards-- Pale Fire, Ada, and others.
@@minastone155 Nabokov translated Lolita into Russian after its initial publication, and published multiple subsequent novels.
it’d be so interesting to hear thoughts on how the dynamics change in queer iterations of this trope; like chloe and max from life is strange, madoka and homura from madoka magica, or shinji and kaworu from evangelion. i think what sets them so heavily apart from the heterosexual versions is that the sole focus isn’t on the conquest of romance, it’s more a desperation to keep the other party simply alive and happy. it’s also interesting that all the listed above have the existence of unhappy endings, or a major consequence for the use of time travel for a somewhat selfish reason.
YES!!! Madoka Magica is an amazing example of consequences, as well as genuine unconditional love.
iT'S GREAT in Madoka because we're in the perspective of the non-time traveler who finds out about the time travel, AND the time traveler is actively unlikeable because she's doing it for noble reasons instead of using time travel to make herself look better/manipulate people, subverting multiple aspects of time travel narratives. And it works in the traditional sense, as well, as the time travel never actually helps the situation--it only makes things worse. And while the time travel is arguably justifiable and defendable, as she's doing it to save the non-time-traveler, the narrative still highlights the inherently selfish nature of time travel in the movie. In the movie, all the aspects of her character that led to her using time travel also lead her to developing a god complex and literally overthrowing god for selfish reasons.
@@allyli1718 feel like in madoka magica homura still had good intentions at the end of the movie, for one when she gained god like powers she did it in order for madoka to live an actual life so she wouldn’t have to live as god. There’s a scene before Homura made that decision where madoka says how lonely and sad she’d be if she couldn’t be with her family and friends which is what drove homura to take madokas powers so she could live a normal life. Even in the new world homura created she never made it where madoka would be in love with her or anything like that, she specifically made it so she could live a normal life with her family, something that madoka couldn’t experience due to her constantly having to sacrifice herself for others. That’s until homura made that decision to finally let the person she loves live a normal life. Homura isn’t a perfect person but she’s not entirely selfish (I mean she even gave the other characters happy lives too without having to fight witches)
In fairness, I'd argue Life is Strange kinda subverts it by having Max always specifically tell Chloe about the time travel, and - in situations where it involves Chloe - either only doing it when asked, or telling Chloe about the rewind afterwards and _why_ she went back - with the only exceptions being wholly player-controlled scenarios, like Chloe accidentally shooting herself in the Junkyard.
I guess in the context of Life is Strange though, it'd boil down to how the player uses the rewind ability - they could fall into the trope by purposefully using it to get Max & Chloe into a relationship, or subvert it by simply... not doing that.
You don't really have to go to the queer side to see the trope done right, Steins;Gate and Re:Zero show it really well
"You know what the difference between stalking and romance is? Romance happens in movies. In real life, it's called stalking"
~Lavernius Tucker
I'm so happy you brought up Happy Death Day and Russian Doll, and also that it was during the second half of the video. Those have to be my two favourite timeloop stories. Really glad they didn't end up in the first half for any reason.
Happy Death Day is so good honestly
@@quirkyblackenby even Happy Death Day 2U is good, which is rare
@@quirkyblackenby It really is! My husband and I are huge fans of both and I try to get everyone to watch them. Lol
I love Russian Doll! Definitely am putting a few more of the ones she mentioned later on my list, probably starting with Happy Death Day.
I loved Russian Doll! Never seen Happy Death Day; will have to check it out. I really loved the TV show Travelers, about people traveling from the future into the past to fix things so the future won't be so bleak ... it's really great. The relationship between the main guy and wife is so messed up until the very last episode, and I really loved how they ended things so well. It lasted 3 seasons, so a lot to watch, but well worth it if you enjoy time travel stories and don't need / want it to center around a romance story. I was so sad it got canceled. I'd love it if they'd bring it back, but that seems unlikely at this point.
another place in romance fiction where time travel is really common is in korean manhwas!
it's super trendy to have a main character (usually female) who somehow dies in the original timeline only to wake up sometime back before they died. from what I have seen, the lead goes back a handful of years and they only get to relive their life once. however, other times they get multiple do-over's or travel back to when they were children. in this way you get people who are mentally 20 or 40+ years old in the bodies of children. often, the protagonist also won't tell anyone they're from the future. then these main characters get romantic leads (whom the main character sometimes used to know in the original time line) who are the same age as the body the main character now inhibits, and then you get grown adults with much more life experience romantically interacting with unknowing people who are still children/underage.
(these stories are typically also self-indulgent revenge plots about getting back at their murderers from the original timeline...)
of course this trope is not always bad in manhwas either. it also seems somewhat common that in order to avoid the outcome of the original timeline, the main character, has only gone back a couple of months/years, and immediately removes themselves from their original environment and start over with people they don't know at all, or they'll just do the crazy thing of telling the people around them that they are from the future.
isekai stories where a main character gets transported into the body of a fictional character they have read about in a book/romance video game/etc. are also really common and run into a lot of the same problems...
