I’d argue that this already happened like 5 years ago when Smash Bot dropped and destroyed everyone. It didn’t have a reaction delay, so it would just powershield or shine everything and consistently 4 stock top players. That’s basically what happens when a top chess player plays against Stockfish. However, Smashbot wasn’t very useful for players because it was so good that you couldn’t get realistic practice (like any good engine today) It’s more like when players started using the first major neural network chess engine Leela to find more “human” ideas or continuations
@@knowk5737 that’s true, though I didn’t say Smash Bot was an AI. Deep Blue and all chess engines until AlphaZero (2017) and Leela (2019) also weren’t AI
@@Mecinimi I get your point, but the thing about early chess engines is they didn't do things a human *couldn't* do. Unless we're talking about chess engines playing blitz and just having instant speed. You could still see "Ah, this is how I'm supposed to counter the X Sicilian variation". Smashbot wasn't bad practice because it was "too good", it was bad practice because it's literally impossible for a human to play like that. Nothing you learn from fighting it is even slightly useful, because it's playing a totally different game than we are.
@@SmokePuddingits from a marvin gaye and mos def mashup on youtube, its the first yasiin gaye mix. The whole thing is sick i recommend listening to it all
I'd be really curious what human limitations have been put on the AI. Does it have a human reaction time (input of screen is delayed by reaction time or whatever?). What is even the interface that the AI is reading? Can the AI discern indiscernible animations as soon as they start (or after its reaction time), this would be un-humanlike. Can the ai consistently line up exact ledge cancels etc.? Not saying these additions would be beneficial but as the ai gets better they could help add a more human like practise partner.
It has, apparently, 15 frames of simulated reaction time. Not much else is known about how it works at the moment, but I think it depends on the specific AI agent being used at the time. (Some can have 12 frames or 18 frames of reaction time instead). I've heard some mixed reports of the AI possibly adapting a little to you as you play it, but there's no direct evidence for this - so it's hard to say. Could possibly be a placebo because you're obviously going to be doing and timing your moves slightly differently every time, which will influence how the AI responds to you. Even if you're technically doing the same thing over and over. The creator's hardware that the AI is running on is also admitted by the creator themselves to be "limited", so having the bot constantly learning and adapting seems like a bit of a stretch given that fact.
I want to clarify a little about the other answer, especially since I've talked with x_pilot a few times and asked questions. All Philip agents are currently 18 frame delay. It was originally 12 and then 15 IIRC, but those agents are gone now. Philip sees, at the core, character positions and what move frame they are on (IE Jump(3), Jab(5), whatever). Nothing is visual. I am likely forgetting some small things it sees (Randall position for one). Yes, a current flaw is that it can not distinguish between humanly-visible and non-visible animation frames. Talked with x_pilot a little about this, and he said he's considering adding a delay to specific animations where this exists. (IE Puff grab that's invisible for like, five frames) I can't remember exactly how its input works. At least during training, in order to learn it will have X% chance to input something random, as that's how it finds new strategies and such. I do not remember if there is some amount of "fuzzing" to the inputs to make them imperfect once it's actually playing, or if it retains the X% chance to "mess up" an input. Since the other person mentioned adaptation, I am fairly sure it is not possible right now. Certainly not with the core way that the AI trains to get better. When an AI trains, it is doing it over a LOT more games than a human is. Despite the AI likely getting better than us at some point, it requires exponentially more training time than we do. It's actually a good thing that it can't read though, otherwise it would just read the hell out of us by tracking every single pattern we have. And Daigo for example mentioned that relying on reads is bad anyway, that a solid gameplan and execution is just better. And as for mixups, I'm not sure if Philip can do anything except the "best" option. This is fixed in language models by using a "temperature" to grab an option close to the best, but not the best, output. Idk if Philip can do this.
@@FortWhenTeaThyme melee is a mixed strategy game (look it up), so there is not always a 'best' option and some positions simply require some sort of 'read' to make the most out of. Granted, some options should be chosen 'more often' than others (that's how a mixed strategy works). It would be interesting to know if the bot is always picking the option with the highest weight, as that would lead to a flawed & exploitable playstyle. I guess that seems unlikely though?
It’s crazy but sadly I agree with Zain that he shouldn’t send in his files. I do think it would be good for the masses obviously, but Zain is so far and away the best Marth in the world and his play style is so singular that I can’t fault him for not wanting to give away the keys to the kingdom. Kudos to Cody for doing it tho
@@KaxMergI assume slippi files for the AI to model off of, I'm not positive though and I don't have any knowledge in how this works, but that's my best guess
@@Coolbeans554 I mean it’s a personal choice for the player at the end of the day. While I do think Cody has a unique playstyle, I think Zain has more to lose by basically uploading his playstyle so that everyone can train against it.
