Great video as usual Dave. As a ev potential buyer in January here I find all the videos very informative. What I did notice the past 3-4 days whilst travelling down to York and back the the chargers where very busy and scotch corner had queues .
Thanks Dave. I enjoy all of your blogs and I find them very useful as I got my first ev back in September 2024 on a 74 plate and still rather new to the understanding on how EV and charging works.
fantastic to see upgrades to the changing network. I'm not in a position to get an electric vehicle yet but when i can at least the public charging network would have caught up a bit. Thanks Dave !
Great explanation for how charging should now be in the way of payments etc. I totally agree with you on picking up the charge cables if they had been left on the floor. Also, I have found several chargers not working, so a quick phone call to the number and they often do a reboot and it works. A good idea to call to advise of missing parts such as the holder. Please keep telling people to avoid the 79p chargers as many other options are now available as you point out in your monthly pricing roundups.
@@DJBaldPaul ?? It was more or less broken anyway, at least for that cable. IAC you could grab the cable at a lower place and pull it down if you wanted. But I don't know why you would.
I do like the gridserve chargers. Very simple, usually good charge speeds, and becoming very popular. Usually a good layout too. I particularly like the new Stevenage one. A brilliant setup. But we do need a regular user discount, beyond the 5% please.
5:45 Tesla uses 480V to keep the equipment and design standard as much as possible with the USA where 480 V/3 phase is what is used for industrial and commercial applications
It’ll also run at lower current for any given power output - until it gets to the car , where the current and voltage will be dependent on the actual battery requirements.
How easy are the low down contactless readers to use for tall people with dodgy backs? Not sure I could bend low enough to be able to read that little screen.
exactly 29kW/h charging and 79p. I don't even consider Gridserve, BP, Ionity etc because of the price. Indeed I even ditched my Ionity subscription because it was cheaper at Tesla without a sub.
Dave a quick update, 400v is the harmonised three-phase voltage in the UK - the voltage having been standardised across Europe 22 years ago, before which the UK was baselined at 415v and Europe at 380v. This is a nominal voltage with the tolerance range being anywhere between 360v to 440v. The 480v is included as a transformer tap these days to support American made power equipment (although the US three-phase supply can vary from 208v to 480v). However, in the UK these will operate at 50Hz rather than 60Hz, so will need to be uprated as the total voltage per cycle will be higher in the UK.
Sandbags North would be a good place to charge when I go from Norfolk to the Northwest to visit family. But ZapMap have been showing all chargers at Sandbach northbound as closed for more than a year. Did you check the Northbound?
You mention the northbound chargers.... are you sure in saying there are 6 gridserve 350k on the northbound?? Last time i was there northbound didn't, not shown on Zap Map either... no decent chargers at any services M6 northbound through Cheshire. Last time i was there you had to use the services vehicle bridge to get to the better chargers on the southbound.
R&D time/cost and platform engineering, plus it's a price point differentiator. Kia/Hyundai reserve 800v for their premium models for example, with the Kia EV9 and EV6 being 800v and the EV3 and EV5 (and forthcomming EV4) being 400v architectures.
For Tesla, it's because they began the whole thing at a mass scale, and they faced a ton of opposition even going as high as 400V at the time. For the legacy automakers, it's just their business model. Where they provide lower end features for their lower end products, even though 800V is cheaper to manufacture than 400V. They don't want to be selling an 800V vehicle for under $30,000 since that would really hurt the sales of their higher end, costlier vehicles.
@@junehanzawa5165 - yes and no. The battery wiring on 800v can be a thinner guage as less current is required to be carried. However, the battery parallel/series setup for 800v differs, the on board charge controllers and BMS's differ as well as the motors and they use high power capacity battery cells (i.e. more expensive), as the charge rate is much faster at 800v. For example, the 400v 81.4kWh EV3 will charge 0 to 100% in 50 minutes (at a max of 150kW), whilst the 800v EV6 84kWh battery will do the same 0 to 100% in 28 minutes (at a max of 260kW). The EV6 splits the 84kWh pack into two 800v 42kWh ones and charges both at 130kWh in parallel (as the packs are smaller with fewer cells they have to be more costly higher power rated cells). Also, when charging at 400V chargers (such as on Tesla chargers) the EV6 uses additional electronics to step up the voltage to 800v to charge the batteries. The additional and uprated electronics (the EV6 uses expensive silicon carbid mosfets for example), higher spec batteries and specialist motors make 800v platforms more expensive than 400v ones to produce, on top of which some mechanism for supporting 400v only charging (a boost circuit or battery-splitting like in the Taycan and Cybertruck) has to be implmented.
Yes, that's my new plan at V2 sites. A wrong sider gets to reserve both bays and gets the full 150kW, why should I split it?! We were at a 20 bay V2 site in France, I was the only car there, until a French guy pulled onto the adjacent stall, splitting power. Unbelievable! 🤷
They should use those 50/60kW for ChaDeMo, and not waste a space on high speed chargers on a 50kW charging EV its own manufacturer never cared to support. Also, for DC charging, the charger is NOT inside the EV. That's only true for AC charging where the vehicle converts the AC to DC. On DC, the charger itself does the conversion and provides DC directly. This is why DC Fast Chargers are so expensive compared to L2 chargers.