I'm so excited to see you talk about this! it's truly wild how prevalent this trope is in romance fiction
I was wondering if someone else was going to bring this up! I think these are interesting because the time travel element is used in a very different way, even when they get multiple do-overs. For example, in the Villainess Reverses the Hourglass, since she only has a 5-minute reset period she can't prevent any plots but can choose to re-do a moment that would lose her power while getting revenge for her sister. And then we have other storylines that show a time loop for the curse it is like Resetting Lady, where she's redone the same year so many times (and with such terrible outcomes) that she's lost her connection to others and the meaning of a life in the process.
The series Back To You handled it perfectly! I couldn't not think of it while Rowan was talking about the couple that met while being stuck in a time loop and eventually got together, even though originally they were interested in other people.
Another series that came to mind a bit after that part of this video was Surviving Romance, where the main character doesn't quite work the time loops to make someone fall in love with her, but KIND OF does too? It's not focused on the love interest, but she does make it so that she becomes friends with her classmates based on the knowledge she gained in previous loops. It's interesting to see that she's still gaining affection, just not in a romantic way.
my best friend is OBSESSED with these types of manhwas, from what i can tell the big appeal is hurt/comfort, which is a 100x more valid than 'winning' a woman like shes a trophy. from what theyve told me about the time travel manhwas they read, its about someone (usually a woman) who was mistreated in their life and gets a single shot to live it again, and this time they get the support system they need and/or go on a detailed revenge quest against those who wronged them. like girlboss time traveling john wick
This reminded me of 13 going on 30
When it comes to mangas, this exact thing came to my mind with So I'm A Spider, So What? in which they reincarnate in another world, yet are still their past selves and refer to themselves as them past selves with other people from their class. For some reason though, my friends act like they're not the people from before because they "grew up from babies" as if he wouldn't be scared for his life if he heard a baby tell him about gravity and explain how they're a teacher who died-
What really bothered me about 50 first dates is that she watches the video and just goes with it. "Oh, okay, so this guy I don't know is my husband, so therefore, I love him and want to be with him." No. That's just creepy.
I loved how A Map of Tiny Perfect Things approaches two main characters who both are aware of the time loop and bond through learning more about each other while adventuring through the loop every day.
As a kid I always thought it'd be weird in 50 first dates with her waking up pregnant. But it is now as an adult I realize how horrifying this movie is. And it's one of the few to actually use anterograde amnesia! It's rare to see that kind in media! Too bad it's tied to an actually horrifying execution.
As someone with a severe fear of pregnancy, i have genuinely had maaaaany horrific painful nightmares where I somehow manage to get pregnant without my own knowledge that anything took place. Those are the kinds of dreams that follow you....
Yeah when I watched it as a teenager I was like it would be terrifying to wake up with your life completely changed. Or wake up pregnant or with a husband and child that you don't know. My dad thought it was a cute movie and that's why he showed it to me :l
The thing with that movie though it's about a real woman who really did chose to have children. Still has to be scary but I feel like is a different category then the rest of the examples because while obviously it's a heavy adaptation really does exist
The reveal in Palm Springs honestly shook me. I couldn't look at Samberg's character the same after, no matter how many times he apologised.
Same! I honestly wish they'd have gone their separate ways after breaking the loop.
He doesn’t deserve the win.
Tbf it make me think of an interesting pov, if he slept with her the first time before the beginning of the time loop, how wrong would it be if he kept doing it if he didn't change how he acted cus he knew it would get them together especially if he thought this would forever be his life. I mean I feel like anyone who realises they are stuck in a time loop would eventually completely ignore any sort of moral compass they might have had since their actions in a messed up way don't matter and they don't think their life will ever change. It's weird.
I was disgusted
Season 1 of russion doll really feels like the writer really understood what certain symtoms of ptsd can be like.
The Chinese movie "how long will I love U" is an interesting take on the genre. A guy from the 90s and a girl from the 2010s end up with their apartments smashed together somehow and if one opens the door it let's them out into their time.
It's less one person has massively more knowledge and power more they're both able to time travel into each other's times and growing together as they figure out what happened and why
I recently watched About Time on à recommendation from a friend and was shocked at how glowing so many of the reviews I read afterward were, so I’m glad to see someone address this stuff. The whole time I was waiting for the big moment when Mary finds out Tim has been manipulating her, but it just… never happened.
