I am loving totally the KLH M5's you suggested and purchased because of our recommendation. I am getting my SimAudio Moon CD-1 that has a Burr Brown. I am trying to strategize how to push my system to be the best it can and thinking about what DACS will add value. One person suggested a Border Patrol DAC, which is a very NOS based. Would love to get an update when you have a chance. Love you guys!!!
@@clarice1001nights Firstly, congrats those are excellent speakers. Secondly I heard really good things about the border patrol and may review them in the future.
Not all Chinese DACs sound the same. I’ve tried Topping, SMSL, and Loxjie. I finally settled on the Loxjie D50 with AKM 4499 chip. The Loxjie D50 Sounded the best to me compared to most ESS 9038 Pro chip equipped DACs, which seemed to be all clones made in 2021. Yes, It was a bad year for all DAC manufacturers when having to promptly change their DAC’s heart, the chip, after AKM fire. Chinese DACs allowed many budget minded audiophiles the opportunity to experience great sound without having to spend a ton of money. Yes money may not be an issue for some, but for the majority of music enthusiast I feel Chinese DACs was one of the best things that could’ve happened for the hi-fi community.
the gustard x26 pro is the only to do it right with those ESS chips, but even then it still is not a long term daily driver for me. As for the other dacs with ESS chips...pure trash.
@@bobmenke3211 the test method was done listening to several different genres of music. I used symphony orchestra, female vocals, rock, and pop. Female vocals were most pleasing using the Loxjie D50. Rock and Pop music had good rhythm with good sub-bass. Well recorded symphony orchestra music and chamber music from 2L Audiophile Reference Music really showed how good the AKM4499 chip really is. The AKM “Velvet Sound” is a great description and not an exaggeration. Soundstage and imaging are really good. Center imaging is dead center. Noise-floor is nonexistent. The best sound quality seems to be with USB using ROON on dedicated Windows 10 HTPC. Every ESS based clone DAC I tried all fell short of musicality, soundstage, and imaging. These DACs included Loxjie D30, Topping DX7, SMSL M200 with AKM-4497. The SMSL M200 came in close second place but lacked overall refinement.
Yeah but the Japanese did this in audio on the 80s but they were better at it both in sound production and quality control. Chinese chips have a reputation for a reason
Been saying it for a long time... DACs are getting very tapped out and the performance is very close sonically speaking. I review insane DACs and even at these prices, there are many similarities.
It's a strange feeling - everything that you called disadvantages, I consider advantages 😉 No muddy marketing - only objective measurements and function descriptions. They all sound equally good, just choose the inputs/outputs and functions that you need.
Today all the measurements are great, measurements mean nothing to me. Some implementations can't be measured. I want listening review and comparison of differences.
@@PaulClay46masonWVthose are literally the least reliable source of information possible lol. I swear the only reason this crap flies in the audiophile world is that people can't gauge the quality of a sound system while listening from another one through the internet, cuz if we could probably blind test this stuff remotely the prices thing would change fast, very fast.
IMO your logic is broken. The fact they are mostly similar does not mean they should not exist. It creates competition which lowers the price for people getting into the hobby. Also the filters will be called the same because its describing the function of the filter. What do you want them to call them? Fruit names instead of slow, fast or sharp, soft..etc? Silly.
I came into the comments to say something similar (and did), but allow me to add to yours -- so that other people reading yours will see it -- that a lot of supposedly brand-differentiated consumer durables out there are actually made at the same factory. Every single microwave on the planet comes from the same factory. Most smart phones. A great many kitchen appliances. Etc, etc, etc, etc.
I think he means that they all have the same function, not that they are called the same thing. Nomatter where you go an apple will still be an apple but these are all the same type of apples. Its like they are all red delicious apples. Nothing wrong with a red delicious apple. Good price and tasty but have you ever had a Fuji apple? Thats on a different league.
I've found the Topping D90se (In DAC mode) as extra Clean , Clear & Crisp... Which makes it System Dependent. But when well matched its exceptional. Keeping it for sure
I believe Gisheli labs J2 used an older chip and upgraded/improved in other ways. I wonder if people skipped it because it didn’t have the latest chip. I think it sounds great for the money.
The J2 is an absolute jewel. It pairs really well with class d (crown xls especially) and has better Soundstage than my much more expensive Dacs... J2 with USB is the best bang for the buck I've tried (over a dozen pop dacs)
Agreed j2 is fantastic, best dac I have ever owned. It uses ES9026 PRO which is one that almost no one ever used. They did a fantastic job implementing it.
The filters are the same because they are industry standards in audio. They go for measurements because the better the measurements the better the sound. Quantifiable data means observable results. We should be thanking chinese brands because they raised the bar on cheaper audio. Things that used to cost thousands of dollars are now sub below a thousand bucks generally.
See Golden Sound's videos about how meaningless or manipulated these tests can be. He has an audio analyzer and actually explains how the tests are ran. A well measuring amp can sound worse because it has a compromise in the design that was made to look good in tests.
You think you know what you are talking about, but you don't. I mean that literally, not because you have a different opinion on the matter. "They go for measurements because the better the measurements the better the sound." The fact that we can't measure everything we hear makes that statement false, but we'll ignore that for now. What also makes your statement false is you can't treat objective variables the same as subjective variables. Better measurements is a little vague, and really could mean everything. Some measurements aren't audible, and some are. Either way, a measurement is objective. Better sound is subjective. It can't be linked to any kind of objective factor, because its not. For example, is red a different color than blue? Yes it is, and we can back it up with some measurements. Is red a better color than blue? That's what you're doing. Better sound is subjective. There's no wrong answer, and there's no linking it to an objective variable. "Quantifiable data means observable results. We should be thanking chinese brands because they raised the bar on cheaper audio. Things that used to cost thousands of dollars are now sub below a thousand bucks generally." That's an emotional statement based on personal opinion. Price is not an objective variable. Its completely irrelevant from a scientific point of view. Without some context, there's no way to tell what it is you're talking about. Before you try and argue with me over facts (there's no arguing facts, that's why they're facts), but you'll try anyway. I'm the guy that called out Amir and embarrassed him. I made the claim everything he did was junk science, and there was not a shred of real science being done. You could see that he thought it was funny and didn't think much of me or my claim. But then I proved it. He got mad, pulled the posts to avoid further embarrassment and ignored me from that point forward. You sound like one of his dedicated followers and probably saw the posts I'm referring to. And if you saw the posts you know you're on the loosing end of the argument. But if you insist, I can do it again.
@@AT-wl9yqyou can't tell if red is better than blue, but the point of an amp is to reconstruct sinusoids as faithfully as possible to the source, and that's measurable.
No, that’s not true. I’ve been modding CD players and DACs for 30 years. The greatest difference begins at the source (server or CD transport) and interface (USB, I2S, SPDIF). The analogue stage and DAC chip are secondary. Chips can make a significant difference, more so than you think, but still less than analogue output stage.
I can see this being an issue if you are buying and listening to dozens of audio products but not for the listener that just wants to buy one DAC and move on. I see this as a general issue with youtube reviewers who seem to normalize the insane and unsustainable practice of constant consumerism. Don't look to manufacturers to fill life's void, just have fun!
@@babagandu it’s not junk . Chinese Dacs are very good and useful products . It’s not the main component or weakest component in an audio chain. It does it’s job exceptionally well. If your setup sounds like shit , just because you’re using a low budget Chinese DAC , there’s something else going on .
Most Chinese DAC manufacturers do not make their own screens or remotes. They are from other OEM manufacturers. As for Denafrips, they omitted the screen. Hence, it is seen as different. However, that doesn't take away the fact that Chinese DACs like SMSL, and Toppings are great value for money and they do the job they are supposed to do.
It is really strange that dac companies haven't looked at what has been happening within the guitar digital modelling amplifier market.... As many guitar amps are programmable to offer a whole range of different famous tube and non tube guitar amps samples ....which are now getting surprisingly close to the real thing . ...Now just image a programmable dac with say 10 preset amp sound ranging from full tube sounds Macintosh, quad , decware etc, etc and then some Class A/B. sounds like. First watt, passlabs Audio research and krell etc and then maybe some hybrids and Class D....all in one DAC / preamp. Now that would truly be something amazing ....for all those unable to afford the real deal would be happy with having something say 85% - 90% similar in sound signature. Equally ....if digital recordings are often specially adjusted, remastered and compressed for vinyl then why can't this also be added and included into a dac as a presents ....labelled - vinyl master or something?! I'm sure it may happen one day but it would revolutionise what is currently a very expensive hobby.
Then you are back to a processed sound that is always there. As long as you can turn it off and not hear a processed sound would be fine for most of the purists.
I hear what you're saying about all of these being very similar. They really can be. With regard to the filters, I could definitely be wrong, but I believe that those are baked into the DAC chip by the manufacturer. So, depending on if it's a Sabre, Cirrus Logic, Asahi Kasei etc, you're just switching through filters that are on the chip. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will let me know soon enough. I also completely agree, they chase specs because people buy of the specs instead of what something actually sounds like. If it sounds amazing who cares about the specs? Also, what a great time to be an audiophile. It's amazing how good this stuff sounds for the money these days.
i came here to say pretty much this. I tihnk it is more about these various companies using same/similar AKM chips (for ex) and hence using the terminology associated with the spec of that chip. I just saw the descriptions for an AKM DAC and it has these exact same terms for tuning (?) and how each would sound (?) Anyway, yeah. diffierent companies slightly different implementation using chips from same company. maybe signature sound difference between the 2 implementations (?)
