Assembly theory of evolution explained | Lee Cronin and Lex Fridman
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 9 сен 2024
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Lee Cronin: Controvers...
Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
- NetSuite: netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour
- BetterHelp: betterhelp.com... to get 10% off
- Shopify: shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial
- Eight Sleep: www.eightsleep... to get special savings
- AG1: drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil
GUEST BIO:
Lee Cronin is a chemist at University of Glasgow.
PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: lexfridman.com...
Apple Podcasts: apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS: lexfridman.com...
Full episodes playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast
Clips playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast Clips
SOCIAL:
- Twitter: / lexfridman
- LinkedIn: / lexfridman
- Facebook: / lexfridman
- Instagram: / lexfridman
- Medium: / lexfridman
- Reddit: / lexfridman
- Support on Patreon: / lexfridman
Full podcast episode: ruclips.net/video/CGiDqhSdLHk/видео.html
Lex Fridman podcast channel: ruclips.net/user/lexfridman
Guest bio: Lee Cronin is a chemist at University of Glasgow.
Researchers from King's College London and the University of Oxford have formally demonstrated through published papers and blog posts that Assembly Theory (AT) is formally equivalent to existing work (Shannon entropy and LZ compression grammar) without proper citation, and is also a weaker version of these established theories. This highlights the importance of not exaggerating intended scientific work, much less if it is not original and does not explain what their authors claim to explain.
Publications include a paper in npj Systems Biology and Applications: "On the salient limitations of the methods of assembly theory and their classification of molecular biosignatures". "Assembly Theory is a weak version of algorithmic complexity based on LZ compression that does not explain or quantify selection or evolution", published in the arXiv and two medium post by Dr. Hector Zenil, broadly explaining why Assembly Theory and its marketing campaign are seriously damaging the image of science as a whole.
Getting a sense that this brings together J. Bach's notion that "reality is that which is implementable" and Wolfram's idea of computational irreducibly, ie "no cheating allowed".
Imagine a podcast with Bach, Wolfram, Cronin, Michael Levin and Iain McGilchrist :O
Getting a sense that the "history/memory is in the object" is reminiscent of Elitzur's timing - if that makes any
15:35 the reason the shortest path is important is because of efficiency. That’s also why we break the pieces of reality down with our eyes and such tools to understand it in different ways so that we can use it and not need too much energy and die of lack of resources and so on.
No efficiency itself, but the minimal action principle from physics.
Adrian Bejan and the constructal theory sort of speak about that.
I would think that for many cases finding the precise minimum number of steps or index would be an NP problem.
Likely for almost all cases. Science can only make sense of well-defined phenomena, which is neccessarily a small subset of all phenomena.
it always is for biological systems , which is why random graphs are so useful for this. As an organism you don't calculate the best course of action, you stumble upon it randomly with trial and error as reality discloses itself to the system , Embodied Cognition . They keep trying to do these closed system calculations to an open system its ironic.
Lee mapped the spiral of life by counting the number of differences to their origin and factoring in complex nested systems. Lex asks the ultimate question "what's the factory that made the factory?" The mystery might be a potent unity, unfolding backward in time as a chain of interacting templates, like a box of Legos with every possible assembly index.
Logic gates my friend! Incredible, the way life structures and operates entirely in switches at the smallest level onward. 1/0, B/W, on/off, yes/no, keep/pass, store/use, compress/decompress, etc. Binaries. Dual-Choice -> Up like bricks.
The same way ribosomes in DNA replicate & reproduce; passing enormous data in the double helix strands, is *identical* to the way prok/eukaryotes transformed and operate, how photosynthesis itself functions among the majority of plant species by way of organic logic gates. All well documented, across numerous magnificent biologic, chemical, atomic, and synthetic manufactured technologies: like a circuit board, semiconductors, and computing itself was designed and first discovered, and still is. It can be strongly supported that logic gates themselves are the foundational building block to life itself, past the microscopic level and down to the atomic one through bonds. Logic works: because the laws of the world say it works. It's truly remarkable.
Basically Wolfram's graph theory
As far as we know. The universe is a closed system. Since it's getting cooler.
Universe probably didn't have a cause in the sense that it came from nothing, the inflaton field becoming unstable "caused" sort to speak the expansion of the universe, with enough information (probably) the universe becomes a closed system. This close system maybe let's information out thru black holes but doesn't get new or more information.
Or maybe the fact that it's a closed system causes termodynamics, therefore Hawkin's radiation. The information is there in the black hole. But there is no way it goes out until it just... dies...
I don't know...
Wow! A nested doll may also work
Assembly theory doesn't even seem like a theory to me. It depends on measurements we can already make, and it assigns values denoting complexity which is something information theory figured out decades ago. I am still not clear on what is so new and exciting about this
I'm not sure is this a scientific theory either. Can it predict anything testable?
@@przemysawkusmierczyk9513It's a bunch of repackaging under a new name.
From an evolutionary perspective I think a focus on minimum assembly complexity isn't a particularly important metric. Far more important is assembly rate and robustness, which likely are correlated to assembly complexity but distinct features of the system.