Be interesting to see how all these chargers provide power when they’re all on. I wonder what the KVA rating of the step down transformers are on this site. I estimate there is a 500kVA (1.8m x 1.2 x 0.9) transformer in the cabinet. Which means it can only supply a maximum of 100Amps per charger . If all chargers had empty EVs on them the power would be disturbed evenly at a charge rate
Strange that we talked to the installation engineers while it was being built and they said there was plenty of power to supply full power to each charger. Sorry, but I will go with the installation engineers facts instead of your guesses
@ then why did the BMW charge at 60kWh when the Batterry would be in its optimal charging zone charging from 20% when there was only 2 cars on charge. These chargers are probably throttled to 80kWh because of the size of the transformer in the box. Dave next time your on location the kVA rating will be on a label on the outside of the cabinet. But the size of the transformer is proportional to the power output. It’s not a very big cabinet so it can’t have a very big transformer inside and the BMW charging rate supports this. The BMW in shot should have been charging at 150kWh and reached full charge in 20 to 30 minutes it was charging at an average rate of 60kWh. Funny that with so few cars on charge.
At the size of the container 'shed' and minaturisation of switchgear these days there are 5000kVA units that would fit in that space these days. Plus the charger cabinets appear to be fairly large units, with one per charge point device, that could acommodate an internal battery for peak charging. So in short speculating what the site power rating and charging capacity on the basis of an image is pretty meaningless.
@ it’s the size of the green transformer unit. You can’t shrink a transformer. There will have been a calculation by the utility company based on cost and probability and the green transformer locker that feeds the AC to the chargers looks about 1.8 m high and 2m wide so have a look and see what the biggest transformer you can fit in the box. If you look at the BMW it averaged 60kWh charging from about 20 to 100% if the charge was 25kWh at 98% it probably didn’t get any where near the 150kWh charge rate that this car is allegedly capable of charging at. This is another example of you expect 230 miles in 20 minutes and get 120 to 160 miles in 39minutes.
@@tobycolin6271 - yes aware, it's the large 'shed' style container behind the smaller brown fire hydrant 'shed'. The size of the green container would fit most of today's 1MVA to 5MVA pad mounted transformers. These sheds tend to be used it tight spaces with nearby pedestrian access, where a chainlink fence and separation space would take up too much area or would be an eyesore. One cannot project based on one car's current charge screen status, the site could have been busier earlier in the charge cycle but cleared out as Dave started to film with the BMW not getting the full power requsted till later in the charge sessions. Or perhaps the site is partially provisioned, happens quite a bit these days due to DNO bureaucratic process delays. As this site has two pre-existing fast and one slow charger, the site's supply agreement might have reflected that plus any forward provision (likely fast/rapid given the sites age) put forward by Electric Highway at the time of the original install. A new request to the DNO could have been put forward to uprate the site for ultra-rapids and is going through the process. There are a fair number of sites where this is happening, which is why the government put forward new policy a few days ago to speed up the connection process. The new ultra-rapids could have been installed on the previous sites electricity provision, with an uprated transformer and ultra-rapid chargers waiting for the supply upgrade to go live; perhaps assisting to accelerate the request process by collecting data on usage (I believe active major routes requests get priority processing).
Anyone explain why the BMW that is on charge has only charged at an average of 60kWH. Dave tells us that it has charged 39kwh in 39 minutes averaging 60kWh. It was still charging at 24kWh at 98% there’s no way the charger delivered the 150kW that this car is capable of charging at. 20 to 80% 231 miles of charge is achievable in 20 minutes on a 150kWH these chargers aren’t delivering that with 33% occupancy.
As your other post on the same subject: One cannot project based on one car's current charge screen status, the site could have been busier earlier in the charge cycle but cleared out as Dave started to film with the BMW not getting the full power requsted till later in the charge sessions, at which point the car's battery state of charge had ramped down the 24kW at the 98% as shown on the screen. Or perhaps the site is partially provisioned, happens quite a bit these days due to DNO bureaucratic process delays. As this site has two pre-existing fast and one slow charger, the site's supply agreement might have reflected that plus any forward provision (likely fast/rapid given the sites age) put forward by Electric Highway at the time of the original install. A new request to the DNO could have been put forward to uprate the site for ultra-rapids and is going through the process. There are a fair number of sites where this is happening, which is why the government put forward new policy a few days ago to speed up the connection/provisioning process. The new ultra-rapids could have been installed on the previous sites electricity provision, with an uprated transformer and ultra-rapid chargers waiting for the supply upgrade to go live; perhaps assisting to accelerate the request process by collecting data on usage (I believe active major routes requests get priority processing). This would mean the site is currently supply limited with respect to charging capability.
