In Game of Thrones (the TV show), "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come" are Mance Rayder's last words (S5E1 final scene), and also the second-to-last thing Arthur Dane says (S6E3 about 15 minutes in).
I'm pretty sure the Dayne = Mance theory is true but instead of doing anything with it D&D just gave a subtle nod and threw another good plotline in the trash
+Rebecca R. Reus that was one of the very first things that we found that had us thinking there was a connection! We read the books together so we noticed stuff like that when the other person was reading. Haha
They weren't murdered, they've always been believed to die in combat against Ned Stark and his companions. Since they died in battle, nobody questioned it.
Thank you...people who try to say Mance is Rhaegar completely ignore that GRRM said that Rhaegar was cremated...he doesn't lie when he answers questions...he refuses to answer questions that are too poignant, or says something super cryptic, but doesn't lie
I was a Mance = Rhaegar guy for a while, only because I had a really strong feeling that there was A LOT more to Mance than we knew so far. Admittedly, Rhaegar never quite felt right, but it was the only thought I had, and came mostly from the idea that the "King beyond the wall" was really "The King, beyond the wall." Mance as Arthur Dayne makes a lot more sense, especially when they walk us through the scene in the training yard where Mance-as-Rattleshirt schools the shit out of Jon....
joshmo141x That was what got me too. The rest of it is speculation. Good speculation, logical and perceptive but speculation. That fight was cold hard fact. Jon got totally schooled, and that doesn't just happen. The pause on the sword, is a give away. the otherworldly strength and speed, the way Jon could never get in a solid blow. That's all prodigy level master swordsmen stuff. That isn't stuff you learn or develop in the wild or at the wall
Richard Bowen ehh it's when Sansa first tries to run with her little candle trick, which Old Nan told her And then whapoowwww she's face to face with a flayed old Nan, and a smiling Ramsay.
There’s actually parallels to this theory in fire and blood when Maegor’s kings guard who is sent to the wall for breaking their vows and going to Jehaerys’ side and then one declared himself king beyond the wall but the wildlings killed him.
+GerryBolger Thanks for sticking in there long enough to get to that part. We knew it was a little long there but thought it wouldn't drive the point home without the whole context of what was going on
There’s a funny contrast with Oswell went being The Halfhand with him being definitely the most forgotten of the three kingsguard at the tower and Jon knows who he is immediately without ever having met him. But Mance Jon can’t pick him out in his own tent and Arthur is the most famous swordsman ever, and definitely the most focused on at the tower.
This theory still makes even more sense with Jon being the son of Rheagar. As a member of the Kings guard Arthur is sworn to protect the royal family. Arthur is Rheagar best friend and Rheagar was obsessed with the prophecy. Which is why he married Leanna in the first place. Rheagar would definitely want Authur to plant himself as a wildling and get them to come together for the battle against the dead.
God damn it. I had a lot of these same theories before I saw the show. Rekindling those memories makes me think I was wrong to doubt. GRR Martin is a master troll either way. Subscribed.
You both helped me through a really really dark time in my life. Hearing y'all say that you were concerned that I couldn't see your live stream today got me way more emotional than I thought it could or would. Probably way too much information but I was addicted to drugs and homeless from 2025 to 2017 all I had to distract myself from my horrifying reality (besides what was currently making my reality so unbarable) were my A Song of ice and Fire books and your channel, voices, theories, personalities, jokes, and opinions. I'll have 1 year on Saturday off that fucking bullshit and now I am capable of also being...true...to my word! You'd think that would be the highlight of my week but you're videos always are! Hope the lady's mother and Quinn are both ok. I'd say 7 blessings but screw the septons and the maesters!
I feel like you guys are reading a whole different book series than me! Great insight and I love how deep you dig into the backgrounds of some of the characters with smaller roles to play. Awesome channel!!
Wow! I gotta give it to you, Order of the Green Hand: You truly delve deep into the text, and extrapolate so much. Your reading is just as creative as George's writing. I really hope that George's narrative really is as labrynthine and interconnected as you believe it to be. I can't believe how much I missed in my reading of the texts. I am humbled and awed. Yours is truly the only cast worthy of viewership in the realm of Thrones. Keep up the amazing work!
Also the height difference between the 'present' Mance and Tormund are kinda being hidden by perspective and terrain elevation differences in the flashback sequence. Which is kind of strange for the producers to do if they were just brand new characters that didn't need to match a precedent.
Thank you for really really good video! You guys work hard to find the true meaning of it all. This video is a good example for what kind of writer Martin is. The show and the books are more and more different. I have never red before so interesting book series like The Song of Ice and Fire. George R.R Martin is one of a kind writer. Writer who has created hole new type of telling the tale. I just can't wait for your next video! Maybe I have to read the books again but slow motion 😁 there's just so much going on...
He couldn't be. Squire Dalbridge was the squire to King Jaehaerys II Targaryen, how reigned from 259 to 262 and was born in 225. So Dalbridge was probably born in the 240's. Brynden was send to the wall in 233 and left for his cave in 252.
80 AT LEAST. Bloodraven and the Ravensteeth who volunteered left in 233, 60+years before A Game Of Thrones. If Dalbridge was 20 or so....do the math. Its obvious whoever came up with this dumb theory didn't. BTW what happened to his Weirwood bow?
Looked up the chances for this being true - and it is entirely plausible. Well no one said the tooth had to be a member of the original company setup during the first blackfyre rebellion in 196, Bloodraven left for the wall in 233 after the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. That is 37 years after the red grass field. When bloodraven disappeared on that ranging beyond the wall in 252 he ought to have been round 70-80 years old. Clash of kings takes place in 299 and if our ravens teeth was rather young (15?) back in 252 he would be around today, making it possible, but he would need to be in really good shape for his age (round 80). Realise this is a very late answer, haha. :)
I thought the theory was a bit wild, but after watching the videos the details about Mance and Qhorin are quite interesting. It's however strange that nobody would have recognise them as they would have been famous and there were Lords and common people from all around the world that may have recognised them. I am thinking about Stannis with Mance, but I am sure there would have been lot of more cases. A funny thing if this theory is true is that Mance sang the Dornishman's wife in front of Jon and his wife.. being himself a Dornishman. Another fact not mentioned is that Mance Rayder prooves to be an excellent warrior beating Jon up in a training session, which would match with Arthur Dayne's ability.
Your videos on Game of Thrones theories are by far the most fascinating I've seen. Please do a video on the children of the forest and the whitewalkers!!! It's my favorite mystery of the series
+buoe 12 thank you so much! We are leading up to that with the wars to come series, which will lead us directly into the COF/white walkers. Newest video should be done very soon (part 2 of wars to come). :)
Apart from Howland Reed, everyone else is dead. We know for a certainty that Willam Dustin died, coz Barbrey just hates Ned and has sworn that she won't let Ned's bones pass through and make it through Winterfell. Howland Reed "saved" Ned, so yeah apart from him, everyone, Martyn Cassel, Ethan Glover, Theo Wull, Mark Ryswell, is dead.
@@subarnosinha8042 I actually don't think Dustin died. Ned is not that kind of guy who wouldn't bring bones of his friends to his widow. Maybe Ned couldn't do this because Dustin is still alive.
@@jirifridrich8382 If he was alive, he'd have been brought back in the story by now, like JonCon. We're past the point where George will introduce new characters or reveal the "presumed dead" to be alive, IMO. Plus, we haven't been given any reason to think Willam Dustin's alive. But I may be wrong.
After every one of your videos, I realize how much I miss when reading each novel. It seems like every sentence has a dual meaning. Thank you for all of your time and effort. It's just amazing!
The Order of the Green Hand haha I'm glad! and well part 3 may be a bit delayed because I've just been binge watching you guys lol xD but nuh your vids are also getting me pumped up to do more sleuthing myself. Keep it up! I'm subbed :)
Also, we were just having a friendly debate on where you are from based on your accent and I don't remember you mentioning it in your videos so we decided that the only way to settle it is to ask
Eric Lupercio I get why you like Preston, his theories are really interesting and it's always great to watch a channel that swims away from the current. I have to admit though I do sometimes find his theories erring slightly too far on the side of tin foil.
Thank you soo much for your post - This is day two of my binge watching of your channel - the theories and storytelling and clues that you all are telling is just awesome... I love listening while crocheting... You all are the next best thing to the audio books... After this - what will you be doing??? any clues.???
Really interesting. I'd forgotten all the Qoren/Jon dialogue. Now when I think of Jon killing Qoren it reminds me of Azor Ahai driving his sword thru Nissa Nissa. Neither Jon or Azor wanted to kill the person but they had to. Melisandre, " I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor only shows me Snow." Hmmmm. More than a coincidence that Mance & Arthur use the same "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come." That's a unique thing to say. GRR tipped off D&D? You raise a good point.
I hadn't thought of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa there. For some reason that scene always makes me think of Obi Wan letting Darth Vader kill him so he can become more powerful. I have no idea why...something about a mentor (and Qhorin only mentored him for like 2 chapters) letting the apprentice kill him for the greater good or something
After Darth strikes Obi down his robe just falls in a pile on the floor and his Lightsabre on top of it. I don't know enough of Star Wars canon but what ever happened to his Lightsabre? I'm sure Darth wouldn't leave it there, do you know if it ever surfaces again? I can't remember.
