I discovered this video a year too late, and I had to check online to see if Dr. Rittner survived his kidney issue, and I’m very sad to see that he passed away. When I saw the duration of these videos, I thought I was going to be fast forwarding a lot, but he was such a captivating guest all throughout. I had never listened to the western hemisphere’s leading Egyptologist analyze the facsimiles I have known since childhood. He had such expertise and crazy rare translation abilities. His enthusiasm for the subject comes across as calm yet still so infectious. As soon as he mentioned his love for the Boris Karloff Mummy movie in the previous video, I knew I liked this guy. That Chicago was the leading city in Egyptology in America makes me even more proud of my college town.
Living in Utah my whole life as a non Mormon and not part of the culture, I used to argue these points exhaustively and how ludicrous they are. But after listening to your podcasts more and more I see it’s not to show how demonstrably false the church is, but as a tool to help those indoctrinated heal. It’s hard to see from the outside initially, but now I see how difficult it is when a whole society has been brainwashed since birth. Good luck on your mission to help those who want answers slowly work their way to some reconciliation.
equinox project that’s how I see it. I used to be a militant atheist but that just assumes people have the same logic. The book by Joseph Campbell myths to live by helped me see religious people in a different light. I hate the word victim, but epistemology of circumstance I think is accurate
As an exmormon, who lived in Utah 20yrs.. I've learned that discussing the flaws in Mormonism doesn't work..Im starting to think it's like teaching children about the birds n the bees.. you talk about it, when they're ready.
I have been mulling over the decision to leave the church for three years. I recently finalized that decision and began the process of removing my records. I did not come across this podcast until today and I am both given help and comfort from Dr. Ritner’s expert words and sad to learn of his passing just a few months ago. I had hoped to email him after listening to all of this and thank him for his time. Regardless, thank you for bringing him on and doing this podcast. This is important.
You could still email the school or his department at the school. I am sure they would like to hear about how much influence Dr. Ritner's work still has.
I’m not Mormon, but I am interested in Mormonism + the current debate around it. This series has been very very wonderful for me because it brings up such a diverse amount of Egyptological knowledge, I’ve learned so many new and fascinating things. Rest in peace Dr Ritner - you were a true educator
Brilliant refutation of Gee, Muhlestein and LDS apologetics. THANK YOU all for doing this to properly educate us properly on the Egyptian materials concerning the Book of Abraham. God bless you all! As a former apologist and one of the original founders of FAIR, I am very glad I no longer have to argue against the Egyptologists. The dishonesty of LDS apologetics is appalling!
As a former member who followed your channel during my "faith crisis", I was frequently astounded at the lengths you would go to defend the Mormon church. Your contortion of the truth was one of the very things that convinced me that the church was NOT true. How could the true church of Christ be based on such misrepresentations and outright lies? It is refreshing to me to see that you were able to arrive at the point where you were willing to look at the facts rather than continue to tout the Mormon apologies.
As a professional adult trainer (computer science) it is refreshing to listen to someone (Dr. Ritner, RIP) who actually knows what he is talking about. When non-experts speak they are all over the place, Dr. Ritner speaks to the point, like a razor blade. Thank you for these interviews!!!!
3:00:25 June 6, 2023...I too, binge watched Dr. Ritner podcasts on Mormon Stories. My eyes never glazed over, I sat on the edge of my seat totally enthralled. I think that anyone listening to this fabulous teacher would know he speaks true. Shame on the Mormon Church for trying to undermine or insinuate that he is less than genuine. May he Rest in Peace. The world has lost one of the greats.
John, I disagree that people's eyes and ears are glazing over and they'll just say "well, the experts disagree" -- but then, I'm not looking only for evidence to prove the historicity of Mormonism. I think Dr. Ritner did an AMAZING job not only of "showing his work" but of doing so in a very articulate yet understandable way, and he tied everything together. I think we should give people a little more credit for being able to understand difficult concepts that are well articulated. For the people who will still believe the apologists after paying close attention to Dr. Ritner, I don't think any evidence will change their minds -- at least not yet. I found this two-part podcast to be extremely fascinating and educational. Thank you, Dr. Ritner!
After many tries slogging through Nibley, as my mother raved about his "deeper doctrine" work, and wondering if his convoluted, meandering lectures were typical of world renowned scholars (I attended community college). Dr. Ritner has been a breath of fresh air who explains symbols, theories, the related mythology and history in an incredible way so anyone can understand it.
As I have listened carefully to these podcasts, I truly appreciate Dr. Ritner's explanations that are simple enough for a housewife to understand. It also has occurred to me that these mummies (and the papyri that accompanied them) are actually bodies of formerly living Egyptians, whose graves were robbed. It seems very disrespectul to me that these peoples' remains were so cavalierly treated and displayed. The Mormon church's founder and subsequent leaders continued this disrespectful treatment. And to take these papyri and use them to falsify supposed "scripture" is even more unbelievable. The comparison of what Joseph Smith supposedly 'translated' and the translation of a qualified and scholarly Egyptologist is eye-opening and mind-blowing. Thank you, Dr. Ritner, for taking the time and energy to contribute your expertise to these podcasts.
Great presentation! TLDW: Joseph Smith is not an effective Egyptian translator. BOA was a heavy load on my shelf. The finances of the church was the final straw. The church uses weak apologetics and money to create the smoke and mirrors for the illusion of the BOA “translation” to continue. I chuckled at Dr Ritner’s joke ~2:54:00. 😁
I am sickened and appalled as to the lengths at which morman apologists will go to lie to build a faith promoting story. I can't believe I was deceived for so long by this hoax.
You would think people who believe themselves to be members of "the only true church" would be more honest. If the LDS religion was actually true, everyone would know it because the evidence would support it, and it would be all over the Americas.
These apologists have sacrificed their integrity for what? They can only be a laughingstock in their profession. The Book of Abraham is such a transparent fraud I don’t think that even the Amazing Randi, who devoted a whole chapter to the Cottingly Fairies would spend more than a page on it. In one sense, I suppose, it’s a shame that a brilliant scholar should spend so much time nailing down each and every slimy evasion and distraction used to defend this transparent flummery.I suppose that if Smith had made a reference to the Cardiff Giant, they’d hunt up some Mormon archeologist to defend it.
@@huffpappy QUOTE If the LDS religion was actually true, everyone would know it because the evidence would support it, and it would be all over the Americas. UNQUOTE Correct. IF MORmONISM was really 1 percent as great as the MORmONS claim then everyone would want to join. IF Joseph Smith had produced the untranslated golden tablets as indication of his being divinely guided instead of his Book of MORmON translation text then Smith would have been much more impressive. IF Smith had not indulged in "polygamy"/ adultery then the MORmON church would be much larger. It would still be a scam, but it would have been able to gather many more converts and be much bigger.
@@brianholly3555 I don't think it's a shame that Dr Ritner has spent so much time on the Book of Abraham and its facsimiles as he as helped people see the truth of it.
Dr. Ritner is a true scholar. As he said, the conclusion has to make sense in the whole context. Some scholars though have not learned to deal with their own biases and, therefore, they only use the “evidence” that would seem to agree with what they want the result to be. This is what the Mormon apologists are essentially doing. Because any result that contradicts Joseph Smith’s translations have serious consequences for their own belief in Joseph Smith as a “prophet,” their research will tend to produce conclusions that agree with their preconception. Therefore, their own biases and egos will not allow them (the apologists) to remain objective. They can’t or their religion is false. As researchers, we will encounter evidence that goes against our belief in our research. In these cases, we can’t doctor the evidence to match our desired result. We have to conclude what we have evidence for, not what we want it to be because our belief is at stake.
Reasonably intelligent people CAN understand!! Thank you so much for explaining all of this in a respectful way. I’ve very much enjoyed both the 1st and 2nd videos!
Thank you to everyone involved in this video. I have been trying to understand what is really going on with the Book of Abraham. The LDS church has been very misleading in their explanation of how it was written. This video has been so very helpful. Thank you again for spreading truth.
This podcast was so good! Thanks Dr Ritner, Jon, and RFM for doing this. As kid I remember my dad and I looking at these facsimiles and being amazed that we (church members) had the answers nobody else had! Thank you Dr Ritner for setting this mystery of the unknown segments straight for me! You’re the man!
I've enjoyed studying Greek and Egyptian mythology for the last several years. This was excellent and everything Dr. Ritner taught aligns very nicely with things I've learned. What a treasure!
I love Dr. Rittner. I love his subtle, intelligent humor. Thank you for this! Spent 8 hours straight listening to this and loved every minute. The apologist rebuttal is hanging by the most erroneous thread. Please, take a note from F.A.R.M.S and give up already.
Dr.Ritner is such an intelligent ,engaging,eye opening, no bs ray of light so refreshing to hear him speak .Thank you for sharing these discussion & the Dr. for his time I've learned so much .
I am appalled how any present day morman could believe in book of Abraham. The mormon apologists even those from BYU have no shame in ignoring proper scholarship concerning Joseph Smith's lying and chicanery.
The word "Kolob" comes from the 1825 travel book "Modern Traveller: Arabia" Duncan pg 145. "but the Ikonomos, whom the Arabs call the kolob, is the true head of the community and manages all of it's affairs." The Josiah Conder map of Arabia that was published in this book is also notable for the source of the word "Nahom" and "Irreantum" leading many to believe Joseph Smith had access to this book and map. Finding the word "kolob" in the same book strengthens that theory.
I love the pragmatism of the Egyptians. There's no ghost to torment our effigy, guess we'll have to make one. There's an element of logic and practicality to their practice of religion that seems refreshing in comparison to the mainstream religions today.