@GruffSillyGoat if that’s the case don’t put the 300 or 150kWh marketing on the chargers. this is why lots of people with EVs are un happy the sales and marketing of both the car manufacturers and charging infrastructure are not delivering the charging performance expected. Both this new charging station and the car should have charged at 150kWh according to the marketing. But the actual average charge rate is 60kWh. It’s not what is expected and one of the reasons as more people are dependent on the public network more people are dissatisfied. A 5 MVA transformer is about 2m nigh and 2m wide and 2.2 to 2.4 m deep they fit mainly in chained fence installations in the open air or buildings about the size of a double garage. Let’s hold the installation to account pop a EV at its optimal batterry charge point and see what rate of charge these new installations are actually doing. Better still we could get say 4 to 6 EVs to plug in and see what it’s actually like on a busy day. If the charge providers are advertising one thing and delivering another then we should be informed. That would be proper there is no point in 150kWh if with one car and five free bays you can only deliver 60kWh average.
What are you going on about, these chargers have no charge rate marketing on them, they display the rate available on their screen and in the Gridserve app based on conditions at the time. EV owners are aware that local conditions vary, which is why Zapmap states the rates as 'upto'. This is one reason why the recent regulations places open data (OCPI based) requirements on chargers so such data is available to EV owners, such real time data is now accessible to sites like Zapmap and could even be integrated with the cars navigation when locating chargers of a certain power level when out and about.
@ just look at the video Dave starts his video showing the old 50KWh chargers then at 3.11 goes on to show us the bank of 6 shiny new 150kWh chargers. At 4.29 shows us the tiny cabinet with the 415v transformer about the size you expect a 500kVA transformer to reside in next to the 6 150kW chargers. At the end of the video he shows us that the BMW has taken on board 39kWh of charge at a rate of 1kWh per minute and is finishing its charge at 24kWh. There is only one other vehicle on charge and so you would have expected the BMW to have charged at a much higher rate. The BMW according to the marketing can charge 10 to 80% in 35 minutes (which is an average charge rate of 95kWh) this charger delivered a much lower rate and this is the reason charge times are longer than expected and people like me experience dissatisfaction with EVs using public chargers. On average in my experience just like the car in the video it takes twice as long to charge than we were led to believe. The charge bays aren’t even fully occupied and normally you see even less charge availability when they are full. Which goes back to my original observation tiny transformer footprint servicing a lot of chargers how big is it and what’s the site capacity.
@ that’s not what is said in the video 6 new shiny 150kW chargers on this side and power supplied to the 6 chargers on the other side plus the existing chargers and site demands. Anyway it’s a lot of KVAs. The BMW in the shot should average approximately 100kWh charging it was averaging 60kWh and this is similar to what I’ve experienced it seems to take twice as long to charge than you expect.
Not the first time you've been a bit off but the first time I've mentioned it 🙃, for DC Chadamo/CCS2 the car does not have an onboard charger, that is all managed by the charger/cabinet, the car tells the charger what it's requirements are and the charger gives the car as many amps as it's able to (upto the cars max) directly into the battery, I believe you are mixing up the AC and DC charging processes 👍
@@salan3 That ‘etc’ includes all the charging/discharging requirements of the battery depending on battery temperature (high or low), maximum current curve, cell/battery voltage and probably a few others.
It seems Dave is seeking to simplify things for his audience and explain how he understands chargers work, introducing his own terminology at the same time. He should really caveat this is his own way of describing things else may cause confusion. With DC the role of 'charger' is split between the car - which has a demand side charge controller and battery management system - and the charger cabinet, which has a supply side charge controller and variable voltage/current power supply. The cabinet is more akin to the 'charger' meaning we're used to with mobile phones or 12v battery chargers. Whats more since most chargers are now part of a smart grid system, the electricity supply grid can also dynamically instruct the charger cabinet to vary the current drawn to balance local energy demand levels. In effect there is a constant communication exchange between the grid, the charger cabinet and the car as to the level of voltage and current available, supplied and requested, respectively. Dave is just simplifying things to what he believes suits a more digestable description for his videos.
Do you ever research anything you spout out ? BMW’s cleanest and greenest 3 Series ever has just completed a record-breaking journey from the UK to Munich and back - on one tank of fuel. Filled up at the Channel Tunnel, the new BMW 320d EfficientDynamics Saloon made it to Munich, then as far as Lille on the return leg - a staggering total of 1,013 miles on a single tank of fuel - before needing to be refuelled. To put it in a UK geographic context, the distance achieved would have meant being able to drive from Land’s End to John O’Groats, and still having 200 miles range left in the tank. This was in 2010.
So whats your point? How does that relate to this video? A Horse and Cart can do 1000 miles if you put enough hay in the cart. Would leave an awful lot of horse manure behind it too.
I was on the M25 in the UK for 2 Hours on Boxing Day 4- Lane Motorway I was Courting EV Cars and there where Thousands of Car and i Counted 15 EVS in 2 HRS The PEOPLE who wanted a EV have Now BOUGHT one it's CONVECTING the REST of CARS BUYERS to buy EVS and WELL there NOT ??
