"Dave Chappelle was just joking about not knowing what punching down means!"
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- What's the big deal with jokes premised on rhetoric that further marginalizes trans people? Good question, check these out:
- Experiences and Factors Associated with Transphobic Hate Crimes Among Transgender Women in the San Francisco Bay Area: Comparisons Across Race. Gyamerah, A.O., Baguso, G., Santiago-Rodriguez, E. et al. (2021). BMC Public Health 21, 1053. bmcpublichealt...
- “Passing” and the Politics of Deception: Transgender Bodies, Cisgender Aesthetics, and the Policing of Inconspicuous Marginal Identities. Billard, T.J. (2019). In: Docan-Morgan, T. (eds) The Palgrave Handbook of Deceptive Communication . Palgrave Macmillan, Cham. www.researchga...
- Transgender Polyvictimization in the U.S. Transgender Survey. Messinger AM, Guadalupe-Diaz XL, Kurdyla V. Journal of Interpersonal Violence. August 2021. pubmed.ncbi.nl...
- Effects of Humor and Bystander Gender on Responses to Antigay Harassment. Katz J., Federici, D. & Brown, D. (2022). Journal of Homosexuality, 69:6, 947-966, www.tandfonlin...
- Fatal Violence Against the Transgender and Gender Non-conforming Community in 2021. Human Rights Campaign. Retrieved June 17, 2022, from www.hrc.org/re...
"But," you say. "You didn't even prove with facts and logic that Dave Chappelle is a bad person, why don't you like him?"
⬋ ⬋ ⬋
This isn't about whether I like or dislike a person. I don't care whether Dave fits the category of 'bad' or 'bigoted' or 'transphobic' because that's not important. If you clicked this 29 second video expecting a detailed discussion of the issues that are raised by Dave's work, that was a bit of a misstep. But I can help you out and direct you to Jessie Gender's 'The Complex Transphobia of Dave Chappelle' • The Complex Transphobi... and Kat Blaque's 'Watching Dave Chappelle's Full Special, Before Criticizing it...' • Watching Dave Chappell... . You can listen to people give extremely detailed explanations about why comedy is not immune from other speech in furthering bigoted ideologies, and you can learn and read about the extremely real pain and suffering inflicted every day on people because of these ideologies. It's really not that complicated and I invite commenters to open themselves up to the blatant logic of criticizing Dave's recent lazy work.
And let me add, to the several people commenting that "punching down" implies the targeted group is "down" and "lower", and these commenters are just ever so egalitarian in their perspective, so they would never view a group as "down"! Nice logic trick people but I am not convinced/fooled. The argument against punching down obviously doesn't involve claiming trans people are "worse" or "lower" in any way, other than in terms of sociopolitical power in the status quo of most societies nowadays. Dave was punching down because he was speaking (lies and misrepresentations, actually, if you look into it) about a trans fan of his ending their life, and he blamed it on harassment Dave alleges (falsely and without evidence) that this person received from the trans community. He blamed a trans person's death on trans people with no evidence, when this person was suffering for so many other reasons that could have been cited. ( • Dave Chappelle Narrate... ) One might argue that Dave was wrong to even be discussing it, because it's not his place. This is not me limiting his free speech, it's me expressing mine, and saying he was morally wrong to say many of the things he said. You also need to understand that whether you found all his other jokes about trans people's genitals funny or not, currently trans identities are under siege from the state like you have hopefully never experienced with any aspect of your identity, person reading this. (archive.is/ymrmb) I hope you never have to experience anything like this, but that's not an excuse to remain ignorant and passive in the face of the widespread targeted use of power against a minority group.
Oh, and his 'Space Jews' joke conflated Jews with Zionists. It was blatant unless you don't understand anything about Judaism and Zionism. It is a profoundly antisemitic trope to conflate Jews with Zionists. The bit was unfunny, but more importantly its antisemitic premise was clear. And again, for people who struggle to grasp this concept: I'm not calling Dave Chappelle antisemitic, because I don't care whether he is. The joke was. And that's what he's sending out into the world that actually influences others' ideologies and behavior.
![[Limbus Company - Teaser] Season5 - Oblivion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8anKuEeZLeI/mqdefault.jpg)
jessie gender has a good video analysing this special from a trans perspective called "the complex transphobia of dave chappelle", highly recommend it (and all her other works)
Yeah f*ck Jessie Dave's a riot.
