I like the old ways of playing. I was our DM, and I (we) kept track of time in game, rations, money, etc...We all enjoyed our games, there was depth and a strategy my players used. It was great. Then a new friend joined the group. He had played before, extensively. He did not like the "exrta" details. Enjoyment definitely suffered. It wasn't long after that we got into Rogue Trader and DnD was left behind. That was the late 80's. We are getting the DnD back on the table now. I'm staying with our original AD&D game. It's the best. ❤
This is a wonderful analysis. Magic use in early D&D rewarded careful thought, planning, and judgement. I remember playing at an Origins tournament around '78. My pregen was a level one MU with 1 hit point and one spell. That spell was shield. It was a competition and I knew it all came down to knowing when to use the spell. I don't recall who won, but I survived to the end of the game (most didn't). I went away feeling extremely proud, to the point that I remember it after 45 years.
That is such a great story! I love hearing about people's game memories, and it's especially cool to me that you were at an Origins tournament near the very founding of the hobby! You clearly were playing in a cautious and smart manner to survive to the end!
The crew was bashing in a door with a bunch of gits behind it. One of them has a single spell, Shield, and immediately uses it on himself. So when they come running in they immediately start whacking his friends, but find out there is an almost impervious dude at the back constantly shooting a pistol at them.
@@rcschmidt668 Some OSR games did away with weapon limitations, some don't even limit armour but just calculate weight instead. An MU then fights close to a level 0 man-at-arms. The MU can pick up a shotgun and shoot someone, just not as good as a fighter. And especially not with the same hp as a fighter to back them up when someone shoots back.
I run my own system of D&D that i built specifically for people to be able to sit down and play with little to no learning curve. I use inventory management like this: every player gets their own copy of the od&d item list. You can hold items equal to your Con score. You can invest in an item slot which means when you need a specific item you can have any item from the regular shop appear in that item slot so long as your investment would cover the cost. I use tangible coins and gems as well so you can just place your coin or gem of appropriate value on item slot on your character sheet at the table
Sounds like a fun system! I know a few retro-clones such as Lamentations of the Flame Princess use slot-based encumbrance, and I do like that idea a lot. Thank you for watching and commenting!
Oh, wow... I used to read Order of the Stick all the time back in the early 3E days when I discovered it. I spent many a lunch hour at work trying to catch up on back episodes, but I later got let go from that job and didn't have Internet access at home (I know that must sound strange in these days, but it was true at the time!) so I stopped reading for a few months before finding another job, and I never went back.
First off, I want to thank you for your videos. Really brings me down memory lane, and I occasionally learn something new. My homebrew got rid of fire and forget, spells per level, and all that. I feel that magic should be dark and mysterious, unpredictable and dangerous. Not just a cut-and-dried, safe list of spells. So I went with a roll-to-cast system. You roll for everything else in that game, so why not? A chance of a spell fizzling and ruining your plans really spices things up. And if you critically fail, it could end up causing damage to the caster, aging them, even mutating them (scales instead of skin, anyone?). In my solo game recently, I managed to flub the roll, magically paralyze my ally, and suffer a point of Corruption (which adds to the miscast result and can make a bad situation even worse). And yes, my preferences run more towards Conan and Elric than Tolkien and Forgotten Realms.
Thank you so much! I'm very glad you enjoy the videos and that sometimes you learn something new from them. I'm running a B/X game for my daughter and her friends right now and at the beginning I decide to adhere pretty closely to RAW but after a few sessions of playing, I wish I'd implemented roll-to-cast because I, too, was looking at a more swords-and-sorcery world where magic is dangerous and unpredictable. I have had specific situations arise where the casters do have to roll (based on a place being so evil that it tainted the magic auras, etc.) but I didn't want to change the system on the players mid-game. The next time I start a new campaign, though, I'm definitely considering adding that kind of element to it. Thanks for sharing!
I started out with a 1e/2e amalgam game and Vancian Magic was heavily enforced. Didn’t think anything of it. But I didn’t truly GET Vancian Magic until I actually read the Dying Earth stories. And now I’m more of a believer than ever before. It felt like magic and not superpowers like in modern editions. The stories by Jack Vance felt like you were reading folklore and mythology and the way magic was portrayed enhanced that feeling. So for those that just think of game balance and mechanics try actually reading the Dying Earth stories so you’ll truly understand the magic of the concept.
I very much agree! I also (at the time) wasn't aware of Vance's stories when I discovered D&D, but I also didn't have any context as far as D&D, so the spellcasting rules didn't bother me. Once I discovered Vance, I began to figure out why the D&D magic rules work the way they do. Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
The way I tend to think about it is that early D&D functioned like a roguelike. Regarding Tenser's Floating Disk, Tenser realized that they were accumulating more good in their adventures than he could carry, so he came up with a spell that would allow him to lift the gold off the ground and move it with him along smooth, flat surfaces, without needing to fight against the weight. Someone in bronze-age mesopotamia had a very similar idea, attaching wooden disks to a basket. Tenser *LITERALLY* _reinvented the wheel._
@fanda6122 An emphasis on dungeon crawls, dungeon layouts determined by die rolls or arbitrary whim, monsters and treasure placed equally arbitrarily, little and mostly irrelevant narrative context, progress measured largely by the treasure you find (xp was based on how much treasure you got out with), and the expectation that the player characters are expendable and any given dungeon crawl will be unique in its details but functionally interchangeable with any other dungeon crawl. That's largely how Gygax and Arneson ran the game, judging by what I've read, and how early editions were designed to function.
I had never played Chainmail or OD&D, having only discovered its existence in 1980 or 81 when I stumbled on a Red Box B/X and gaped in wonder at the notion I could PLAY A GAME like Conan, Elric or LotR. I must have stood there smitten for some minutes, gaping like a fool, before hastily opening my wallet to determine if I had enough money to buy it. :)
Thank you for sharing your story! For me, friends at school said that D&D was like Lord of the Rings, but you got to BE Strider instead of just read about him! So, it was kind of similar to your experiences, except you using the original pulp fantasy inspirations! And, thank you for watching and commenting!
I had never seen an actual game of D&D played - only heard about it from classmates at school. Their description was "it's about wizards and warriors fighting monsters, and the game went on forever". Whatever it was, I knew I had to get it. Xmas that year I received the Basic boxed set. One friend got Basic as well, another got AD&D. Together we figured out how to play. Good memories.
Another early rule of spell recovery that ties into resource management is it takes 15 minutes per level of spell to recover. Later editions automatically has them recover after a long rest.
I'm personally not a fan of either short or long rest mechanics the way they're handled in 5E. Nothing wrong with folks who like them, but it's just not my style. Thank you for watching and commenting!
Rest recovery spells came about lore wise cause Karsus broke the weave, and Mystral set new limits on magic users, like no spells beyond 9th level, you gotta sleep to get a spell back, etc. Mechanically, WotC is looking to change things every edition to keep it “new and interesting”
@@daddyrolleda1there’s an OSR I take from called Low Fantasy Gaming, and they have a several day long rest system (longer if not in a town, and short rests you have to make Will checks (they split wisdom into willpower and perception) in order to gain benefits.
@drkmgic Thank you for watching (hopefully you finished the video) and commenting! I really appreciate it. And... that's a tough question. I really think the magic system should be tied to the setting and the rules. For example, I think the system in Ars Magica works great for that particular setting and for the rules systems. I also think the very stripped down system in Savage Worlds is perfect for a game of "Fast, Furious, Fun!" (the mantra of Savage Worlds) because it works to capture that kind of aesthetic. Both of those are *very* different from the D&D system, but I think they are "ideal" for the system for which the were created. What about you? Do you have a magic system you prefer?
Thanks for the video! Catching up with some ones I missed. New name for cocktail? Sword of Cynar (or on the rocks, Elfstones of Cynar)! Have a good holiday,
Oh my goodness.. BRILLIANT! I am so going to make a cocktail like that! Thanks for the idea/suggestion. It'll take some workshopping, but look for it soon. And thanks for the holiday wishes. I hope your Fourth was fun as well!
Many have bemoaned the idea that a wizard “forgets” their spells every day - I think the best in-universe explanation of daily spell “memorization” comes from 3e - wizards prepare their spells in the morning by beginning the casting of the spell and stopping just before it is complete - spells are so complex and precise that wizards require references to perform the ritual, hence the spell book - when they decide to ultimately “cast” them, they finish the ritual with a quick flourish on their turn - if they want to cast that spell again, they have to have another copy prepared or rest and prepare it once again - the spell isn’t so much erased from their memory as it is completed, and the ritual must be started again to be able to cast it once more - this also was why sorcerers were special in 3e - they didn’t have to prepare spells and could cast any they knew as many or few times per day as they wished, tho they had a smaller pool - unfortunately the spells known to spell slots ratio never found a good balance between the two classes, and wizards pretty consistently out performed sorcerers - that said, sorcerers were a nice way to ease those new to casting into an arcane class - some have argued against that use of sorcerers, but it made sense at my table - this also was the source of spell mastery - a wizard could train a single spell to the point that they new the ritual by heart and didn’t require their spell book to prepare that spell after a rest - 3e got some things very right, which is why Paizo further refining it in Pathfinder was so amazing and why 5e just reverted to 3e ignoring much of 4e, except that everyone had magic - giving everyone magic in 5e basically tacked on an entirely new dimension to a game that was built on foundations unprepared for it
Thank you for watching and commenting! Your explanation is what I've been saying in the comments to the video when people say it's "stupid" that wizards "forget" spells. It's exactly like you said - they don't forget. They just "complete" the spell which means they have to prepare it again as the magical energy has been dispersed in the casting. Back in the late 1E / early 2E days, while "between games" and working on a campaign setting that I hoped to use, I started coming up with different approaches to magic and basically had a sorcerer type ("innate magic") before that was a thing, but I didn't make the rules as fiddly as they were in the 3E version.
If the ritual thing is accurate, why have limited spells per day, well as an in universe explanation. I suspect just like hit points, it's a game mechanic and we aren't supposed to think about much and just have fun.
Nah, the real answer is that the early writers of D&D were big fans of the writings of Jack Vance, and specifically they were fans of his Dying Earth novel(s) in which wizards cast spells by memorizing a spell formula/ritual, and then upon casting the spell the magic would literally burn the memory of itself out of their brains. That's the true origin of the "Vancian" magic system. So named for Jack Vance.
Yeah... That's how I've come to understand it. And since you brought it up (and I totally didn't just go looking for it in the comments) Pathfinder... My favorite TTRPG system, btw. 1st Edition, at least. But it is not without flaws. I know people really like it but infinite cantrips annoy me... It trivializes certain aspects of resource management. I heard somewhere that "cantrips are spells whose incantations are the same forwards and backwards" so I posit these magical little palindromes are usable twice per preparation... So more bang for your buck than it was in 3e, but now a single Cleric doesn't make torches obsolete for the rest of time... Just some of the time... Or up to 2 hours and 40 minutes a day at 20th level. Honestly, the math isn't all that bad. Really, it is better than I thought even with the "10 minutes a level" duration... That's how I run my next game if ever I get to run one again.
@@MisterZimbabwe Even if that is the real life origin, and even if we assume earlier versions copied it verbatim with no original thought at all, all it means it started that way. It still doesn't automatically means it remained or has to remain the same in-universe reasoning for all set ups using the system. The inspiration was for the gamey mechanics of it, for their resource management aspect, not really for the lore or how one is supposed to interpret it in role playing terms.
27:25 The resource management was an integral part of our D&D adventures when I was playing initially (1977 onward). We had to keep track of iron rations, rope, spikes, arrows, if we did not have a mule then we had to figure if we could carry stuff (even if we did), etc. We had to have bags to carry things. That was all part and parcel to exploring the dungeon!
We played that way, too, to a point but starting in the mid-late 80's, the groups I was playing with stopped doing that. The focus was more on "story" with stuff like Dragonlance. When I started playing 3E in the early 2000's, resource management wasn't even a consideration for the groups I played in.
The line about if magic is too easy and power players will get bored. That is exactly why I left 5E, however a lot of players I've had so far just want easy free power and no challenge. By the way I own a copy of Outdoor Survival but I've never played it. When I learned it was part of the inspiration of D&D I was curious so I looked it up thinking it would be expensive but it's surprisingly cheap. I also got an Avalon hill magazine that apparently has a Dune(As in Frank Herbert) scenario.
How cool you got a copy of Outdoor Survival! I only recently thought about maybe trying to track one down, but I haven't looked into it yet. That Dune game you're talking about, if it's the board game from the 1970's, is like a collector's item now and goes for a pretty penny among gamers who know what it is. After the license was canceled, a company recreated the game without the IP (I forget what it was called, off the top of my head), but just recently a revised game using the original IP was re-released! Thank you for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 I thought you had misunderstood me about the Dune thing because I thought it was a Scenario for Outdoor Survival published in Avalon hill magazine. However I Looked and it turns out I'm wrong there is a large review of the board game you're talking about but not a Dune Scenario for Outdoor Survival, instead it's a scenario called The Hunt. I really want to play Outdoor Survival, it would be hard to get a group to try it. I haven't spent much time looking into it and I wonder if it can be played solo, that might be fun. I'll report back in the future.
The big problem with resource management is that most designers use it like a coin operated TV while watching a sports game. So you have to get up every 10 minutes and put in a new coin which is just an annonyance when you just want to watch the game.
Outstanding Video! Again, thank you. I started with AD&D in early '79. I am pretty sure we micro-managed resources but I don't recall anyone ever being off-put by it --- in fact, it was "rewarding" to have what was needed in the moment when it was the correct tool for the job while in the dungeon. I personally never really cared for Magick-users and their Spell progression / rules, but now I understand why more modern iterations of the game keep trying to recreate the Fighter while giving more, faster, meta magick to the Wizard. In an effort to make the Wizard more "appealing" they have had to increase the Damage output of the fighter to even attempt to keep any semblance of balance between the Characters. And of course that has led to the "arms race" that 5e represents nowadays. But still, "linear fighter, quadratic wizard" because higher level spells are still rather quick to cast and don't have that Constitution concept originally laid down by Arneson. There is a pearl of wisdom contained therein.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate your compliment, and also you watching and commenting! I really do like the Arneson idea of magic-users having spellcasting tied to their Constitution. It's a different way of implementing a rule of "you can only cast a certain number of spells per day" mechanic. Gary obviously chose fire-and-forget via the Vancian explanation, but Arneson accomplishes much of the same thing, and perhaps even a little more elegantly. Of course, he doesn't explain his rules in detail, but a clever and creative DM can of course figure out a system that makes sense. I know a lot of folks really hate the linear fighter / quadratic wizard, and I do get that, but to Gary, that was game balance. Fighters are "front-loaded" because they have more HP, better armor (so also better AC) and do more damage, so they are much more likely to survive an excursion into a dungeon than a magic-user is. So, the trade-off is that a magic-user who actually does survive those early levels is rewarded with a lot of power at higher levels. It doesn't always make sense or jive with modern game design theory, but it wasn't done without forethought. Thanks again!
This makes me so happy to hear! First, that you are running an old-school game with your family. That is music to my ears. I have a whole playlist here on the channel (the "DM Advice" one) that's mostly about the old-school Moldvay Basic D&D game I run for my daughter and her friends. Secondly, I am really glad to hear that my ideas are inspiring you for your game. That's the main reason I started this channel, so hearing that people are inspired by my ideas is a real morale boost. Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I'd love to hear about your game after you get going.
I really like the idea of having to prepare magical reagents as spell preparation much more than "your brain is a mind-trap for spell energy". And with a "you have to let the magical dough rise before any more lightning bolts can be cast", you have a much better diegetic explanation for why if the wizard has a few hours free time, they can't memorize some new spells - you mix it at dinner time, and it's not ready until breakfast! As for resource management, I've been playing for about 3 decades now, and resource management through counting discreet instances of single resources has never felt fun; when to use a magical ability, who to cast the last fireball in the rod at - those are more interesting choices, but usually the math of rations v. travel time always just became "we'll take twice as many as we need." I prefer different mechanics to provide interesting choices, but then I thought of RPGs as less about resource management, and more about dealing with unexpected situations (often driven or generated by random dice), and making interesting choices in response. And it's cool that people can play the same game in different ways, and have different kinds of fun.
Growing up, we never used resource management in our games. As I've come around to running a game for my daughter and her friends using an older edition (1981 Basic), I've learned resource management can be a lot of fun. As you said, it does speak to the flexibility of the system that different people can play different ways and still have fun. Thank you for watching and commenting!
35:00 advanced shooter games like Far Cry 4: when to stealth. When to run away. When to use car. When to throw Animal Lure. Where to place the explosive on the road / outpost... No-stealth zombie mowing is pretty different.
Regarding 'D&D as Competition'; I've actually been playing since '74, when the 3 brothers 3 doors down the street got the Original Woodgrain Box. I've played and run every edition since, (except the miniatures game that lied about being an RPG), both as campaigns with long-running groups and as one-off tournaments. I have always considered RP as a 'cooperative competition', where the challenge was to create interesting stories by interacting with differing goals.
That is fantastic that you've been playing since the year it came out and have continued to play since! Thanks for sharing your story! I've played most of the editions, except I've never actually *played* OD&D or Holmes, and while we used modules from BECMI, I never had those rules or the Rules Cyclopedia. I also never got a chance to play a straight an Advanced 2E game (had a ton of books and created a lot of NPCs and and scenarios, but we had moved shortly before that edition came out and it took me forever to find a new group, and by the time I found one, they were playing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, not 2E). My most hours of playing is combined 3E/3.5/Pathfinder1E (I consider them together, from a mechanics standpoint) and only played 4E and 5E briefly. Do you have a favorite set of mechanics/edition? Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 for depth of character "development", the rules in 3/3.5 work best for me, but early 5e is what I consider best for teaching the core mechanics & concepts.
My brother and I play a first edition/second edition hybrid, and we use the spell point system, as it allows magic users and clerics to use a wider range of spells
More great stuff! One thing a lot of starting characters gloss over are the cost of material components, 100gp for 'Find Familiar'! In one game this became a pre-adventure mission, resulting in the wizard charming a local cleric to let him have the component at half price; the cleric rolled very low on the saving roll becoming the wizardsfavourite fan.... the second part of this spell, the casting / waiting time caused the rest of the party to gain some rumours about where they were going, the familiar turned out to be an owl, (a silent flying nocturnal scout...).
Yes, for sure! I know when we were kids, we *always* hand-waved the material components, but I make it an integral part of the game I run with my daughter (even though technically B/X doesn't have material components). It can be a very fun part of a campaign, going to search for material components, particularly really rare ones for higher level spells! Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
I think Familiar has never been a spell people like to use. Either the familiar produced is too useless or the cost of getting your pet owl killed is too high. In 2nd ed it was -1 CON permanently, and it was fairly easy to kill these little animals. They could stay at the back of formations but that didn't save them from the occasional gas attack.
@@SusCalvin not having played 2nd the CON loss is a better solution, however the fact you can get 'magical creatures' only 5% of the time only leads to the wrangling on the PC's part, better to ignore the result of 15 or replace it with player choice of lesser creatures, and a single HP if it is killed. These are 1st an 2nd characters that use this spell in the main and it can give massive benifits while there for a mere 100gp... Oh and I have seen DM's overly target familiars, they seem to forget cats have 9 lives so why not other familiars too!
@@AyebeeMk2 Familiars end up getting killed even if they actively keep them at the back and I actively target more important threats. They can spring a trap and fall down, and this 1HD toad takes a little bit of fall damage and dies. Any sort of breath attack and the familiar gets it too. I don't know exactly what familiars give. In 3rd they gave you a feat, like Alertness +2 from acting as lookouts etc. It could sneak around and look into a room for you, but a housecat can fight and defeat most familiars one on one.
never played 2,3,3.5,4,5 also their own weight would fail to set off traps otherwise every gust of wind would do the same, further; most house cats can be defeated by a cucumber (see vids), area weapons: it is well know how 'pets' avoid accidents etc when owners are engulfed by them, also they can be anywhere with a mile, that is a huge area for a breath area weapon. 'Players' on the other hand who use their familiars as suicide tripwires deserve everything coming to them... @@SusCalvin
Another wonderful video. It's interesting that Gygax recognized the martial/caster imbalance as early as 1976 (a few months before I was born!), but 47 years later we are still dealing with it. I love how earlier versions of D&D balanced compared to 5e. 5e is still a great system, but earlier versions were more complex in how classes and races were balanced (or how tradeoffs were made when classes and races were intentionally unbalanced).
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate your outlook. I think every edition has pros and cons and things to offer, and I borrow liberally from a variety of editions in the B/X game I run for my daughter and her friends. Thanks again!