This was wildly entertaining, good shit Zain 😄 back in the day, people would have to cheese the bots but now top players can keep up with and adapt to them in real time 😄😄 melee’s insane
@@vladfi1 true. Sometime in June or a bit later Cody had played the AI, and was impressed by it so then he had sent x_pilot his slippi files. Now we have this Fox that’s basically Cody.
I can't help but find hax to be vastly much more enjoyable to watch, probably because he does the true end-game tech stuff that just dismantles the entire cast. The "perfect" normal fox is just the ultimate version of Armada in the end anyways.
Hey i'm kinda newish to playing Competitve melee although i've watched melee for like 8 years now I do main marth can you Zain give me a practice guide please
Why don’t Marths ever use the downb reversal? I know it’s slow but if you have him off stage with no route back except through you, the downb seems so safe, no?
The thing is, some pros will try to find the perfect angle up a slope like Yoshi’s or FoD (with spacies), and if this happens, the Marth counter won’t do anything, and they’ll get punished for it since it’s so slow.
What’s interesting about this? Genuine question. We already had a TAS level AI years before this. Philip just looks pretty human compared to the other one
say it back phillip
🤣
it back phillip
Phillip is a bad loser
8:24 "I can read Phillips habits! You're an AI, but you have a soul." The download is complete
woahhhh i knwo you from the game and watch discord
@@trxgreder woah, I like, know you too from the game and watch discord
Gnw discord plague
10:58 then that happens
This line goes so hard
LMAO "it's cody with more swag" was crazy to say about an AI
The combo starting at 16:46 was insane
my mouth was wide open
he really said "I'm fucking feeling it" and then immediately did that
This is why Zain is the goat and it's not close
This is what 112 generations of amiibo training does to someone
philosophers: do ais have souls and is it wrong to make them work
melee players: oh good you have a soul *i can read you*
Actually funny that melee is going through the same process as chess in the 90's
I’d argue that this already happened like 5 years ago when Smash Bot dropped and destroyed everyone. It didn’t have a reaction delay, so it would just powershield or shine everything and consistently 4 stock top players. That’s basically what happens when a top chess player plays against Stockfish. However, Smashbot wasn’t very useful for players because it was so good that you couldn’t get realistic practice (like any good engine today)
It’s more like when players started using the first major neural network chess engine Leela to find more “human” ideas or continuations
@Mecinimi you're right on everything. Those comparisons are actually more accurate, well done man
@@Mecinimismash bot wasnt really AI
@@knowk5737 that’s true, though I didn’t say Smash Bot was an AI. Deep Blue and all chess engines until AlphaZero (2017) and Leela (2019) also weren’t AI
@@Mecinimi I get your point, but the thing about early chess engines is they didn't do things a human *couldn't* do. Unless we're talking about chess engines playing blitz and just having instant speed. You could still see "Ah, this is how I'm supposed to counter the X Sicilian variation". Smashbot wasn't bad practice because it was "too good", it was bad practice because it's literally impossible for a human to play like that. Nothing you learn from fighting it is even slightly useful, because it's playing a totally different game than we are.
zain’s always got good shit bumpin for tunes
For a marth player
Does anyone know the name of the first song in the video
@@SmokePuddingits from a marvin gaye and mos def mashup on youtube, its the first yasiin gaye mix. The whole thing is sick i recommend listening to it all
@@SmokePudding ruclips.net/video/a5c952hF2EM/видео.htmlsi=tvh0kk0b2ry721PA
@@b.onlinereal
Philip? Nah that's Code Schwab
lmao
Calling Phillip Cody is probably the biggest compliment Zain could give
"With more swag" don't forget.
@@enmanuel1950😂 the bot is Cody with more swag
Always interesting to see pros play this bot - appreciate you posting these so consistently!
Thank you! We can't lose these sick moments.
smoked_em the TAS goat
🫡
@@itsbmeGaming
We NEEEEEED a top players vs ai crew battle
16:39 this combo was f*cking sick
When AI inevitably wakes up and takes over, Zain is Philip's first target.