You'd hope that someone from one oppressed group would know to feel a bit of sympathy for other opposed groups but sadly that's not the case here
All Davids want to be Goliaths.
Actually more than a few black feminists have articulated that black men cling to cis heteronormativity and patriarchal values as a means of maintaining what they feel is the limited power and superiority they have (so not completely dissimilar to how white folks get mad when minimal progress is made in terms of civil rights)
@@sidremus you know there are trans black people, right? like, you're aware of that? right?
@@chickenx777 sure I'm aware of that. what about them?
@@ladygrey4113 lol
Sad when wealth and privilege lead ppl to lose sight of others. But it can happen to the best, maybe because wealth itself isn't all it's cracked up to be.
based not transphobic what's therapy???
I dont get it. there are layers of things wrong with this. first off Chapelle makes fun of himself, me, you, everything. You know this when you watch him. If you don't like it why do you watch. If you are not looking to laugh why watch. If you can't laugh at yourself why watch. If i don't like the prices in a store I don't shop there. I don't ask them to close the store. Second how are gays powerless. My brother is gay and it seems he has more rights than i do. Didn't gays get Kevin Hart to quit the Oscars over a joke he told years ago. How is that powerless. So you are telling me it is ok for them to attack a comic because they don't like his joke, but he cannot use them as a topic of humor. Again who has the power here. Who is running things. Not the comic thats for sure. As a side note it is foolish to think you are going to attack Chapelle and not be a target. Nobody had a problem when his jokes were about blacks, lots of em. Nobody had a problem when his jokes were about whites, lots of em. What makes Trans, or women, or others off limits. He jokes about Mexicans ,Jews ,chinese and on and on. You know this when you watch him. If it bothers you why watch him. He can make fun of me any time he wants. Because he is funny as hell. Seems like groups today want to control people. Live your life well and let it go
Because Chapelle is an incredibly influential person in conservative groups, and as they are our opposition who are generally the largest proponents of our marginalization, we must understand and dismantle these arguments to prevent harmful ideas from being accepted.
@@Zephyr_UhhYou act like conservatives are sitting around scheming about how to put trans people down, lol. I have a number of friends who I talk to who come from many different political beliefs. The only ones who even bring up trans issues are the generic white liberals.
I understand that the media in this country likes to load up a bunch of silly social issues and trendy political points into a bipartisan system and bat them against each other like ping pong, but please dont fall into the easy trap of thinking that everyone who doesnt believe the same things you do are out to get you. Or for that matter, are fundamentally aligned against you.
Buying into this only helps promote division and feeds into the feedback loop that continues to incentivize the media to continue their dumbed down, crowd pleasing drivel causing consumers to reflect that distorted portrayal of reality.
I am worried that the segregation of ideologies that the modern world creates is genuinely ripping our society apart. I would like more understanding in people, or at least an attempt to understand.
More than your sound argument, your visual rhetoric (is that a thing? It's a thing now) is top shelf.
I was hoping I could see some insightful videos as I love your BCS analysis, but a little disappointed because you don't like Dave Chappelle.
I've seen his shows and I don't think he hates trans people, but I'm sorry if he's not your cup of tea.
Harmful ideas don’t necessitate hate. I don’t care what Chapelle’s personal feelings on any given group are. He’s a stranger and those things really don’t matter. But the promotion of these ideas can cause harm and this has been seen with many of Chapelle’s fans and supporters attempting to commit harm with things like harassment, incitement, and bullying.
A comedic master can punch down and but you still understand their not trying to attack you. This kind of comedy often is used to get people to think, question, and can even bond people together. Although I will say some don't use for good and others have trouble understand that humor and might take it wrong.
They puch down on themselves with similarities so we understand were not much different.
Dave really fell off
Nah.
@Psychometrics just because he's still successful doesn't mean he's not a dick for punching down at the trans community
Still not making a case for what punching down is. He has money and status, roughly equating to power, and he's telling jokes about people who, individually, have less money and status, roughly equating to power. There's a money and status, roughly equating to power, imbalance... okay, but is that the full sum of the point? The same point will be true for virtually every person or group of people he tells jokes about. This group is more marginalised, has less cultural power (relative to their percentage of the population this is a laughable premise, but whatever), so now it's punching down? Is there a case for why even that would be inherently wrong? We could list any number of groups of people who exist on the margins, and have MUCH less cultural power, but would this concept of punching down apply to them? Bronies? Therians? Mormons? Trekkies? Why is this group uniquely sensitive?