It depends on what kind of game you wanna play i think if you want to use resouce management. If you want to play a Story game with set pieces i think you don't want a lot of recouse managment as it slows down the story. But if you want to play an exploration game where you create your own story it makes sense. i like both things. Sometimes it is relaxing not to think about resources but it can be intriguing as well.
A lot of older RPG books are written with more enthusiasm than editing skill. They can make a procedure harder than it is when they don't have the words for it. But I think the procedure at heart is simple and leaves more time for the story and events. I think some story-heavy games that tries to create story with a mechanic are more cumbersome, and accidentally puts great limits on what my PC can say and feel and think.
I like the idea that magic just has special rules and the nature of casting a spell is that you only get it once a day. No multiple castings of anything, no changing out one spell for a other. If you choose sleep then that’s your spell choice, you get it once a day and that’s it. It takes further magic to be able to cast anything more than once per day. But also the Blackmoor version of having a limited amount of ingredients ready is a much better choice than ‘memorizing and forgetting’ spells.
I think both can have their uses. I used to hate fire-and-forget magic when I was a kid, but in the game I'm currently running for my daughter, I am really liking it and the players don't seem to mind (but as I always point out, they also don't have any context for anything different, so they're not comparing it to something else). I definitely like using the rarity of components, but I combine it with fire-and-forget. Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I hope you stick around and find other videos you like!
So, 36:10 - I find that different genres of game are great for different systems, and the various D&D editions each support stories different from each other. Though hardly my favorite version of the game, I’ve been enjoying 4e lately, and I always enjoy the fact that most statements made by older editions get brought up there, too. “It’s a resource management game.” applies to each edition, but each interfaces with that phrase in completely different ways. Even when you have at Will abilities, you have resources to manage-hit points, if nothing else, but hit dice, and other notable limits exist. In those cases, it becomes a matter of what genre you most want to emulate (as well as which mechanics you find fun to interface with). Thing is, the types of fantasy genres you can make with the different editions don’t always readily map to recognizable genres we tend to have in other fiction, so it can be difficult at times to tell what your creating. Overall it’s fascinating.
This was a good review. Most games I've played in the DM changed magic to a "mana" type system, more along the lines of what a sorceror is now. They hated the idea of having to memorize spells that you could only cast once, even if you could cast three spells in a day.
Thank you for watching and commenting! My experience has been that the Vancian style of magic is one of the first things a lot of folks change when they begin to tinker with the system. I used to really dislike it, but I've come back around to appreciating it for the choices it forces one to make in the game, and how it adds to world-building. But I also enjoy games that don't use that type of system.
Gary hated Wizards/Magic Users and couldn't understand why anyone would ever want to play one. He picked the Vancian system because it made sense in terms of game mechanics. He was incredibly well read in terms of fantasy literature and game rules/mechanics, and the Vancian system was the most straightforward in terms of structuring limitations on players. When people talk about "Old School" D&D I think they often mean stripped back rules, and the imminent threat of death, but for me it's about the style of play. Hex Crawls, Dungeon Survival and Resource Management are the sort of things that make an old school game for me. All of which can be done in pretty much any RPG. My current (AD&D) game had the players start in a prison in a desert, and after they escaped, and had to find their way home, (being only 1st level) the Priest had to choose whether he was going to memorize Create Water ahead of Cure Light Wounds. Months later, when they were back in their homeland, when he finally hit 5th Level and could use "Create Food and Drink" there was an almost palpable sigh of relief from the entire party.
Yes, Gary definitely had that viewpoint on wizards/magic-users! I mentioned it in one of my earlier videos - either the one on Clerics/Paladins/Rangers/Illusionists/Bards or the one on Assassins/Monks/Druids. But yes, his fantasy fiction growing up all featured big muscle-bound fighter type heroes on the cover, not "weak" magic-users, and in much of the inspirational fiction, magic-use is akin to being evil (like in the Conan stories). Old School gaming being about a style of play and not about "rules light" is definitely the way I look at it as well, and hopefully that comes across in my videos. I do prefer systems that allow greater Referee freedom to make rulings, but also like play to focus on survival and resource management (I talk about that a lot in the videos on my campaign & session prep). Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@daddyrolleda1 I absolutely agree on the whole leaving it to the DM to adjudicate rulings. Most of my players live miles apart these days so in person gaming isn't an option, Roll20 has made it so simple for me to ditch ruleboooks and just go with whatever makes the most sense at the moment it happens. Played a 4 hour game session last night and the only time I checked a rulebook was when one of the players tried to rip a lightning conductor out of the floor, for some reason his character sheet hadn't autofilled his "Bend Bars/Lift Gates" and I checked the PHB for him. Everything else was either handled by macros for stndard/combat rolls, or I made rulings based on two factors; "Common Sense" and whether or not the players were making good decisions. I hate games when the players have a great idea, plan it out and execute it... then the dice let them down. I'd be interested to know your opinion on the Gygaxian Law of Dice? (I'm paraphrasing so if I get this slightly wrong, I apologise; "*A good DM only rolls dice for tthe noise they make*" It's a rule I've lived by for over forty years, But I know it a serious point of contention with newer players.
So glad you got to play recently! That is awesome! I've not yet become accustomed to playing online. When I DM, I stand the entire time, and I'm also moving around and interacting with specific players like going right up to them to engage with them as an NPC, or, for example, using rock-paper-scissors to resolve a chase sequence. Stuff like that doesn't translate well to an online game, sadly. So, for dice, I know a lot of newer gamers don't like the idea of it, especially more narrative/story-based DMs and groups who put the needs of the story ahead of the dice. And that's a fine way to play if that's the style of game they enjoy. I used to play that way even as recently at 5-6 years ago. I do get your point that if the players are being clever, it sucks when the dice let them down. In cases like that, I would probably adjudicate it as whether there was a really bad consequence for failure. If not, and they are competent, then no dice roll. If they planned well and "did everything right" but there was still a potentially bad consequence if they failed, then I'd probably have them roll, but then "fail forward." They took so long that a group of monsters/whatever arrived. They were spotted by someone who now has that information and can use it against them. They saved the day but the BBEG escaped to try to get revenge. They were able to crack the code on the secret document so they know the location of the treasure, but one of their hirelings plans to betray them and keep it for himself. Etc. But, overall, I look at refereeing a game as: 1) I design the conflict 2) The players tell me how their character intend to interact/engage with that conflict 3) The dice determine the outcome. Everybody has a bad day once in a while. We can't always win. Picard gets captured by the Borg. Boromir succumbs to the power of the Ring. Ned Stark is executed. Without loss and failure, the successes seem hollow. Similarly, even an average person can have a great and lucky day once in a while! Three completely inexperienced and frightened children save Captain Picard during a disaster on the Enterprise. Samwise Gamgee, a simple gardener, defeats Shelob. Lyanna Mormont, a 10 year-old girl, gets a lucky hit against an undead ice giant. Using the (as James Maliszewski, from Grognardia) calls it, "the oracular power of the dice" has freed me up to become so much more creative and interpret the results of the dice. I even bring my players into it. "Oh, no! A natural one! Critical failure! Tell me what happens."
All insight aside, I'm jealous of the childhood your giving your kid, and her friends. Looks forward to all the content to come, and the thoughts it will provoke.
Thank you very much! I love being able to do this for her as time we can share together as she gets older and we have fewer and fewer things in common. Thank you for your support!
I love the early Conan story where he finds an evil sorcerer and throws a chair at him. "Arcane horror! Take Ikea with an order of Cimmerian Meatballs and lingonberry sauce."
Great, well-researched and very clearly presented explanation of the origins of the DnD spell system, well-seated in the context of the early development of the game's mechanics and principles. Thanks! I really appreciated the linkage to resource management being made explicit, resource management being a central element of the foriginal game (arising naturally from its wargaming roots). Its goal-driven, rules-based resource management that makes an RPG a game, after all, and not just a free-form improv. PS - Better and more imaginative resource management is the history of human evolution and civilization! (The rules are called "nature"!) Player: I rub two dry sticks together as fast as I can. Does anything happen? DM: Your hands blister. A strange smelling mist arises from the sticks, making your eyes water. Player: What if I add some dry grass to filter the strange mist? DM: Suddenly a hot flickering light appears and begins to slowly consume the sticks! Player: Cool! I'll call it fire and use it to light my cave, warm myself in cold weather and cook my food to extract more nutrients. DM: Add it to your character abilities. Gain +2 to survival and reproduction.
I kind of like the image of a library-as-magical-armoury and a spellcaster considering an upcoming sortie and selecting an 'equipment loadout' for the day, just as limited to how much they can 'carry' as other adventurers, though it obviously fits better into 'heist' or 'resource management' -style games like early D&D which aren't so popular these days in favour of games more focused on the quality of the storytelling, particularly in the fantasy genre. I think people just have less time to devote to their hobbies, a similar effect is seen with computer games. Being able to pick up and put down the game quickly without losing your place is increasingly prioritized, and while a good thing in itself, it makes certain styles of game harder to pull off. As computer assistance for tabletop RPGs becomes more ubiquitous, I wonder if more bookkeeping-heavy games with in-depth resource management will come into fashion again?
That's a really interesting question you ask at the end. I'd not thought of that before, but it's an intriguing idea. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I like to use the in-world-explanation that the knowledge of a spell is not magically erased when you cast it, but rather that the majority of the casting is done as you prepare and you only _complete_ the spell when you finally cast it. The amount of spells you can hold prepared is of course still limited by your level. I was fortunately spared this confusion of the different meanings of "level" by starting with the German translation, where Spell levels are referred to as "spell grades".
Your explanation of why spells are used up when cast is the system they used for third edition, so congrats, you think like a game dev! (And a good one in my opinion.)
Hello Martin, I'm happy to have discovered your channel. I'm 3/4 through this video and it is not only the best you've made, but one of the best anyone has made about D&D. Like the few who are able to present their topics in most objective way possible, this takes the prize. Your comments are based on texts as evidence and are therefor valuable. You are the first that has presented the essay from strategic review that I have seen. Others have, in hindsight, clearly read it, but you've presented it and its ideas as NOT being your own. Too many RUclipsrs as well as journalists at large, conveniently present ideas in such a way that they imply they've garnered them through their own experience - that they have all this empirical knowledge when they in fact and deed do not. A few RUclipsrs have inspired me to start my own channel and I'm almost ready to do so. I have a specific idea and focus for mine, but rest assured yours will be included as an influence. The lego analogy is BRILLIANT. I was also a big space lego fan concurrent with my discovery of AD&D in 1979. I was exclusively space lego and scoffed at the primary colored "bricks" that were "boring" for me at the time. That said, your comparison is still right on target. I also got around to reading Vance this past year and was blown away. I always scoffed at Gary's dismissal of JRRT, but now I understand exactly what he meant - the strategic review article rests the case. Keep these level-headed videos coming. I hope to join you soon in such endeavors.
Yeah, you get it. You even brought out the Legos. It's a balancing act having enough resource management to raise the stakes without getting bogged down in excessive bookkeeping. Sounds like you found the sweet spot. Bonus comment: Monkey Shoulder is good Scotch. 🥃 Cheers!
Thank you so much! I glad you liked the Lego analogy. I thought it made sense from that standpoint. And yes, Monkey Shoulder is delicious! It's my main go-to for cocktails that call for blended Scotch. You can tell I've used it a lot because that bottle is almost empty!
I remember, way back in B/X in 80 or 81, finding the magic system odd and the fire-and-forget spells peculiar, but I hadn't read Dying Earth at that time (had never come across it in the bookstore). Forty years later, I prefer uncertain magic that requires RISK management (as in Warhammer, DCC and Black Sword Hack). The idea that swinging a sword can go wrong (thus the d20 roll) but tampering with the laws of the universe always works exactly as described (D&D magic) seems nonsensical. Plus, its fun when a spell goes awry and the Mage finds himself rained upon by offal and pigeon dung. :)
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it. While I have come around to appreciating Vancian magic, I do like the idea of rolling to cast. I have a spell misfire table for both clerics and magic-users in the B/X game I run for my daughter and her friends, and under certain circumstances, I do make them roll to cast. They get a kick out of rolling on the table to see what happens if they fail their casting roll!
I love how people are discussing game systems and history. It feels like a fun continuation of the Enlightenment! We are very much the product of our times, questioning the origins, reasoning, and functionality of game rules and practices. And now the conversation is evolving into how we can develop better experiences for everyone, and how to get these games more easily into each other's hands.
Are those reprints!? If not what an excellent collection! Thanks for sharing and explaining the origins of this stuff. I struggle implementing this resource management in my games. My players don't seem to engage on that level. Perhaps I need to craft my dungeons and encounters to allow and encourage that.
I started playing AD&D ("1stEd") in 1980 and I always had difficulty getting my head around the magic/spell system. This video has finally explained what the authors seemed to have in mind. Thankyou for making magic more appealing
There was a book I read years ago that I can't remember the name of, but it used the "you forget how to cast spells after you use them" idea. The way it was described in the book was the mage sitting and focusing their thoughts and will on forming mana into a particular shape and form, which took a lot of concentration. Not something you could do in combat. Hence the whole spending a while to "memorize spells" thing. And each spell was described as "lurking in the back of his mind, struggling to be set free". So when he'd cast spells, all that energy would go ripping out into the effect he created (lightning bolt was one of his favorites), and once he'd spent all his prepared spells, he was left with only being able to do extremely minor tinkerings with ambient mana (cantrips). Since the spells "wanted" to be used, they were on an almost hair-trigger. At one point he accidentally blew up a bunch of magic items in a crate because he was nearly unconscious and his friend tried to shake him awake, which he reacted to instinctively and cast a lightning bolt. It was pretty well described, I thought.
Sounds fun, and very similar to Jack Vance's stuff. Thanks for sharing that with me. If you remember the title at any point, make sure to leave another comment to let me know! And, thank you for watching and commenting.
@@daddyrolleda1 After poking through my bookshelf I found the book in question. It's by Joel Rosenberg, part of the "Guardians of the Flame" series. It's the standard "modern people get trapped in a fantasy world" type setup, though it has some interesting takes on it. Like the girl who plays the cleric can't actually get herself to believe in the god her cleric followed, so she can't access her powers.
I think it really depends on the style of game, the kind of players you have, and ultimately what you enjoy most out of the game. I just like to point out to folks that it doesn't *have* to be boring if you don't make it boring. It's easy to make it exciting!
I’ve been making my own nocino for almost a decade! I used to give it away at Xmas, but I got the feeling it became as unwanted as fruitcake, unfortunately. Now I only make it every other year. It’s such a good replacement for armoros in traditional cocktails. I really enjoy your channel.
The year I made this Nocino for my family, I also made Finocchiocello (basically Limoncello, but replacing lemons with fennel) and Basilcello (same, but with Basil). My dad really liked them, but I don't think they were as much of a hit with the rest of the family and I haven't done so since. I have made homemade aged eggnog that I've given out, and cranberry bitters one year. I also took my dad to an Amaro making class, which was a ton of fun. Thank you for commenting on that part of the video specifically - I'm never sure if people watch to the end. And I'm so glad you enjoy the channel! Thank you very much for watching and commenting.
Empire of the Petal Throne - which one edition was printed by TSR, calls spell levels Spell Circles - which I like a lot. EPT also explains magic as a psychic/Ritualistic system, so spells can be psychic or ritual.
Yes, indeed! Thanks for the comments on this. I have a whole video on Empire of the Petal Throne if you're interested: ruclips.net/video/TePumzEe5CM/видео.html
At a small gaming convention I once participated in a "scored" D&D event - it was quite fun though if my memory serves the referees weren't all on the same page with scoring and the variance was quite high. It's not the RPG I'd want to engage in on a continuing basis but for an event or convention it is a very interesting idea!
Thank you for watching and commenting! I've not had a chance to play in a scored game, but I think it could be interesting! But yes, not my cup of team for an ongoing campaign.
I love resource management, I think it has led to some of the most interesting games at my table, basically because of the reasons you described. But in the editions of D&D past 3rd (I include Pathfinder in this as its the only edition I actively play), likely as an emergent property of how the focus of the game has shifted, a lot of people have grown dissatisfied (including myself) with the consequences of a magic system which relies on resource management. This is for three major reasons I can think of. The first, as you already said, is the idea of the video game blaster caster that we get in media nowadays. I started playing the game before this was really a thing, so I'm not that bothered by it, but for many new players, they expect to have this kind of playstyle supported. I'm not really concerned here either way, because I think the next two reasons are more important, but I figured I would point out this is a lot of people's hangups with a Vancian magic system. The second is purely mechanical, and thats how the implementation of resource management interacts with the rest if the game system. Since a magic user gets all their spells back at the beginning of the day, the resource management aspect is completely thrown out of balance based on how often the party is allowed to rest up and recover. Now, you can make the argument that this is true for all aspects of resource management; an adventure in a city will provide much easier access to resources than one in the middle of the wilderness. But, there is the flip side when it comes to spells specifically, where being able to use all your spells at once without consequence will trivialize basically any challenge past a certain level. I find myself constantly in the situation where my players are trying to find every opportunity to rest after using more than half their spell slots, while I try to find contrived situations where they aren't able to safely. This is not a conscious effort on my players part either; the system innately rewards you for taking every opportunity to rest if the stakes allow for it. While this is generally solved by putting timed stakes on the line, it does limit a lot of the stories I can tell in the name if game balance. And I think the final and most important thing to consider is simply that Vancian magic is really hard to use effectively for new players. It takes a lot of game knowledge to know what spells to prepare ahead of time and when to cast them, and thats something new players just don't know. Since D&D is a tactical game at it's core, player experience is always going to be a significant advantage. But when a character's entire ability to succeed comes from their spellcasting, not having the game knowledge necessary to perform at par with others is going to directly affect how accessible the game feels to play and how much fun a player is going to have. It feels like gatekeeping to those players who want to play a magic caster, and I have a suspicion it was probably designed for that to be the case. And I don't think it needs to be. I brought up Pathfinder before because they did a really interesting thing in 2nd edition. For those that don't know, they effectively removed HP as a resource a party needs to manage; it is assumed the party enters every encounter at full HP. Obviously a lot of people were upset at first, but I've found this has had nothing but positive effects for my game. Now, I have direct control over how challenging a combat encounter is going to be based on the difficulty of the creatures, not by how far down the dungeon it is and how much HP I expect the party to have. Basically every encounter is a challenge in some way now, and I think that is way more fun than having a lot of trivial encounters so long as the party is able to maintain their HP due to resource management or, as it more often comes down to, the luck of die rolls that night. Without HP management, player choice and creativity plays a much bigger factor in how hard or easy an encounter is, since before it was so often overshadowed by HP totals going into it. And I still get to have resource management in game. Its just now instead of expending HP, you expend the time needed to heal that HP. What does this have to do with spells? Well, nothing really, PF2 still has a Vancian system for prepared casters (and a strict one where you have to prepare multiples of the same spell unlike 5e). But I do think that having to manage a powerful resource isn't necessary to have the same level of fun and feeling of reward. I certainly think there should be a way to maintain the fun of resource management without it hindering the game in other ways. But, I haven't found it yet, so for the mean time I'll stick to my Vancian spells
Great summary! I always wondered about the origins of magic in D&D, and loved the named spells. Have you ever played a campaign around meeting or looking for wizards that named the spells? Or having a PC invent a new spell that gets added to the world? My friends and I started playing with 2E Advanced D&D (apparently the revised version), and we'd rotate through DM/player roles. We did half-baked attempts at resource management, such as making sure we had a torch and rations but didn't keep track of how much (basically just "who was holding the food again?"). We'd need a place to stash our loot because we did keep track of weight, and gold was heavy. For magic, the limited use worked out well since our time tracking was terrible. We'd basically have a couple encounters and then forget what time it was, and let that time be when characters healed and spells recovered. This made the wizard's magic useful only in specific circumstances, and the rest of the time he was using a crossbow or sling. Even when we moved to the 3.5 edition we kept this same approach, since it was mainly me doing the DM stuff and I preferred to keep things vague. We did add a house rule for more spells though: if the wizard (we only ever had 1 in the party at a time) had his spell book handy then he could cast the spell by referring to it right then, but it took 5 to 10 times longer. This made it possible to keep magic missling in combat, provided the wizard was protected for several rounds. And it meant that utility spells could be used whenever (without the need to prepare it ahead of time), provided it was in the spell book. To balance this, we kept track of how many pages were used in the book (to limit spells available), the wizard needed to find spells (not simply gain them with a level up), and the books were heavy so typically a wizard only had one at a time. Looking for new spells was something the wizard wanted to do as part of looking for more loot. It worked out well enough, but the PC for our wizard was rarely concerned with too much power. We were more interested in finding magic items that anyone could use, or building a guild hall / stronghold and running odd jobs out of it.