Wolfram's work on A New Kind of Science (NKS) has been published in various reputable scientific journals, including Complex Systems, Physical Review, and Journal of Statistical Physics.
15:00 no the laws of physics aren’t even laws but the most likely outcomes in that environment. It’s like a medium and each different area with its medium has different environmental habits/rules, some are more tight and bottlenecked so certain things are like 99.9999999 always happening the same but something interacting with it that’s more different than its pieces and it can’t break it down or absorb it can cause a change. Like breaking something down to the smallest points of connections and seeing its variables and remembering the first connection like a growing stem cell and it’s connected to the rest of the processes. The stem cell can only be that one if that thing is making it and that thing is subject to the influences and we could see them as like laws of evolution but it changes with the environment.
Good to see Lee back here. His last chat was super.
Dear Sir, what is the predictive power of this theory?
Can it make any testable predictions?
After watching this discussion, I am a huge fan of Lee Cronin. I also find assembly theory very intriguing.
Quick thought, what if the quantum isn’t fundamental but a greater creation. Like the beginning isn’t the smallest point but somewhere in the middle and the quantum is grown smaller to be used in the creation of complex forms. Not just large forms like planets. Like think of it in the Big Bang’s point and it creates a lot of big well how would the small happen? Because the big causes friction or interacts and makes the small and that small group can rub other small groups and make even smaller forms that connect to the big.
Ivan, in Soviet Russia, was working in a tractor combinate, and decided to steal one pack from every component in the warehouse. However he tries to combine the parts, they always make a tank!
It's a pleasure to listen SMART PERSONS like You✨. Thank You🙏😊.
Can we have James Tour interviewed ?
13:00 not just work but the pattern. You can’t make a something if you haven’t made the things that make it. That’s why anything is possible but it takes understanding which is the evolution of mind when interacting with things and absorbing the details and using it in our predictions. How well we understand also determines how much we can create.
I'm confused what he's saying
Is it true that his assembly theory is in fact an old compression algorithm used in computer science?
Why is it so difficult for these academic types
to grasp the simple idea: more steps, always
means more problems, not less. There is an
insurmountable compounded improbability
problem for any multi step cellular process.
Yeah it's just like legos, someone made those legos just like someone made you, and it's God
“Some sort of Conservation Law” - interesting. I’ll now be going down a rabbit hole on this matter. Keep up the excellent work, Lex.
🤔 hmmm.... assembly?
Without an assembler?
Doubtful.
The assembler is the existing physical laws that govern space and time in the universe. But ask where did those laws and conditions arise from? Now I'm on the same page as you.
He's basically describing computational irreducability, as described by Wolfram. Sounds like a lot of scientists are now coming around to the computational lens of viewing reality, and they're all borrowing (or plagiarizing) ideas from each-other and re-wording them. In the end, the most succinctly or clearly worded description will win.
The part about "what's the factory that built the factory" is where it all falls apart though. Just wait until they come to the conclusion that the influence is coming from the universe that envelopes this one, and so on ad infinitum, and that we have no way to interpret it in the same way that a simulated being on our computer can never interpret the shape of the desktop PC running it.
So you could derive some kind of chemical Drake's equation to calculate the possibility of highly complex life in a given universe.
get these guys more taxpayer's research money so they'd finally figure out Shannon's entropy
I don’t think it’s practical, when creating a universal IT model of everything, to simulate materially existing structures (like that of the chemicals) separately - rather we need to find the FUNDAMENTAL similarities across all the unique organisational levels we can somewhat discover, and implement only the similarities we find when we analise the way subatomic particles build atoms, atoms self-construct into chemicals, ..., proteins develop into cells, neurons(?) formulate conscious minds, while constantly considering the dual nature as the ultimate sign of intelligence in things that are fundamentally dual in nature but still are one single entity: space/time, matter/wave(energy), data/instruction, multi functional molecular machines to name just a few. Or, if I can borrow your terminology: Assembly index (level of sophistication), Assembly instructions (DNA), Recursion formula (creation method) could form an endless cyclic pattern where the Assembly index and the set of instructions determine the creation method, by rating the instructions potential to drive an evolution towards the more and more intricate structures. Sorry for talking to myself this long.
He never says how we put the atoms together. How do we build the legos? He just says we put them together.
I think the point on this theory is that chemistry and physics can explain the basic building blocks. Many non living processes can create more complex molecules. But on this theory once you hit the 15 steps or more to create a molecule you need selection.
The theory’s about complexity and is not primarily about telling how something is formed, even though it is quantifiable and can be back traced with a spectrometer.
The same way that dust bunnies always assemble in corners and under furniture. That is, there are gradients and the components find the lowest point and tend to stay there. The gradient that creates dust bunnies is the movement of air in the room, which moves least in corners and other protected locations. The gradient that assembles molecules is electrostatic forces.
Because that’s common sense if you know basic chemistry
Indeed. You are very insightful ❤
I like his knowledge on this but I think losing ground getting off base
In 2021 I was quite fascinated with your talk here, now I see why.
