The Vietnam War- Episode 15: U.S. Military Combat Shotguns.
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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I have an aquaitace who used an 1897 trench gun, on patrol, in Vietnam and states that he preferred it to the other types of weapons available to him. These included the M16, M14, and M3 grease gun according to him.
I am a shotgun collector and I trust the security of my home and family to a pump action 12ga. Shotguns are unique in it that they provide a very high first shot stop capability as long as the shooter does his/her part in the accuracy department.
I'm going to guess he preferred the 1897 (as I would) because the trigger/sear disconnect function allowed it to be "slam fired". That particular function had The Huns screaming foul in WWI.
@@colinsdad1 That last part about "The Huns" is a crock of shit and fuddlore.
I did some research about the Model 97 being used in Vietnam. I saw one Model 97 used by a Marine Staff Sergeant who took down two V.C, in slam mode before the M-60 gunner next to him got his first shot off. A Marine ordinance tech told me that the Marines were not issued Model 97 trench guns in Vietnam. He was correct but, there were some M97 guns used by U.S. troops. These had been refurbished and issued to South Vietnamese forces who, very likely, had traded or sold these guns to individual American troops.
A take-off on the shotgun was the buckshot or fleschette loads issued for the M-79 40mm grenade launcher. I did not see these in action but when I worked with the Navy River Patrol Boats (PBR) , the crew members were very excited about these rounds that were scheduled for issue to clear the decks of enemy sampans or junks. Imagine a shotgun with a 40mm bore...
The SEALS preferred the Ithaca M37, because of the absence of the side ejection port.
I heard the Ithaca 37 was generally given to a SEAL team point man in Vietnam
The reasoning behind it was that it was one less hole for shit to get into and gum up the action. They’re great shotguns but the bottom eject had issues on ejection sometimes just due to the mechanical nature of it. Other then that though I’ve never heard of them being anything but reliable
It also has the slam fire ability
Besides the port being on the bottom which prevented rain from running into it, it was lightweight.
I served In Nam as FAC 67-68 USMC and had choice of 870 or Win 97. Took the 97 as I hunted with mine back in the World. Served me well hundreds of times ...still alive today...go with God...Semper-Fi....Thanks for video...oh I liked the slam fire on the 97 best.
my favorite shotgun ever used by the US was the m1897 trench gun, probably one of the best shotguns
I own one in 16 gauge that I inherited from my grandpa, real fun to shoot and overall nice gun, but the ammo is a bit expensive because 16 gauge has become less popular over the years.
Do you own one? Because they are cool but definitely not the best for very hard use.
I carried a 97 Trench gun for 6 months in RVN, then switched to a 37 and carried it for 30 months or so. I still have it. Anyone who actually carried and used a 97 probably still has "THE SCAR" to this day....the 37 was a dream compared to the 97....light fast and easy to reload on the run.....nice video....Thanks
Could your 37 slam fire? Or were you on the back side of the mod date?
My grandpa who was in the Navy during the Veitnam war told me that he used an 870
Nice
Your uncle was not the only guy that carried a shotgun. Very effective close combat weapon woth slugs.
We Use To Use Shotguns For Prison Guard Duty. I Have A Winchester 1200 Nice Shotgun!
I have a Stevens Shotgun it has a 20in barrel that my father passed down to me. He served in Vietnam in the US Navy as a river boat gunners mate. I think it’s an M77. Great video!
Could you make a video about US use of captured equipment?
Personally, I'm not sure that there's enough of that to make a whole video out of it. I imagine that he might touch on it when he cover unconventional forces since those would be the ones most likely to use captured weapons. For a regular line grunt it would be rather unusual for them to use captured weapons from both a regulations stand point and as a matter of practicality since he wouldn't be able to just go to supply for more ammo, mags, or spare parts if needed.
@@Riceball01 There is actually a great deal of NVA/VC equipment that was used, and I will eventually cover it in this seemingly endless series :)
I'm a fan of the Vietnam gear and last year I got a real ERDL jack but someone ripped thee sleeves off.
