WWII German Mk-108 30mm Auto-Cannon Combat Effectiveness Against US Bombers and Fighters
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- Опубликовано: 24 окт 2022
- The intent of this video is to review the impact the of the Germans adopting the mk-108 30mm autocannons as the preferred WWII bomber interceptor armament. As WWII progressed the Germans continually up sized their bomber interceptor armament to combat the US (B-17 and B-24) and British heavy bombers. Combat data showed it only took 3 to 5 Mk-108 30mm autocannon rounds to destroy a US bomber, if they could get close enough for the cannons to be effective.
The companion 20mm Video is here:
• The devastating effect... 
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You're providing WW2 history technical nerds with a product no one else seems to be doing. Great work!
The only other person i can think of who goes as in-depth would be Greg's airplanes and automobiles tbh
The channel 'UK Aircraft Explored' does videos similar to this channel, but on U.K. wartime airplanes.
Lol was gonna say exactly like the other response: then you must not know Greg airplanes's channel. Best nerdy WW2 plane channel. Awesome content!
as a young man I Had the HONOR to Know the Men that did this! I was, and am Interested! some of these men Only told me, most did? Why? "I Knew!" what, were, when, and why, with how much! I suspect EVERY word was 100% TRUTH! and censored/diluted a bit for my young ears and mind.
I'd also suggest "Greg's airplanes and automobiles" and "UK Aircraft Explored".
There are some others, like search for a series including "A4 / V2 Rocket in detail: Turbopump"
Excellent video 👌🏻👍🏻
The chart with the incredibly low numbers of planes damaged by 30mm projectiles is a textbook example of survivors bias - what these low numbers actually mean is that it was next to impossible to return home if you'd been hit by one of these bullets...
Indeed, his last sentence while showing the chart, stating that one should consider the fact that the report was based on returning planes, not only is underlined by your comment, but also must add, made my engineering-mode brain briefly move away from the technical presentation, by feeling some quite relevant shivers in the spinal area. Cheers.
@@Leeeeegion At that altitude a hit would have obviously been fatal. I must admit that I don't know what the most common altitude for a bomber interception in WWII was - I guess that would depend on where the bombers were intercepted: En route or on their final approach...
But the tests shown in the video where conducted at ground level and even there it's hard to believe that *anyone* could survive a hit unless their guardian angel did *serious* overtime 😉
@@Leeeeegion I believe m'friend that in WWII there was no pressurization for B-17's, due to the open sides for the belt gunners, the accessible bomb bay, etc.
I do know about certain fighters being pressurized, but nothing regarding Brit bombers, or the B-24. Cheers!
@@Leeeeegion most WWII bombers were not pressurized (B-17, B-24, Lancaster, etc.), B-29 was the first one fully pressurized
@@hansvonmannschaft9062 Much appreciated - THX 🤗👍🏻
Edit: Already knew that one: The Operations Room is hands down one of the best channels in this genre- if not *the* best!
If you haven't already seen it make sure to watch their recent series about Iwo Jima and look out for the one about the Battle of the Bulge starting this weekend 👌🏻
Superb well-organized video that illustrates how lethal the Mk-108 really was. I was really impressed with the British testing against different types of aircraft. Its amazing what one single round could do.
Ami loves 50cal Mg from Ww 1.
That would be handy in car to clear caravan pullers slowing in front.
Yes, I wonder how well a Wellington would have stood up to a fuselage hit with it's complex but rigid geodesic framing.
-The MK 108 round was certainly deadly but the low muzzle velocity made it necessary to get quite close to the Bomber, which of course was dangerous. The wake turbulence of a US bomber formation was very high and could make it very difficult to snipe from longer ranges using longer range weapons so this was not as disadvantageous as first thought given the reality.
-I used to talk to the curator of a US aviation museum of rec.aviation.military called Gordon. He interviewed a number of German pilots on tape and said that one of the Me 262 aces claimed he knocked out tanks by aiming the MK108 on the rear deck of tanks. The detonation of the rounds in the exterior of the cooling intakes always destroyed the engine.
Ive always wanted Ian from forgotten weapons to do a video on those German 30mm cannons
Explain.
Would be difficult to do, but cool to see yeah.
I wouldn't be surprised if he said he's not qualified for these larger/aircraft weapon. But maybe it's not really a stretch other than it's either expensive or heavy and can't be disassembled for us.