Perhaps you and they will be persuaded by FSD? 'Black Tesla' is one of the early You Tube recipient/testers of software {only 6 or so of them). He has several videos of the new software which went on general release to the newest cars before Christmas. His video 'Tesla's FSD 13.2.2 First Impressions Drive' gives a flavour of what is coming.. If that doesn't convince you then watch the ones in the heavy rain and traffic in the centre of New York. The future is bright, the future is FSD.
EV cars only make up 3.6% of all cars on UK roads. EV vans make up 1.4%. Both are falling in numbers. The incentive for business users is wiped out by the eye wateringly expensive, ridiculously unreliable charge network. Private buyers aren't buying them in enough numbers. Because of cataclysmic depreciation most private buyers are buying used which isn't helping new sales. That's why lots of manufacturers are on the verge of bankruptcy.
@@Un-Apologetic The reason why legacy car companies are struggling is because they ignored the writing on the wall re climate change, etc. The percentage of EV cars will most certainly balloon after 2030.🙂🙂🙂
The last thing someone in a wheelchair wants is to be turning up to chargers that don't work. 79p = The EV experiment killer. You're flogging a dead horse Dave.
@@sargfowler9603 When I am told this I always ask a simple question. How many Long journeys did you drive last year, or the year before. What does you ICE car cost per mile/ How often in reality did you exceed the range of most current EVs in one day? My own EV , a humble 62kw LEAF , is good for a journey within a 100 mile radius without needing to charge away from home. Or of course on a 200+ mile journey I only have to top up with enough to get home. For some an EV does not yet have the range for their life on the road, but for the majority of drivers, who have a commute of less than 100 miles, or who drive to the supermarket 20 miles away once a week. an EV charged at home is very cost effective.
Got to agree.. EV sales are slowing and the rhetoric is changing from “poor EV infrastructure” to “to expensive compared to petrol /diesel“ and that is true. EV sales will stall until prices come down for a) those that can’t charge from home or don’t want the expense of a home charger installation and b) EV depreciation for none lease or company scheme buyers is not so wild and/or c) interest rates drop for used EVs. ‘Just my observation’… happy new year !
@@solentbumyour points raised are correct, there is however a segment of the population that is often overlooked and that is we pensioners. I bought an EV convinced it would be cheap motoring and great for my desire to do UK & European road trips at leisure and on a pensioner’s budget (state pension only being received), however the reality is it’s costing much more than my previous diesel SUV, the insurance is 50% more also, So, I for one and I’m sure not alone would dearly (no pun intended) would like to see these costs come down, that said I understanding the scale of investment involved and the need to recoup some if the cost, however I’m convinced that even Tesla owners would charge at nine Tesla charging stations if prices were competitive. Happy motoring..
@@solentbum Spot on Sir/Madam. These individuals who spout rubbish about EVs, and attempt to denigrate them, are actually few and far between. Same ones on several channels. Always the same rubbish arguments of why EVs will fail. Wrong on all counts. 2030 for the exclusion of new ICE cars from the market (unless the government do a U-turn) is getting ever closer.🙂🙂🙂 I’ve not charged at a public charger, even once, this year - and only once, overnight using a granny charger, at a house where I was visiting. I was quite happy to pay better-than-tesla rate for that over-night charge (better for the money to go somewhere more needy, than one of the really expensive CPOs). Over-night charging at a supercharger would be very little more expensive than most home charging during the daytime peak rates. Both of those are still far cheaper, per mile, than burning polluting fossils.
Sandbach North would be a good place to charge when I go from Norfolk to the Northwest to visit family. But ZapMap have been showing all chargers at Sandbach northbound as closed for more than a year. Did you check the Northbound?
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Glad to hear someone who knows and understands electrical principles and explains these principles very well, keep it up Dave , well done!
Great video as usual Dave. As a ev potential buyer in January here I find all the videos very informative. What I did notice the past 3-4 days whilst travelling down to York and back the the chargers where very busy and scotch corner had queues .
Thanks Dave. I enjoy all of your blogs and I find them very useful as I got my first ev back in September 2024 on a 74 plate and still rather new to the understanding on how EV and charging works.
fantastic to see upgrades to the changing network. I'm not in a position to get an electric vehicle yet but when i can at least the public charging network would have caught up a bit. Thanks Dave !
Jolly good news, mate! 🎉😊
Love the channel btw Dave. Always watch immediately
Thanks Dave, helpful for us disabled.
The Tesla Superchargers at Frankley Services on the Southbound M5 have a wide bay. Jonas & Dave have shown it on a few videos but not pointed it out
Great explanation for how charging should now be in the way of payments etc. I totally agree with you on picking up the charge cables if they had been left on the floor. Also, I have found several chargers not working, so a quick phone call to the number and they often do a reboot and it works. A good idea to call to advise of missing parts such as the holder.
Please keep telling people to avoid the 79p chargers as many other options are now available as you point out in your monthly pricing roundups.