Joseph Smith got so cocky that he was willing to risk being found out just to keep looking like a prophet. Honestly nothing else needs to be addressed. This is the number one biggest problem in my opinion. Once you realize this issue, the whole Pearl of Great Price breaks apart. Goodbye racist teachings. Goodbye Kolob. I won't be "highing" there in a twinkling of an eye.
Exactly what I thought. Once you know JS couldn’t translate the papyrus (and it’s provable), the whole church’s claim falls apart. All it took for me to resign was this piece of knowledge.
Two Mormon missionaries came to me and said after I ask them something about the Book of Mormon. They said “ listen , if Jose smith is a false prophet, this book is not true , then the church not true “ then he continued “ but I know this is true and you can pray about it , and you will receive the answer that it’s true”… I said , but I received the answer that is not true because I can read and I also found out that many things the book says are completely false. By the time I said that to them I wasn’t even getting my hands into the book of Abraham 🙄 .. Sooo frustrating! Young missionaries are very misled ! I remember how every time the children will give their testimony ( not about Jesus ) in front of everyone in the chapel , their parents will whisper to their ears “ I believe that Joseph smith is a true prophet of god , and I believe this church is the only true church … every Sunday I will hear and see this!
Wonderful. So informative and important interview! Thank you! These interviews with Dr. Ritner should be obligatory for every seminary and institute teacher.
I am continually amazed how loosley the word translation is used in Mormondom. I am of the highly supported opinion the words "complete fabrication' are far more appropriate. There simply was never a shred of translation performed anywhere on anything.
This is all so informative, interesting and amazing. I discovered the lies a yr ago and it sent me tumbling. Now, on this side of things, I think, “why don’t we just live life while we’re here instead of all this chaotic nothing, empty nonsense.” Religion (all) wastes our “turn on earth.” Thank you Dr. Ritner
Much gratitude to you Dr. Ritner for your efforts to get the truth out to people who need it badly. Be safe and well Dr. Ritner. Truth to Power is always difficult but it repays a thousand times over one's efforts.
I'm not Mormon and have no vested interest in the Book of Abraham, but this series has been a really interesting study of ancient Egyptian religious belief.
Wasn't sure about this Podcast as I've never been a Mormon - BUT it's fascinating , crucial and a game changer I'd say. Love Ancient Eygptian history. Brilliant!
I'm so glad that the mummy peddler came to town. I mean, he basically inadvertently provided JSjr with the perfect opportunity to expose himself as the liar he was. And thanks to Jsjr's enormous ego at that time, he walked right into a trap that would probably become the biggest smoking gun of his fraudulent career.
Many years ago, I've read in an encyclopedia that Medieval Europeans practiced a ritual of killing a human at a new cemetery. The purpose was to make a ghost that would protect the cemetery either from thieves or from other ghosts.
This is fascinating. Thank you Dr. Ritner for taking the time to set the record straight. I watched you in another video by FlackerMan on the Book of Abraham ( ruclips.net/video/_KLa8HYsfpM/видео.html ) , and I was impressed with your knowledge. I sincerely hope you can be cured of your kidney disease. I don't remember where I read it but some contemporary commentator who was not Egyptian wrote of what a happy and wonderful place ancient Egypt was. I'll have to try to find that again. It would be so incredible to be able to go back to that time and see Egypt in its glory. On LDS apologists: It is because of people like them that peer review in academia is so important. If these bozos were actually speaking/publishing the truth, then the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon would be accepted by academics, and the archaeological evidence would be there to back them up. What's in both books would be taught as history. What really happens is they find one little thing that they relate in a convoluted or out right false way to the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham and then say that one little thing proves they are true. Turning tapirs into horses or saying flint knives are the same as steely knives is just so intellectually dishonest! These guys should have their PhD's pulled. I guess some people jusr can't handle the truth.
Almost four years ago I decided to set my beliefs aside, and follow the evidence. I figured the BoM was the place to start, and came to RUclips. The first thing I found was Flackerman's video on the BoA. My "testimony" was gone. How any rational, thinking person, who cares about what is true, could believe these things astounds me. My wife is TBM to the max, and her feelings mean more to her than truth. And I personally think that's what it boils down to for most Mormons. When your entire life, identity, family, social relationships, everything, is based on a story, that story HAS to be true. No questions. No doubt. They sacrifice all they have for that story, even their morality, and anyone who walks away has been deceived. Lied to by the devil. It's a cult, and it's harmful. I'm so thankful for Mormon Stories, Flackerman, Jeremy Runnels, the Tanners, Matt Dillahunty, Brian Dalton, Mike Norton, it's a huge list. I was so ready to hate these people. I was wrong.
@@RB-zh1eq It must be hard on your relationship with your wife. I have a good friend who is in the same boat as you, and it definitely has cause major strains for them. I left the church about 15 years ago, and it was no big deal since I was the only Mormon in my family. At the time, the website I found was exmormon.org. Reading the personal stories on that website helped me to finally leave the church. When the entire house of cards is built on Joseph Smith, and you find out what a conman and fraud he was, well, the hole thing quickly falls apart. I ended up as a total non-believer. The same rational thought process that led me out of the LDS church sank any belief in any god. There is simply no credible evidence for any being who we humans would call a god. There may be a creator of some sort, but I'm sure that being would have far more important things to do than piddle in the lives of humans. I wish the internet had been around back in 1978 when I joined the church because with the information available today, I would have never taken the plunge (pun intended). I thank all the same people you listed and know that it would be impossible to thank them all, but I want to include special thanks to Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, and Sam Harris. I have learned so much from them that I will be forever in their debt.
Dr.Ritner thank you for giving your time and your humor to this podcast group of students! I look forward to reading your books on Egyptian religion and seeing the beautifully drawn images you reference. Wishing you better health and a kidney match.
I absolutely love and appreciate the information and in-depth explanation of his knowledge. I am sad this discussion seems to be so underated. I have no knowledge in egyptology and because of that was taken advantage of by the LDS church (along with many others). I was a convert and asked questions that were appeased by apologist explanations, I am saddened I did not come across something like this while I was an investigator. I have been out of the church for about 13 years, I was a member for only 5 years (endowed and sealed in the temple) and am still healing from trauma caused by being so devoted to the faith. Thank you Dr. Ritner for dissecting this information with such clarity and thank you Mormon Stories for your content.
SUMMARY 14. The book of Abraham revolved around a story of religious human sacrifice to Pharaoh's gods. This was not a tradition of the Egyptians. John Gee claims that Dr. Ritner admits there is human sacrifice in his dissertation. Dr. Ritner refutes this by saying that there was rare instances of killing humans involved with Egyptian ritual, but it was nothing like what is described in the book of Abraham. The key Egyptian ritual in point involves placing a voodoo doll of your enemies near a graveyard so that the angry ghosts of the graveyard can vicariously torture the enemy represented by the voodoo doll. In rare circumstances a graveyard was unavailable so they would execute criminals to create a graveyard so the ritual may be performed. The human was not ritually sacrificed to worship a god, but rather killed to enable a curse ritual. 15. Egyptian culture was actually opposite of that which is described in the book of Abraham. Instead of performing human sacrifice on those who didn't worship their gods, they didn't care which gods you worshipped. They were in the business of adding gods to their list of gods to worship not punishing people who have a different god not within their current list. Egyptians eventually added Abraham's god "Yahweh" (named "Yao" in Egyptian) to their list of gods. There was only one Egyptian king that embraced monotheism of the sun-disk god, and he was the only king who punished those who didn't worship his god, but that was only in 1300 BCE (Around the time of Moses, not Abraham). 16. Facsimile 2 is claimed to be paired with facsimile 1 in representing the story of Abraham, yet facsimile 2 actually comes from a separate mummy than the mummy in facsimile 1. Additionally, facsimile 2 is a circle, and only comes in circle form (hypocephalus) because it is used as a pillow for the head of a mummy. There is no way that it was included on a roll with facsimile 1, which is in scroll form. 17. The LDS church made it very hard for Dr. Ritner to get access to the original Egyptian documents for analysis. 18. Joseph Smith has access to a scroll for a 3rd mummy. He uses information from a 3rd mummy to fill in the blanks on the damaged portion of the circle shown in facsimile 2. 19. The outer rim of the circle contains text relating to the genesis of creation in Egyptian mythology. The text in the outer rim is standard text that is very common on these circle forms. Part of the text is missing from the outer rim. Instead of filling it in with the proper pattern of text that is known to be common there, text from facsimile 1 papyrus was injected into the blanks incorrectly. 20. The three different documents come from three different mummies with different time periods of Egyptian language evolution. By mixing and matching between them to fill in the blanks of each other, Joseph fraudulently included older Egyptian language with a newer Egyptian language document and vice versa. 21. The center of facsimile 2 was blank in the original documents and then filled in inaccurately by Joseph Smith. Normally a four headed god would be attached to the central mound or the three mounds, the central mound functioning as the neck of the god. Joseph Smith obviously wasn't aware that the mound functioned as the god's neck, so he copy and pasted the two headed god at the top of the circle and placed the two headed god next to the mound, but unattached. 22. Since these circles functioned as pillows to bless mummies, the imagery was fairly standard so they could be mass produced and the name of the mummy could be added. Therefore we should expect Joseph Smiths corrections to match the traditional pattern, which it doesn't do very well. 23. Chapter 3 of the book of Abraham is based on facsimile 2. Apologists are trying to claim that the book of Abraham was a revelation inspired by receiving the papyrus but not necessarily directly related to it, yet the book of Abraham specifically claims that "TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS, BY JOSEPH SMITH" and "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus." 24. Kolob is not an Egyptian word, it seems to be related to a Hebrew construction of the word for "center", perhaps intentionally summoned by Joseph after his studies of Hebrew. 