You could also argue that Spies are Forever isn't really a spy movie... It's a tragedy. It's not triumphant cause the story never really is except for the moment of safe space with Tatiana and Curt at the end meeting her and moving on slowly.
It isnt really a tragedy, but a redemption arc. These have many elements in common with tragedies, but differ in the fact that the protagonist manages to change early enough to avoid their fate. As any good redemption arc, its not straightfoward, its not pretty, and mistakes are made along thw way, but in the end, the character improves and becomes better. As Timothy Hickson says, there's a redemption trifecta, composed from the views of self that the caracter has, their views of the world, and the stakes (and how they see them). At the beginning, (prologue/time before owen's death not counting), Curt sees himself as a failure, even though he tries not to. The stakes he sees are all about him proving that he can be a spy again, even though nazis are trying to rebuild their empire (a bit selfish, eh? well, that's agent Curt Mega), and he really doesnt think much of the world, as he's so full of himself in one way or another that he really doesnt notice or care about other people beyond the bare minimum needed to do what he does. Then, we get a radical shift in circunstance, where he goes back to spying, and he has to face the consequences of his actions, and both things have the same origin: Owen isn't there, and without Owen to keep him in check, Curt keeps on making mistakes. You cant have ying without yang. If this was a tragedy, DMA/Owen wouldve killed Curt during torture tango. But it isnt. Then, we have the third big change, in someone entering Curts life as a positive influence. Tatiana saves him, and then befriends him, allowing him to open up. Maybe he's not a failure. Maybe he can stop pretending and trying so hard to be what he isnt. Maybe he can let others in. And starts doing it, and we see his view of the world change a bit. Now he shows empathy to Barb and actually befriends people he woulde ignored before. Then, Owen comes back, so Curt may not be a failure, since what made him a failure was letting Owen die, and Owen isnt dead. So now he cares about the world, doesnt see himself as such a failure, and instead of wanting to prove something, he wants to stop Owen and get closure on that situation. He's a changed character, all the pieces of the redemption arc are set, and we can watch the end unfold. AND ALL OF THIS FROM THE MUSICAL THAT HAS A VILLIAN WITH THE NAME OF DOCTOR BARON VON NAZI
You pointed out Owen's hesitation when Curt brings up their past but you missed a thing that i don't think anybody really notices? i screamed about it on tumblr a couple years ago but i don't think anyone's mentioned it since. The thing i view equally as important (if not more so) is that Owen's gun is _uncocked_ for the majority of the staircase scene. He only cocks it after reprising Coldest Goodbye, having reminded himself of the way Curt hurt him. Meanwhile, Curt cocks his gun *the moment* the staircase scene begins. I will forever be fascinated by this, even if it's just there to make the reprise sound cooler via the clicking sound. It is such a Choice, to have Owen be as good as unarmed during the first couple of minutes.
I think it's because Owen doesn't feel threatened by Curt until that moment,, physically fighting? not a problem, bringing feelings into it? Oh I should be on guard
i started watching because this is a video essay about a topic i don't really care about (those video essays are always the most interesting for some reason), but had to stop midway through and watch the musical myself. congrats, you reignited my interest in musicals.
I wonder considering the way both motifs present themselves in the musical that we could say the idea of love (and the act of trust and belief in those you love) can be analogous to the concept of being a “Spy”. Like, considering the motifs “from the warmest hello, to the coldest goodbye” the metaphor of love could be assumed in the icon of a Spy- that such love “never dies” but is “forever”.
I was thinking about this still- and it’s more articulate to say the motif of the word “spy” is contained exclusively between the Curt and Owen’s relationship and the feelings that change as their dynamic shifts- Ok im done!! Sorry for rambling! :D
I love this and I love the analysis of the safehouse scene in particular because I love how opening up to someone and making friends completely changes Curt's outlook on life, which is reflected in the music. The fact that there are no instances of the remembrance motifs in the following songs, I love that, it shows Curt is finally able to live his life without the memory of Owen haunting him for the first time. And then how you pointed out that the next time the motif appears it's actually sung by Owen himself - I love that, it's this amazing representation of Curt's memories and feelings getting twisted against him and used to hurt him. This was a great essay, it articulates so well why this musical is so good.
