Metal Isn't Metal Anymore
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- Опубликовано: 1 май 2024
- Discussing the current state of mainstream and underground metal with music journalist Eli Enis.
Metal’s Stadium Class Is Less Metal Than Ever:
www.stereogum.com/2258777/met...
Eli's site: www.elienis.com/
His Twitter: eli_enis?ref=elie...
His hardcore podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
His broader music podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
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All editing by Austen unless there's another credit above. 
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Just because the bronze age is over doesn't mean all the metal is gone, Anthony
before I realized it was a joke this read way more profound than I expected
Isn't the Bronze Age the guy on the Lakers?
LeBronze Age?🤣
@@MaxMax-zo9vqYeah, I thought this was going to be some wise Kung-Fu master type shit until it clicked lol
what was the bronze age for metal? the early 2000s?
People debating over what counts as metal and what doesn’t count as metal? That’s a defining characteristic of metal, so really metal is still metal.
This is the dumbest take I’ve ever seen
@@RedLobsterChadXBBQ clearly a joke
Jazz has this exact same discourse. The moment a genre gets involved, everyone is like, “but is it really ‘the genre’?”.
@@brycestpeterit is worth exploring though. Metal might be to children of Rock, but it is certainly a different genre.
Most popular metal bands/genres are so far away from heavy/speed/thrash/power metal that they sound like a different genre.
What happens at the moment is metal being mixed with rap, pop, opera, club music etc.
Is that bad? No.
but is that metal?
Up for debate
For real. I remember the argument over Babymetal a decade ago. Beyond what they mentioned in the video, we even have bands like Polyphia doing whatever the fuck it is theyre doing. Genres just dont real in the streaming age, metal included
Oh you like metal?
Name 3 Blacksmiths
The only one I know is Will Smith
Jaden, willow and Will Smith are the only black smiths that come to mind
You joke but got me thinking. Do I know 3 blacksmiths? Not by name but I do like the blacksmith in the belgariad, the blacksmith from a nights tale and the blacksmith bunny from SLF. I like to shout out the blacksmith in robinhood men in tights
Andre of Astora is the greatest blacksmith of all time.
Griswold, Andre of Astora and Adrianne Avenicci. Checkmate, gatekeeper.
The idea that Spiritbox sounds anything like Evanescence is kinda wild and I feel like that comparison is only relevant bc they both have vocalists that are women. I don't even like Spiritbox like that but they have screaming and breakdowns and are metalcore/djent influenced. Evanescence has their own like nu metal/almost a bit theatrical operatic type sound. The comparison is kind of a stretch for me.
that comparison is so goofy it just turned me off from watching the whole video thanks for saving me an hour of my life lol
Couldn't agree more. I knew someone was gonna take a shot at Spiritbox going in but I thought the criticism would be less superficial. Just kinda sucks to hear
@@statelessfgc1069Spiritbox sounds way more commercial/sterilized than other metalcore bands like Dying Wish or SeeYouSpaceCowboy. it seems like they've forgotten that the "core" part comes from hardcore.
for better or for worse, they make radio pop rock with breakdowns.
The danger, intensity, and creativity that bands like Poison The Well pioneered in metalcore has been washed over with squeaky-clean production and sampled drums
Female fronted melodic nu metal
Yeah that's a goofy statement 2 different styles 2 different bands 2 different frontwomen.
Interview me next. I'm not a musician or journalist of anything, I just wanna say hi.
real
Get this dude an interview
I support this.
this guy's up next, heard he's chill
Fantano has 24 hours to respond.
The best metal right now is where it's always been: the underground. The most popular metal bands are rarely the best the genre has to offer.
This times 100
Yeah, the underground is very much alive. Can't even listen to all the records I wanna listen to.
Yeah but what’s underground? That term isn’t really relevant anymore. Bands these days can reach directly to its target audience without a middle man. And algorithms can keep feeding them much of the same. Radio and cable tv aren’t the main source by which people discover music anymore. That use to be how you judged whether or not something was popular or underground. You could say that everything is underground now or you could say none of it is.
This is very real. It’s starting to gain A LOT of traction with bands like sunami and gulch, but Bay Area has had a tight hardcore/metal community for a while now
@@Dirge4july Whether it's relevant is up to anyone to decide, of course, but you don't have to make it unnecessarily complicated. If I see a band at a show with
I'll save you an hour. The dude basically doesn't like new popular metal songs.
Of course he doesn't. Because if it wasn't recorded with a fisher-price recording toy, then it's not trve metal. I personally don't like much mainstream metal, but honestly, that's always been the case. Let's be real, Korn, slipknot, and disturbed from the late 90s weren't these great paragons of the genre. Even if we're talking about metallicas' most popular songs, they weren't THAT incredible. Love the black album, but their first four are easily better. Again, Anthony is just mad that it's "too clean" and that's just a lame argument.
@@bilbobaggins9451 slipknot is great though, to compare it to disturbed is an insult
@@davidescristofaros2241 Idk, man. Slipknot has a sh!tload of misses. The self-titled and Iowa are pretty good, but that's about it. Disturbed never made a good full album beyond asylum. It's not perfect, but not horrible or anything. The sickness and believe are great for the first half. They're either stupid, but fun songs, or genuinely good. The other half of those albums are awful.
@@bilbobaggins9451 disturbed is buttrock, outdated even. Slipknot ranks as one of the top 5 best metal bands of all time, on par with black sabbath, Pantera etc...
S-t and Iowa are great, but Vol.3 has their biggest hits also (duality, before I forget, etc...). All hope is gone, although underappraciated by fans, is great too, Psychological is I think in the top 10 best metal songs of all time, at least. The amount of influence slipknot had and still has on modern metal is huge.
@@davidescristofaros2241 I won't deny their influence. But comparing them to black sabbath? Ummm, no. Lol if you're talking about popularity, sure. But popularity doesn't equal quality, like you seem to think it does. Again, I do like some slipknot for sure, but I do think they're a tad overrated. They only really had two great albums. Disturbed is buttrock, for sure. Lol but it's buttrock that I have a tiny soft spot for, since they were one of the first metal bands I listened to. Don't care for them much anymore though.
It may be true that most of the popular metal bands are lacking, but I listen to literally hundreds of albums a year and go to shows that are 100% metal as all hell. There are so many bands that aren't just heavy, they are pushing the envelope, they are expanding the boundaries. The music industry as a whole has a way of burying all the best stuff.
Sure. I mean, Fantano knows this, he reviewed Civerous, loves Tomb Mold. I think this is more modern popular metal. So much heavily edited, electronic, super polished popular stuff now n
Some examples of the hundreds of albums? I'm out of the metal scene
@@uniquechannelnames what subgenres do you like
As always, the best stuff is usually underground
@@uniquechannelnames i'm going to give the names of the bands that released them, just from this year, to save time: Nokturnal, Exhumation, Unearthly Rites, CRAWL (Altar of Disgust - this band-name isn't super unique so i'm providing the album), Ukhu Pacha, Evil (Buried Alive), Necrotic Ooze, Pentagram Chile, Unaussprechlichen Kulten, Dolmen Gate, Savage Oath, Regere Sinister, Candelabrum, Dipygus, Drowned, Molten, Dissimulator, Hasturian Vigil, Hulder, Contaminated, Vemod, Spectral Voice...
I disagree melon, most construction workers will tell you metal is the same material its always been.
Probably not true. I suspect production methods and alloy compositions have changed over time with their own changes in tolerances in a myriad of different ways. Hopefully for the better.
😂
You
You...
But will the engineers agree?
80's - Hair metal? That's not real metal! That's pop music with guitars! Metal is being destroyed by pop influence!
90's - Nu metal? That's not real metal! That's pop music with guitars! Metal is being destroyed by pop influence!
2000s - Metalcore? That's not real metal! That's pop music with guitars! Metal is being destroyed by pop influence!
2010s - Djent? That's not real metal! That's pop music with guitars! Metal is being destroyed by pop influence!
2020s - Bring Me the Horizon/Spiritbox/Bad Omens/Sleep Token? That's not real metal! That's pop music with guitars! Metal is being destroyed by pop influence!
Yeah and they were right every time all those bands suck lol
@@juicejumper No, they were wrong. None of that destroyed metal.
Correct and based, every decade
I don't think the arguments against nu-metal, metalcore or djent were about pop, those are mostly just bland haters. Nu-metal was partly a pop manufactured genre to begin with, a mashup of 90s groove metal and hip-hop, also influenced by hardcore and extreme metal of the late 80s, metalcore only had some pop bands, whose sounds weren't quite like the more underground bands, djent I guess had "pop" with somebody like Periphery? But not really. Polyphia/BMTH/Spiritbox/Bad Omens/Sleep Token brought it to a more mainstream audience if anything, that's the pop djent.