I really enjoyed it, but I thought it was a horror movie up until the end (maybe because I'd happened to have last seen the main actor in black mirror). So I was just relieved there was no twist 😅 (until you dig into how creepy this constant trope is, and never women doing the same to men)
Like travelers, i thought he waking her up was the beggining of a dark story but NO!!!! they portray it romantic ahhaha
Omg I have been ranting these points about 50 first dates for so long, so validating to hear someone else say it 😅 the pregnancy and child bit is just so ludicrous to me, sometimes it’s hard to get out of bed to parent even when you are fully aware and have consented to being a parent 😂 Great video as always!
if you look from the realistic perspective, shecould never have a normal life. how could someone build a family, have a dog or even get a job whithout any memory? the whole idea falls apart very quikly, is just impossible unless they fin a way to fix the memory lost
But she subconsciously remembers
It’s such a relief to hear someone else felt the same horror. I went straight to SHE WAKES UP PREGNANT WITH NO MEMORIES?!? the first time I watched it and had no idea how no one had queried that during production. The fact it’s loosely based on a true story who’s family hate it is so awful.
Adam Sandler and roles that portray relationships as between adult humans (or parent-child relationships) between adult humans and (or between adult humans and their children) is like oil and water. If you wanted to reinforce the idea that men aren’t really capable of higher level emotions or thinking and are only capable of seeking pleasure and shallow petty object collecting like abusive and neglectful “relationships,” you have no further to look. It like he plays the same person who stepped out of a high school locker room into middle aged time travel style, or has a serious mental health problem that has the same effect in almost every single film.
@@iamqueenkk The idea of her not spending the whole day (every day) starting out feeling like she was drugged and abducted and maybe worse and not being able to get that idea completely out of her mind seems remote if you think about it. And even if she immediately accepted that she had amnesia every day, why wouldn’t she spend every day in a state of shock? Also what horror are you subjecting the child to?
One time I read a really good fanfic where the main character was stuck in a time loop and the only way to break it was to confess all of his secrets (and his love) to the love interest. Imo it was a pretty smart way to get over the power imbalance of a time loop
Butterfly Effect was low key slightly funny because it was apparent they had to nerf Ashton Kutcher’s character. He’s dazzlingly handsome, super intelligent, and incredibly sensitive. They were like “shit, quick, give him a traumatic condition, his life is too good” haha
star trek really feel like the origins of so many tropes
Oh, absolutely.
I've always felt uneasy in these sorts of stories and you hit the nail on the hammer why exactly. A good spin on this genre is the psychological horror/thriller webtoon "Never Ending Darling", in which a scientist who has revolutionized the world of cloning kills and clones his girlfriend over and over, often killing her when they have small disagreements. Not only do we see her die over and over, but with each reset it becomes harder and harder for her to save herself. It's a fantastic read and while it's still ongoing, I highly recommend it. It touches on her lack of consent and inability to make a decision for herself, because even though she's actively trying to leave him in most of her resets, she's never allowed to keep her opinions for longer than a week or two and has to come up with new ways to outsmart her boyfriend, who is growing more and more obsessive with each reset.
Fun thing, in high school our conservative PSYCHOLOGY teacher made us watch 50 First Dates as an intro to the concept of memory loss disorders. She said she loved it too because of how charming it was, and like most of the class found it perfectly normal and even cute. When we discussed the movie afterwards I immediately took the chance to explain why it pissed me off and how genuinely disgusting on so many levels it was, and I swear the people who agreed with me there were a minority in the class.
This was also a class where we, a bunch of freshmen, were made to discuss whether 13 Reasons Why was helpful in the mental health sphere or not, in which after explaining to the class how as someone with previous suicide attempts the show completely mischaracterized suicidality to a dangerous degree, the girl next to me wearing a Jesus Saves T-Shirt stood up and told me that the show was a callout for people like me who would selfishly kill themselves to run away from their sins (I was outwardly queer). Naturally I barely stopped myself from crying considering I'd just talked about my own attempts and then been told I was horrible for the sin of being queer and suicidal. A lot of the class sided with me that time since, yknow, I was the one with actual experience regarding suicidality, but the teacher legit sided with the girl and told me I was a divisive figure in the class.
So that's about the level I've determined people who like these movies to be on, lol.
Edit: I think Groundhog Day is actually pretty good tho, despite only going off of old memories of it. If I remember correctly, the movie isn't about a man tailoring himself each day to be more and more what his love interest would want; it's almost the opposite, with those attempts not working, and instead each day he ends up bettering himself as a person, not superficially but genuinely, until when he's released he's Actually a cool person and is himself while also having learned life lessons that get him the girl. Which I think is a pretty good lesson actually! Personal growth good :)
I'm so sorry that happened to you, that's incredibly fucked up :(
I remember watching Palm Springs blind, without knowing what it was. My sister and I had been watching a bunch of rubbishy to kinda sweet rom coms and we thought it was just another to add to the watched pile. So we put it on, watch the first time and there's an archer guy shooting people and we're looking at each other like wtf?? And then it does the loop and we both literally scream as we realise what we're watching. We'd previously watched Map of Tiny Perfect Things and we both love time travel films both in and out of the rom com genre and we both were so happy it addressed the problems of time travel romance.
