I had 2 wonderful teachers before college and during my years at Manhattan School of Music, but missed out on learning about avoiding tension in playing octaves and all that you explained in this video. I’m still teaching at 80 yr. and can still learn new ideas, so thank you very much!
Dennis, I'm not a classical pianist but I really appreciate your videos about technique because no matter what you're doing, it still matters, and I try to tell pro musicians about it.
Found the video while I was searching for ways to ease my pain and tension when learning to play Moszkowski etude op 72 no. 9, which is mainly an octaves practice etude. I had not much prior experience in playing fast octaves. Your video really, really, cleared my mind on grouping octaves with wrist movements. Thank you very much for this.
Excellent video! I'll add that in many scenarios, we need legato octaves, and if we cannot or do not want to use the right pedal, we achieve this by using the 4th (and if large enough hands, the 3rd or even 2nd) fingers of the RH for the upper voice. My approach is to practice the upper voice in legato very slowly, listening as intently as possible that the legato and phrasing and dynamics are being achieved solely with fingers, and only gradually increasing the tempo. Whenever I work on a piece with particularly difficult octave passages, I will add Chopin Op 10 No 2 back into my practice routine to strengthen the confidence and independence of the weak fingers of the RH in playing legato, as it always helps tremendously. I practice the thumb separately as it is cannot truly be legato but nonetheless should be as close as possible. Combining both voices, and then adding the LH (or RH as the case may be), has to happen only after mastering the voices apart. I like your comments on the proper wrist technique very much and will add only that a tiny bit of rotation of the elbow can also often help relieve tension by speeding the wrist through its rotation--however we have to be careful not to introduce too much elbow motion as it can quickly mess up other aspects of the mechanics. The elbow basically speeds up the wrist rotation so we experiment to find how much elbow is really needed, if any. Slow practice is always important but particularly with very fast octave passages, it is also necessary to include faster tempi in practice because multiple octaves (especially at the top or bottom of a passage) might need to be played with a single smooth and very fast motion of the wrist, whereas doing the same single motion won't work at slower tempos. Definitely a lot to consider! Thanks again for the video.
This video on Octaves brings to mind the Octaves with middle notes at the end of 1st mvt of the Grieg Concerto in A minor (Percy Grainger arrangement for solo piano). I have never been able to play them without tension. I shall try your techniques on that. Thank you.
Where have you found the sheet music for this arrangement? I've been searching high and low, ready to buy, but I haven't found it still. Many thanks in advance for any prompt!
I am lying here trying to copy your wrist relaxation. I am doing very well thank you. Now can you tell me how to stop the tension invading my upper arms and shoulders instead 😂
After a good meal I want to sleep, and as soon as I wake up I am hungry again! Eternal problems😂 If seriously, an unnecessary tension is in most of the cases is a reaction on the lack of stability where it is supposed to be, for example in the metacarpal bridge. You might want to check the newest video on octaves where I address this topic in more detail.
I love it. ))) Maybe for some viewers it might be interesting if you could write a comment from where selected passages were taken? Schubert's Erlkönig (used by Lizst as well) may be known to most and you mentioned the piece. I hope to play it in future. I noticed that relaxing wrists requires to also relax the whole body, especially shoulders. Unnatural tension anywhere expresses itself one way or the other. So, I am working on it... Thank you for this and all lessons.
Thank you so much Denis your tecnique is amazing and you explain so wonderfully!!! I actually have been thinking to take online course from you but I have romatoid in my hands and whole body. I saw a doctor and I have been taking medication for treatment. I also have carpal tunnel on my right hand but your videos helped me to loosen those immensely tightened hand- wrist-finger muscles. I have been working to loosen them so patiently for 2 months. After my treatment ends I would like to contact you for private online course🙏🙏😊🌟🍀 Thank you so much for you helping us with your wonderful videos. I highly appreciate all of your brilliant explanations😊🙏🌟🍀😊🙏🌟🍀🌺
I have the feeling that no matter how much I practice relaxing my hands for the right hand octaves of Skrjabin op 8 no 12, I always have too much tension. I can play it slow and it feels relaxed, I practice it at speed and I have wrist pain for the day. Really frustrating...
There are two most possible reasons: 1. You play in a quick tempo differently then slowly, while the purpose of playing slowly is to find the most efficient way to move, and gradually(!) speed up, preserving same comfortable sensations. 2. The piece might be generally above your current level, and you’d need to acquire a solid foundation in order to be able to approach it. It’s important to consider that pieces like this one are on the very top of the professional piano repertoire, and they are relatively easy to master only for those pianists who learn piano professionally (which usually means they do nothing else in their lives😂) from a very young age.