A good video and a good introduction for me to your series. I have a few quibbles but they are minor. Your enthusiasm and love of the game is great! I applaud that and thank you for it!
Good to hear - thank you! A lot of this stuff is presented through my lens of how I've interpreted information I've read (interviews, forum comments, etc.) so there are bound to be things that folks don't agree with. A few times I've misread something or left something out, but I do my best to try to cover all possible angles. Thank you for your comments, and for watching. I really appreciate it!
Thought I read somewhere Gary went with Vancian magic also because it wasn't connected with the real world occult. I've been a Leiber fan for decades but I've recently gotten into Vance's Dying Earth, which is reall great stuff! It's fun to spot things that had an obvious influence on D&D. I'm always fascinated by the game Arneson ran. The "First Fantasy Campaign" looks like a great resource for that! Great video!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the video, and I thank you for watching and commenting! Leiber and Vance are both great, as are most (all?) of the authors in Appendix N. I've been doing a series of posts on Instagram and Twitter where I provide a list of ~30 descriptive words common to each of the Appendix N authors to help DMs with their descriptions when they're on the spot, so they don't fall into a rut of everything being "huge" or "dark" or "cold." They're probably easier to find on Instagram, if you're interested. First Fantasy Campaign is a fun artifact and a great peek into the game Arneson ran, but it is (to me) very unorganized, and with the limitations from 1970's typewriter layout, it's difficult to find things. Arneson also has a "unique" writing style that is very conversational and doesn't always involve the use of full sentences or of properly spelled words or correct grammar. It is really more intended as a look at "here's a look at my Blackmoor world" but written from someone who forgets the majority of his audience does not have the context or background he has in the world, so he forgets to explain things and often makes leaps of topics with no proper segue. It's not written as a guide to help someone understand and run a game in Blackmoor (at least, to me). As a result, it can be quite difficult to understand what he is saying. Thanks again!
One passage in _The Dying Earth_ (on screen at 39:48) suggests, to me at least, the possibility that the spells in that setting aren't merely abstract formulae but autonomous beings: 'He stared down at the characters and they burned with an urgent power, pressing off the page as if frantic to leave the dark solitude of the book. Turjan closed the book, forcing the spell back into oblivion.' This interpretation isn't strongly supported anywhere in the text, but it isn't outright ruled out, either, in my opinion. If we adopt this framework, it gives us a good explanation for why spells are "fire and forget": the entity responsible for causing the spell effect has done its job and is now released from the magician's control. Before casting the same spell again, the magician will have to force the entity back into his brain.
I love this idea of spells being almost living entities, crammed into the magic user's brain and straining to get out. After reading this comments section I would reall like to add a cast roll to magic use, allowing for more or less successful casting of the spell, it seems reasonable that if a fighter can fail to hit an orc with a sword then a magic user shouldn't be able to wrangle the fickle forces of magic with a 100% success rate. However I'm acutly aware that I don't want to unbalance the game, if a 1st lvl mu only has 1 spell and I'm going to make them roll to see if they even manage to do that, that's perhaps a little harsh, but I'm also wary about giving them more spells as that could be bad in the opposite direction. The idea that a spell could roll a critical at either end is pretty exciting though, and I also love the idea of these memeorised spells might sometimes get cast inadvertently, sometimes for the good (party gets surprised by a Vampire but the magic user hair triggers a polymorph and turns it into a frog!) or bad, (surprised by a bunch of ghouls the mu webs the whole party in place!).
I really appreciate you saying that. Thank you, and also thanks for watching and commenting. I hope you stick around to find other videos you enjoy. Cheers!
I usually played fighters, clerics, or elves but I recently played an OD&D campaign where we had a 1st level magic user and she had some trepidation about having only one spell, but that spell was Charm Person. What comes across is that the party was more strategic and careful on approaching the Caves of Chaos. When Charm Person was used in a cultist, it was momentous. What gets missed is that original spells at 1st level are *really powerful*.
With regards to the scoring thing you mentioned, there's still some people that do similar things. For example, some, if not all, of the MCDM pre release packets for the Flee Mortals book had some scenarios with scoring systems and leaderboards for who was able to do the best.
I highly recommend supplies system from Five Torches Deep You keep track of supplies If you eat -1 supply Light a torch -1 supply cast spell -1 supply Makes it easier to keep track of supplies but still makes supplies very important
Thanks for that suggestion - I've heard a lot of great things about 5 Torches Deep and that description makes me want to check it out even more. And, thank you for watching and commenting!
For better or worse it makes supplies a lot more streamlined. Some players I have get more confused when "1 supply" just sits in a vague hammerspace and could be anything.
I do not, but I can certainly add it to the list of potential video ideas, and also I'll chat about it in my "Campaign Prep" videos playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLX6jue56rzl2-VzZH19Ke2NU4r0IaJ7be
Eureka man. Very insightful. Scarcity, psychology, engagement, and balancing. Studying hystory and the reason for certain aspects of the game really help. Thanks for the leson! I will now have to try and act this out in my games.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I'm approaching magic like this in the Moldvay Basic game I run for my daughter and her friends, and it's working great! In almost three years of playing, I think the Elf players (there were 3 of them, but 1 moved away) have cast their spells fewer than 10 times!
@@daddyrolleda1 yea, I plan on trying something similar to see how it affects player engagement and lore. The idea of making magic more tird to resources is nice, and is kinda like one of those things where intuitively most people kind of know about this stuff but putting it in words and historic context allows us to really understand why magic doesn't feel special, or feel like something other than just a damage roll. We already do stuff like this when managing power of magic items, especially like a legendary sword of brimstone or what ever, which has lore, resources, scarcity, etc. So why I never really connected the dots can only really be explained by my oversights with preconceived ideas and stereotypes: the gamer constantly spamming abilities infinitely. Anyways, my ranty mess of a reply probably didn't make sense completely but the different ideas and perspectives really make a difference to how we play, and I am glad that I found this channel. Your lessons and collection is impressive. Sadly my dads old 1e d&d collection was dwindled due to an unfortunate roommate selling it without his permission
Thank you so much for this reply. I'm glad that my presentation and ideas are useful to you! I'm so sorry to hear about your dad's D&D collection. That's awful! I would be devastated.
I'm not entirely sure why, but I never questioned the Vancian style of magic in D&D when I first learned about it. Somehow, it felt just fine to me. Go figure. I hadn't read Dying Earth yet, at that point. lol
I never questioned it, and I hadn't read Dying Earth (nor even heard of it!) when I first started, but I began to grow slightly disenchanted with it, especially in the face of DMs who really didn't know what they were doing. But also in reading the rules, I decided to mainly play fighter-type characters who weren't as limited (at least, it seemed that way to me at the time)! I always appreciate you watching and commenting on my videos! And I see you got a "Top Commenter" badge! Well deserved - Cheers! And thank you!
Great Video - I like the special content at the end of the video (location, weather, and drink)... I love music, don't drink (spiritual reasons not addiction issues), and have played D&D/AD&D back in the day much like yourself. With rare exception, I find, other than myself, few people who have so many of the old fold-over staple books (e.g., Blackmoor, Gods, Demi-Gods, & Heros... my jewel is Judge's Guild City of the World Emperor (IMHO). I really enjoy your videos - keep up the good work.
I really appreciate this! Thank you so much! And I'm glad you enjoy the bonus content even though you don't consume alcohol. I did do one non-alcoholic drink once (a cold brew coffee, old fashioned-style) but I am cognizant that there are viewers who don't imbibe. I will endeavor to make that section a little more inclusive to non-alcoholic drinkers. Thank you so much for watching and commenting, and I'm very happy you are enjoying the channel.
It depends on the game I’m running, and there are points where we forget to account for food and ammunition but those parts of the game are fun. Seeing people being clever with the spells they choose to bring in and items they buy and find is always fun to see.
Oh, for sure it depends on the type of game and the group of players as to whether or not they think it's fun, but I agree with you that watching players be clever with their spell choice is a fun activity to observe!
I find it ironic that while D&D was a resource management game that TSR was blowing through its resources. Like dredging up a sunken ship. I love your content. I’ve been playing for 40 years and I think it’s fantastic that someone is looking at the roots of why these game mechanics exist(ed).
36:00 I usually run my games in such a way that players need to visit a "trainer" NPC to level up. It never sat right with me that sometimes you just... become stronger. You have to find someone who already knows this stuff, or dedicate a lot of downtime to figuring it out yourself. Players who learn new spells (Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards) will need to pick from what their trainer knows, which can be very limiting for sorcerers and bards in particular. It dynamically gives players the quest of "find the trainer who knows the spell I want", or "Find some hidden lore which I can use to learn the spell I want", without me having to think ahead about what spells they might want. It does disappoint players, not being able to always get fireball at 5th level, but I think it's a very easy way to get players used to setting their own quests.
I've played in several people's campaigns. Each used a different magic system. In one you could cast any spell on the list for your level. In another you could cast any spell you knew from your list of known spells. In another we used mana points to cast any spells you knew. So you could cast a few higher level spells or several low level spells or mix it up. I actually have the mana formula written in my players handbook with resting time, recovery, etc. I really do prefer that you have a list of spells you know and have to seek out new spells. Keeps mages from becoming too powerful and makes them spend money for research on new spells or information on where they might find them. Spell books are the Achilles Heel for mages. Steal or destroy their spell book(s) and they become very limited in power. Sort of the same way a cleric must keep his faith or face the wrath of their god and be limited to only low level spells.
This all sounds really fun! I like the idea of using different magic systems depending on the group, the campaign, etc. It changes the feel of the game, for sure. Your point about clerics and their spellcasting is a really good one. So many players forget that a cleric is a servant of a deity and the deity isn't at their beck-and-call to answer their requests for spells. If they don't toe the line, they might not get any! I do think clerics can be one of the most difficult classes to play and many players end up looking at them from a mechanical standpoint rather than from a role-playing standpoint.
May I ask what that formula for the mana is? I've been trying to come up with a mana system for my players who, and while I think mine will work somewhat well (I haven't tested it yet, but plan to implement it into my next campaign and tweak it as we go), but I've been looking for others to compare.
@@jarroddt Keep in mind that this is not mine & that I just have a couple of notes written in my PHB since we all used it. Mana Energy: Int X Lvl then divide by 4 if Int is 8 or less, by 3 if 9-12, by 2 if 13 or greater. I also saw a notation that 6th to 9th Lvl spells cost double mana points. I'm afraid that's all I have for you. I don't usually play mages so this was written for the other players that did play mages.
It's interesting that Gygax references Michael Moorcock's Stormbringer in all caps but not surprising. I always thought that they way warlocks got their power was especially reminiscent of the Elric Saga (basically all the magic comes from having pacts with otherworldly beings and then using mostly vocal incantation/chants that are supposed to reach that being in whatever world it lay). That form of magic could also fail based on the skill of the MU based on their own inability to perform the incantation of the otherworldly being ability or desire to heed the call. Another similarity is the exhaustion caused by these intense chants.
I've really only played old school Vampire the Masquerade and 5e D&D. I'm starting to look into other stuff now. Mostly my game group is me, my wife, and our kids plus every now and then a neighbor (not the same one each time). We tend to have particular resources the group focuses on and others the group ignores. When our characters are in scenarios where food & water are readily available, we don't bother tracking those. When I specifically did a campaign where these were scarce, we did. My wife ran a campaign based on one of her favorite fantasy stories where I ended up playing a prince (because none of the kids wanted to) and the other characters where part of the prince's retinue. So, we played it that the prince could draw on the royal treasury. As long as it was not too extravagant, money was not as much an issue in that campaign.
In a system I wrote, I had the combat be a sort of hybrid between a regular ttrpg and a card game, where everything other than basic attacks are represented with cards and need to get drawn and cost extra resources. Basically the equivalent of a spellcaster would be someone who's character has a deck full of strong cards but not much action gain (cards can take more than 1 action to use, basic attacks only need 1 usually) or card draw. While a more "warrioresque" character could be more reliant on basic attacks or have a more well balanced deck that is consistently useful instead of having massive peaks and valleys. Alternatively, since it's for a lovecraftian/sci-fi/cyberpunk world, guns exist, and bullets are tracked because they're really expensive, but that's the tradeoff for being able to basically double dip with weapon upgrades on both the gun and the ammo, and also because ranged attacks come before all melee attacks in the turn order. So resource management of money turns into a short term vs long term question as well, since money can buy stats or other big upgrades like getting a car, but just loading up on a bunch of various grenades can trivialize fights vs basically anything short of corporate supersoldiers or being ambushed by a group massively outnumbering you.
I am new to your channel, and found it inspiring and very interesting, as an older player, I began with D&D and the first round of rpg game, after moving to AD&D my players and I began altering the magic system and the combat mechanics till the point I developed a my own system. I have found your insightful talks about the development and history of the D&D rules and mechanic reinvigorating me to re experience my old rpg beginnings, thanks for that!
legos and resource management is an excellent comparison. well done. I hope your child is having as much fun exploring D&D as mine is. He's 15 and playing 5E and from the sounds of it they are having a ball. lol. I try and stay out of it and just let them do their thing without bringing my grognard self into it. Ha!
Thank you so much! That Lego comparison came to me one morning while I was going through the motions getting ready for the day and thinking about my next video. I thought it was as fun analogy and one I'd not seen other people make. My daughter just turned 14 but she's been playing since she was around 10/11. It's mostly an excuse for her to hang out with friends she doesn't see at school (because they all went to different elementary schools and live in different districts), but I am totally fine with that. Anything I can do to continue to connect with her as she gets older is totally great with me! Congrats on your child playing D&D! I hope they stick with it! And thank you very much for watching and commenting.
Another great video, thanks so much. I think it's super awesome the idea of having special, rare components that need to be found in remote areas and ancient tomes lost in forgotten dungeons, that function as catalysts for adventure and part of the reason why the PCs go on adventures. You see modern games replicating or even fostering this kind of gameplay. I can think of Knave and Into the Odd (and others based on them like Cairn and Mausritter) as examples, which rely heavily on inventory (and therefore resource) management to guide the gameplay into that exploration mode, exposing the characters to risk and hard choices to then drive drama and interesting stories. D&D is interesting with its more grandiose ambitions for later game modes, like domain level gameplay, rules for aerial and maritime exploration, etc., so it's different from those more modern games that seem to have systems & rules for a narrower spectrum of gameplay. Interesting to see as more iterations on these new games come out if they expand to cover these modes of play as well...
Thank you so much for the compliment, and for this really great comment! It's also nice to chat with someone who is familiar with so-called "OSR" (or OSR-inspired) games like Knave and Into the Odd. I have been very intrigued by the latter but haven't picked it up yet, but I did contribute to the recent Knave 2nd Edition Kickstarter and am looking forward to getting the game in the mail soon(ish)! Thanks again!
Yeah I remember going over and over the 1st ed AD&D rules for things like building a castle and running your own little territory. And then if that got boring there were things like Spelljammer for exploring space, and if that got boring there were several planes where reality was completely different that you could travel to. The sky wasn't even a limit. But those details at the start - finding the spells, getting the material components, surviving those encounters when every single one was potentially deadly at low levels, and you had to use your wits and creativity just to survive. That made it exciting and feel 'epic' right from the beginning. If you had a good GM.
@@rascta I joined the hobby later, with 3.5, so didn't have the pleasure to ponder over Gygaxian prose describing domain level play and try to understand it. But I can imagine. With that said, I'm happy to be living this renaissance that can distill, or at least clean up some of these systems. And often even expand them! Maybe one day it will all be actually relevant to me at the table... But the point about having to quest for magic (including just for the mcguffin), in particular for early character levels, has the potential and likely is relevant from the start of a campaign, or even for one-shot adventures like when to introduce new players or to teach new games/rulesets.
Thank you so much! I thought of that analogy one morning while on my walk and didn't recall if anyone had made that analogy before. But, I do hear a lot people saying that resource management isn't fun for kids, and I think it's only not fun if it's presented as not being fun. It's the same as new foods: if you say, "You're probably not going to like this," then chances are, they won't!
Resource management is so often presented as a penalty instead of as a fun part of the game. "Oops... you're out of arrows. Haha!" and no one finds that to be fun. But planning a trip through the desert can be one of the most amazing sessions if done properly.@@daddyrolleda1
Love your point of view here! Have been thinking about how to make spells something that needs to be found. Do you also do roleplaying for leveling up? Would love a whole video about your spells-as-worldbuilding approach.
Ooh, "spells as worldbuilding" could perhaps be a fun topic. I will add it to the list! I used to dig a little more into roleplaying for leveling up, but these days I'm a little looser about it. In my daughter's game, each of the PCs has a "superior" (the two elves are being trained by a Witch at the Keep on the Borderlands to learn how to cast magic; the cleric has a superior in his church; and the Thief has high-level contacts in the Thieves' Guild). So, narratively, I explain that's how they learn their skills when they advance in level (which is not frequent... we've been playing for about four years [but only 27 sessions over that time period] and the two Elf PCs are only 2nd level!). For the Elves specifically, they receive their spells from the Witch, so I control which spells they have access to. It's all about what "The Witch" (so... me) wants to give them. I've taken their input before but right now their spells are really not all that powerful - one Elf knows Read Magic and Ventriloquism, and one knows Hold Portal and Charm Person (probably the most powerful, but she's afraid to cast it because she knows that the subject of the spell, once it wears off, will be aware that they were ensorcelled). Thanks for watching and commenting!
When I run my homebrews my spells either require mana points or lots of time and components, I agree that resources are important in trpgs. Thanks for the great video
I prefer he Palladium magic system, it is a spell point system and has 15 +1 levels of spells and if you know the spell(no matter what level), and have the points, then you can cast it! Spells cast from 1 to 5000 points!
My only experience with the Palladium system is via the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness game, but as far as I know, it uses the same base mechanics. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Interesting point about younger players taking to resource management, it’s a mechanic that’s been baked into so many video/app games. The resource management stuff older players may find overly detailed and tedious, kids that grew up on Minecraft and stardew valley accept as part of gameplay.
You're the second person to mention Minecraft in this context, and I really like that analogy. I've never played it (I don't really play video games) but based on what my daughter explained to me after this came up, it makes sense. Thanks!
I really liked the search for a lost tome idea. I was thinking that the tome could include a few high powered spells that the players could scribe to their own tomes. Later you talked about naming a spell after a random wizard. and I thought like, well perhaps within this tome you could find the sorcerer who wrote the tome's twist on certain spells? which your players could scribe to get a light boost to their spell. basically like an upgrade, something small like a +1 damage or something.
I am a very big fantasy person, and I generally like when there's a lot of magic, and when it's not a scarce resource to be carefully managed. I personally think that "Magic is rare and you can only use a little bit of it" has been done to death over the years. I can definitely see the appeal of having very few, but powerful, spells and I understand why some people would prefer that, but for me I have reached a point where I really enjoy Magic being a tool - a fantastical and visually impactful tool, but one nonetheless - that is on a semi-equal footing to Martials. Not because Magic has been reduced in power, but because if you're a lvl 13 Fighter who can outwrestle a young dragon and kill it single handedly, then you're quite a few steps above the average person, and stand equal to the person flinging fireballs around. This is, mostly, my thoughts when it comes to games. I like playing Mages of all kinds, because it allows me a lot of freedom in narrating for my character, and giving visuals for what I do. I don't just "cast Magic Missile", I "move my sword in an arc above my head, leaving behind a series of small silvery orbs. I then point at the gnoll and mutter 'en garde', before the orbs shoot forward towards the target." I am less good at finding ways of making martial attacks visually interesting. That said, when it comes to stories I read, my taste in magic systems is a bit different. Here, I really enjoy it when they're relatively simple. You can't do a lot of fantastical light shows that blow up buildings, but you can do maybe 3-5 different things, that ideally would rely on a resource of some kind. So you could push & pull iron, or apply gravitational force to yourself in different directions than down, transmute material, or make things come alive to perform tasks for you. Relatively simple things, with clear rules and limited in scope, but with incredible versatility if you are clever about it. If you hadn't already guessed, I am a huge fan of Brandon Sanderson and how he does magic. I think it's a wonderfully interesting way of doing it in stories, but in games, I am quite fond of D&D 5e, because it lets me use it as a tool that I can use more than twice per day, and lets me live out all those childhood fantasies I have of being a true magician.
I genuinely disagree with you on a very fundamental level about how magic should work but your presentation was amazing and I will be subscribing and looking at more of your content, Daddy. ... saying it out loud, I can see where that went wrong.
