For a simple and comfortable cycling life, a flat saddle positioned horizontally and a "modest" saddle to handlebar drop is a great recipe. Spice things up a little with a curved saddle or advanced aerodynamic pretentions. For the latest "not so marginal" gain, set your saddle for the day's climbing!
After watching your video today about saddle adjustment, I decided to change mine from -5 to -2. To my surprise, I didn’t feel any pain in my hands or lower back, nor did I experience any discomfort. I managed to hit 900 watts for the first time in a long time! I’m not sure if the saddle adjustment played a role in that, but thank you so much for this amazing video and for sharing such valuable tips!
Do you ride on level ground, and did you miss that his concept is largely for climbing? My upper body fatigues firt when I am riding hilly routs and I suspect that is weak upper body needing excercize focus for upper body. I’ll be tilting down significantly now at least to test.
Really nice balanced presentation. One thing to note is that riding uphill and riding in a lower aerodynamic position are both rotating the pelvis more than a typical “riding on the tops” position. I have been riding for years with a 9-10 degrees dropped nose, but I also have a lot of forward hip rotation. I don’t slide forward on the saddle and when I did a Retul fit last year my measurements all fell within the normal ranges. All people are different so it probably makes sense to try things aren’t considered orthodox.
Thanks Michael. Your saddle position obviously works well for you, given (I assume) excellent flexibility, and you've adapted to it over the years. I'm an outlier in the other direction, with very stiff hips that keep me riding much more upright than most. Everyone I know loves drafting behind me!
Since I ride in a hilly area most of the time with gradients with 12% max. I'll stick to a rather conservative 2.5 to 3% tilt downwards. That provides me with enough relief for a aeroposition without me sliding around like Santa. Thanks for the video! I really like your composed attitude in a day and age of constant excitement.
Thanks Daniel. Appreciate your comment. They say public speaking is one of people's greatest fears. Speaking to a camera is marginally easier because you get a do-over if you need, but it is still a challenge to portray the optimal level of energy. Maybe one day I'll try a Hambini style intro just for laughs...
This was great! No joke, I was planning on making this video for fun and to help synthesize the information out there, but haven't had the chance. I found that if I followed Phill's or Neill's advice regarding the nose of a curved saddle being level or slightly down, I always fall forward and have poor hamstring engagement. Some other points worth mentioning to this video: James: The tail of curved saddles may cause some riders to fall forwards, regardless of tilt angle. Jame's popular bike fitting saddles have been semi-curved to near flat saddles like Pro Griffin or Selle Italia SLR Boost, which half very slight tilts. Neil: SMP and similar saddles hold the riders in the place. Neill seems to have personal success fitting people with SMPs, which are, e.g., 10mm nose down. Bikefit advisor: Curved saddles can be more challenging to fit by yourself.
Thanks again! Curved saddles are generally not fitted as standard on new bikes. Flat (flatter) saddles are just going to suit the greatest number of cyclists straight off the shelf...
I used to do this as a beginner, as I believed it gave me something to push against as I jammed big gears all the time and wrecked my right knee. With a level saddle, I learned to pull with the arms as I jammed up steep hills or "motored," as in a time trial, in the saddle. Obviously, this pulling takes energy, especially on hills, since gravity is also trying to pull the hips off the back of the saddle. On the other hand, pushing to keep from sliding off the nose of a tilted saddle takes energy, too. My preferred saddles have a bit of a cantle that gives me some support if I set the part that I sit on perfectly level.
Every change to a bike fit position is going to have positive and negative consequences. The trick is to know what you are optimising for, ie your main goal
What would be the best sequence for a saddle fit...? height, then backwards and forwards, then angle...? Perhaps we can get some data on the nose down approach for Norton Summit? plenty of attempts at that for reference, so the compensatory angle might really show up in the data... As a casual rider, I think for me, saddle width is a more viable issue to address for comfort, being a big person, with wide sit bones, the pressure is applied down the centre instead of on the preferred contact points when using a 'skinny' saddle, irrespective of any curve it may have or angle.