Don’t forget that many people read measurements instead of listening to music. Some of them keep the unit turned off: after all it’s the same: the numbers are enough to judge. So it happens that many of them make rankings of dacs they have never owned, tested, or even seen. All based on some we guy’s measurements. And they will tell you how your dac sounds. Isn’t it funny?
@@DaveJ6515 How many of those who bought expensive DACs actually blind tested them tho? Cuz until they do measurements are a better way to judge a product than relying on heavily biased listening
Isn’t the whole point of a dac, to make sure that the source signal is converted as transparently as possible? Unless you want it to colour the source.
Just don't confuse "transparency" with SINAD, I see that happens a lot in these discussions. Poor SINAD can hurt transparency, but after a certain threshold (probably 90dB), higher does not indicate more audible transparency. Just wanted to throw that out there for any newcomers looking at DACs
I've had similar frustrations lately. I understand that having different options at different pricepoints is good, but when there are so many of what is essentially the same product just under different names, it gets pointless. I've turned down a fair few review units lately cause I honestly just do not want to review what is basically the same product 5 times. This sometimes even happens in the SAME company, look at the SMSL SU-8S and the SMSL DO200, they are literally identical other than the knob location
Would you ever consider reviewing the Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200m? I've scoured the internet and there are basically no available measurements. A review from you, especially with your comprehensive review style, would be quite interesting (not to mention - for lack of a better word "trailblazing").
I hear you, and I appreciate the point you're making. But maybe it's time for us to use the DACs we've got, stop buying shit for the sake of it, and focus on things that have a bigger impact on our enjoyment of the music. Like, investigating more artists, looking into room treatment, equipment setup, isolation (from vibration), etc.
Truth is most of us ....will only buy a few dacs...starting with a good budget unit, then upgrade a top chip dac or budget R2R ...and finally maybe get one more expensive R2R if funds allow.
These DAC's all implement the features built into the same handful of AKM and ESS DAC chips without adding anything extra. When it comes to DAC features and performance they're all sufficiently far beyond the point diminishing returns that there is little if any discernable difference between them. But the headline had me hoping for a deal on the Holo Audio May....
This IS crazy. I saw your video while I was scouring RUclips just now thinking how come there are so many new Chinese Dacs with names that are 24 characters long that do the same thing? And then I looked at Schiit and Denifriips, read all the reviews and said man I need to listen to those dacs before I spend 2000 bucks for a discrete DAC. Screw this, I'll just wait another season and see if I find something to replace my old dac.
Great video. I'd love to see the DAC manufacturers incorporate an eARC connection. Bluesound is in part killing it because they offer the simple functionality.
This is the feature that is the most important to me. The optical audio from my Samsung 8K tv that did cost the equivalent to 6000$ (USD) brand new sounds terrible compared to bluetooth and earc audio. So I think most of the cheaper tv's will not sound better and most will sound worse. It is time to move on to earc which will enable more practical features and increase the sound quality a lot.
As a Chinese, I was surprised by knowing those are Chinese brands, but not surprised by your opinion. At least we know it's not that hard to build a pretty good DAC. And these products may make HiFi more popular.
my took was the rme adi-2 fs , cause the eq and other setup possibilities and the build quality. it’s a kind of professional construction and build up quality
It sounds like double standards. Western DACs have no UI only with buttons or labyrinth-like UIs defined as classic or personality. Chinese DACs offer the similar UIs based on low price defined as boring. If you are chasing for Quality of DAC UIs, you can choose same top brands from China, eg. Auralic, Matrix, Lumin...
Having a good analogue preamp and a good output stage with discret parts, through well designed circuits, makes the difference. And ads a lot of charm. What gives character to an hifi device is the singularity of well designed analogue circuits. Analogic still is essential in the digital world.
Just came across your VERY cogent and accurate comments. After many years of feeling the very same thing, after many decades of owning and collecting mostly 2-channel gear, from hand-wiring tube equipment myself, through to class T and D, I felt what you so nicely put into words, so thanks. And I never, ever wanna sell anything, either! Always hoping for breakout innovation by manufacturers. I’ve always hated clones. I happen to be dying for shit to create a 50 white clase, integrated, aimed, primarily at Muirfield motors.
I would almost dare to say that it only shows that they've perfected the design if they all sound the same. Who wants a dac or amp that colors the sound? There are already plenty of those products on the market...
Indeed, preamps section kinda suck on these DACs, that's why I've been messing around on dedicated preamps from different designs. Preamp is equally important just like DAC and even amplifier.
I don't disagree, but you're still using the preamp section of a DAC no matter what -- it's the "A" in DAC. That's what really differentiates most DACs, and what you're paying for in the high-end
The products that are increasingly emerging from manufacturers of Chinese origin have reached a superb level! Period! We pay a fair value for these products! The important thing is the final sound! And not the origin of the manufacturer! Those who make reviews are very afraid to claim that a product from a Chinese manufacturer that costs 500 US dollars (for example) is better than one coming from another country that costs 5,000...Unfortunately any human being can consider himself an audio critic overnight. And I don't say this as direct criticism, understand that! I respect the work that a RUclipsr has to make himself heard! But not running away from the topic of conversation... Blessed are Chinese companies and their gifted professionals who offer us so much for so little making quality audio accessible to those with little money!
Yes the sound is the most important and that is why it is also important that Jay point out that most of them sound the same. And yes the origin of the manufacturer is not important so why glorify the chinese companies when some reviewer on RUclips gave valid critics about their product sounding the same?
@@kato2395 they all sound the same.. good. You're not supposed to be collecting amps or dacs for different sound signatures, you do that with EQ or different headphones. These things are as clean as can be and you won't need more than a single unit. Therefore it's irrelevant for you as a customer if they all sound the same, actually, it's better for you as a customer.
Personally, I think the big problem with most of the dacs mentioned in this video (with perhaps the exception of the VMV) is that they don't pay enough attention to the ANALOG output stage. These companies don't focus enough on the analog section to make their products sound interesting or different from each other. It's really in the analog section of their designs where they could really improve. I'm sure that a separate section/dedicated box with an upgraded power supply; like higher quality caps, resistors and transformer, etc...would give a more special sound to some of these Chinese dacs. It's almost like they focused solely on the DIGITAL aspects of their dacs by using the chips to achieve low noise numbers; while totally ignoring the ANALOG aspects in their products. That's why Burson is very good, and a step up, Imho...because they pay more attention to the analog output stage. Seems like too many of these Chinese companies have forgotten the "A" in DAC. That's why they all seem to have that same sterile sound signature. Imho, I think that the best and easiest way to upgrade the sound of a component, is to add a better analog output supply. Companies other than Chinese (like Linn, Naim, Musical Fidelity, Macintosh, etc) have been doing this for years.
how do you know they are ignoring the analog section though? what sort of technical knowledge you possess to make a stance like that? do you have any suggestions of where to look to say that they're skimming on the analog output stage? not to dismiss your point but you if you make such a statement you need to at least bring up some examples. besides I've had a few burson dac/amps and they're nice imo but nothing exceptional to the already available china-made counterparts.
I agree with most of what you said. The display and remote is the human machine interface that allows us to control our experience. I don't care so much about the shape and color of the box/enclosure.
Some audiophiles (not necessarily you) are 'married' to their gear. I like to think that, yes I love my gear, but . . . it's the music, and how real it sounds in my room, that marries me.
as someone who is from Asia and is exposed to a wide range of these products north of us, what you said about redundancy and no innovation on them is 110% true. Whatever people say about this is not true yadah yadah, do open up your eyes. I feel these manufacturers are just waiting for the next innovation from overseas like vultures waiting to pounce on the next opportunity to mass produce it in cheaper boxes 🙄
@@Jayiyagi how well its built...good measurements... have you ever done a blind abx test with those dac's? that would be real information. I watch your videos and subscribe and i thumbs up the ones I like. My patience with nothing but subjective opinion reviews is wearing a bit. I've been studying this for almost a year. Last year I bought a new audio system...A McIntosh MA5300 integrated with DA-2 dac module and a pair of Martin Logans Electromotion ESL's with a Thorens turntable to boot. I am not a cheapster, I just wish the reviews I've seen were more balanced with objective data. BTW, I got new speaker cables to go with my new system and they are from GearIt and cost 20 bucks a pair.
Thank you Jay, that's what I was trying to express in my comment, maybe I used too many words but I feel too many people have this idea that only specs matter and only the best specs create the best gear. I think that is not correct and correct me if I'm wrong but I think you were making at least a similar point along the way.
The filters are built into the DAC chips, some DACs don't choose to implement all filters. I think it's positive when they put them in. DAC chip measurements are mostly in the inaudible range, but the best DAC/preamp sound performance I've owned is a ESS9018 implementation (LH Labs Geek Pulse X-Infinity, terrible dead company)-massive soundstage and detail retrieval. I also love Questyle AK4490 implementations (CMA 12) implementation. I totally agree that pre-amp performance and other features matter. I want Sub and HDMI eARC in an affordable DAC/preamp. Cmon Chinese DAC manufacturer(s), give me what I want.
Hey Jay, just a subscriber from Australia, luv your content, I am upgrading my system and some of your product reviews has been important in my purchase decisions to date, Thankyou for the honesty and the quality video's.
I see people online agonizing about which whatever they should choose, when really everything out there is pretty good. In the bunches of dacs I’ve had I cannot say that I could tell any major difference between any of the filter settings. Decide by what features the unit has and what pleases your eye, not picking between the one that has .00001,distortion as opposed to.00004 - you’re not going to hear the difference.
