Hearing Phil say "for a marine, at 15 points he's getting expensive" really ground my grognard gears. Kids these days don't know how good they have it - back in the day, we paid 15 points per marine and that didn't even come with a sergeant! And we had 1500 points as the standard army size, not 2k/3k! And went uphill to the local games workshop both ways! In the snow! With cardboard boxes for shoes! What was I talking about again? I can't remember.
15pts per marine?! Let me introduce you to 2nd edition, where marines were 30pts/model! Tactical squad starting at 300pts, a full army being three squads and a couple characters lol
There is another purpose for recon squads: ramming your enemy's entire army turn 1. Take the rhino, infiltrate, and use the scout move to close the distance. Then start ramming. Is it good? Probably not. Is it absolutely hilarious to infiltrate and scout 6 rhinos into your opponent's colon, then spend the whole first turn trying to ram all their infantry off the board? Yup. It's probably the cheapest way to make 6 units make morale tests in a single turn, too.
I actually like Breachers for 2 reasons: A) My regular opponents like to bring artillery, and breachers are more efficient against them (vs tactical squads with apothecaries as the artillery is usually scorpius' so no FNP); B) they are a Line unit that can bring Land Raider transports with no rites of war needed. Land Raiders are my favorite vehicle to build and paint, so I am aiming for an army that uses a lot of them.
Deathguard Breachers with the ability to move and shoot grav is very good. Mine always do work chipping off Dred wounds or vehicle HP. Access to a dedicated Proteus frees up HS slots.
Attaching a jump pack moritat is worth it for a large assault squad (the FAQ allows this despite bitter duty on the moritat). The assault squad now has scout and rad grenades.
Viewing landraiders as just a '200 point' expenditure is your problem. You have quad lasers, lascannons, heavy bolters, AV14, and the ability to literally take out tanks, support vehicles, dreadnoughts with it, then disgorging your despoilers into combat from the front... And you just view it as a '200 point expenditure for a 150 point squad' Bruh.
In the context of low value squads I think its a heavy investment mate, for higher value things I think it’s worth goes up in remaining a gun platform after the drop off If it’s just a troops squad it makes the tactical squads transport more likely to be shot at as it’s got the lascannons on (vs a rhino that a lot of the time are ignored) and has this juxtaposition between wanting to rock about getting places and wanting to be slow to fire everything I think there’s extra value if you do all av14 to give no soft targets
@BearfootMiniatures I agree on some points, but seeing it as a delivery system before a weapons platform is where you seem to be having the issue. I use Proteus and Rhinos in the same force. 2 proteus with 10 man squads and an apoth, and 2 rhinos with vets. The rhinos with vets get ignored, up until they deliver a melta bomb up a leviathans exhaust port. Why? Because there's an Av14 threat laying heat into a sicaran/leviathan/other transports that still holds its disgusting extra CC squad with shrapnel bolters that after pushing back an enemy advance can then deploy the squad to the objective, then continue to rush forwards to tarpit the enemy, giving me 3 and sometimes 4 whole turns of objective control. The price of a proteus, having more armour and equal destructive potential to a Sicaran WHILE holding a line squad? Worth it. Every. Single. Game.
I'd be curious to know how often Spite of the Legion is going off for most people. For me, it rarely seems to come up - I'm usually trying to pin targets for my more elite units than my Despoilers. Snipers aren't super common in my meta either so sergeants and apothecaries are usually present
0 times in 8 games, always have despoilers assaulting. Spite of the legion is absolute garbage. Giving malus to a unit because there isn't spite is horse crap.
Ive seen it go off a few times: not every time but they trade nicely with a character for dreads (the character to provide the bonk to the dread and the despoilers to be 10pt wounds) We always seem to see atleast one sniper squad in the meta here (not always on channel but in pickups) so that definitely increases the chances Certainly not a game turner on their own but its a nice cherry on top to have on the unit
It goes off against Dreadnoughts all the time, doesn't it? Problem is, dreads have too high T, WS, Sv, and W, so while 20 WE into a Contemptor would have 100 attacks on the charge, but still only do about 1.5 wounds to the thing.