I am very happy for people to disagree as long as they are cool about it, like you are! Thank you so much for subscribing - I really appreciate your support. And yes... back when I started my blog (Daddy Rolled a 1), I hadn't considered the impact of folks chatting with me on social media and what they would call me. On Twitter, folks usually refer to me as "Daddy-O" or some just call me DRA1. "Martin" also works!
Outside of the actual role-playing, resource management is THE core of fun & interesting campaign sessions. However, I do feel like magic-users need more spells so they can "contribute" more. By the way...your videos can NEVER be too long. I hate that I don't have a new one to watch every night before work.
Here is one of the ways that magic users can be more useful and contribute more. Finding spell books. Think about it. Every mage needs one. Whether it be their full spell book or a traveling spell book with just a few spells in it. So any time you slay a rival mage or raid their lair, look for those books. You can use them to copy into your spell book or you can use those spell books like scrolls.
This is such a wonderful compliment. I really appreciate it! Thank you! I really agree that resource management can be a fun and interesting (and creative!) part of a campaign, but I chat with so many gamers who disagree (both old-timers and new gamers). I think part of the (forgive the pun) "charm" of magic-users is them, at early levels, only having that one spell per day and having to figure out "when do I cast it? Is this situation the right time, or will things get worse today?" And then after that, what can they do to contribute to the party? Sure, they have a dagger, but are there any other clever things they can do to add to the adventuring party? That's a great opportunity to someone who loves to roleplay and to think out of the box!
@@CaptCook999 I *love* the "adventure to find lost tomes of magic." Interestingly, in B/X D&D, per the rules as written, unless you have the spell "read magic," you can't read someone else's spellbook, and even if you do have it, you can't use it to copy those spells into your spellbook unless you have "slots" available (e.g., you've advanced in level but haven't learned a new spell yet). It's very different from AD&D rules for using spellbooks! But I"m considering being a little more lenient in my game. It hasn't really come up yet, because the only two magic-using PCs in my game are both elves, and their only 2nd level, so they each only know 2 first-level spells. Only one of them knows "read magic."
@@daddyrolleda1 yes, I understand about needing read magic. But you can know several spells if your intelligence is high. So all you need to do is get the ink and copy the spell or spells into your book. The cost of ink would be minimal for low level spells. And those 2 Elves could trade spells with each other. Then they would both have read magic. Original D&D didn't have too much information about it but it would be a standard to find spells and copy them into your own book. And if you already have that spell then you should be able to use it like a scroll. And once you use read magic on it you don't have to do it again to read the spell. Oh, and as far as mages being more useful. A gnarly carved staff could make people think that it is magical. So then a mage could use it as a bluff. "I'll blast you to bits with the power of my Staff of Stars". Then use a little shiny dust to add to the effect. And if they have Phantasmal Force they could make it look like meteors are flying from the staff. Now people will believe you are even more powerful than you are. Little tactics like that are what makes low level mages seem like Wizards of the Highest Order!
Interestingly, for whatever reason, B/X doesn't allow for increased knowledge of spells based on high INT. Only your class level determines how many spells you know, and therefore how many spells are in your spellbook. For example, my daughter's character (and her friend, also an Elf) is a 2nd level elf so they each know 2 first-level spells. Even if my daughter's character (who knows Read Magic) finds another first level spell (say, in someone else's spellbook), she can't copy it into her spellbook because she can only know (and "have") two first level spells. It also doesn't allow the copying of spells from scrolls, also due to the limit on how many spells can be in your spellbook. It's oddly much more restrictive than AD&D (I think to just make it easier - you only have to refer to one table to know how many spells you can have in your spellbook and how many you can learn/cast per day). The next time they'll be able to learn another 1st level spell is at 7th level. It would be interesting to have my daughter's character teach her friend's character "Read Magic." I hadn't thought of that! Great idea! Love the tricks and ideas for a mage being more useful! FANTASTIC! There was a really fun article in one of the issues of KNOCK! magazine called something like "What to do as a 1st level magic-user when you've cast your one spell." It was funny but also super creative and really made me think that the limitations are really more based on player creativity!
I really appreciate that! It's gotten a bit of "pushback" from folks who have made some decent arguments as to why it's not a perfect analogy. In hindsight I think I could've explained it better. That's sometimes the price I pay for talking off the cuff and not scripting my videos. I either forget stuff or don't always articulate my points as well as perhaps I could have, but I think the trade-off (from what I've been told) is that I sound more natural and conversational and many folks seem to like that. Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
One thing I really should have done with the last group I've played with was having physical props or cards for the resources to be managed. Easier on something like Roll20 (where you can just copy and paste), but still reasonable for tabletop (print 1- to 2-inch icons and paste them to card stock or poker chips). I had poker chips for HP, which very quickly inspired a Ralph Wiggum "I'm in danger" impression. But only the experienced player really understood "I have this proficiency but not the relevant item," and even they kind of ignored the other resources in their starting kit until one of the new players saw a burning barrel of oil and said "wait, lantern oil burns, right?"
When I first started playing D&D I was heavily into the resource management. I started with the standard character sheets but then added more and more details on loose leaf paper. I ended up have complete inventories of my characters' homes, what they would bring along on adventures, snd what they actually brought into the dungeon. Eventually I found that I could stresmline the game for the benefit of my morevcasual players. The first thing I did was eliminate the XP calculations. Instead, I just decided on how fast I eanted to characters to level, and awarded XP based on actions, like that Tournament example. Gold income, as well ss other resources were also eventually assumed. If one of my players wanted to build or construct something, I just told them approximately how much gold they jad saved up. If they wanted to produce some unexpected resource I just considered the odds of them having the foresight to bring it and had them roll for it. If they failed the role, they'd have to go back for it or send a henchman. I never liked the fire and forget system, it never made sense to me, but I couldn't think of anything better. I think I finally settled on a system where words have power, and discharged energy when spoken, but each spell casting was subtly different and it never worked twice. You had to spend the time preparing snd rehearsing the spell ahead of time, and if you tried to cast it again, it would fizzle. I also required my players to find their spells before they could cast them. Players could share spell books, but they started with common spells and had to seek out the rare ones.
NB: Martin, my understanding is that Vance encouraged Gygax to use any idea in his fiction. E.g. "ioun stones" appear in the Dying Earth novels (I have the same edition you show) and are EXACTLY as they appear there in D&D. The Prismatic Spray spell IS used in D&D. However, D&D's "Time Stop" spell is also in Vance but with a different name. On the other hand, JRRT's estate sent cease and desists to TSR regarding Hobbit, Ent, and Balrog. It seems to have miffed Gary and colored his opinion, understandably.
This was extremely insightful and gave me a whole new outlook on gaming, especially why some modern gaming feels like it's missing a dimension (resource management). Thank you for this analysis! I'm going to be doing a lot of thinkin' on this.
Great video... Recently, as in the past two years or so, I've found that something really appeals to me, at least conceptually, about Older Editions of D&D... Maybe as the time passes and I am seen as more and more of the Old Guard, as it were, compared to these newer generations of TTRPG players I have simply turned my eyes to the past and seen kindred spirits... Or maybe I would simply just like the games if I would give them a shot. But in lieu of this I instead substitute the experience with RUclips content like yours and Bandit's Keep. It is nice and there is something, I want to say nostalgic, about seeing how these books are laid out. It reminds me of when me and my brothers, having never heard of TTRPGs, tried to remake the Elder Scrolls games... But on paper. Yeah, good times. Sorry, it is late here and I ramble when I am tried. I don't think I ever got to the point: I liked the video, it provided me with new information and enlightening discussion of a topic that is very dear to me. If you've read this far, my bad.
My main experience with resource management style D&D games usually ends with the bare basics of : Food (Druids get stuck with Good Berry) Water (Druid.cleric get stuck with create/destroy water) Setup camp (wizard gets stuck with tiny hut till they upgrade it for mighty fortress) The DM is quite limited in to making things matter when a lot of spells simply snap their fingers and make it a nothing burger. Mind you its not impossible by a long shot. Though i'd like to hear your spin on these kind of issues that simply nullifies a great survival adventure by ending up limiting player spell slots. Where as spell resources i have a whole different issue as they are horrible unbalenced and atleast a quarter were simply put in as an after thought. Cleric spells suffer the most simply due to not the cost but the rarity of items. Ceremony which is a massively underated spell for RP for instance requires powdered silver. You can get silver easy but grinding it in to dust is something far more dificult to come by unless you have a Goliath barbarian hanging around. There are many more that have these issues in the cleric spell book where as druids and wizards have it far easy. If you want to implement resource requirements for spells as a DM you should be prepared with exotic items unknown to the region or end up ruining the game for a player.
These are all really good points. I do think it depends a bit on which edition you're playing. Resource management does tend to be easier to run in earlier editions of the game, partially because the rules are written to support (and even promote) that style of play. In 5th Edition, resource management is much less of a concern, partially because the edition was designed with the context that many players don't *like* resource management, so having spellcasters with unlimited cantrips and also with powerful 1st-level spells like Goodberry, as well as most character types having darkvision, do tend to make it more difficult to make resource management a key element. I do think it's interesting, however, if a game *wants* to focus on resource management but the players don't want to track rations, Goodberry then becomes a "spell tax" on a Druid; they are expected to cast it every day to provide food for the party. So then in that way, you're back to spell preparation as an element of resource management: is it worth it for the Druid to spend an entire spell slot each day for food, when the party could just buy supplies? I think my approach would be to discuss with the players ahead of time and let them know the kind of game you'd like to run, and get their input to make sure they're on board. If resource management is *not* something they think would be fun to deal with, then at that point I think I would just hand-wave it and assume they were prepared accordingly (my whole "adventurers are competent" argument I've brought up before on the channel) and not force the spellcasting players to "waste" spell slots on stuff like that. (Mind you, I'd hope the players would come around to realizing that playing the resource management *can* be a lot of fun if they give it a chance). The material components for spells are not consistent, for sure, but that's something I tend to modify as a DM. In the version of the game I play (1981 Basic D&D by Moldvay), the spells don't even have material components, but I introduced them anyway, as I like the roleplaying aspects it adds to the game.
@@daddyrolleda1 Ow yeah its just a thing DM's have to account for. I've ran a dungeon where the barbarian rolled a 1 trying to close the door causing a cave in and then the fighter of the party simply shruged and said we have a druid and cleric we have nothing to fear from being stuck in a laberinth of passage ways without any means of food or water. Turning navigating the dungeon more in to a slog then a plight of desperation for resources to maintain the party. Mind you this is the same party that has had issues with a halfling player rerolling 1s because that would take away interesting things from happening. It always cracks me up when i stumble on players like that.
Any time the expedition uses magic to solve a mundane problem, it means they will have less magic available when an exceptional or risky problem shows up. But you could use certain spells to let a group cross a desert relatively easy. But whenever you have a run-in with anything from some hyenas to a desert dragon flying overhead you will have less magic. Each day you have -2 spells, including the day they got the drop on you. Sometimes I toss in encounters with people who are a bit scruffed or have used their spells for other things. Like a wizard who has used two level 1 spell slots, but he has two Charmed gnolls along. WFRP used a lot of varying ritual items. Sometimes you just need a small silver bell you ring each time you use a spell, sometimes you need to crush a jewel each time you cast. All these things are stuff enemies can frisk you for. When you want to meet a gang boss, her goons will try to frisk you for both hidden pistols and spell components. Then you can surrender that little silver bell or that bag of guano, or try to hide it somewhere.
@@SusCalvin Eh, in a different campaign i had a gnome noble that ended up eating one of his servants in his private tent and the party wondering how he wasn't starving. This you can have fun with as a DM where friends relatives ending up putting missing person posters etc. The noble resolved it by planting the clothes on a group of cannibal lizardmen. It was a fun thing that ran in the background of a campaign but one single berry resolves all that and you don't want to restrict a party by going down the list of "banned spells" or bleeding or stealing their resources. Its one of those things that bug me as to how they didn't think certain spells are terrible mechanicly in a resource game setting.
Thinking back on it, I think the Ultima series ended up using a magic system close to Blackmoor's. Where you mixed spell component's before hand and each spell had a limited number of uses. The more powerful spells had less uses IIRC I haven't played Ultima 4 in a while.
You might be right! I have to admit, I was woefully unknowledgeable about video games, so I never think to mention them in my videos. Thanks for sharing this insight! And, thank you for watching and commenting!
Very few early D&D spells are "fire&forget". Magic Missile is the only one I know that tracks the enemy and cannot be evaded. Most spells need to be targeted but can be avoided to some extent. Now memorization (better thought of as charging a template) and forgetting on cast (better thought of as finishing/releasing the prepared charge) are another thing. The downside of the memorization/preparation sequence leads to most situational spells being ignored unless there is time during adventures to prepare custom spells. That is why many other systems used either spell slots or total mana to limit casting, but didn't limit the casting to only pre-prepared spells. Runequest used a mana limit of a characters Power stat, with spells being limited to a character's Intelligence in readied spell levels (changeable by meditating at 1 level per hour), with more powerful spells using up more capacity. This worked well, especially since there were no classes or levels and all characters used magic (frontline characters specializing in combat assist magic and healing, and back line specializing in ranged magic and healing, with at least 2 having healing 6 to reattach severed limbs)
Warlocks actually are in 3.5's Complete Arcane supplement and Eldritch Blast is actually basically the class's cornerstone feature. It wasn't actually a spell though, merely a spell like ability. Warlocks didn't even get spells properly. Instead they got a limited number of Invocations which were at-will spell like abilities.
Thank you very much for the correction. I have Complete Arcane and I knew the Warlock debuted in that book, but I never played (or DM'd) one, and I'd forgotten they also had Eldritch Blast. I think my overall point still stands, though, in that, starting with 4E, *all* arcane casters were given things they can do without needing to "recharge" them after use ("At Will" powers in 4E, Cantrips in 5E). It's an expectation and a specific design philosophy to give arcane casters something they can do every round, equivalent to a martial class swinging a weapon each round. Doing that removes the resource management part of magic-use. Thank you for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it, and I hope you enjoyed the rest of the video.
@@daddyrolleda1 a fun class that's never been brought back since 3.x's Dragon Magic supplement is the Dragonfire Adept. It was basically "What if Warlock but draconic instead of vague powerful entity?" Probably wouldn't be TOO hard to port as an "expanded subclass" to the 5e Warlock. (Expanded subclass as in it would also include some feature replacements in addition to the normal subclass bits for the class)
That is such a great way to look at it. I think there's a *LOT* of stuff from previous editions that could be used in a 5E game, sometimes with very little effort. I use stuff from 1E, 2E, 5E, and sometimes 3.5 in my B/X game all the time! I don't use 4E stuff as I'm not super familiar with the mechanics, but I do like to reference the 4E DM Guide, which I think has great advice and inspirational stuff to use regardless of edition.
My explanation for every setting I have DMed. > Magic pours from Chaos. > Spells are creatures from Chaos. > Spell books are MK Ultra conditioning to allow mortal minds to think out-of-the-order. Wizars study those books so they can entramp those spell-chaotic-creatures in their minds. > Spell casting makes Wizards to release those spells in a "safe" way. Released spells try to return to their native planes, and they affect reality in the process, the effect of that warping is what we call "magic effect". > Since the spell is no longer in Wizard's mind, he needs to repeat the process.
@@daddyrolleda1 Because of this process I developed several tables for failed spell casting; under a certain d% due to Wizard's level and spell level or tier, then I came to a d20 chart as in DCC. And consequences were funny. Palladium RPG had a very different approach, one not making the spell book a must-have.
Great video. I agree on resource management adding flavor. However, when we played 1E I could never talk my players into playing a caster because of how weak they were at the start. We pretty much ran all melee builds as a result
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I've always tended to gravitate toward martial/melee classes myself for whatever reason. I think part of it might be somewhat akin to Gary Gygax's preference for martial classes, because they were the heroes of the fantasy fiction he read as inspiration. I grew up reading stories about King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and also Greek Mythology, and none of the heroes/main characters in those stories were wizards. And then, as you point out, magic-users in early D&D are very weak at early levels, and back then I wasn't a clever enough player to be able to handle that!
@@daddyrolleda1 nowadays is different of course. The casters are super powerful. However I now prefer rogues (arcane trickster,) style builds. Thank you!
for me the fun of table top rpgs is improvisational acting and interactive story telling. these elements arose kind of as unintended byproducts of what was a competitive war game and resource management game, but many systems now have simplified or eliminated those aspects in favor of tools to create story beats, relationships and even personal inner demons.
I understand why they had limited spells and limited usage in first edition, but in retrospect, it’s kind of a mess. The Wizard gets to cast one spell, and then he’s essentially done until the party goes back to town to rest for the night. Thanks for these discussions. It’s really interesting to look at the complicated systems. We put up with in first edition. Everything is so much more streamlined now, and definitely makes more sense. I remember trying to explain how all the different things worked in the first addition to my players back when we were kids in 1980. There was no logic, there was no standard rules, it just was and you needed to learn it.
Everyone is a bit crappy at level 1. Give a fighter a hit that removes 4 of their 6 hp, and they will also start talking about retreating to the rear. One way if a campaign really wants to skip the level 1 grind is to start at a slightly higher level. Everyone on Athas in Dark Sun immediately starts around level 3 just from growing up on Athas. When you give a starting PC xp equivalent to a level 3 fighter, that should let you play a level 2 wizard who isn't too far from level 3. Level 3 is when the game starts to tip over for an m-u.
Interesting history behind the early D&D magic system. However, I'm not sure how the term "fire and forget" fits as the distinguishing characteristic of Vancian magic. My understanding is that this refers, typically, to either a type of guided weapon that, once fired, does not require further guidance, or (more generally) any activity that can be started and then left to complete itself.
I agree partially with resource management. I like to play without checking for things that are common sense to buy. They always have arrows and components for basic spells. Special arrows, bombs, high level spells, etc require them to buy ingredients. I've played aorund with having players drop some gold everytime they're in town, so they have basics as long as they have gold. For spell components, it's a difference of the magic system when I run a game. I primarily think of magic as an economy of energy: how much you can channel, how much your body can withstand moving through it, and your ability to control what you channel. When I run a game, my magic system is more like running circuitry and programming than it is in normal DnD. As far as using materials, like rope, the group determines that in session 0, and I leave it to them to be honest if they decide to monitor resources like that.
Limitations generate creativity. Likewise in arts, like fx composing music: If you start out defining restrictions for yourself, you'll more often end up with something new and different.
I like the old ways of playing. I was our DM, and I (we) kept track of time in game, rations, money, etc...We all enjoyed our games, there was depth and a strategy my players used. It was great. Then a new friend joined the group. He had played before, extensively. He did not like the "exrta" details. Enjoyment definitely suffered. It wasn't long after that we got into Rogue Trader and DnD was left behind. That was the late 80's. We are getting the DnD back on the table now. I'm staying with our original AD&D game. It's the best. ❤
This is a wonderful analysis. Magic use in early D&D rewarded careful thought, planning, and judgement. I remember playing at an Origins tournament around '78. My pregen was a level one MU with 1 hit point and one spell. That spell was shield. It was a competition and I knew it all came down to knowing when to use the spell. I don't recall who won, but I survived to the end of the game (most didn't). I went away feeling extremely proud, to the point that I remember it after 45 years.
That is such a great story! I love hearing about people's game memories, and it's especially cool to me that you were at an Origins tournament near the very founding of the hobby! You clearly were playing in a cautious and smart manner to survive to the end!
The crew was bashing in a door with a bunch of gits behind it. One of them has a single spell, Shield, and immediately uses it on himself. So when they come running in they immediately start whacking his friends, but find out there is an almost impervious dude at the back constantly shooting a pistol at them.
Not mentioned is that the MU can also equip a sling and help to lower enemy HP at range.
@@rcschmidt668 Some OSR games did away with weapon limitations, some don't even limit armour but just calculate weight instead.
An MU then fights close to a level 0 man-at-arms. The MU can pick up a shotgun and shoot someone, just not as good as a fighter. And especially not with the same hp as a fighter to back them up when someone shoots back.
@@SusCalvin That is true, but the context was early D&D versions, where there were strict limits.
I run my own system of D&D that i built specifically for people to be able to sit down and play with little to no learning curve. I use inventory management like this: every player gets their own copy of the od&d item list. You can hold items equal to your Con score. You can invest in an item slot which means when you need a specific item you can have any item from the regular shop appear in that item slot so long as your investment would cover the cost.