Purists hated nu-metal for not being technical enough and just general old man dumbassery. It was influenced by hip-hop, they were never gonna understand it. Metalcore was hated mostly IMO because the guitar tones and production of the early works kinda suck and the pits are more likely to be hazardous, the stereotypical windmiller asshole is at every metalcore show. Djent has never been widely hated except by old men, everyone and their mother loves Meshuggah at this point.
This. Boomer arguments. Dude needs to expand his metal horizons
Idk this all kinda feels like the same arguments that were being made when I was listening to metalcore in 2013
Completely agreed.
If you go deep enough, you can find contemporary music that can be as metal or accessible as you want. More popular bands are going to embrace more popular aesthetics, that just is what it is.
same shit yeah. Maybe metal will have another resurface but for now its on life support which is sad
@@AltruisticSelfishneslike any other era of metal, tap into the underground and you’ll find this not true. If anything the underground metal scene is a lot bigger now than it was in like 2017
Also if these arguments have been prevalent for that long, doesn’t that make them kinda true don’t you think? Not that I don’t like metalcore, if anything it’s my 2nd favorite metal subgenre, but I feel the genre progressing to a less heavy sound only proves these points
@fromtimesinkingdoms9144 yea to an extent this is true I just fail to see it as an issue. I mean I'm old enough to remember being told slipknot isn't metal which in hindsight is an even more ridiculous statement than it was back then. I think at this point its pretty crazy to expect metal to not be represented by its most accessible bands
I feel like you could turn on any Crusty Rock Radio station at any point in time during the last 40 years and hear this exact same conversation.
Literally
In the 80s when metal had just became itd own genre?
@@2emo2functionwith hair metal being the big thing and more respected thrash bands being in the underground? Absolutely bands in the 80’s were called posers and sellouts.
Melon saying that Black Sabbath’s first record had to make concessions by using blues rock to appeal to a wider audience is kinda wild considering that that was basically the first metal record. They were making concessions, the genre was in its infancy and they were developing it.
I do think that a lot of what separates new and old metal is this. Old metal was an outgrowth of other styles of music. Black Sabbath was called Earth before they changed their name. Blues sounds can be heard in a lot of early metal because it isn't considered incongruous with the style. But over time, metal became more and more self referential. Now it is almost purely just an aesthetic.
It's sorta like this - Black Sabbath created heavy metal, but they really weren't a "heavy metal" band until they internalized "heavy metal tropes". I'd argue they didn't become a "heavy metal" band until the Dio era. But lets say Sabbath weren't a metal band until they released an album that didnt still have residual blues elements to the music. There was some point in their catalog where they transformed. Was it Paranoid? Sabbath Bloody Sabbath?
@@heresyisprogress think any definition that doesn't include early sabbath is flawed. Some of those early songs, admittedly aren't metal. But plenty of the stuff with blues and pentatonic is. The title song black sabbath, IMO is the most metal song ever written. But you can also have a groove like they put into sweet leaf. Part of my issue with so much newer metal is the aesthetic feels too narrow (or perhaps my issue is more with how many metal youtube channels talk about metal and how many guitar players talk about it). When metal spans early black sabbath, Judas Priest, Deicide, etc, you get a much broader range of emotions and techniques to draw on. Blues isn't antithetical to metal. You can have bluesy scales, and still be metal. I love neoclassical, I love double harmonic minor scales, but I also really love the deep emotion a good blues bend can get into a metal song.
I feel like embracing the extreme aesthetics that exist in electronic music is good way fir Metal to be heavy in a way it hasn't.
Not that it's completely foreign but it could be explored a lot more. I really like Soulkeeper for their electronic/glitchy influences for example.
Also is Metal becomes too poppy and corporate at some point I could see a new heavy wave of Metal come through the way Punk did when they felt rock lost all it's edge.
@@heresyisprogressNo, Sabbath did not create metal. They were arguably the first band to focus on the metal sound, but they didn't invent it. Geezer was worried that Zeppelin would sue them because Paranoid sounds so much like Communication Breakdown. And Paranoid was definitely a metal song.
This same argument was made about 00s Metalcore and 90s Nu Metal, and still is. Gatekeeping has been a part of metal for a very long time.
Don't forget 80s hair metal! This dumb argument is as old as metal itself. The topic is always going to be divisive and this ragebait interview is solely intended to generate engagement. Shit, I fell for it!
Gatekeeping is what keeps actual metal alive, look at any genre of any media anywhere else that does not gatekeep and how it turns out. Even Warhammer is retconning 40 year old lore in the name of EDI. Do NOT "just let people enjoy things".
There's a slight distinction, historically stuff has been called "not metal" cause it added something new into the mix of a foundationally metal sound. Eli is arguing that this new crop of bands foundationally lack a metal sound, and have instead adopted only the aesthetics and occasional sonic references to metal. Basically, Slipknot got shit for being a metal band that incorporated hip-hop references, whereas Sleep Token is getting shit for being a pop/r&b group that dresses like a metal band.
Whether you agree with the "not metal" thing or not, I think the distinction is valid and interesting to consider.
Gatekeeping gets a bad wrap, but when properly applied it is a very useful tool to keep a community safe. The only problem is that the people who want to use it all the time are the ones who should be gatekept out of whatever hobby they are in or trying to get into.
I don't know, I just feel like this entire conversation is a waste of fucking time. This is just a reflection of what's happening in literally every other fucking genre of music. Country, rock, hip-hop, metal, every genre, the upper echelon is connected into The monolith that is mainstream pop music and I also feel like for every genre, it has progressively gotten more this way over the past 30 years. So I don't even know what the point of this discussion even is. What are we going to have committees to try and resolve the issue of pop influence on mainstream metal ax? Just find the bands that you like that express the spirit of the tradition in a way that you appreciate, and get over it
I agree.. i think many genres have essentially come to their natural end point in terms of extremism.
You're doing the same thing tho. In stead of wasting time commenting on this video, you should just find the bands that you like that express the spirit of the tradition in a way that you appreciate, and get over it.
100%. And it's also not like "real metal" (which is a bullshit term in the first place) isn't being made, there are always bands like Lorna Shore, Slaughter to Prevail, Infant Annihilator, Knocked Loose, Gojira that make the heaviest shit you've heard consistently, the gigs are as "metal" as you can get, and that is not gonna change. And then you've got bands that are doing cool collaborations like Spiritbox and Polyphia (not actually sure what genre you would call them tbh) that are doing collaborations with popular artists both in the vein of metal and in the style of the artist they're collaborating with. That is always going to happen, and it's cool cos it gets more people into the genre. It's like these metal elitists listened to Sleep Token and thought "well ackshually this isn't technically metal according to my definition". Idk if it's the same in other genres, but metal can have a weird subset of gatekeepers who don't want other people to like what they like, and anything they don't like isn't metal. It's a pointless discussion about nothing, just a waste of time giving it any air
@@xxswamplordxx2079 deleted my previous reply because I didn't like the tone I took. Definitely had Internet induced anger vibes and that's not the kind of person I wanna be. My point was, offering an opinion on a conversation that takes place in a public space is not the same thing as continuing it. I was only giving my thoughts on the nature of the conversation, a conversation I've heard so many times, regardless of genre, but especially prevalent in terms of metal, and that's it that's all. Trust me, I have found PLENTY of bands that I enjoy, and who express the tradition in a way that I appreciate, and am continuing to do so. I hope you're doing the same.
@@pogobear123 couldn't agree more. Metal, in so many ways, has reached the logical conclusion of extremes. I'm personally not really a fan of the More pop oriented metal acts, but that doesn't mean I need to waste my time worrying about it, or trashing people who are into that sort of thing.
Why are critics always the biggest dorks lol
Because they’re gatekeepers with nothing better to do
No hate to Anthony I think he has a genuine passion for the culture, but critics critique because they cannot do.
@@celestinoledesma8395 yes I wouldn't label him specifically as a critic
Because that’s there job
@@celestinoledesma8395Does that make people who critique critics wannabe critics?
Eli comparing Spiritbox to Evanescence was so funny. Like yo, it's totally different.
was looking for this comment, they literally sound nothing alike
It's like comparing linkin park to Lorna shore 😅
I completely disagree. I have been looking for a way to describe their sound in my head and it totally sounds like evanescence. Just cuz its more distorted doesn't mean they don't have a similar sound.