Hi Ricardo! You were our first, and for awhile, only fan. Making you one of our sole motivators to keep at it. We were actually just thinking we need to reach out to you, so I am glad you commented. Thanks for the support, because we might've quit if it weren't for you. thanks again-
so we have the Wall Line (Night's Watch), the Neck Line (Green Hand), and the Sword of the Morning making an advanced line beyond the wall with the Wildlings or just filling the 1st line of defence against The Winter. The North remembers the Starks, but the Wildlings remember the Winter, which is coming
Some hints about Arthur Dayne in Jon's chapter with Qhorin: Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together. Dawn had broken when Jon stepped from the tent beside Qhorin Halfhand. They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star.
wow bravo you've found and pointed out some amazing stuff, after years of reading the books and watching various theory vids i never throught i could be blown away by new information and theories. i am now hitting the sub button and queing up your other vids
Thank you so much...we have a suggested order to view playlist if you are interested...our videos tend to build off of each other and definitely make more sense in that order
already watched your whole playlist really well done vids i love your theory crafting that's both well put together and thought provoking through-out all your vids
I think Ned agreed to the KGs plan after howland convinced him its the only way to defeat the war with the children which resulted in the KG and Ned killing Neds bannermen cause they didnt believe them. Thats why Ned has nightmares he feels guilt about killing his men
OK, I've binge watched all of your videos and haven't really commented yet so far because I just want to keep an open mind. If true, and you're very convincing, this is mind blowing, "wheel breaking", stuff here. You are flipping the "establishment" on it's end. The research you're doing and the dots your connecting is incredibly impressive. I am starting to drink your koolaid, I can't wait to see what your collaboration with The Don Tony Teflon is all about! Bravo!
Thank you...the collab is going to take us a couple weeks...Tony was at the Wolfs Den a few nights ago and this video is going to be epic, but when we started putting our theories together the project grew to the point that it's going to take a week or two, maybe even three to put it all together and get it all right, but when it's done, it will be the most comprehensive children of the forest video that has been made
Interesting take and well thought out. Looking fwd to the remaining videos. Also, after re-reading a couple of the books it was interesting to note that no else had bother to quest why Mance would scale the wall to visit winterfel as he mentioned.
These videos are genius. The reason I love them is that you guys use direct evidence from the books to prove a theory. The main issue I have with most people who argue theories is that they make large amounts of assumptions based on what they want to see. In other words their overall theories are not correct cause they do not analyze the textual evidence in an informative and academic manner. I mean this is probably where the books are heading in my opinion. You guys use direct textual evidence to prove hypothesis's that have strong structure I found these video theories to be not only academic but highly professional.... Valar Morghulis
It explains why the washerwomen (wildings) ask Theon the whereabouts of the crypts of Winterfell. Abel, who is really Mance rayder, who is really Arthur dayne maybe knows Rhaegar left something down below.
so, I'm 5 years late on this, but if I may -- this is one of my favorite theories i had never thought of. I'm looking for more evidence pertaining to some theories while battling my Ice and Fire dependency and think you might like this one remember how in AGoT, GRRM uses a writing technique to foreshadow Littlefinger betraying Ned. Something like "...Joffrey sat atop the Iron Throne. Supported by Littlefinger, Ned..." to show how Joffrey was supported by Littlefinger before he made his move. fast forward to ASoS, Jamie 3: Jamie is fighting Brienne and starts reminiscing on who can defeat him in battle he says is "Gerold Hightower as well in his heyday and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber..." Hightower + Dayne = amongst the living Whent dead by this point I think you're right
I'd love to hear a podcast with you, your girlfriend, Alt Shift X, Preston Jacobs and Tony Teflon, that would be amazing and I guess we could throw in Red Team Review but he seems more focused on the show.
I'd love to hear just you guys and Preston. For my money the two best Ice & Fire channels there are...Love the Don Tony T but you guys are on another level...
Hi! thanks so much for watching and for the compliment! I am totally with you with the reorganizing of the letters in his name. I've spent an embarassing amount of time trying to make words from his name (and some others), but it is really cool. I think there is something to it. Look at Arstan Whitebeard- you can make Barristan. haha
If all of these became true you deserve a medal :p I think I'm losing some details with my translated books, it's never the same as reading on the original language... I will watch all your videos again, I feel i'm away back comparing with the other people commenting! Thanks a lot for this video and I can't wait to the next one!
thank you so much Alexandra...you are definitely not the first to comment about thinking that some of the details in the way he words things get lost when reading translated versions of the books
Ive always thought Quorin was warging Mormonts Raven. When the raven speaks, we know why it says every word- "snow", "jon snow", "king", etc. But when it says, "CORN", I always thought it was saying, "QHORIN". But we would just assume & hear, "corn". Even tho the bird doesnt even eat corn. Even in this video, when u guys say qhorins name, it sounds like youre saying corn.
And when the Halfhand walked away & left Jon alone to kill Ygrette, Jon didn't. & When he went to tell Quorin what happened, Quorin cut him off, & said, "I know". He could b a warg, watching from a bird or animal. We dont know much about the guy. But it'd b smart for him to watch mormonts bird, so he can keep an eye on the nights watch, from his ranging far beyond the wall. And, possibly for communicating with Mormont, assuming Mornont knows he can warg, which I don't believe he would. But, Mormont did know when they were going to meet Quorin beyond the wall, & some other information about Quorins whereabouts while they were en route.
I have to say: Bravo! I't's been a long time since i've heard of a new ground altering perspective on the series. I've heard of 'Mance isn't Mance' theories before (e.g. mance = rhaegar, see the channel 'James of Thrones), but this is indeed an interesting idea! And bravo on the production aswell! Very entertaining video! Looking foreward to more!
just read the arya chapters where she goes to the house of the black and white(AFFC) and the bran chapters(ADWD) when he meets bloodraven for the first time- i noticed in the bran chapters, the references to the cave being Black and White.then in the Arya chapters i noticed that when Arya sees the Waif she is struck by how big her eyes are-"dark eyes as big as saucers". i thought there were a lot of similarities in both.Bran even thinks he sees Arya but it turns out to be one of the children.Bran learns to use his sight and Aryas is taken away after they consume a (albeit different) white substance.are these parts of both stories happening at the same time? also the dish bran eats the paste from had "a dozen faces carved into it.that made me think about the many faced god.that got me thinking about all the faces the faceless men have in the house of black and white and the many faces of the weirwood trees in westeros.that got me thinking about bloodraven telling bran-"a thousand eyes,a hundred SKINS,wisdom as deep as the roots of ancient treess,greenseers. i cant wait for the videos about the children and the faceless men. my mind was blown watching these videos i can only imagine what it was like realising it yourselves.
Great observations...it can not be conclusively said if these chapters are happening at the same time but the waif is super creepy and her huge eyes popped out at us too...if you could contact us on Facebook or Twitter I'd be happy to continue this conversation with you but we haven't released a lot of our thoughts on this topic yet and I don't want to put them in our public comment section before we do
Thank you both so much for these informative video's. I usually have them playing in the background and many of my "GoT" maniac roommates love to here these perspectives. =)
+Silver Imp We thought about that a lot but decided he wasn't old enough. Also Gerold Hightower was shot in the hand with an arrow. Not missing 3 fingers. Don't worry. Our next video will reveal who we think Gerold Hightower really is
From ASoIaF wiki.... Around 280 AC/281 AC, Gerold was shot through the hand by Ulmer, an outlaw of the Kingswood Brotherhood, who went on to steal a kiss and some jewels from Princess Elia Martell of Dorne.
I am rewatching this and realizing that you pointed out something I thought the first time I read it in ACOK - the harvest moon eyes Jon sees. The first time I read it, I immediately thought they were COTF (familiar enough with ASOIAF prior to getting into the books enough to pick up on their appearance). Most people assume it was a shadowcat, but I agree with you, it was a COTF. I think they are evil and Bloodraven is their captive, and Bran will figure it out before chaos goes down in the heart of winter. Love your channel!!!!
I hadn't remembered/noticed this from the books, but hearing it, Mance's professed backstory makes *no* sense. Since when are wildlings allowed to take the black? The Watch is unspeakably racist, and one of Jon's assassins' grievances with him was his willingness to allow wildlings to take the black.
Earlier, however, a counter-argument occurred to me. While it does seem unlikely that Mance would be accepted at the wall as a wildling boy, it seems still more unlikely that no one would know for a fact that he hadn't been. Wouldn't there be some record of his existence (the lack of which would disprove his story)? Wouldn't someone have to remember him (such that people would call bullshit if no one did)? If no one else, wouldn't Maester Aemon have been at the wall around this time? It's inconceivable that he'd not know about a child being raised there, and therefore inconceivable that he'd not immediately know it was false. At the same time, there are other considerations similar to my original one. Since when does the watch have the resources or desire to care for an 8 year old child? Even if they valued his life, (and he's a wildling, so they shouldn't), they'd surely make arrangements for someone to care for him rather than care for him _themselves._ Also, did they slaughter his entire tribe? If not, did they not want him back? Why didn't he want to return to them? Was he an only child whose parents were both part of the party the watch killed? If they did slaughter his parents, why didn't Mance resent them? What was an 8 year old doing with a group that would incur the watch's wrath? As racist as the watch is, I'm not sure they'd slaughter a random group of wildlings for *no* reason. What was an 8 year old doing raiding? It seems like both Mance's story and the falsehood of it are impossible, which leaves me thoroughly stumped.