US military shotguns used up to Vietnam included:
1) 1897 Winchester
2) Remington Model 11 semi auto ( Browning A5 copy)
3) Winchester Model 12
4) Savage model 720 ( Browning Auto 5 copy)
5 )Ithaca Model 37
6) Stevens 77
7) Remington 870
Cool. You should make a video since mine apparently wasn't complete enough.
@@MikeB128 No it was cool. I just wanted to add a fewer less known shotguns that were used some may not know about.
I have never seen pictures of guys in the field in Vietnam using most of the ones you mentioned.
@@MikeB128 Well I have not either. My old man was there 68-69 , my uncle 70-71 both Army and my other uncle a Marine 67-68. Now they told me guys carried a wide range of shotguns as other weapons . Depending on unit and armour a hodge podge was issued. Then nothing was " standard " per say and as long as you turned in a weapon before getting on the " Freedom Bird" no real questions were asked.
My dad had guys in his outfit that carried Tommy guns, AK's and M14's as well as non issue handguns they brought or bought while there.
Now in those days as I was told captured enemy weapons or non standard issue weapons were used on missions , not to alert the enemy of US troop presence, what he called " sterile ops."
For use in reenacting. The Winchester Super X Field trial popper blank is the only blank to use. It has no wading. Only a thin cork over powder and shot buffer. No felt wading at all. And the sound like a cannon.
Still had a M1200 trench gun on our Theater Property Equipment in Afghanistan till we shut down in 2021. It served alongside our Mossberg 500A1s and Benelli M4s. Ammo was 00 buck and Breaching Rounds. I picked up a British P1913 bayonet (which the M1917 bayonet is based off of) for it at the bazaar. Czech Republic had some Benelli M2s.
Great video, I am a big fan of shotguns used by the worlds armed forces. I would however like to share some knowledge about Vietnam shotguns and shotgun info you may find very interesting.
Shotguns have been used since the Philippine War in the late 1890s or early 1900s. This where 12 and 16 gauge where first truely used by the US and eventually most of the world. The little known fact is 16 gauge has been used in the Winchester Model 97, 12, and 1200s. Ithaca Model 37s were also used in 16 gauge, as were Remington Model 10-29, 33, and even Mossberg 500B Models (16 gauge variant). Any popular 12 gauge shotgun from 1900 to about the 1970s in use by military also had a 16 gauge variant serving along side. It wasn't until 1993-95 era of the Gulf War where 16 gauge would be disqualified from use in military, and 12 gauge would be the only gauge to serve world wide since. They even had Mortar rounds specifically for the 16 gauge in the Philippine War. They loaded them I believe in #4 and #1 Buck and also sometimes slugs for military use. I also believe experimental flechet and even incendiary ammunition were designed for 16 gauge in Vietnam.
Ok but back to Vietnam, where it gets really interesting in the gauge department. Shotguns were HEAVILY experimented with in Vietnam, to where they made crazy attachments as you pointed out, but also experimented with gauges and shell sizes. Most notably Winchester attempt at militarizing the 14 gauge, in all aluminum cases, and conventional plastic/paper. 20 gauge would see field use in Vietnam, but it suffered heavily in Vietnams jungles and lacked power in enemy engagements. 12 and 16 would continue, although 12 being far more popular, but some still loved their 16 gauges like myself (I did not serve or anything, just love 16s over 12s). They were sleaker, lighterweight and could do everything the 12 was doing at the time. But 3" Magnum 12 gauge, further improvements on 20 and shell technology, and being disqualified since 1926 from competition, 16 became expensive and not popular, and faded away.
The Canadian Military use Benelli M3s currently. I have no idea if they are significantly used, because now a days shotguns are a riot/prison, or room clearing gun. My uncle who served in the Canadian Military said some guys still carried them in missions requiring peacekeeping or building to building operations. These guys would often have a C7 (Canadian M16) or C8 (Canadian M4A1) with their M3s. I do not think our military uses anything other then that model of shotgun either.
If you read my comment, I appreciate it. Please continue on your videos, love learning new things. Never knew of the duckbill muzzle device the SEALs used, it made me immediately think of Contra's spread gun though.
Semi related question. When did the US formally adopt the 30rd magazine for the M16 family and how much use did they see towards the end of the conflict? Thanks in advance.