The vmv d2 i have comes to mind. Not only is it an exceptional dac, but the output is as good as the topping pre90. Now paired this with a topping pa5 and i'm blown away how good everything is sounding. Go big or go home
I had a Matrix Mini I Pro 3 which is very functional since it has Airplay2 etc but I recently upgraded to a Denafrips Pontus 2 which is clearly a big step up. Musicality, timing , tonality , dark background , analogue sound etc. Suits my system very well. I’m sure the Holo May or Terminator 2 is even better. Unless they come up with much better chips ( which will happen in the future ) , it’s not for me atm.
Out of my Dozen Dacs my Burson Composer is by farrrr my Favorite from the down under 'bringing the Thunder' 🇦🇹 Str8 dac No headphone amp included I love that ! Espically the 4x double descrete Op-amps are interchangable and Sparkos SS3602 brought out some serious detail refinement but $90 bucks each ! Thanks Jay
@@clivesutcliffe487 Mine was built in Australia , But personally i have nothing against buying China Fi some of the best audio gear by pricepoint is made in China . I will put my (Chinese) Doge 10 integrated amp with Kt120 power tubes/Brimar Pre-tubes up against any amp in its pricepoint ! Amp sold under the Lua bran for $6400 U.S. but the Doge took it a step furher by adding all Clarity caps as notch filters and the rest of the caps are Nichicon and Mains/output transformer are Z10 core steel not many tube amps are this powerful in terms of Density/fullness/attack/dynamics I paid 2k U.S. and I have had the Doge for over a year with no problems Doge under sold the amp and I have over 14 solid state amps nothing comes close in performace to the Chinese Doge its a GIANT KILLER @2k and only 59 pounds 😆
2:32 Yes, they have something common in their DACs. This is DAC microchip that provides those filters in 'hardware'? So the filters get same names as specified in some datasheet of the DAC microchip.
I totally agree with your points Jay,However sometimes it’s a budget issue and you try to find the best unit in your price range unfortunately.I am saving for a used Gustard as being retired you buy what you can afford.In a perfect world I would purchase an RME or Lake People DAC
I have an X16 alongside a topping pre90. Sound is phenomenal with my power which is an eval-1 with the input buffer bypassed. I try to spend as little as possible without compromising the sound so if you're on budget I'd say this is the way to go
All these Chinese brands being very similar is normal. They all pull from the same parts bins.... also allows them to keep prices down. They don't all sound the same but many are very similar. I had several and all the ones ASR has tested the pre-amps are fine... your mad. When it comes to SINAD its not everything BUT it is important and there's research to back that up. If you want to achieve 16 or 24 but audio SINAD will have to be considered. But clearly that much dynamic range or freq range isn't necessary because people like vinyl (about 10bit/32khz). I'm not the type to pay extra for botique gear so I don't see a problem with what Chi-Fi is doing other than its become boaring and predictable but its giving the comman man great performance for less and taking money away from the fake pretentious a-holes selling snake oil.
Dacs should sound the same if they are doing their job right. Exotic, esoteric dacs that sound different are acting like an expensive sound profile. This is the most advanced, high fidelity element in the hifi chain. Get a good performing, low distortion dac and then use dsp or eq to change the sound to taste. Don’t waste your money on outdated technology to do it. Also if you can hear vast differences and don’t believe in the importance of measurements do some level matched, blind ABX testing to see if you can even tell the difference between any DAC, not just the Chinese brand ones.
Always great to hear comments from Jay and his friend Toujan (spelling?). An unusual "take" but an enjoyable one. Featurewise, it's hard to beat the RME ADI-2 FS. A lot of creativity went into that DAC, which is really a DAC/Pre-amp/Equalizer/Headphone amp. I recall that both of you guys appreciated those features and the "audiophile" quality of each feature. Or then there are the DAC-makers such as Chord, Schiit, Denafrips, who generally don't bother to be anything but a pure DAC. With the Chinese DACs (especially in the sub $1000 range), I think they treat the pre-amp function the way PC monitors and TVs treat the "inbuilt speaker" function. That is, they expect anyone looking for serious sound to use an external pre-amp or integrated amp, rather than feeding the DAC directly into a power amp. Or in the case of monitors with internal speakers, they expect the serious user to have external speakers. It's just a convenience to include a very low-quality function for the short term, IMO. People don't really want to "pay" for internal speakers on their PC monitor, and I suppose they don't want to pay for a "good" pre-amp on something that is supposed to be a DAC (only). So the Chinese thought on low-quality pre-amps (and headphone amps) for somewhat "low-budget" DACs is not necessarily wrong, but the argument could be made that these should either match the quality of the DAC or be left off altogether. Personally I don't mind the ultra-cheap "throw ins" but the consumer should realize what they are getting in terms of quality. As to "chasing SINAD measurements", a similar thing was done in the 1970's, especially by the Japanese brands. Their amplifiers/receivers were chasing THD (total harmonic distortion) numbers rather than improved sound. They did sound good, but squeezing out the last bit of harmonic distortion made no difference to the listener, and most audiophiles seemed to realize this. So you'd get a few renegades like McIntosh and Harmon/Kardon who put less emphasis on THD, and they had their own followings.
That doesn't mean that schiit or ifi or chord is objectively better just because some people think you have to pay certain amount of money for a dac or amp to be good.
RME improves its DAC's features and UI over time and adds features so that you don't have to buy new every few years to get innovation. Of course each device type has limits especially when it gets older but they have implemented good long-term support
I can't speak for all Chinese DACs but the Holo May KTE is a keeper and ranks better in my opinion than the dCS Bartok. And yes I have auditioned it along with other high-end DACs.
I think that it's all about the chip based DACs. The R2R DACs are a completely different story - especially Holo Audio. Only Denafrips and Musician seem to be from the same factory - but both are worthwhile just the same.
I am not sure what he means by preamp section? Maybe a reference to the output stage after the dac chip. While I have not listened to the new crop of Chinese dacs, I have liked some of the early ones like Matrix and really enjoyed that one. After decades of dacs, I have settled for now on a British model from Prism Sound the Lyra. I do also use a Chinese made ifi for my desktop setup.
I always looked to Auralic or Matrix Audio for high quality and can now add Denafrips to Chinese top tier. For everything else, its now about value for money - Topping, SMSL, Gustard are the value kings and i have had products from all 3 over the years. Head to Shenzhen Audio or Linsoul and there are a ton of smaller brands that all do similar things. I love my Shanling M8, but who else in the west buys Shanling with confidence? The problem is the value DAC’s in particular are like scientific instruments, not audiophile products that convey emotion. They engineer for the numbers, not for listening experience. The arguments on objective vs subjective are dull but not everyone has golden ears so most will never hear the difference - they convince themselves they now have the “best” and train their ear to like it. This keeps shifting product and keeps RUclipsrs and reviewers employed, so no one challenges the situation until consumers become fatigued and stop buying.
Sounds like they sound audibly transparent. This is good. I look forward to the day when most everything is audibly transparent and people can focus on features and UI.
You can somewhat do this today I think. It's just that people are fighting their own perceptions of "audibly transparent" or what sounds like "real music" to them. Speakers and room are still the biggest differences though
If you had listened to the average stereo that was available in the 1970's, then you would appreciate the progress that had been made in the overall fidelity of even inexpensive equipment.
Well, some weren't all that bad. And there were a few great speakers out there too. But yeah, there was a lot of low end crap "all-in-one" budget systems too. When I moved into my dorm in 1976, we all sought out the few guys who had brought some nice rigs with them. It was for many, like really hearing their vinyl for the first time in how good it could sound. Advent, Polk, Klipsch, and JBL ruled the roosts. One guy had a quad system. Spooky to listen to in the dark after only hearing mono and stereo.
Chinese DACs are great but as you rightly point out their preamp sections are far from perfect. R2R DACs are fantastic as long as you do not try to connect your TV to them: according to John Darko there are lip sync issues. My imaginary ideal home office setup consists of a pair of Dynaudio LYD5, a silent PC running Audirvana and an excellent sub 800 USD DAC/preamp, linked to a TV. Any suggestions?
Personally, I don't see a problem. Just some years ago, one could buy a "name brand" American or European DAC for literally 10x the price of these "Chinese DAC's" for worse sound quality. And that's all the choice one had..
I have been looking for a new pair of bookshelf speakers and an amp to drive them. I wound up with an SMSL and Schiit amps on my desktop and was trying to decide if the Schiit was worth paying the extra money. After watching your video... I'm keeping the Schiit. Thanks!
I got tired of uninnovative equipment and last year decided to get a Chord Qutest. Since I bought it it's been one of the most eye-opening and ear opening hi-fi purchases I've ever made. I used to be an analog guy and had this idea that analog was better and vinyl records were better sound quality but I hated dealing with the hassle of playback. Now since I got the chord I sold off my Rega planar 6 and most of my records and I mostly stream now
I respectfully and firmly disagree about DACs having their own sound as a good thing. If you want products with their own sound, you must turn to turntables, tape, loudspeakers and headphones, since they can’t help having their own sound, due to their own technology. 😉 The job of any DAC is to be as precise and transparent as possible, and most are, which is a reason to celebrate the current state of technology. You can still tweak the sound after the DAC, or should I say, you _cannot_ avoid tweaking the sound after them, since any loudspeaker is very different, and so are room acoustics. 😉 The same happens with headphones, since they all have their own sound signature, no matter what. Most people who lived this hobby before digital was mainstream (like I did) understand how bad it was to have the inconsistency of analogue sources, and most audio engineers (the ones that recorded most of the music you probably listen) would have loved to have such reliable and transparent recording formats as digital has become for quite a while now (don’t mistake the analogue sound processing studio gear that many love for the actual recording format). But if you really want to change the sound of recorded music to your listening preferences, you’re still in a much better time for that!🙂 You can buy analogue studio gear which adds its own color to the sound, and insert it after the DAC, before the amplifier. You can still buy some of them (like SSL summing boxes and others) brand new today, or you can resort to the used market (it isn’t going to be cheap, but the audiophile world often isn’t either). Asking any dac to have its own sound is asking for it to distort the audio signal in some way, and that’s not their job. There are several ways of adding sound signatures after the digital to analogue conversion. 🙂
Of course mate - they use parts that are the most workable and affordable. Don't need to make your own remote ... and sometimes they make the same menus because they figure you want it to do the same thing, effectively.