Can mance be arthur dayne if he doesn't have the purple/deep blue eyes? Isn't that a normal eye color for Dayne man/woman? Eddard Dayne have it, Ashara dayne had it aswell.
Hımm, by the way thanks for the videos, watching them has become one of my spare-time activies in the recent days, only activity maybe :) Greetings from Turkey :)
Do you think the tower of joy dream we're all metaphors? That Howland Reed actually did something to stab Ser Author Dayne in the back or another way to put it, he betrayed him, maybe accidentally. Ser Author Dayne and his men symbolically died that day and became other people?
In Melissandre's chapter, Mance Rayder says that he liked Tormund and that "the old fraud" likes him too. Maybe that's a nod that Tormund is not who he appears to be.
I have a few questions. Why wouldn't any of the three kingsguard insist on going with Rhegar's child? Why would all three commit to the cause of preparation for the war to come instead of continuing to upload the oath they already swore to? It isn't like they couldn't adjust the story in Essos to accommodate them. If anything, their presence might have actually helped to sell the story to Connington, even more than Ashara's presence would. With their witness they might not even need to lie to Connington, or the realm later. One or more of them being present for Aegon's invasion would make Aegon's claim more plausible to most in westros. Dayne, Whent, and Hightower have more reason to stick by the child, and few if any to go North and prepare for the war. What is their motivation? Even assuming they knew what was coming and what was at steak, what would be so convincing to all three of them to abandon their last charge, and commit the rest of their lives to prepare the North for the war to come instead of upholding their vows as Kingsguard?
i just read the jamie chapter in ASOS and when he has his dream about Rhaegar and the kingsguard. it reads "they were armoured all in snow it seemed to him,and ribbons of mist swirled back from there shoulders." i think that sentence confirms your theory about the Kingsgaurd for me."Armoured in snow",thats got to be hiding in the north.the ribbons of mist swirling back from their shoulders to reveal who the are,that sounds like a new identity, i cant remember seeing it mentioned in any of the vids(please forgive me if i missed it) but it would fit in a episode about about Jamie (hint hint) i forgot that when he had the dream his head was resting on the stump of a white tree that makes him think of Ned Starks heart tree.
Osha's statement in of itself isn't enough to warrant questioning Mance's identity, he claims he was born a Wildling and he may well have been but because he was taken in by the Night's Watch as a child that would make many perceive him more as a Crow than Wildling, and he didn't make an impact on the Wildlings until after he left the Night's Watch so it's a fair statement she made. As for him never tasting winter, Osha was born, raised and lived most of her life beyond the wall, Mance's life wasn't spent entirely beyond the wall. You really need more than Osha's word to springboard off in this direction with Mance's character, I'm not dispelling this theory entirely just that it's way too weak a piece of evidence to start off with.
Not just Osha. No one else mentions it either. She's the only wildling that mentions his backstory and wildlings would know the king beyond the wall's backstory. It seems impossible that wildlings wouldn't talk about the man who successfully declared himself their king and know who he is and what his story is. Qhorin is the only one who says he's wildling born. Mance doesn't even say it
Fair enough I see your logic there but I'm still not at all convinced that these characters are actually Arthur, Oswell & Gerold as you still haven't given a piece of evidence that's enough to sway me, overall you have a good argument and I will say that I don't think it's impossible for this theory of yours to actually come true.
I just watched Preston's Schemes of Qhorin videos so naturally my thoughts went back to your "The Wars To Come"-series. I looked up Qhorin in AWOIAF but didn't type Halfhand, so I was suggested Qhorin Halfhand, of course, and Qhorin Volmark, a member of the wider Hoare family. Qhorin, Qhored, Qhorwyn seem to be traditional names in this family. One member of this family, but not named in this tradition, was Harwyn Hardhand ("Ha..hand", anyone?) grandfather of Harren the Black. Qhorin Volmark claimed to be the heir of Harren the Black. Who had built Harrenhall. Which was later the Whent family seat. Where Oswell was actually born. Maybe it's the sleep deprivation, but right now this makes kind of sense to me.
In all seriousness this was my first ASOIAF theory. I love your videos. I have your N+A=J hoodie. I still believe in N+A =J can't wait for the books so you two get the validation u deserve. I appreciate your hard work.
Wow, I wasn't convinced by your Mance = Arthur Dayne theory, but it's starting to make sense now. I'm still not convinced by your views on Bloodraven, but I guess I might change my mind again with your next video :)
Thank you so much...we are @gr33nhand on twitter...we aren't the most social media savvy...we are just now starting to figure out what to do with twitter
Did you guys notice (I'm sure you did) that the actor that plays the mashup character of Gerold Hightower/ Oswell Whent at the ToJ scene in the show is the absolute spitting image (although younger) of the guy who plays Tormund. I was quite surprised by this.
I just don't see how the squire dalbridge with the bow who helped qhorin,Jon and the others escape could be a member of the ravens teeth. He would be like 120 years old.
One of the things you're overlooking, is that when the Wildlings catch up with Jon and Qhorin, they show the head of Ebben. This means they killed him, but they don't show the head of Dalbridge. This means they likely did not kill him. So who killed him? It could only be the children.
Mance is trying to gain the support of the wildlings so he can convince them to work together. He needs some sort of legitimacy as wildling so he adds the story about his childhood and how he got to the Night's Watch. And "he's never tasted winter" could easily be referring to the fact that by the wildlings' standards, he may have never experienced "true winter" north of the wall and/or never experienced white walkers.
3:01 Osha thinks of Mance as a Crow and a Southron because he may have ranged far and wide beyond the Wall as a Ranger and been born of Wildling parents but he was taken by the Nights Watch as a baby. Thus he was raised as a Crow and a Southron (the Free Folk/Wildlings think of anybody who was raised at The Wall or south of it as a Southron)to born and raised Wildlings like Osha with all their funny ideas. When she says he's never tasted Winter, she means he always had The Wall to get back to for food and shelter. Unlike a Wildling who was raised in the North. If your whole theory is based on one sentence by a biased character, then its built on very thin foundations. Like thin ice over a lake.
WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE TAKING EVERY LITTLE THING EVERY CHARACTER SAYS AS IF IT WAS TRUE?! OSHA'S EXPRESSING AN OPINION! HER OPINION! NOT A FACT! JUST BECAUSE IT COMES OUT OF SOMEBODY'S MOUTH DOESN'T MAKE IT A FACT! I BET YOU VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP. According to Grand maester Pycelle, Joffrey was the greatest king and most innocent boy who ever lived! Was he telling the truth or just kissing Lannister ass?! I'm surprised you're still not declaring Jon Snow is Robert and Cersei's first born son because he's got black hair! Don't even bother talking to me. Its clear you people believe any bull shit you make up and then build a temple to it.
By the way, using caps lock implies that your yelling or extremely angry, which I highly doubt you are. As why would anyone be this fired up over another persons opinion on a book series? Just wanted you to know. :)
I'm totally down with the children being in league with the others, and I want the Daynes to be alive as much everybody else, but Arthur Dayne was a Dornishman, how could he fake being a wildling, or even a northman for almost two decades?
I think that Arthur Dayne was a man who could easily adapt to the situations at hand, and being that the Dayne's are of First Men descent, grew up with an understanding of the ways of the wildlings, who are in large part , if not all, descended from First Men.
Wow I thought of the same reasons when I read about Quorin and his group. Why would they travel so far just to die? And the places they ended up were exactly where they were meaning to go the whole time.
have just recently discovered your videos and absolutely LOVE the way you tell the story referencing the book and quotes but putting it so it makes sense.. i tried to read the books and really wanted to know more of the characters but just could not follow Martin's POV way of telling the story.. love lord of the rings but could never read Tolkien either... do you have videos of telling the earlier story.. like comparing seasons one and so... or is there a synopsis story like this to get all the plots D+D left out?
thats fine. :) we don't need you to believe everything we say.... as long as people aren't rude or mean, we don't take it personally. its all in good fun. thanks for watching and taking the time to comment
The Order of the Green Hand I think u guys do great work and I love listening to all of your videos and thinking of how I view some things differently :) and that's the fun of it hey! We all get to think different views and I totally agree with you that as long as people are polite and nice about it, it's great to have a discussion on different viewpoints :) Keep up the great work!!
I don't think Jon is a targareyn, Especially because of Jon's dark hair color, Lyanna had brown hair and Rhaegar silver-blond hair, Jon's hair is described as dark brown almost black. Ashara Dayne had/has very dark hair and Ned had dark brown hair making them far more likely as Jon's parrents, This might be silly but remember that the entire plot of the first book was about hair color.