Nobody but Zain could so calmly confront an extreme melee AI
16:46 was nuts
Zain was the storm that was approaching lol
Phillip is my favorite fox
Feels like onstage Phillip is crazy but off stage he is a griefer
Thats just marth v fox bro phillips recoveries are good
Zain just started doing new shit like it's the hyperbolic time chamber
The only good use of Ai: make Marth players scared again
Fyi song at 3:30 is time by yasiin gaye (amerigo gazaway)
I'd be really curious what human limitations have been put on the AI. Does it have a human reaction time (input of screen is delayed by reaction time or whatever?). What is even the interface that the AI is reading? Can the AI discern indiscernible animations as soon as they start (or after its reaction time), this would be un-humanlike. Can the ai consistently line up exact ledge cancels etc.?
Not saying these additions would be beneficial but as the ai gets better they could help add a more human like practise partner.
It has, apparently, 15 frames of simulated reaction time. Not much else is known about how it works at the moment, but I think it depends on the specific AI agent being used at the time. (Some can have 12 frames or 18 frames of reaction time instead).
I've heard some mixed reports of the AI possibly adapting a little to you as you play it, but there's no direct evidence for this - so it's hard to say. Could possibly be a placebo because you're obviously going to be doing and timing your moves slightly differently every time, which will influence how the AI responds to you. Even if you're technically doing the same thing over and over.
The creator's hardware that the AI is running on is also admitted by the creator themselves to be "limited", so having the bot constantly learning and adapting seems like a bit of a stretch given that fact.
@@KaiokenBlueGT ah ok thanks for that
I want to clarify a little about the other answer, especially since I've talked with x_pilot a few times and asked questions.
All Philip agents are currently 18 frame delay. It was originally 12 and then 15 IIRC, but those agents are gone now.
Philip sees, at the core, character positions and what move frame they are on (IE Jump(3), Jab(5), whatever). Nothing is visual. I am likely forgetting some small things it sees (Randall position for one).
Yes, a current flaw is that it can not distinguish between humanly-visible and non-visible animation frames. Talked with x_pilot a little about this, and he said he's considering adding a delay to specific animations where this exists. (IE Puff grab that's invisible for like, five frames)
I can't remember exactly how its input works. At least during training, in order to learn it will have X% chance to input something random, as that's how it finds new strategies and such. I do not remember if there is some amount of "fuzzing" to the inputs to make them imperfect once it's actually playing, or if it retains the X% chance to "mess up" an input.
Since the other person mentioned adaptation, I am fairly sure it is not possible right now. Certainly not with the core way that the AI trains to get better. When an AI trains, it is doing it over a LOT more games than a human is. Despite the AI likely getting better than us at some point, it requires exponentially more training time than we do. It's actually a good thing that it can't read though, otherwise it would just read the hell out of us by tracking every single pattern we have. And Daigo for example mentioned that relying on reads is bad anyway, that a solid gameplan and execution is just better. And as for mixups, I'm not sure if Philip can do anything except the "best" option. This is fixed in language models by using a "temperature" to grab an option close to the best, but not the best, output. Idk if Philip can do this.
@@FortWhenTeaThyme thanks for the detailed input!
@@FortWhenTeaThyme melee is a mixed strategy game (look it up), so there is not always a 'best' option and some positions simply require some sort of 'read' to make the most out of. Granted, some options should be chosen 'more often' than others (that's how a mixed strategy works). It would be interesting to know if the bot is always picking the option with the highest weight, as that would lead to a flawed & exploitable playstyle. I guess that seems unlikely though?
8:17 LMAO
This is me playing the level 8 bot as a kid (I didn’t dare even try the level 9)
This is such a sick project
I know I'm a Marth main cause I said "boom" at 12:35 half a second before Zain did :D
And you find the same sex attractive
What i learned from this video: Cody plays like a bot
It’s crazy but sadly I agree with Zain that he shouldn’t send in his files. I do think it would be good for the masses obviously, but Zain is so far and away the best Marth in the world and his play style is so singular that I can’t fault him for not wanting to give away the keys to the kingdom. Kudos to Cody for doing it tho
what files are you mentioning?
@@KaxMergI assume slippi files for the AI to model off of, I'm not positive though and I don't have any knowledge in how this works, but that's my best guess
@@NATE-bz7mx Yeah, that's it
So Cody shouldn’t have done it either then, this is the same shit hbox did but on a smaller scale.
@@Coolbeans554 I mean it’s a personal choice for the player at the end of the day. While I do think Cody has a unique playstyle, I think Zain has more to lose by basically uploading his playstyle so that everyone can train against it.