I use tangible coins and gems as well so you can just place your coin or gem of appropriate value on item slot on your character sheet at the table
Sounds like a fun system! I know a few retro-clones such as Lamentations of the Flame Princess use slot-based encumbrance, and I do like that idea a lot.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
The confusion over the use of level was one of the earliest jokes in the Order of the Stick webcomic, in episode #12.
We must go down a level to fight harder monsters! 😁
Oh, wow... I used to read Order of the Stick all the time back in the early 3E days when I discovered it. I spent many a lunch hour at work trying to catch up on back episodes, but I later got let go from that job and didn't have Internet access at home (I know that must sound strange in these days, but it was true at the time!) so I stopped reading for a few months before finding another job, and I never went back.
@@gwivongalois6169 ... so we can go gain more experience to go up in levels to cast spells of higher levels!
Was never confusing to anyone I ever played with.
I replace spell level to spell tier
First off, I want to thank you for your videos. Really brings me down memory lane, and I occasionally learn something new. My homebrew got rid of fire and forget, spells per level, and all that. I feel that magic should be dark and mysterious, unpredictable and dangerous. Not just a cut-and-dried, safe list of spells. So I went with a roll-to-cast system. You roll for everything else in that game, so why not? A chance of a spell fizzling and ruining your plans really spices things up. And if you critically fail, it could end up causing damage to the caster, aging them, even mutating them (scales instead of skin, anyone?). In my solo game recently, I managed to flub the roll, magically paralyze my ally, and suffer a point of Corruption (which adds to the miscast result and can make a bad situation even worse). And yes, my preferences run more towards Conan and Elric than Tolkien and Forgotten Realms.
Thank you so much! I'm very glad you enjoy the videos and that sometimes you learn something new from them.
I'm running a B/X game for my daughter and her friends right now and at the beginning I decide to adhere pretty closely to RAW but after a few sessions of playing, I wish I'd implemented roll-to-cast because I, too, was looking at a more swords-and-sorcery world where magic is dangerous and unpredictable. I have had specific situations arise where the casters do have to roll (based on a place being so evil that it tainted the magic auras, etc.) but I didn't want to change the system on the players mid-game. The next time I start a new campaign, though, I'm definitely considering adding that kind of element to it.
Thanks for sharing!
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons already has base game rules within both the Players Handbook and the DMG for spell failure.
I started out with a 1e/2e amalgam game and Vancian Magic was heavily enforced. Didn’t think anything of it. But I didn’t truly GET Vancian Magic until I actually read the Dying Earth stories. And now I’m more of a believer than ever before. It felt like magic and not superpowers like in modern editions. The stories by Jack Vance felt like you were reading folklore and mythology and the way magic was portrayed enhanced that feeling. So for those that just think of game balance and mechanics try actually reading the Dying Earth stories so you’ll truly understand the magic of the concept.
I very much agree! I also (at the time) wasn't aware of Vance's stories when I discovered D&D, but I also didn't have any context as far as D&D, so the spellcasting rules didn't bother me. Once I discovered Vance, I began to figure out why the D&D magic rules work the way they do.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
The way I tend to think about it is that early D&D functioned like a roguelike.
Regarding Tenser's Floating Disk, Tenser realized that they were accumulating more good in their adventures than he could carry, so he came up with a spell that would allow him to lift the gold off the ground and move it with him along smooth, flat surfaces, without needing to fight against the weight. Someone in bronze-age mesopotamia had a very similar idea, attaching wooden disks to a basket. Tenser *LITERALLY* _reinvented the wheel._
I like that explanation! And it made me laugh. Thanks for watching and for sharing!
Tenser's arcane wheelbarrow
@@badideagenerator2315 (more mine cart in the original context, but yeah, pretty much)
roguelike is the most overused phrase in gaming in what way was dnd and ad&d like the game rogue
@fanda6122 An emphasis on dungeon crawls, dungeon layouts determined by die rolls or arbitrary whim, monsters and treasure placed equally arbitrarily, little and mostly irrelevant narrative context, progress measured largely by the treasure you find (xp was based on how much treasure you got out with), and the expectation that the player characters are expendable and any given dungeon crawl will be unique in its details but functionally interchangeable with any other dungeon crawl.
That's largely how Gygax and Arneson ran the game, judging by what I've read, and how early editions were designed to function.
I had never played Chainmail or OD&D, having only discovered its existence in 1980 or 81 when I stumbled on a Red Box B/X and gaped in wonder at the notion I could PLAY A GAME like Conan, Elric or LotR. I must have stood there smitten for some minutes, gaping like a fool, before hastily opening my wallet to determine if I had enough money to buy it. :)
Thank you for sharing your story!
For me, friends at school said that D&D was like Lord of the Rings, but you got to BE Strider instead of just read about him! So, it was kind of similar to your experiences, except you using the original pulp fantasy inspirations!
And, thank you for watching and commenting!
I had never seen an actual game of D&D played - only heard about it from classmates at school. Their description was "it's about wizards and warriors fighting monsters, and the game went on forever". Whatever it was, I knew I had to get it. Xmas that year I received the Basic boxed set. One friend got Basic as well, another got AD&D. Together we figured out how to play. Good memories.
Another early rule of spell recovery that ties into resource management is it takes 15 minutes per level of spell to recover. Later editions automatically has them recover after a long rest.
I'm personally not a fan of either short or long rest mechanics the way they're handled in 5E. Nothing wrong with folks who like them, but it's just not my style.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1haven't finished watching the video but what's your ideal magic system.
Rest recovery spells came about lore wise cause Karsus broke the weave, and Mystral set new limits on magic users, like no spells beyond 9th level, you gotta sleep to get a spell back, etc.
Mechanically, WotC is looking to change things every edition to keep it “new and interesting”
@@daddyrolleda1there’s an OSR I take from called Low Fantasy Gaming, and they have a several day long rest system (longer if not in a town, and short rests you have to make Will checks (they split wisdom into willpower and perception) in order to gain benefits.
@drkmgic Thank you for watching (hopefully you finished the video) and commenting! I really appreciate it.
And... that's a tough question. I really think the magic system should be tied to the setting and the rules. For example, I think the system in Ars Magica works great for that particular setting and for the rules systems. I also think the very stripped down system in Savage Worlds is perfect for a game of "Fast, Furious, Fun!" (the mantra of Savage Worlds) because it works to capture that kind of aesthetic. Both of those are *very* different from the D&D system, but I think they are "ideal" for the system for which the were created.
What about you? Do you have a magic system you prefer?
Thanks for the video! Catching up with some ones I missed. New name for cocktail? Sword of Cynar (or on the rocks, Elfstones of Cynar)! Have a good holiday,
Oh my goodness.. BRILLIANT! I am so going to make a cocktail like that! Thanks for the idea/suggestion. It'll take some workshopping, but look for it soon.
And thanks for the holiday wishes. I hope your Fourth was fun as well!
Many have bemoaned the idea that a wizard “forgets” their spells every day - I think the best in-universe explanation of daily spell “memorization” comes from 3e - wizards prepare their spells in the morning by beginning the casting of the spell and stopping just before it is complete - spells are so complex and precise that wizards require references to perform the ritual, hence the spell book - when they decide to ultimately “cast” them, they finish the ritual with a quick flourish on their turn - if they want to cast that spell again, they have to have another copy prepared or rest and prepare it once again - the spell isn’t so much erased from their memory as it is completed, and the ritual must be started again to be able to cast it once more - this also was why sorcerers were special in 3e - they didn’t have to prepare spells and could cast any they knew as many or few times per day as they wished, tho they had a smaller pool - unfortunately the spells known to spell slots ratio never found a good balance between the two classes, and wizards pretty consistently out performed sorcerers - that said, sorcerers were a nice way to ease those new to casting into an arcane class - some have argued against that use of sorcerers, but it made sense at my table - this also was the source of spell mastery - a wizard could train a single spell to the point that they new the ritual by heart and didn’t require their spell book to prepare that spell after a rest - 3e got some things very right, which is why Paizo further refining it in Pathfinder was so amazing and why 5e just reverted to 3e ignoring much of 4e, except that everyone had magic - giving everyone magic in 5e basically tacked on an entirely new dimension to a game that was built on foundations unprepared for it
Thank you for watching and commenting!
Your explanation is what I've been saying in the comments to the video when people say it's "stupid" that wizards "forget" spells. It's exactly like you said - they don't forget. They just "complete" the spell which means they have to prepare it again as the magical energy has been dispersed in the casting.
Back in the late 1E / early 2E days, while "between games" and working on a campaign setting that I hoped to use, I started coming up with different approaches to magic and basically had a sorcerer type ("innate magic") before that was a thing, but I didn't make the rules as fiddly as they were in the 3E version.
If the ritual thing is accurate, why have limited spells per day, well as an in universe explanation. I suspect just like hit points, it's a game mechanic and we aren't supposed to think about much and just have fun.
Nah, the real answer is that the early writers of D&D were big fans of the writings of Jack Vance, and specifically they were fans of his Dying Earth novel(s) in which wizards cast spells by memorizing a spell formula/ritual, and then upon casting the spell the magic would literally burn the memory of itself out of their brains.
That's the true origin of the "Vancian" magic system. So named for Jack Vance.
Yeah... That's how I've come to understand it.
And since you brought it up (and I totally didn't just go looking for it in the comments) Pathfinder... My favorite TTRPG system, btw. 1st Edition, at least.
But it is not without flaws. I know people really like it but infinite cantrips annoy me... It trivializes certain aspects of resource management.
I heard somewhere that "cantrips are spells whose incantations are the same forwards and backwards" so I posit these magical little palindromes are usable twice per preparation... So more bang for your buck than it was in 3e, but now a single Cleric doesn't make torches obsolete for the rest of time... Just some of the time... Or up to 2 hours and 40 minutes a day at 20th level.
Honestly, the math isn't all that bad. Really, it is better than I thought even with the "10 minutes a level" duration...
That's how I run my next game if ever I get to run one again.
@@MisterZimbabwe Even if that is the real life origin, and even if we assume earlier versions copied it verbatim with no original thought at all, all it means it started that way. It still doesn't automatically means it remained or has to remain the same in-universe reasoning for all set ups using the system. The inspiration was for the gamey mechanics of it, for their resource management aspect, not really for the lore or how one is supposed to interpret it in role playing terms.
27:25 The resource management was an integral part of our D&D adventures when I was playing initially (1977 onward). We had to keep track of iron rations, rope, spikes, arrows, if we did not have a mule then we had to figure if we could carry stuff (even if we did), etc. We had to have bags to carry things. That was all part and parcel to exploring the dungeon!
We played that way, too, to a point but starting in the mid-late 80's, the groups I was playing with stopped doing that. The focus was more on "story" with stuff like Dragonlance. When I started playing 3E in the early 2000's, resource management wasn't even a consideration for the groups I played in.
The line about if magic is too easy and power players will get bored. That is exactly why I left 5E, however a lot of players I've had so far just want easy free power and no challenge.
By the way I own a copy of Outdoor Survival but I've never played it. When I learned it was part of the inspiration of D&D I was curious so I looked it up thinking it would be expensive but it's surprisingly cheap. I also got an Avalon hill magazine that apparently has a Dune(As in Frank Herbert) scenario.
How cool you got a copy of Outdoor Survival! I only recently thought about maybe trying to track one down, but I haven't looked into it yet.
That Dune game you're talking about, if it's the board game from the 1970's, is like a collector's item now and goes for a pretty penny among gamers who know what it is. After the license was canceled, a company recreated the game without the IP (I forget what it was called, off the top of my head), but just recently a revised game using the original IP was re-released!
Thank you for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 I thought you had misunderstood me about the Dune thing because I thought it was a Scenario for Outdoor Survival published in Avalon hill magazine. However I Looked and it turns out I'm wrong there is a large review of the board game you're talking about but not a Dune Scenario for Outdoor Survival, instead it's a scenario called The Hunt.
I really want to play Outdoor Survival, it would be hard to get a group to try it. I haven't spent much time looking into it and I wonder if it can be played solo, that might be fun. I'll report back in the future.
The big problem with resource management is that most designers use it like a coin operated TV while watching a sports game. So you have to get up every 10 minutes and put in a new coin which is just an annonyance when you just want to watch the game.
Outstanding Video! Again, thank you.
I started with AD&D in early '79. I am pretty sure we micro-managed resources but I don't recall anyone ever being off-put by it --- in fact, it was "rewarding" to have what was needed in the moment when it was the correct tool for the job while in the dungeon.
I personally never really cared for Magick-users and their Spell progression / rules, but now I understand why more modern iterations of the game keep trying to recreate the Fighter while giving more, faster, meta magick to the Wizard. In an effort to make the Wizard more "appealing" they have had to increase the Damage output of the fighter to even attempt to keep any semblance of balance between the Characters. And of course that has led to the "arms race" that 5e represents nowadays. But still, "linear fighter, quadratic wizard" because higher level spells are still rather quick to cast and don't have that Constitution concept originally laid down by Arneson. There is a pearl of wisdom contained therein.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate your compliment, and also you watching and commenting!
I really do like the Arneson idea of magic-users having spellcasting tied to their Constitution. It's a different way of implementing a rule of "you can only cast a certain number of spells per day" mechanic. Gary obviously chose fire-and-forget via the Vancian explanation, but Arneson accomplishes much of the same thing, and perhaps even a little more elegantly. Of course, he doesn't explain his rules in detail, but a clever and creative DM can of course figure out a system that makes sense.
I know a lot of folks really hate the linear fighter / quadratic wizard, and I do get that, but to Gary, that was game balance. Fighters are "front-loaded" because they have more HP, better armor (so also better AC) and do more damage, so they are much more likely to survive an excursion into a dungeon than a magic-user is. So, the trade-off is that a magic-user who actually does survive those early levels is rewarded with a lot of power at higher levels.
It doesn't always make sense or jive with modern game design theory, but it wasn't done without forethought.
Thanks again!
I like your idea D&D is a game of resource management. I am starting up a 1st edition campaign with my family. That will help on some understanding
This makes me so happy to hear! First, that you are running an old-school game with your family. That is music to my ears. I have a whole playlist here on the channel (the "DM Advice" one) that's mostly about the old-school Moldvay Basic D&D game I run for my daughter and her friends.
Secondly, I am really glad to hear that my ideas are inspiring you for your game. That's the main reason I started this channel, so hearing that people are inspired by my ideas is a real morale boost.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I'd love to hear about your game after you get going.
I really like the idea of having to prepare magical reagents as spell preparation much more than "your brain is a mind-trap for spell energy". And with a "you have to let the magical dough rise before any more lightning bolts can be cast", you have a much better diegetic explanation for why if the wizard has a few hours free time, they can't memorize some new spells - you mix it at dinner time, and it's not ready until breakfast!
As for resource management, I've been playing for about 3 decades now, and resource management through counting discreet instances of single resources has never felt fun; when to use a magical ability, who to cast the last fireball in the rod at - those are more interesting choices, but usually the math of rations v. travel time always just became "we'll take twice as many as we need." I prefer different mechanics to provide interesting choices, but then I thought of RPGs as less about resource management, and more about dealing with unexpected situations (often driven or generated by random dice), and making interesting choices in response. And it's cool that people can play the same game in different ways, and have different kinds of fun.
Growing up, we never used resource management in our games. As I've come around to running a game for my daughter and her friends using an older edition (1981 Basic), I've learned resource management can be a lot of fun. As you said, it does speak to the flexibility of the system that different people can play different ways and still have fun.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
35:00 advanced shooter games like Far Cry 4: when to stealth. When to run away. When to use car. When to throw Animal Lure. Where to place the explosive on the road / outpost... No-stealth zombie mowing is pretty different.
Regarding 'D&D as Competition'; I've actually been playing since '74, when the 3 brothers 3 doors down the street got the Original Woodgrain Box. I've played and run every edition since, (except the miniatures game that lied about being an RPG), both as campaigns with long-running groups and as one-off tournaments. I have always considered RP as a 'cooperative competition', where the challenge was to create interesting stories by interacting with differing goals.
That is fantastic that you've been playing since the year it came out and have continued to play since! Thanks for sharing your story!
I've played most of the editions, except I've never actually *played* OD&D or Holmes, and while we used modules from BECMI, I never had those rules or the Rules Cyclopedia. I also never got a chance to play a straight an Advanced 2E game (had a ton of books and created a lot of NPCs and and scenarios, but we had moved shortly before that edition came out and it took me forever to find a new group, and by the time I found one, they were playing Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, not 2E). My most hours of playing is combined 3E/3.5/Pathfinder1E (I consider them together, from a mechanics standpoint) and only played 4E and 5E briefly.
Do you have a favorite set of mechanics/edition?
Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 for depth of character "development", the rules in 3/3.5 work best for me, but early 5e is what I consider best for teaching the core mechanics & concepts.
My brother and I play a first edition/second edition hybrid, and we use the spell point system, as it allows magic users and clerics to use a wider range of spells
Ah! Is that the spell point system from those later 2E era books (the "Player's Option" series)? I never used those. Thanks for sharing!
@daddyrolleda1 yes it is from Spells and Magic
More great stuff! One thing a lot of starting characters gloss over are the cost of material components, 100gp for 'Find Familiar'! In one game this became a pre-adventure mission, resulting in the wizard charming a local cleric to let him have the component at half price; the cleric rolled very low on the saving roll becoming the wizardsfavourite fan.... the second part of this spell, the casting / waiting time caused the rest of the party to gain some rumours about where they were going, the familiar turned out to be an owl, (a silent flying nocturnal scout...).
Yes, for sure! I know when we were kids, we *always* hand-waved the material components, but I make it an integral part of the game I run with my daughter (even though technically B/X doesn't have material components).
It can be a very fun part of a campaign, going to search for material components, particularly really rare ones for higher level spells!
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
I think Familiar has never been a spell people like to use. Either the familiar produced is too useless or the cost of getting your pet owl killed is too high. In 2nd ed it was -1 CON permanently, and it was fairly easy to kill these little animals. They could stay at the back of formations but that didn't save them from the occasional gas attack.
@@SusCalvin not having played 2nd the CON loss is a better solution, however the fact you can get 'magical creatures' only 5% of the time only leads to the wrangling on the PC's part, better to ignore the result of 15 or replace it with player choice of lesser creatures, and a single HP if it is killed. These are 1st an 2nd characters that use this spell in the main and it can give massive benifits while there for a mere 100gp... Oh and I have seen DM's overly target familiars, they seem to forget cats have 9 lives so why not other familiars too!
@@AyebeeMk2 Familiars end up getting killed even if they actively keep them at the back and I actively target more important threats. They can spring a trap and fall down, and this 1HD toad takes a little bit of fall damage and dies. Any sort of breath attack and the familiar gets it too.
I don't know exactly what familiars give. In 3rd they gave you a feat, like Alertness +2 from acting as lookouts etc. It could sneak around and look into a room for you, but a housecat can fight and defeat most familiars one on one.
never played 2,3,3.5,4,5 also their own weight would fail to set off traps otherwise every gust of wind would do the same, further; most house cats can be defeated by a cucumber (see vids), area weapons: it is well know how 'pets' avoid accidents etc when owners are engulfed by them, also they can be anywhere with a mile, that is a huge area for a breath area weapon. 'Players' on the other hand who use their familiars as suicide tripwires deserve everything coming to them... @@SusCalvin
Another wonderful video. It's interesting that Gygax recognized the martial/caster imbalance as early as 1976 (a few months before I was born!), but 47 years later we are still dealing with it. I love how earlier versions of D&D balanced compared to 5e.
5e is still a great system, but earlier versions were more complex in how classes and races were balanced (or how tradeoffs were made when classes and races were intentionally unbalanced).
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
I really appreciate your outlook. I think every edition has pros and cons and things to offer, and I borrow liberally from a variety of editions in the B/X game I run for my daughter and her friends.
Thanks again!
It depends on what kind of game you wanna play i think if you want to use resouce management. If you want to play a Story game with set pieces i think you don't want a lot of recouse managment as it slows down the story. But if you want to play an exploration game where you create your own story it makes sense. i like both things. Sometimes it is relaxing not to think about resources but it can be intriguing as well.
A lot of older RPG books are written with more enthusiasm than editing skill. They can make a procedure harder than it is when they don't have the words for it. But I think the procedure at heart is simple and leaves more time for the story and events.
I think some story-heavy games that tries to create story with a mechanic are more cumbersome, and accidentally puts great limits on what my PC can say and feel and think.
I like the idea that magic just has special rules and the nature of casting a spell is that you only get it once a day. No multiple castings of anything, no changing out one spell for a other. If you choose sleep then that’s your spell choice, you get it once a day and that’s it. It takes further magic to be able to cast anything more than once per day.
But also the Blackmoor version of having a limited amount of ingredients ready is a much better choice than ‘memorizing and forgetting’ spells.