The actor who played Arthur looks like a younger version of the guy who played Mance, which might be a hint. I don't think they will have all of this shit in the show cuz they are running out of time and money, but they DO like to drop some hints about some things
There are other examples of not bending the knee easily 1.) the Martell's words are "Unbowed, UNBENT, Unbroken" which refers of course to them not bending the knee to the Aegon the Conqueror and many of his successors to come. 2,) Torrehen Stark the last King in the North is referred to as The King Who Knelt because he saw other Kings of Westeros at the time refuse to bend the knee to Aegon and therefore were burned by his dragons. Were these only mentioned in World of Ice and Fire?
did any of those examples include the phrase "our knees don't bend easily" or "his knees don't bend easily"? we are talking about the precise way George decided to phrase it
Don't know if you guys mention this in the upcoming videos (I'm re-watching them now, but can't remember), but how do they formulate Mance's back-story to fit with Arthur's death, if Mance was supposed to be born a Wildling and raised from a child in the Watch? Where'd this child go? And when the Wildlings sound their horn (which apparently signals Dalbridge's death and that the ranging party is "caught"), why does this make Qhorin assume the *Children* are back in force? Are the Wildlings supposedly teamed-up with the Children? I'm confused. And though I've heard your Children/Faceless theory before and agreed when I listened to it, now I'm thinking "But an *endless* fake-death - resurrection as a zombie - is the *antithesis* of their 'Valar Morghulis' philosophy". So many questions. Will have to watch that playlist again, after this.
I just found your videos on the King's Guards and Jon's parentage. I find your arguments compelling. You said that you thought Ned was meeting the King's Guard at the tower of Joy and five of Ned's men were killed. I've been searching your videos for a theory about why they were meeting, why did they fight, how did both Ned and the King's Guards survive the fight. In which video should I look, or do we have to wait for the next book for these answers? I apologize if you have answered this before in the comments; there were so many. If Howland Reed shouted, "Don't kill him! He's married to your sister and father to your niece and nephew", that might have saved Ned, but how would Reed know that? Why did Dayne give up Dawn? He would need it in the war for the Dawn. It could blow his cover but he could have changed the hilt, disguise the blade, rename it, only drawing it in combat or just hide it somewhere until he needed it. The wildlings wouldn't have heard of Dawn. Returning Dawn to House Dayne would help to convince people Arthur is dead, but it would be plausible that the sword was lost or stolen. Did he do something at the Tower of Joy to make him ineligible for his station as sword of the morning? If Ned was caught up in this conspiracy to prepare for the war of the Dawn, meeting with the King's Guards occasionally, why wouldn't his first priority as Hand be preparing the 7 Kingdoms for the war?
If you dismiss as lies what some people say, and read a whole lot into what some others say, then, yes, you can come to some really bizarre conclusions.
We didn't dismiss it...we got two different stories...we simply decided to believe the story that makes more sense, and dismiss the one that doesn't...there is a lot of misinformation in the stories people tell...the stories get passed around and by the time one of the POV characters hears it, it is radically different...there is no such thing as a wildling that wields a two handed greatsword...they don't have much steel north of the wall and even less armor...wielding a weapon such as that requires metal plate from head to heal...they don't even have much armor like that at the wall...the men of the knights watch wear boiled leather and chainmail...also, there are only 3-4 characters mentioned in these stories who use a greatsword...they are a specialty weapon and everyone who is known to wield one is accounted for except Mance...then there are the 50 other reasons we cited for believing he was Arthur
You're also dismissing that Tormund also states that Mance was raised a crow (and the crow's a tricksy bird-a line you quote a lot so I know you've read it but left it oddly absent here). Would Osha or Tormund be more likely to have a more accurate story? Osha is not part of Mance's alliance, and likely hasn't met Mance herself while Tormund is close with him.
Thank you for another great Video and some major truths behind the Song ... Why do you think Ser Daynes companions were so personally convinced to dedicate their whole life to this cause :)?
Thank you very much...That's complicated, but we believe they knew about the "wars to come." The rest of it will be explained in our next video, or maybe two, because the more we delve into this story line the less likely it seems we're going to be able to get it all into 2 videos like we originally planned
This, alongside the true enemy, is my favorite part of your overarching theory. I find it extremely compelling, and have adopted the views after watching your kingsguard videos. 2 correlations I wonder how you think they play out (if I missed you mentioning them, I apologize)- Ulmer from the Kingswood Brotherhood who supposedly shot Hightower in the hand and was atop the wall when Tormund walked through it. Ulmer would have had to know what Hightower looked like. Do you think he was in on it, as a former enemy? If not, how do you deal with him? Allliser Thorne was a Targ knight in Robert's Rebellion. He would also know what Dane/Hightower/Whent looked like. How does he fit in the theory?
this is a world where people have no idea what famous people look like...Jaime walked into KL less than a year after leaving and no one knew who he was
Do you think the saying "the North remembers" is actually referring to the true North beyond the wall and its people remember rather than the North below the wall?
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand cool, you guys do great videos btw stumbled across you and have been binge watching your videos, so good at finding the hidden details. Thanks
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
So Jon went beyond the wall to find his uncle and actually found him , mind blowing
DAAAAMMMMN
Well that is one way of putting it.
I like how the HalfHand asks Jon "Is your sword sharp?" Whent has a weird obsession with sharp swords, constantly sharpening it.
In Game of Thrones (the TV show), "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come" are Mance Rayder's last words (S5E1 final scene), and also the second-to-last thing Arthur Dane says (S6E3 about 15 minutes in).
I'm pretty sure the Dayne = Mance theory is true but instead of doing anything with it D&D just gave a subtle nod and threw another good plotline in the trash
King mance rayder = kingmarcer(maker) Dayne??
Jon ends up saying the exact same phrase to Gendry on the show
"Our knees do not bend easily." Lol you got me there
+Rebecca R. Reus that was one of the very first things that we found that had us thinking there was a connection! We read the books together so we noticed stuff like that when the other person was reading. Haha
There's also a huge lack of details about how they died. How is it that no one is curious how the greatest fighters who ever lived were murdered?
They weren't murdered, they've always been believed to die in combat against Ned Stark and his companions. Since they died in battle, nobody questioned it.
@@subarnosinha8042 exactly the fight being 7 vs 3 makes it believable. If Ned and Arthur had faced 1v1 I'm sure more people would have questioned it
Well I definitely prefer this theory over the shitty Mance is actually Rheagar Targaryen one.
Thank you...people who try to say Mance is Rhaegar completely ignore that GRRM said that Rhaegar was cremated...he doesn't lie when he answers questions...he refuses to answer questions that are too poignant, or says something super cryptic, but doesn't lie
The Order of the Green Hand what? i thot his body never turned up? thats kinda guttin, i liked m=r
George definitely said he was cremated after the battle
I was a Mance = Rhaegar guy for a while, only because I had a really strong feeling that there was A LOT more to Mance than we knew so far. Admittedly, Rhaegar never quite felt right, but it was the only thought I had, and came mostly from the idea that the "King beyond the wall" was really "The King, beyond the wall." Mance as Arthur Dayne makes a lot more sense, especially when they walk us through the scene in the training yard where Mance-as-Rattleshirt schools the shit out of Jon....
joshmo141x
That was what got me too. The rest of it is speculation. Good speculation, logical and perceptive but speculation. That fight was cold hard fact. Jon got totally schooled, and that doesn't just happen. The pause on the sword, is a give away. the otherworldly strength and speed, the way Jon could never get in a solid blow. That's all prodigy level master swordsmen stuff. That isn't stuff you learn or develop in the wild or at the wall
"Crows are always liars". Old Nan
Yes they are
RJ Tiger she's literally the most intelligent person in Westeros
I'm so disappointed D&D flayed her.
Mrs. Morbid When did that happen? Missed that.
Richard Bowen ehh it's when Sansa first tries to run with her little candle trick, which Old Nan told her
And then whapoowwww she's face to face with a flayed old Nan, and a smiling Ramsay.
most terrifying line in asoiaf
There’s actually parallels to this theory in fire and blood when Maegor’s kings guard who is sent to the wall for breaking their vows and going to Jehaerys’ side and then one declared himself king beyond the wall but the wildlings killed him.
You had me at R+L=Aegon; now you're just spoiling me. You guys are doing an awesome job on these videos. My new favorite ASoIaF source.
thank you so much!
R+L=J for sure.... There's 0 doubt... That being said your channel is absolutely amazing and been listening for years now! Amazing work!
@@UAPReportingCenter bruh. 0 doubt? What the heck?
@@pawemarsza9515 There really is 0 doubt at this point. Even tho its been speculated to death
🤙Long live the Order of the Green Hand🤘
"The trees have eyes again"... Wow, the whole theory was a bit of a reach until that point.
+GerryBolger Thanks for sticking in there long enough to get to that part. We knew it was a little long there but thought it wouldn't drive the point home without the whole context of what was going on
There’s a funny contrast with Oswell went being The Halfhand with him being definitely the most forgotten of the three kingsguard at the tower and Jon knows who he is immediately without ever having met him. But Mance Jon can’t pick him out in his own tent and Arthur is the most famous swordsman ever, and definitely the most focused on at the tower.
This theory still makes even more sense with Jon being the son of Rheagar. As a member of the Kings guard Arthur is sworn to protect the royal family. Arthur is Rheagar best friend and Rheagar was obsessed with the prophecy. Which is why he married Leanna in the first place. Rheagar would definitely want Authur to plant himself as a wildling and get them to come together for the battle against the dead.
God damn it. I had a lot of these same theories before I saw the show. Rekindling those memories makes me think I was wrong to doubt. GRR Martin is a master troll either way. Subscribed.