25. The Egyptian pictographs contain nothing pertaining to 1000 years, or the location of God's throne. 26. Jah-oh-eh, Oliblish, Raukeeyang, Enish-go-on-dosh, and ____ are not Egyptian words 27. In figure 2 of facsimile 2, JS references Abraham via a Egyptian symbol representing an alter of lotus flowers and wine jars, yet this is merely JS copying over incorrect interpretation of from facsimile 1 into the blank spots of facsimile 2. 28. Figure 3 of facsimile 2 is loosely correct in identifying the "sun" shaped object above the god's head as symbolic of a crown of eternal light, power, and authority. Yet we know that this was a mere coincidence since everything in figure 3 was just copy and pasted from another document into a blank spot of the hypocephalus. There is also an interesting coincidence, in that the eye of Horus was also copied over, the eye being emblematic of health, which is a secret blessing in the Tempe. 29. Figure 4 does not mean 1000 in Egyptian as claimed by JS. 30. Figure 5 does not have anything to do with planets, but it does symbolize the sky that carries the sun. 31. Figure 6 does not represent earth's four quarters, it represents mummy organ containers that represent the four sons of Horus. The four sons of Horus have nothing to do with the four cardinal directions. If you wanted to personify the four corners of the earth or the four cardinal directions with a deity, you would add a snake symbol to the Egyptian word for North/South/East/West, you would not use the four sons of Horus. There is a loose connection in that anything connected to the number four can loosely be connected to the four cardinal directions. Apologists have found an Egyptian text that they cite as backing the claim that the four sons of Horus represent the four cardinal directions - but if you analyze the Egyptian text, the four sons of Horus are being sent to the four cardinal directions for business with the gods located at the four cardinal directions. The sons of Horus don't represent the cardinal directions even in this text, the other gods already located at the four cardinal directions would have a better chance of representing those locations. 32. Apologists make an argument that the four sons of Horus represent the four gods namely Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, which are worshiped by the people residing in the locations of four different cardinal directions and try to place Elkenah as a god in Syria. But based on the apologist's prior text connecting the four cardinal directions with the four sons of Horus, the falcon God supposedly representing Elkenah would necessarily represent the people to the west of Egypt since the falcon son of Horus was sent to the west. Therefore you cannot connect a Syrian god to the Abrahamic Elkenah (Syria is not to the west), you must connect a Libyan god to Elkenah. 33. Apologists claim Shinehah is an Egyptian word, but while sounding Egyptian, in a global search of all Egyptian words, this combination of sounds never get put together. 34. Nothing in the text implies that the four sons of Horus are meant to be representing the four cardinal directions, the normal interpretation would be that they are the four spirits guiding and helping the mummy perform the resurrection. 35. In figure 7, Joseph Smith confuses the holy spirit in the form of a dove with the symbol for a lizard. The other details are loosely accurate. Next to god are symbols that look like the square and the compass in masonic symbology, but that is merely God's arm is raised to the square with a flail on top of his hand. There is an appendage that looks like a second arm extended (for Mormon ritual purposes), but that is supposed to represent an erect penis for how God creates everything with masturbation. This appendage has been removed and re-added over the course of scriptural edit history. 36. Figures 8 through 11 included areas that were blank in the original document. Egyptian text was inserted into the black spots, yet interpreted by JS in a way that is upside-down, were 11 should be read first instead of fourth. The name of the mummy was supposed to be written in the top right edge of the hypocephalus, but that piece was broken off, yet maintained by JS as a fragment. JS used the fragment to inject it into the blank spot for Figure 8, therefore we can know name of the mummy (Shehshauk) despite the name not being placed in the right spot on the hypocephalus. But since JS had documents from four mummies, we cannot be sure if the name Shehshauk was the name for this hypocephalus in particular. 37. Figure 11 is closer in meaning to that which JS ascribed to figure 8, in that it is discussing God. Figure 11 does not contain secret numbers as claimed by JS. 38. JS says that figures 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 will be given in the own due time of the Lord. JS tried to translate all of the things that were pictorial, yet dodged explanation for the parts of the hypocephalus that was actually text. 39. Two baboons are just praising god.
SUMMARY Facsimile 3 displays five characters in Egyptian mythology. A female Isis on the far left standing behind Osiris who is seated (often shown next to a display of flowers on an alter). The goddess of truth is holding the hand of a dead man who is being brought before Osiris on his path to paradise. Both the goddess of truth and the dead man have ostrich feathers on their heads. The dead man has been prepared by the Anubis, the god of ointments for mummies, who is shown on the far right. This is the rite of passage for the dead man to be granted access to paradise by Osiris. 40. JS claims that the man (1) sitting is Abraham on Pharaoh's throne, while not Abraham, it is a throne. The hat is specific to Osiris - no living man can wear that hat. 41. JS claims that the person (2) behind Abraham/Osiris is the Pharaoh giving his throne to Abraham. JS further confuses the word Pharaoh as a name rather than a title and claims that name Pharaoh is written above his head. JS misgendered this individual in that she is actually Isis, a goddess, with notable feminine features like long hair and a dress. The text above her head does not say "Pharaoh" but rather "Isis the great, the god's mother" (reading from top to bottom the text above her head). Pharaoh is one of the most common words in Egyptian - most beginning students of Egyptian can recognize the symbols for Pharaoh. JS is failing to translate at even a beginners level. 42. The catalyst theory of Abrahamic translation theory is completely wrong, as JS admits here that he is translating specific text, not merely using this document to inspire an unrelated revelation. 43. For the third time, JS incorrectly identifies an alter with lotus flowers as representing Abraham in Egypt. 44. JS incorrectly identifies the goddess of truth as the prince of Pharaoh, again misgendering a character. The sun symbol above the head symbolizes that the individual is divine. JS claimed that his name is written above his hand - a name was written in that location, but it doesn't say "Prince of Pharaoh" but rather "Mahawt, the goddess of the west". 45. JS claims that the dead individual approaching Osiris is Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters. JS claims that his name is written above his hand, yet instead of saying "Shulem" it says "The Osiris Hor, the justified forever", Hor being the owner of the tomb, owner of this text, the central figure in the story approaching ressurection. 46. The bottom rim of facsimile 3 states the following - "Oh gods of the necropolis, gods of the caverns, gods of the south, north, west, and east, grant salvation to the Osiris Hor, the justified, born by Taikabet, his mother's name." Interesting that the text mentions the four cardinal directions, yet the image doesn't contain the four sons of Horus that JS and apologists insist represent the cardinal directions. 47. The central theme here is that the dead man can join the gods becoming a god himself, not Abraham taking the seat of Pharaoh and reasoning upon the principles of Astronomy, in the king’s court. 48. Apologists claim that it is okay to have Isis represent Pharaoh because in Roman parades (centuries later), some Romans dressed up like a woman to cosplay Isis, but there is absolutely no logical justification for this conclusion as what the Romans do has no connection to what the Egyptians do. 49. JS claimed that the black looking individual is Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince - getting tricked by the color of the character. The text above doesn't confirm that but rather says "Words spoken by Anubis who makes protection, lord of heaven, foremost of the westerners." For decades, one portion of this text was too hard to read for Egyptologists, so apologists played the "Joseph Smith's translation is within the gaps" game, yet now the whole thing is translatable so there is no excuse for an incorrect translation. 50. The original document for facsimile 3 doesn't exist, so it is harder for us to know what JS filled in. It is possible that JS converted Anubis's dog head to a human head because of damage to the original. Anubis's dog ear was preserved, despite being converted to a human incorrectly.
This video series is a wonderful presentation with extremely valuable information. Now it is up to LDS members to assess the facts provided and make an honest assessment of Joseph Smith’s ministry.
I remember as young missionary discovering that the depictions in #7 seemed to match the signs and symbols taught in the temple. My mind was blown haha
You know you are getting to the church when you log on to this podcast and are met with a Mormon advert. Church News, Nelson explaining that only true salvation is through the Temple.
One need only read Smith's statement 'Pharaoh, the king of Egypt' ( BOA chapter 1, vs, 8 ) to realize Smith had no understanding that the word 'Pharaoh' is not a personal name.
Dr Ritner refers to his publication "The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice" , Human Sacrifice, 2:17:15--ff, foot-note 750 on page 162, in connection with the canopic jar gods possibly representing the cardinal directions. The reference may be downloaded from the Oriental Institute of The University of Chicago, 4th Printing 2008, (SAOC 54) at the URL link following: oi.uchicago.edu/research/publications/saoc/saoc-54-mechanics-ancient-egyptian-magical-practice-fourth-printing-2008 Thank you, Dr Robert K Ritner; a really fabulous read.
Thank you Dr. Ritner for you passion, knowledge, research, and insight into Egyptology, along with the BoA! Just to clarify - are there any other Egyptologists outside of Mormon circles (Gee and Muhlstein) who take the BoA seriously?
Charles Mendeley 100% he did not take it seriously, in terms of it being a valid translation. It’s literally a handful of Mormon Egyptologists vs the rest of academic community in the world. I’m trying to show someone how ridiculous the church’s claims are by highlighting the fact that, outside of Mormon circles, no experts take the BoA seriously.
My thanks for all this work, for Dr. Ritner for taking time to actually analyse the fscsimile, with nothing to gain but giving the viewers a good lesson about Egypt and clarification regarding the "translation" made by Joseph Smith. Thank you to John and RFM for giving a platfotm for this to happen. I'm not mormon, nor an ex mormon but I had contact with LDS church by missionaries. I always thought there was something suspicious about facsimile 1, because you have the canopy vases which indicates there must be a ritual of a mummification. Never got the time to see the other facsimile because, I as an "outsider" something smelled "fishy". I'm going to watch now part 3 and it's been an interesting study. One thing that made me separate Dr. Ritner from Gee was Gee is clearly bias.