*michael from the office voice* OK IT’S HAPPENING. EVERYONE STAY CALM- This is gonna be so good oh my stars im gonna die of excitement!!! Im probably gonna update this comment with post essay ramble lol Edit: IT WAS INCREDIBLE THIS IS SO GOOD YES WOW there is a sad lack of SAF video essays so this is literally perfect, what an excellent Christmas gift I hadn’t thought about remembrance in terms of Curt recalling his former self so thank you for that connection! The “Owen’s not dead!…Schwoopsie?” Killed me lol Anyways this is so good and you have a large mighty brain for making this
Thank you so much for making this!!!! I'm currently working on a 40 slide presentation about SaF that I'm going to present to my friends after I force them to watch it with me - so your ideas are a very helpful supplement to my own ideas
Not sure how this came up on my recommendations now and not five months ago but I'm so glad it did finally!! One of my all time favorite shows and I love seeing it receive more love!
So glad to see more people making video essays about these shows! Love to see hear about aspects I'm not so knowledgeable about. Music theory is not one of my strong areas this was very interesting.
This video rocks! I'm a huge Starkid fan (obvious if you look at my channel) but Spies Are Forever is the only musical I've watched from their sister company so I love seeing it broken down in this way.
this was so awesome ahh !! as a huge music & spies are forever nerd this is absolutely right up my alley omg i’ve been dying to watch more saf video essays thank youu !!
This is so cool! Video essays like this are my favorite, I love to see things be analyzed and overanalyzed. It really shows the love and dedication of this fandom & community. ❤ Happy Holidays
Ok, I started watching, because this is subject, I care and kind of understand in... So here's a couple of corrections: When character sings certain words, they do not sing certain words melody. As an example Spies are forever motif, and Forever Motif - are completely different melodies. One is "E D B C A" and other is "Bb Ab C G F Ab Eb Db" (or if you want in the same key, then it's "D C E B A C G F"), and it's definitely not the same as in "Torture Tango" (at least in the clip that you showed). And here's the upsetting part, cause you also mentioned other motif, that I'd argue features both those ideas: "The coldest good bye" features both "the coldest good bye part" (floor made out of floor, I know) and Forever motif, which kind of actually resembles Remembrance motif, more then Spies are forever motif (which, I'd recomend to just seperate from Forever motif, since it's different melodies). And finally - since melodies are changing depending on the context of the story (as an example with "CG" motif) - then I'd argue it's more of a leitmotif, since Letimotif is more of a flexibility of a certain melody. Forever, as an example is more of a Leitmotif, since it's featured in both "Coldest GoodBye" and "Spies are forever" (the song). And in "Spy again" - the coldest Goodbye, is kind of was cut in half, and repeated, as if he was refusing to remember Owen, but can't cause it's Owen. Other then that - this was good done video, I enjoyed it. And I definitely would love to rewatch my favorite scene once again (yes, I too love Act 2 scene 2, It's goddamn hilarious, and in my opinion best "love" duet song in all of Starkid/Tin Can bros songs))
as someone who is always obsessed with motifs in any form of art, i am so incredibly amazed by this video and so happy you are talking about this, i really enjoyed this video and i'm looking forward to more of your video's!
IT'S SO GOOD WOW GREAT JOB !! never payed attention to this i think i'll rewatch saf for the hundredth time lmao you inspire me to make an essay too, at least a short one, but it's so much work, that's amazing how you managed to make it so good
wonderful video! i always really enjoy in-depth analysis of the musicals i like, and i rarely see these types of videos being done on starkid(-adjacent) musicals, so this was a real treat :)
Wow I loved this video essay! Thank you for analyzing this musical, it’s one I find absolutely beautiful and hilarious 🤧 P.S. Many thanks for voicing the snub that was Dear Evan (fucking) Hansen winning over Great Comet (one of my absolute faves)
Aaa this is so great!! And sad. Just for fun, if you want a Bond movie that breaks formula, On Her Majesty's Secret Service is a good one. The start is a little slow but the second half is wild and the ending is heartbreaking.