In all honesty, I had a hard time hearing any difference between my $1700 Denafrips Pontus 2 and $700 Topping D90 (4499). Maybe my hearing isn't as sharp as others. I've also owned dacs from Gustard, Schiit and SMSL. The only one I truly disliked was my Schiit Gungnir Multibit. It sounded muffled and dull to me. Good thing about these dacs is they have solid resale value. After seeing Zeos' review of the FiiO K9 Pro ESS, I bought it and plan on sticking with it for a while.
This is interesting. Here in Australia, there is a used denafrips for sales every week or two. But none for months for those identical sounding mid range topping smsl DACs.
Actually, a DAC is just a DAC. You can buy a DAC these days for $100 hat is most likely better than the sum of the components in the recording/mastering process. The nice thing the Chinese did for us is bring the price way down to the point that what differences you are listening to is most likely the microphone /mixing board etc. back in the studio and the speakers/headphones you are using.
this video made me realize it’s like “Yes you’re all wrong” type of shit i was considering a SMSL or Topping stack and now idk what i should but anymore lmfaoooo
I just bought the Xiangsheng 03B Dac 211.00 dollars with shipping, in my system it sounds much better then my smsl su-9n, and that’s without changing the op amps on the 03B which I am to the Sparkos Labs. The Xiangsheng uses the PCM1794A so go figure.
I do agree. ALL my previous DAC are topping, SMSL etc and every time they all sounds exactly the same. There is no way to do successful AB test between them :D I could not. BUT when i got ARES II, holy moly the difference. HUGE!!! Like huge as i dropped to the floor, smiling.. Never going back, never...
@@miquifaye if the ares 2 sounded muddy and slow. You are doing something wrong or it is something else in your system. Perhaps synergy. Ares 2 is anything but muddy and slow. And this is not about “preference” as much as it is collective date from many people’s feedbacks and opinions.
No Gustard A26? No SMSL D400EX? No Topping E70 Velvet? Hey Jay, you are missing the AK4499EX revolution!!! These Chinese are, again, way ahead of the rest of the world!
i hope you realize filters do generally do the same thing and i think its more determined by the fact that they all use sabre dacs that have filters programmed in them by sabre lol also my smsl su-9 has sound color too lol
I know, you promise not to review a new chinese dac, but actually from S.M.S.L come out a new dac, the du 10, that seems to be quite similar as the vmv d1 se on steroids! I'm planning on getting de vmv d1se but with this new player in the market, i have my doubts. And that because of the great review you did on vmv, that seems the only dac of smsl to be tune to a different direction. Greetings from Argentina! Thanks for sharing your knoledge!
I bought a Aiyima Tube-A3 but it’s the same Suca Audio Tube T3. I changed the some caps to audiophile grade clarity caps about £65, the two op-amps to Muses02 £85, and the tube to two matched NOS Siemens 5654w £18. The sound has massively improved but considering the unit cost £35 I doubt if Aiyima could have hit their intended price point with the stuff I used…
It would be great if my dac had a sub-out or two. My amp while nice is basically has a Vinyl input for mm, two RCA inputs and a pre out. I can get by but a dedicated sub out could be variable say 45 to 120 Hz or so cutoff.
Just as I am entertaining the idea of a new DAC this video comes out. JAY, I just pieced together a system based on your suggestion (Lore Ref - SoundArtist Integrated and BlueSound Node. Do you think this setup would benefit from a DAC instead of using the internal in the Node and if so what might be a good fit in this system?
Chinese companies make affordable DACs with extremely high end performance. Audiophiles: Nooooo, this can not be. Good stuff is supposed to cost 15 times more, done by some old American/European guys with esoteric snake oil talk.
If they sound great and offer excellent value for the money, what's the issue? Even if they are quite similar or source identical-or at least comparable-components, what's the problem? This benefits the consumer. Increased competition and variety mean you're more likely to find one on sale, allowing you to choose based on price and availability. You’ve raised valid points regarding the UI and pre-amp sections, but ultimately, if the sound quality is good and the price is affordable, I still don’t see a problem. You could even view these similar Chinese brands as having a distinct personality or set of characteristics typical of the region, much like how German or Swiss products carry their own unique traits. It's not much different.
Wow, you are definitely a different generation. "Back in the day" you'd wait a decade for any real innovative change. I was out of audio for ONE decade and the entire landscape has changed.
If you agree, consider giving us a like on the video to spread the word !
Gustard A18: apos.audio/products/gustard-a18-dac?_pos=13&_sid=5e3df7e26&_ss=r&sca_ref=459032.WbootYrpIv
SMSL DP5: apos.audio/products/smsl-dp5-high-fi-network-enabled-dac-amp?_pos=1&_sid=d686f446d&_ss=r&sca_ref=459032.WbootYrpIv
SMSL M400: apos.audio/products/smsl-m400-mqa-dac?_pos=1&_sid=c9ee702ab&_ss=r&sca_ref=459032.WbootYrpIv
Loxjie D50: www.loxjie-audio.com/productshow.asp?id=158
Topping X Shenzhen EX5: shenzhenaudio.com/products/topping-ex5-mqa-support-dual-es9038q2m-dac-bluetooth-5-0-ldac-dsd512-pcm-768khz-hi-res-audio-hifi-decoder-headphone-amplifier
SMSL d1 se: apos.audio/products/smsl-vmv-d1se-mqa-dac?_pos=1&_sid=c5f7a1ec3&_ss=r&&sca_ref=459032.WbootYrpIv&sca_source=apos.audio/products/smsl-vmv-d1se-mqa-dac?_pos=1&_sid=c5f7a1ec3&_ss=r
amzn.to/3z8KxSH
shenzhenaudio.com/products/s-m-s-l-vmv-d1se-ess-es9038ro-chips-high-resolution-usb-dac-supports-mqa-decoding-dsd512-bluetooth-5-0-decoder
Related Videos:
The Headphone Shows' video on SINAD: ruclips.net/video/DlwIGPEhfGU/видео.html
SMSL VMV D1SE: ruclips.net/video/mUR8kLlPyfY/видео.html
SMSL M400 review: ruclips.net/video/6A33XvSX8rI/видео.html
Topping D90 review: ruclips.net/video/C0ziSsO5LKQ/видео.html
Burson Playmate 2: ruclips.net/video/Wx12k3qUu5E/видео.html
Burson Conductor 3: ruclips.net/video/3I-C9BtPa8I/видео.html
Burson Timekeeper 3i review: ruclips.net/video/hBDkd-DDjfA/видео.html
Burson Soloist 3x review: ruclips.net/video/4PG0taEZVH8/видео.html
Burson Funk review: ruclips.net/video/EkqkJ5P5Y2k/видео.html
I am loving totally the KLH M5's you suggested and purchased because of our recommendation. I am getting my SimAudio Moon CD-1 that has a Burr Brown.
I am trying to strategize how to push my system to be the best it can and thinking about what DACS will add value. One person suggested a Border Patrol DAC, which is a very NOS based. Would love to get an update when you have a chance.
Love you guys!!!
Hi Jay, Please review the Orchard Audio Starkrimson Stereo Ultra (with Upgraded Power Rail Capacitance).
@@clarice1001nights Firstly, congrats those are excellent speakers. Secondly I heard really good things about the border patrol and may review them in the future.
@@tallpaull9367 Not sure if Orchard Audio would want me to but I will def consider it if he ever reaches out. Cheers
@@Jayiyagi I bought the KLHs because of your recommendation. Would the Gustard x 18 or the Loxjie 50 be ok. I might be interested depending on them
Not all Chinese DACs sound the same. I’ve tried Topping, SMSL, and Loxjie. I finally settled on the Loxjie D50 with AKM 4499 chip. The Loxjie D50 Sounded the best to me compared to most ESS 9038 Pro chip equipped DACs, which seemed to be all clones made in 2021. Yes, It was a bad year for all DAC manufacturers when having to promptly change their DAC’s heart, the chip, after AKM fire. Chinese DACs allowed many budget minded audiophiles the opportunity to experience great sound without having to spend a ton of money. Yes money may not be an issue for some, but for the majority of music enthusiast I feel Chinese DACs was one of the best things that could’ve happened for the hi-fi community.
can you explain your test method of determining what dacs sound best and explain what that means?
the gustard x26 pro is the only to do it right with those ESS chips, but even then it still is not a long term daily driver for me. As for the other dacs with ESS chips...pure trash.
@@bobmenke3211 the test method was done listening to several different genres of music. I used symphony orchestra, female vocals, rock, and pop. Female vocals were most pleasing using the Loxjie D50. Rock and Pop music had good rhythm with good sub-bass. Well recorded symphony orchestra music and chamber music from 2L Audiophile Reference Music really showed how good the AKM4499 chip really is. The AKM “Velvet Sound” is a great description and not an exaggeration. Soundstage and imaging are really good. Center imaging is dead center. Noise-floor is nonexistent. The best sound quality seems to be with USB using ROON on dedicated Windows 10 HTPC. Every ESS based clone DAC I tried all fell short of musicality, soundstage, and imaging. These DACs included Loxjie D30, Topping DX7, SMSL M200 with AKM-4497. The SMSL M200 came in close second place but lacked overall refinement.