I think both can have their uses. I used to hate fire-and-forget magic when I was a kid, but in the game I'm currently running for my daughter, I am really liking it and the players don't seem to mind (but as I always point out, they also don't have any context for anything different, so they're not comparing it to something else).
I definitely like using the rarity of components, but I combine it with fire-and-forget.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I hope you stick around and find other videos you like!
So, 36:10 - I find that different genres of game are great for different systems, and the various D&D editions each support stories different from each other.
Though hardly my favorite version of the game, I’ve been enjoying 4e lately, and I always enjoy the fact that most statements made by older editions get brought up there, too.
“It’s a resource management game.” applies to each edition, but each interfaces with that phrase in completely different ways.
Even when you have at Will abilities, you have resources to manage-hit points, if nothing else, but hit dice, and other notable limits exist.
In those cases, it becomes a matter of what genre you most want to emulate (as well as which mechanics you find fun to interface with).
Thing is, the types of fantasy genres you can make with the different editions don’t always readily map to recognizable genres we tend to have in other fiction, so it can be difficult at times to tell what your creating.
Overall it’s fascinating.
This was a good review. Most games I've played in the DM changed magic to a "mana" type system, more along the lines of what a sorceror is now. They hated the idea of having to memorize spells that you could only cast once, even if you could cast three spells in a day.
Thank you for watching and commenting!
My experience has been that the Vancian style of magic is one of the first things a lot of folks change when they begin to tinker with the system. I used to really dislike it, but I've come back around to appreciating it for the choices it forces one to make in the game, and how it adds to world-building. But I also enjoy games that don't use that type of system.
Gary hated Wizards/Magic Users and couldn't understand why anyone would ever want to play one.
He picked the Vancian system because it made sense in terms of game mechanics. He was incredibly well read in terms of fantasy literature and game rules/mechanics, and the Vancian system was the most straightforward in terms of structuring limitations on players.
When people talk about "Old School" D&D I think they often mean stripped back rules, and the imminent threat of death, but for me it's about the style of play. Hex Crawls, Dungeon Survival and Resource Management are the sort of things that make an old school game for me.
All of which can be done in pretty much any RPG.
My current (AD&D) game had the players start in a prison in a desert, and after they escaped, and had to find their way home, (being only 1st level) the Priest had to choose whether he was going to memorize Create Water ahead of Cure Light Wounds. Months later, when they were back in their homeland, when he finally hit 5th Level and could use "Create Food and Drink" there was an almost palpable sigh of relief from the entire party.
Yes, Gary definitely had that viewpoint on wizards/magic-users! I mentioned it in one of my earlier videos - either the one on Clerics/Paladins/Rangers/Illusionists/Bards or the one on Assassins/Monks/Druids. But yes, his fantasy fiction growing up all featured big muscle-bound fighter type heroes on the cover, not "weak" magic-users, and in much of the inspirational fiction, magic-use is akin to being evil (like in the Conan stories).
Old School gaming being about a style of play and not about "rules light" is definitely the way I look at it as well, and hopefully that comes across in my videos. I do prefer systems that allow greater Referee freedom to make rulings, but also like play to focus on survival and resource management (I talk about that a lot in the videos on my campaign & session prep).
Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@daddyrolleda1 I absolutely agree on the whole leaving it to the DM to adjudicate rulings.
Most of my players live miles apart these days so in person gaming isn't an option, Roll20 has made it so simple for me to ditch ruleboooks and just go with whatever makes the most sense at the moment it happens.
Played a 4 hour game session last night and the only time I checked a rulebook was when one of the players tried to rip a lightning conductor out of the floor, for some reason his character sheet hadn't autofilled his "Bend Bars/Lift Gates" and I checked the PHB for him. Everything else was either handled by macros for stndard/combat rolls, or I made rulings based on two factors; "Common Sense" and whether or not the players were making good decisions.
I hate games when the players have a great idea, plan it out and execute it... then the dice let them down.
I'd be interested to know your opinion on the Gygaxian Law of Dice? (I'm paraphrasing so if I get this slightly wrong, I apologise; "*A good DM only rolls dice for tthe noise they make*"
It's a rule I've lived by for over forty years, But I know it a serious point of contention with newer players.
So glad you got to play recently! That is awesome! I've not yet become accustomed to playing online. When I DM, I stand the entire time, and I'm also moving around and interacting with specific players like going right up to them to engage with them as an NPC, or, for example, using rock-paper-scissors to resolve a chase sequence. Stuff like that doesn't translate well to an online game, sadly.
So, for dice, I know a lot of newer gamers don't like the idea of it, especially more narrative/story-based DMs and groups who put the needs of the story ahead of the dice. And that's a fine way to play if that's the style of game they enjoy. I used to play that way even as recently at 5-6 years ago.
I do get your point that if the players are being clever, it sucks when the dice let them down. In cases like that, I would probably adjudicate it as whether there was a really bad consequence for failure. If not, and they are competent, then no dice roll. If they planned well and "did everything right" but there was still a potentially bad consequence if they failed, then I'd probably have them roll, but then "fail forward." They took so long that a group of monsters/whatever arrived. They were spotted by someone who now has that information and can use it against them. They saved the day but the BBEG escaped to try to get revenge. They were able to crack the code on the secret document so they know the location of the treasure, but one of their hirelings plans to betray them and keep it for himself. Etc.
But, overall, I look at refereeing a game as:
1) I design the conflict
2) The players tell me how their character intend to interact/engage with that conflict
3) The dice determine the outcome. Everybody has a bad day once in a while. We can't always win. Picard gets captured by the Borg. Boromir succumbs to the power of the Ring. Ned Stark is executed. Without loss and failure, the successes seem hollow. Similarly, even an average person can have a great and lucky day once in a while! Three completely inexperienced and frightened children save Captain Picard during a disaster on the Enterprise. Samwise Gamgee, a simple gardener, defeats Shelob. Lyanna Mormont, a 10 year-old girl, gets a lucky hit against an undead ice giant.
Using the (as James Maliszewski, from Grognardia) calls it, "the oracular power of the dice" has freed me up to become so much more creative and interpret the results of the dice. I even bring my players into it. "Oh, no! A natural one! Critical failure! Tell me what happens."
All insight aside, I'm jealous of the childhood your giving your kid, and her friends.
Looks forward to all the content to come, and the thoughts it will provoke.
Thank you very much! I love being able to do this for her as time we can share together as she gets older and we have fewer and fewer things in common.
Thank you for your support!
I think its really cool all the history of Fireball, think in my future campaigns I will rename it to Leonard's Fireball as a homage.
That's awesome! I love naming spells! Thanks for watching and commenting!
I love the early Conan story where he finds an evil sorcerer and throws a chair at him. "Arcane horror! Take Ikea with an order of Cimmerian Meatballs and lingonberry sauce."
This cracked me up! I'd love to see a comic strip illustrate this!
Great, well-researched and very clearly presented explanation of the origins of the DnD spell system, well-seated in the context of the early development of the game's mechanics and principles. Thanks!
I really appreciated the linkage to resource management being made explicit, resource management being a central element of the foriginal game (arising naturally from its wargaming roots). Its goal-driven, rules-based resource management that makes an RPG a game, after all, and not just a free-form improv.
PS - Better and more imaginative resource management is the history of human evolution and civilization! (The rules are called "nature"!)
Player: I rub two dry sticks together as fast as I can. Does anything happen?
DM: Your hands blister. A strange smelling mist arises from the sticks, making your eyes water.
Player: What if I add some dry grass to filter the strange mist?
DM: Suddenly a hot flickering light appears and begins to slowly consume the sticks!
Player: Cool! I'll call it fire and use it to light my cave, warm myself in cold weather and cook my food to extract more nutrients.
DM: Add it to your character abilities. Gain +2 to survival and reproduction.
I kind of like the image of a library-as-magical-armoury and a spellcaster considering an upcoming sortie and selecting an 'equipment loadout' for the day, just as limited to how much they can 'carry' as other adventurers, though it obviously fits better into 'heist' or 'resource management' -style games like early D&D which aren't so popular these days in favour of games more focused on the quality of the storytelling, particularly in the fantasy genre.
I think people just have less time to devote to their hobbies, a similar effect is seen with computer games. Being able to pick up and put down the game quickly without losing your place is increasingly prioritized, and while a good thing in itself, it makes certain styles of game harder to pull off.
As computer assistance for tabletop RPGs becomes more ubiquitous, I wonder if more bookkeeping-heavy games with in-depth resource management will come into fashion again?
That's a really interesting question you ask at the end. I'd not thought of that before, but it's an intriguing idea.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
I like to use the in-world-explanation that the knowledge of a spell is not magically erased when you cast it, but rather that the majority of the casting is done as you prepare and you only _complete_ the spell when you finally cast it. The amount of spells you can hold prepared is of course still limited by your level.
I was fortunately spared this confusion of the different meanings of "level" by starting with the German translation, where Spell levels are referred to as "spell grades".
To be fair - the official in game denomination is circle.
Your explanation of why spells are used up when cast is the system they used for third edition, so congrats, you think like a game dev! (And a good one in my opinion.)
@@CowCommando I started playing in 3.X, so that's probably where I got it from.
@@Merrsharr Hey, 3.x is where I first started seriously playing too. It's still my favorite out of every version since then.
Hello Martin, I'm happy to have discovered your channel. I'm 3/4 through this video and it is not only the best you've made, but one of the best anyone has made about D&D. Like the few who are able to present their topics in most objective way possible, this takes the prize. Your comments are based on texts as evidence and are therefor valuable. You are the first that has presented the essay from strategic review that I have seen. Others have, in hindsight, clearly read it, but you've presented it and its ideas as NOT being your own. Too many RUclipsrs as well as journalists at large, conveniently present ideas in such a way that they imply they've garnered them through their own experience - that they have all this empirical knowledge when they in fact and deed do not. A few RUclipsrs have inspired me to start my own channel and I'm almost ready to do so. I have a specific idea and focus for mine, but rest assured yours will be included as an influence. The lego analogy is BRILLIANT. I was also a big space lego fan concurrent with my discovery of AD&D in 1979. I was exclusively space lego and scoffed at the primary colored "bricks" that were "boring" for me at the time. That said, your comparison is still right on target. I also got around to reading Vance this past year and was blown away. I always scoffed at Gary's dismissal of JRRT, but now I understand exactly what he meant - the strategic review article rests the case. Keep these level-headed videos coming. I hope to join you soon in such endeavors.
Yeah, you get it. You even brought out the Legos. It's a balancing act having enough resource management to raise the stakes without getting bogged down in excessive bookkeeping. Sounds like you found the sweet spot.
Bonus comment: Monkey Shoulder is good Scotch. 🥃 Cheers!
Thank you so much! I glad you liked the Lego analogy. I thought it made sense from that standpoint.
And yes, Monkey Shoulder is delicious! It's my main go-to for cocktails that call for blended Scotch. You can tell I've used it a lot because that bottle is almost empty!
I remember, way back in B/X in 80 or 81, finding the magic system odd and the fire-and-forget spells peculiar, but I hadn't read Dying Earth at that time (had never come across it in the bookstore). Forty years later, I prefer uncertain magic that requires RISK management (as in Warhammer, DCC and Black Sword Hack). The idea that swinging a sword can go wrong (thus the d20 roll) but tampering with the laws of the universe always works exactly as described (D&D magic) seems nonsensical. Plus, its fun when a spell goes awry and the Mage finds himself rained upon by offal and pigeon dung. :)
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it.
While I have come around to appreciating Vancian magic, I do like the idea of rolling to cast. I have a spell misfire table for both clerics and magic-users in the B/X game I run for my daughter and her friends, and under certain circumstances, I do make them roll to cast. They get a kick out of rolling on the table to see what happens if they fail their casting roll!
I love how people are discussing game systems and history. It feels like a fun continuation of the Enlightenment! We are very much the product of our times, questioning the origins, reasoning, and functionality of game rules and practices. And now the conversation is evolving into how we can develop better experiences for everyone, and how to get these games more easily into each other's hands.
I'd never thought of it like that, but I really like this explanation!
Thank you so much for watching and commenting. I really appreciate it. Cheers!
Are those reprints!? If not what an excellent collection! Thanks for sharing and explaining the origins of this stuff.
I struggle implementing this resource management in my games. My players don't seem to engage on that level. Perhaps I need to craft my dungeons and encounters to allow and encourage that.
I started playing AD&D ("1stEd") in 1980 and I always had difficulty getting my head around the magic/spell system.
This video has finally explained what the authors seemed to have in mind.
Thankyou for making magic more appealing
I really appreciate this! Thank you for letting me know that this helped you, and also for watching and commenting. Cheers!
There was a book I read years ago that I can't remember the name of, but it used the "you forget how to cast spells after you use them" idea.
The way it was described in the book was the mage sitting and focusing their thoughts and will on forming mana into a particular shape and form, which took a lot of concentration. Not something you could do in combat. Hence the whole spending a while to "memorize spells" thing. And each spell was described as "lurking in the back of his mind, struggling to be set free". So when he'd cast spells, all that energy would go ripping out into the effect he created (lightning bolt was one of his favorites), and once he'd spent all his prepared spells, he was left with only being able to do extremely minor tinkerings with ambient mana (cantrips). Since the spells "wanted" to be used, they were on an almost hair-trigger. At one point he accidentally blew up a bunch of magic items in a crate because he was nearly unconscious and his friend tried to shake him awake, which he reacted to instinctively and cast a lightning bolt.
It was pretty well described, I thought.
Sounds fun, and very similar to Jack Vance's stuff. Thanks for sharing that with me. If you remember the title at any point, make sure to leave another comment to let me know! And, thank you for watching and commenting.
@@daddyrolleda1
After poking through my bookshelf I found the book in question. It's by Joel Rosenberg, part of the "Guardians of the Flame" series.
It's the standard "modern people get trapped in a fantasy world" type setup, though it has some interesting takes on it. Like the girl who plays the cleric can't actually get herself to believe in the god her cleric followed, so she can't access her powers.
I've always hand waved the resource management part of the game(mostly mundane items like arrows or rations) but you're making me rethink my method.
I think it really depends on the style of game, the kind of players you have, and ultimately what you enjoy most out of the game. I just like to point out to folks that it doesn't *have* to be boring if you don't make it boring. It's easy to make it exciting!
I’ve been making my own nocino for almost a decade! I used to give it away at Xmas, but I got the feeling it became as unwanted as fruitcake, unfortunately. Now I only make it every other year. It’s such a good replacement for armoros in traditional cocktails.
I really enjoy your channel.
The year I made this Nocino for my family, I also made Finocchiocello (basically Limoncello, but replacing lemons with fennel) and Basilcello (same, but with Basil). My dad really liked them, but I don't think they were as much of a hit with the rest of the family and I haven't done so since. I have made homemade aged eggnog that I've given out, and cranberry bitters one year. I also took my dad to an Amaro making class, which was a ton of fun.
Thank you for commenting on that part of the video specifically - I'm never sure if people watch to the end.
And I'm so glad you enjoy the channel! Thank you very much for watching and commenting.
Empire of the Petal Throne - which one edition was printed by TSR, calls spell levels Spell Circles - which I like a lot.
EPT also explains magic as a psychic/Ritualistic system, so spells can be psychic or ritual.
Yes, indeed! Thanks for the comments on this. I have a whole video on Empire of the Petal Throne if you're interested: ruclips.net/video/TePumzEe5CM/видео.html
Earthdawn called adept levels circles. "I am a circle five archer".
At a small gaming convention I once participated in a "scored" D&D event - it was quite fun though if my memory serves the referees weren't all on the same page with scoring and the variance was quite high. It's not the RPG I'd want to engage in on a continuing basis but for an event or convention it is a very interesting idea!
Thank you for watching and commenting!
I've not had a chance to play in a scored game, but I think it could be interesting! But yes, not my cup of team for an ongoing campaign.
I love resource management, I think it has led to some of the most interesting games at my table, basically because of the reasons you described.
But in the editions of D&D past 3rd (I include Pathfinder in this as its the only edition I actively play), likely as an emergent property of how the focus of the game has shifted, a lot of people have grown dissatisfied (including myself) with the consequences of a magic system which relies on resource management. This is for three major reasons I can think of.
The first, as you already said, is the idea of the video game blaster caster that we get in media nowadays. I started playing the game before this was really a thing, so I'm not that bothered by it, but for many new players, they expect to have this kind of playstyle supported. I'm not really concerned here either way, because I think the next two reasons are more important, but I figured I would point out this is a lot of people's hangups with a Vancian magic system.
The second is purely mechanical, and thats how the implementation of resource management interacts with the rest if the game system. Since a magic user gets all their spells back at the beginning of the day, the resource management aspect is completely thrown out of balance based on how often the party is allowed to rest up and recover. Now, you can make the argument that this is true for all aspects of resource management; an adventure in a city will provide much easier access to resources than one in the middle of the wilderness. But, there is the flip side when it comes to spells specifically, where being able to use all your spells at once without consequence will trivialize basically any challenge past a certain level. I find myself constantly in the situation where my players are trying to find every opportunity to rest after using more than half their spell slots, while I try to find contrived situations where they aren't able to safely. This is not a conscious effort on my players part either; the system innately rewards you for taking every opportunity to rest if the stakes allow for it. While this is generally solved by putting timed stakes on the line, it does limit a lot of the stories I can tell in the name if game balance.
And I think the final and most important thing to consider is simply that Vancian magic is really hard to use effectively for new players. It takes a lot of game knowledge to know what spells to prepare ahead of time and when to cast them, and thats something new players just don't know. Since D&D is a tactical game at it's core, player experience is always going to be a significant advantage. But when a character's entire ability to succeed comes from their spellcasting, not having the game knowledge necessary to perform at par with others is going to directly affect how accessible the game feels to play and how much fun a player is going to have. It feels like gatekeeping to those players who want to play a magic caster, and I have a suspicion it was probably designed for that to be the case. And I don't think it needs to be.
I brought up Pathfinder before because they did a really interesting thing in 2nd edition. For those that don't know, they effectively removed HP as a resource a party needs to manage; it is assumed the party enters every encounter at full HP. Obviously a lot of people were upset at first, but I've found this has had nothing but positive effects for my game. Now, I have direct control over how challenging a combat encounter is going to be based on the difficulty of the creatures, not by how far down the dungeon it is and how much HP I expect the party to have. Basically every encounter is a challenge in some way now, and I think that is way more fun than having a lot of trivial encounters so long as the party is able to maintain their HP due to resource management or, as it more often comes down to, the luck of die rolls that night. Without HP management, player choice and creativity plays a much bigger factor in how hard or easy an encounter is, since before it was so often overshadowed by HP totals going into it. And I still get to have resource management in game. Its just now instead of expending HP, you expend the time needed to heal that HP.
What does this have to do with spells? Well, nothing really, PF2 still has a Vancian system for prepared casters (and a strict one where you have to prepare multiples of the same spell unlike 5e). But I do think that having to manage a powerful resource isn't necessary to have the same level of fun and feeling of reward. I certainly think there should be a way to maintain the fun of resource management without it hindering the game in other ways. But, I haven't found it yet, so for the mean time I'll stick to my Vancian spells
Great summary! I always wondered about the origins of magic in D&D, and loved the named spells. Have you ever played a campaign around meeting or looking for wizards that named the spells? Or having a PC invent a new spell that gets added to the world?
My friends and I started playing with 2E Advanced D&D (apparently the revised version), and we'd rotate through DM/player roles. We did half-baked attempts at resource management, such as making sure we had a torch and rations but didn't keep track of how much (basically just "who was holding the food again?"). We'd need a place to stash our loot because we did keep track of weight, and gold was heavy.
For magic, the limited use worked out well since our time tracking was terrible. We'd basically have a couple encounters and then forget what time it was, and let that time be when characters healed and spells recovered. This made the wizard's magic useful only in specific circumstances, and the rest of the time he was using a crossbow or sling. Even when we moved to the 3.5 edition we kept this same approach, since it was mainly me doing the DM stuff and I preferred to keep things vague. We did add a house rule for more spells though: if the wizard (we only ever had 1 in the party at a time) had his spell book handy then he could cast the spell by referring to it right then, but it took 5 to 10 times longer. This made it possible to keep magic missling in combat, provided the wizard was protected for several rounds. And it meant that utility spells could be used whenever (without the need to prepare it ahead of time), provided it was in the spell book. To balance this, we kept track of how many pages were used in the book (to limit spells available), the wizard needed to find spells (not simply gain them with a level up), and the books were heavy so typically a wizard only had one at a time. Looking for new spells was something the wizard wanted to do as part of looking for more loot.