@@tarektechmarine8209 he's had videos where owners of items would show it off and explain it rather than himself, acting more like an interviewer
that could be one way for it to be done
Ian must visit germany here by Rheinmetall are many nice weapons. This short 30mm cannon is good for home defense. When i work by Rheinmetall i have seen the holes in steel frame from crane. It was from .50 caliber.
My grandfather used the Mk.108 in his 109 K4,shooting, the whole little 109 was skaking, but the excellent ammo did the job. He said, what you hit went down,no matter how supposed to be sturdy. His best was 4 P47 in March 45 near Leipzig, chasing civilians...
The mother of a friend of mine was a little girl in Germany at the end of the war, and she said one day she was going home with a glass jar of milk and an airplane flew over and strafed them, and it was just a bunch of civilians on the road. She said all that she knew about it was that it had two tails, meaning that it had to be a P38 lightning. General Curtis LeMay was quoted as saying, "It's a good thing that we won the war, or we would all be hanged for war crimes."
All sides commited crimes. The Allies are No exception. Human Nature.
@@stubi1103 Immernoch nichts im Vergleich zu dem, was die Deutschen und die Japaner im Krieg so getrieben haben.
Die Opferrolle darf man sich hier unter keinen Umständen anmaßen.
@@stubi1103 Doch.
Nazi sympathizers I will report you to the German government to be re educated
@11:00 the chart clearly shows that if you were hit by a 30mm mine round, you were not coming home. A very well presented, thought out and well researched video. Keep them coming.
It's quite a thing to behold without a doubt.
Moving now into the funny territory, I found of particular interest the frequent cases of: "Self-inflicted damage" (Apparently the Allies had to deal with depressed airplanes), and another curious cause of damage: "Empty shell casings or links", twice as many cases as the former! - And one that makes one wonder... how.... how did you manage to hurt a B-17 with a .50 bmg... loose cartridge link???
@@hansvonmannschaft9062 i suppose that if a casing from a friendly fighter or gunner falls in an engine or a windshield at 300mph, it can damage the airplane. But those are non fatal damages. As for the self inflicted damage, the guns in the aircraft are able to hit the wings or the tail if the gunner is not cautious enough.
@@pierrevilley6675 Pierre, you're absolutely right, and what you're saying is undisputable. I was making fun of one of the names they chose to catalogue what's known as "Friendly Fire" today, and regarding the "links & cartridges" entry, I found it just hilarious that after knowing (and us, seeing) how sturdy these machines were, to find out there were so many incidents of damaged materiel with loose links that the authorities needed a specific line to sort those out. Cheers.
Except plenty of people did. Maybe if you are talking about a fighter.
The chart shows nothing of the like. Those are just raw numbers, not adjusted by sortie or gun/cannon type encountered. There were far far fewer 30mm cannons in the air than 20mm or smaller thus the percentages skew low. We need substantially more information to draw that type of conclusion. You need to look at X number of returning aircraft with 50 cal, 20mm and 30mm damage per 100 encounters to make that claim.
I can’t get enough of listening to a truly smart person speak on personally researched, evidence based, facts. While considering variables and controls.
This got to be the most informative technical review of the air war in Europe on You tube. Excellent content and very well presented. WW2 nerd heaven!
Excellent summary. Had no idea the 30mm was such a devastating weapon.
The early Hayabusa had a bad habit of sometimes shooting themselves down when the 20mm rounds exploded in the gun when fired.
As usual, excellent content. Thank you for tracking down and sharing these contemporary reports and providing context as well.
I continue to be impressed by your videos and have been spreading the word. Honestly you have surpassed most of the RUclips makers in quality of info.
11:03 is a good example of survivor bias. Given how remarkably low the amount of damage caused by 20mm, 30mm and rocket fire was on returning bombers, it is quite likely that these rounds were significant contributors to the damage sustained by bombers that did not return.
Paradox: 20mm > 30mm
There is a famous photo of a B-17 that made it back to base with one 30mm hit. My recollection is it was different from the 11:36 photo - in this one the front of the wing was damaged.