Thank you. He really is
You both helped me through a really really dark time in my life. Hearing y'all say that you were concerned that I couldn't see your live stream today got me way more emotional than I thought it could or would. Probably way too much information but I was addicted to drugs and homeless from 2025 to 2017 all I had to distract myself from my horrifying reality (besides what was currently making my reality so unbarable) were my A Song of ice and Fire books and your channel, voices, theories, personalities, jokes, and opinions. I'll have 1 year on Saturday off that fucking bullshit and now I am capable of also being...true...to my word! You'd think that would be the highlight of my week but you're videos always are! Hope the lady's mother and Quinn are both ok. I'd say 7 blessings but screw the septons and the maesters!
❤
I feel like you guys are reading a whole different book series than me! Great insight and I love how deep you dig into the backgrounds of some of the characters with smaller roles to play. Awesome channel!!
These are just theories until they are proven.
Wow! I gotta give it to you, Order of the Green Hand: You truly delve deep into the text, and extrapolate so much. Your reading is just as creative as George's writing. I really hope that George's narrative really is as labrynthine and interconnected as you believe it to be. I can't believe how much I missed in my reading of the texts. I am humbled and awed. Yours is truly the only cast worthy of viewership in the realm of Thrones. Keep up the amazing work!
+B schuler thank you very, very much. More to come soon. :)
I am very impressed by the level of in dept you point out. And dedication. Love it. Thank you :)
If Arthur Dayne is Mance, his cohort in the Tower of Joy Scene looks a lot like Tormund
we don't think that was a coincidence...they could have cast anyone, but they cast two guys that look like younger versions of Mance and Tormund
After watching your channel I totally agree
Also the height difference between the 'present' Mance and Tormund are kinda being hidden by perspective and terrain elevation differences in the flashback sequence. Which is kind of strange for the producers to do if they were just brand new characters that didn't need to match a precedent.
I hadn't thought about the angle of the shot but you're absolutely right. The weird angle made using pictures of it really hard
Thank you for really really good video! You guys work hard to find the true meaning of it all. This video is a good example for what kind of writer Martin is. The show and the books are more and more different. I have never red before so interesting book series like The Song of Ice and Fire. George R.R Martin is one of a kind writer. Writer who has created hole new type of telling the tale. I just can't wait for your next video! Maybe I have to read the books again but slow motion 😁 there's just so much going on...
I may have misheard but how could a member of Raven's Teeth be alive until that point. Didnt the Bloodraven go to the wall over a hundred years ago ?
He couldn't be. Squire Dalbridge was the squire to King Jaehaerys II Targaryen, how reigned from 259 to 262 and was born in 225. So Dalbridge was probably born in the 240's. Brynden was send to the wall in 233 and left for his cave in 252.
80 AT LEAST. Bloodraven and the Ravensteeth who volunteered left in 233, 60+years before A Game Of Thrones. If Dalbridge was 20 or so....do the math. Its obvious whoever came up with this dumb theory didn't. BTW what happened to his Weirwood bow?
nice catch on the weirwood bow, for that matter what happened to dark sister? maybe both in the cave
Looked up the chances for this being true - and it is entirely plausible.
Well no one said the tooth had to be a member of the original company setup during the first blackfyre rebellion in 196, Bloodraven left for the wall in 233 after the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. That is 37 years after the red grass field. When bloodraven disappeared on that ranging beyond the wall in 252 he ought to have been round 70-80 years old.
Clash of kings takes place in 299 and if our ravens teeth was rather young (15?) back in 252 he would be around today, making it possible, but he would need to be in really good shape for his age (round 80).
Realise this is a very late answer, haha. :)
@@MysticaFaeryhe would also need to be able to pass for young enough to have squired for jaehaerys ii, aegon v’s heir, this theory is tinfoil
I thought the theory was a bit wild, but after watching the videos the details about Mance and Qhorin are quite interesting.
It's however strange that nobody would have recognise them as they would have been famous and there were Lords and common people from all around the world that may have recognised them. I am thinking about Stannis with Mance, but I am sure there would have been lot of more cases.
A funny thing if this theory is true is that Mance sang the Dornishman's wife in front of Jon and his wife.. being himself a Dornishman. Another fact not mentioned is that Mance Rayder prooves to be an excellent warrior beating Jon up in a training session, which would match with Arthur Dayne's ability.
My favorite lines to date; "Why wouldn't he just Peace Out to Essos?" Then; "Get Rich or Die Tryin!" I'm so Done... In here cracking UP! LoLoL!
Thank you...we do what we can
Your videos on Game of Thrones theories are by far the most fascinating I've seen. Please do a video on the children of the forest and the whitewalkers!!! It's my favorite mystery of the series
+buoe 12 thank you so much! We are leading up to that with the wars to come series, which will lead us directly into the COF/white walkers. Newest video should be done very soon (part 2 of wars to come). :)
If the 3 King's Guard are still alive then what happened to Ned's 6 companions?
I womdered this as well
@@dihi3365 They're still with Young Griff?
Apart from Howland Reed, everyone else is dead. We know for a certainty that Willam Dustin died, coz Barbrey just hates Ned and has sworn that she won't let Ned's bones pass through and make it through Winterfell. Howland Reed "saved" Ned, so yeah apart from him, everyone, Martyn Cassel, Ethan Glover, Theo Wull, Mark Ryswell, is dead.
@@subarnosinha8042 I actually don't think Dustin died. Ned is not that kind of guy who wouldn't bring bones of his friends to his widow. Maybe Ned couldn't do this because Dustin is still alive.
@@jirifridrich8382 If he was alive, he'd have been brought back in the story by now, like JonCon. We're past the point where George will introduce new characters or reveal the "presumed dead" to be alive, IMO. Plus, we haven't been given any reason to think Willam Dustin's alive. But I may be wrong.
I'm into this channel already by the name "the order of the green hand"
Thank you
I have been a huge fan for a long time. Your content is top tier. I have rewatched all your videos multiple times.
I'd love to see an updated version of these older videos, like revisiting this idea. Whether or not opinions changed.
After every one of your videos, I realize how much I miss when reading each novel. It seems like every sentence has a dual meaning. Thank you for all of your time and effort. It's just amazing!
Holy shit guys
I now really really want this to be true
(I've watched almost all of your videos at this point and I'm loving it all)
good job!!
Thank you so much!!! Coming from someone such as yourself that really means a lot to us
By the way...I love your Sherlock Holmes costume
The Order of the Green Hand haha I'm glad! and well part 3 may be a bit delayed because I've just been binge watching you guys lol xD
but nuh your vids are also getting me pumped up to do more sleuthing myself. Keep it up! I'm subbed :)
Well, I'm going to choose to forgive you because I can't think of a better reason for it to be delayed ;)
Also, we were just having a friendly debate on where you are from based on your accent and I don't remember you mentioning it in your videos so we decided that the only way to settle it is to ask
These really are the best ASOIAF videos around right now. I'm 100% convincced Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne. Keep up the high quality content.
thanks! keep your eyes our for part 2. more evidence to support mance being arthur. :)
have you watched preston Jacobs? you obviously haven't if you're making this statement
Eric Lupercio I get why you like Preston, his theories are really interesting and it's always great to watch a channel that swims away from the current. I have to admit though I do sometimes find his theories erring slightly too far on the side of tin foil.
I watch a lot of these kinds of videos; and the green hand videos are by far the best. Excellent, original theories. Keep it up!
Thank you...we will
Mance meaning "causes one to forget" or "without surname", Rayder meaning "counselor"
I always thought it apt to mean as Mans(ion) Raider in relation to Bael the Bard.
Thank you soo much for your post - This is day two of my binge watching of your channel - the theories and storytelling and clues that you all are telling is just awesome... I love listening while crocheting... You all are the next best thing to the audio books... After this - what will you be doing??? any clues.???
Why Catelyn Sucks, Part 2 should be out later tonight
Really interesting. I'd forgotten all the Qoren/Jon dialogue. Now when I think of Jon killing Qoren it reminds me of Azor Ahai driving his sword thru Nissa Nissa. Neither Jon or Azor wanted to kill the person but they had to. Melisandre, " I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor only shows me Snow." Hmmmm. More than a coincidence that Mance & Arthur use the same "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come." That's a unique thing to say. GRR tipped off D&D? You raise a good point.
I hadn't thought of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa there. For some reason that scene always makes me think of Obi Wan letting Darth Vader kill him so he can become more powerful. I have no idea why...something about a mentor (and Qhorin only mentored him for like 2 chapters) letting the apprentice kill him for the greater good or something
After Darth strikes Obi down his robe just falls in a pile on the floor and his Lightsabre on top of it. I don't know enough of Star Wars canon but what ever happened to his Lightsabre? I'm sure Darth wouldn't leave it there, do you know if it ever surfaces again? I can't remember.
+ScarletB I don't think so. I have to admit I'm not sure
So now I must bingewatch all your ASOIAF videos instead of studying for exams?
"Our grades mean no more than our lives, so long the realm is safe."
Amazing as always! Well done!