What about the repeating octaves like Cziffra is doing? He is doing what you suggest on this video with his wrist and he alternate between fingers 4 and 5. I guess your hand need to be big enough to be comfortable enough to play with 4 and keep your wrist and hand relaxed. What do you think about that technic?
What an amazing channel! (and player!) Thank you very much for this. This is probably the best video I have encountered about octave technique. A thing I couldn't understand: In an octave passage (e.g. a non-forte scale), what is the function of the wrist? is it completely relaxed and passive and all the action is coming from the fingers, and then it just bounces up and down due to plucking the finger tips from the bottom of the keys to propel you to the next octave, or: is it the wrist that initiates the motion down and actively tapping the octaves? Thanks again!
Thanks for a nice feedback! Regarding your question: I am afraid there is no just one answer (at least for me). Wrist movements are often important to release tension: so we use them for 'unifying' movements (e.g. four octaves with a movement slightly up - another four slightly down) in order to group octaves, and this helps to rest a bit and release the tension between groups. I try to analyse now in detail about what you asked, and I think it depends on the tempo as well: if the tempo is slow the wrist really may "lead the way". But in a more fluent tempo it executes a more "supporting" role as described before. It's hard to avoid tension in some crazy passages, therefore it's important to know exactly where are your release points in the passage.
@@DenZhdanovPianist Thank you so much for taking the time to answer. My question was a bit convoluted but you still managed to provide a helpful answer. I wish you great success with this channel, and I think more people will appreciate this content. Thanks!
Denis, i think its really helpful if you practice with “loose lazy hands “( i call it dead hands 😀) not only octaves but all kind of techniques like chords, arpeggios or scales but really close to keyboard … do you agree?
@@puranchand27 I hope I have correctly understood what do you mean; if yes - then my personal way of playing piano is to avoid unnecessary finger movements in general. I explain more on that in the Fast Tension-Free Playing video, you might wanna check it out!
Thanks) Learn them in smaller groups releasing the wrist between groups, make proper gaps between groups in order to release the hand, and then gradually make these groups longer, like only 3 octaves at first, then 5 etc. Each group is played within one wrist motion - down/up.
I am just ten days into playing and practicing after a gap of many decades. I was never actually taught how to play octaves. My fingers are fairly long, but my fifth fingers are short. In practicing octave scales is acceptable to connect some octaves using the third and fourth fingers on black keys or is one only supposed to use thumb and fifth fingers only while going up and down the scales?
Best technical advice and demonstrations on the web
I had 2 wonderful teachers before college and during my years at Manhattan School of Music, but missed out on learning about avoiding tension in playing octaves and all that you explained in this video. I’m still teaching at 80 yr. and can still learn new ideas, so thank you very much!
It's wonderful when someone can still be interested in their profession at 80. You must be a wonderful teacher.
Excellent, the best octave video I have seen.
👏👏👏your last performance!
Dennis, I'm not a classical pianist but I really appreciate your videos about technique because no matter what you're doing, it still matters, and I try to tell pro musicians about it.
Thank you kindly🤍
Found the video while I was searching for ways to ease my pain and tension when learning to play Moszkowski etude op 72 no. 9, which is mainly an octaves practice etude. I had not much prior experience in playing fast octaves. Your video really, really, cleared my mind on grouping octaves with wrist movements. Thank you very much for this.
Really happy to hear that! Good luck!
THANK YOU SOOOOOO MUCH FOR THIS YOU💯‼️👏🏿👏🏿I really got a GREAT understanding of playing octaves in TOTALITY‼️
Excellent video! I'll add that in many scenarios, we need legato octaves, and if we cannot or do not want to use the right pedal, we achieve this by using the 4th (and if large enough hands, the 3rd or even 2nd) fingers of the RH for the upper voice. My approach is to practice the upper voice in legato very slowly, listening as intently as possible that the legato and phrasing and dynamics are being achieved solely with fingers, and only gradually increasing the tempo. Whenever I work on a piece with particularly difficult octave passages, I will add Chopin Op 10 No 2 back into my practice routine to strengthen the confidence and independence of the weak fingers of the RH in playing legato, as it always helps tremendously. I practice the thumb separately as it is cannot truly be legato but nonetheless should be as close as possible. Combining both voices, and then adding the LH (or RH as the case may be), has to happen only after mastering the voices apart. I like your comments on the proper wrist technique very much and will add only that a tiny bit of rotation of the elbow can also often help relieve tension by speeding the wrist through its rotation--however we have to be careful not to introduce too much elbow motion as it can quickly mess up other aspects of the mechanics. The elbow basically speeds up the wrist rotation so we experiment to find how much elbow is really needed, if any. Slow practice is always important but particularly with very fast octave passages, it is also necessary to include faster tempi in practice because multiple octaves (especially at the top or bottom of a passage) might need to be played with a single smooth and very fast motion of the wrist, whereas doing the same single motion won't work at slower tempos. Definitely a lot to consider! Thanks again for the video.