Hey David. Great question about sequence of set up. Many bike fitters will tackle cleat position first, then head upstream to the saddle. Each of the three vectors of saddle adjustment will have a bearing on the others. Putting my physio hat on I'd probably change the most obvious "Issue" first then look at the more marginal positional tweaks. Depends on the person though. If someone comes in to see me adamant their saddle height is a problem, from a biopsychosocial (sorry for jargon) point of view, this would be the best place to start, then they feel "heard". As for Norton, the classic Strava segment lists the incline as 5.1% average, but it levels out a bit at the top. So maybe a tilt between 5-6 degrees would be ideal. However I think the gains (or reduced performance losses) come on steeper slopes.
Very helpful! For a Sella Italia SLR Boost (which looks to be similar to what you have on your bike in the video) what would be your recommended angle to start from, when measuring with a chopping board along the whole saddle?
Its hard to go into specifics for individual saddles and individual riders however in general: - if only a small section at the rear has an upward flare, I'd probably ditch the chopping board and run your iphone level along the flat front 2/3 and get this at the angle you want (eg 0-2 degs down) - if the change in angle happens half way along the saddle, then you might be looking at running the board from front to back for your 0-2 degs measure I'm assuming the saddle has only a small change in pitch along the sitting surface...
If I am on an endurance bike for grand fondos. I will not do the hill climb seat setting. I am currently riding on rollers in the winter. I have the saddle set for flat riding.
Hi Andrew. Moderate is of course subjective. I'd say somewhere between 5 - 8 cm. More than this requires both better than average flexibility and strength
Can see the soigneurs being tasked to photograph competitors saddles prior to each stage, to measure the tilt and work out which mountain to say goodbye to Pogacar on LOL
James actually does suggest tilt on some saddles. More minimal. I don't think I've heard him suggest anything passed 1.5 or 2 degrees. Most saddles with a bit of curve at the back I end up around 1.4-1.8 degrees. Totally flat saddles around a degree is nice for my current position. But my position isn't super aggressive. I get all those symptoms you listed if I'm on either end of the ideal position for me. I like to start a touch too flat and tilt it gradually till I feel that weight on the hands then back off it a bit. Usually the saddle feels like weight is evenly distributed across the saddle if it is right.
I like the idea of making small alterations to a position until you get to a subjective "threshold", however it is very time consuming. You would either need to have very short experimentation times during a bike fit (5-10 mins only per iteration), or do it yourself over several days.
@podiumphysio657 for a bike fit I could see how that could be problematic because there are time constraints. It took me a while to figure all this out and find a comfortable position. Now that I understand what I'm looking for I can ballpark it then micro adjust from there. I've gone out with the sole purpose of working on it. Can take me a couple hours. Usually though I just make some adjustments over the course of a few rides and can get it dialed from that. It was a lot of trial and error to get to that point but it was also something I wanted to understand.
Hey Steve. I know Brooks have a cult following, but I've never tried one and I've only ever seen one other cyclist with one - many years ago on a multi day charity ride. If it works for you then thats a great outcome.
@podiumphysio657 I'm also looking at the infinity saddles that are made here in LA. They sponsor the RAAM each year and many ride them without padded shorts. I saw 2 riders on the AIDS ride back in june that had them on their bikes and they were very comfortable.
@@stevemullin1195 I just had a quick look online at those. My gut reaction is "curved saddle - doesnt make sense" and "massive cut out is going to increase load at remaining contact points". I suspect this saddle will remain a bespoke option, but obviously it helps some people.
@podiumphysio657 I'm too old to be racing so I'm looking for a comfortable saddle to ride while I'm touring. Want a system where I can ride more then 8hrs a day without wearing padded shorts or bibs. Hearing too many stories about saddle sores while using chamois because they get wet and nasty which leads to infections. Would rather wear merino wool underwear without seams under light quick dry hiking shorts.
For a simple and comfortable cycling life, a flat saddle positioned horizontally and a "modest" saddle to handlebar drop is a great recipe. Spice things up a little with a curved saddle or advanced aerodynamic pretentions. For the latest "not so marginal" gain, set your saddle for the day's climbing!
After watching your video today about saddle adjustment, I decided to change mine from -5 to -2. To my surprise, I didn’t feel any pain in my hands or lower back, nor did I experience any discomfort. I managed to hit 900 watts for the first time in a long time! I’m not sure if the saddle adjustment played a role in that, but thank you so much for this amazing video and for sharing such valuable tips!