Perhaps we should all phone the helpline and say "There appears to be a problem with the pricing..."
All day... Every day 😁
~13:00 Probably would be best, along with calling, to loop the cable over the top of the tombstone, not just leave it on the concrete.
That would make it difficult for wheelchair users to use.
@@DJBaldPaul ?? It was more or less broken anyway, at least for that cable. IAC you could grab the cable at a lower place and pull it down if you wanted. But I don't know why you would.
Very informative. Thank you.
I saw at Franklin, while I was on the Tesla chargers, two numpties parked in the gridserv diasbled bays charging!
Good example of the progress from Electric Highway to Gridserve takeover and then update.
Good news updates Dave.
I do like the gridserve chargers. Very simple, usually good charge speeds, and becoming very popular. Usually a good layout too. I particularly like the new Stevenage one. A brilliant setup. But we do need a regular user discount, beyond the 5% please.
5:45 Tesla uses 480V to keep the equipment and design standard as much as possible with the USA where 480 V/3 phase is what is used for industrial and commercial applications
It’ll also run at lower current for any given power output - until it gets to the car , where the current and voltage will be dependent on the actual battery requirements.
Thanks Dave for the heads up on free charging on Christmas day from grid serve. It was free when you use the app.
How easy are the low down contactless readers to use for tall people with dodgy backs? Not sure I could bend low enough to be able to read that little screen.
..ahhh wonderful new shiny and slick charging infrastructure major upgrades. Not really being used much. But why?
£0.79/kWh.
Ah! Now I understand.
exactly 29kW/h charging and 79p. I don't even consider Gridserve, BP, Ionity etc because of the price. Indeed I even ditched my Ionity subscription because it was cheaper at Tesla without a sub.
Dave a quick update, 400v is the harmonised three-phase voltage in the UK - the voltage having been standardised across Europe 22 years ago, before which the UK was baselined at 415v and Europe at 380v. This is a nominal voltage with the tolerance range being anywhere between 360v to 440v.
The 480v is included as a transformer tap these days to support American made power equipment (although the US three-phase supply can vary from 208v to 480v). However, in the UK these will operate at 50Hz rather than 60Hz, so will need to be uprated as the total voltage per cycle will be higher in the UK.
Sandbags North would be a good place to charge when I go from Norfolk to the Northwest to visit family. But ZapMap have been showing all chargers at Sandbach northbound as closed for more than a year. Did you check the Northbound?
Morning dave
Who said chargers are always busy, you can never get a charge?! Looked empty to me.
They're empty because none are working of course! 😉 #EVBingo
I use Sandbach all the time, it’s a good location for charging.
Great to see, apart from the rip off pricing !
You mention the northbound chargers.... are you sure in saying there are 6 gridserve 350k on the northbound?? Last time i was there northbound didn't, not shown on Zap Map either... no decent chargers at any services M6 northbound through Cheshire. Last time i was there you had to use the services vehicle bridge to get to the better chargers on the southbound.
Higher voltage, lower current, less heat.
Yes, but heat generated is not actually dependent on the voltage. Heat produced depends on the current squared, whatever the voltage might be.
Why don’t all makers use 800V architecture? Is it simply a cost issue or is it more complicated than that?🤔
R&D time/cost and platform engineering, plus it's a price point differentiator. Kia/Hyundai reserve 800v for their premium models for example, with the Kia EV9 and EV6 being 800v and the EV3 and EV5 (and forthcomming EV4) being 400v architectures.
For Tesla, it's because they began the whole thing at a mass scale, and they faced a ton of opposition even going as high as 400V at the time. For the legacy automakers, it's just their business model. Where they provide lower end features for their lower end products, even though 800V is cheaper to manufacture than 400V. They don't want to be selling an 800V vehicle for under $30,000 since that would really hurt the sales of their higher end, costlier vehicles.
@@junehanzawa5165 - yes and no. The battery wiring on 800v can be a thinner guage as less current is required to be carried. However, the battery parallel/series setup for 800v differs, the on board charge controllers and BMS's differ as well as the motors and they use high power capacity battery cells (i.e. more expensive), as the charge rate is much faster at 800v. For example, the 400v 81.4kWh EV3 will charge 0 to 100% in 50 minutes (at a max of 150kW), whilst the 800v EV6 84kWh battery will do the same 0 to 100% in 28 minutes (at a max of 260kW). The EV6 splits the 84kWh pack into two 800v 42kWh ones and charges both at 130kWh in parallel (as the packs are smaller with fewer cells they have to be more costly higher power rated cells). Also, when charging at 400V chargers (such as on Tesla chargers) the EV6 uses additional electronics to step up the voltage to 800v to charge the batteries.
The additional and uprated electronics (the EV6 uses expensive silicon carbid mosfets for example), higher spec batteries and specialist motors make 800v platforms more expensive than 400v ones to produce, on top of which some mechanism for supporting 400v only charging (a boost circuit or battery-splitting like in the Taycan and Cybertruck) has to be implmented.