16:26 "what Curt wants and needs is to once again be able to trust in others and through that himself" Yes this! Trust comes up throughout this musical so much in such a beautiful way. The way Owen and Curt's trust for one another is so clearly displayed throughout the first scene, the way that trust being broken is the catalyst for everything to come. And then Tatiana feels like a reversal of that. She betrays Curt before they even have a chance to form any trust. But then she saves him and they form a bond, they let each other in and are now able to trust in one another. I think this focus on trust is especially present just by having a gay protagonist set in the 50s-60s. It's very subtle as it's not the focus of the musical, but it's still so incredibly important. The fact that Curt and Owen live in a world where they can't trust anyone with their secret is an integral part of the story despite only being brought up directly in one line. This video is so very well done
You could also argue that Spies are Forever isn't really a spy movie... It's a tragedy. It's not triumphant cause the story never really is except for the moment of safe space with Tatiana and Curt at the end meeting her and moving on slowly.
real!!
I would agree!
It isnt really a tragedy, but a redemption arc. These have many elements in common with tragedies, but differ in the fact that the protagonist manages to change early enough to avoid their fate. As any good redemption arc, its not straightfoward, its not pretty, and mistakes are made along thw way, but in the end, the character improves and becomes better.
As Timothy Hickson says, there's a redemption trifecta, composed from the views of self that the caracter has, their views of the world, and the stakes (and how they see them).
At the beginning, (prologue/time before owen's death not counting), Curt sees himself as a failure, even though he tries not to. The stakes he sees are all about him proving that he can be a spy again, even though nazis are trying to rebuild their empire (a bit selfish, eh? well, that's agent Curt Mega), and he really doesnt think much of the world, as he's so full of himself in one way or another that he really doesnt notice or care about other people beyond the bare minimum needed to do what he does.
Then, we get a radical shift in circunstance, where he goes back to spying, and he has to face the consequences of his actions, and both things have the same origin: Owen isn't there, and without Owen to keep him in check, Curt keeps on making mistakes. You cant have ying without yang. If this was a tragedy, DMA/Owen wouldve killed Curt during torture tango. But it isnt. Then, we have the third big change, in someone entering Curts life as a positive influence. Tatiana saves him, and then befriends him, allowing him to open up. Maybe he's not a failure. Maybe he can stop pretending and trying so hard to be what he isnt. Maybe he can let others in. And starts doing it, and we see his view of the world change a bit. Now he shows empathy to Barb and actually befriends people he woulde ignored before. Then, Owen comes back, so Curt may not be a failure, since what made him a failure was letting Owen die, and Owen isnt dead. So now he cares about the world, doesnt see himself as such a failure, and instead of wanting to prove something, he wants to stop Owen and get closure on that situation. He's a changed character, all the pieces of the redemption arc are set, and we can watch the end unfold.
AND ALL OF THIS FROM THE MUSICAL THAT HAS A VILLIAN WITH THE NAME OF DOCTOR BARON VON NAZI
You pointed out Owen's hesitation when Curt brings up their past but you missed a thing that i don't think anybody really notices? i screamed about it on tumblr a couple years ago but i don't think anyone's mentioned it since. The thing i view equally as important (if not more so) is that Owen's gun is _uncocked_ for the majority of the staircase scene. He only cocks it after reprising Coldest Goodbye, having reminded himself of the way Curt hurt him. Meanwhile, Curt cocks his gun *the moment* the staircase scene begins.
I will forever be fascinated by this, even if it's just there to make the reprise sound cooler via the clicking sound. It is such a Choice, to have Owen be as good as unarmed during the first couple of minutes.
I think it's because Owen doesn't feel threatened by Curt until that moment,, physically fighting? not a problem, bringing feelings into it? Oh I should be on guard
Holy shit, I feel people rarely analyze any of the musicals done by TCB and Starkid which is a shame. What an amazingly well done video
i love gay people but why always one of them gotta be evil
Oh it’s like that one tumblr post of “behind every gay person is a more evil, gayer person” or something like that
When one of the internet's favorite mottos is "Be gay, Do crimes" some of us don't chicken out in the first half.
i started watching because this is a video essay about a topic i don't really care about (those video essays are always the most interesting for some reason), but had to stop midway through and watch the musical myself. congrats, you reignited my interest in musicals.
omg so glad to hear that!!