The truth comes out! The real reason Abraham was attempted to be sacrificed was that he didn't understand Egyptian culture and sat on Pharaoh's throne and wore Osiris special crown... But seriously, this is an amazing podcast. I started learning ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs in Middle school and every time I would interpret the parts of the Book of Abraham, I noticed so many of the things brought up here. And even if I rounded up on the points given to Joseph Smith (the 4 sons of Horus, the association of Sobek with Pharaoh (𓉐𓉻), and even the scepter in Facsimile #3 as referring to the scepter of truth), there is still so much wrong with everything else that overcomes the presumption that this is a translation. I love learning and this was fascinating to me as it clarified some points of confusion for me as I was learning Egyptian growing up.
Kalb is heart - in Arabic. קלב in Hebrew is the loanword for 'club'. כלב which would also be readable as k(o)l(o)b in hebrew would be 'dog' (when read as 'kelev'). So I guess Kolob is Sirius the "Dog Star"? :D
32:57 This scene of a political prisoner being sacrificed is based on speculation and circumstantial evidence. I am not taking a side but instead just making an observation. Also, the Egyptians left absolutely no evidence about how they built the pyramids. Why should we expect them to leave evidence of their practice of human sacrifice? They apparently did not write about certain things very much. Some very important things.
So, who is RFM? Was this ever explained? Appears to be someone who is still a member of the church but does not want to be exposed due to being a active member of the church. Is this correct? He obviously is representing apologists but isn’t an apologist. Just wondering.
Ok. So something I'm trying to wrap my head around is the use of the name Potifar. While that was being discussed it occurred to me that Potifar in Genisis is only 4 generations removed from Abraham as Joseph of Egypt is Abraham's great grandson. So if the name Potifar linguisticly is from a much newer Egyptian time period then that would make it not only an anachronism in the book of Abraham but in Genisis as well. Is that correct? If Genisis was in fact written I think it was said 800bce ish then that would make sense. But with Joseph of Egypt being only 4 generations removed from Abraham I think it was reasonable for a bible literalist like Joseph Smith to lift the name from the bible and use it in the Book of Abraham as Potifar's hill and that wouldn't be a stretch in Smith's mind. Does that make sense? Is the use of Potifar an anachronism in Genisis and if it isn't would it be an anachronism in the book of Abraham?
It is interesting to see these items after so many years. They were first photographed on 35mm black and white film. The film was taken to the BYU photography studio, to be processed. The studio head asked me to develop the film. I used Kodak D23 developer. After drying the film, I asked if they wanted prints, but I was told 'no', prints were not needed. It was to be viewed on a 35mm projector. They were called film strips. I did not know what I had developed. When I asked, I was told that the Book of Abraham had been found and the film had the images on it. It looked like 'chicken scratchings' to me, in such a small format. The studio was on the basement floor of the BYU Wilkinson Center. I worked there during the 1966-1967 academic year. I went on the KBYU the following year..
To go to all of the trouble to create a religion JS was ambitious. The fact that the current church leaders continue his exercise in creativity, using apologists and document alterations, it really makes you wonder what the motivation was. For JS it had to be his sexual addiction. To give any other motivation to his ambition is an insult to all of the people who have fallen for his perfidy, and just intellectual terrorism at its finest. But the motivation for current church leaders is another matter altogether. Just another example corporate corruption, corporate terrorism, in the modern day. Capitalism at it's finest. The victimization of the church members, the fleecing, the monopolizing of their faith and love, is just more than criminal, it is evil.
Since 12-21 will be given in the own due time of the Lord, I wonder why the modern prophets do not reveal them to us now since they have the ability to read them since in #11 it says that if the world can find them out to let it be?
Figure 5 with the issue of the Penis and the figure with the hand and the flail. In the past it appeared to be the Masonic Square and the Compass symbols and the penis could appear as the other arm (the right arm extended) and combined with the left arm at the square could be a Masonic and Mormon temple sign. And this possible interpretation is not mentioned here. Now Dr. Ritner shows that these symbols are not anything to do with Masonry or the Mormon temple in Egyptian.
Has anyone ever addressed how Joseph Smith knew that the earth was created by “Gods” plural as is written in Chapter 4 of the Book of Abraham? It is now being said by Hebrew scholars that “Elohim” is a plural for of the word “God.” It seems that the creation story in Genesis as written in Hebrew says “The Gods created the earth” essentially. Which means Joseph Smith somehow knew what Christians are reluctant to admit. “Gods” created the earth.
Here is an excerpt from Hugh Nibley: The best-known examples of such a figure (e.g., from the tomb of Seti I and the Temple of Opet) are depicting an episode from the Sed Festival, in which the King is ritually put to death and then restored to life. An important part of the Sed Festival was the choosing of a substitute to die for the King, so that he would not have to undergo the painful process to achieve resurrection. So in pictures resembling this one we do indeed have a situation such as that described by Joseph Smith as the attempt by agents of Pharaoh to sacrifice Abraham. The Jewish traditions tell us that the attempt was actually made and failed in the manner described in the Book of Abraham.(3). Is this correct? If so, how does this affect your analysis? Since this was written in about 1980, has it been debunked? Ii love your podcast/video. This is wonderful. Thank you for your expertise and willingness to help us understand these arcane matters which have such vital impact on our religious lives. Best wishes and success to you in getting a transplant.
I don't know which figure you are referring to (facsimile 1?) but Encyclopedia Britannica has an article on the Sed Festival and ritual death/resurrection isn't mentioned at all, just tests of physical endurance and a reactment of Upper and Lower Egypt's unification. Wiki referenced a 1950 book for that theory but nothing recent. I googled images of pharaohs performing Heb-Sed and they all look like they're running with a spear or something, which matches a physical endurance trial.( www.britannica.com/topic/Heb-Sed ); found another article here ( www.ancientpages.com/2018/03/28/sed-festival-ancient-egyptian-ritual-tested-pharaohs/ ) Even if the Egyptians did do a ritual as you describe, Dr. Ritner shows the context of the images have nothing to do with any pharaoh's jubilee, just with the dead asking their gods for safekeeping in their afterlife journey. Since Joseph Smith had a Hebrew scholar, Joshua Seixas, teaching him, if there is a Jewish tradition it's extremely possible he heard it from that man. I couldn't find one in an online search, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
chandanista -yes. Facsimile 1. Thanks for your comment. Reading Nibley is next to impossible. I think he used density as a defense to truth. Obfuscation.
@@markj.williams844 I agree with that. Have you tried watching his videos? He is all over the place and half the time I don't know where he was going in his lecture. I'm not sure how my aunt and others got anything out of his classes.
chandanista Yes, they are horrible. Yet, when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s, he was revered as the most brilliant of LDS scholars. I’m sure he was intelligent and well-real; however, he played the role of chief apologist and was able to put up a formidable smoke screen for many years. Dr. Ritner has laid waste to that wall.
The only question left in my mind is whether JS knew he was writing fairy tales, or actually thought he was interpreting something. The books are clearly bogus.
I try to stay in contact with the big picture, but Joseph Smith was looking at funerary artifacts and saying they were a book about the Patriarchs. This isn't even worth arguing!
It's interesting that figures 8-21 are "too holy" too be revealed to the world at this time. It seems like they ran out of ideas. I have been through the temple, and I do not feel further enlightened. Maybe I just haven't been found worthy to have these answers given to me. I am sick and sad to learn that this whole thing has, literally, just been fabricated and made up. How many other lies are there still to be found?
![[DRAGON BALL LEGENDS REVEALS ＆ STUFF] LEGENDS FESTIVAL 2024 Special Edition Part 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/af0phKxitX8/mqdefault.jpg)
I discovered this video a year too late, and I had to check online to see if Dr. Rittner survived his kidney issue, and I’m very sad to see that he passed away. When I saw the duration of these videos, I thought I was going to be fast forwarding a lot, but he was such a captivating guest all throughout. I had never listened to the western hemisphere’s leading Egyptologist analyze the facsimiles I have known since childhood. He had such expertise and crazy rare translation abilities. His enthusiasm for the subject comes across as calm yet still so infectious. As soon as he mentioned his love for the Boris Karloff Mummy movie in the previous video, I knew I liked this guy. That Chicago was the leading city in Egyptology in America makes me even more proud of my college town.
Living in Utah my whole life as a non Mormon and not part of the culture, I used to argue these points exhaustively and how ludicrous they are. But after listening to your podcasts more and more I see it’s not to show how demonstrably false the church is, but as a tool to help those indoctrinated heal. It’s hard to see from the outside initially, but now I see how difficult it is when a whole society has been brainwashed since birth. Good luck on your mission to help those who want answers slowly work their way to some reconciliation.
equinox project that’s how I see it. I used to be a militant atheist but that just assumes people have the same logic. The book by Joseph Campbell myths to live by helped me see religious people in a different light. I hate the word victim, but epistemology of circumstance I think is accurate
Amen
As an exmormon, who lived in Utah 20yrs.. I've learned that discussing the flaws in Mormonism doesn't work..Im starting to think it's like teaching children about the birds n the bees.. you talk about it, when they're ready.
I have been mulling over the decision to leave the church for three years. I recently finalized that decision and began the process of removing my records. I did not come across this podcast until today and I am both given help and comfort from Dr. Ritner’s expert words and sad to learn of his passing just a few months ago. I had hoped to email him after listening to all of this and thank him for his time.
Regardless, thank you for bringing him on and doing this podcast. This is important.
You could still email the school or his department at the school. I am sure they would like to hear about how much influence Dr. Ritner's work still has.