Do you ride on level ground, and did you miss that his concept is largely for climbing? My upper body fatigues firt when I am riding hilly routs and I suspect that is weak upper body needing excercize focus for upper body. I’ll be tilting down significantly now at least to test.
@ADKMZ1 That is great to hear. I'm very pleased for you!
Really nice balanced presentation. One thing to note is that riding uphill and riding in a lower aerodynamic position are both rotating the pelvis more than a typical “riding on the tops” position. I have been riding for years with a 9-10 degrees dropped nose, but I also have a lot of forward hip rotation. I don’t slide forward on the saddle and when I did a Retul fit last year my measurements all fell within the normal ranges.
All people are different so it probably makes sense to try things aren’t considered orthodox.
Thanks Michael. Your saddle position obviously works well for you, given (I assume) excellent flexibility, and you've adapted to it over the years. I'm an outlier in the other direction, with very stiff hips that keep me riding much more upright than most. Everyone I know loves drafting behind me!
Since I ride in a hilly area most of the time with gradients with 12% max. I'll stick to a rather conservative 2.5 to 3% tilt downwards. That provides me with enough relief for a aeroposition without me sliding around like Santa.
Thanks for the video! I really like your composed attitude in a day and age of constant excitement.
Thanks Daniel. Appreciate your comment. They say public speaking is one of people's greatest fears. Speaking to a camera is marginally easier because you get a do-over if you need, but it is still a challenge to portray the optimal level of energy. Maybe one day I'll try a Hambini style intro just for laughs...
This was great! No joke, I was planning on making this video for fun and to help synthesize the information out there, but haven't had the chance. I found that if I followed Phill's or Neill's advice regarding the nose of a curved saddle being level or slightly down, I always fall forward and have poor hamstring engagement. Some other points worth mentioning to this video:
James: The tail of curved saddles may cause some riders to fall forwards, regardless of tilt angle. Jame's popular bike fitting saddles have been semi-curved to near flat saddles like Pro Griffin or Selle Italia SLR Boost, which half very slight tilts.
Neil: SMP and similar saddles hold the riders in the place. Neill seems to have personal success fitting people with SMPs, which are, e.g., 10mm nose down.
Bikefit advisor: Curved saddles can be more challenging to fit by yourself.
Thanks again! Curved saddles are generally not fitted as standard on new bikes. Flat (flatter) saddles are just going to suit the greatest number of cyclists straight off the shelf...
I used to do this as a beginner, as I believed it gave me something to push against as I jammed big gears all the time and wrecked my right knee. With a level saddle, I learned to pull with the arms as I jammed up steep hills or "motored," as in a time trial, in the saddle. Obviously, this pulling takes energy, especially on hills, since gravity is also trying to pull the hips off the back of the saddle. On the other hand, pushing to keep from sliding off the nose of a tilted saddle takes energy, too. My preferred saddles have a bit of a cantle that gives me some support if I set the part that I sit on perfectly level.
Every change to a bike fit position is going to have positive and negative consequences. The trick is to know what you are optimising for, ie your main goal
After dropper seat posts for MTB's, variable tilt saddles for road bikes?
Yup - pretty sure its coming...
What would be the best sequence for a saddle fit...? height, then backwards and forwards, then angle...? Perhaps we can get some data on the nose down approach for Norton Summit? plenty of attempts at that for reference, so the compensatory angle might really show up in the data... As a casual rider, I think for me, saddle width is a more viable issue to address for comfort, being a big person, with wide sit bones, the pressure is applied down the centre instead of on the preferred contact points when using a 'skinny' saddle, irrespective of any curve it may have or angle.
Hey David. Great question about sequence of set up. Many bike fitters will tackle cleat position first, then head upstream to the saddle. Each of the three vectors of saddle adjustment will have a bearing on the others. Putting my physio hat on I'd probably change the most obvious "Issue" first then look at the more marginal positional tweaks. Depends on the person though. If someone comes in to see me adamant their saddle height is a problem, from a biopsychosocial (sorry for jargon) point of view, this would be the best place to start, then they feel "heard".