Very helpful! Thank you!
Wish I had seen videos like this years ago!
Great video, and great performance by you.
This video on Octaves brings to mind the Octaves with middle notes at the end of 1st mvt of the Grieg Concerto in A minor (Percy Grainger arrangement for solo piano). I have never been able to play them without tension. I shall try your techniques on that. Thank you.
Where have you found the sheet music for this arrangement? I've been searching high and low, ready to buy, but I haven't found it still. Many thanks in advance for any prompt!
You are amaising you play so great!! And those tecnique tips helped a lot thank you!!
Denis,THANK YOU SO MUCH for Tchaikovsky example! Im learning it now,so i can now practice octaves correctly! Я кстати,тоже русский) 😊
Thanks
… Well… nobody is perfect! 🇺🇦
@@DenZhdanovPianist 🇺🇦❤👍
gosh that's such an awesome channel
Veryyyyyyyy helpful
Thanks
Great advice!!!
Maestro lei è straordinario. La ringrazio accoratamente!
Amazing tips, I just learnt a scriabin prelude with rapid fortissimo octaves so this will help a lot!
Great!
Fantastic, thank you so much!
Very nice set of instructional videos you've made. May I suggest creating a video about the dreaded double notes technique (especially double thirds)?
Thanks! Will keep in mind, you're not the first who asks😉
I am lying here trying to copy your wrist relaxation. I am doing very well thank you. Now can you tell me how to stop the tension invading my upper arms and shoulders instead 😂
After a good meal I want to sleep, and as soon as I wake up I am hungry again!
Eternal problems😂
If seriously, an unnecessary tension is in most of the cases is a reaction on the lack of stability where it is supposed to be, for example in the metacarpal bridge. You might want to check the newest video on octaves where I address this topic in more detail.
I love it. ))) Maybe for some viewers it might be interesting if you could write a comment from where selected passages were taken? Schubert's Erlkönig (used by Lizst as well) may be known to most and you mentioned the piece. I hope to play it in future.
I noticed that relaxing wrists requires to also relax the whole body, especially shoulders. Unnatural tension anywhere expresses itself one way or the other. So, I am working on it...
Thank you for this and all lessons.
Roland Huettmann Schumann Toccata op.7 and Tchaikovsky Concerto 1 mov3
Thank you so much Denis your tecnique is amazing and you explain so wonderfully!!! I actually have been thinking to take online course from you but I have romatoid in my hands and whole body. I saw a doctor and I have been taking medication for treatment. I also have carpal tunnel on my right hand but your videos helped me to loosen those immensely tightened hand- wrist-finger muscles. I have been working to loosen them so patiently for 2 months. After my treatment ends I would like to contact you for private online course🙏🙏😊🌟🍀 Thank you so much for you helping us with your wonderful videos. I highly appreciate all of your brilliant explanations😊🙏🌟🍀😊🙏🌟🍀🌺
Thank you for a sweet comment, and I wish you fast recovery!❤️🩹
@@DenZhdanovPianist Thank you so much dear Denis and you are very welcome😊🙏🍀❤️
I have the feeling that no matter how much I practice relaxing my hands for the right hand octaves of Skrjabin op 8 no 12, I always have too much tension. I can play it slow and it feels relaxed, I practice it at speed and I have wrist pain for the day. Really frustrating...
There are two most possible reasons:
1. You play in a quick tempo differently then slowly, while the purpose of playing slowly is to find the most efficient way to move, and gradually(!) speed up, preserving same comfortable sensations.
2. The piece might be generally above your current level, and you’d need to acquire a solid foundation in order to be able to approach it.