Would very much recommend Starkids musicals, Spies are Forever is kinda an honorary member of the Starkid lineup, sharing a lot of cast members
@@HugoGojibiter so is solve it squad, the forgotten middle child who I love dearly
In the height of my Spies are Forever fixation rn and this essay is amazing! I'd never thought about the score like this before
I wonder considering the way both motifs present themselves in the musical that we could say the idea of love (and the act of trust and belief in those you love) can be analogous to the concept of being a “Spy”.
Like, considering the motifs “from the warmest hello, to the coldest goodbye” the metaphor of love could be assumed in the icon of a Spy- that such love “never dies” but is “forever”.
I was thinking about this still- and it’s more articulate to say the motif of the word “spy” is contained exclusively between the Curt and Owen’s relationship and the feelings that change as their dynamic shifts-
Ok im done!! Sorry for rambling! :D
I love this and I love the analysis of the safehouse scene in particular because I love how opening up to someone and making friends completely changes Curt's outlook on life, which is reflected in the music. The fact that there are no instances of the remembrance motifs in the following songs, I love that, it shows Curt is finally able to live his life without the memory of Owen haunting him for the first time. And then how you pointed out that the next time the motif appears it's actually sung by Owen himself - I love that, it's this amazing representation of Curt's memories and feelings getting twisted against him and used to hurt him. This was a great essay, it articulates so well why this musical is so good.
Love that you did this💙 also I can’t get over how beautiful Joey looks in the staircase scene…
*michael from the office voice* OK IT’S HAPPENING. EVERYONE STAY CALM-
This is gonna be so good oh my stars im gonna die of excitement!!! Im probably gonna update this comment with post essay ramble lol
Edit: IT WAS INCREDIBLE THIS IS SO GOOD YES WOW
there is a sad lack of SAF video essays so this is literally perfect, what an excellent Christmas gift
I hadn’t thought about remembrance in terms of Curt recalling his former self so thank you for that connection! The “Owen’s not dead!…Schwoopsie?” Killed me lol
Anyways this is so good and you have a large mighty brain for making this
Thank you so much for making this!!!! I'm currently working on a 40 slide presentation about SaF that I'm going to present to my friends after I force them to watch it with me - so your ideas are a very helpful supplement to my own ideas
glad to hear it!
don’t be shy, drop the link
I absolutely agree with the part at 6:40! I always replay it, it sounds so great! (And 7:30.)
Not sure how this came up on my recommendations now and not five months ago but I'm so glad it did finally!! One of my all time favorite shows and I love seeing it receive more love!
this is inspiring me to watch spies are forever again. i noticed this before and i think it's super cool how they keep the similar motif throughout :)
So glad to see more people making video essays about these shows! Love to see hear about aspects I'm not so knowledgeable about. Music theory is not one of my strong areas this was very interesting.
This video rocks!
I'm a huge Starkid fan (obvious if you look at my channel) but Spies Are Forever is the only musical I've watched from their sister company so I love seeing it broken down in this way.
this was so awesome ahh !! as a huge music & spies are forever nerd this is absolutely right up my alley omg i’ve been dying to watch more saf video essays thank youu !!
More spies content!! God knows we don’t have enough of it
This is so cool! Video essays like this are my favorite, I love to see things be analyzed and overanalyzed. It really shows the love and dedication of this fandom & community. ❤ Happy Holidays
Ok, I started watching, because this is subject, I care and kind of understand in... So here's a couple of corrections:
When character sings certain words, they do not sing certain words melody. As an example Spies are forever motif, and Forever Motif - are completely different melodies. One is "E D B C A" and other is "Bb Ab C G F Ab Eb Db" (or if you want in the same key, then it's "D C E B A C G F"), and it's definitely not the same as in "Torture Tango" (at least in the clip that you showed). And here's the upsetting part, cause you also mentioned other motif, that I'd argue features both those ideas: "The coldest good bye" features both "the coldest good bye part" (floor made out of floor, I know) and Forever motif, which kind of actually resembles Remembrance motif, more then Spies are forever motif (which, I'd recomend to just seperate from Forever motif, since it's different melodies).