All dacs sound the same, well if it’s made correctly. It has a simple job to do after all.
Yeah but the Japanese did this in audio on the 80s but they were better at it both in sound production and quality control.
Chinese chips have a reputation for a reason
Your honesty is refreshing - well done!
Been saying it for a long time... DACs are getting very tapped out and the performance is very close sonically speaking. I review insane DACs and even at these prices, there are many similarities.
It's a strange feeling - everything that you called disadvantages, I consider advantages 😉 No muddy marketing - only objective measurements and function descriptions. They all sound equally good, just choose the inputs/outputs and functions that you need.
Today all the measurements are great, measurements mean nothing to me. Some implementations can't be measured. I want listening review and comparison of differences.
objective measurements don't really tell you shit about sound quality. Only thing it does is that it doesn't sound like total a distorted mess
@@PaulClay46masonWVthose are literally the least reliable source of information possible lol.
I swear the only reason this crap flies in the audiophile world is that people can't gauge the quality of a sound system while listening from another one through the internet, cuz if we could probably blind test this stuff remotely the prices thing would change fast, very fast.
IMO your logic is broken. The fact they are mostly similar does not mean they should not exist. It creates competition which lowers the price for people getting into the hobby. Also the filters will be called the same because its describing the function of the filter. What do you want them to call them? Fruit names instead of slow, fast or sharp, soft..etc? Silly.
I came into the comments to say something similar (and did), but allow me to add to yours -- so that other people reading yours will see it -- that a lot of supposedly brand-differentiated consumer durables out there are actually made at the same factory. Every single microwave on the planet comes from the same factory. Most smart phones. A great many kitchen appliances. Etc, etc, etc, etc.
I think he means that they all have the same function, not that they are called the same thing. Nomatter where you go an apple will still be an apple but these are all the same type of apples. Its like they are all red delicious apples. Nothing wrong with a red delicious apple. Good price and tasty but have you ever had a Fuji apple? Thats on a different league.
I dont disagree. I just opened my Fiio K7 and am enjoying it a lot but it is strangely similar to the topping DX3 pro plus.
I think the point is a lot of these companies ARE the same company behind the scenes which is not actually competition.
@@mikeg2491proof?
I've found the Topping D90se (In DAC mode) as extra Clean , Clear & Crisp... Which makes it System Dependent. But when well matched its exceptional. Keeping it for sure
Not more "dependent", just more revealing from the original source. Lower fidelity / more colored DACs have much more chance of bad matching.
I believe Gisheli labs J2 used an older chip and upgraded/improved in other ways. I wonder if people skipped it because it didn’t have the latest chip. I think it sounds great for the money.
The J2 is an absolute jewel. It pairs really well with class d (crown xls especially) and has better Soundstage than my much more expensive Dacs...
J2 with USB is the best bang for the buck I've tried (over a dozen pop dacs)
Would have bought that if I didn't have the D70s.
I love the D42 inverious, it's a gem, although the F1260 factoid had a sweeter mid band...
Agreed j2 is fantastic, best dac I have ever owned. It uses ES9026 PRO which is one that almost no one ever used. They did a fantastic job implementing it.
The filters are the same because they are industry standards in audio.
They go for measurements because the better the measurements the better the sound.
Quantifiable data means observable results. We should be thanking chinese brands because they raised the bar on cheaper audio. Things that used to cost thousands of dollars are now sub below a thousand bucks generally.
See Golden Sound's videos about how meaningless or manipulated these tests can be. He has an audio analyzer and actually explains how the tests are ran. A well measuring amp can sound worse because it has a compromise in the design that was made to look good in tests.
Like dieselgate?
Haha, I tried these cheap chinese DAC already. None can compared to a good reputable DAC from the West or Japan
You think you know what you are talking about, but you don't. I mean that literally, not because you have a different opinion on the matter.
"They go for measurements because the better the measurements the better the sound."
The fact that we can't measure everything we hear makes that statement false, but we'll ignore that for now. What also makes your statement false is you can't treat objective variables the same as subjective variables. Better measurements is a little vague, and really could mean everything. Some measurements aren't audible, and some are. Either way, a measurement is objective. Better sound is subjective. It can't be linked to any kind of objective factor, because its not. For example, is red a different color than blue? Yes it is, and we can back it up with some measurements. Is red a better color than blue? That's what you're doing. Better sound is subjective. There's no wrong answer, and there's no linking it to an objective variable.
"Quantifiable data means observable results. We should be thanking chinese brands because they raised the bar on cheaper audio. Things that used to cost thousands of dollars are now sub below a thousand bucks generally."
That's an emotional statement based on personal opinion. Price is not an objective variable. Its completely irrelevant from a scientific point of view. Without some context, there's no way to tell what it is you're talking about.
Before you try and argue with me over facts (there's no arguing facts, that's why they're facts), but you'll try anyway. I'm the guy that called out Amir and embarrassed him. I made the claim everything he did was junk science, and there was not a shred of real science being done. You could see that he thought it was funny and didn't think much of me or my claim. But then I proved it. He got mad, pulled the posts to avoid further embarrassment and ignored me from that point forward. You sound like one of his dedicated followers and probably saw the posts I'm referring to. And if you saw the posts you know you're on the loosing end of the argument. But if you insist, I can do it again.
@@AT-wl9yqyou can't tell if red is better than blue, but the point of an amp is to reconstruct sinusoids as faithfully as possible to the source, and that's measurable.
Guys, the difference in sound between DACS can be mostly attributed to the analogue stage rather than the chip used.
I am sure you realise that. 🙂
Where did you get that from ?.
right thats what makes high end dac expensive
Exactly...
No, that’s not true. I’ve been modding CD players and DACs for 30 years. The greatest difference begins at the source (server or CD transport) and interface (USB, I2S, SPDIF). The analogue stage and DAC chip are secondary. Chips can make a significant difference, more so than you think, but still less than analogue output stage.
@@JohnLee-db9zt it's not „server or CD transport” anymore. for that part it's bit-perfect or anything else.
I can see this being an issue if you are buying and listening to dozens of audio products but not for the listener that just wants to buy one DAC and move on. I see this as a general issue with youtube reviewers who seem to normalize the insane and unsustainable practice of constant consumerism. Don't look to manufacturers to fill life's void, just have fun!
A lot of the Chinese fans come with a similar remote as the DACs too. It is just a generic remote used for many appliances...
That's the point Jay made: A generic DAC with a generic remote, a cookie cutter DAC so to say.
@@hugobloemers4425 in short China junk
@@babagandu it’s not junk . Chinese Dacs are very good and useful products . It’s not the main component or weakest component in an audio chain. It does it’s job exceptionally well. If your setup sounds like shit , just because you’re using a low budget Chinese DAC , there’s something else going on .
There are differences here though. I find SMSL remotes to be more responsive compared to those from Topping for instance.
Most Chinese DAC manufacturers do not make their own screens or remotes. They are from other OEM manufacturers. As for Denafrips, they omitted the screen. Hence, it is seen as different. However, that doesn't take away the fact that Chinese DACs like SMSL, and Toppings are great value for money and they do the job they are supposed to do.
That probably also applies to most non Chinese DACs lol.
It is really strange that dac companies haven't looked at what has been happening within the guitar digital modelling amplifier market.... As many guitar amps are programmable to offer a whole range of different famous tube and non tube guitar amps samples ....which are now getting surprisingly close to the real thing . ...Now just image a programmable dac with say 10 preset amp sound ranging from full tube sounds Macintosh, quad , decware etc, etc and then some Class A/B. sounds like. First watt, passlabs Audio research and krell etc and then maybe some hybrids and Class D....all in one DAC / preamp.
Now that would truly be something amazing ....for all those unable to afford the real deal would be happy with having something say 85% - 90% similar in sound signature.
Equally ....if digital recordings are often specially adjusted, remastered and compressed for vinyl then why can't this also be added and included into a dac as a presents ....labelled - vinyl master or something?!
I'm sure it may happen one day but it would revolutionise what is currently a very expensive hobby.
I wholeheartedly agree, but both Subjectivists and Objectivists call themselves purist and would poo poo it.
Then you are back to a processed sound that is always there. As long as you can turn it off and not hear a processed sound would be fine for most of the purists.
The VMP DAC does a similar thing at frame 10:29.
I hear what you're saying about all of these being very similar. They really can be. With regard to the filters, I could definitely be wrong, but I believe that those are baked into the DAC chip by the manufacturer. So, depending on if it's a Sabre, Cirrus Logic, Asahi Kasei etc, you're just switching through filters that are on the chip. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will let me know soon enough.
I also completely agree, they chase specs because people buy of the specs instead of what something actually sounds like. If it sounds amazing who cares about the specs?
Also, what a great time to be an audiophile. It's amazing how good this stuff sounds for the money these days.
true even realtek onboards sound acceptable nowadays
i came here to say pretty much this. I tihnk it is more about these various companies using same/similar AKM chips (for ex) and hence using the terminology associated with the spec of that chip. I just saw the descriptions for an AKM DAC and it has these exact same terms for tuning (?) and how each would sound (?) Anyway, yeah. diffierent companies slightly different implementation using chips from same company. maybe signature sound difference between the 2 implementations (?)
@@iikatinggangsengii2471it depends on your definition of acceptable.