I’m not Mormon, but I am interested in Mormonism + the current debate around it. This series has been very very wonderful for me because it brings up such a diverse amount of Egyptological knowledge, I’ve learned so many new and fascinating things. Rest in peace Dr Ritner - you were a true educator
This series with Dr. Ritner has been the most influential mormon stories series for me! I binge watched all 15 hours. Thank you thank you!! 👏👏
R.I.P Robert. Your work helped free me from the soul crushing effects of Mormonism. Thank you for your legacy of work
Brilliant refutation of Gee, Muhlestein and LDS apologetics. THANK YOU all for doing this to properly educate us properly on the Egyptian materials concerning the Book of Abraham. God bless you all! As a former apologist and one of the original founders of FAIR, I am very glad I no longer have to argue against the Egyptologists. The dishonesty of LDS apologetics is appalling!
As a former member who followed your channel during my "faith crisis", I was frequently astounded at the lengths you would go to defend the Mormon church. Your contortion of the truth was one of the very things that convinced me that the church was NOT true. How could the true church of Christ be based on such misrepresentations and outright lies? It is refreshing to me to see that you were able to arrive at the point where you were willing to look at the facts rather than continue to tout the Mormon apologies.
As a professional adult trainer (computer science) it is refreshing to listen to someone (Dr. Ritner, RIP) who actually knows what he is talking about. When non-experts speak they are all over the place, Dr. Ritner speaks to the point, like a razor blade. Thank you for these interviews!!!!
3:00:25 June 6, 2023...I too, binge watched Dr. Ritner podcasts on Mormon Stories. My eyes never glazed over, I sat on the edge of my seat totally enthralled. I think that anyone listening to this fabulous teacher would know he speaks true. Shame on the Mormon Church for trying to undermine or insinuate that he is less than genuine. May he Rest in Peace. The world has lost one of the greats.
I enjoyed this second broadcast with
Dr. Ritner so much.
Dr. Ritner is truly a gifted Egyptologist .
Well done !
Two thumbs way up !
Peace
we need to ship a crate of mics to Dr. Ritner so he can keep dropping them.
what he really needs is a kidney
He had several kidney donors! Praise to the man!
@@zaboomafia How do you know?
@@KTPurdy c
@@zaboomafia m
John, I disagree that people's eyes and ears are glazing over and they'll just say "well, the experts disagree" -- but then, I'm not looking only for evidence to prove the historicity of Mormonism. I think Dr. Ritner did an AMAZING job not only of "showing his work" but of doing so in a very articulate yet understandable way, and he tied everything together. I think we should give people a little more credit for being able to understand difficult concepts that are well articulated. For the people who will still believe the apologists after paying close attention to Dr. Ritner, I don't think any evidence will change their minds -- at least not yet. I found this two-part podcast to be extremely fascinating and educational. Thank you, Dr. Ritner!
After many tries slogging through Nibley, as my mother raved about his "deeper doctrine" work, and wondering if his convoluted, meandering lectures were typical of world renowned scholars (I attended community college). Dr. Ritner has been a breath of fresh air who explains symbols, theories, the related mythology and history in an incredible way so anyone can understand it.
I had the same experience listening to Nibley. Such a terrible teacher!
As I have listened carefully to these podcasts, I truly appreciate Dr. Ritner's explanations that are simple enough for a housewife to understand. It also has occurred to me that these mummies (and the papyri that accompanied them) are actually bodies of formerly living Egyptians, whose graves were robbed. It seems very disrespectul to me that these peoples' remains were so cavalierly treated and displayed. The Mormon church's founder and subsequent leaders continued this disrespectful treatment. And to take these papyri and use them to falsify supposed "scripture" is even more unbelievable. The comparison of what Joseph Smith supposedly 'translated' and the translation of a qualified and scholarly Egyptologist is eye-opening and mind-blowing. Thank you, Dr. Ritner, for taking the time and energy to contribute your expertise to these podcasts.
Great presentation!
TLDW: Joseph Smith is not an effective Egyptian translator.
BOA was a heavy load on my shelf. The finances of the church was the final straw. The church uses weak apologetics and money to create the smoke and mirrors for the illusion of the BOA “translation” to continue.
I chuckled at Dr Ritner’s joke ~2:54:00. 😁
I am sickened and appalled as to the lengths at which morman apologists will go to lie to build a faith promoting story. I can't believe I was deceived for so long by this hoax.
You would think people who believe themselves to be members of "the only true church" would be more honest. If the LDS religion was actually true, everyone would know it because the evidence would support it, and it would be all over the Americas.
These apologists have sacrificed their integrity for what? They can only be a laughingstock in their profession. The Book of Abraham is such a transparent fraud I don’t think that even the Amazing Randi, who devoted a whole chapter to the Cottingly Fairies would spend more than a page on it. In one sense, I suppose, it’s a shame that a brilliant scholar should spend so much time nailing down each and every slimy evasion and distraction used to defend this transparent flummery.I suppose that if Smith had made a reference to the Cardiff Giant, they’d hunt up some Mormon archeologist to defend it.
@@huffpappy QUOTE If the LDS religion was actually true, everyone would know it because the evidence would support it, and it would be all over the Americas. UNQUOTE Correct. IF MORmONISM was really 1 percent as great as the MORmONS claim then everyone would want to join. IF Joseph Smith had produced the untranslated golden tablets as indication of his being divinely guided instead of his Book of MORmON translation text then Smith would have been much more impressive. IF Smith had not indulged in "polygamy"/ adultery then the MORmON church would be much larger. It would still be a scam, but it would have been able to gather many more converts and be much bigger.
@@brianholly3555 I don't think it's a shame that Dr Ritner has spent so much time on the Book of Abraham and its facsimiles as he as helped people see the truth of it.
Dr. Ritner is a true scholar. As he said, the conclusion has to make sense in the whole context. Some scholars though have not learned to deal with their own biases and, therefore, they only use the “evidence” that would seem to agree with what they want the result to be. This is what the Mormon apologists are essentially doing. Because any result that contradicts Joseph Smith’s translations have serious consequences for their own belief in Joseph Smith as a “prophet,” their research will tend to produce conclusions that agree with their preconception. Therefore, their own biases and egos will not allow them (the apologists) to remain objective. They can’t or their religion is false. As researchers, we will encounter evidence that goes against our belief in our research. In these cases, we can’t doctor the evidence to match our desired result. We have to conclude what we have evidence for, not what we want it to be because our belief is at stake.
It's very hard to get people to admit the truth when their paychecks depend on the opposite.
Reasonably intelligent people CAN understand!! Thank you so much for explaining all of this in a respectful way. I’ve very much enjoyed both the 1st and 2nd videos!
God bless Dr. Robert Rittner. May he receive total and complete healing. He is a brilliant man indeed. Blessings!.
Thank you to everyone involved in this video. I have been trying to understand what is really going on with the Book of Abraham. The LDS church has been very misleading in their explanation of how it was written. This video has been so very helpful. Thank you again for spreading truth.
This podcast was so good! Thanks Dr Ritner, Jon, and RFM for doing this. As kid I remember my dad and I looking at these facsimiles and being amazed that we (church members) had the answers nobody else had! Thank you Dr Ritner for setting this mystery of the unknown segments straight for me! You’re the man!
I've enjoyed studying Greek and Egyptian mythology for the last several years. This was excellent and everything Dr. Ritner taught aligns very nicely with things I've learned. What a treasure!
I love Dr. Rittner. I love his subtle, intelligent humor. Thank you for this! Spent 8 hours straight listening to this and loved every minute.
The apologist rebuttal is hanging by the most erroneous thread. Please, take a note from F.A.R.M.S and give up already.
Dr.Ritner is such an intelligent ,engaging,eye opening, no bs ray of light so refreshing to hear him speak .Thank you for sharing these discussion & the Dr. for his time I've learned so much .
I am appalled how any present day morman could believe in book of Abraham. The mormon apologists even those from BYU have no shame in ignoring proper scholarship concerning Joseph Smith's lying and chicanery.
The word "Kolob" comes from the 1825 travel book "Modern Traveller: Arabia" Duncan pg 145.
"but the Ikonomos, whom the Arabs call the kolob, is the true head of the community and manages all of it's affairs."
The Josiah Conder map of Arabia that was published in this book is also notable for the source of the word "Nahom" and "Irreantum" leading many to believe Joseph Smith had access to this book and map. Finding the word "kolob" in the same book strengthens that theory.
I’m enjoying this way too much!
I love the pragmatism of the Egyptians. There's no ghost to torment our effigy, guess we'll have to make one. There's an element of logic and practicality to their practice of religion that seems refreshing in comparison to the mainstream religions today.
Joseph Smith got so cocky that he was willing to risk being found out just to keep looking like a prophet. Honestly nothing else needs to be addressed. This is the number one biggest problem in my opinion. Once you realize this issue, the whole Pearl of Great Price breaks apart. Goodbye racist teachings. Goodbye Kolob. I won't be "highing" there in a twinkling of an eye.
Exactly what I thought. Once you know JS couldn’t translate the papyrus (and it’s provable), the whole church’s claim falls apart. All it took for me to resign was this piece of knowledge.
Two Mormon missionaries came to me and said after I ask them something about the Book of Mormon.
They said “ listen , if Jose smith is a false prophet, this book is not true , then the church not true “ then he continued “ but I know this is true and you can pray about it , and you will receive the answer that it’s true”…
I said , but I received the answer that is not true because I can read and I also found out that many things the book says are completely false.
By the time I said that to them I wasn’t even getting my hands into the book of Abraham 🙄 ..
Sooo frustrating!
Young missionaries are very misled ! I remember how every time the children will give their testimony ( not about Jesus ) in front of everyone in the chapel , their parents will whisper to their ears “ I believe that Joseph smith is a true prophet of god , and I believe this church is the only true church … every Sunday I will hear and see this!