Can I charge my Tesla by parking over 2 bays?
Yes, that's my new plan at V2 sites. A wrong sider gets to reserve both bays and gets the full 150kW, why should I split it?!
We were at a 20 bay V2 site in France, I was the only car there, until a French guy pulled onto the adjacent stall, splitting power. Unbelievable! 🤷
They should use those 50/60kW for ChaDeMo, and not waste a space on high speed chargers on a 50kW charging EV its own manufacturer never cared to support.
Also, for DC charging, the charger is NOT inside the EV. That's only true for AC charging where the vehicle converts the AC to DC. On DC, the charger itself does the conversion and provides DC directly. This is why DC Fast Chargers are so expensive compared to L2 chargers.
Be interesting to see how all these chargers provide power when they’re all on. I wonder what the KVA rating of the step down transformers are on this site. I estimate there is a 500kVA (1.8m x 1.2 x 0.9) transformer in the cabinet. Which means it can only supply a maximum of 100Amps per charger . If all chargers had empty EVs on them the power would be disturbed evenly at a charge rate
Strange that we talked to the installation engineers while it was being built and they said there was plenty of power to supply full power to each charger. Sorry, but I will go with the installation engineers facts instead of your guesses
@ then why did the BMW charge at 60kWh when the Batterry would be in its optimal charging zone charging from 20% when there was only 2 cars on charge. These chargers are probably throttled to 80kWh because of the size of the transformer in the box. Dave next time your on location the kVA rating will be on a label on the outside of the cabinet. But the size of the transformer is proportional to the power output. It’s not a very big cabinet so it can’t have a very big transformer inside and the BMW charging rate supports this. The BMW in shot should have been charging at 150kWh and reached full charge in 20 to 30 minutes it was charging at an average rate of 60kWh. Funny that with so few cars on charge.
At the size of the container 'shed' and minaturisation of switchgear these days there are 5000kVA units that would fit in that space these days. Plus the charger cabinets appear to be fairly large units, with one per charge point device, that could acommodate an internal battery for peak charging.
So in short speculating what the site power rating and charging capacity on the basis of an image is pretty meaningless.
@ it’s the size of the green transformer unit. You can’t shrink a transformer. There will have been a calculation by the utility company based on cost and probability and the green transformer locker that feeds the AC to the chargers looks about 1.8 m high and 2m wide so have a look and see what the biggest transformer you can fit in the box. If you look at the BMW it averaged 60kWh charging from about 20 to 100% if the charge was 25kWh at 98% it probably didn’t get any where near the 150kWh charge rate that this car is allegedly capable of charging at. This is another example of you expect 230 miles in 20 minutes and get 120 to 160 miles in 39minutes.
@@tobycolin6271 - yes aware, it's the large 'shed' style container behind the smaller brown fire hydrant 'shed'. The size of the green container would fit most of today's 1MVA to 5MVA pad mounted transformers. These sheds tend to be used it tight spaces with nearby pedestrian access, where a chainlink fence and separation space would take up too much area or would be an eyesore.
One cannot project based on one car's current charge screen status, the site could have been busier earlier in the charge cycle but cleared out as Dave started to film with the BMW not getting the full power requsted till later in the charge sessions.
Or perhaps the site is partially provisioned, happens quite a bit these days due to DNO bureaucratic process delays. As this site has two pre-existing fast and one slow charger, the site's supply agreement might have reflected that plus any forward provision (likely fast/rapid given the sites age) put forward by Electric Highway at the time of the original install. A new request to the DNO could have been put forward to uprate the site for ultra-rapids and is going through the process. There are a fair number of sites where this is happening, which is why the government put forward new policy a few days ago to speed up the connection process. The new ultra-rapids could have been installed on the previous sites electricity provision, with an uprated transformer and ultra-rapid chargers waiting for the supply upgrade to go live; perhaps assisting to accelerate the request process by collecting data on usage (I believe active major routes requests get priority processing).
Anyone explain why the BMW that is on charge has only charged at an average of 60kWH. Dave tells us that it has charged 39kwh in 39 minutes averaging 60kWh. It was still charging at 24kWh at 98% there’s no way the charger delivered the 150kW that this car is capable of charging at. 20 to 80% 231 miles of charge is achievable in 20 minutes on a 150kWH these chargers aren’t delivering that with 33% occupancy.
As your other post on the same subject:
One cannot project based on one car's current charge screen status, the site could have been busier earlier in the charge cycle but cleared out as Dave started to film with the BMW not getting the full power requsted till later in the charge sessions, at which point the car's battery state of charge had ramped down the 24kW at the 98% as shown on the screen.