It worked out well enough, but the PC for our wizard was rarely concerned with too much power. We were more interested in finding magic items that anyone could use, or building a guild hall / stronghold and running odd jobs out of it.
A good video and a good introduction for me to your series. I have a few quibbles but they are minor.
Your enthusiasm and love of the game is great! I applaud that and thank you for it!
Good to hear - thank you! A lot of this stuff is presented through my lens of how I've interpreted information I've read (interviews, forum comments, etc.) so there are bound to be things that folks don't agree with. A few times I've misread something or left something out, but I do my best to try to cover all possible angles.
Thank you for your comments, and for watching. I really appreciate it!
I think you did fine with covering it. My quibbles are my own interpretations with how certain things came about. Thanks!
Thought I read somewhere Gary went with Vancian magic also because it wasn't connected with the real world occult.
I've been a Leiber fan for decades but I've recently gotten into Vance's Dying Earth, which is reall great stuff! It's fun to spot things that had an obvious influence on D&D.
I'm always fascinated by the game Arneson ran. The "First Fantasy Campaign" looks like a great resource for that!
Great video!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the video, and I thank you for watching and commenting!
Leiber and Vance are both great, as are most (all?) of the authors in Appendix N. I've been doing a series of posts on Instagram and Twitter where I provide a list of ~30 descriptive words common to each of the Appendix N authors to help DMs with their descriptions when they're on the spot, so they don't fall into a rut of everything being "huge" or "dark" or "cold." They're probably easier to find on Instagram, if you're interested.
First Fantasy Campaign is a fun artifact and a great peek into the game Arneson ran, but it is (to me) very unorganized, and with the limitations from 1970's typewriter layout, it's difficult to find things. Arneson also has a "unique" writing style that is very conversational and doesn't always involve the use of full sentences or of properly spelled words or correct grammar. It is really more intended as a look at "here's a look at my Blackmoor world" but written from someone who forgets the majority of his audience does not have the context or background he has in the world, so he forgets to explain things and often makes leaps of topics with no proper segue. It's not written as a guide to help someone understand and run a game in Blackmoor (at least, to me). As a result, it can be quite difficult to understand what he is saying.
Thanks again!
One passage in _The Dying Earth_ (on screen at 39:48) suggests, to me at least, the possibility that the spells in that setting aren't merely abstract formulae but autonomous beings:
'He stared down at the characters and they burned with an urgent power, pressing off the page as if frantic to leave the dark solitude of the book. Turjan closed the book, forcing the spell back into oblivion.'
This interpretation isn't strongly supported anywhere in the text, but it isn't outright ruled out, either, in my opinion. If we adopt this framework, it gives us a good explanation for why spells are "fire and forget": the entity responsible for causing the spell effect has done its job and is now released from the magician's control. Before casting the same spell again, the magician will have to force the entity back into his brain.
I love this idea of spells being almost living entities, crammed into the magic user's brain and straining to get out. After reading this comments section I would reall like to add a cast roll to magic use, allowing for more or less successful casting of the spell, it seems reasonable that if a fighter can fail to hit an orc with a sword then a magic user shouldn't be able to wrangle the fickle forces of magic with a 100% success rate.
However I'm acutly aware that I don't want to unbalance the game, if a 1st lvl mu only has 1 spell and I'm going to make them roll to see if they even manage to do that, that's perhaps a little harsh, but I'm also wary about giving them more spells as that could be bad in the opposite direction.
The idea that a spell could roll a critical at either end is pretty exciting though, and I also love the idea of these memeorised spells might sometimes get cast inadvertently, sometimes for the good (party gets surprised by a Vampire but the magic user hair triggers a polymorph and turns it into a frog!) or bad, (surprised by a bunch of ghouls the mu webs the whole party in place!).
The grocery list example was a really good explanation. I have not heard better, and I started playing with the AD&D version.
I really appreciate you saying that. Thank you, and also thanks for watching and commenting. I hope you stick around to find other videos you enjoy. Cheers!
I usually played fighters, clerics, or elves but I recently played an OD&D campaign where we had a 1st level magic user and she had some trepidation about having only one spell, but that spell was Charm Person. What comes across is that the party was more strategic and careful on approaching the Caves of Chaos. When Charm Person was used in a cultist, it was momentous. What gets missed is that original spells at 1st level are *really powerful*.
With regards to the scoring thing you mentioned, there's still some people that do similar things. For example, some, if not all, of the MCDM pre release packets for the Flee Mortals book had some scenarios with scoring systems and leaderboards for who was able to do the best.
Oh, that's good to know! Thank you!
I highly recommend supplies system from Five Torches Deep You keep track of supplies If you eat -1 supply Light a torch -1 supply cast spell -1 supply Makes it easier to keep track of supplies but still makes supplies very important
Thanks for that suggestion - I've heard a lot of great things about 5 Torches Deep and that description makes me want to check it out even more.
And, thank you for watching and commenting!
For better or worse it makes supplies a lot more streamlined. Some players I have get more confused when "1 supply" just sits in a vague hammerspace and could be anything.
Hey, do you have a video on how you run resource management? What are the constraints? I rarely manage to make it work.
I do not, but I can certainly add it to the list of potential video ideas, and also I'll chat about it in my "Campaign Prep" videos playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLX6jue56rzl2-VzZH19Ke2NU4r0IaJ7be
Eureka man. Very insightful. Scarcity, psychology, engagement, and balancing. Studying hystory and the reason for certain aspects of the game really help. Thanks for the leson! I will now have to try and act this out in my games.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I'm approaching magic like this in the Moldvay Basic game I run for my daughter and her friends, and it's working great! In almost three years of playing, I think the Elf players (there were 3 of them, but 1 moved away) have cast their spells fewer than 10 times!
@@daddyrolleda1 yea, I plan on trying something similar to see how it affects player engagement and lore. The idea of making magic more tird to resources is nice, and is kinda like one of those things where intuitively most people kind of know about this stuff but putting it in words and historic context allows us to really understand why magic doesn't feel special, or feel like something other than just a damage roll. We already do stuff like this when managing power of magic items, especially like a legendary sword of brimstone or what ever, which has lore, resources, scarcity, etc. So why I never really connected the dots can only really be explained by my oversights with preconceived ideas and stereotypes: the gamer constantly spamming abilities infinitely. Anyways, my ranty mess of a reply probably didn't make sense completely but the different ideas and perspectives really make a difference to how we play, and I am glad that I found this channel. Your lessons and collection is impressive. Sadly my dads old 1e d&d collection was dwindled due to an unfortunate roommate selling it without his permission
Thank you so much for this reply. I'm glad that my presentation and ideas are useful to you!
I'm so sorry to hear about your dad's D&D collection. That's awful! I would be devastated.
I'm not entirely sure why, but I never questioned the Vancian style of magic in D&D when I first learned about it. Somehow, it felt just fine to me. Go figure. I hadn't read Dying Earth yet, at that point. lol
I never questioned it, and I hadn't read Dying Earth (nor even heard of it!) when I first started, but I began to grow slightly disenchanted with it, especially in the face of DMs who really didn't know what they were doing. But also in reading the rules, I decided to mainly play fighter-type characters who weren't as limited (at least, it seemed that way to me at the time)!
I always appreciate you watching and commenting on my videos! And I see you got a "Top Commenter" badge! Well deserved - Cheers! And thank you!
@@daddyrolleda1 Ah! I didn't even realize I got that badge! :-D I'll wear it proudly! heh
Mordenkainen's disjunction is the perfect name for a cocktail, love it
Thank you so much! I had fun coming up with that one. Cheers!
Great Video - I like the special content at the end of the video (location, weather, and drink)... I love music, don't drink (spiritual reasons not addiction issues), and have played D&D/AD&D back in the day much like yourself. With rare exception, I find, other than myself, few people who have so many of the old fold-over staple books (e.g., Blackmoor, Gods, Demi-Gods, & Heros... my jewel is Judge's Guild City of the World Emperor (IMHO). I really enjoy your videos - keep up the good work.
I really appreciate this! Thank you so much! And I'm glad you enjoy the bonus content even though you don't consume alcohol. I did do one non-alcoholic drink once (a cold brew coffee, old fashioned-style) but I am cognizant that there are viewers who don't imbibe. I will endeavor to make that section a little more inclusive to non-alcoholic drinkers.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting, and I'm very happy you are enjoying the channel.
It depends on the game I’m running, and there are points where we forget to account for food and ammunition but those parts of the game are fun. Seeing people being clever with the spells they choose to bring in and items they buy and find is always fun to see.
Oh, for sure it depends on the type of game and the group of players as to whether or not they think it's fun, but I agree with you that watching players be clever with their spell choice is a fun activity to observe!
I find it ironic that while D&D was a resource management game that TSR was blowing through its resources. Like dredging up a sunken ship.
I love your content. I’ve been playing for 40 years and I think it’s fantastic that someone is looking at the roots of why these game mechanics exist(ed).
36:00 I usually run my games in such a way that players need to visit a "trainer" NPC to level up. It never sat right with me that sometimes you just... become stronger. You have to find someone who already knows this stuff, or dedicate a lot of downtime to figuring it out yourself. Players who learn new spells (Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards) will need to pick from what their trainer knows, which can be very limiting for sorcerers and bards in particular. It dynamically gives players the quest of "find the trainer who knows the spell I want", or "Find some hidden lore which I can use to learn the spell I want", without me having to think ahead about what spells they might want. It does disappoint players, not being able to always get fireball at 5th level, but I think it's a very easy way to get players used to setting their own quests.
I've played in several people's campaigns. Each used a different magic system.
In one you could cast any spell on the list for your level.
In another you could cast any spell you knew from your list of known spells.
In another we used mana points to cast any spells you knew. So you could cast a few higher level spells or several low level spells or mix it up. I actually have the mana formula written in my players handbook with resting time, recovery, etc.
I really do prefer that you have a list of spells you know and have to seek out new spells. Keeps mages from becoming too powerful and makes them spend money for research on new spells or information on where they might find them.
Spell books are the Achilles Heel for mages. Steal or destroy their spell book(s) and they become very limited in power. Sort of the same way a cleric must keep his faith or face the wrath of their god and be limited to only low level spells.
This all sounds really fun! I like the idea of using different magic systems depending on the group, the campaign, etc. It changes the feel of the game, for sure.
Your point about clerics and their spellcasting is a really good one. So many players forget that a cleric is a servant of a deity and the deity isn't at their beck-and-call to answer their requests for spells. If they don't toe the line, they might not get any! I do think clerics can be one of the most difficult classes to play and many players end up looking at them from a mechanical standpoint rather than from a role-playing standpoint.
May I ask what that formula for the mana is? I've been trying to come up with a mana system for my players who, and while I think mine will work somewhat well (I haven't tested it yet, but plan to implement it into my next campaign and tweak it as we go), but I've been looking for others to compare.
@@jarroddt Keep in mind that this is not mine & that I just have a couple of notes written in my PHB since we all used it.
Mana Energy: Int X Lvl then divide by 4 if Int is 8 or less, by 3 if 9-12, by 2 if 13 or greater. I also saw a notation that 6th to 9th Lvl spells cost double mana points.
I'm afraid that's all I have for you. I don't usually play mages so this was written for the other players that did play mages.
It's interesting that Gygax references Michael Moorcock's Stormbringer in all caps but not surprising. I always thought that they way warlocks got their power was especially reminiscent of the Elric Saga (basically all the magic comes from having pacts with otherworldly beings and then using mostly vocal incantation/chants that are supposed to reach that being in whatever world it lay). That form of magic could also fail based on the skill of the MU based on their own inability to perform the incantation of the otherworldly being ability or desire to heed the call. Another similarity is the exhaustion caused by these intense chants.
I've really only played old school Vampire the Masquerade and 5e D&D. I'm starting to look into other stuff now. Mostly my game group is me, my wife, and our kids plus every now and then a neighbor (not the same one each time). We tend to have particular resources the group focuses on and others the group ignores. When our characters are in scenarios where food & water are readily available, we don't bother tracking those. When I specifically did a campaign where these were scarce, we did. My wife ran a campaign based on one of her favorite fantasy stories where I ended up playing a prince (because none of the kids wanted to) and the other characters where part of the prince's retinue. So, we played it that the prince could draw on the royal treasury. As long as it was not too extravagant, money was not as much an issue in that campaign.
In a system I wrote, I had the combat be a sort of hybrid between a regular ttrpg and a card game, where everything other than basic attacks are represented with cards and need to get drawn and cost extra resources. Basically the equivalent of a spellcaster would be someone who's character has a deck full of strong cards but not much action gain (cards can take more than 1 action to use, basic attacks only need 1 usually) or card draw. While a more "warrioresque" character could be more reliant on basic attacks or have a more well balanced deck that is consistently useful instead of having massive peaks and valleys.
Alternatively, since it's for a lovecraftian/sci-fi/cyberpunk world, guns exist, and bullets are tracked because they're really expensive, but that's the tradeoff for being able to basically double dip with weapon upgrades on both the gun and the ammo, and also because ranged attacks come before all melee attacks in the turn order.
So resource management of money turns into a short term vs long term question as well, since money can buy stats or other big upgrades like getting a car, but just loading up on a bunch of various grenades can trivialize fights vs basically anything short of corporate supersoldiers or being ambushed by a group massively outnumbering you.
I am new to your channel, and found it inspiring and very interesting, as an older player, I began with D&D and the first round of rpg game, after moving to AD&D my players and I began altering the magic system and the combat mechanics till the point I developed a my own system. I have found your insightful talks about the development and history of the D&D rules and mechanic reinvigorating me to re experience my old rpg beginnings, thanks for that!
I am so glad to hear that! Thank you so much for letting me know, and for watching and commenting!
legos and resource management is an excellent comparison. well done. I hope your child is having as much fun exploring D&D as mine is. He's 15 and playing 5E and from the sounds of it they are having a ball. lol. I try and stay out of it and just let them do their thing without bringing my grognard self into it. Ha!
Thank you so much! That Lego comparison came to me one morning while I was going through the motions getting ready for the day and thinking about my next video. I thought it was as fun analogy and one I'd not seen other people make.
My daughter just turned 14 but she's been playing since she was around 10/11. It's mostly an excuse for her to hang out with friends she doesn't see at school (because they all went to different elementary schools and live in different districts), but I am totally fine with that. Anything I can do to continue to connect with her as she gets older is totally great with me!
Congrats on your child playing D&D! I hope they stick with it!
And thank you very much for watching and commenting.
Another great video, thanks so much.
I think it's super awesome the idea of having special, rare components that need to be found in remote areas and ancient tomes lost in forgotten dungeons, that function as catalysts for adventure and part of the reason why the PCs go on adventures.
You see modern games replicating or even fostering this kind of gameplay. I can think of Knave and Into the Odd (and others based on them like Cairn and Mausritter) as examples, which rely heavily on inventory (and therefore resource) management to guide the gameplay into that exploration mode, exposing the characters to risk and hard choices to then drive drama and interesting stories.
D&D is interesting with its more grandiose ambitions for later game modes, like domain level gameplay, rules for aerial and maritime exploration, etc., so it's different from those more modern games that seem to have systems & rules for a narrower spectrum of gameplay. Interesting to see as more iterations on these new games come out if they expand to cover these modes of play as well...
Thank you so much for the compliment, and for this really great comment!
It's also nice to chat with someone who is familiar with so-called "OSR" (or OSR-inspired) games like Knave and Into the Odd. I have been very intrigued by the latter but haven't picked it up yet, but I did contribute to the recent Knave 2nd Edition Kickstarter and am looking forward to getting the game in the mail soon(ish)!
Thanks again!
Yeah I remember going over and over the 1st ed AD&D rules for things like building a castle and running your own little territory. And then if that got boring there were things like Spelljammer for exploring space, and if that got boring there were several planes where reality was completely different that you could travel to.
The sky wasn't even a limit.
But those details at the start - finding the spells, getting the material components, surviving those encounters when every single one was potentially deadly at low levels, and you had to use your wits and creativity just to survive. That made it exciting and feel 'epic' right from the beginning.
If you had a good GM.
@@rascta I joined the hobby later, with 3.5, so didn't have the pleasure to ponder over Gygaxian prose describing domain level play and try to understand it. But I can imagine.
With that said, I'm happy to be living this renaissance that can distill, or at least clean up some of these systems. And often even expand them!
Maybe one day it will all be actually relevant to me at the table...
But the point about having to quest for magic (including just for the mcguffin), in particular for early character levels, has the potential and likely is relevant from the start of a campaign, or even for one-shot adventures like when to introduce new players or to teach new games/rulesets.
This is the best explanation of why DnD is built on vancian magic.
Thank you so much for saying that! I really appreciate it! And also, thank you for your support of the channel. Cheers!
Best discussion of early DnD magic I've seen recently.
I really appreciate that! Thank you so much for watching and commenting to let me know!
Absolutely great video. I really enjoy and appreciate the amount of research you put into your channel. Thanks
Thank you so much! And, I appreciate you taking the time to watch, and then to also leave a comment. It really means a lot to me.
Thank you!!!
I really love the LEGO Bricks analogy! Having limits on something always leads to creativity.
Thank you so much! I thought of that analogy one morning while on my walk and didn't recall if anyone had made that analogy before. But, I do hear a lot people saying that resource management isn't fun for kids, and I think it's only not fun if it's presented as not being fun. It's the same as new foods: if you say, "You're probably not going to like this," then chances are, they won't!
Resource management is so often presented as a penalty instead of as a fun part of the game. "Oops... you're out of arrows. Haha!" and no one finds that to be fun. But planning a trip through the desert can be one of the most amazing sessions if done properly.@@daddyrolleda1
Love your point of view here! Have been thinking about how to make spells something that needs to be found. Do you also do roleplaying for leveling up? Would love a whole video about your spells-as-worldbuilding approach.
Ooh, "spells as worldbuilding" could perhaps be a fun topic. I will add it to the list!
I used to dig a little more into roleplaying for leveling up, but these days I'm a little looser about it. In my daughter's game, each of the PCs has a "superior" (the two elves are being trained by a Witch at the Keep on the Borderlands to learn how to cast magic; the cleric has a superior in his church; and the Thief has high-level contacts in the Thieves' Guild). So, narratively, I explain that's how they learn their skills when they advance in level (which is not frequent... we've been playing for about four years [but only 27 sessions over that time period] and the two Elf PCs are only 2nd level!).
For the Elves specifically, they receive their spells from the Witch, so I control which spells they have access to. It's all about what "The Witch" (so... me) wants to give them. I've taken their input before but right now their spells are really not all that powerful - one Elf knows Read Magic and Ventriloquism, and one knows Hold Portal and Charm Person (probably the most powerful, but she's afraid to cast it because she knows that the subject of the spell, once it wears off, will be aware that they were ensorcelled).
Thanks for watching and commenting!
When I run my homebrews my spells either require mana points or lots of time and components, I agree that resources are important in trpgs.
Thanks for the great video
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it.
There's nothing more to add. Great explanation on the reasoning and the history of the game. I'm subscribing to your channel.
Thank you very much! I really appreciate your support and look forward to chatting with you here in the comments. Cheers!
I prefer he Palladium magic system, it is a spell point system and has 15 +1 levels of spells and if you know the spell(no matter what level), and have the points, then you can cast it! Spells cast from 1 to 5000 points!
Agreed, a much more believable system.
My only experience with the Palladium system is via the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness game, but as far as I know, it uses the same base mechanics.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
Interesting point about younger players taking to resource management, it’s a mechanic that’s been baked into so many video/app games. The resource management stuff older players may find overly detailed and tedious, kids that grew up on Minecraft and stardew valley accept as part of gameplay.
You're the second person to mention Minecraft in this context, and I really like that analogy. I've never played it (I don't really play video games) but based on what my daughter explained to me after this came up, it makes sense. Thanks!
Love the videos so far! I am glad you are utilizing this platform the way I believe it was intended.
I'm really happy to hear that! Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
I really liked the search for a lost tome idea. I was thinking that the tome could include a few high powered spells that the players could scribe to their own tomes. Later you talked about naming a spell after a random wizard. and I thought like, well perhaps within this tome you could find the sorcerer who wrote the tome's twist on certain spells? which your players could scribe to get a light boost to their spell. basically like an upgrade, something small like a +1 damage or something.
I am a very big fantasy person, and I generally like when there's a lot of magic, and when it's not a scarce resource to be carefully managed. I personally think that "Magic is rare and you can only use a little bit of it" has been done to death over the years. I can definitely see the appeal of having very few, but powerful, spells and I understand why some people would prefer that, but for me I have reached a point where I really enjoy Magic being a tool - a fantastical and visually impactful tool, but one nonetheless - that is on a semi-equal footing to Martials. Not because Magic has been reduced in power, but because if you're a lvl 13 Fighter who can outwrestle a young dragon and kill it single handedly, then you're quite a few steps above the average person, and stand equal to the person flinging fireballs around.