Hi Ricardo! You were our first, and for awhile, only fan. Making you one of our sole motivators to keep at it. We were actually just thinking we need to reach out to you, so I am glad you commented. Thanks for the support, because we might've quit if it weren't for you. thanks again-
Then, I'm really happy I found your channel in time!!! :)
Woooooooooow, you blew my mind!! Excellent job! i will definitely be re-reading the books once I finish them once first!
Thank you so much...they get better every time you read them, and you notice so many more details the more familiar you are with the story
so we have the Wall Line (Night's Watch), the Neck Line (Green Hand), and the Sword of the Morning making an advanced line beyond the wall with the Wildlings or just filling the 1st line of defence against The Winter.
The North remembers the Starks, but the Wildlings remember the Winter, which is coming
I really like that...sometimes I wish we could go back and edit our videos when people come up with lines I wish I thought of
OMG this makes so much sense. Keep up the great work. Always love it when a new video of yours comes up.... Seven Blessings 👍😃
+Meridian Mormont Thank you. And seven blessings to you
Some hints about Arthur Dayne in Jon's chapter with Qhorin:
Dawn and Qhorin Halfhand arrived together.
Dawn had broken when Jon stepped from the tent beside Qhorin Halfhand.
They could see the fire in the night, glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star.
There are so many dawn references in Jon's chapters...he has to average over one per chapter
@Jethro Torczon Gerold Hightower was shot in the hand by Ulmer of the Kingswood Brotherhood. He didn't lose any fingers.
Maybe qhorin halfhand is arthur dayne , mance rayder is rhaegar
wow bravo you've found and pointed out some amazing stuff, after years of reading the books and watching various theory vids i never throught i could be blown away by new information and theories. i am now hitting the sub button and queing up your other vids
Thank you so much...we have a suggested order to view playlist if you are interested...our videos tend to build off of each other and definitely make more sense in that order
already watched your whole playlist really well done vids i love your theory crafting that's both well put together and thought provoking through-out all your vids
Thank you...its always nice to hear that the work we put into them is appreciated
I think Ned agreed to the KGs plan after howland convinced him its the only way to defeat the war with the children which resulted in the KG and Ned killing Neds bannermen cause they didnt believe them. Thats why Ned has nightmares he feels guilt about killing his men
OK, I've binge watched all of your videos and haven't really commented yet so far because I just want to keep an open mind. If true, and you're very convincing, this is mind blowing, "wheel breaking", stuff here. You are flipping the "establishment" on it's end. The research you're doing and the dots your connecting is incredibly impressive. I am starting to drink your koolaid, I can't wait to see what your collaboration with The Don Tony Teflon is all about! Bravo!
Thank you...the collab is going to take us a couple weeks...Tony was at the Wolfs Den a few nights ago and this video is going to be epic, but when we started putting our theories together the project grew to the point that it's going to take a week or two, maybe even three to put it all together and get it all right, but when it's done, it will be the most comprehensive children of the forest video that has been made
Interesting take and well thought out.
Looking fwd to the remaining videos.
Also, after re-reading a couple of the books it was interesting to note that no else had bother to quest why Mance would scale the wall to visit winterfel as he mentioned.
+Jamrock94m C exactly!
Love the SOA spots thrown in there. This is one of my favorite Games channels.
thank you Connie...SOA was a great show
These videos are genius. The reason I love them is that you guys use direct evidence from the books to prove a theory. The main issue I have with most people who argue theories is that they make large amounts of assumptions based on what they want to see. In other words their overall theories are not correct cause they do not analyze the textual evidence in an informative and academic manner. I mean this is probably where the books are heading in my opinion. You guys use direct textual evidence to prove hypothesis's that have strong structure I found these video theories to be not only academic but highly professional.... Valar Morghulis
It explains why the washerwomen (wildings) ask Theon the whereabouts of the crypts of Winterfell. Abel, who is really Mance rayder, who is really Arthur dayne maybe knows Rhaegar left something down below.
Possibly
+Khaled S yes, yes!
The Order of the Green Hand Can you do a video about the crypts and the theories surrounding it?
We're going to touch on that a little bit in our next video
so, I'm 5 years late on this, but if I may -- this is one of my favorite theories i had never thought of. I'm looking for more evidence pertaining to some theories while battling my Ice and Fire dependency and think you might like this one
remember how in AGoT, GRRM uses a writing technique to foreshadow Littlefinger betraying Ned. Something like "...Joffrey sat atop the Iron Throne. Supported by Littlefinger, Ned..." to show how Joffrey was supported by Littlefinger before he made his move.
fast forward to ASoS, Jamie 3: Jamie is fighting Brienne and starts reminiscing on who can defeat him in battle he says is "Gerold Hightower as well in his heyday and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber..."
Hightower + Dayne = amongst the living
Whent dead by this point
I think you're right
I'd love to hear a podcast with you, your girlfriend, Alt Shift X, Preston Jacobs and Tony Teflon, that would be amazing and I guess we could throw in Red Team Review but he seems more focused on the show.
that would be fun...it could turn into a bloodbath, but fun nonetheless...at the very least it would be one heck of a debate
Yeah it could turn into it's own "long night" haha
DoubleO88 dont forget thebattproductions
I'd love to hear just you guys and Preston. For my money the two best Ice & Fire channels there are...Love the Don Tony T but you guys are on another level...
DoubleO88 HATE Red team review.Charlie is an annoying,show only fan.When he tries to talk about events in books that he obviously ddnt read,I cringe.
If you reorganize the letters in 'Mance Rayder" you get Dayne Cream or Mace RR Dayne
Hi! thanks so much for watching and for the compliment! I am totally with you with the reorganizing of the letters in his name. I've spent an embarassing amount of time trying to make words from his name (and some others), but it is really cool. I think there is something to it. Look at Arstan Whitebeard- you can make Barristan. haha
totaly off topic but at 1:50 is that a stark shield on the back of that wright? would love t know how that got there and how long ago
If all of these became true you deserve a medal :p I think I'm losing some details with my translated books, it's never the same as reading on the original language... I will watch all your videos again, I feel i'm away back comparing with the other people commenting! Thanks a lot for this video and I can't wait to the next one!
thank you so much Alexandra...you are definitely not the first to comment about thinking that some of the details in the way he words things get lost when reading translated versions of the books
these are amazing, ive subbed and look forward to all your future vids
Thank you so much
Something else about quorin..he loves to sit watching the flames in the fire. .
Ive always thought Quorin was warging Mormonts Raven.
When the raven speaks, we know why it says every word- "snow", "jon snow", "king", etc. But when it says, "CORN",
I always thought it was saying, "QHORIN".
But we would just assume & hear, "corn". Even tho the bird doesnt even eat corn.
Even in this video, when u guys say qhorins name, it sounds like youre saying corn.
And when the Halfhand walked away & left Jon alone to kill Ygrette, Jon didn't. & When he went to tell Quorin what happened, Quorin cut him off, & said, "I know". He could b a warg, watching from a bird or animal. We dont know much about the guy.
But it'd b smart for him to watch mormonts bird, so he can keep an eye on the nights watch, from his ranging far beyond the wall. And, possibly for communicating with Mormont, assuming Mornont knows he can warg, which I don't believe he would. But, Mormont did know when they were going to meet Quorin beyond the wall, & some other information about Quorins whereabouts while they were en route.
I have to say: Bravo! I't's been a long time since i've heard of a new ground altering perspective on the series. I've heard of 'Mance isn't Mance' theories before (e.g. mance = rhaegar, see the channel 'James of Thrones), but this is indeed an interesting idea! And bravo on the production aswell! Very entertaining video! Looking foreward to more!
thank you so much!
just read the arya chapters where she goes to the house of the black and white(AFFC) and the bran chapters(ADWD) when he meets bloodraven for the first time- i noticed in the bran chapters, the references to the cave being Black and White.then in the Arya chapters i noticed that when Arya sees the Waif she is struck by how big her eyes are-"dark eyes as big as saucers". i thought there were a lot of similarities in both.Bran even thinks he sees Arya but it turns out to be one of the children.Bran learns to use his sight and Aryas is taken away after they consume a (albeit different) white substance.are these parts of both stories happening at the same time? also the dish bran eats the paste from had "a dozen faces carved into it.that made me think about the many faced god.that got me thinking about all the faces the faceless men have in the house of black and white and the many faces of the weirwood trees in westeros.that got me thinking about bloodraven telling bran-"a thousand eyes,a hundred SKINS,wisdom as deep as the roots of ancient treess,greenseers. i cant wait for the videos about the children and the faceless men. my mind was blown watching these videos i can only imagine what it was like realising it yourselves.
Great observations...it can not be conclusively said if these chapters are happening at the same time but the waif is super creepy and her huge eyes popped out at us too...if you could contact us on Facebook or Twitter I'd be happy to continue this conversation with you but we haven't released a lot of our thoughts on this topic yet and I don't want to put them in our public comment section before we do
i dont use facebook but i am following you on twitter
sent me a message there
Thank you both so much for these informative video's. I usually have them playing in the background and many of my "GoT" maniac roommates love to here these perspectives. =)
+Ghostorm3 thank you so much! Wars to come part 2 will be out in the next few hours. :)
I just saw my notification on my phone. Going to watch it now. Thank you!!!
Thank you...it's good to know how much people look forward to our videos...when we started about 2 months ago, we didn't think anyone would watch
We are the watchers...on the wall....err internet! =)
Qhorin's hand better matches Hightower's, no?