Perhaps the idea is instead that its wrong to devote so much time to a group that is so small, and malicious to question their ideas when their ideas only affect themselves. But, the definition and interaction with gender is not the sole property of the trans community, is it? It's relevant to, and effects, literally everybody, and this definition and interaction has been very publicly wrestled with of late - making it seem like a pertinent vein of material for a topical comedian to use for their comedy. Especially because in the core of this material is the disparity between the struggles of the black community and the struggles of the LGBT community, and the appearance of white people problems taking much greater precedence in society than black people problems, which might be why it's particularly affronting to Chapelle to be told by privileged white people who expect the world around them to actively validate their personal sense of identity, and lynch those who do not, regardless of physical reality, that he is punching down on them when he takes issue with their greater cultural power in the media than the much longer standing plight of black people in America. Just some thoughts.
no cap
Although you might be underestimating the struggles of the trans community, I think. Refer to the description of the video.
Bronies? Therians? Mormons? Trekkies? Bruh. None of those are comparable to the trans community (who are also populated with black people and Latinos and many other races so not just white people). It's crazy how people denounce identity politics then bring up fan groups and a misogynist religion to debunk oppression of actual people that have 100s of laws debated over that will affect their right to live.
I'd also like to point out Dave said he was team TERF and sided with Rowling on trans issues. Ya know, the person who promotes a group that calls trans people pedophiles, rapists, and predators every day online while pushing for laws to make sure they can't exist (I doubt you know any of this). This isn't just about being called the right pronouns. It's about anti-trans groups wanting to ban trans people for having personal identities that don't conform to fundamentalist religious norms. It's about people speaking out against violence and hatred against them for daring to breathe.
This comment is so out of touch with reality it's hilarious and terrifying other people think this way because they never care to learn about the experiences of people who are different. I doubt you'd give it a chance but Contrapoints did a video about Rowling and goes over the whole conservative debate over trans people. Again. It's not just about proper pronouns.
Punching down is a nonsense term created by internet leftists to try and tell people who they’re allowed to joke about. That’s it.
I have an honest question, and this is the only question I'll be asking as it is the single only question that is meaningful: Did you even watch this comedy special in it's entirety?
If you answer no, I have no fucking words to say.
If you answer yes, honestly than I'd have even lesser motive to talk to you.
Triggered?
@@Jiyoon02Congratulations, that was the perfect combination of words to convince me you aren't triggered.
Actually, can we psychoanalyse the idea that making fun of Trans people is always specifically punching 'down'? Have we established that Trans people are, as a rule, 'down'? There aren't any successful trans folks floating around..? Even just in their own right? At all..?
And what is this position of privilege that is bandied about for Dave? Is it that he's successful himself? Because by that metric, the only people he can 'punch' (an odd choice of words, but fitting in the age of 'words = violence') would be, who, billionaires..? Hundred-millionaires? (Plus all white people lol... ?)
So instead of jokes about literally EVERYONE on Earth being free game, including ourselves, (some of us, presumably, being trans people), we have to consign our laughter and our jokes only to those who sit above us in some material, or otherwise, sense?
Oh, what joy.
Anybody that has actually seen any of Dave's specials would know he 'punches' just about everybody - up, down, and around - leaving very few 'group' or 'identity' stones unturned. And his 'punches' tend usually to carry with them some force of moral questioning and societal commentary, all be them soaked in his particular brand of humour. Wouldn't it then, given that, just be exclusionary not to have our Trans not-brothers and not-sisters in on the big joke..? (The big joke being that crazy little thing called Life)
Come on, alphabet people... Have a laugh why don't ya.
(Or just flag the comment and have it sent to the ether with all the other stuff that makes you unjustifiably unhappy)
There's a difference between making a joke about a specific person versus making fun of a broad class of people.
People have a responsibility to consider the consequences of their actions. As the links in the description demonstrate, making jokes about trans people provably causes material harm in a way jokes about other groups might not (though, maybe making fun of broad classes of people is not the healthiest form of comedy even disregarding material consequences)
I'm all for jokes however the particular joke that got him in trouble was pretty unsavory and lacking any of that nuanced social commentary that he usually carries. It was essentially along the lines of "Woah thats a penis xDDD" which regardless of how he justifies it isn't a sound idea to be spreading to such a massive audience. People are much more than the organs that make them up.
I truly believe people can make jokes like these in ignorance and mean it as just a joke, not understanding exactly what they're saying or why its bad, but that is an explanation and not an excuse.