This reminds me of a "game" called 12 minutes that Jessie Gender talked about in one of her videos. It's like you play as a husband who gets home and after 12 minutes (I guess) a murderer shows up at your appartment and kills your wife, then time-loop, and every time that happens you can interact normally, find out what the murder is about and save your wife. But you can also do the grossest things to her and I don't rmember too well, but I think it turns out that she is the husband's sister, which she doesn't know, but he does, and he still married her and did I mention she's pregnant ...
To be fair ignoring the stuff you do to her in the game the sister brother thing originally occurred without either of them knowing but he finds out eventually. That sorta stuff has occured irl
I think it's implied it's not even a time travel game. He's just in that room with his father at the end of the game, learning about her being his sister, and then you either end the game by...I guess getting your mind wiped, or just looping again.
I was SO SURE he was going to eventually tell her the truth in About Time and allow her to consent or be mad or have human emotions about it or whatever (Who knows, she might have been fine with it but at least she'd be looped in!) but then he NEVER DID and I was HORRIFIED.
A few years ago I had an idea for a relationship between a time traveler and an immortal. It wasn't really fleshed out but I remember that I wanted to focus on both the difference in maturity and the strain the time differences put on the relationship.
That does sound really interesting.
this is nice
I think about the logic of drew Barrymore’s pregnancy in 50 first dates too. Super terrifying
This is one of the most validating items I’ve ever consumed. I know this video specifically discusses time travel romance, but the problematics themes and reinforcement of toxic behavior in most romance drives me up the wall and I’ve been ostracized in the past for pointing it out. What we romanticize in “romantic relationships” absolutely appalls me
i’m so glad you pointed out the director’s cut of The Butterfly Effect, when you first mentioned the movie near the start of the video i was curious if you’d seen the director’s cut. it makes it an entirely different story which is unusual but fascinating. the first time i watched it as a kid i hated the change but as i’ve grown up, it’s grown on me. it’s dark, but it’s a dark movie from the beginning and makes no pretences about it. the theatrical cut was the coward’s ending.
I just found out with your comment that the director cut isn't the official version --- that's the version id always send 😂
@@marykerrigan6462 yeah, in the theatrical cut which i grew up watching, it just ends with him going back to a childhood party and telling the girl he likes that he hates her, so she and her brother move away with her mum instead of staying with her abusive dad for his sake, and then he and his friend burn the books so he can’t time travel anymore. it’s this weird bittersweet, he learned a lesson vibe instead of the much more thematically appropriate dark ending of the director’s cut.
I was today years old when I found out that there's a "theatrical cut" where he doesn't off himself as a fetus...
Especially because I recall the book-burning still leading to horrible things in his life and the lives of those he interacts with. Driving him further to off himself.
@@onijester56Same...
I watched 50 First Dates at school when I was 11 (I can't remember why, it might have just been the 'end of term movie' that happens in UK schools) and it terrified me. Even at that age I also realised how terrifying it would be for her to wake up heavily pregnant with no memory of how it happened. I'm so glad I'm not the only one who was disturbed by this movie
i mean yeah is unconfortable but it is a real condition that exist. Is like watching The Teory of Evrything and saying "it would be horrifyng to have the same condition as Stephen Hawking." Well some people have that condition and they still deserved to be loved.
@@angelsunemtoledocabllero5801 I'm not talking about the condition itself being terrifying, I meant the way it is portrayed in the movie, i.e. the pregnancy thing in my previous comment and the other things mentioned in Rowan's video
My ex was a fan of rom-coms and we watched About Time several years ago because it was his favorite. He really wished that he could also repeat the same first night of romping over and over until it was the best ever. I only gave a vague internal eye roll to the main character never telling his wife about his ability, but I was a bit more critical over whether he'd choose to reveal or withhold these abilities from his descendants. Without thinking too hard, I overall enjoyed the movie.
The part that bothered me most was the cruelty he had in reaction to his child of another timeline. I understand that this was meant to mark the personal stakes in time travel, but his lack of memories of that alternate child meant that he replaced versions of himself as well. Since the baby was not the one he had bonded with from his preferred timeline, he negated that existence and willfully allowed his sister's downfall. His intended act of goodness resulted in him deciding that he could only do things for his sake.
Watched only part of 50 First Dates at work, and it's wild that they had a child. I cannot imagine how even a majority of days could have possibly ended positively because of the "sudden" pregnant growth in her body.
I agree, he was incredibly selfish throughout the entire film, I wanted to root for him but his character is incredibly unlikable.