Evanescence took their metal influences from alternative metal and gothic metal while Spiritbox takes theirs from melodic metalcore but the comparison still stands that they (just like Linkin park) were heavily pop influenced
@@benjaminherrera1987 exactly.
I feel like this guy Eli has the opinion that "melodic" and "heavy" are opposites, when bands like Iron Maiden and Judas Priest are very melodic but also bands which defined what "heavy" is.
I don't think he understands the true meaning of the word melody.
@@dannyblitz2122 I think he has a very narrow idea of what heavy is, which is why this music is declining because not many bands have had this specific sound in the first place..
And if you're a new band, you might not just want to copy Meshuggah
They defined heavy for their time, but their time is long gone and metal needs to be heavier, not whatever this shit is.
@@reisshep When did we vote on you being the person who decides what "metal needs to be"? I must've missed that one.
@@leerobbo92 I mean, metal is in a sharp decline, and that's just my opinion.
It’s liquid.
tee hee
That's still metal 🤓
MERCURY
T-1000
Molten
Not sure how I feel about Enis' experiential framework. To say that Evanescence were one of the two biggest bands in the genre in the early 2000s is an immediate flag that he's skipping over too much. Linkin Park? Yes. But SOAD, Slipknot, Limp Bizkit were absolutely selling more records than Evanescence were. There's zero question about that. Everyone knows who SOAD are. I would wager 85% of people over the age of 18 all over the world except the most extremely remote places, know that name, and probably know at least Chop Suey!.
My 12 year old niece listens to SOAD…if I asked her who Linkin Park was she would ask me if thats like a playground or something.
If you think how much records they sold all over their career it can be true because Evanescence recorded only 4 albums but Fallen, even if I think was their worst album, has sold more copies than any single Slipknot, SOAD or Bizkit album. SOAD can be more popular because even Mezmerize/Hypnotize had huge hits, Evanescence later albums are underrated and most people talk only about Fallen. Slipknot is bigger in the scene but not in mainstream which I understandable knowing how heavy they can play. But for these 85% people Evanescence name would be not so popular but Bring Me To Life is much bigger than any Slipknot song. All these bands are one of my favourites and have so many underrated stuff but it's the same level of popularity. Except for Linkin Park obviously.
oh no Metal has a new subgenre, it must be dead. Metal is dead. Pack it in fellas, music is over.
I've noticed a similar phenomenon with rock fans. Like whenever a new pop-rock band gets super popular, then it's "rock is dead, and x-band killed it"
I wonder if this phase of metal is going to be reevaluated the way numetal is nowadays. I know for a fact most metalheads were not accepting numetal as apart of the genre, and it feels like it's just happening with the new generation of metal again.
I mean yeah this exactly happens in hip hop too. Gangster rap, bling era hip hop, and mumble rap all killed “real” hip hop. Only for the first two sub genres to now become some of the most highly acclaimed eras of hip hop.
@@andralea2144 and then we did the same in the 2010's with metalcore and anything with a catchy chorus.
It's time to learn.
@@andralea2144”Nu-metal” happens every generation, and eventually, the people who enjoy that genre of music grow older and shit on the next genre that becomes popular.
Rinse, repeat. After all, what’s metal without a bit of gatekeeping? /s
I read the article linked in the description and I don’t know what Eli Enid ultimately wants out of the current new wave of metal. He keeps referring to his “thesis” but never defines what constitutes as “heavy” or as “metal”.
Is a song like Number of the Beast by Iron Maiden “heavy” or “metal” despite it being based off of a major sound? Is Iron Tusk by Mastodon not metal because it lacks guitar solos as stated in the article? This new sleek style of metal is nothing new, Children of Bodom and In Flames were making these massive over the top arena metal anthems and the former were influencing synth sounds.
Are Sleep Token any less human sounding than any tech metal band, both are pretty quantized? Are Ghost any less metal than how Black Sabbath was, they may as well be considered a blues band in the grand scheme of things.
I hate to throw insults, for someone that clearly put effort in their article, but this comes off as some basement dweller saying mean things at “X new band” on some metal forum site.
To me there’s nothing less metal than being so dogmatic about what is heavy and what isn’t metal.
It's just elite tribalism at its core and has been a thing for decades. Every new movement in metal comes the old guard calling the new stuff "not metal". Metal is such an expansive genre and if you can hold such mellow sounding things like KISS and Black Sabbath as metal then you should have zero issue calling Sleep Token or similar bands metal. They're FAR less poppy sounding than a lot of the 70s and 80s metal. Growing up with Emo and Metalcore in the early and mid 2000s, I had to hear all the time how "girly" and "not heavy" the bands I listened to were by people who listened to Poison and Judas Priest. There's a massive cognitive dissonance with a lot of metal fans who forget what the bands they like actually sound like.
@@ScopatoneI’ll note in his review he was curious about who would be the next Pantera, and didn’t mention how Pantera were indeed a glam metal band at all, in fact they were for almost a decade. Eli pigeonholes these newer artists without having any sense of thought that they might grow as artists and start to move away from their influences, as most artists do when they get older. It’s more goalpost moving shenanigans.
PS sorry about the hate you got for liking what you liked back in the day, that must’ve been annoying
id actually argue a lot of new metal acts are MORE traditional in a sense to old metal classics, kind of what you mentioned with ghost; it feels the definition of metal got changed due to heavier and heavier subgenres starting to define a kind of allegiance to what it really means to have a metal band... this put me off in a specific way and your comment really put down what i was feeling really well!
i'm not sure we read the same article because it's pretty distinctly named what enid wants from metal. he wants metal bands to actually be influenced by metal, to make new material in the genre rather than wearing it as a costume. ghost are less metal than sabbath because ghost aren't really trying to emulate sabbath sonically, they land almost closer to abba. in flames might play with melodic elements, but they start in the framework of death metal and go from there. the new bands start from a framework of pop and throw in a breakdown somewhere in there
@@ScopatoneI used to be like that until I started literally producing reggaeton. I came full circle and now I love metalcore/contemporary metal.
I was such a hateful goober.
Seems to me that if metal bands aren't selling out stadiums any more, we need to focus less on making bigger metal bands and focus more on making smaller stadiums
As always, just go to smaller shows. I live near Philly and every metal show is usually sold tf out anymore. Saw Hulder/Worm/Devil Master at a small venue and it was wall-to-wall packed.
What this guy is subtly saying is “metal fans of wont pay fomo prices for shows”. I just went to Judas Priest and 3 tickets were about $210. You can’t even enter the city Taylor Swift is playing in for that price.
I know of people who have discovered Vildhjarta after becoming fans of Spiritbox. The existence of gateway and underground bands remains unchanged.
Bro, vidhjarta ain even metal /S
As a fan of Spiritbox, I'll check those guys out and report back.
Edit: I just listened to Måsstaden and Thousands of Evils, and they're both 👌🏼🔥🔥🔥 I can see the similarities between them and Spiritbox a bit, but kinda got more Jinjer vibes from them with the singing vocals sounding like the singer from Mudvayne. Either way, I really enjoyed them.
@@unai49999Okay, after just listening to them, I really want to know your definition of metal. lol Give me a band name, if you don't mind.
@@colli_wolly /s comes from sarcasm. I'm laughing at gatekeepers. Did you like them?
@@colli_wolly btw metal is a mineral formation :D
As a metal head who went to 5 shows in April alone of very different types of metal bands, this is just weird. The metal scene (and other scenes too) has a whole "middle class" of musicians who make their living touring now, when that wasn't even possible back in the day.
Talking about the "mainstream" feels pretty pointless too. Big labels and the like just feel like the remnants of a dying system.
I went to 12 "metal" shows in april and 10 other genre shows.
I think it's equally fucking weird. I have no idea what he is talking about. I'm trying to read the article and nothing makes sense. SPECIFICALLY comparing it to the 00s is extra weird, since most of those bands are still around AND we finally got new ones as well on top of that. Super weird, super odd, didn't last long in the video.
@@notreally-sf3df I went to 24 "metal" shows yesterday and 20 other genre shows. Also agreed.
@@perheriita2723I went to 69420 “metal” shows, and I also agree!
Knocked Loose is going BIG. They have special editions of their album coming out at Target and are going to be playing stadiums at some point, all while staying true to their metalcore sound WITHOUT clean vocals.
@@NuggetsXInfinite Yeah and this scuffed ass metallica fan ignores them.