Or perhaps the site is partially provisioned, happens quite a bit these days due to DNO bureaucratic process delays. As this site has two pre-existing fast and one slow charger, the site's supply agreement might have reflected that plus any forward provision (likely fast/rapid given the sites age) put forward by Electric Highway at the time of the original install. A new request to the DNO could have been put forward to uprate the site for ultra-rapids and is going through the process. There are a fair number of sites where this is happening, which is why the government put forward new policy a few days ago to speed up the connection/provisioning process. The new ultra-rapids could have been installed on the previous sites electricity provision, with an uprated transformer and ultra-rapid chargers waiting for the supply upgrade to go live; perhaps assisting to accelerate the request process by collecting data on usage (I believe active major routes requests get priority processing). This would mean the site is currently supply limited with respect to charging capability.
@GruffSillyGoat if that’s the case don’t put the 300 or 150kWh marketing on the chargers. this is why lots of people with EVs are un happy the sales and marketing of both the car manufacturers and charging infrastructure are not delivering the charging performance expected. Both this new charging station and the car should have charged at 150kWh according to the marketing. But the actual average charge rate is 60kWh. It’s not what is expected and one of the reasons as more people are dependent on the public network more people are dissatisfied.
A 5 MVA transformer is about 2m nigh and 2m wide and 2.2 to 2.4 m deep they fit mainly in chained fence installations in the open air or buildings about the size of a double garage.
Let’s hold the installation to account pop a EV at its optimal batterry charge point and see what rate of charge these new installations are actually doing. Better still we could get say 4 to 6 EVs to plug in and see what it’s actually like on a busy day. If the charge providers are advertising one thing and delivering another then we should be informed. That would be proper there is no point in 150kWh if with one car and five free bays you can only deliver 60kWh average.
What are you going on about, these chargers have no charge rate marketing on them, they display the rate available on their screen and in the Gridserve app based on conditions at the time.
EV owners are aware that local conditions vary, which is why Zapmap states the rates as 'upto'. This is one reason why the recent regulations places open data (OCPI based) requirements on chargers so such data is available to EV owners, such real time data is now accessible to sites like Zapmap and could even be integrated with the cars navigation when locating chargers of a certain power level when out and about.
@ just look at the video Dave starts his video showing the old 50KWh chargers then at 3.11 goes on to show us the bank of 6 shiny new 150kWh chargers. At 4.29 shows us the tiny cabinet with the 415v transformer about the size you expect a 500kVA transformer to reside in next to the 6 150kW chargers. At the end of the video he shows us that the BMW has taken on board 39kWh of charge at a rate of 1kWh per minute and is finishing its charge at 24kWh. There is only one other vehicle on charge and so you would have expected the BMW to have charged at a much higher rate. The BMW according to the marketing can charge 10 to 80% in 35 minutes (which is an average charge rate of 95kWh) this charger delivered a much lower rate and this is the reason charge times are longer than expected and people like me experience dissatisfaction with EVs using public chargers. On average in my experience just like the car in the video it takes twice as long to charge than we were led to believe. The charge bays aren’t even fully occupied and normally you see even less charge availability when they are full. Which goes back to my original observation tiny transformer footprint servicing a lot of chargers how big is it and what’s the site capacity.
@ that’s not what is said in the video 6 new shiny 150kW chargers on this side and power supplied to the 6 chargers on the other side plus the existing chargers and site demands. Anyway it’s a lot of KVAs. The BMW in the shot should average approximately 100kWh charging it was averaging 60kWh and this is similar to what I’ve experienced it seems to take twice as long to charge than you expect.
Lol the lorry park at Sandbach is rubbish, i never stop there, Keele is much better
Not the first time you've been a bit off but the first time I've mentioned it 🙃, for DC Chadamo/CCS2 the car does not have an onboard charger, that is all managed by the charger/cabinet, the car tells the charger what it's requirements are and the charger gives the car as many amps as it's able to (upto the cars max) directly into the battery, I believe you are mixing up the AC and DC charging processes 👍
I thought that they still (even though DC) still go via the BMS and not the internal charger? The BMS sorts out balancing of cells etc.
@@salan3 That ‘etc’ includes all the charging/discharging requirements of the battery depending on battery temperature (high or low), maximum current curve, cell/battery voltage and probably a few others.
It seems Dave is seeking to simplify things for his audience and explain how he understands chargers work, introducing his own terminology at the same time. He should really caveat this is his own way of describing things else may cause confusion.
With DC the role of 'charger' is split between the car - which has a demand side charge controller and battery management system - and the charger cabinet, which has a supply side charge controller and variable voltage/current power supply. The cabinet is more akin to the 'charger' meaning we're used to with mobile phones or 12v battery chargers.
Whats more since most chargers are now part of a smart grid system, the electricity supply grid can also dynamically instruct the charger cabinet to vary the current drawn to balance local energy demand levels.
In effect there is a constant communication exchange between the grid, the charger cabinet and the car as to the level of voltage and current available, supplied and requested, respectively.
Dave is just simplifying things to what he believes suits a more digestable description for his videos.
@oliver90owner All the bms's I have used in charging ccts do that and they are usually in the battery assy.
@GruffSillyGoat no it's Dave thinking he's an expert on the subject when, in fact, he gets a lot of what he says wrong.
Do you ever research anything you spout out ?