This is one of the coolest videos I've seen in a good long while. I want an Mk-108 now. Thank you, sir.
its ideal for home defence
Nibba might mount it on a truck yo
It would be better to write it as MK 108, as the Germans did, because it represents the word Maschinekanone. I would do this to avoid confusion with the British Mk- designation, which was an abbreviation of "Mark" and is the source of a very common mistake made by English speakers when referring to the MK 108.
You really are presenting valuable information that few, if any, other platforms are providing.
Nicely done!
That pilot of that spitfire got as close as you could ever get to being the recipient of that cannon round behind the cockpit. Bet that woke him up a little when it went bang. Legend!
If he wasn't on the photo I'd ask:
"Has he stopped screaming yet?"
great video! impressive to see the scale of the 30mm versus the 20mm and the explosive yield! I had seen pictures of the results of the Spitfire test firing but the Blenheim clip was the icing on the cake haha.
I vaguely remember Eric Brown the British test pilot in his evaluation of the Me262 saying that because of the low muzzle velocity of the MK 108 and therefore a need to approach relatively close to a bomber before opening fire, coupled with an extraordinarily high closing speed meant that the aircraft was in desperate need of an airbrake (as per F86 Sabre) in order to bring firing and aiming time up from a few seconds.
One British bomber pilot , Squadron Leader Arthur Carter, commenting on the Me 262 thought it was overrated - its speed made it a lousy gun platform in his view. 262s he saw would attack a bomber formation, fire a wide spray of tracer, hit nothing and then disappear.
Well the only advantage that the 262 got is speed so common sense said if you get rid of that you're basically a sitting duck... All who know about the 262 i.e. flew it or studied it said do not engage in turning dogfights because you lose a lot of speed in a short duration of time. Airbrake shouldn't be considered an option
and it all changed when the R4M rocket wa introduced.
Thanks for this. I always guessed that a WW2 autocannon fired explosive rounds, but never knew before what the exact effect was. Now I know it :). Also a great example , like you said of Survivor Bias. Almost no bombers that got hit by 30mm, ever returned!
Great work. Thank you for the time you put in here.
The content of your video is always excellent and the subjects you highlight are always interesting.
Excellent vid dude.... greetings from Lima-Perú!!!
As the B-29 was operated against the Mig-15 in Korea with relatively poor results, leading to the bomber being used at night. It would be good to extend the analysis to the 23mm and 37mm canons used on Mig-15, do you have any data on the performance of the B-29 in that conflict? BTW I am not discounting the performance of the Mig-15 against the B-29 as a modern myth, hence why to ask such a well researched and learned source
Even while I can't deny I'd love just as much to see such a presentation, I humbly believe that the N. Korea situation was by that point, a case of overkill.
Russian pilots had the 37mm cannon removed or would not carry the ammo. The N-37 jammed it cycled slow and dropped fast after 100 yards. For a fighter v fighter ,50 cal is faster firing and big enough to knock down after a 3 second burst. Against a bomber like the B17 or the Lancaster 20 and 30 mm is a better weapon 4 mk108s would devastate a B 17. The British stuck to .303 for along time.German bombers were not as big as allied heavy bombers,even with 8 guns it took a lot of .303 to down a JU88 OR He III.They would be inadequate against a lanc or fort
@@markgranger9150 source?
(for the Mig 15 37mm/ammo removal)
Wow very lethal 😮 I did not expect that the 30mm had almost 5 times exlosive fill.
As opposed to just lethal
Absolutely amazing series of reports.
Although crammed with technical info, the videos flow & make for truly enjoyable & informative viewing. 👍
Great detail on explosive/destructive power of 20mm and 30mm rounds.
Really enjoyed learning about these, thanks for making the video.
those demonstration vid clips are rare...and terrifying...never seen anything like that
Lower muzzle velocity meant lower muzzle energy. Even forgetting the added size and weight, the recoil forces of the higher velocity MK-103 would have adversely affected a smaller aircraft's controlability, limiting their use to larger twin-engined aircraft. And since these larger aircraft faired badly against single-engine fighters, these higher velocity cannon would have been limited mostly to night fighters, which proved to be the case.
BS!With an explosive cannon shell,muzzle velocity is of no importance!
It has importance, with higher speed you have flat bullet trajectory and shorter flight time, meaning more acurate shots
@@pe.bo.5038 It effects range and accuracy---that's very important! Why have the awesome killer weapon if you can't hit anything with it?