Only 1/3 through but wanted to say THANK YOU for addressing this trope. I've always found it disturbing, and it seems the female character is just a pawn in the game of the man's desires. I was equally icked by Ground Hog Day and 50 First Dates, particularly the latter. Consent is often sketchy at best with this trope, bc how could the woman truly consent when she is in fact being coerced to the man's plan.
ETA: "Let's start with About Time, which doesn't do too well" ... repeating agai and again like time travel had me 😅
You really nailed it when you said that toxic, abusive behaviors are presented as romantic, and that can have a terrible effect on people, even subconsciously. The idea that obsession and stalking aren't (1) crimes and (2) abusive, they're a sign of devotion and true-love dedication is rampant in romantic movies or movies with a romantic subplot. And that's incredibly dangerous for girls and women.
BTW, I purchased your book for the teenage daughter of a friend. When I visited the other day, the book was on the end table. 🙂👍
I used to love 50 First dates when I was young, but the older I got the more it creeped me out
the second time you said "let's start with about time, which doesn't do too well on this front" i tripped out and thought i accidentally rewound the video. every time thereafter it became progressively funnier 😆
The way every category starts with "Let's start with About Time, which doesn't do too well on this front." 😂😂😂
THANK YOU FOR THIS TOPIC. I saw HBO's The Time Traveller's Wife and it felt so icky. It was odd how kid Theo James and Rose Leslie never met in any of the time leaps but grown Theo James constantly met child Rose Leslie. At least in the few episodes before I gave up on the show hahhhh
Aww, I was hoping the HBO show would improve on the book. 😞
Because his time travel is not in his control, he mostly goes back in time, rarely forward, and to things he knows. As a kid he doesn't know who she is yet so wouldn't be drawn there. When he's younger he usually is seeing his mother when time travelling.
From a book reader, in case you are interested.
@@UOweMe yeah but the point is the author could have written it differently he wrote a story about a grown man going back in time to see a little girl who grows fond of said old man and eventually becomes his wife 🤮 basically the author going it's not weird becauseeeee the whole time
@@Roblox-jb2vf the author is a woman actually. And it's more nuanced than that, because she grows up knowing that they'll be married one day, but the only reason he ever meets her as a child is because he meets her as an adult and falls in love with her then. It's very circular so cause and effect is muddled.
I'm not saying you need to like it or anything, just giving more context to the story.
@@UOweMe I mean the existential dread of him in his 20s goin did future me basically groom my own wife? this woman i am now falling in love with, it would have highlighted how much of a curse time travel was for his character even more 😭 but instead imo it's just creepy when played as a romance. I haven't read the book, but the movie and show definitely didn't handle it right 😭😭 the show did addresss it a bit more though
This explication of the horror from a woman's POV to a time-traveling male character is EXACTLY why the Peggy / Steve ending of Endgame is SO HORRIFYING to me. He erases her entire alternate history - the husband she was going to be with, etc. Even if you go with the option 2 that this is how it always was, that's just as horrifying in that he keeps so much of her job a secret from her (Hydra being hidden in SHIELD, that she heads up, etc).
YES! When the movie ended I turned to my friends and made a disgusted face, shaking my head. I identify with Steve a lot and it did both his character and Peggy supremely dirty. There's just so much wrong with it I can't even begin to list it. You already made great points.
I've grown to like the movie more than I initially did but I've never forgiven them for that. And overall, making it a timetravel story for memberberries' sake was already a really shitty move. Besides having a better plot than going back in time to get the stones, the movie also should have had more scenes like the one with Steve at the group therapy session.
Not to mention wasn’t he somehow romantically involved with her daughter? 😳😬 it’s been a long time since I’ve seen those movies
@@marissarose1667 It's her niece, but I still think that it's kinda icky.
And after all his been through to get Bucky back on his feet, it make no sense to me that he would just leave him alone in this new century.
A male friend in college recommended 50 first dates as "so funny" to me and two roommates. My roommates and I were all crying by the end of the movie, and thought it was horrific like explained in this video. He was confused about why we were upset.
the fifty first dates one is interesting because of the similar real life stories from people with anterograde amnesia. they obviously deserve to have relationships and love but i suppose there is no way that they could do that without being manipulated in some form.
Or being able to consent retroactively .
They could be relatively safe as long as they kept their own diary, and read their own complex thoughts when they woke up in the morning. To be more certain they can check that no pages have been torn out, and that it's in their own handwriting. As long as it was self led, it could meet most of the requirements of consent. Probably be better if they slept alone, so never woke with a stranger in their bed. Their are ways of dealing with most situations with enough learning and compassion. It's just that a guy telling a woman what to feel and that she loves him doesn't sound anything like that.