Don’t forget that many people read measurements instead of listening to music. Some of them keep the unit turned off: after all it’s the same: the numbers are enough to judge. So it happens that many of them make rankings of dacs they have never owned, tested, or even seen. All based on some we guy’s measurements. And they will tell you how your dac sounds. Isn’t it funny?
@@DaveJ6515 How many of those who bought expensive DACs actually blind tested them tho? Cuz until they do measurements are a better way to judge a product than relying on heavily biased listening
Isn’t the whole point of a dac, to make sure that the source signal is converted as transparently as possible? Unless you want it to colour the source.
Yes. And that is exactly what the vast majority of them do
Just don't confuse "transparency" with SINAD, I see that happens a lot in these discussions. Poor SINAD can hurt transparency, but after a certain threshold (probably 90dB), higher does not indicate more audible transparency. Just wanted to throw that out there for any newcomers looking at DACs
Bland sound doesn’t mean transparency bro
I've had similar frustrations lately.
I understand that having different options at different pricepoints is good, but when there are so many of what is essentially the same product just under different names, it gets pointless.
I've turned down a fair few review units lately cause I honestly just do not want to review what is basically the same product 5 times.
This sometimes even happens in the SAME company, look at the SMSL SU-8S and the SMSL DO200, they are literally identical other than the knob location
Would you ever consider reviewing the Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200m? I've scoured the internet and there are basically no available measurements. A review from you, especially with your comprehensive review style, would be quite interesting (not to mention - for lack of a better word "trailblazing").
you might be cause of frustration.
I absolutely love the performance of my L.K.S Audio LKS MH-DA004. I’ve had it for couple of years and it works really well with my audio system.
What makes a huge difference in sound are speakers and room acoustics
Most of us already know that.
I hear you, and I appreciate the point you're making. But maybe it's time for us to use the DACs we've got, stop buying shit for the sake of it, and focus on things that have a bigger impact on our enjoyment of the music. Like, investigating more artists, looking into room treatment, equipment setup, isolation (from vibration), etc.
Truth is most of us ....will only buy a few dacs...starting with a good budget unit, then upgrade a top chip dac or budget R2R ...and finally maybe get one more expensive R2R if funds allow.
These DAC's all implement the features built into the same handful of AKM and ESS DAC chips without adding anything extra. When it comes to DAC features and performance they're all sufficiently far beyond the point diminishing returns that there is little if any discernable difference between them. But the headline had me hoping for a deal on the Holo Audio May....
This IS crazy. I saw your video while I was scouring RUclips just now thinking how come there are so many new Chinese Dacs with names that are 24 characters long that do the same thing? And then I looked at Schiit and Denifriips, read all the reviews and said man I need to listen to those dacs before I spend 2000 bucks for a discrete DAC. Screw this, I'll just wait another season and see if I find something to replace my old dac.
Great video. I'd love to see the DAC manufacturers incorporate an eARC connection. Bluesound is in part killing it because they offer the simple functionality.
Not many people care about this feature tbh. i personally just use optical from my TV
I can't believe that any HIFI components retailing over 1K don't include an eARC input. This is unacceptable and retarded
@@juliangst totally disagree. One remote is a big convenience feature. My toddler makes needing multiple remotes a nightmare.
@@juliangst You do realize Optical isn't capable of lossless multichannel audio which represent over 90% of the movies?
This is the feature that is the most important to me. The optical audio from my Samsung 8K tv that did cost the equivalent to 6000$ (USD) brand new sounds terrible compared to bluetooth and earc audio.
So I think most of the cheaper tv's will not sound better and most will sound worse. It is time to move on to earc which will enable more practical features and increase the sound quality a lot.
As a Chinese, I was surprised by knowing those are Chinese brands, but not surprised by your opinion. At least we know it's not that hard to build a pretty good DAC. And these products may make HiFi more popular.
my took was the rme adi-2 fs , cause the eq and other setup possibilities and the build quality. it’s a kind of professional construction and build up quality
It sounds like double standards. Western DACs have no UI only with buttons or labyrinth-like UIs defined as classic or personality. Chinese DACs offer the similar UIs based on low price defined as boring. If you are chasing for Quality of DAC UIs, you can choose same top brands from China, eg. Auralic, Matrix, Lumin...
Having a good analogue preamp and a good output stage with discret parts, through well designed circuits, makes the difference. And ads a lot of charm. What gives character to an hifi device is the singularity of well designed analogue circuits. Analogic still is essential in the digital world.
You have a point but there is a night and day difference between the psu in a higher grade dacs between Topping and Gustard for instance.
Just came across your VERY cogent and accurate comments. After many years of feeling the very same thing, after many decades of owning and collecting mostly 2-channel gear, from hand-wiring tube equipment myself, through to class T and D, I felt what you so nicely put into words, so thanks. And I never, ever wanna sell anything, either!
Always hoping for breakout innovation by manufacturers. I’ve always hated clones. I happen to be dying for shit to create a 50 white clase, integrated, aimed, primarily at Muirfield motors.
TY so much J 4 keeping it real!!! More outspokenness should lead to change my friend!
I would almost dare to say that it only shows that they've perfected the design if they all sound the same. Who wants a dac or amp that colors the sound? There are already plenty of those products on the market...
Indeed, preamps section kinda suck on these DACs, that's why I've been messing around on dedicated preamps from different designs. Preamp is equally important just like DAC and even amplifier.
What is meant by Preamp section? Im unclear. Are we talking the outputs that are not for Headphones, so Line Outputs?
I don't disagree, but you're still using the preamp section of a DAC no matter what -- it's the "A" in DAC. That's what really differentiates most DACs, and what you're paying for in the high-end
Nuprime Dac-10 is your hero then. Dac and pre are exceptional!! At under 2k.
So glad you said
@@asplmn Hmm. I thought the "A" was as in "Analogue"...
The products that are increasingly emerging from manufacturers of Chinese origin have reached a superb level! Period! We pay a fair value for these products! The important thing is the final sound! And not the origin of the manufacturer! Those who make reviews are very afraid to claim that a product from a Chinese manufacturer that costs 500 US dollars (for example) is better than one coming from another country that costs 5,000...Unfortunately any human being can consider himself an audio critic overnight.
And I don't say this as direct criticism, understand that! I respect the work that a RUclipsr has to make himself heard! But not running away from the topic of conversation... Blessed are Chinese companies and their gifted professionals who offer us so much for so little making quality audio accessible to those with little money!
Yes the sound is the most important and that is why it is also important that Jay point out that most of them sound the same.
And yes the origin of the manufacturer is not important so why glorify the chinese companies when some reviewer on RUclips gave valid critics about their product sounding the same?
@@kato2395 they all sound the same.. good. You're not supposed to be collecting amps or dacs for different sound signatures, you do that with EQ or different headphones. These things are as clean as can be and you won't need more than a single unit. Therefore it's irrelevant for you as a customer if they all sound the same, actually, it's better for you as a customer.
Personally, I think the big problem with most of the dacs mentioned in this video (with perhaps the exception of the VMV) is that they don't pay enough attention to the ANALOG output stage. These companies don't focus enough on the analog section to make their products sound interesting or different from each other. It's really in the analog section of their designs where they could really improve. I'm sure that a separate section/dedicated box with an upgraded power supply; like higher quality caps, resistors and transformer, etc...would give a more special sound to some of these Chinese dacs. It's almost like they focused solely on the DIGITAL aspects of their dacs by using the chips to achieve low noise numbers; while totally ignoring the ANALOG aspects in their products. That's why Burson is very good, and a step up, Imho...because they pay more attention to the analog output stage. Seems like too many of these Chinese companies have forgotten the "A" in DAC. That's why they all seem to have that same sterile sound signature. Imho, I think that the best and easiest way to upgrade the sound of a component, is to add a better analog output supply. Companies other than Chinese (like Linn, Naim, Musical Fidelity, Macintosh, etc) have been doing this for years.
China junk
how do you know they are ignoring the analog section though? what sort of technical knowledge you possess to make a stance like that? do you have any suggestions of where to look to say that they're skimming on the analog output stage?
not to dismiss your point but you if you make such a statement you need to at least bring up some examples. besides I've had a few burson dac/amps and they're nice imo but nothing exceptional to the already available china-made counterparts.
I just got the VMV D1SE hope i made a good buy
I would like to follow up your answer to the ask how you know they are ignoring the analog section please?
Why does this comment sound very ignorant?
I agree with most of what you said. The display and remote is the human machine interface that allows us to control our experience. I don't care so much about the shape and color of the box/enclosure.
Some audiophiles (not necessarily you) are 'married' to their gear. I like to think that, yes I love my gear, but . . . it's the music, and how real it sounds in my room, that marries me.
as someone who is from Asia and is exposed to a wide range of these products north of us, what you said about redundancy and no innovation on them is 110% true. Whatever people say about this is not true yadah yadah, do open up your eyes. I feel these manufacturers are just waiting for the next innovation from overseas like vultures waiting to pounce on the next opportunity to mass produce it in cheaper boxes 🙄
The filters have the same names because they are implemented in the ESS DAC chips by Sabre which all these DACs use.
and measurements do matter whether audible differences it shows quality builds are being produced by the manufacturers
If it’s not audible… How is it showing quality?
If it has a distinct sound .. it a distortion
@@Jayiyagi how well its built...good measurements... have you ever done a blind abx test with those dac's? that would be real information. I watch your videos and subscribe and i thumbs up the ones I like. My patience with nothing but subjective opinion reviews is wearing a bit. I've been studying this for almost a year. Last year I bought a new audio system...A McIntosh MA5300 integrated with DA-2 dac module and a pair of Martin Logans Electromotion ESL's with a Thorens turntable to boot. I am not a cheapster, I just wish the reviews I've seen were more balanced with objective data. BTW, I got new speaker cables to go with my new system and they are from GearIt and cost 20 bucks a pair.