Truly superb overview. Well done. That 30mm Minengeschoss is fricken terrifying. And an Me-262 with 4 Mk108? 😶🌫️🤯
My next video will be Me-262 vs US bombers
@@WWIIUSBombersdieses deutsche Flugzeug was durch die Propellerwelle geschossen hat ist auch eine außergewöhnliche Konstruktion. Scheinbar war den Ingenieuren öfters langweilig um sowas zu bauen.
Excellent video, thank you! I really enjoy watching your content.
Dude...that a hellof a video!!! Thanks for sharing and all the time it took to make.
Very well researched and presented! Thank you!
One of your best videos yet 👍
A very good presentation. Precise and informative. Thank you for this film.
Great video! Lots of good info. I like the graphics you added 👍. Those cannons were crazy! Insane they put them on planes.
Very well made, informative and unbiased video! Thank you very much.
Good stuff mang. Well laid out and very informative.
At least someone who does not uses the word "Nazi" five times in every sentence and gives a neutral comment about materiel and events. Bravo !
99% of aircraft getting hit by a 30mm didn't make it back
This was a great analysis with unique visuals. Cheers.
really enjoyed all the technical information ans pictures of damage caused. Thank you.
Thank you for this thoroughly and detailed analysis!
Excellent video. Thank you for the education you provide!
Fantastic video, keep up the good work.
A degree level lecture on aircraft weaponry. Excellent.
Goring was a huge advocate of the "mine shell" concept. But he was only familiar with WWI combat where the best results were obtained by getting very close to the enemy before firing. And indeed many German ace pilots of WWII agreed with this too. What they didn't reckon on was the huge defensive firepower of multiple 50 cals which outranged them.
Yep. The shells had low range due to the heavy weight and needed to be effective at closer ranger
Using the 50 cal at longer ranges was waste of ammunition. At least it was what US aces said. Of course bomber defense is different.
So effective that they needed P51 Mustangs with field modified extra fuel tanks in order for the B17s and B24s to survive.
@@samuelgordino using tight combat box formations and short bursts was effective for a bit
Mine shells are still used in contemporary fighter ammunition loadouts, perhaps in a combo mine-incendiary grenade. Although the cannons are mostly used for ground strafing, today.
Lots of good technical information, well done.
Great video, very informative.
High quality content.
Facts with context.
Not just endless lists of numbers, dates and locations.
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍🤓
Very well researched. Thanks for this.
Great video, to the point and good data examples. Well done.
This engineer really enjoyed this. Well done!
Axcellent job, man. Thank you
man, this is a stellar vid. Thanks!
Superb content and analysis. Keep it up!
The size comparison between the 20mm and 30mm rounds is quite remarkable, while I do not have an actual 3cm Mk 108 round, I do have a couple of the 3cm Mk 101/103 mine rounds (plus one casing) on belt links, the sheer scale of these things would be terrifying to be shot at.
11:00 this table has some other interesting data, like how ''self inflicted damage' goes down over time, and 'empty shell cases and links' can be dangerous.
I noticed that, too.
Thank you for this informative video!
Very well researched, I always get annoyed at RUclipsrs wiki videos but you actually read up and even had some stuff I didn’t know and I’m a real wwii geek.
I
Right on. Thanks for sharing.
AGV: Another great video.
Thanks for the video!
Fascinating history as always!
very well done 👏🏻...nice production
What an excellent vid, thanks.
I've been reading about this stuff for more than 40 years (I started young, LOL), and it's fantastic to see people making such excellent content on RUclips.
As a follow up thought, to me the obvious follow up to this video is to consider the following question (call it part 2?):
Given the differences in performances between the 20mm and 30mm, was the decision to use the 30mm a good one?
In answering that, I expect you'd likely want to rehash those differences while also considering questions of additional complications in the manufacturing and supply chains, not to mention looking into the "in the field" experiences of both pilots and their ground crews as the final pieces in the "did a mix of 20mm and 30mm in the field make sense OR would choosing one over the other have been better?" question.
Yes, the matter of shifting to all 30mm for example would also come into it if that were the answer, and I don't see that Germany could have completed that in the time they had left before their ultimate destruction.
The performance of one weapon compared with another is just ONE element in the far reaching question of which one to use, a point that is so often lost on people who look at the micro almost exclusively. I don't mean that as a dig at YOU, to be clear; in fact I think you'd do a great job based on the quality of this one.