And finally - since melodies are changing depending on the context of the story (as an example with "CG" motif) - then I'd argue it's more of a leitmotif, since Letimotif is more of a flexibility of a certain melody. Forever, as an example is more of a Leitmotif, since it's featured in both "Coldest GoodBye" and "Spies are forever" (the song). And in "Spy again" - the coldest Goodbye, is kind of was cut in half, and repeated, as if he was refusing to remember Owen, but can't cause it's Owen.
Other then that - this was good done video, I enjoyed it. And I definitely would love to rewatch my favorite scene once again (yes, I too love Act 2 scene 2, It's goddamn hilarious, and in my opinion best "love" duet song in all of Starkid/Tin Can bros songs))
as someone who is always obsessed with motifs in any form of art, i am so incredibly amazed by this video and so happy you are talking about this, i really enjoyed this video and i'm looking forward to more of your video's!
6:40 Is it bad that I only noticed Owen was in this scene the second time I saw this show??
Omg this video is amazing!!! Spies Are Forever is such a good musical with an amazing score and soundtrack
This essay was amazing PLEASE MAKE MORE
Okay, these few snippets at the end are also amazing 🎉🎉🎉
more will definitely be coming eventually!
This is such a good video essay holy shit
This is a FANTASTIC essay! I hope you make more in the future. You're very eloquent!
tysm! more are in the works :)
IT'S SO GOOD WOW GREAT JOB !!
never payed attention to this i think i'll rewatch saf for the hundredth time lmao
you inspire me to make an essay too, at least a short one, but it's so much work, that's amazing how you managed to make it so good
tysm!!
i could listen to you talk about scores for hours please keep making these!
i love this!!! bringing the recognition SAF deserves
wonderful video! i always really enjoy in-depth analysis of the musicals i like, and i rarely see these types of videos being done on starkid(-adjacent) musicals, so this was a real treat :)
This is an amazing analysis, and helped me see Spies are Forever in a sort of new light! Thanks for making this!! 💖
Wow I loved this video essay! Thank you for analyzing this musical, it’s one I find absolutely beautiful and hilarious 🤧
P.S. Many thanks for voicing the snub that was Dear Evan (fucking) Hansen winning over Great Comet (one of my absolute faves)
This show and particularly this video is my roman empire.
This is such a good video essay ❤ great work x
This was amazing omg- You just revived my SAF hyperfixation btw xD
This is a great essay!
Of to re-watch spies are forever for the 200th time but now with notes
Aaa this is so great!! And sad. Just for fun, if you want a Bond movie that breaks formula, On Her Majesty's Secret Service is a good one. The start is a little slow but the second half is wild and the ending is heartbreaking.
Ooh I'll have to check it out!
Your Spies are Forever poster is so fucking cool! Where did you get it?
also, great video. Loved the analysis
tysm! and my gf got it for me, it was on redbubble i believe!
this was beautiful
Loved this, youre doing gods work
Tf did peggy do to you?
Poor girl wasn't in the show long enough to get a motif 😭
@@considerablecolorslmao
@considerablecolors also to be clear I do think you mare a good high quality video, I was just teasing
16:26 "what Curt wants and needs is to once again be able to trust in others and through that himself"
Yes this! Trust comes up throughout this musical so much in such a beautiful way. The way Owen and Curt's trust for one another is so clearly displayed throughout the first scene, the way that trust being broken is the catalyst for everything to come.
And then Tatiana feels like a reversal of that. She betrays Curt before they even have a chance to form any trust. But then she saves him and they form a bond, they let each other in and are now able to trust in one another.
I think this focus on trust is especially present just by having a gay protagonist set in the 50s-60s. It's very subtle as it's not the focus of the musical, but it's still so incredibly important. The fact that Curt and Owen live in a world where they can't trust anyone with their secret is an integral part of the story despite only being brought up directly in one line. This video is so very well done