+Silver Imp We thought about that a lot but decided he wasn't old enough. Also Gerold Hightower was shot in the hand with an arrow. Not missing 3 fingers. Don't worry. Our next video will reveal who we think Gerold Hightower really is
when was Gerold Hightower shot in hand?
From ASoIaF wiki.... Around 280 AC/281 AC, Gerold was shot through the hand by Ulmer, an outlaw of the Kingswood Brotherhood, who went on to steal a kiss and some jewels from Princess Elia Martell of Dorne.
Must of missed that good catch!! Did it hinder his fighting in any way
I am rewatching this and realizing that you pointed out something I thought the first time I read it in ACOK - the harvest moon eyes Jon sees. The first time I read it, I immediately thought they were COTF (familiar enough with ASOIAF prior to getting into the books enough to pick up on their appearance). Most people assume it was a shadowcat, but I agree with you, it was a COTF. I think they are evil and Bloodraven is their captive, and Bran will figure it out before chaos goes down in the heart of winter. Love your channel!!!!
I hadn't remembered/noticed this from the books, but hearing it, Mance's professed backstory makes *no* sense. Since when are wildlings allowed to take the black? The Watch is unspeakably racist, and one of Jon's assassins' grievances with him was his willingness to allow wildlings to take the black.
I wish I thought to say that
Earlier, however, a counter-argument occurred to me. While it does seem unlikely that Mance would be accepted at the wall as a wildling boy, it seems still more unlikely that no one would know for a fact that he hadn't been. Wouldn't there be some record of his existence (the lack of which would disprove his story)? Wouldn't someone have to remember him (such that people would call bullshit if no one did)? If no one else, wouldn't Maester Aemon have been at the wall around this time? It's inconceivable that he'd not know about a child being raised there, and therefore inconceivable that he'd not immediately know it was false.
At the same time, there are other considerations similar to my original one. Since when does the watch have the resources or desire to care for an 8 year old child? Even if they valued his life, (and he's a wildling, so they shouldn't), they'd surely make arrangements for someone to care for him rather than care for him _themselves._
Also, did they slaughter his entire tribe? If not, did they not want him back? Why didn't he want to return to them? Was he an only child whose parents were both part of the party the watch killed? If they did slaughter his parents, why didn't Mance resent them?
What was an 8 year old doing with a group that would incur the watch's wrath? As racist as the watch is, I'm not sure they'd slaughter a random group of wildlings for *no* reason. What was an 8 year old doing raiding?
It seems like both Mance's story and the falsehood of it are impossible, which leaves me thoroughly stumped.
Can mance be arthur dayne if he doesn't have the purple/deep blue eyes? Isn't that a normal eye color for Dayne man/woman? Eddard Dayne have it, Ashara dayne had it aswell.
I came here to remind myself why I subscribed to your channel in the first place.
You said "Bloodraven's war with Children of the Forest". How can he have a war with them when he is working for them??
because it seems way more likely that he is their prisoner
Hımm, by the way thanks for the videos, watching them has become one of my spare-time activies in the recent days, only activity maybe :)
Greetings from Turkey :)
The Order of the Green Hand but by default Bran is also their prisoner? Aren’t the children against the White Walkers too?
Do you think the tower of joy dream we're all metaphors? That Howland Reed actually did something to stab Ser Author Dayne in the back or another way to put it, he betrayed him, maybe accidentally. Ser Author Dayne and his men symbolically died that day and became other people?
In Melissandre's chapter, Mance Rayder says that he liked Tormund and that "the old fraud" likes him too. Maybe that's a nod that Tormund is not who he appears to be.
I have a few questions.
Why wouldn't any of the three kingsguard insist on going with Rhegar's child?
Why would all three commit to the cause of preparation for the war to come instead of continuing to upload the oath they already swore to?
It isn't like they couldn't adjust the story in Essos to accommodate them. If anything, their presence might have actually helped to sell the story to Connington, even more than Ashara's presence would. With their witness they might not even need to lie to Connington, or the realm later. One or more of them being present for Aegon's invasion would make Aegon's claim more plausible to most in westros.
Dayne, Whent, and Hightower have more reason to stick by the child, and few if any to go North and prepare for the war. What is their motivation? Even assuming they knew what was coming and what was at steak, what would be so convincing to all three of them to abandon their last charge, and commit the rest of their lives to prepare the North for the war to come instead of upholding their vows as Kingsguard?
i just read the jamie chapter in ASOS and when he has his dream about Rhaegar and the kingsguard. it reads "they were armoured all in snow it seemed to him,and ribbons of mist swirled back from there shoulders." i think that sentence confirms your theory about the Kingsgaurd for me."Armoured in snow",thats got to be hiding in the north.the ribbons of mist swirling back from their shoulders to reveal who the are,that sounds like a new identity, i cant remember seeing it mentioned in any of the vids(please forgive me if i missed it) but it would fit in a episode about about Jamie (hint hint) i forgot that when he had the dream his head was resting on the stump of a white tree that makes him think of Ned Starks heart tree.
Osha's statement in of itself isn't enough to warrant questioning Mance's identity, he claims he was born a Wildling and he may well have been but because he was taken in by the Night's Watch as a child that would make many perceive him more as a Crow than Wildling, and he didn't make an impact on the Wildlings until after he left the Night's Watch so it's a fair statement she made. As for him never tasting winter, Osha was born, raised and lived most of her life beyond the wall, Mance's life wasn't spent entirely beyond the wall. You really need more than Osha's word to springboard off in this direction with Mance's character, I'm not dispelling this theory entirely just that it's way too weak a piece of evidence to start off with.
Not just Osha. No one else mentions it either. She's the only wildling that mentions his backstory and wildlings would know the king beyond the wall's backstory. It seems impossible that wildlings wouldn't talk about the man who successfully declared himself their king and know who he is and what his story is. Qhorin is the only one who says he's wildling born. Mance doesn't even say it
Fair enough I see your logic there but I'm still not at all convinced that these characters are actually Arthur, Oswell & Gerold as you still haven't given a piece of evidence that's enough to sway me, overall you have a good argument and I will say that I don't think it's impossible for this theory of yours to actually come true.
I just watched Preston's Schemes of Qhorin videos so naturally my thoughts went back to your "The Wars To Come"-series. I looked up Qhorin in AWOIAF but didn't type Halfhand, so I was suggested Qhorin Halfhand, of course, and Qhorin Volmark, a member of the wider Hoare family.
Qhorin, Qhored, Qhorwyn seem to be traditional names in this family. One member of this family, but not named in this tradition, was Harwyn Hardhand ("Ha..hand", anyone?) grandfather of Harren the Black. Qhorin Volmark claimed to be the heir of Harren the Black. Who had built Harrenhall. Which was later the Whent family seat. Where Oswell was actually born.
Maybe it's the sleep deprivation, but right now this makes kind of sense to me.
In all seriousness this was my first ASOIAF theory. I love your videos. I have your N+A=J hoodie. I still believe in N+A =J can't wait for the books so you two get the validation u deserve. I appreciate your hard work.
Wow, I wasn't convinced by your Mance = Arthur Dayne theory, but it's starting to make sense now.
I'm still not convinced by your views on Bloodraven, but I guess I might change my mind again with your next video :)
+Marc Martial haha, thanks. This is just part 1, in part 2 we really are going to hit home the MANCE / Arthur story
These are very in depth videos. How do you guys not have even 5k subs? Are you on twitter? I'll tweet about you to my 6 followers.
Thank you so much...we are @gr33nhand on twitter...we aren't the most social media savvy...we are just now starting to figure out what to do with twitter
lol 6 followers ! love it. we have like 30 haha
Did you guys notice (I'm sure you did) that the actor that plays the mashup character of Gerold Hightower/ Oswell Whent at the ToJ scene in the show is the absolute spitting image (although younger) of the guy who plays Tormund. I was quite surprised by this.
probably not a coincidence...we think the show is allowed to allude to the true story of the books, but isn't allowed to spoil it
You guys r GOOD!!! LOVE YOUR CHANNEL!💗🐺🐲🌠🐙🌞🌹❄🔥
I just don't see how the squire dalbridge with the bow who helped qhorin,Jon and the others escape could be a member of the ravens teeth. He would be like 120 years old.
The wars to come have always been my favorite videos.
One of the things you're overlooking, is that when the Wildlings catch up with Jon and Qhorin, they show the head of Ebben. This means they killed him, but they don't show the head of Dalbridge. This means they likely did not kill him. So who killed him? It could only be the children.
Mance is trying to gain the support of the wildlings so he can convince them to work together. He needs some sort of legitimacy as wildling so he adds the story about his childhood and how he got to the Night's Watch. And "he's never tasted winter" could easily be referring to the fact that by the wildlings' standards, he may have never experienced "true winter" north of the wall and/or never experienced white walkers.
Being at the wall as a ranger would mean he knows the same winter as the wildlings...
superb job !! Thank u!!
Thank you
3:01 Osha thinks of Mance as a Crow and a Southron because he may have ranged far and wide beyond the Wall as a Ranger and been born of Wildling parents but he was taken by the Nights Watch as a baby. Thus he was raised as a Crow and a Southron (the Free Folk/Wildlings think of anybody who was raised at The Wall or south of it as a Southron)to born and raised Wildlings like Osha with all their funny ideas.