Speaking as somebody who is both a fan of the overproduced metalcore and the rawer forms of the new wave of traditional heavy metal and black metal, I feel like both Anthony and Eli missed a crucial missing link that I think really bridged the gap between the metalcore of the 2000s and the pop centric metalcore of nowadays, and that’s electronicore. That weird hybrid genre of metalcore, pop, emo and EDM played by bands like I See Stars, Enter Shikari, Asking Alexandria and others that was sort of a staple of the Warped Tour scene really paved the way for metalcore bands to experiment with pop and electronic elements in their sounds.
Definitely! Drum n Bass always comes to mind when I think of electronic influences on metal. EDM and metal intersect in so many ways right now, much like rap and metal in the early 2000s.
Great comment
As always, the Ur-Modern-Metal band is Attack Attack. a bunch of teenagers from Ohio accidentally changed metal forever
Those bands were fucking god damn awful, genuinely shocked that's where "mainstream" metal went after growing up in that era. Like I LIKED The Devil Wears Parada, Killswitch Engage, A Skylit Drive, etc back in the day, and those Electronicore bands were the absolute fucking worst.
@@ElFlippage And unfortunately Atilla. Ruined metal.
Most boomer video title I’ve ever seen, my god
Intentionally so 😅
Thrown, vidhjarta, knocked loose, lorna shore, slaughter to prevail... Idk man, I feel like metal is back in the menu more than ever.
Knocked Loose I've enjoyed immensly. Lorna Shore I've enjoyed too, and I'm not even a deathcore fan. Spiritbox, Bad Omens stuff like that I couldn't get into. It's too poppish for me.
@@WolverineTheApex those are just the usual gateway bands that every era has, imo
@@unai49999 the current gateway bands are less metal than previous ones like Metallica, Korn, Linkin Park, Kiss...
@@StayFreshMyFriends you mad...?
These are not selling out stadiums though.
I think the idea of these bands as a gateway is more important than most think. I’ve gotten hip hop and pop-loving friends of mine into metal and hardcore (Knocked Loose, Converge) by showing them Bad Omens and Dayseeker. They loved the hip hop production and weeknd style flows but they also loved the intensity that the instrumentals and screaming brought. This is also BECAUSE they look like standard pop groups. The theatrics and violence would normally be a turnoff, but since Dayseeker looks like 5 Seconds of Summer they were more down to check it out. Just some anecdotal evidence to add to the convo.
Yeah people really don't consider that if these currently popular groups (who IMO are basically just glitchy Linkin Park verses interspersed with breakdowns) didn't exist then their fans probably wouldn't be listening to metal at all anyway. And I'm sure a ton of fans of underground metal bands started by listening to that stuff and branched out.
@@ArchibaldClumpy lol no
I’m sorry but in an era where Zeal and Ardor exist as well as Druids, Hippotraktor, and Dvne I kinda refuse to believe Metal isn’t Metal anymore. It just isn’t really achieving mainstream popularity the way bands like Metallica and System of a Down did.
the whole point of his piece is that the full on metal bands are not achieving the success that they used to, not that all metal is pop these days
@@ieatrebarwhich it is for the most part
Yeah gone are the days of a band like System of a Down getting two billboard number one albums in one year. Sorry I got baited by the title that’s my bad.
What on earth is this comment?
HIPPOTRAKTOR MENTIONED 🗣🗣🗣
Eli's argument is so weak. He's conflating so many different factors and looking at the history and popularity of metal with such rose-colored glasses. Dudes like Eli have been saying the same thing as boomers complaining about Journey playing stadiums, when they think everything w/ guitars should stand like Lynyrd Skynyrd
Fact: Metal has never really been mainstream, and the closest metal ever got, all of the guys like Eli didn't want to call metal, so they invented a different term for it. Nu metal.
Fact: You can't play stadiums without pop sensibilities because pop stands for popular and metal by definition has always been niche. Metallica can only play stadiums because they went from "injustice for all" to "the black album", which was considered by all of the gatekeepers like Eli as a move towards pop sensibilities.
You're going to complain about sleep token in the limelight and not talk about the success of hard as hell, Lorna Shore? Knocked Loose playing Coachella? It's the same lame dudes complaining that the music that they liked specifically when they're young isn't still as popular. System of a down didn't Dilute the waters of "metal" so that Lamb of God couldn't find success in stadiums. It's logic. Stadiums hold the most amount of people, so you can't play there without appealing to the most amount of people, regardless of your genre. Metal will be just fine.
Metallica was filling stadiums before the Black album.
@@FistfulofFlags Yep, that is very true turn's out. I stand by the rest of my argument.
@@flashpointnova Yeah that stuff is trash for sure. But for many people it's a gateway into the real ish.
@@FistfulofFlags agreed all the way.
Metal culture is based on mostly religion, cult, war, suicide, abuse, sickness, loneliness, discrimination, addiction, politics, provety, and death. I really wanna know where the fun, happy, sexy, healthy, silly, smart, dance metal bands are in the genre. Do you have any suggestions?? Im looking for the good hearted and untortured metal bands. Are there any out there that are really good? Also please dont suggest any Christian metal bands those are the most unhappy and sadistic metal bands by far.
Metal has always evolved, that's why there's so many subgenres. It went from the proto-metal of The Kinks to the early metal of The Jimi Hendrix Experience, then the beginnings of the genre as it would become defined with the likes of Black Sabbath, then the more prog inspired new wave of British heavy metal acts like Iron Maiden, then there was hair metal and thrash metal, then death/black metal came along, then we saw the rise of nu-metal which brought in elements of rap and alternative rock, and now we're seeing a more pop influenced metal. But metal was always melodic music, with perhaps the exception of some of the more extreme black/death bands. Black Sabbath started out as a blues rock band and they were heavily influenced by The Beatles, the melodies were incredibly important to their sound. Even with Metallica or Slipknot, their songs are still melodic at their core. Metal often draws on classical influences so there's a lot of melodic ideas in their. Rap on the other hand was intended to not be melodic and put the focus on the rhythm.
I grew up in the 80s, in those days, metal WAS pop music. Yes, there thrash and all that but the hair metal bands like Poison and Guns N Roses were being played next to Madonna and George Michael. I don't see why metal can't be like that again. You can have the harsher stuff over to the side but also have the stuff that can cross over. Poppy has been amazing at that and she was coming to metal from the pop side.
I think the problem with a lot of modern rock and metal comes down to the production. The Foo Fighters have their heavier moments but their last 3 albums have been produced by Greg Kurstin and I don't think that he understands rock music, he's a pop guy, a ballad guy, but he doesn't seem to get hard rock or metal. On those albums, even when they tried to rock out, it just sounds toothless, it just doesn't hit in the way that it should. They're using autotune and all of the tricks that the pop acts are using.
Before listening to Sleep Token, I was listening to Korn, Slipknot, and Linkin Park when I was younger. But I also listen Slaughter To Pevail, Abbie Falls, and Paleface at the same time as I listen to Sleep Token. I actually discovered Sleep Token through Loathe (currently my favorite band)
I listen to all genres of music. But personally, I enjoy experimental stuff and the metal scene has been the most interesting. I feel Knocked Loose and Sleep Token are two sides or the same coin. KL pushing metals heavy boundaries and ST pushing metals melodic boundaries. It’s fascinating to see these changes in the genre. I can understand why some classic metal heads would start to panic over the genre loosing its identity but it’s an overreaction. People panicked when Nu metal was on the rise but here we are with metal still going hard and strong.
you're taste is all trash
linkin park still sounded like a band though. sleep token literally sounds like sam smith singing with Imagine Dragons and throw in some random 2010 deftones guitars
And what song exactly made by Imagine Dragons sounds like any of Sleep Token songs? I often see the comparison but I hardly find it relatable.
@@trijinae2992 I think fantano said it once and now some people say they sound the same, personaly i dont see it
"Before listening to Sleep Token, I was listening to Korn, Slipknot, and Linkin Park"
my condolences
Why are people so adamant that genres are more necessary than they are? The point of these bands getting big isn’t to be a gateway band, it’s to make music that people might enjoy. Genres are restrictive and pointless.
While i agree to some extent, the point to genres is to be able to more easily find music that is sonically similar. If we have some avant garde artist saying "i make metal" and it's actually atmospheric dnb with random metal sounds in it that's a problem. Genre's are important.
This is very US centric, some of the biggest current bands in Europe, like Sabaton, Gojira or Amon Amarth have very little to do with modern pop music.
bro, you talk about metal from a limited perspective. there's so much change in metal in this decade.
And none of it's good.