This is the first time I’ve ever seen a Melee AI that actually plays somewhat like a human… This is a VERY impressive AI.
6:40 hawk TUAH
I wonder if Phillip knows that he is playing THE Zain
Why he would do that? Its just a bot that is pretty good at melee right?
@Jokeynno what
@@Spookieissick what?
it looks like hax lol with those random nair approaches etc
18:33 Marth makes me sick to my stomach
ZAIN PLAYING MARVIN GAYE IS SO FUCKIN PEAK
This was wildly entertaining, good shit Zain 😄 back in the day, people would have to cheese the bots but now top players can keep up with and adapt to them in real time 😄😄 melee’s insane
The AI could NOT handle the slanted ledges (match start 8:39). He missed every edge guard, and messed up his own recoveries.
Urine sample melee
Should have taken him to Dreamland at least once, to play on all the stages.
anyone have track ids for the whole video???? all of the tracks are bangers
This is giving Magnus vs Stockfish vibes
Dude... Hes so good.
I need this playlist Zain is cooking with
whats the song at 13:35?
plz @itsbmeGaming lmk
and i know it’s not just two words by kanye and mos def it’s a different instrumental in the back
Zain playing anti-computer Melee
Combo at 16:46 went crazy.
Are there any other AI to play against? Like one for Falco or Marth etc?
@@Mistabojangles yes. Currently there’s Samus, Falcon, Peach, Yoshi, Marth, Fox and Falco.
15:38 LMAOOO
Anybody know what version of hurricane is playing in the background starting around 2:50?
Does tha AI read inputs or look at the screen? Does it have 12-15 frames of resction time coded in?
Plot twist, this AI was built with Cody as the template
It was
@@vladfi1 true. Sometime in June or a bit later Cody had played the AI, and was impressed by it so then he had sent x_pilot his slippi files. Now we have this Fox that’s basically Cody.
Drop the spotify playlist pls
12:50 whats this song its gas
Great, now AI is stealing my hobbies too 😂
15:36 WHACHU KNOW ABOUT THAT PHILLIP?!!
How does a layman like me get to play phillip (im gonna get my ass beat)
On Twitch, go to "x_pilot" and type !help and it'll show you how to enter commands to play the AI.
Combo at 16:46 “I understand it now” moment 😮💨
bro look like he got a durag on
“Worse Cody” is saying stuff.
song at the beginning?
I never noticed this before, but the reverb on characters voices in Melee is so distracting 😂🎉
ITSBEME?!?!? YOU'RE BACK?!
@@enversiddiky4106 I never left!
Bro I wanna play this thing, I once played a TAS bot couple years back and took it to last stock last percent like 2 games
I can't help but find hax to be vastly much more enjoyable to watch, probably because he does the true end-game tech stuff that just dismantles the entire cast. The "perfect" normal fox is just the ultimate version of Armada in the end anyways.
What is this first song?? 😮💨
Yasiin Gaye - T Plays A Cool Loop feat. Andy Flory (Prod. Amerigo Gazaway)
Hey i'm kinda newish to playing Competitve melee although i've watched melee for like 8 years now I do main marth can you Zain give me a practice guide please
Kodorin got one 🤺
Why don’t Marths ever use the downb reversal? I know it’s slow but if you have him off stage with no route back except through you, the downb seems so safe, no?
An example is at 1908 or so
The thing is, some pros will try to find the perfect angle up a slope like Yoshi’s or FoD (with spacies), and if this happens, the Marth counter won’t do anything, and they’ll get punished for it since it’s so slow.
No tech at 12:24 is down right shameful
16:46 is an illegal 0td wtf did I just witness
What if Marth actually does beat Fox?
doesnt he play a bit like Mangofox?
This just shows how much Maps matter in Melee lol
This is awesome
What was Zain listening to?
That sync 6:09
Where is the fox from? They are really good
Minnesota
ggs that was me
As if Zain needs more practice against foxes
I wonder when people are gonna start cheating with this shit
how do you do this
Where do you rank Phillip in your top 10?
I think in skill, top 15-20.
is he drunk in this?
omg 8:25 XD
This AI could go 2-2 at a Melee local
it would mollywhop most Melee locals
Zain beating Phillip is worse than Trump beating Kamala
Maga
What’s interesting about this? Genuine question. We already had a TAS level AI years before this. Philip just looks pretty human compared to the other one
Thats exactly what's interesting lol. The other one just waveshined you zero to death, this one actually plays the game
ok now i want to see every single pro play this thing this is so cool