My plasma support often does very little xD melta does work. Especially as im Raven Guard and infiltrating in a Rhino that also Scouts thanks to Corax....
I love melta for frying termies and the like I just find my opponents reverse out of melta range a lot, maaan I love plasma still, maybe I’m just selectively remembering times I’ve breached the hell out of squads
@BearfootMiniatures I'm much more biased as with Raven Guard getting that infiltrate, Scout and then moving so close that you can almost wrap the enemy vehicle... they can't get out of range 😆 plasma annoys me because of slow rolling for gets hot when in rapid fire range.
MKVII was deployed during the last bit of the Solar War and throughout the Siege of Terra, so fine for all legions present at least, and who knows who else had it thanks to Horus and Malcador shenanigans
not on mass but theres bits; I find my anger at mks of armour waning over time aswell, if its a high quality army/cool player/i can see effort put in thats such an importance to the game IMO
Hearing Phil say "for a marine, at 15 points he's getting expensive" really ground my grognard gears. Kids these days don't know how good they have it - back in the day, we paid 15 points per marine and that didn't even come with a sergeant! And we had 1500 points as the standard army size, not 2k/3k! And went uphill to the local games workshop both ways! In the snow! With cardboard boxes for shoes! What was I talking about again? I can't remember.
I remember those days
15pts per marine?! Let me introduce you to 2nd edition, where marines were 30pts/model! Tactical squad starting at 300pts, a full army being three squads and a couple characters lol
You forgot about paying for grenades.
There is another purpose for recon squads: ramming your enemy's entire army turn 1. Take the rhino, infiltrate, and use the scout move to close the distance. Then start ramming. Is it good? Probably not. Is it absolutely hilarious to infiltrate and scout 6 rhinos into your opponent's colon, then spend the whole first turn trying to ram all their infantry off the board? Yup. It's probably the cheapest way to make 6 units make morale tests in a single turn, too.
Ahhh the gentleman’s choice: if you see this happen in a bar rep know it’s come from here!
I actually like Breachers for 2 reasons: A) My regular opponents like to bring artillery, and breachers are more efficient against them (vs tactical squads with apothecaries as the artillery is usually scorpius' so no FNP); B) they are a Line unit that can bring Land Raider transports with no rites of war needed. Land Raiders are my favorite vehicle to build and paint, so I am aiming for an army that uses a lot of them.
Deathguard Breachers with the ability to move and shoot grav is very good. Mine always do work chipping off Dred wounds or vehicle HP. Access to a dedicated Proteus frees up HS slots.
Word bearers plasma support squad are great cause of Warpfire. Breaching + pinning > melta for me.
Attaching a jump pack moritat is worth it for a large assault squad (the FAQ allows this despite bitter duty on the moritat). The assault squad now has scout and rad grenades.
Viewing landraiders as just a '200 point' expenditure is your problem.
You have quad lasers, lascannons, heavy bolters, AV14, and the ability to literally take out tanks, support vehicles, dreadnoughts with it, then disgorging your despoilers into combat from the front...
And you just view it as a '200 point expenditure for a 150 point squad'
Bruh.
In the context of low value squads I think its a heavy investment mate, for higher value things I think it’s worth goes up in remaining a gun platform after the drop off
If it’s just a troops squad it makes the tactical squads transport more likely to be shot at as it’s got the lascannons on (vs a rhino that a lot of the time are ignored) and has this juxtaposition between wanting to rock about getting places and wanting to be slow to fire everything
I think there’s extra value if you do all av14 to give no soft targets
@BearfootMiniatures I agree on some points, but seeing it as a delivery system before a weapons platform is where you seem to be having the issue.
I use Proteus and Rhinos in the same force.
2 proteus with 10 man squads and an apoth, and 2 rhinos with vets.