@@MATCHLESS93 🥱
@@MATCHLESS93🎯 💯 🎯 💯
The vast majority of metal heads from my generation (millennial) will tell you that they got into metal as a genre, scene and sub culture through listening to Linkin Park. They were a genre crossing and pop centric band and they acted as a very good gateway into metal for a lot of people. They also received all of the same criticisms and gate keeping bs that the bigger bands of today are receiving lol.
Before Chester died any post about LP on Metal Hammer, Metal Sucks or any of the large metal media outlet would be filled with people saying "They're not metal shshdbsjabsb". Now he is dead, everyone has nothing but kind words.
I really hope it doesn't take the same thing for bands like BMTH, Architects, Spiritbox, Ghost, Sleep Tokken etc to get the respect they actually deserve, damn, metal is dying because of gatekeepers like this dude.
Yeah, this video is dumb, also heavy bands as a pipeline for those beginners exist: knocked loose, lorna shore, Slaughter to prevail and brand of sacrifice are an example.
they are still not metal
metal has been kept alive for years when other shit died because of the dedicated fans and gatekeepers
@EnoshII that is one of the worst takes I have heard in a while my g.
Look at the state of things now. We have a festival scene headlined almost exclusively by bands who haven't been at their peak for 20 plus years because none of the new interesting bands who would bring new fans and target audiences are given a chance.
Metal is dying because of idiots who think nothing Is Metal unless it's made I'm some tiny village in Scandinavia, recorded through an answering machine. Metal is so fucking versatile, stop trying to pigeon hole it so you can fucking larp as some deep dark outsider.
@@EnoshII I don't know what this means. Limp Bizkit is selling out stadiums as we speak, a band from an era everyone likes to retcon, pretending like they didn't bop to some nu metal bands growing up. What a weird way to admit you're a gatekeeper but don't know what you're gatekeeping. Why are bands like Slayer and Black Sabbath being spoken in the same tone like they don't sound completely different from one another but because they're both before 2000s they can all fall under the same weird ass umbrella called "metal" but someone like KoRn, which is a generational band that was extremely influential can't lol?
I'm not all the way through this but the fact you're talking about how there aren't any huge really heavy bands anymore and not mention Knocked Loose as a potential band that will take that crown. They've been blowing up bigger and bigger for years and not gotten softer at all.
Probably because Knocked Loose is more hardcore than metal and they're specifically talking about metal
@@iIIiteratex knocked loose is a hardcore band in the sense that there music is centered around breakdowns and is written with the pit in mind, but sonically they are pulling from deathcore and metalcore as much if not more than they are hardcore. So I don't think it's wrong to call them a metal band by today's standards.
Also, if you want to be in depth about it, hardcore as we mostly know it today is a subgenre of metal. Og hardcore punk is an offshoot of punk but when crossover happened it was Crossing Over metal and hardcore. Making it directly tied to metal.
It's insane, the writer has no idea about anything remotely hardcore adjacent. How do you post a piece of this around Sick New World? Such a fucking braindead act.
@@shortcuts2hell I don't deny them having metal qualities in their sound, but I feel like on a cultural level, they are seen as a hardcore band. If you watch their live shows, you can see that they are more a part of hxc community than metal/metalcore. Although I agree that the lines get blurry. But to most people, I feel like they are categorized with Turnstile and Kublai Khan as modern hardcore
@jade.sx9 He didn't bring them up in the article, even says he didn't. Nothing he's saying makes any sense in any way. He needs to sit down and establish what he thinks metal is.
people can like more than one genre. i listen to bands like autopsy, death, obituary, deicide, nunslaughter, ect. as well as bands like ghost, sleep token, spiritbox, loathe, bands like that. i am fully aware of the genres these bands fall in, but i enjoy it all. you don’t need to put up walls by genre and only listen to one thing. just listen to what you think sounds good and don’t let anyone stop you from enjoying it
I got called a poser for liking jazz, punk, 90’s rap, and 40’s to 70’s country even though I’m
a huge metalhead so I couldn’t agree more with that
30:10 I mean, this is begging the question. Is it the job of any band to get anyone deeper into the genre? Is it wrong if a fan doesn't then listen to other things? Maybe the fan just likes that band's sound in particular. This is all framed as if this kind of metal is a threat to the culture/ecosystem, as opposed to a shift in the dynamics. That Bad Omens and Sleep Token (and hopefully Spiritbox soon, as they're my favorite right now) are opening stadiums must mean that this is popular. If the heavier stuff was....it would be selling stadiums instead wouldn't it?
All in all, this feels like the same old head my favorite stuff isnt popular so the genre is dead junk that metalheads are famous for.
This feels like old man yells at cloud, music evolves but we still have tons of classic metal bands coming up every day. The discography of the older bands still exist.
We all should be truly grateful if this is our biggest concern in life 😂 It doesn't mean we cannot discuss things like this, though!
Anthony, I don´t get it! On the one hand, people are complaining that Metal is stuck in the past and that there´s no evolution in it. And then we have bands like Sleep Token or Bad Omens which aren´t stuck in the past, and people complain that Metal doesn´t sound like Metal any more.
Well those aren't necessarily the same people. And even if you do want expermientation, it doesn't make you obligated to think any boundary pushing band is good.
I like that Eli is passionate about metal but this really just came off as really gatekeepy. Pop infused metal has always been a thing and although it may be true that theyre occupying a larger fraction of the metal mainstream, it doesnt make them less metal or detracts from the roots of the genre.
Pop Metal, or modern Easycore in this case.
Melon Isn't Melon Anymore
Watermelon killed melon
i was eating dorito when phone ring:
"metal is ded"
"no"
I think I'm just gonna go with what Prince said on these topics. It isn't up to those that don't make the music to judge what is and what isn't in music. If they feel something is missing then they should find it in their self to make what they feel is missing. If something is missing to them then it isn't on those that are making the music to fix that. Just let people make their music and enjoy it. It's their music and their art. Metal bands today are metal regardless if they have pop influences or not you'd be surprised at how many metal bands from back then were inspired by blues or R&B motown or funk and utilized that stuff we weren't questioning them then so why start now?
When someone says “(insert genre) is dead or dying”, they mean the mainstream. OF COURSE there is good underground music. There is always good music in every genre being made. Obviously. That is not a helpful take
I don't think true, pure "metal" has ever been that massive outside of the "big 3" (or 4) of thrash back in the 80's/90's. Since then, the genre has fractured into dozens of genres, spawning the nu-metal movement of the late 90's and '00s, and bringing us to the modern day.
Now, there are an insane amount of bands spanning so many genres, from traditional thrash and death metal, to mixing genres like black metal, shoegaze, and post rock into something completely new. The latest era of Sleep Token, Spiritbox, Bad Omens, and etc. are just an extension of that. These bands are mostly popular because of they draw from the genres of pop, R&B, and whatnot that are more mainstream.
Look at bands like Loathe, who mix the sounds of metalcore with alt-rock, ambient, shoegaze, black metal, djent, and many other genres. There is an artistic quality to it even if it isn't always adhering to the normal rules of "metal". Isn't the label of "metal" a little reductive in that sense?
All in all, I think metal in today's landscape is just an extension of most other music nowadays. All of it is influenced by other genres and, by extension, is less defined than it used to be. There won't be any more giant bands like Iron Maiden or Metallica in today's landscape because they already existed. They already explored that territory. Just like there won't be any hip-hop acts like NWA or Tupac because they already existed. Hip-hop and pop music has changed over the years just like metal has.
Music and genre changes over time, and metal exists as an example of that.
green day and pop punk happened even though 70s punk existed. Shitty argument.
What is shoegaze?
This is Chat Pile erasure
Chat Pile mentioned :O
That said, sadly they don't have that mass appeal, I'm very thankful my friends are as into them as I am.
Isn't the point about mass appeal? Chat Pile isn't exactly that. Great band, but not mainstream per se.
very based comment
@@ASharkNamedSkye Why? Why?
Wore my Chat Pile merch today actually 🤘🏼
There's Mainstream Metal and there's Underground Metal. There's Melodic Metal and there's Extreme Metal. Metal is still Metal, what are y'all talking about?!
wait till you hear about melodic extreme metal
German Black Metal Musician here. Reading that Title im immediately skeptical and my European Brain goes "Americans Man....let's find out if this is an exaggerated clickbait title and they don't even mean Metal and all it's Sub Genres or just something specific" Dont blame me for that, RUclips Titles made me cynical as hell, but i can definitely tell you Metal especially new creative and rich new Types of it keep appearing in any of our 44 European Countries on a yearly Basis, it never gets boring, i guess many of them don't go on the American Radar for some Reason, but they should.