This is, mostly, my thoughts when it comes to games. I like playing Mages of all kinds, because it allows me a lot of freedom in narrating for my character, and giving visuals for what I do. I don't just "cast Magic Missile", I "move my sword in an arc above my head, leaving behind a series of small silvery orbs. I then point at the gnoll and mutter 'en garde', before the orbs shoot forward towards the target." I am less good at finding ways of making martial attacks visually interesting.
That said, when it comes to stories I read, my taste in magic systems is a bit different. Here, I really enjoy it when they're relatively simple. You can't do a lot of fantastical light shows that blow up buildings, but you can do maybe 3-5 different things, that ideally would rely on a resource of some kind. So you could push & pull iron, or apply gravitational force to yourself in different directions than down, transmute material, or make things come alive to perform tasks for you. Relatively simple things, with clear rules and limited in scope, but with incredible versatility if you are clever about it. If you hadn't already guessed, I am a huge fan of Brandon Sanderson and how he does magic. I think it's a wonderfully interesting way of doing it in stories, but in games, I am quite fond of D&D 5e, because it lets me use it as a tool that I can use more than twice per day, and lets me live out all those childhood fantasies I have of being a true magician.
I genuinely disagree with you on a very fundamental level about how magic should work but your presentation was amazing and I will be subscribing and looking at more of your content, Daddy.
... saying it out loud, I can see where that went wrong.
I am very happy for people to disagree as long as they are cool about it, like you are! Thank you so much for subscribing - I really appreciate your support.
And yes... back when I started my blog (Daddy Rolled a 1), I hadn't considered the impact of folks chatting with me on social media and what they would call me. On Twitter, folks usually refer to me as "Daddy-O" or some just call me DRA1.
"Martin" also works!
Outside of the actual role-playing, resource management is THE core of fun & interesting campaign sessions. However, I do feel like magic-users need more spells so they can "contribute" more.
By the way...your videos can NEVER be too long. I hate that I don't have a new one to watch every night before work.
Here is one of the ways that magic users can be more useful and contribute more. Finding spell books.
Think about it. Every mage needs one. Whether it be their full spell book or a traveling spell book with just a few spells in it. So any time you slay a rival mage or raid their lair, look for those books. You can use them to copy into your spell book or you can use those spell books like scrolls.
This is such a wonderful compliment. I really appreciate it! Thank you!
I really agree that resource management can be a fun and interesting (and creative!) part of a campaign, but I chat with so many gamers who disagree (both old-timers and new gamers).
I think part of the (forgive the pun) "charm" of magic-users is them, at early levels, only having that one spell per day and having to figure out "when do I cast it? Is this situation the right time, or will things get worse today?" And then after that, what can they do to contribute to the party? Sure, they have a dagger, but are there any other clever things they can do to add to the adventuring party? That's a great opportunity to someone who loves to roleplay and to think out of the box!
@@CaptCook999 I *love* the "adventure to find lost tomes of magic." Interestingly, in B/X D&D, per the rules as written, unless you have the spell "read magic," you can't read someone else's spellbook, and even if you do have it, you can't use it to copy those spells into your spellbook unless you have "slots" available (e.g., you've advanced in level but haven't learned a new spell yet). It's very different from AD&D rules for using spellbooks! But I"m considering being a little more lenient in my game. It hasn't really come up yet, because the only two magic-using PCs in my game are both elves, and their only 2nd level, so they each only know 2 first-level spells. Only one of them knows "read magic."
@@daddyrolleda1 yes, I understand about needing read magic. But you can know several spells if your intelligence is high. So all you need to do is get the ink and copy the spell or spells into your book. The cost of ink would be minimal for low level spells.
And those 2 Elves could trade spells with each other. Then they would both have read magic. Original D&D didn't have too much information about it but it would be a standard to find spells and copy them into your own book. And if you already have that spell then you should be able to use it like a scroll. And once you use read magic on it you don't have to do it again to read the spell.
Oh, and as far as mages being more useful. A gnarly carved staff could make people think that it is magical. So then a mage could use it as a bluff. "I'll blast you to bits with the power of my Staff of Stars". Then use a little shiny dust to add to the effect. And if they have Phantasmal Force they could make it look like meteors are flying from the staff. Now people will believe you are even more powerful than you are. Little tactics like that are what makes low level mages seem like Wizards of the Highest Order!
Interestingly, for whatever reason, B/X doesn't allow for increased knowledge of spells based on high INT. Only your class level determines how many spells you know, and therefore how many spells are in your spellbook.
For example, my daughter's character (and her friend, also an Elf) is a 2nd level elf so they each know 2 first-level spells. Even if my daughter's character (who knows Read Magic) finds another first level spell (say, in someone else's spellbook), she can't copy it into her spellbook because she can only know (and "have") two first level spells.
It also doesn't allow the copying of spells from scrolls, also due to the limit on how many spells can be in your spellbook. It's oddly much more restrictive than AD&D (I think to just make it easier - you only have to refer to one table to know how many spells you can have in your spellbook and how many you can learn/cast per day).
The next time they'll be able to learn another 1st level spell is at 7th level. It would be interesting to have my daughter's character teach her friend's character "Read Magic." I hadn't thought of that! Great idea!
Love the tricks and ideas for a mage being more useful! FANTASTIC! There was a really fun article in one of the issues of KNOCK! magazine called something like "What to do as a 1st level magic-user when you've cast your one spell." It was funny but also super creative and really made me think that the limitations are really more based on player creativity!
I liked your shopping list analogy for retaining spells: a relatable way to explain the reasoning to newcomers.
I really appreciate that! It's gotten a bit of "pushback" from folks who have made some decent arguments as to why it's not a perfect analogy. In hindsight I think I could've explained it better. That's sometimes the price I pay for talking off the cuff and not scripting my videos. I either forget stuff or don't always articulate my points as well as perhaps I could have, but I think the trade-off (from what I've been told) is that I sound more natural and conversational and many folks seem to like that.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
One thing I really should have done with the last group I've played with was having physical props or cards for the resources to be managed. Easier on something like Roll20 (where you can just copy and paste), but still reasonable for tabletop (print 1- to 2-inch icons and paste them to card stock or poker chips). I had poker chips for HP, which very quickly inspired a Ralph Wiggum "I'm in danger" impression. But only the experienced player really understood "I have this proficiency but not the relevant item," and even they kind of ignored the other resources in their starting kit until one of the new players saw a burning barrel of oil and said "wait, lantern oil burns, right?"
When I first started playing D&D I was heavily into the resource management. I started with the standard character sheets but then added more and more details on loose leaf paper. I ended up have complete inventories of my characters' homes, what they would bring along on adventures, snd what they actually brought into the dungeon.
Eventually I found that I could stresmline the game for the benefit of my morevcasual players. The first thing I did was eliminate the XP calculations. Instead, I just decided on how fast I eanted to characters to level, and awarded XP based on actions, like that Tournament example. Gold income, as well ss other resources were also eventually assumed. If one of my players wanted to build or construct something, I just told them approximately how much gold they jad saved up. If they wanted to produce some unexpected resource I just considered the odds of them having the foresight to bring it and had them roll for it. If they failed the role, they'd have to go back for it or send a henchman.
I never liked the fire and forget system, it never made sense to me, but I couldn't think of anything better. I think I finally settled on a system where words have power, and discharged energy when spoken, but each spell casting was subtly different and it never worked twice. You had to spend the time preparing snd rehearsing the spell ahead of time, and if you tried to cast it again, it would fizzle.
I also required my players to find their spells before they could cast them. Players could share spell books, but they started with common spells and had to seek out the rare ones.
NB: Martin, my understanding is that Vance encouraged Gygax to use any idea in his fiction. E.g. "ioun stones" appear in the Dying Earth novels (I have the same edition you show) and are EXACTLY as they appear there in D&D. The Prismatic Spray spell IS used in D&D. However, D&D's "Time Stop" spell is also in Vance but with a different name. On the other hand, JRRT's estate sent cease and desists to TSR regarding Hobbit, Ent, and Balrog. It seems to have miffed Gary and colored his opinion, understandably.
This was extremely insightful and gave me a whole new outlook on gaming, especially why some modern gaming feels like it's missing a dimension (resource management). Thank you for this analysis! I'm going to be doing a lot of thinkin' on this.
Great video and an excellent discussion of the magic system.
I'm so glad you enjoyed it, and I really appreciate your comments and your support. Cheers!
Great video...
Recently, as in the past two years or so, I've found that something really appeals to me, at least conceptually, about Older Editions of D&D... Maybe as the time passes and I am seen as more and more of the Old Guard, as it were, compared to these newer generations of TTRPG players I have simply turned my eyes to the past and seen kindred spirits... Or maybe I would simply just like the games if I would give them a shot.
But in lieu of this I instead substitute the experience with RUclips content like yours and Bandit's Keep. It is nice and there is something, I want to say nostalgic, about seeing how these books are laid out.
It reminds me of when me and my brothers, having never heard of TTRPGs, tried to remake the Elder Scrolls games... But on paper. Yeah, good times.
Sorry, it is late here and I ramble when I am tried. I don't think I ever got to the point: I liked the video, it provided me with new information and enlightening discussion of a topic that is very dear to me. If you've read this far, my bad.
My main experience with resource management style D&D games usually ends with the bare basics of :
Food (Druids get stuck with Good Berry)
Water (Druid.cleric get stuck with create/destroy water)
Setup camp (wizard gets stuck with tiny hut till they upgrade it for mighty fortress)
The DM is quite limited in to making things matter when a lot of spells simply snap their fingers and make it a nothing burger.
Mind you its not impossible by a long shot. Though i'd like to hear your spin on these kind of issues that simply nullifies a great survival adventure by ending up limiting player spell slots.
Where as spell resources i have a whole different issue as they are horrible unbalenced and atleast a quarter were simply put in as an after thought.
Cleric spells suffer the most simply due to not the cost but the rarity of items.
Ceremony which is a massively underated spell for RP for instance requires powdered silver.
You can get silver easy but grinding it in to dust is something far more dificult to come by unless you have a Goliath barbarian hanging around.
There are many more that have these issues in the cleric spell book where as druids and wizards have it far easy.
If you want to implement resource requirements for spells as a DM you should be prepared with exotic items unknown to the region or end up ruining the game for a player.
These are all really good points. I do think it depends a bit on which edition you're playing. Resource management does tend to be easier to run in earlier editions of the game, partially because the rules are written to support (and even promote) that style of play.
In 5th Edition, resource management is much less of a concern, partially because the edition was designed with the context that many players don't *like* resource management, so having spellcasters with unlimited cantrips and also with powerful 1st-level spells like Goodberry, as well as most character types having darkvision, do tend to make it more difficult to make resource management a key element. I do think it's interesting, however, if a game *wants* to focus on resource management but the players don't want to track rations, Goodberry then becomes a "spell tax" on a Druid; they are expected to cast it every day to provide food for the party. So then in that way, you're back to spell preparation as an element of resource management: is it worth it for the Druid to spend an entire spell slot each day for food, when the party could just buy supplies?
I think my approach would be to discuss with the players ahead of time and let them know the kind of game you'd like to run, and get their input to make sure they're on board. If resource management is *not* something they think would be fun to deal with, then at that point I think I would just hand-wave it and assume they were prepared accordingly (my whole "adventurers are competent" argument I've brought up before on the channel) and not force the spellcasting players to "waste" spell slots on stuff like that.
(Mind you, I'd hope the players would come around to realizing that playing the resource management *can* be a lot of fun if they give it a chance).
The material components for spells are not consistent, for sure, but that's something I tend to modify as a DM. In the version of the game I play (1981 Basic D&D by Moldvay), the spells don't even have material components, but I introduced them anyway, as I like the roleplaying aspects it adds to the game.
@@daddyrolleda1 Ow yeah its just a thing DM's have to account for.
I've ran a dungeon where the barbarian rolled a 1 trying to close the door causing a cave in and then the fighter of the party simply shruged and said we have a druid and cleric we have nothing to fear from being stuck in a laberinth of passage ways without any means of food or water. Turning navigating the dungeon more in to a slog then a plight of desperation for resources to maintain the party. Mind you this is the same party that has had issues with a halfling player rerolling 1s because that would take away interesting things from happening. It always cracks me up when i stumble on players like that.
Any time the expedition uses magic to solve a mundane problem, it means they will have less magic available when an exceptional or risky problem shows up.
But you could use certain spells to let a group cross a desert relatively easy. But whenever you have a run-in with anything from some hyenas to a desert dragon flying overhead you will have less magic. Each day you have -2 spells, including the day they got the drop on you. Sometimes I toss in encounters with people who are a bit scruffed or have used their spells for other things. Like a wizard who has used two level 1 spell slots, but he has two Charmed gnolls along.
WFRP used a lot of varying ritual items. Sometimes you just need a small silver bell you ring each time you use a spell, sometimes you need to crush a jewel each time you cast. All these things are stuff enemies can frisk you for. When you want to meet a gang boss, her goons will try to frisk you for both hidden pistols and spell components. Then you can surrender that little silver bell or that bag of guano, or try to hide it somewhere.
@@SusCalvin Eh, in a different campaign i had a gnome noble that ended up eating one of his servants in his private tent and the party wondering how he wasn't starving. This you can have fun with as a DM where friends relatives ending up putting missing person posters etc. The noble resolved it by planting the clothes on a group of cannibal lizardmen. It was a fun thing that ran in the background of a campaign but one single berry resolves all that and you don't want to restrict a party by going down the list of "banned spells" or bleeding or stealing their resources. Its one of those things that bug me as to how they didn't think certain spells are terrible mechanicly in a resource game setting.
Thinking back on it, I think the Ultima series ended up using a magic system close to Blackmoor's. Where you mixed spell component's before hand and each spell had a limited number of uses. The more powerful spells had less uses IIRC I haven't played Ultima 4 in a while.
You might be right! I have to admit, I was woefully unknowledgeable about video games, so I never think to mention them in my videos. Thanks for sharing this insight! And, thank you for watching and commenting!
Very few early D&D spells are "fire&forget". Magic Missile is the only one I know that tracks the enemy and cannot be evaded.
Most spells need to be targeted but can be avoided to some extent.
Now memorization (better thought of as charging a template) and forgetting on cast (better thought of as finishing/releasing the prepared charge) are another thing.
The downside of the memorization/preparation sequence leads to most situational spells being ignored unless there is time during adventures to prepare custom spells.
That is why many other systems used either spell slots or total mana to limit casting, but didn't limit the casting to only pre-prepared spells. Runequest used a mana limit of a characters Power stat, with spells being limited to a character's Intelligence in readied spell levels (changeable by meditating at 1 level per hour), with more powerful spells using up more capacity. This worked well, especially since there were no classes or levels and all characters used magic (frontline characters specializing in combat assist magic and healing, and back line specializing in ranged magic and healing, with at least 2 having healing 6 to reattach severed limbs)
Warlocks actually are in 3.5's Complete Arcane supplement and Eldritch Blast is actually basically the class's cornerstone feature. It wasn't actually a spell though, merely a spell like ability. Warlocks didn't even get spells properly. Instead they got a limited number of Invocations which were at-will spell like abilities.
Thank you very much for the correction. I have Complete Arcane and I knew the Warlock debuted in that book, but I never played (or DM'd) one, and I'd forgotten they also had Eldritch Blast.
I think my overall point still stands, though, in that, starting with 4E, *all* arcane casters were given things they can do without needing to "recharge" them after use ("At Will" powers in 4E, Cantrips in 5E). It's an expectation and a specific design philosophy to give arcane casters something they can do every round, equivalent to a martial class swinging a weapon each round. Doing that removes the resource management part of magic-use.
Thank you for watching and commenting! I really appreciate it, and I hope you enjoyed the rest of the video.
@@daddyrolleda1 a fun class that's never been brought back since 3.x's Dragon Magic supplement is the Dragonfire Adept. It was basically "What if Warlock but draconic instead of vague powerful entity?"
Probably wouldn't be TOO hard to port as an "expanded subclass" to the 5e Warlock. (Expanded subclass as in it would also include some feature replacements in addition to the normal subclass bits for the class)
That is such a great way to look at it. I think there's a *LOT* of stuff from previous editions that could be used in a 5E game, sometimes with very little effort. I use stuff from 1E, 2E, 5E, and sometimes 3.5 in my B/X game all the time! I don't use 4E stuff as I'm not super familiar with the mechanics, but I do like to reference the 4E DM Guide, which I think has great advice and inspirational stuff to use regardless of edition.
My explanation for every setting I have DMed.
> Magic pours from Chaos.
> Spells are creatures from Chaos.
> Spell books are MK Ultra conditioning to allow mortal minds to think out-of-the-order. Wizars study those books so they can entramp those spell-chaotic-creatures in their minds.
> Spell casting makes Wizards to release those spells in a "safe" way. Released spells try to return to their native planes, and they affect reality in the process, the effect of that warping is what we call "magic effect".
> Since the spell is no longer in Wizard's mind, he needs to repeat the process.
Brilliant! This is a really fun and creative interpretation of the D&D magic rules! Thank you for sharing, and also for watching and commenting!
@@daddyrolleda1 Because of this process I developed several tables for failed spell casting; under a certain d% due to Wizard's level and spell level or tier, then I came to a d20 chart as in DCC. And consequences were funny. Palladium RPG had a very different approach, one not making the spell book a must-have.
Great video. I agree on resource management adding flavor. However, when we played 1E I could never talk my players into playing a caster because of how weak they were at the start. We pretty much ran all melee builds as a result
Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
I've always tended to gravitate toward martial/melee classes myself for whatever reason. I think part of it might be somewhat akin to Gary Gygax's preference for martial classes, because they were the heroes of the fantasy fiction he read as inspiration. I grew up reading stories about King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and also Greek Mythology, and none of the heroes/main characters in those stories were wizards. And then, as you point out, magic-users in early D&D are very weak at early levels, and back then I wasn't a clever enough player to be able to handle that!
@@daddyrolleda1 nowadays is different of course. The casters are super powerful. However I now prefer rogues (arcane trickster,) style builds. Thank you!
for me the fun of table top rpgs is improvisational acting and interactive story telling. these elements arose kind of as unintended byproducts of what was a competitive war game and resource management game, but many systems now have simplified or eliminated those aspects in favor of tools to create story beats, relationships and even personal inner demons.
I understand why they had limited spells and limited usage in first edition, but in retrospect, it’s kind of a mess. The Wizard gets to cast one spell, and then he’s essentially done until the party goes back to town to rest for the night.
Thanks for these discussions. It’s really interesting to look at the complicated systems. We put up with in first edition. Everything is so much more streamlined now, and definitely makes more sense. I remember trying to explain how all the different things worked in the first addition to my players back when we were kids in 1980. There was no logic, there was no standard rules, it just was and you needed to learn it.
Everyone is a bit crappy at level 1. Give a fighter a hit that removes 4 of their 6 hp, and they will also start talking about retreating to the rear.
One way if a campaign really wants to skip the level 1 grind is to start at a slightly higher level. Everyone on Athas in Dark Sun immediately starts around level 3 just from growing up on Athas. When you give a starting PC xp equivalent to a level 3 fighter, that should let you play a level 2 wizard who isn't too far from level 3. Level 3 is when the game starts to tip over for an m-u.
Interesting history behind the early D&D magic system. However, I'm not sure how the term "fire and forget" fits as the distinguishing characteristic of Vancian magic. My understanding is that this refers, typically, to either a type of guided weapon that, once fired, does not require further guidance, or (more generally) any activity that can be started and then left to complete itself.
I agree partially with resource management. I like to play without checking for things that are common sense to buy. They always have arrows and components for basic spells.
Special arrows, bombs, high level spells, etc require them to buy ingredients. I've played aorund with having players drop some gold everytime they're in town, so they have basics as long as they have gold.
For spell components, it's a difference of the magic system when I run a game. I primarily think of magic as an economy of energy: how much you can channel, how much your body can withstand moving through it, and your ability to control what you channel. When I run a game, my magic system is more like running circuitry and programming than it is in normal DnD.
As far as using materials, like rope, the group determines that in session 0, and I leave it to them to be honest if they decide to monitor resources like that.
Limitations generate creativity. Likewise in arts, like fx composing music: If you start out defining restrictions for yourself, you'll more often end up with something new and different.
That's such a great way of looking at it!
Thank you for watching and commenting!