BMW’s cleanest and greenest 3 Series ever has just completed a record-breaking journey from the UK to Munich and back - on one tank of fuel.
Filled up at the Channel Tunnel, the new BMW 320d EfficientDynamics Saloon made it to Munich, then as far as Lille on the return leg - a staggering total of 1,013 miles on a single tank of fuel - before needing to be refuelled.
To put it in a UK geographic context, the distance achieved would have meant being able to drive from Land’s End to John O’Groats, and still having 200 miles range left in the tank.
This was in 2010.
So whats your point? How does that relate to this video? A Horse and Cart can do 1000 miles if you put enough hay in the cart. Would leave an awful lot of horse manure behind it too.
Fuel consumption causes serious diseases. Have you learned nothing in recent years?
I can send you a pic of my car pulling 267kw
I was on the M25 in the UK for 2 Hours on Boxing Day 4- Lane Motorway I was Courting EV Cars and there where Thousands of Car and i Counted 15 EVS in 2 HRS
The PEOPLE who wanted a EV have Now BOUGHT one it's CONVECTING the REST of CARS BUYERS to buy EVS and WELL there NOT ??
Ha ha, maybe EV drivers are more sensible - and drive at less-busy times?
Perhaps you and they will be persuaded by FSD? 'Black Tesla' is one of the early You Tube recipient/testers of software {only 6 or so of them). He has several videos of the new software which went on general release to the newest cars before Christmas. His video 'Tesla's FSD 13.2.2 First Impressions Drive' gives a flavour of what is coming.. If that doesn't convince you then watch the ones in the heavy rain and traffic in the centre of New York. The future is bright, the future is FSD.
The affordable EVs are only just beginning to arrive. Do your experiment again in a couple of years.
EV cars only make up 3.6% of all cars on UK roads. EV vans make up 1.4%. Both are falling in numbers. The incentive for business users is wiped out by the eye wateringly expensive, ridiculously unreliable charge network. Private buyers aren't buying them in enough numbers. Because of cataclysmic depreciation most private buyers are buying used which isn't helping new sales. That's why lots of manufacturers are on the verge of bankruptcy.
@@Un-Apologetic The reason why legacy car companies are struggling is because they ignored the writing on the wall re climate change, etc. The percentage of EV cars will most certainly balloon after 2030.🙂🙂🙂
The last thing someone in a wheelchair wants is to be turning up to chargers that don't work.
79p = The EV experiment killer.
You're flogging a dead horse Dave.
Yea, long journeys in an EV are expensive
@@sargfowler9603 When I am told this I always ask a simple question. How many Long journeys did you drive last year, or the year before. What does you ICE car cost per mile/
How often in reality did you exceed the range of most current EVs in one day? My own EV , a humble 62kw LEAF , is good for a journey within a 100 mile radius without needing to charge away from home. Or of course on a 200+ mile journey I only have to top up with enough to get home.
For some an EV does not yet have the range for their life on the road, but for the majority of drivers, who have a commute of less than 100 miles, or who drive to the supermarket 20 miles away once a week. an EV charged at home is very cost effective.
Got to agree.. EV sales are slowing and the rhetoric is changing from “poor EV infrastructure” to “to expensive compared to petrol /diesel“ and that is true. EV sales will stall until prices come down for a) those that can’t charge from home or don’t want the expense of a home charger installation and b) EV depreciation for none lease or company scheme buyers is not so wild and/or c) interest rates drop for used EVs.
‘Just my observation’… happy new year !
@@solentbumyour points raised are correct, there is however a segment of the population that is often overlooked and that is we pensioners. I bought an EV convinced it would be cheap motoring and great for my desire to do UK & European road trips at leisure and on a pensioner’s budget (state pension only being received), however the reality is it’s costing much more than my previous diesel SUV, the insurance is 50% more also, So, I for one and I’m sure not alone would dearly (no pun intended) would like to see these costs come down, that said I understanding the scale of investment involved and the need to recoup some if the cost, however I’m convinced that even Tesla owners would charge at nine Tesla charging stations if prices were competitive.
Happy motoring..
@@solentbum Spot on Sir/Madam. These individuals who spout rubbish about EVs, and attempt to denigrate them, are actually few and far between. Same ones on several channels.
Always the same rubbish arguments of why EVs will fail. Wrong on all counts. 2030 for the exclusion of new ICE cars from the market (unless the government do a U-turn) is getting ever closer.🙂🙂🙂
I’ve not charged at a public charger, even once, this year - and only once, overnight using a granny charger, at a house where I was visiting. I was quite happy to pay better-than-tesla rate for that over-night charge (better for the money to go somewhere more needy, than one of the really expensive CPOs).
Over-night charging at a supercharger would be very little more expensive than most home charging during the daytime peak rates. Both of those are still far cheaper, per mile, than burning polluting fossils.
Sandbach North would be a good place to charge when I go from Norfolk to the Northwest to visit family. But ZapMap have been showing all chargers at Sandbach northbound as closed for more than a year. Did you check the Northbound?