Especially the past 3 Years there has been an insane creative Boom and Evolutions in all kinds of Metal Genres by especially Central and Eastern European Metal Bands, but of course they like always get barely covered for some Reason.
Point being: Metal IS more Metal than it used to be (and im almost 40) unless you focus on all the Mainstream English Language Stuff everyone focuses on
Prost & Cheers from Berchtesgaden in the Bavarian Alps and when i tour in the USA this Autumn/Fall with some other Central/Eastern Euro Black Metal Bands, i'm sure the Crowd will be a Blast as always, since the American Crowds are some of the most fun ones in my Experience, even if they don't understand the Languages we perform in
What are some of the most popular bands you think we Americans might be missing out on? I love recommendations.
Oh totally, and if you read Eli’s essay, the first thing he says is “Metal is not dead it is thriving underground” what he’s talking about specifically are the most popular, stadium-playing bands that are labeled “Metal” like Sleep Token and Bring Me The Horizon
German labels like dunkelheit and iron bonehead have signed bands from Calcutta, India - where I'm from - so the scene is very much thriving and the interconnectedness across continents is conducive to that.
german black metal... my friend online has an amazing project : "Tom is the Bastard"
blackmetalcore, even has a tech death metal song on "Moloch", he also does Ambient dark ambient / drone music under his same band name, didn't even change the logo sometimes to indicate a style on the cover XD
I also recoiled when I read the title of this video but understand that Eli is mainly talking about the modern mainstream acts that are usually English speaking. Metal as a whole is still a fascinating world, in particular, lately I’m enthralled by the Indian subcontinent’s take on War Metal/Bestial Black Metal.
Lamb of God, Mastodon, Knocked Loose, System of a Down and MANY more all playing very large venues and holding up the standards of a lot of contemporary metal from back in the day. Sanguisugabogg, 200 Stab Wounds, Jesus Piece and MANY more playing small venues and upholding classic death metal sounds and structures. Saying “metal isnt metal” is tonedeaf and just sounds like either you dont look for shit beyond the surface or someone doesnt like 2 big metal bands so they had to write an article damning the genre. Same behavior as people who listen to mainstream modern rap and say “hIp hOp iSnT RaP anYmOrE”
Claiming to be metal, or that there is a certain metal aesthetic/sound to adhere to has become the cringe meta...Look at what Glen Benton just said regarding "weezer" looking dudes infiltrating death metal...As a lifelong metalhead, I am tired of the argument of what is and is not metal...I don't care anymore. It doesn't matter!
I still don't know how anyone can take Glen Benton seriously or any old metalhead that complain about metal not being metal anymore.
it’s not really metal, it’s actually sound waves 🙂
REAL SHIT
Ever since Anthony said that Bring Me the Horizon had "an addiction to metalcore style riffing" on Sempiternal I've taken his metal opinions with a grain of salt. Yes, metalcore style riffs by a metalcore band (at the time) on a metalcore album, shocking.
I think Ghost specifically are kind of a variety band that makes music of many genres. You will get doom metal, prog metal, disco, gospel, classic rock, glam or whatever. As someone who likes heavy music and disco music and casual blasphemy and over the top pageantry, this is a band that really speaks to me.
I think the next logical step of extremity in heavy music is noise rock. Bands like Daughters, Chat Pile, Full of Hell etc capture that perfectly
Also don't forget Lightning Bolt and their drummer's solo project Black Pus.
Agreeed
Gnaw Their Tongues
Code Orange would be an example of a band that did it the wrong way and sold out bc their new stuff sucks
Noise Rock seems to mostly consist of bands compensating for their lack of good riffs, songwriting etc. by trying to create an atmosphere with the noisiness.
Beneath the surface the music tends to be pretty goddamn meh - or just sucks ass.
Metal's changing and evolving that's fine. Lots of what's being said about spiritbox was being said about Babymetal before them and core bands before them and other bands before them. There is no need to gatekeep the genre. If anything the melodic soft push is bound to lead to an eventual pushback.
Yo shout out to Metalocalypse and the first Iron Man movie for getting me into metal when I was a kid
Yes, when streaming exists and music is easy to find, pop metal will be the most popular. Pop, being the most popular, is the most popular influence in any genre (pop rock, pop rap, etc.). If you look at only the top 10 metal bands you will find the poppy ones, but look just a bit below (Loathe, Knocked Loose, Lorna Shore) and you don't have that. That said, as a metal fan I dislike just how many bands feel they need to go pop to make it.
Eli *Enis* is such an unlucky surname
@41:27 This is the point. Horror, the occult, gore, true crime, fantasy and satanic imagery have now been widely accepted in the mainstream and amongst non-metal audiences. Generationally as well embracing these interests used to be a middle finger to your parents, teachers etc., In the 90s if you were into horror you were likely into metal, if you were into fantasy you were likely into metal, if you were fascinated by true crime, atrocities and such you were likely going to be into metal. Now? Not at all.
Its also worth noting that the parents of of today were the Gen x/Early-Millennial of the 80's-00's the music isn't nearly as shocking to that generation as it was to the boomers of their youth, Metal simply isn't viewed as an edgy genre anymore abrasive maybe but not shocking.
The shock value has all but evaporated, I kinda miss the suburban mum scared of music day's
I dunno about the shock factor being gone, I mean have you heard of infant annihilator?
It is insanely stupid to suggest that the subterranean components of metal survive off of Mastodon or Evanescence. It's the other way around: without Neurosis, there would have been no Mastodon. Metal needs Darkthrone more than it needs Avenged Sevenfold. The thrash resurgence beginning in the late 2000s that ultimately gave us Power Trip and Vektor revealed what's actually happening, that the continued survival of metal is growing more from bandcamp and soundcloud than it is the most visible tier of pop culture.
I see where you're coming from in terms of what we need for the production of good art, that totally makes sense, but I don't think that's the metric they're discussing. They're talking about how these stadium-level bands are what get most people introduced to metal in the first place, leading them to seek out more underground bands as their interest in the genre grows.
is it just me or is stereogum's site, at least on mobile, totally unusable? I clicked the link in the description to read the article, and no matter what browser I tried it repeatedly froze and / or didnt display properly to a degree ive pretty much never encountered before.
As an elder metalhead, I can tell you exactly what's wrong with metal. It's a combination of there being waaaay too many sub genres, and the undecipherable growling vocal style of most metal today. It's boring to listen to bands that all sound like their "singer" is suffering from severe constipation. You might like that type of "singing". And you might think it's cool. MOST people don't. That alone will always limit metal's appeal and audience. Melodic metal with melodic (actual) singers have always been the most popular form of metal. Always will be. Like it, or not. Heavy Metal needs to reel itself back in. Stop trying to out extreme the last extreme.
The only acts that can afford stadium touring have to be the grandaddies of the genre, who have already made their $$$ and connections in order to afford them the venues and butts in the seats. Coupled with the fact few venues exist for small/medium acts to cut their teeth on and build a fan movement, less people are exposed to bands than previous generations. $5 all ages gigs simply don't exists, and can't pay the bills even if they did. It has so little to do with genre dilution.
I think one of the main reasons for the aesthetic and spiritual change in the 'metal' scene in the last 20-ish years is due to the fact that ever since the nu metal scene introduced the direct mixing and blending of genres with rock/metal to the mainstream by means of its pure ubiquity on mainstream radio and TV, people gradually became more open to the idea.
I know that there were sporadic instances of rock and metal bands mixing in elements from other genres before the nu metal boom, but no one with ears can deny that the wave of bands coming out in the late 90s and early 00s was what made this type of genre blending popular.
Therefore, we're living in a time where many of the kids who grew up in that environment have formed, or are now forming their own bands. And they didn't grow up listening to pure rock or metal like, for example their parents might have.
Additionally, and more importantly, I think bands nowadays don't only consist of metalheads as was apparently the case 30 years ago.
There's not much doubt what anyone in Pantera listened to during their metal prime, but bands nowadays consist of people with very different musical backgrounds. Some may have been heavily into rap, some may have grown up with Justin Bieber and Selena Gomes, some may have listened to nu metal and some may be absolutely traditional metalheads. So when you put a band together, consisting of people with such diverse tastes, there')s no way that can result in a traditionally sounding metal band.
Some of the original rock bands of the 60s and 70s also included people with diverse musical backgrounds and tastes but they didn't have the entire history of rock and metal to refer to and be compared against. So they invented it and basically introduced the standards we use today.