@@glennjones6574 How true, how true!
Thank you Jay, that's what I was trying to express in my comment, maybe I used too many words but I feel too many people have this idea that only specs matter and only the best specs create the best gear. I think that is not correct and correct me if I'm wrong but I think you were making at least a similar point along the way.
The filters are built into the DAC chips, some DACs don't choose to implement all filters. I think it's positive when they put them in. DAC chip measurements are mostly in the inaudible range, but the best DAC/preamp sound performance I've owned is a ESS9018 implementation (LH Labs Geek Pulse X-Infinity, terrible dead company)-massive soundstage and detail retrieval. I also love Questyle AK4490 implementations (CMA 12) implementation. I totally agree that pre-amp performance and other features matter. I want Sub and HDMI eARC in an affordable DAC/preamp. Cmon Chinese DAC manufacturer(s), give me what I want.
The filters are built into the DAC chips and not something programmed by these various manufacturers. That is why they all have the same filters
Hey Jay, just a subscriber from Australia, luv your content, I am upgrading my system and some of your product reviews has been important in my purchase decisions to date,
Thankyou for the honesty and the quality video's.
You've got yourself a new subscriber, love your videos from what I've seen :)
I see people online agonizing about which whatever they should choose, when really everything out there is pretty good. In the bunches of dacs I’ve had I cannot say that I could tell any major difference between any of the filter settings. Decide by what features the unit has and what pleases your eye, not picking between the one that has .00001,distortion as opposed to.00004 - you’re not going to hear the difference.
The vmv d2 i have comes to mind. Not only is it an exceptional dac, but the output is as good as the topping pre90. Now paired this with a topping pa5 and i'm blown away how good everything is sounding. Go big or go home
I had a Matrix Mini I Pro 3 which is very functional since it has Airplay2 etc but I recently upgraded to a Denafrips Pontus 2 which is clearly a big step up. Musicality, timing , tonality , dark background , analogue sound etc. Suits my system very well. I’m sure the Holo May or Terminator 2 is even better. Unless they come up with much better chips ( which will happen in the future ) , it’s not for me atm.
Out of my Dozen Dacs my Burson Composer is by farrrr my Favorite from the down under 'bringing the Thunder'
🇦🇹 Str8 dac No headphone amp included I love that ! Espically the 4x double descrete Op-amps are interchangable and Sparkos SS3602 brought out some serious detail refinement but $90 bucks each ! Thanks Jay
As far as I can tell, Burson products are made in China, even if the design is done in Australia.
@@clivesutcliffe487 Mine was built in Australia ,
But personally i have nothing against buying China Fi some of the best audio gear by pricepoint is made in China .
I will put my (Chinese) Doge 10 integrated amp with Kt120 power tubes/Brimar Pre-tubes up against any amp in its pricepoint ! Amp sold under the Lua bran for $6400 U.S. but the Doge took it a step furher by adding all Clarity caps as notch filters and the rest of the caps are Nichicon and Mains/output transformer are Z10 core steel not many tube amps are this powerful in terms of Density/fullness/attack/dynamics
I paid 2k U.S. and I have had the Doge for over a year with no problems Doge under sold the amp and I have over 14 solid state amps nothing comes close in performace to the Chinese Doge its a GIANT KILLER @2k and only 59 pounds 😆
2:32 Yes, they have something common in their DACs. This is DAC microchip that provides those filters in 'hardware'? So the filters get same names as specified in some datasheet of the DAC microchip.
I totally agree with your points Jay,However sometimes it’s a budget issue and you try to find the best unit in your price range unfortunately.I am saving for a used Gustard as being retired you buy what you can afford.In a perfect world I would purchase an RME or Lake People DAC
I have an X16 alongside a topping pre90. Sound is phenomenal with my power which is an eval-1 with the input buffer bypassed. I try to spend as little as possible without compromising the sound so if you're on budget I'd say this is the way to go
Good information and love the background music!
All these Chinese brands being very similar is normal. They all pull from the same parts bins.... also allows them to keep prices down. They don't all sound the same but many are very similar. I had several and all the ones ASR has tested the pre-amps are fine... your mad. When it comes to SINAD its not everything BUT it is important and there's research to back that up. If you want to achieve 16 or 24 but audio SINAD will have to be considered. But clearly that much dynamic range or freq range isn't necessary because people like vinyl (about 10bit/32khz). I'm not the type to pay extra for botique gear so I don't see a problem with what Chi-Fi is doing other than its become boaring and predictable but its giving the comman man great performance for less and taking money away from the fake pretentious a-holes selling snake oil.
Dacs should sound the same if they are doing their job right. Exotic, esoteric dacs that sound different are acting like an expensive sound profile. This is the most advanced, high fidelity element in the hifi chain. Get a good performing, low distortion dac and then use dsp or eq to change the sound to taste. Don’t waste your money on outdated technology to do it. Also if you can hear vast differences and don’t believe in the importance of measurements do some level matched, blind ABX testing to see if you can even tell the difference between any DAC, not just the Chinese brand ones.
Love what you are saying man
Always great to hear comments from Jay and his friend Toujan (spelling?). An unusual "take" but an enjoyable one.
Featurewise, it's hard to beat the RME ADI-2 FS. A lot of creativity went into that DAC, which is really a DAC/Pre-amp/Equalizer/Headphone amp. I recall that both of you guys appreciated those features and the "audiophile" quality of each feature. Or then there are the DAC-makers such as Chord, Schiit, Denafrips, who generally don't bother to be anything but a pure DAC.
With the Chinese DACs (especially in the sub $1000 range), I think they treat the pre-amp function the way PC monitors and TVs treat the "inbuilt speaker" function. That is, they expect anyone looking for serious sound to use an external pre-amp or integrated amp, rather than feeding the DAC directly into a power amp. Or in the case of monitors with internal speakers, they expect the serious user to have external speakers. It's just a convenience to include a very low-quality function for the short term, IMO.
People don't really want to "pay" for internal speakers on their PC monitor, and I suppose they don't want to pay for a "good" pre-amp on something that is supposed to be a DAC (only). So the Chinese thought on low-quality pre-amps (and headphone amps) for somewhat "low-budget" DACs is not necessarily wrong, but the argument could be made that these should either match the quality of the DAC or be left off altogether. Personally I don't mind the ultra-cheap "throw ins" but the consumer should realize what they are getting in terms of quality.
As to "chasing SINAD measurements", a similar thing was done in the 1970's, especially by the Japanese brands. Their amplifiers/receivers were chasing THD (total harmonic distortion) numbers rather than improved sound. They did sound good, but squeezing out the last bit of harmonic distortion made no difference to the listener, and most audiophiles seemed to realize this. So you'd get a few renegades like McIntosh and Harmon/Kardon who put less emphasis on THD, and they had their own followings.
Thanks for doing the research for the rest of us.
That doesn't mean that schiit or ifi or chord is objectively better just because some people think you have to pay certain amount of money for a dac or amp to be good.
spending less on DAC, and larger portion on pre/power/integrate amp maybe a logical choice if you doesn't have unlimited budget
RME improves its DAC's features and UI over time and adds features so that you don't have to buy new every few years to get innovation. Of course each device type has limits especially when it gets older but they have implemented good long-term support
Rme is german...
@@tudorradovici312 Na und?
RME is simply the only brand that supports long term. And stays on top of tech.
@@colanitower Die RME ADI 2 Soldaten sind wieder unterwegs. Crap DAC, crap billignetzteil
I can't speak for all Chinese DACs but the Holo May KTE is a keeper and ranks better in my opinion than the dCS Bartok. And yes I have auditioned it along with other high-end DACs.
i wouldn't say Holo is in this same conversation, what they make is unique
I think that it's all about the chip based DACs. The R2R DACs are a completely different story - especially Holo Audio. Only Denafrips and Musician seem to be from the same factory - but both are worthwhile just the same.
Jay’s Audio is also very good.
MSB discrete is better than the Bartok imo I have owned both.
You are literally regurgitating a conglomerate of RUclips reviewers opinion.
I am not sure what he means by preamp section? Maybe a reference to the output stage after the dac chip. While I have not listened to the new crop of Chinese dacs, I have liked some of the early ones like Matrix and really enjoyed that one. After decades of dacs, I have settled for now on a British model from Prism Sound the Lyra. I do also use a Chinese made ifi for my desktop setup.
Good. Thanks. Spot on. I see this phenomenon with many Chinese products.
I always looked to Auralic or Matrix Audio for high quality and can now add Denafrips to Chinese top tier. For everything else, its now about value for money - Topping, SMSL, Gustard are the value kings and i have had products from all 3 over the years. Head to Shenzhen Audio or Linsoul and there are a ton of smaller brands that all do similar things. I love my Shanling M8, but who else in the west buys Shanling with confidence?
The problem is the value DAC’s in particular are like scientific instruments, not audiophile products that convey emotion. They engineer for the numbers, not for listening experience. The arguments on objective vs subjective are dull but not everyone has golden ears so most will never hear the difference - they convince themselves they now have the “best” and train their ear to like it. This keeps shifting product and keeps RUclipsrs and reviewers employed, so no one challenges the situation until consumers become fatigued and stop buying.
Sounds like they sound audibly transparent. This is good. I look forward to the day when most everything is audibly transparent and people can focus on features and UI.