Yeah. For me, the problems of that movie were more about how they handled everything and not that they were in a relationship or that she had a child. Yeah, I'm gonna say it. Maybe having a child was always one of her life goals. So while the thought of waking up pregnant or during labor is really horrific, she might have argued about that with herself through a diary. Ofc we're not shown that process and that's what I found problematic. Because in the end, she was an adult woman with agency. Yeah, her memory only lasted for a day, but eventually she would wake up as an old woman. And if that's not shocking enough, she would also find out that she never did anything worthwile in her life (not saying that being married and having kids is the only worthwile thing you can do, but it's important for a lot of people). But now she has family, can look at photos of her travels etc. Reliving the same day over and over again would've only worked for a short period of time anyway. So why not do something she wants. Again, I don't want to defend the movie here since there are a lot of problems on how the people in her life handled her and her disability. But simply being in a relationship or even having a kid were not the biggest problems and wouldn't really have been if it was handled well.
I wonder how often that happens in real life though.
@@Eagle_Owl2 I agree. She deserved agency, and everyone treating her the way they did initially is messed up, though a sadly realistic thing that families do with disabled people, i.e. infantalizing them, making decisions for them without their consent, etc.
Any time travel plot could easily become a horror story, depending on how the time travel works. If you're going back and altering the past, you are not returning to the same present you came from originally, and those are not the same people you knew. You are in an alternate timeline, and likely trapped there. In a romance plot, this would speak to the shallowness of the relationship, as the time traveler would essentially be rerolling events to get the idealized alternate version of their partner. This is not the same person, and in fact, that person may be lost forever. These narratives treat this as the preferable outcome, as opposed to putting in the hard work on a relationship to get to know someone.
People are people, not objects to be manipulated, and not dice to be rerolled.
The catch to Fifty First Dates is that she seems to be someone who wants to fall in love, and if she were to wake up every day and find out what happened, it would be either a string of random one-night stands since it would be wrong for anyone to love her, which would be crushing, or waking up and finding that someone loved you. Either way is sad, but I think it would be worse for her to be expected to live a life of singlehood. When her father and brother die, who can be counted on to make sure she's taken care of and loved every day? Imagine waking up one day and you're 80 and in a nursing home and have no idea where the fuck you are, where time has gone, and you're another resident for that day's aid to dress and feed. Is that really a better outcome for Lucy compared to waking up pregnant every day for nine months? And scheduled c-sections exist to keep her from waking up in the middle of labor.
The form of amnesia she has is the horror, and no option is ideal. The one they showed is a man who started as an ass, then fell in love with her so much that he was willing to live with the heartache each night of knowing the new memories were going to be forgotten as soon as sleep hit.
Yeah, i am baffled that Ms Ellis spent no time in this video positing this contrary alternative for Drew Barrymore’s character. I think it’s a central issue that shapes the whole film.
@@truemakale A lot of people seem to want to jump right on a train of “Henry is a rapist” as if it wasn’t taking heart-wrenching dedication to know every memory would be gone by morning, and intense love to dedicate every single day to making that person see how special and loved they are. There as no malice. If he wanted a sex slave he could abuse and she’d forget by morning, or she was someone who didn’t care for a relationship and he saw changing her mind as a fun daily challenge-that would be bad. But he wanted her to still get to LIVE and laugh and love in a world that was going to change no matter what. He went from nice guy (nice guys are nice to get something) to good guy (good guys are good because it’s not about what they can get for themselves). He made sure she was going to have love and care in her life. But I’ve seen so many people who were rabid to jump on this film. I just can’t.
She has an actual disability and implying that she shouldn't have the right to a relationship or family because of that is also upsetting.
Her life is really, unfairly, hard. It would suck. I don't think her relationship is the scary thing. Imagine waking up in 50 years in a nursing home. Or after an injury. Or even just in a New home. The only way to avoid that horror is being trapped in a loop like her family did to her and that's not living.
The movie doesn’t care about about the inherent horror of the situation, so why should I? If the movie wasn’t a straight comedy, it could have been written in a way that struggles with these ethical questions. Instead it just brushes it off as a joke, and provides a “perfect” solution. Even if you think her ending up in a long term relationship is a good thing (which is a stretch… you cannot fall in love and commit to a person in one day) it is objectively horrific for her to have a child.
@@Tinyvalkyrie410everyone is (quite rightly) focusing on the horror of pregnancy & birth with no memory, but imagine caring for a baby whose cues you cannot learn? Nap & feeding schedule could be written down for her, but she’s going to wake up to a crying baby over & over with no parenting experience every time. Not to mention the child, whose mother meets them for the first time every day
I am so grateful for this important dialogue. Particularly the part where you point out that these characters aren't real people, they are an extension of the writer's fantasy and problematic view of unequal power in relationships. I see so many analyses where the person makes leaps of 'what the character would do' without acknowledging, a real person WROTE them that way. They could just as easily have wrote them aware of their horrific actions, but they don't. Because the writer doesn't see it as horrific. And that's the problem.