When she says he's never tasted Winter, she means he always had The Wall to get back to for food and shelter. Unlike a Wildling who was raised in the North.
If your whole theory is based on one sentence by a biased character, then its built on very thin foundations. Like thin ice over a lake.
If that's the case, why does he know nothing of winter?
WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE TAKING EVERY LITTLE THING EVERY CHARACTER SAYS AS IF IT WAS TRUE?!
OSHA'S EXPRESSING AN OPINION! HER OPINION! NOT A FACT! JUST BECAUSE IT COMES OUT OF SOMEBODY'S MOUTH DOESN'T MAKE IT A FACT!
I BET YOU VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP.
According to Grand maester Pycelle, Joffrey was the greatest king and most innocent boy who ever lived! Was he telling the truth or just kissing Lannister ass?!
I'm surprised you're still not declaring Jon Snow is Robert and Cersei's first born son because he's got black hair!
Don't even bother talking to me. Its clear you people believe any bull shit you make up and then build a temple to it.
hello! Hope all is well! I wanted to thank you so much for your comments, and hope you have a great evening.
By the way, using caps lock implies that your yelling or extremely angry, which I highly doubt you are. As why would anyone be this fired up over another persons opinion on a book series? Just wanted you to know. :)
I'm totally down with the children being in league with the others, and I want the Daynes to be alive as much everybody else, but Arthur Dayne was a Dornishman, how could he fake being a wildling, or even a northman for almost two decades?
I think that Arthur Dayne was a man who could easily adapt to the situations at hand, and being that the Dayne's are of First Men descent, grew up with an understanding of the ways of the wildlings, who are in large part , if not all, descended from First Men.
He also would have had plenty of time to educate himself.
Qhorin is Oswell because he's clean shaven and stands tall? This is one of the biggest stretches I've ever seen.
Those are just two of many contributing factors...it will make much more sense once we get parts 2 and 3 out
Very interesting. Thanks ootgh
thanks! :)
Always subbed to this one when i read it on ASOIAF forums years ago.
Wow I thought of the same reasons when I read about Quorin and his group. Why would they travel so far just to die? And the places they ended up were exactly where they were meaning to go the whole time.
have just recently discovered your videos and absolutely LOVE the way you tell the story referencing the book and quotes but putting it so it makes sense.. i tried to read the books and really wanted to know more of the characters but just could not follow Martin's POV way of telling the story.. love lord of the rings but could never read Tolkien either... do you have videos of telling the earlier story.. like comparing seasons one and so... or is there a synopsis story like this to get all the plots D+D left out?
I agree that Qhorin & Mance were prob kingsguard, but I'm still of the belief that (even in the books) Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna
thats fine. :) we don't need you to believe everything we say.... as long as people aren't rude or mean, we don't take it personally. its all in good fun. thanks for watching and taking the time to comment
The Order of the Green Hand I think u guys do great work and I love listening to all of your videos and thinking of how I view some things differently :) and that's the fun of it hey!
We all get to think different views and I totally agree with you that as long as people are polite and nice about it, it's great to have a discussion on different viewpoints :)
Keep up the great work!!
I don't think Jon is a targareyn
I don't think Jon is a targareyn, Especially because of Jon's dark hair color, Lyanna had brown hair and Rhaegar silver-blond hair, Jon's hair is described as dark brown almost black.
Ashara Dayne had/has very dark hair and Ned had dark brown hair making them far more likely as Jon's parrents, This might be silly but remember that the entire plot of the first book was about hair color.
@@Anacronian Isn't Lyanna's hair dark? And wouldn't that be enough?
How will this effect Bran and Arya? Bran is aligned with the children and Arya is aligned with the Faceless men.
are they though? arya was just trying to survive and bran was tricked into coming there
Hey guys... How about Jon using the phrase of his uncle yesterday? I wish you good fortune in the wars to come... ?? I liberally jumped!
The actor who played Arthur looks like a younger version of the guy who played Mance, which might be a hint. I don't think they will have all of this shit in the show cuz they are running out of time and money, but they DO like to drop some hints about some things
There are other examples of not bending the knee easily 1.) the Martell's words are "Unbowed, UNBENT, Unbroken" which refers of course to them not bending the knee to the Aegon the Conqueror and many of his successors to come. 2,) Torrehen Stark the last King in the North is referred to as The King Who Knelt because he saw other Kings of Westeros at the time refuse to bend the knee to Aegon and therefore were burned by his dragons. Were these only mentioned in World of Ice and Fire?
did any of those examples include the phrase "our knees don't bend easily" or "his knees don't bend easily"? we are talking about the precise way George decided to phrase it
Don't know if you guys mention this in the upcoming videos (I'm re-watching them now, but can't remember), but how do they formulate Mance's back-story to fit with Arthur's death, if Mance was supposed to be born a Wildling and raised from a child in the Watch? Where'd this child go?
And when the Wildlings sound their horn (which apparently signals Dalbridge's death and that the ranging party is "caught"), why does this make Qhorin assume the *Children* are back in force? Are the Wildlings supposedly teamed-up with the Children? I'm confused.
And though I've heard your Children/Faceless theory before and agreed when I listened to it, now I'm thinking "But an *endless* fake-death - resurrection as a zombie - is the *antithesis* of their 'Valar Morghulis' philosophy". So many questions. Will have to watch that playlist again, after this.
I just found your videos on the King's Guards and Jon's parentage. I find your arguments compelling. You said that you thought Ned was meeting the King's Guard at the tower of Joy and five of Ned's men were killed. I've been searching your videos for a theory about why they were meeting, why did they fight, how did both Ned and the King's Guards survive the fight. In which video should I look, or do we have to wait for the next book for these answers? I apologize if you have answered this before in the comments; there were so many.
If Howland Reed shouted, "Don't kill him! He's married to your sister and father to your niece and nephew", that might have saved Ned, but how would Reed know that?
Why did Dayne give up Dawn? He would need it in the war for the Dawn. It could blow his cover but he could have changed the hilt, disguise the blade, rename it, only drawing it in combat or just hide it somewhere until he needed it. The wildlings wouldn't have heard of Dawn.
Returning Dawn to House Dayne would help to convince people Arthur is dead, but it would be plausible that the sword was lost or stolen.
Did he do something at the Tower of Joy to make him ineligible for his station as sword of the morning?
If Ned was caught up in this conspiracy to prepare for the war of the Dawn, meeting with the King's Guards occasionally, why wouldn't his first priority as Hand be preparing the 7 Kingdoms for the war?
Thank you for your videos.
If you dismiss as lies what some people say, and read a whole lot into what some others say, then, yes, you can come to some really bizarre conclusions.
What'd we dismiss ?
The Order of the Green Hand The story about Mace being Wildling born and taken as a child
We didn't dismiss it...we got two different stories...we simply decided to believe the story that makes more sense, and dismiss the one that doesn't...there is a lot of misinformation in the stories people tell...the stories get passed around and by the time one of the POV characters hears it, it is radically different...there is no such thing as a wildling that wields a two handed greatsword...they don't have much steel north of the wall and even less armor...wielding a weapon such as that requires metal plate from head to heal...they don't even have much armor like that at the wall...the men of the knights watch wear boiled leather and chainmail...also, there are only 3-4 characters mentioned in these stories who use a greatsword...they are a specialty weapon and everyone who is known to wield one is accounted for except Mance...then there are the 50 other reasons we cited for believing he was Arthur
You're also dismissing that Tormund also states that Mance was raised a crow (and the crow's a tricksy bird-a line you quote a lot so I know you've read it but left it oddly absent here). Would Osha or Tormund be more likely to have a more accurate story? Osha is not part of Mance's alliance, and likely hasn't met Mance herself while Tormund is close with him.
Thank you for another great Video and some major truths behind the Song ...
Why do you think Ser Daynes companions were so personally convinced to dedicate their whole life to this cause :)?
Thank you very much...That's complicated, but we believe they knew about the "wars to come." The rest of it will be explained in our next video, or maybe two, because the more we delve into this story line the less likely it seems we're going to be able to get it all into 2 videos like we originally planned
This, alongside the true enemy, is my favorite part of your overarching theory. I find it extremely compelling, and have adopted the views after watching your kingsguard videos. 2 correlations I wonder how you think they play out (if I missed you mentioning them, I apologize)-
Ulmer from the Kingswood Brotherhood who supposedly shot Hightower in the hand and was atop the wall when Tormund walked through it. Ulmer would have had to know what Hightower looked like. Do you think he was in on it, as a former enemy? If not, how do you deal with him?
Allliser Thorne was a Targ knight in Robert's Rebellion. He would also know what Dane/Hightower/Whent looked like. How does he fit in the theory?
this is a world where people have no idea what famous people look like...Jaime walked into KL less than a year after leaving and no one knew who he was
I bet Rhagar & the King's Guard had those fire pop albums back then...
Do you think the saying "the North remembers" is actually referring to the true North beyond the wall and its people remember rather than the North below the wall?
we think its probably more akin to the First Men Remember...or at the very least, they remember more than the rest of Westeros
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand cool, you guys do great videos btw stumbled across you and have been binge watching your videos, so good at finding the hidden details. Thanks
Thanks