So, any chance you'd be interested in making such a video?
As an aside, I believe the sum of those considerations is why the USA largely stuck with the .50 cal, although I expect you'd know more about that as it clearly falls within your speciality.
Cheers
Great vid dude
Coincidently just started watching Masters of the Air series. This video really gives me some information to think about while viewing the series.
Amazing, great research and sources.
Thank you, wow, so informative and objective!
There was, however, one big problem with the MK 108: it had a very low rate of fire. Something Mauser was trying to solve with the MK 213 revolver cannon when the war ended. Interestingly, the revolver cannon design became the basis for several postwar cannon designs, and Mauser developed it into the BK-27 cannon used on several modern fighter designs.
Hence the U.S. Fairchild A-10. Basically a flying 37mm cannon
Relatively short range as well, and a rather curved trajectory in flight. All these traits made it less than ideal against enemy single-engine fighters.
@@stevekaczynski3793 That's a consequence of the low muzzle velocity. All projectiles from guns/cannons on this planet follow a curve, but where that curve becomes recognizeable to the naked eye will vary with its initial velocity and the size of the projectile.
@@foxtrot312 30mm, and no, totally different gun design. Revolver cannons have a feed mechanism like a revolver handgun and a single non rotating barrel. ROTARY cannons have a rotating barrel and breech/feed assembly. Revolver cannons can basically be instantly be at their maximum cyclic rate while Rotary cannons take time to spin the barrels up to the maximum rate. In terms of weight of shell fired, a Mauser BK-27 at 1,700 rpm puts out more in half a second than does either M61A1 20mm vulcan cannon (at 6,000 rpm,), the GAU-8 (at 4,200 rpm) or the GAU-12 (at 4,200 rpm), and its doing so at a muzzle velocity greater than any of the rotary guns. Its also a better gun installation in terms of accuracy being about 10 times better (and thus 1/10th the dispersion) of those Rotary guns.
Did it maybe influence the mini gun?
This video is exceptional... Very very well done
Very good analysis! I always wonder the effectiveness of cannon, now I understand. Thanks!
Good research thank you.
Love the channel… keep it up!!!
This is great ....very interesting!
I love this kind of indepth info......Thanks for taking the time and effort.
The ME262 had 4 of the M108 in its nose. That solved the problem of the low fire rate. 4 of them fired around 40 projectiles per second!
But it was too fast for this weapon. It was so fast, it was impossible to aim according to postwar Allied flight testing, one had to just fire and hope you were on target!
That was really interesting. Well done.
Thanks for the education.
Awesome video thanks
and in Hollywood films, pilots simply flew on injured after being hit by Me 262 30 mm projectiles
I’ve never realized how much those old German 30mms resemble Mk19s
Good information and well presented, interesting. Good vid.
Explained very well.
Interesting video. Thank you and keep on.
you, sir, are a prince. thanks for your content!
9:08 _"...the detonation reduced the wing structural integrity and aerodynamic performance..."_ *shows obliterated wing...*
...Welp, here we got the understatement of the year, presented in rarely heard engineering terms and with amazing documentation!
Annnd leaving this silly joke aside, sir, you won the internet today. The research, the perfect edition and scripting, you gave a University-level lecture on the subject. I tip my hat to thee, fine gent.
+1, Subbed obviously, absolutely fantastic job, thank you, very much!
Very interesting. Thank you.
Excellent technical video
Great video!
Excellent! Well done.
Great Video!
Nice video, thanks. Speaking of Japanese 20mm cannons, I remember an interview of a Japanese pilot where they asked him how he felt about their 20mm cannon - He said it had "a trajectory like a stream of piss".
I saw that same interview, translated by TakaLeon.
Very good presentation of the available evidence
Great job!!! Thx
Well done. Very interesting.
The number of bombers damaged by empty casings and links is actually kind of shocking 10:30
How does that even work I wonder?
Hitting a rather large mass with a propeller blade can't be good for it.
@@hunterbidensaidslesion1356 i suppose first it damages the prop and then the prop hit might fling the empty casing into your fuselage, or another prop! I am imagining aerial pinball if a piece of aerial debris gets flipped between multiple aircraft.
Really excellent channel. Thank you!
incredible vid well done
Outstanding video