About 1969, and in the 70s they become more prevalent. I'll be doing a vid on that eventually.
@@MikeB128 I have a pic of my Dad in 1969 with The 4th ID holding that exact weapon. 30 round banana clip. Almost looks like an AK-47
..M16A1?
Nice review! We mainly used the M79 grenade launcher so we did not have to drag along another gun. Its shotgun round was pretty effective!
Yep. A buddy of mine also was commenting about how the canister shot was amazing for close range. Thanks for watching!
I'm a Corrections Sergeant at a large Police Department. We still have a ton of 870s in our Armory.
@@ColonizerChan got to GT Distributors
I carried a M12 (Win mod 12) in 1970 for a couple months. It had a heat shield and Bayonet lug but I never had a toad sticker that fit it. And I was one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. (USMC) I have a long barreled civilian model to this day. I don;t use it much. I get it out once in awhile, have a drink or two, then put it away. It seems like the right thing to do. Never even saw a 870 but I did see an officer once with a cut off Browning A5, painted green. It may have been a Springfield 720, i didn't exactly get to examine it. I highly doubt that was standard issue.
These videos are very educational Mike. Would you ever consider making a video about the weapons used by South Koreans, South Vietnamese or Australians in the war?
Standard #00 buck is the perfect anti threat load within 100 yards. yes rifles own the distance but multiple hits at once are a stacking factor of lethality. remember during combat with a shotgun a well made perfect shot will have some misses but a miss with a shotgun will have some hits. don't count on all pellets, count on putting lead in the threat. I ask everyone to go back to the 100 yard line and test some buckshot, don't expect rifle groups but always expect hits.
Am I going nuts/am I blind or did you add the "We Try Harder" button in between the last video and this video?
Awwwwww sheeeiiiitttt.
I've heard they were using also Browning Auto 5 , but maybe that's just a myth ..
that was an awesome Vid Mike B that pic of the Ithaca in Vietnam was a model 12 though but you can find pic of it all over the place.
Yeah we still use the good ole Remington. At least cavalry scouts in heavy units do
The 77 was the same model shotgun form the vid of Troops smokeing weed out of
Also the M37 could slam fire so I’m sure that was popular
He’s here to slam fire that shotgun an eat MRE’s an if he’s got an empty stomach your shit outta luck.
I think of pvt bunny from platoon since he uses the shotgun in the movie.
The model 12 is basically a reworked 97, but they’re great
Brit Military also use the Benelli M4 shotgun, designated as the L128A1 combat shotgun fitted with a Eotech holographic sight. Before that the British Army also used the Browning A5 semi automatic shotgun in conflicts such as the Malaya emergency, against communist guerrillas.
Excellent weapon in Vietnam 69-71 '……Winchester 1200 12ga
Hella underrated channel
I read that with the Ithaca you could hold the trigger back as fast as you could cycle the weapon it would fire. So with 8 shots 8x9 for 00 buck 72 bellets down range in like a few seconds. Read the book Point Man by guy named Watson i believe great book..
A shot gun that slamfires!
Ithaca deer slayer
The Stevens 520-30 can also slam fire but with only a 5+1 capacity. On the Stevens when you hold the trigger it will drop the hammer as soon as the bolt closes so it might work differently than say a 1897 but it still shoots just as fast.
Hello my friend! Just binge watched your whole nam series. You’ve cleared a lot of things up for me, love what you do. How common was sharpie graffiti on helmet covers? I don’t wanna deface my original one but I have been curious about this for a while.
I made an entire video on that as well. Search on my channel and it should clear things up. Thanks for watching!
Sharpies weren't around in the Vietnam war era.
I own a remington model 870 mariner Marine love it and I work security
The 77e was shorter but with a flack jacket it was fine.
I swear, you look like Telly Savalas in the movie Dirty Dozen with that helmet. 🤣😂
Yeah not the first person to say that.
00 buckshot will solve a lot of problems.
I don't think that the Winchester Model 97 shotgun was ever issued to American troops serving in Vietnam; although there were many instances of U.S. troops using the Model 97!