Extraordinary on Disney plus actually shows a horrifying example of time manipulation which leads to a relationship's manipulation. They do really well with showing how creepy and fucked up it is.
I've been thinking that EXACT is the same thing for years about 50 first dates. Finally, someone talks about how weird and creepy that movie was!
What do you think of the Doctor and River Song's relationship? The whole thing is so inherently tied up with them both being time travelers, and is highly complicated by the fact that they always meet out of order. I mean, the Doctor literally first meets River on the day she dies. Later in the Doctor's timeline, before he meets her again, he meets River's mother as a 7-year-old girl. You get the picture. But despite all this, maybe their relationship is more equal _because_ they are both time travelers, and not just one of them?
I honestly dislike their dynamic just bcos of how uneven it is, it may seem balanced, but from the start with River Song basically NOT giving the Doctor agency or choice on who he'd be giving his name with is just so.. icky for me. Like she basically pushed it so he would have no choice but to "marry" this unknown woman nor any sort of possible romantic development just went out the window since it's made that, either way, the Doctor has no choice but to tell her his name, whether he actually likes her or not. Add that to the fact that the Doctor also saw her dying in front of him the 1st time just makes it seem like the whole time it was out of pity and not rlly genuine feelings.
I don't know, but I'm here for the choice of freely loving a person and not bcos of having no choice but to do it bcos of a possible time loop that needed to be done.
@@LilVeehive I think it’s more unequal in the opposite direction. River first meets the doctor as a baby and then when she has to kill him, but at this point the doctor is already married to her and he pursues her. So the same is true for River. She doesn’t have a choice. She is 20, gives up her regeneration cycle and later dies. All of her adult life she has been dating the doctor and all her childhood she was constantly reminded of her fate (killing him or by Amy about how wonderful he is). The Doctor has a life before and after River. River does not. River’s whole life is only about the doctor.
@@LilVeehive technically the doctor is a child groomer
@@trrt2719 reasons I hate how Steven Moffat writes women
“Predestination” might be the ultimate time travel romance / horror film that no one has brought up yet.
such an amazing film!!
But... can you unknowingly rape yourself? Story was better.
I just did in another comment, although I don't think it fits the romance or horror genres.
Interesting how the story is no longer funny and romantic when a young woman is the one doing the traveling. Reminds me of My Best Friend's Wedding and Made of Honor.
Yes! Heaven forbid a woman should pursue her own goals and desires; that's a man's job 🙄 luckily she's punished at the end so none of us gets any dangerous ideas.
Whenever I tell people that I find “50 first days” horrifying and extremely creepy I always get weird looks, nobody never understands why😢. So it’s nice to have a whole video about it! (Yes I feel the same about the pregnancy thing too)
Remembering how low key traumatised I was by the butterfly effect after seeing it as a kid 😅
Random comment but I couldn't resist lol
I read a time travel Harry Potter fanfic that was inspired by the time travelers wife and the creepy factor was removed since the characters already knew each other before the time traveling stuff and were adults throughout everything. It was an enemies to lovers story, with lots of character growth as a result of the time traveling. Very well written. I'm going to go read it again.
i need to know the title and where to read
@@jodielee6253same
Sameee
The time traveler's wife is probably the first movie I can remember seeing where I realized how problematic it was while watching it.
So happy to hear 'Palm springs' mentioned, it's such a great film and I love how much healthier the relationship is between Sarah and Nyles than in most films in the time loop/time travel vein and how much more agency and complexity Sarah has, it's so refreshing and important. :)
The ending of 50 first dates has haunted me for over a decade and I'm so glad I've finally found someone as horrified as I am. I watched it in a psych class in high school (after we'd taken the final but before the end of the year when you're just killing time for a few days) and at the end when they have kids my very first thought was of waking up 8 months pregnant with no memory of how it happened. It was the scariest thing in the world to me. I'm a lover of horror movies and can honestly say that the implications of this Adam Sandler romcom are more horrific to me than any horror movie I've seen or heard of.
Just to say a couple of your points on consent have been raised in similar ways by other series. In Buffy the Vampire slayer (tv series) Willow makes Tara forget an argument using witchcraft. Tara is APPALLED when she finds out and breaks up with her on the spot! That’s a normal reaction! In Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind the guy who erases Clementine’s memory starts replaying the date she had with her ex boyfriend (which he had erased) she knows it feels horrible and wrong freaks out and runs away! These are natural reactions to this type of thing! This is how women would feel!!!!!!
Edited coz I type badly!
Your hair is absolutely phenomenal!!!
Came to say the same thing! The coloring is gorgeous and the Farrah 'do looks great on Rowan!