It’s important to consider that pieces like this one are on the very top of the professional piano repertoire, and they are relatively easy to master only for those pianists who learn piano professionally (which usually means they do nothing else in their lives😂) from a very young age.
Excellent tips as always!
Watching from outer space 10/10 😼
D thanks!🤓
What about the repeating octaves like Cziffra is doing? He is doing what you suggest on this video with his wrist and he alternate between fingers 4 and 5.
I guess your hand need to be big enough to be comfortable enough to play with 4 and keep your wrist and hand relaxed.
What do you think about that technic?
What an amazing channel! (and player!) Thank you very much for this. This is probably the best video I have encountered about octave technique. A thing I couldn't understand: In an octave passage (e.g. a non-forte scale), what is the function of the wrist? is it completely relaxed and passive and all the action is coming from the fingers, and then it just bounces up and down due to plucking the finger tips from the bottom of the keys to propel you to the next octave, or: is it the wrist that initiates the motion down and actively tapping the octaves? Thanks again!
Thanks for a nice feedback! Regarding your question: I am afraid there is no just one answer (at least for me). Wrist movements are often important to release tension: so we use them for 'unifying' movements (e.g. four octaves with a movement slightly up - another four slightly down) in order to group octaves, and this helps to rest a bit and release the tension between groups.
I try to analyse now in detail about what you asked, and I think it depends on the tempo as well: if the tempo is slow the wrist really may "lead the way". But in a more fluent tempo it executes a more "supporting" role as described before. It's hard to avoid tension in some crazy passages, therefore it's important to know exactly where are your release points in the passage.
@@DenZhdanovPianist Thank you so much for taking the time to answer. My question was a bit convoluted but you still managed to provide a helpful answer. I wish you great success with this channel, and I think more people will appreciate this content. Thanks!
Hi, i really struggle to find answers on whether i should use the fourth finger on black keys for octaves or still use the pinkie instead
Denis, i think its really helpful if you practice with “loose lazy hands “( i call it dead hands 😀) not only octaves but all kind of techniques like chords, arpeggios or scales but really close to keyboard … do you agree?
Sure; but tips of the fingers need to be focused at the moment of the hit nevertheless
Sir , Awaiting your presentation on resolving 4th Flying Finger Right Hand & 2nd Finger of Left Hand 😍😍
What exactly do you mean by that?
@@DenZhdanovPianist Sir , When playing Keyboard these fingers fly idle resulting decreased efficiency .😍😍
@@puranchand27 I hope I have correctly understood what do you mean; if yes - then my personal way of playing piano is to avoid unnecessary finger movements in general. I explain more on that in the Fast Tension-Free Playing video, you might wanna check it out!
Amazing video! Can you play op.10 no.1 Chopin please
Mingze Li ruclips.net/video/_JOonVTnkuI/видео.html
Denis Zhdanov thank you!
😲😲
Does the same apply when you have to use 3rd and 4th finger as well, for example in Chopin Ballade no.1?
In general, rather yes since those are universal tips, but I’d need to look at a specific spot to say for sure
My wrists hurt while playing 32nd note octaves (Vivaldi summer "storm"). What can I do? You are incredibly skilled btw
Thanks)
Learn them in smaller groups releasing the wrist between groups, make proper gaps between groups in order to release the hand, and then gradually make these groups longer, like only 3 octaves at first, then 5 etc. Each group is played within one wrist motion - down/up.
@@DenZhdanovPianist thank you!
I am just ten days into playing and practicing after a gap of many decades. I was never actually taught how to play octaves. My fingers are fairly long, but my fifth fingers are short. In practicing octave scales is acceptable to connect some octaves using the third and fourth fingers on black keys or is one only supposed to use thumb and fifth fingers only while going up and down the scales?
A standard fingering for octaves: 1-4 on the black keys and 1-5 on the white ones. But for those who have large hands, 1-3 is also used frequently
@@DenZhdanovPianist thank you!
👍
What are the names of these pieces you played? Sounds amazing
Some spots from Schubert/Liszt Erlkönig, Schumann Toccata, Tchaikovsky Concerto 1
User-friendly options 🤣👍👍👍
May i know what piece was that at the last part of the video? Thank you!
Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No.1
@@DenZhdanovPianist thanks so much! And thank you for sharing your tips and techniques!
Reminds me of LIszt -- no music, just octaves played very fast and loudly!! And real Exercise/Etude.
Even throat gargling might be music, put in a necessary context!😉