Wonderful. So informative and important interview! Thank you! These interviews with Dr. Ritner should be obligatory for every seminary and institute teacher.
The LDS church learned long ago, you simply have to give a reason to believe not a fact for belief.
Best quote from this podcast, "if the story is true then all parts of it must be." 40:35
The best quote was 2:14:22 when RFM says "So it sounds to me like you're saying John Gee doesn't know Shenaha from Shinola."
I am continually amazed how loosley the word translation is used in Mormondom. I am of the highly supported opinion the words "complete fabrication' are far more appropriate. There simply was never a shred of translation performed anywhere on anything.
“If the story is true, then all parts must be true” YES!
"If the story is false, then all parts must be false" YES!
This is all so informative, interesting and amazing. I discovered the lies a yr ago and it sent me tumbling. Now, on this side of things, I think, “why don’t we just live life while we’re here instead of all this chaotic nothing, empty nonsense.” Religion (all) wastes our “turn on earth.”
Thank you Dr. Ritner
Much gratitude to you Dr. Ritner for your efforts to get the truth out to people who need it badly. Be safe and well Dr. Ritner. Truth to Power is always difficult but it repays a thousand times over one's efforts.
Dr. Ritner came alive. Let’s get him that kidney to keep him alive.
Much love and appreciation to Dr. Ritner for doing these videos. I can't wait for the next one.
I'm not Mormon and have no vested interest in the Book of Abraham, but this series has been a really interesting study of ancient Egyptian religious belief.
Wasn't sure about this Podcast as I've never been a Mormon - BUT it's fascinating , crucial and a game changer I'd say. Love Ancient Eygptian history. Brilliant!
I'm so glad that the mummy peddler came to town. I mean, he basically inadvertently provided JSjr with the perfect opportunity to expose himself as the liar he was. And thanks to Jsjr's enormous ego at that time, he walked right into a trap that would probably become the biggest smoking gun of his fraudulent career.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. It’s so refreshing to hear from an actual unbiased expert about the book of Abraham.
Many years ago, I've read in an encyclopedia that Medieval Europeans practiced a ritual of killing a human at a new cemetery. The purpose was to make a ghost that would protect the cemetery either from thieves or from other ghosts.
I can’t help but feel terribly sad watching this after Robert’s passing. What an amazing human.
This is fascinating. Thank you Dr. Ritner for taking the time to set the record straight. I watched you in another video by FlackerMan on the Book of Abraham
( ruclips.net/video/_KLa8HYsfpM/видео.html ) , and I was impressed with your knowledge. I sincerely hope you can be cured of your kidney disease.
I don't remember where I read it but some contemporary commentator who was not Egyptian wrote of what a happy and wonderful place ancient Egypt was. I'll have to try to find that again. It would be so incredible to be able to go back to that time and see Egypt in its glory.
On LDS apologists:
It is because of people like them that peer review in academia is so important. If these bozos were actually speaking/publishing the truth, then the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon would be accepted by academics, and the archaeological evidence would be there to back them up. What's in both books would be taught as history. What really happens is they find one little thing that they relate in a convoluted or out right false way to the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham and then say that one little thing proves they are true. Turning tapirs into horses or saying flint knives are the same as steely knives is just so intellectually dishonest! These guys should have their PhD's pulled. I guess some people jusr can't handle the truth.
Almost four years ago I decided to set my beliefs aside, and follow the evidence. I figured the BoM was the place to start, and came to RUclips. The first thing I found was Flackerman's video on the BoA. My "testimony" was gone. How any rational, thinking person, who cares about what is true, could believe these things astounds me. My wife is TBM to the max, and her feelings mean more to her than truth. And I personally think that's what it boils down to for most Mormons. When your entire life, identity, family, social relationships, everything, is based on a story, that story HAS to be true. No questions. No doubt. They sacrifice all they have for that story, even their morality, and anyone who walks away has been deceived. Lied to by the devil. It's a cult, and it's harmful. I'm so thankful for Mormon Stories, Flackerman, Jeremy Runnels, the Tanners, Matt Dillahunty, Brian Dalton, Mike Norton, it's a huge list. I was so ready to hate these people. I was wrong.
@@RB-zh1eq
It must be hard on your relationship with your wife. I have a good friend who is in the same boat as you, and it definitely has cause major strains for them.
I left the church about 15 years ago, and it was no big deal since I was the only Mormon in my family. At the time, the website I found was exmormon.org. Reading the personal stories on that website helped me to finally leave the church. When the entire house of cards is built on Joseph Smith, and you find out what a conman and fraud he was, well, the hole thing quickly falls apart. I ended up as a total non-believer. The same rational thought process that led me out of the LDS church sank any belief in any god. There is simply no credible evidence for any being who we humans would call a god. There may be a creator of some sort, but I'm sure that being would have far more important things to do than piddle in the lives of humans. I wish the internet had been around back in 1978 when I joined the church because with the information available today, I would have never taken the plunge (pun intended). I thank all the same people you listed and know that it would be impossible to thank them all, but I want to include special thanks to Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, and Sam Harris. I have learned so much from them that I will be forever in their debt.
Dr.Ritner thank you for giving your time and your humor to this podcast group of students! I look forward to reading your books on Egyptian religion and seeing the beautifully drawn images you reference. Wishing you better health and a kidney match.
good to be back with you folks today; looking forward to episode (2)
Money makes people say the Damnedest things....
There are times I wish for emoticons here and this is one of those....chuckling hard at this one in the most agreeing way....LOL
"When money talks, values walk"..
I absolutely love and appreciate the information and in-depth explanation of his knowledge. I am sad this discussion seems to be so underated. I have no knowledge in egyptology and because of that was taken advantage of by the LDS church (along with many others). I was a convert and asked questions that were appeased by apologist explanations, I am saddened I did not come across something like this while I was an investigator. I have been out of the church for about 13 years, I was a member for only 5 years (endowed and sealed in the temple) and am still healing from trauma caused by being so devoted to the faith. Thank you Dr. Ritner for dissecting this information with such clarity and thank you Mormon Stories for your content.
I would love to interview you Courtney!!!
@@mormonstories I would be very interested in sharing my story as listening to others has helped me ... I will send you an email
2:24:39 Summary and super important points by John, Dr. Ritner and RFM. Maybe should be made at the outset of each discussion.
Thank you Dr. Ritner, John and RFM, this is amazing.
You guys freaking rule. Wish I had some of this info back in 2002 when the missionaries knocked on my door. Keep up the good work!
SUMMARY
14. The book of Abraham revolved around a story of religious human sacrifice to Pharaoh's gods. This was not a tradition of the Egyptians. John Gee claims that Dr. Ritner admits there is human sacrifice in his dissertation. Dr. Ritner refutes this by saying that there was rare instances of killing humans involved with Egyptian ritual, but it was nothing like what is described in the book of Abraham. The key Egyptian ritual in point involves placing a voodoo doll of your enemies near a graveyard so that the angry ghosts of the graveyard can vicariously torture the enemy represented by the voodoo doll. In rare circumstances a graveyard was unavailable so they would execute criminals to create a graveyard so the ritual may be performed. The human was not ritually sacrificed to worship a god, but rather killed to enable a curse ritual.
15. Egyptian culture was actually opposite of that which is described in the book of Abraham. Instead of performing human sacrifice on those who didn't worship their gods, they didn't care which gods you worshipped. They were in the business of adding gods to their list of gods to worship not punishing people who have a different god not within their current list. Egyptians eventually added Abraham's god "Yahweh" (named "Yao" in Egyptian) to their list of gods. There was only one Egyptian king that embraced monotheism of the sun-disk god, and he was the only king who punished those who didn't worship his god, but that was only in 1300 BCE (Around the time of Moses, not Abraham).
16. Facsimile 2 is claimed to be paired with facsimile 1 in representing the story of Abraham, yet facsimile 2 actually comes from a separate mummy than the mummy in facsimile 1. Additionally, facsimile 2 is a circle, and only comes in circle form (hypocephalus) because it is used as a pillow for the head of a mummy. There is no way that it was included on a roll with facsimile 1, which is in scroll form.
17. The LDS church made it very hard for Dr. Ritner to get access to the original Egyptian documents for analysis.
18. Joseph Smith has access to a scroll for a 3rd mummy. He uses information from a 3rd mummy to fill in the blanks on the damaged portion of the circle shown in facsimile 2.
19. The outer rim of the circle contains text relating to the genesis of creation in Egyptian mythology. The text in the outer rim is standard text that is very common on these circle forms. Part of the text is missing from the outer rim. Instead of filling it in with the proper pattern of text that is known to be common there, text from facsimile 1 papyrus was injected into the blanks incorrectly.
20. The three different documents come from three different mummies with different time periods of Egyptian language evolution. By mixing and matching between them to fill in the blanks of each other, Joseph fraudulently included older Egyptian language with a newer Egyptian language document and vice versa.
21. The center of facsimile 2 was blank in the original documents and then filled in inaccurately by Joseph Smith. Normally a four headed god would be attached to the central mound or the three mounds, the central mound functioning as the neck of the god. Joseph Smith obviously wasn't aware that the mound functioned as the god's neck, so he copy and pasted the two headed god at the top of the circle and placed the two headed god next to the mound, but unattached.
22. Since these circles functioned as pillows to bless mummies, the imagery was fairly standard so they could be mass produced and the name of the mummy could be added. Therefore we should expect Joseph Smiths corrections to match the traditional pattern, which it doesn't do very well.
23. Chapter 3 of the book of Abraham is based on facsimile 2. Apologists are trying to claim that the book of Abraham was a revelation inspired by receiving the papyrus but not necessarily directly related to it, yet the book of Abraham specifically claims that "TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS, BY JOSEPH SMITH" and "A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."