I read The Time Traveller's Wife as a kid, and hated it sooo much. Could not get over the weird grooming-y bits of the first part
Another time travel romance that comes to mind for me (that Moffat was involved in developing, a bit of a trend for him huh) is the River Song arc in Doctor Who.
Personally never really liked it. I suppose I should have have felt sad for her when she's introduced, as it is her last meeting with the Doctor but his first. But I struggled to feel connected when it's the wrong end of the story for us as an audience too. And just felt weird about them hardly ever meeting on truly equal terms when they are on opposite timelines throughout, except for the very middle I guess. I struggled to see how a genuine connection could be formed under such circumstances, and so I didn't really care as much as a viewer
River is such a good character and honestly, being just the Doctor's wife is a disserivce to her. Her story could still work if she's not a love interest and is instead a close friend or something similar. Like the Doctor befriending someone meant to kill him is such a Docotor thing to do.
You don't necessarily feel sad for her on first viewing. Even the Doctor is not that sad, because he hasn't lived it yet. You're supposed to be intrigued. How does this woman know so much about him? Why does she have a screwdriver so similar to his? She's just supposed to prick your interest a little at first. I'll admit, the first couple of times they brought her back, I was was WTF are they doing. And then I started thinking about it. How it worked, the implications of going in opposite directions, and I was hooked.
Granted, there's a quite a bit of creepy here too if you look too hard. He went and saved her as child. He was her personal hero. She was kidnapped and molded into his assassin. They would have taught her a lot about him in order to track him and to get close to him. ("Take a child, raise her into a perfect psychopath, introduce her to the Doctor. Who else was I going to fall in love with?"). I could totally see her becoming enamored of him. And I think a large part of it was due to an underestimation of her intelligence. I could total see him being fascinated by her, like in a "this doesn't quite make sense in my mind" kind of way. Most of River & the Doctor's story is off-screen. It's simply teased at and implied.
It's the same thing that made Kylo Ren such and interesting character for me, especially during The Last Jedi. (Well that and Adam Driver.). The implication of what had to happen as he was growing up to turn Ben Solo into the Kylo Ren we see in TLJ is fascinating to me.
It seems viewers these days want a lot spelled out for them, and if they don't see it on screen, regardless if it was stated that it happened off screen or especially if it's only implied, then it didn't happen. I'm just guilty of this just as much as anyone. But, with these characters, I think they are all the more interesting for having to fill in your own blanks.
THANK YOU for discussing 50 first dates. I remember my mom showing me the movie when I was a teenager, framing it as this sweet romcom. It always felt like such a horror movie for me, especially the manipulation and when you think about how she's ripped out of her familiar, stable environment or how pregnancy would feel like with her condition. How tf is that romantic or a sweet comedy?!
Thank youuuuu. My mom made me watch 50 First Dates because she loves it and thinks it's romantic but the ending left me horrified. I had that exact terrible thought about how she might've felt waking up suddenly pregnant (on a boat, effectively held captive by this man she doesn't really know).
This reminds me of Sunshine of an Eternal Mind. It's toted as this great triumph of love, but at the end of the film, I was so sad. To me, it's bleak and depressing; no matter how many do overs you have, you'll still be drawn to each other just to end up hurting one another again. Love doesn't prevail; the ingrained and harmful societal pressure to make a relationship work at any cost does.
Also, Lost Girl approached this concept in one episode and I think they did a decent job of it.
I wrote a short story about a time loop in my fiction writing class. It was supposed to show OCD and obsessive perfectionism as the protagonist kept trying to get the day ridiculously perfect and was never satisfied because the world wasn’t perfect - whenever she fixed something, something else would go wrong. One of these problems is that she has a boyfriend who wanted to break up with her, and she tries to convince him not to. They’re both obviously miserable in their relationship, but she manages to manipulate him after dozens of tries to keep them both in this mutually toxic relationship. I think romance in time loops is almost always going be somewhat toxic, so I decided to make that part of the commentary
One of my favourite pieces of time travel media is the show Being Erica. Basically this woman feels unfulfilled at the age of 32 and after an accidental allergic reaction she is busted by a time travelling therapist who gets her to list her biggest regrets in her life and then sends her back to those moments in time for a do-over. It’s a really cool show.
sounds like the book The Midnight Library
I haven't thought about this show in years but I remember really liking it. I wonder if it holds up....
One of the best episodes of Agents of SHIELD is the time loop one in the final season, and there is a romance element to it. However, it’s not creepy because the love interest is continually informed about the situation and the character reliving the loop only kisses him after a conversation WHERE HE ADMITS HE LIKES HER!! They have more pressing issues than a relationship, so once they get out of the loop she leaves it alone until he goes for it and kisses her a couple of episodes later.