(People acting like trans people are props for a stupid joke is a very justifiable reason to be unhappy)
@@camoweed_ As opposed to anyone else being a prop for a joke..?
I don’t disagree that some jokes are offensive, but I’m certain that if you comb through Chapelle or any other prominent comedian’s resume, you’ll find unsavory and offensive jokes aimed at just about everyone, including themselves. Making fun of people, for whatever reason, is very much a part of comedy, if not a part of life.
Besides which, none of that addresses either his or my own point, which is that: why are trans folk considered ‘down’ by default? Or more down than anybody else? That’s what he’s saying he doesn’t understand.
In a larger sense I would say the broader point is that this whole concept of ‘punching down’ is arbitrary, and contextual at best, if not down right nonsensical.
If Caitlyn Jenner makes a fat joke, is that punching down..?
@@zebulunashcroft6623 it feels like you're playing dumb
@@zebulunashcroft6623 what a yikes take
Dave chappelle is the king of comedy, change my mind. Awesome clip bro, weird captions though. I just tried to look past them
Wow post the full clip or not at all… I miss being able to see dislikes because of ridiculous videos like this… get a life
I’m pretty sure there’s a plug-in that restores the feature.
I completely don't understand how this special was offensive. It wasn't funny at all (I think he used the punchline 'Space Jews' more than once, and it was funny neither time) but I don't get why people feel bad about themselves after watching it. That is the nature of being offended - feeling bad. It's not just that you perceive 'punching down' (which should be entirely allowed as long as it's funny) that offends you, it's that you feel insulted. Who did Dave insult in this special?
Edit to add, punching up is a giant dogpile to the point that it has zero comedic punch anymore. Another joke about rich people being bad for having more power than you? Orange man bad, perhaps? How about instead of writing off jokes for involving disadvantaged people, we accept jokes when they're funny and don't accept them when they're unfunny?
Is because the trans comments werent real jokes, it was just "trans people are so triggered lmao, you cant tell a trans person that women with penises are wross lol, this days you cant white knight lunatics like J.K. Rolling without being called a transphobe", not to mention Dave is always claiming to be "persecuted by the woke mob", when in reality he is making literal millions of dolars out of his special.
Agreed
Humour is fine. It's when you use it to quite an underepresented minority that it becomes a problem.
@@reecethe I disagree and that’s not what Dave did, and you meant to spell quiet
@@seymourpant oh no for sure that's not what Dave did. It's people in the past who've done that, just like the people who did blackface. What Dave said may not have been in that same spirit but it echoed the same ignorance.
he should've leave it up to trans comedians to tell those jokes because they have the experience to inform the jokes.
Dave used the experience of being a racially marginalised black man to inform his blackface sketches and stand up material. Their all gold because he used his intellect and experience to write them.
That intellect and experience is absent on this subject (at least as far as the jokes can allow us to gleam)
Thanks for the spelling correction (legit 😂)
"Comedy doesn't punch down" spoken by people who have bad comdey routines or don't know how jokes work and dark humor. Humor doesn't care what way it punches.
regardless of ones opinion on the topic of this video I believe the consensus would agree this is a pretty shitty video 👎
Why do you have to be so political with it? It’s always privilege this, masculinity that with you. Dave’s a comedian, you’re a RUclips psychologist. Stay in your lane
Please feel free to let me know who is qualified to discuss the subjects of masculinity and privilege, in your opinion.
I found this channel because I wanted to hear what someone's experience was like watching Breaking Bad *after* Better Call Saul. I hadn't expected some of the most nuanced, insightful, entertaining and quite frankly just generally impressive series of video essays I've ever seen. And this? You are wonderful. That's all.
I know this video is old at this point but based on these comments I'm glad Whats Therapy posted this to root out all the ignorant Dave Chapelle fans that mightve been subscribed
Yeah, I found this video after discovering What’s Therapy recently
I was also ignorant to the Dave Chapelle situation
Dave’s the goat you just can’t hack it. Step aside and let the king himself through
If you cannot laugh at yourself you should not watch certain comics. The best thing that can happen for any group is to have Chappelle joke about it. Sometimes the best way to open a conversation is through comedy. Say what you will but Chappelle has brought more attention to your movement than 10 years of whatever you are doing
It’s on the whole been the attention of those who would seek to further the marginalization and discrimination of trans people, rather than actually have a dialogue and complex conversation.