24. Kolob is not an Egyptian word, it seems to be related to a Hebrew construction of the word for "center", perhaps intentionally summoned by Joseph after his studies of Hebrew.
25. The Egyptian pictographs contain nothing pertaining to 1000 years, or the location of God's throne.
26. Jah-oh-eh, Oliblish, Raukeeyang, Enish-go-on-dosh, and ____ are not Egyptian words
27. In figure 2 of facsimile 2, JS references Abraham via a Egyptian symbol representing an alter of lotus flowers and wine jars, yet this is merely JS copying over incorrect interpretation of from facsimile 1 into the blank spots of facsimile 2.
28. Figure 3 of facsimile 2 is loosely correct in identifying the "sun" shaped object above the god's head as symbolic of a crown of eternal light, power, and authority. Yet we know that this was a mere coincidence since everything in figure 3 was just copy and pasted from another document into a blank spot of the hypocephalus. There is also an interesting coincidence, in that the eye of Horus was also copied over, the eye being emblematic of health, which is a secret blessing in the Tempe.
29. Figure 4 does not mean 1000 in Egyptian as claimed by JS.
30. Figure 5 does not have anything to do with planets, but it does symbolize the sky that carries the sun.
31. Figure 6 does not represent earth's four quarters, it represents mummy organ containers that represent the four sons of Horus. The four sons of Horus have nothing to do with the four cardinal directions. If you wanted to personify the four corners of the earth or the four cardinal directions with a deity, you would add a snake symbol to the Egyptian word for North/South/East/West, you would not use the four sons of Horus. There is a loose connection in that anything connected to the number four can loosely be connected to the four cardinal directions. Apologists have found an Egyptian text that they cite as backing the claim that the four sons of Horus represent the four cardinal directions - but if you analyze the Egyptian text, the four sons of Horus are being sent to the four cardinal directions for business with the gods located at the four cardinal directions. The sons of Horus don't represent the cardinal directions even in this text, the other gods already located at the four cardinal directions would have a better chance of representing those locations.
32. Apologists make an argument that the four sons of Horus represent the four gods namely Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, and Korash, which are worshiped by the people residing in the locations of four different cardinal directions and try to place Elkenah as a god in Syria. But based on the apologist's prior text connecting the four cardinal directions with the four sons of Horus, the falcon God supposedly representing Elkenah would necessarily represent the people to the west of Egypt since the falcon son of Horus was sent to the west. Therefore you cannot connect a Syrian god to the Abrahamic Elkenah (Syria is not to the west), you must connect a Libyan god to Elkenah.
33. Apologists claim Shinehah is an Egyptian word, but while sounding Egyptian, in a global search of all Egyptian words, this combination of sounds never get put together.
34. Nothing in the text implies that the four sons of Horus are meant to be representing the four cardinal directions, the normal interpretation would be that they are the four spirits guiding and helping the mummy perform the resurrection.
35. In figure 7, Joseph Smith confuses the holy spirit in the form of a dove with the symbol for a lizard. The other details are loosely accurate. Next to god are symbols that look like the square and the compass in masonic symbology, but that is merely God's arm is raised to the square with a flail on top of his hand. There is an appendage that looks like a second arm extended (for Mormon ritual purposes), but that is supposed to represent an erect penis for how God creates everything with masturbation. This appendage has been removed and re-added over the course of scriptural edit history.
36. Figures 8 through 11 included areas that were blank in the original document. Egyptian text was inserted into the black spots, yet interpreted by JS in a way that is upside-down, were 11 should be read first instead of fourth. The name of the mummy was supposed to be written in the top right edge of the hypocephalus, but that piece was broken off, yet maintained by JS as a fragment. JS used the fragment to inject it into the blank spot for Figure 8, therefore we can know name of the mummy (Shehshauk) despite the name not being placed in the right spot on the hypocephalus. But since JS had documents from four mummies, we cannot be sure if the name Shehshauk was the name for this hypocephalus in particular.
37. Figure 11 is closer in meaning to that which JS ascribed to figure 8, in that it is discussing God. Figure 11 does not contain secret numbers as claimed by JS.
38. JS says that figures 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 will be given in the own due time of the Lord. JS tried to translate all of the things that were pictorial, yet dodged explanation for the parts of the hypocephalus that was actually text.
39. Two baboons are just praising god.
SUMMARY
Facsimile 3 displays five characters in Egyptian mythology. A female Isis on the far left standing behind Osiris who is seated (often shown next to a display of flowers on an alter). The goddess of truth is holding the hand of a dead man who is being brought before Osiris on his path to paradise. Both the goddess of truth and the dead man have ostrich feathers on their heads. The dead man has been prepared by the Anubis, the god of ointments for mummies, who is shown on the far right. This is the rite of passage for the dead man to be granted access to paradise by Osiris.
40. JS claims that the man (1) sitting is Abraham on Pharaoh's throne, while not Abraham, it is a throne. The hat is specific to Osiris - no living man can wear that hat.
41. JS claims that the person (2) behind Abraham/Osiris is the Pharaoh giving his throne to Abraham. JS further confuses the word Pharaoh as a name rather than a title and claims that name Pharaoh is written above his head. JS misgendered this individual in that she is actually Isis, a goddess, with notable feminine features like long hair and a dress. The text above her head does not say "Pharaoh" but rather "Isis the great, the god's mother" (reading from top to bottom the text above her head). Pharaoh is one of the most common words in Egyptian - most beginning students of Egyptian can recognize the symbols for Pharaoh. JS is failing to translate at even a beginners level.
42. The catalyst theory of Abrahamic translation theory is completely wrong, as JS admits here that he is translating specific text, not merely using this document to inspire an unrelated revelation.
43. For the third time, JS incorrectly identifies an alter with lotus flowers as representing Abraham in Egypt.
44. JS incorrectly identifies the goddess of truth as the prince of Pharaoh, again misgendering a character. The sun symbol above the head symbolizes that the individual is divine. JS claimed that his name is written above his hand - a name was written in that location, but it doesn't say "Prince of Pharaoh" but rather "Mahawt, the goddess of the west".
45. JS claims that the dead individual approaching Osiris is Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters. JS claims that his name is written above his hand, yet instead of saying "Shulem" it says "The Osiris Hor, the justified forever", Hor being the owner of the tomb, owner of this text, the central figure in the story approaching ressurection.
46. The bottom rim of facsimile 3 states the following - "Oh gods of the necropolis, gods of the caverns, gods of the south, north, west, and east, grant salvation to the Osiris Hor, the justified, born by Taikabet, his mother's name." Interesting that the text mentions the four cardinal directions, yet the image doesn't contain the four sons of Horus that JS and apologists insist represent the cardinal directions.
47. The central theme here is that the dead man can join the gods becoming a god himself, not Abraham taking the seat of Pharaoh and reasoning upon the principles of Astronomy, in the king’s court.
48. Apologists claim that it is okay to have Isis represent Pharaoh because in Roman parades (centuries later), some Romans dressed up like a woman to cosplay Isis, but there is absolutely no logical justification for this conclusion as what the Romans do has no connection to what the Egyptians do.
49. JS claimed that the black looking individual is Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince - getting tricked by the color of the character. The text above doesn't confirm that but rather says "Words spoken by Anubis who makes protection, lord of heaven, foremost of the westerners." For decades, one portion of this text was too hard to read for Egyptologists, so apologists played the "Joseph Smith's translation is within the gaps" game, yet now the whole thing is translatable so there is no excuse for an incorrect translation.
50. The original document for facsimile 3 doesn't exist, so it is harder for us to know what JS filled in. It is possible that JS converted Anubis's dog head to a human head because of damage to the original. Anubis's dog ear was preserved, despite being converted to a human incorrectly.
Simply amazing that Dr. Ritner was will to share his expertise on the Horus papyrus.
This video series is a wonderful presentation with extremely valuable information.
Now it is up to LDS members to assess the facts provided and make an honest assessment of Joseph Smith’s ministry.
So interesting! Thank you so much, Dr. Ritner, RFM, and John Dehlin. Looking forward to the next episode.
Yes, I'm glad people have let you know that this scholarship is life-changing for people in or after a faith crisis!
I remember as young missionary discovering that the depictions in #7 seemed to match the signs and symbols taught in the temple. My mind was blown haha
This series makes me wanna become an egyptologist
You know you are getting to the church when you log on to this podcast and are met with a Mormon advert. Church News, Nelson explaining that only true salvation is through the Temple.
One need only read Smith's statement 'Pharaoh, the king of Egypt' ( BOA chapter 1, vs, 8 ) to realize Smith had no understanding that the word 'Pharaoh' is not a personal name.
Dr Ritner refers to his publication "The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice" , Human Sacrifice, 2:17:15--ff, foot-note 750 on page 162, in connection with the canopic jar gods possibly representing the cardinal directions. The reference may be downloaded from the Oriental Institute of The University of Chicago, 4th Printing 2008, (SAOC 54) at the URL link following:
oi.uchicago.edu/research/publications/saoc/saoc-54-mechanics-ancient-egyptian-magical-practice-fourth-printing-2008
Thank you, Dr Robert K Ritner; a really fabulous read.
Thank you Dr. Ritner for you passion, knowledge, research, and insight into Egyptology, along with the BoA! Just to clarify - are there any other Egyptologists outside of Mormon circles (Gee and Muhlstein) who take the BoA seriously?
Charles Mendeley 100% he did not take it seriously, in terms of it being a valid translation. It’s literally a handful of Mormon Egyptologists vs the rest of academic community in the world. I’m trying to show someone how ridiculous the church’s claims are by highlighting the fact that, outside of Mormon circles, no experts take the BoA seriously.