I think a similar thing might happen in the future, where young bands would rebel against the ideas imposed on them of what rock and metal music should be. They'd just keep the attitude and energy but the sound and aesthetic may be vastly different to what one might expect and that's ok.
Sooner or later the wheel will turn and we'll be back to people rediscovering traditional sounds and so on...The cycle will keep going.
As for the popularity of rock and metal in general, well I mean nothing lasts forever and I think they'll always have their fans but things would probably go the same way they did for Jazz.
Jazz is still around and feels like it has always been around. And while there are still people playing and releasing jazz, there are still festivals and clubs, and you can feel its influence all over modern music, it's far from being mainstream.
I think rock and metal would follow a similar fate...
Title = I'm mad. Content = oh ok this makes sense. Also, it really confused me how Sleep Token got thrown into the forefront of Metal when they're aren't metal at all. At least their latest. It's just a pop band with "metal" aesthetics.
Nah, they’re a progressive metal band
@@Milo-it1tf t. someone who listens to/understands/appreciates neither progressive nor metal music
To me what bothers me about this trend of extremely pop like metal acts is that lots of metal critics seem to give them a pass just saying oh they’re a good gateway band and really not talking about the music at all
I'm gonna need someone to explain to me how Spiritbox being in the Evanescence neighborhood makes it not really metal, but Ozzy era Black Sabbath being a blues band with satanic lyrics makes them firmly and clearly metal (fwiw I think both are clearly metal).
Black Sabbath - by our standards - is simply not as heavy as most modern "true" metal bands. Yet if someone complained they were "too blues influenced" to headline Ozzfest, they'd be torn to shreds for that awful take.
The phrase "stray metal elements" also kinda drove me up a wall. Every metal band ever is just stray metal elements since there is no defining melodic, song structure, or arguably even harmonic characteristic that defines metal (outside of minor tonality which is about as vague as you can get musically). Does the band have a hardcore punk/goth/horror/biker aesthetic? Do they use distorted guitars and dissonance (bonus points for harsh vocals)? Do they write about uncomfortable, controversial, satanic, or taboo subject matter? They're a metal band.
We are basically in a new glam metal area for the tik tok age
the future is garbage
@@MorlockTrxshthe future is the same as it always was.
At least what you call glam metal had shredding guitars and actual fucking riffs.
@@joeylummox7330 i mean current pop metal has breakdowns instead. it is just a different version of the same formula glam metal had: 70% pop rock, 30% metal.
@@Javierm0n0 yeah, garbage lol.
I haven't listened to Slipknot in years. Once Paul Grey Passed away, the way Chris Fehn said he was treated by them, and Joey Jordison's death. If I remember correct Joey wasn't even in the band when he passed away, but those are the few reasons why I stopped listening to them. My favorite album personally was, Subliminal verses Vol 3. I'm still a huge fan of System of a down, these two bands are so talented it just doesn't make sense. I am a black man, and I mention it, because people of my race are often loojed at as weird for liking rock/metal/alternative etc. tbh i just have an appreciation for the hard work these artists put into their sounds, they bring people who have the same kind of appreciation from all types of ethnic backgrounds together. Tech N9Ne has a special appreciation for the same two bands mentioned as well.
Fellow black man here! I’m 23, love System of a Down but my favorite band right now is probably Paleface Swiss! They’re AMAZING. Seeing them later this month I’m so excited.
I’m a white metal head, but the other half of my music is rap. I think there’s a large crossover between the two genres, despite the different cultures. Maybe it’s just the energy and intensity.
@@jeffroberts6428i wish my metalhead friends would understand that drill music and Ken Carson give me the same energy as punk/metal, the violent lyrics in drill are so real that it makes metal lyrics sound like a joke to me, but at the same time i love the riffs, I noticed alot of metalheads tend to get into SuicideBoys and $NOT and Bones, which makes sense if your a metalhead comin into rap
One observation I have had as a guitar player, and keep in mind I am very much not keyed into current metal music so I could be misreading the landscape, is whenever I follow metal guitar channels and many of the metal bands I see, sound much more in the realm of power and progressive metal, with very heavy emphasis on virtuosity of technique. Playing guitar I do appreciate technique but I also appreciate hearing the muscle and sweat in solo or riff, and sometimes what I hear now reminds me a lot of that hair metal apex we hit in the late 80s where technique and style were overpowering substance. You see it I think especially with the almost utter contempt pentatonic scales appear to be held these days (which to me is as stupid as getting enraged over minor chords). I think the missing element is inspiration. I hear a lot of good music, that doesn't feel inspired or coming from an authentic and genuine place. One of the appeals of metal bands back in the day, like Megadeth for example, is whether it was a more sloppy album like So Far, So Good So What, or a more pristine one like Rust in Peace, you felt you were getting a window into their souls. It was genuinely expressed and felt emotion, a reflection of who they were as people. And Megadeth was just an example. I would say the same thing about Iron Maiden, Obituary or King Diamond. Maybe I am just old and cranky but some playing I hear now,. And there are newer bands I like. This is more about the culture I see around metal guitar and guitar playing in general. Also I think in a lot of ways metal has been divorced from metal and just become another aesthetic people layer onto music.
I think it’s an issue with promotion too. There are countless awesome metal bands nowadays with 1,000 monthly Spotify listeners.
Aight, show me 5. I don't believe that.
@notreally-sf3df Open Kasket
@@notreally-sf3dfthat's the main problem. People want to be shown good music by other people, which is fine, but they conflate not seeing any with that genre being dead. If you genuinely want more of a certain type of music freaking go look for it.
@@notreally-sf3dfDark Depictions, Sunscourge, Living Cursed, Altar of Despair, Searching Serenity, Fighting Regress, Blood Menace, Circlewind, Soul Despair, Insular, Time & Eternity, Construct Paradise….
@@Riney8 I said great, not sub-par deathcore.
Also, just want to add, there is nothing at all preventing people from being fans of multiple bands. I'm a fan of Gojira, Sanguisugabogg, Napalm Death, DARKO US, Cradle of Filth, Frozen Soul, Spirit Box, Nekrogoblikon and Sleep Token and listen to all of those bands daily, people have what's called a "range" I know it's a wild concept that people can oscillate between different types of music. But they do.
As a 29 year old Sleep Token fan who's listened to all kinds of metal ever since Hybrid Theory and Meteora were released when I was in elementary school, yes... Imagine Dragons is an insult.
its true tho
I mean despite being extremely boring and generic Imagine Dragons aren't a bad band and even started somewhat strong (I still remember them being a "new big fresh cool thing" in like 2013. For a short period of time I would even say they were a somewhat proper getaway band for gathering some listeners even into metal from the mainstream, just got more systematic and lifeless as the time went. Despite never liking Imagine Dragons and kinda enjoying some of Sleep Token songs I think it's a pretty good comparison, especially knowing that a lot of the underground/gatekeepers probably have the same opinion about Sleep Token that you have about Imagine Dragons. It's ok to enjoy things you like, you know, who cares about some dude whose whole personality is music genre/underground/being different (obviously not a shot to all underground fans, talking specifically only about pretentious snobs and gatekeepers) thinks that you are lame and you yourself probably are better off letting others listening Imagine Dragons in peace without going at them like "but the music you listen just sucks, how can you listen to it" or something like that.
@@jeffreychandler8418 just isnt though. its like saying linkin park is as bad as MGK
Some of the best stoner metal and doom metal seems like it’s being released In the 2000s and still going strong!
I feel like the current metal fandom has been invaded by scene kids.
Unfortunately scene kids poisoned this thing 20 years ago.
and classifically they then say "don't gatekeep" nah I will gatekeep because I think metal is more than generic af pop trap.
screw me for loving the genre and wanting people to understand that to it's fullest extenet
@@jeffreychandler8418 You are telling people they can't like certain forms of metal and then think that they are the people who aren't understanding metal to it's fullest extent? Laughable.
@@sean_mc oh you're free to like it, just know it isn't metal and is mediocre relative to most metal
sleep token will never and can never approach the catharsis that IOTUNN or Panopticon can inspire.
@@sean_mc fuck just this week aquilus released an album that is a damn near motion picture in terms of composition and amazingness.
They are a band solidly relegated to the underground, unfortunately.