I believe that the Model 97 Winchester "trench gun" found its way to Vietnam via the South Vietnamese Military. The U.S. refurbished some of these guns and issued them to the South Vietnamese. Some (quite a few in fact) found their way into U.S. hands by the South Vietnamese trading or selling the weapon to the Americans.
One night on perimeter, I witnessed a Marine Staff Sergeant dispatch two Viet Cong infiltrators before the M-60 machine gunner nearby even got off a single shot. I believe that the Staff used the Model 97 in "slam shot" mode but, cannot be certain of that!
BTW: the U.S. also issued the Model 1917 (WW-1) .30-06 caliber Enfield rifle as part of the Strategic Hamlet Program. This was a bit too much rifle for the generally smaller framed Vietnamese peasant. While I saw many Model 97 shotguns used by U.S. troops in Vietnam, I never saw a Model 97 Enfield used by anyone.
We are not only one of the only military’s to still use shotguns, but one of the only ones to ever use shotguns, also I think dragons breaths shells would have been useful in nam. They are more lethal than people think, and would scare the shit out of the enemy.
Not sure which one but one of those old shotguns in Nam fired double action.In example just hold trigger down and pump.No trigger reset.
Winchester model 1897 would slam fire. That's about it.
@@MikeB128 Didn’t the M1912 and Ithaca 37 also slam fire?
I own a winchester sxp even a #4 turkey lead shot can do bad damage to an attacker close range some say it wont work i say yeah whatever after shooting thick plywood watching it shatter you tell me
Nice Video!
Thanks!
I talked to a vet that used a 10 gauge sawed off when he was walking point in the jungle.
Yeah cool, how'd he get ammo?
@@MikeB128 Sorry...it's just a story I heard from a guy, a vet. Point is he said if he heard anything in front of him, he just let that thing go off like a claymore Maybe it was a 12 gauge....maybe he was lying.
Ive been looking for a heat shield bayonet lug for my 97 trench gun. cannot find one for less than $150.
Congrats.
Ok why a shotgun , As a staff NCO in nam (my 2nd tour) my issue arm was 1911 45., now most of my direct encounters wih Charles were at night, after all he could reduce his casualties by a 3rd , and you cannot see the sites a 45 pistol no matter how good your eyes are! And with a shotgun yu don't need too, I am a retired Msgt usmc.
Hey Mike, I wanted to know if soldiers ever carried shotguns as their primaries.
Yes they did.
@@MikeB128 Alright thanks. This Nam reenactor was screaming at me that theyvonly used then as primaries.
SEALs were the only ones that carried the M37? Or did many other “standard” troops carry them too?
I enjoyed your video but I found it odd that you wear that uniform....but, it's your show so keep making yourself happy.
You cud go to the exchange and buy a Mossberg riot gun in country for 42 bucks.
Mike, are those Jungle Fatigues(the lightweight ripstop ones) ?
If so is there a good supplier for them?
I really liked them.
I have them in my online shop. Only size medium regular at the moment because they're extremely hard to find now. www.mikesmilitaria.com
Hey Mike b can U do a video about the webbing the US army used in Vietnam and a seperate video about the erdl camo would be cool
No
What shotgun did bunny carry?
Remington 870 Wingmaster.
My itica 37a still working pump VN army 63 69🇺🇲🇺🇲🪖 DAV
*Unit 1968 wants to know your location*
Interesting vid. Could you do a vid on Spec ops use of G3 rifles in Vietnam?
The only HK I've heard of US special forces using in Vietnam was the HK 33.
@@frankdamsy9715 The HK33 was an improved G3, just essentially a more long and oversived MP5 chambered in 5.56x43mm NATO versus 7.62x51mm NATO. Oh and they probably did start using MP5s at this point, not sure how many or even how commonly used or if ever used in combat though.
@@Bitis11nasicornis the MP5 hadn't become the choice for SF guys over the Uzi at this point and as far as I can tell wasn't used in Vietnam. As for the HK 33, the US forces that used it were using the A2 variant, which had a fixed stock and a 16 inch barrel, it was very much a substitute for the M16 and not the M/45 or Uzi.