The rhinos with vets get ignored, up until they deliver a melta bomb up a leviathans exhaust port.
Why?
Because there's an Av14 threat laying heat into a sicaran/leviathan/other transports that still holds its disgusting extra CC squad with shrapnel bolters that after pushing back an enemy advance can then deploy the squad to the objective, then continue to rush forwards to tarpit the enemy, giving me 3 and sometimes 4 whole turns of objective control.
The price of a proteus, having more armour and equal destructive potential to a Sicaran WHILE holding a line squad?
Worth it.
Every.
Single.
Game.
Thanks for the video guys!!
I like a Herald with a shotgun and Charnabal glaive or Maul. Concussive test at -1 LD. Helps even the fight vs vets and chew through tacs.
Hell yeah. Can't get enough troops. 👌
The backbone of the legions and massive part of the artworks!
nice insights guys, keep it coming
thank you for the video!
Cheers for watching mate!
Grav pistols in Assault Squads? I think the only work around is the Techmarine with Jump Pack, Relentess and Grav gun.
Shame on your squad tax evasion! Pay the Emperor's and/or Warmaster's due!
I'd be curious to know how often Spite of the Legion is going off for most people. For me, it rarely seems to come up - I'm usually trying to pin targets for my more elite units than my Despoilers. Snipers aren't super common in my meta either so sergeants and apothecaries are usually present
0 times in 8 games, always have despoilers assaulting.
Spite of the legion is absolute garbage. Giving malus to a unit because there isn't spite is horse crap.
Ive seen it go off a few times: not every time but they trade nicely with a character for dreads (the character to provide the bonk to the dread and the despoilers to be 10pt wounds)
We always seem to see atleast one sniper squad in the meta here (not always on channel but in pickups) so that definitely increases the chances
Certainly not a game turner on their own but its a nice cherry on top to have on the unit
@@BearfootMiniatures needing snipers to proc the effect just makes it a tax for the unit.
It goes off against Dreadnoughts all the time, doesn't it? Problem is, dreads have too high T, WS, Sv, and W, so while 20 WE into a Contemptor would have 100 attacks on the charge, but still only do about 1.5 wounds to the thing.
@@andrewbakescakes9684 yea Ive tried overwhelming dreadnoughts with despoilers before. it did not end well for the despoilers....
No way I'm gonna put a power axe on a sergeant. Worst of both worlds. Power sword yes though. 6+ rending let's go.
My plasma support often does very little xD melta does work. Especially as im Raven Guard and infiltrating in a Rhino that also Scouts thanks to Corax....
I love melta for frying termies and the like I just find my opponents reverse out of melta range a lot, maaan I love plasma still, maybe I’m just selectively remembering times I’ve breached the hell out of squads
@BearfootMiniatures I'm much more biased as with Raven Guard getting that infiltrate, Scout and then moving so close that you can almost wrap the enemy vehicle... they can't get out of range 😆 plasma annoys me because of slow rolling for gets hot when in rapid fire range.
More please
Audio far too quiet on this one. Can barely hear you in parts 😢
Will have a look at it now mate, see if I can do anything on RUclips aside!
@@BearfootMiniatures maybe you should keep it down after hearing what Phil thinks of breacher design! 😂😂
I agree with this, mic seems to be an issue a little bit.
Am I the only one that doesn’t see the value in despoilers even in combat armies?
They’re sort of like marmite tbh, it’s love or hate them I think
Heavy Chainswords need something like rending 6+. Then Despoilers would actually stand out because they could reliably shave wounds off of big stuff.
yeah but mk7 wasn't in HH at all. So there is a no-no there.
MKVII was deployed during the last bit of the Solar War and throughout the Siege of Terra, so fine for all legions present at least, and who knows who else had it thanks to Horus and Malcador shenanigans
not on mass but theres bits; I find my anger at mks of armour waning over time aswell, if its a high quality army/cool player/i can see effort put in thats such an importance to the game IMO
Power weapons are cheaper and more reliable for troops.