Idk this just sounds like we’re taking some of the most popular metal bands(mostly metalcore) and complaining that “metal” isn’t heavy because those bands have pop influences? That’s a staple of the genre of metalcore. There are so many countless heavier sub genres that are also metal. Maybe it’s just me but hearing someone complain about “metal” not being heavy enough is infuriating as someone who primarily listens to metal. I love death core but I also love metal-core, and metalcore bands have always been far more popular than deathcore has been but why does it matter? We have a great diversity of sounds across all of metal with huge diversities even just within our small sub-genres. This conversation genuinely just sounds out of touch to me we should be so happy and praising all the success and attention the most popular bands bring the genre as a whole. I’ve listened to MTS for a decade and they’ve always had a smaller following til they toured with bad omens and now have over a million monthly listeners, while you could argue they’re not as heavy now with their newer releases they are absolutely a heavier band. I see the success and am happy and grateful to see the music I listen to not only grow but evolve as well, not complain that “metal isn’t metal anymore”
TLDR go listen to old souls best album ever made
Just because you can't see the metal, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Furthermore what's "happening" to metal isn't unique. The industry as a whole only pays attention to artists who can afford to be online all day pushing their product, and 99% of the stuff that is the most visible isn't really as good as what ordinary people are doing. Anyone with a job or a life outside music (think Robert Pollard) the industry just doesn't give a shit. The industry doesn't SCOUT talent anymore. It's up to us to email you our shit and just hope you pay attention to it, and just hope that most media stfu about the biggest pop artists for a second to cover something new.
i wish there was a little discussion around what bilmuri is doing. they arent as metal but the influences are definitely there, and the genre bending they do is genuinely creative and it just sounds like they have fun making their music.
couldn’t help thinking about bilmuri through this whole thing too
I had the same thought. Johnny is really the only guy doing something with metal I feel like no one else is doing... Much in the exact same way he did 15+ years ago in Attack Attack lol
People may not agree but i just want to put it out there, i feel like bass-heavy electronic music, more specifically early 2010s Dubstep, played a big role in modern metal song structure even with the more proggier and technical metalcore/djent bands with being over-edited and the mandatory breakdown as the new "drop the bass" moment distanting itself from the metal roots. Whether is it a bad or good thing thats up to debate.
This is an age thing… but moshing didn’t anywhere close to recently become “a general response to anything remotely heavy” as Enis suggests. On a lunch break in 1998, I went to see the Cranberries play an acoustic set at the Washington Monument on a lunch break. When they played “Linger,” a crazy pit broke out and park and riot police had to be called in to break up and disperse the crowd while shutting down the show. Even at that point, “normies” moshing was the most common thing at a show possible.
So, an hour gatekeeping metal to only the subgenres we like.
As music critics, its absolutely fair to explain why you don't like, or don't find value in certain music. But you have to recognise that does not equate to that music not having inherent value. Clearly others are finding value in it. That article reads the same way as a black metal forum would 10-15 years ago.
And equating Spiritbox to Evanescence is... something.
so you didn't listen to anything.
You know what genre I feel can turn the tide with mainstream metal? Power metal, specifically U.S. Power Metal. I'm talking bands like Judicator, Seven Kingdoms, Jag Panzer, etc. Why? Because it follows Eli's mentioned criteria of what it would take for the pendulum to shift while still offering something for newer audiences.
Unlike its more popular sibling Euro-style power metal, most US-style power metal is actually closer to thrash in many ways in terms of speed and heaviness, but still retain the melodicism and theatrics that power metal and a lot of mainstream metal is known for. It still is very riff-centric and memorable, solos are still prevalent here, and most vocals are sung clean so it's something arguably more accessible than a metalcore band where the melodic parts of the song are usually reserved just for the chorus. It's arguably the closest we've ever had to 80s thrash, which dominated the sphere in its glory days. I wouldn't be surprised if somehow this kind of power metal became the go-to of many people trying to get into genre as a whole and either replaced or ran counter to mainstream metalcore in the 2030s.
unfortunately so much power metal wants to be the stupidest shit imaginable rather than actually good and compelling. If only dragonforce put out an album like Valley of the damned, then the tide would shift
@@jeffreychandler8418 Hey, some of the stupid stuff is actually good unironically. 😆 But I can absolutely see your point of view. With that said, that only represents a small corner of the scene. Quite a few power metal bands are making some really impactful stuff like Unleash The Archers. Even Helloween had a really good comeback album!
@@chidorisnake22 some of it is true, but vanishingly little. I agree that those two are really good, my issue is that the dumb power metal seems to get the most traction out of clicks
@28:00 also, Waltari, 1992, "Yeah Yeah Die Die Death MEtal Symphony in C" mixed everything in metal.
Opera, techno, hip hop, punk, rock... everything. So Waltari, in Finland, crushed the boundaries LONG ago. Enter Shikari and other bands like Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Estradasphere, Maudlin of the Well, Agalloch, Disillusion "Gloria" pushed boundaries long ago
I have a heavy opinion that Metal and Rap have a lot more synergy than people give it credit for. Theres ALOT of rap influence in older and current metal, and vice versa. Travis Scott and the like if anything should be using metal MORE IMO.
Mostly just aesthetically. Most rappers have a baseline knowledge of metal (SOAD, LinkinPark, Black Sabbath) and don’t actually incorporate it in their music in an interesting way. A rapper wearing a slayer t shirt isn’t really “synergy” to me, but I guess both genres kind of share the same ethos, kind of.
@@understanding77 I headbang more to rap than any other genere outside of metal/HC. Maybe some edm songs get me there but any form of rap above 140 BPM gets me so railed up.
@@understanding77 sure but what Im saying is I think there would be more synergy if people added more heavy riffs and breakdowns to rap. I love Moshing at Rap Concerts. Like the ASAP Ferg Concert I went to was literally one giant Pit the whole time and it was awesome.
You’re absolutely right look at playboi cartis sound and aesthetic
Try listen to ghostmane
The sound sorta isn't, but the theatrics definitely is.
I think it’s kind of an important distinction to make that pop sensibilities and production =/= lack of heaviness or extremity.
If you put even one of BMTH’s most recent songs like Amen alongside your average Metallica song and played both for your typical normie music listener, one is more like to be far more palatable than the other.
A lot of people through evanescence got into bands like Epica and Cradle of Filth. Just saying.
don't forget about Nightwish and Within Temptation
Evanescence helped make me a metal listener. I wouldn’t be listening to death metal or anything without listening to stuff like Evanescence and Linkin Park.
Hard to say metal isn’t metal anymore with how many sub genres of metal we have especially with how much more popular/successful we’ve seen modern deathcore/metalcore bands have become
They're talking specifically about the current set of "stadium level" metal bands, not metal in general.
Also love this dork bringing up Korn as a metal band when in their day no one was accepting them as a metal band.
Is Nightwish metal?
Is Rabbit Junk metal?
What about Grai? Are they metal?
Rage against the machine?
I could list a lot more bands from many different subgenres, but it is pointless.
Korn is no less metal than Slipknot is. Korn is just metal made by the Joker.
How is Sleep Token similar to Imagine Dragons?
They’re gay.
The big arena modern pop choruses, probably. Like the song Granite. If Imagine Dragons made heavier shit I’d bump it though haha
@@android521 I'd say they are far more similar to Bastille, idk why Fantano deliberately choose Imagine Dragons to compare them (I assume in a derogatory way)
Look Melon,
Ima need you to be more prompt on BEEF WATCH 2024
people should get back into the early classics; Slayer, Iron Maiden, Goat Semen, ect
This is so out of touch honestly… gatekeepers who never really listened to the bands they’re referring to and completely misunderstanding their sound based on snippets they heard… Spiritbox = Evanescence is such an uncritical and reductive statement to utter… Sleep Token = Imagine Dragons is so ludicrous they sound nothing alike. Linkin Park and Evanescence aren’t metal??? Excuse me??? Metal = not melodic is the worst one of all… even Thrash has melody if that’s all you consider to be metal
Yeah this guy does not know anything about music
This guy Eli is a joke.
Sleep Token ≠ imagine dragons
Spiritbox ≠ Evanescence.
The fact that he has the audacity to make such a claim tells me he is either:
A. NOT musician in any meaningful capacity
Or
B. Never actually listened to any of the 4 bands he tried to compare.
This is the most American discussion about metal that I've ever seen.
i’ve always liked wood better anyway
Knocked Loose have 1.7 mill listeners on spotify currently (not too far behind Sleep Token at 3 mill). The heavier side of metal is getting more popular not less.
When talking about popular metal and high sellers, then sure, it would end up being the pop acts. But the sound of metal will continue to evolve, we also have bands choosing to sound like 80s thrash but released today (such as Thrashwall). What an interesting time for metal.