As for Norton, the classic Strava segment lists the incline as 5.1% average, but it levels out a bit at the top. So maybe a tilt between 5-6 degrees would be ideal. However I think the gains (or reduced performance losses) come on steeper slopes.
Very helpful! For a Sella Italia SLR Boost (which looks to be similar to what you have on your bike in the video) what would be your recommended angle to start from, when measuring with a chopping board along the whole saddle?
Its hard to go into specifics for individual saddles and individual riders however in general:
- if only a small section at the rear has an upward flare, I'd probably ditch the chopping board and run your iphone level along the flat front 2/3 and get this at the angle you want (eg 0-2 degs down)
- if the change in angle happens half way along the saddle, then you might be looking at running the board from front to back for your 0-2 degs measure
I'm assuming the saddle has only a small change in pitch along the sitting surface...
For me, angle down slightly helps with climbing, especially steep inclines
Sounds like you have found your "Sweet spot" angle!
Important to note that you must have a 2 bolt post for accurate angle setting.
Yes that definitely helps.
If I am on an endurance bike for grand fondos. I will not do the hill climb seat setting. I am currently riding on rollers in the winter. I have the saddle set for flat riding.
Sounds sensible for your program and your goals Edward
What do you consider a moderate amount of saddle bar drop for road cycling? 6’1 seat height of 76.5mm.
Hi Andrew. Moderate is of course subjective. I'd say somewhere between 5 - 8 cm. More than this requires both better than average flexibility and strength
@ thanks for that.
@@andrew9579 No problem
there was a video on youtube on how Pogi "preloads" his saddle if he plans long uphill attacks.
Can see the soigneurs being tasked to photograph competitors saddles prior to each stage, to measure the tilt and work out which mountain to say goodbye to Pogacar on LOL
James actually does suggest tilt on some saddles. More minimal. I don't think I've heard him suggest anything passed 1.5 or 2 degrees.
Most saddles with a bit of curve at the back I end up around 1.4-1.8 degrees. Totally flat saddles around a degree is nice for my current position. But my position isn't super aggressive.
I get all those symptoms you listed if I'm on either end of the ideal position for me. I like to start a touch too flat and tilt it gradually till I feel that weight on the hands then back off it a bit. Usually the saddle feels like weight is evenly distributed across the saddle if it is right.
I like the idea of making small alterations to a position until you get to a subjective "threshold", however it is very time consuming. You would either need to have very short experimentation times during a bike fit (5-10 mins only per iteration), or do it yourself over several days.
@podiumphysio657 for a bike fit I could see how that could be problematic because there are time constraints. It took me a while to figure all this out and find a comfortable position. Now that I understand what I'm looking for I can ballpark it then micro adjust from there. I've gone out with the sole purpose of working on it. Can take me a couple hours. Usually though I just make some adjustments over the course of a few rides and can get it dialed from that. It was a lot of trial and error to get to that point but it was also something I wanted to understand.
@@starlitshadows Well done educating yourself on a vast and ever changing topic!
I like riding on a brooks b17 leather saddle on my touring bike as the leather will form to my bum over time.
Hey Steve. I know Brooks have a cult following, but I've never tried one and I've only ever seen one other cyclist with one - many years ago on a multi day charity ride. If it works for you then thats a great outcome.
@podiumphysio657 I'm also looking at the infinity saddles that are made here in LA. They sponsor the RAAM each year and many ride them without padded shorts. I saw 2 riders on the AIDS ride back in june that had them on their bikes and they were very comfortable.
@@stevemullin1195 I just had a quick look online at those. My gut reaction is "curved saddle - doesnt make sense" and "massive cut out is going to increase load at remaining contact points". I suspect this saddle will remain a bespoke option, but obviously it helps some people.
@podiumphysio657 I'm too old to be racing so I'm looking for a comfortable saddle to ride while I'm touring. Want a system where I can ride more then 8hrs a day without wearing padded shorts or bibs. Hearing too many stories about saddle sores while using chamois because they get wet and nasty which leads to infections. Would rather wear merino wool underwear without seams under light quick dry hiking shorts.
@@stevemullin1195 Living the dream!
A free minute on a hill might not justify me getting a sore arse but.
Not just any old hill....
It feels like you dont get to the point.. Get on with it!
Thanks for watching johnny