My thanks for all this work, for Dr. Ritner for taking time to actually analyse the fscsimile, with nothing to gain but giving the viewers a good lesson about Egypt and clarification regarding the "translation" made by Joseph Smith. Thank you to John and RFM for giving a platfotm for this to happen.
I'm not mormon, nor an ex mormon but I had contact with LDS church by missionaries. I always thought there was something suspicious about facsimile 1, because you have the canopy vases which indicates there must be a ritual of a mummification.
Never got the time to see the other facsimile because, I as an "outsider" something smelled "fishy".
I'm going to watch now part 3 and it's been an interesting study.
One thing that made me separate Dr. Ritner from Gee was Gee is clearly bias.
The truth comes out! The real reason Abraham was attempted to be sacrificed was that he didn't understand Egyptian culture and sat on Pharaoh's throne and wore Osiris special crown... But seriously, this is an amazing podcast. I started learning ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs in Middle school and every time I would interpret the parts of the Book of Abraham, I noticed so many of the things brought up here. And even if I rounded up on the points given to Joseph Smith (the 4 sons of Horus, the association of Sobek with Pharaoh (𓉐𓉻), and even the scepter in Facsimile #3 as referring to the scepter of truth), there is still so much wrong with everything else that overcomes the presumption that this is a translation. I love learning and this was fascinating to me as it clarified some points of confusion for me as I was learning Egyptian growing up.
Kalb is heart - in Arabic. קלב in Hebrew is the loanword for 'club'. כלב which would also be readable as k(o)l(o)b in hebrew would be 'dog' (when read as 'kelev'). So I guess Kolob is Sirius the "Dog Star"? :D
Thank you! This was amazing 😍
Bigger picture, why would some rando's funeral document from Egypt inform and entire Christian-derivative religion in the 19th century?
Very interesting. Love the deep dive.
32:57 This scene of a political prisoner being sacrificed is based on speculation and circumstantial evidence. I am not taking a side but instead just making an observation.
Also, the Egyptians left absolutely no evidence about how they built the pyramids. Why should we expect them to leave evidence of their practice of human sacrifice? They apparently did not write about certain things very much. Some very important things.
It'll be a good day when Joseph Smith is completely forgotten.
in pursuit of a kidney for Dr Ritner, can you tell us his blood type?
Email him here Carla! r-ritner@uchicago.edu
And thank you!!
2:14:22 omg Radio Free Mormon is absolutely hilarious.
Honestly John, I cant help but laugh during Facsimile 3, yours is contagious😂.
Thank you Dr. Ritter!
So, who is RFM? Was this ever explained? Appears to be someone who is still a member of the church but does not want to be exposed due to being a active member of the church. Is this correct? He obviously is representing apologists but isn’t an apologist. Just wondering.
ruclips.net/video/ZSipPlXXN7k/видео.html
Mark H. Harris Thank you!
Ok. So something I'm trying to wrap my head around is the use of the name Potifar. While that was being discussed it occurred to me that Potifar in Genisis is only 4 generations removed from Abraham as Joseph of Egypt is Abraham's great grandson. So if the name Potifar linguisticly is from a much newer Egyptian time period then that would make it not only an anachronism in the book of Abraham but in Genisis as well. Is that correct? If Genisis was in fact written I think it was said 800bce ish then that would make sense. But with Joseph of Egypt being only 4 generations removed from Abraham I think it was reasonable for a bible literalist like Joseph Smith to lift the name from the bible and use it in the Book of Abraham as Potifar's hill and that wouldn't be a stretch in Smith's mind. Does that make sense? Is the use of Potifar an anachronism in Genisis and if it isn't would it be an anachronism in the book of Abraham?
RFM needs a different photo to replace his face....the current one reminds me too much of what was being drawn on papyrus by Mr. Smith lol
It is interesting to see these items after so many years. They were first photographed on 35mm black and white film. The film was taken to the BYU photography studio, to be processed. The studio head asked me to develop the film. I used Kodak D23 developer. After drying the film, I asked if they wanted prints, but I was told 'no', prints were not needed. It was to be viewed on a 35mm projector. They were called film strips. I did not know what I had developed. When I asked, I was told that the Book of Abraham had been found and the film had the images on it. It looked like 'chicken scratchings' to me, in such a small format. The studio was on the basement floor of the BYU Wilkinson Center. I worked there during the 1966-1967 academic year. I went on the KBYU the following year..
This is awesome information!
To go to all of the trouble to create a religion JS was ambitious. The fact that the current church leaders continue his exercise in creativity, using apologists and document alterations, it really makes you wonder what the motivation was. For JS it had to be his sexual addiction. To give any other motivation to his ambition is an insult to all of the people who have fallen for his perfidy, and just intellectual terrorism at its finest. But the motivation for current church leaders is another matter altogether. Just another example corporate corruption, corporate terrorism, in the modern day. Capitalism at it's finest. The victimization of the church members, the fleecing, the monopolizing of their faith and love, is just more than criminal, it is evil.
Since 12-21 will be given in the own due time of the Lord, I wonder why the modern prophets do not reveal them to us now since they have the ability to read them since in #11 it says that if the world can find them out to let it be?
He meant Ishmael... Not Isaac... (from the muslim viewpoint).
Another 4 hrs of mic's being dropped.
Figure 5 with the issue of the Penis and the figure with the hand and the flail. In the past it appeared to be the Masonic Square and the Compass symbols and the penis could appear as the other arm (the right arm extended) and combined with the left arm at the square could be a Masonic and Mormon temple sign. And this possible interpretation is not mentioned here. Now Dr. Ritner shows that these symbols are not anything to do with Masonry or the Mormon temple in Egyptian.
Hello from Australia and if i were in America i would give Dr Ritner my kidney
Has anyone ever addressed how Joseph Smith knew that the earth was created by “Gods” plural as is written in Chapter 4 of the Book of Abraham? It is now being said by Hebrew scholars that “Elohim” is a plural for of the word “God.”
It seems that the creation story in Genesis as written in Hebrew says “The Gods created the earth” essentially. Which means Joseph Smith somehow knew what Christians are reluctant to admit. “Gods” created the earth.
Bloody hell. That poor guy that thinks Joseph is a prophet. After all that has been proven that he was indeed NOT ONE.
Doesn't that "flail" look like the compass and square on the garments?
Love this.......Roll Tide
This is fantastic! 👍🏾❤️👍🏽❤️
Thank you!
Mormans now have a Facebook site. Many non mormons are posting so anyone who reads this post will have another view.
Here is an excerpt from Hugh Nibley: The best-known examples of such a figure (e.g., from the tomb of Seti I and the Temple of Opet) are depicting an episode from the Sed Festival, in which the King is ritually put to death and then restored to life. An important part of the Sed Festival was the choosing of a substitute to die for the King, so that he would not have to undergo the painful process to achieve resurrection. So in pictures resembling this one we do indeed have a situation such as that described by Joseph Smith as the attempt by agents of Pharaoh to sacrifice Abraham. The Jewish traditions tell us that the attempt was actually made and failed in the manner described in the Book of Abraham.(3).
Is this correct? If so, how does this affect your analysis? Since this was written in about 1980, has it been debunked?
Ii love your podcast/video. This is wonderful. Thank you for your expertise and willingness to help us understand these arcane matters which have such vital impact on our religious lives. Best wishes and success to you in getting a transplant.
I don't know which figure you are referring to (facsimile 1?) but Encyclopedia Britannica has an article on the Sed Festival and ritual death/resurrection isn't mentioned at all, just tests of physical endurance and a reactment of Upper and Lower Egypt's unification. Wiki referenced a 1950 book for that theory but nothing recent. I googled images of pharaohs performing Heb-Sed and they all look like they're running with a spear or something, which matches a physical endurance trial.( www.britannica.com/topic/Heb-Sed ); found another article here ( www.ancientpages.com/2018/03/28/sed-festival-ancient-egyptian-ritual-tested-pharaohs/ ) Even if the Egyptians did do a ritual as you describe, Dr. Ritner shows the context of the images have nothing to do with any pharaoh's jubilee, just with the dead asking their gods for safekeeping in their afterlife journey. Since Joseph Smith had a Hebrew scholar, Joshua Seixas, teaching him, if there is a Jewish tradition it's extremely possible he heard it from that man. I couldn't find one in an online search, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
chandanista -yes. Facsimile 1. Thanks for your comment. Reading Nibley is next to impossible. I think he used density as a defense to truth. Obfuscation.
@@markj.williams844 I agree with that. Have you tried watching his videos? He is all over the place and half the time I don't know where he was going in his lecture. I'm not sure how my aunt and others got anything out of his classes.
chandanista Yes, they are horrible. Yet, when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s, he was revered as the most brilliant of LDS scholars. I’m sure he was intelligent and well-real; however, he played the role of chief apologist and was able to put up a formidable smoke screen for many years. Dr. Ritner has laid waste to that wall.
It is I, Mister Laman Lemuel the murmurer and I super duper approve of this message.
Min.2:30, the instructions from Oaks and the execution of the apologists is to create fatigue.
The only question left in my mind is whether JS knew he was writing fairy tales, or actually thought he was interpreting something. The books are clearly bogus.
For those of you interested in more from RFM, please check out the mormon stories link below:
ruclips.net/video/ZSipPlXXN7k/видео.html
I try to stay in contact with the big picture, but Joseph Smith was looking at funerary artifacts and saying they were a book about the Patriarchs. This isn't even worth arguing!
It's interesting that figures 8-21 are "too holy" too be revealed to the world at this time. It seems like they ran out of ideas. I have been through the temple, and I do not feel further enlightened. Maybe I just haven't been found worthy to have these answers given to me. I am sick and sad to learn that this whole thing has, literally, just been fabricated and made up. How many other lies are there still to be found?