@@frankdamsy9715 I do know the MP5 prototype was out by the 60s, and I do know NATO was testing it, but I think you are right about it being adopted after Vietnam. I do know that the SEALs at least also used Mac-10s, but I am not sure for how long or if really ever in combat.
Two rifles special forces really enjoyed in Vietnam were the Colt Commando and Stoner 63. SEALs preferred the Stoner 63 to the M16 and many Special Forces soldiers would enjoy the Colt Commando. The Colt Commando would prove its worth and be re-made (essentially) into the M4. The Stoner 63 was too costly apparently and only the SEALs wanted them so the Stoner 63 would be sadly abandoned.
@@Bitis11nasicornis the 63 was adopted more as a squad LMG than as a rifle, but yeah Colt 607 especially near the war's end in the 70s was the go to weapon for the Navy SEALs. I do know that the HK 33 was appreciated by SF guys during Vietnam roughly midway through the war due to the 40 round mag (the standard M16 mag at the time was 20) and the fact that it was basically the only real automatic 5.56 available at the time that wasn't screwed up by the US ordinance board.
You forgot the model 10 remington...
You should make your own video then.
Itica sold 40,000 12 ga double barrel of pump was told this by itica great grand daughter
Is it a prerequisite for old boomers to not be able to formulate/spell a sentence correctly to where it's understandable?
Why weren't those combat shotguns 8-shot pump riot guns ?
Weight.
Will you be covering enemy weapons?
he promised :-) it's A LOT of stuff to cover, be patient.
watch the whole video and you'll have the answer :)
We were in fighting in Vietnam to halt the spread of communism , but now capitalism seems to be flourishing in that country at least in the major cities anyway, so i am just wondering what was the war all about couldn't they have negotiated something like this out 55 years ago.
The conflict in Vietnam like all conflicts usually has several layers of reasons.
One of those reasons might be oil in the South China Sea.
The oil in the Spratly Islands and atolls has been known about for a very long time. I remember them being mentioned in books a long time ago about WW2. They knew the oil was there but did not really have the technology or the willingness to spend the money to get it at the time, as there were more readily available and cheaper sources.
Remember a gallon of gas was probably 30 cents. It was .50 cents in the late 1960's.
Several countries lay claim to all or parts of the South China Sea.
Vietnam, China, Taiwan, The Phillipines and Brunei.
At some point the US had recognized Taiwan as a separate country from China.
Brunei and The Phillipines were our very good Allies at the time.
If Vietnam had become Capitalist instead of Communist,
the West would have had 4 places around the South China Sea from which to launch operations.
Now that China has become more active, threatening the sovereign waters of the other countries to include Vietnam.
The Vietnamese need a big friend. They just concluded an arms deal with the US.
In addition President Trump met North Korean President Kim in Hanoi.
In other words follow the money.
@@tonylipton4068 I know.
I was tiptoeing around the situation, trying not to upset an algorithm.
@@tonylipton4068 Yes.
It is a strange thing when multinational companies have to agree to policies that indirectly lead to what can and can not be done or said.
Mostly to protect the owners of the Michelin Tire Company investments. The shit started in 1945 to keep General DeGaul happy. Wrong war at the wrong time in the wrong place. More Americans made money off the war than died in it. That was way too many.
Peacenic River Rat
Whats the thing in the opposite side of the bug juice?
A church-key.
Ithaca deer slayer
Beach Jumpers and SEABEES.
I carried a 590 and am still here. Good enough for me. Oh, one other thing, SEAL's didn't exist till after the VN conflict if I remember right.
Winchester 97 is/ was the best.
Navy infantry = Navy Seabees!
Look for a River Rat.
Steven 77e is outperformed by guns like Ithaca and 870 during the war cuz the trigger guard of Stevens is plastic and known to be fragile. Not to mention many units still carry win m12.
"more modern"=cheaper
Is that real holy water on your helmet?
It's bug dope. It's holy water in the jungle
@@jameswhoneedstoknow5148 What he said ^.
Italy' s army use shotgun as well... ewerYone know how much italians love shotguns right? XD
You look young for a Nam vet........
In this life, I'm not a Nam vet.
@@MikeB128 lol i know bro im just playing with you! Ive watched many of the vids!
I know. All good and thanks for watching!
Dead president movie