You can somewhat do this today I think. It's just that people are fighting their own perceptions of "audibly transparent" or what sounds like "real music" to them.
Speakers and room are still the biggest differences though
You must be one of the most boring persons alive.
You probably dont enjoy music, you just like noise.
0:55 and that was why i was so confused how he amassed so many of these same dacs when it doesn't take a genius to see the similarities
Greetings Guys, I like your honesty.
Peace out 🇯🇲🇯🇲
If you had listened to the average stereo that was available in the 1970's, then you would appreciate the progress that had been made in the overall fidelity of even inexpensive equipment.
Well, some weren't all that bad. And there were a few great speakers out there too. But yeah, there was a lot of low end crap "all-in-one" budget systems too. When I moved into my dorm in 1976, we all sought out the few guys who had brought some nice rigs with them. It was for many, like really hearing their vinyl for the first time in how good it could sound. Advent, Polk, Klipsch, and JBL ruled the roosts. One guy had a quad system. Spooky to listen to in the dark after only hearing mono and stereo.
Glad you excluded Denafrips. They are definitely a step above Topping and…
Chinese DACs are great but as you rightly point out their preamp sections are far from perfect. R2R DACs are fantastic as long as you do not try to connect your TV to them: according to John Darko there are lip sync issues. My imaginary ideal home office setup consists of a pair of Dynaudio LYD5, a silent PC running Audirvana and an excellent sub 800 USD DAC/preamp, linked to a TV. Any suggestions?
Personally, I don't see a problem. Just some years ago, one could buy a "name brand" American or European DAC for literally 10x the price of these "Chinese DAC's" for worse sound quality. And that's all the choice one had..
So the Matrix Element X is bad too?
I have been looking for a new pair of bookshelf speakers and an amp to drive them. I wound up with an SMSL and Schiit amps on my desktop and was trying to decide if the Schiit was worth paying the extra money. After watching your video... I'm keeping the Schiit. Thanks!
I got tired of uninnovative equipment and last year decided to get a Chord Qutest. Since I bought it it's been one of the most eye-opening and ear opening hi-fi purchases I've ever made. I used to be an analog guy and had this idea that analog was better and vinyl records were better sound quality but I hated dealing with the hassle of playback. Now since I got the chord I sold off my Rega planar 6 and most of my records and I mostly stream now
I have one paired with my buchardt. Love it. I actually use the d70 with a pair of older Harbeth speakers. I'm happy with both combos
Good choice
Holy smoke !
I have had a Chord Qutest, no better or worse than any others I have, even one that cost £100.
Please tell me you ripped the rare records? Best master = best sound quality more often than not.
I respectfully and firmly disagree about DACs having their own sound as a good thing.
If you want products with their own sound, you must turn to turntables, tape, loudspeakers and headphones, since they can’t help having their own sound, due to their own technology. 😉
The job of any DAC is to be as precise and transparent as possible, and most are, which is a reason to celebrate the current state of technology.
You can still tweak the sound after the DAC, or should I say, you _cannot_ avoid tweaking the sound after them, since any loudspeaker is very different, and so are room acoustics. 😉
The same happens with headphones, since they all have their own sound signature, no matter what.
Most people who lived this hobby before digital was mainstream (like I did) understand how bad it was to have the inconsistency of analogue sources, and most audio engineers (the ones that recorded most of the music you probably listen) would have loved to have such reliable and transparent recording formats as digital has become for quite a while now (don’t mistake the analogue sound processing studio gear that many love for the actual recording format).
But if you really want to change the sound of recorded music to your listening preferences, you’re still in a much better time for that!🙂
You can buy analogue studio gear which adds its own color to the sound, and insert it after the DAC, before the amplifier.
You can still buy some of them (like SSL summing boxes and others) brand new today, or you can resort to the used market (it isn’t going to be cheap, but the audiophile world often isn’t either).
Asking any dac to have its own sound is asking for it to distort the audio signal in some way, and that’s not their job.
There are several ways of adding sound signatures after the digital to analogue conversion. 🙂
Of course mate - they use parts that are the most workable and affordable. Don't need to make your own remote ... and sometimes they make the same menus because they figure you want it to do the same thing, effectively.
In all honesty, I had a hard time hearing any difference between my $1700 Denafrips Pontus 2 and $700 Topping D90 (4499). Maybe my hearing isn't as sharp as others. I've also owned dacs from Gustard, Schiit and SMSL. The only one I truly disliked was my Schiit Gungnir Multibit. It sounded muffled and dull to me. Good thing about these dacs is they have solid resale value. After seeing Zeos' review of the FiiO K9 Pro ESS, I bought it and plan on sticking with it for a while.
Wich dac are you recomending at the moment?
This is interesting. Here in Australia, there is a used denafrips for sales every week or two. But none for months for those identical sounding mid range topping smsl DACs.
Actually, a DAC is just a DAC. You can buy a DAC these days for $100 hat is most likely better than the sum of the components in the recording/mastering process. The nice thing the Chinese did for us is bring the price way down to the point that what differences you are listening to is most likely the microphone /mixing board etc. back in the studio and the speakers/headphones you are using.
this video made me realize
it’s like “Yes you’re all wrong” type of shit
i was considering a SMSL or Topping stack and now idk what i should but anymore lmfaoooo
hahahaha, nice video
its an old issue going on with Chinese audio industry and its nice you mentioned it out
Excellent point about the preamp sections. What good is “perfect” decoding if the preamp screws it up?
Maybe they all got Amir as their consultant? 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
I just bought the Xiangsheng 03B Dac 211.00 dollars with shipping, in my system it sounds much better then my smsl su-9n, and that’s without changing the op amps on the 03B which I am to the Sparkos Labs. The Xiangsheng uses the PCM1794A so go figure.
I do agree. ALL my previous DAC are topping, SMSL etc and every time they all sounds exactly the same. There is no way to do successful AB test between them :D I could not. BUT when i got ARES II, holy moly the difference. HUGE!!! Like huge as i dropped to the floor, smiling.. Never going back, never...
Aries 2 sounds slow and muddy . It was a lackluster introduction to R2R DAC in my experience. Made me miss the chip Dacs
@@miquifaye if the ares 2 sounded muddy and slow. You are doing something wrong or it is something else in your system. Perhaps synergy.
Ares 2 is anything but muddy and slow.
And this is not about “preference” as much as it is collective date from many people’s feedbacks and opinions.
Schiit Audio DAC's made in the USA are my choice. Also, some DAC's made in Europe are pretty good.
Agreed. The Modi-the best 100$ you will ever spend in system upgrade.
It is ok , smsl d6s is better and cheaper
No Gustard A26? No SMSL D400EX? No Topping E70 Velvet?
Hey Jay, you are missing the AK4499EX revolution!!!
These Chinese are, again, way ahead of the rest of the world!
What about the SMSL D300 which is the Rohm based DAC?
How much do you want for the Loxjie D50?
Excellent point guys.
i hope you realize filters do generally do the same thing and i think its more determined by the fact that they all use sabre dacs that have filters programmed in them by sabre lol
also my smsl su-9 has sound color too lol
I know, you promise not to review a new chinese dac, but actually from S.M.S.L come out a new dac, the du 10, that seems to be quite similar as the vmv d1 se on steroids! I'm planning on getting de vmv d1se but with this new player in the market, i have my doubts. And that because of the great review you did on vmv, that seems the only dac of smsl to be tune to a different direction. Greetings from Argentina! Thanks for sharing your knoledge!
I bought a Aiyima Tube-A3 but it’s the same Suca Audio Tube T3. I changed the some caps to audiophile grade clarity caps about £65, the two op-amps to Muses02 £85, and the tube to two matched NOS Siemens 5654w £18. The sound has massively improved but considering the unit cost £35 I doubt if Aiyima could have hit their intended price point with the stuff I used…
Wow, may I know where can we get NOS Siemens 5654w matched pair for 18.00 poundsterling??
It would be great if my dac had a sub-out or two. My amp while nice is basically has a Vinyl input for mm, two RCA inputs and a pre out. I can get by but a dedicated sub out could be variable say 45 to 120 Hz or so cutoff.
They are owned by the same company. They are the same just different brands to have more market representation.
Just as I am entertaining the idea of a new DAC this video comes out. JAY, I just pieced together a system based on your suggestion (Lore Ref - SoundArtist Integrated and BlueSound Node. Do you think this setup would benefit from a DAC instead of using the internal in the Node and if so what might be a good fit in this system?
Topping PRE90 vs L70..which one you will chose?
Wish there were more of these "beautiful sounding" DACs and amps that also measure as well as something tenth of the price.
Chinese companies make affordable DACs with extremely high end performance.
Audiophiles: Nooooo, this can not be. Good stuff is supposed to cost 15 times more, done by some old American/European guys with esoteric snake oil talk.
Mmmm. Not quite what the video is saying but ok
This is definitely the case here.
Ever heard of Schiit Modi Multibit DAC?
If they sound great and offer excellent value for the money, what's the issue? Even if they are quite similar or source identical-or at least comparable-components, what's the problem? This benefits the consumer. Increased competition and variety mean you're more likely to find one on sale, allowing you to choose based on price and availability.
You’ve raised valid points regarding the UI and pre-amp sections, but ultimately, if the sound quality is good and the price is affordable, I still don’t see a problem. You could even view these similar Chinese brands as having a distinct personality or set of characteristics typical of the region, much like how German or Swiss products carry their own unique traits. It's not much different.
You did the right thing. I support you to do so.
Wow, you are definitely a different generation. "Back in the day" you'd wait a decade for any real innovative change. I was out of audio for ONE decade and the entire landscape has changed.