I’m looking at the same kind of structure - in what an object is - but it’s applied to phenomena. It might point towards the answer - if married together - for the question “What’s the factory that made the factory?”
Relations prior to the relata is perhaps what phenomena flows inside.
I like to this about this, too. In terms of concept abstractions; the concept of a concept must have existed before "the concept of" anything else / every other concept. That's an interesting clue.
He has a paper in Nature! Wow! 👍
The Rainbow picture our Eternal Consciousness,
and Nature of Developing-Circuits.
Evolution, means In-Volving and Out-Volving
in Developing-Zones.
like how stars or planets are born?
16:15 just pure waffle
will this lead to teleportation theory?
This Sounds like taking a bottom up approach to finally realise that Plato's world of forms makes sense in reality.
I think Lee is a great scientist, but this theory does not well thought out to me. I have watched other videos of him and other people explaining this theory, and every time there is a new information that makes the theory have a slight different meaning. However, the thing with all theories is..... they can be very dangerous. Example, flat earth..... Not saying we have the same issue here, but I am just saying that for a new theory like this to be at least worthy of immediate attention, the authors need to be a bit more cohesive about what this theory actually is. Nevertheless, technically, the theory just considers counting steps in a memory state molecular assembly process. It just rewords what we know about life, hence nothing special in my view.
I guess we've come a long way from everything being random chance.
If this was true it would be happening everywhere, all the time.
13:26 built out of patterns.
This is consistent with Euclid's Elements.
this feels wrong, not even counterintuitive
Are ideas objects?
So by now we all know that it was not original and full of holes.
Not possible... total fantasy.
Like turtles all the way down it is chemical factories all the way down
That's quite painful and pathetic watching a chemist rediscover information theory... such a waste of resources and time, and so much confusion spread around. I can't wait for Wolfram to explain to that guy how little he understands anything, but again I don't think it would be worth his time.
AT on its own has nothing to do with evolution. Indeed his example at the end, about capitalism, defies AT's application to evolution as it demonstrates that some assemblies require intelligence. Capitalism finds the 'shortest path' via intelligent decision making.
Interesting. But more a hypothesis than a scientific theory at this point.
Enter the Causal Angel stage left...
The sonner the biologists study information technology, the sooner they will understand how wrong they are. Shannon information does not come from unguided processes. It is clear there is an anlogorythm here, the question is how come ...
Great, then make me a Star Trek Replicator.
Disnt he just debate janes tour?
No u thinking of professor Dave.
@@GerberdingFamily217 he definitely did
@@danhle1032 Cronin debated tour?
@@GerberdingFamily217 James tour was invited to Harvard by Cronin, but it wasn't so much a debate. James did a speech, they had a discussion over dinner and then they asked each other questions. We couldn't actually hear much of the over dinner discussion because they were having dinner haha. So it wasn't much of a public spectacle like the professor Dave debate.
@@TheNotSoFakeNewsother way around, actually. Tour invited Cronin and others and only Cronin accepted and then he wanted to back out but was told he was going to be called out in public if he backed out so like a true coward, he didn’t.
Object Oriented Onthology people be like no way that’s the definition of an “object”. Interview one of them OOO people, Lex!!!! That would be a good one!!
¿Que le pasó a la cabeza de este comentarista?
It sounds interesting, and possibly valuable, but Lee is not great at explaining it! It sounds extremely close to Wolfram’s work in a New Kind of Science, in what way does it differ?
Can someone explain it for a dum dum like me?
A pea is cooler than a ferrari
He's an origin of life researcher and his theory is attempting to explain how life became to be - or at least the minimum number of steps life would need to take before it got to where we are today.
Does anybody find this hard to understand or is it just dumb me?
Is not hard to understand, is just senseless
Expanding electrons/ atoms do it all. That’s physics. “The Final Theory: Rethinking Our Scientific Legacy”, Mark McCutcheon for proper physics. “Metaphysics “ is ‘ something ‘ else: unknowns.
I think the factory has always existed and always will exist.
An eternal factory? Do you have proof for this?
@@prayerjoseph9776how can reality not exist ? it always has, there's no beginning or ending.
@@intolerableHistories How do you know this?
@@prayerjoseph9776 I can't see how nothing can exist, that nothing would still have to exist in something.
@@intolerableHistories Ok, but we know the universe had a beginning, anything that has a beginning shall have an end, so you thinking it is eternal is not in line with what we observe.
Is there something you know of, that you are using to make this claim, that the universe always existed?
God
Sounds very Hegelian
So many people in here that study chemistry, physics , Mathematics, biology etc as a hobby and are making big egotistical statements 😂got to love the human condition !
We've sucked the magic out of all that is incredible. I call it the brain in a jar. And this man gets it. Your entire life, all its memories, all you've seen, all you've heard, where you've been, where you'll go, your thoughts lived and only lived under the hood. We've dumbed it down with overexplanation with how it transfers energy. Neurons, your serebelum, lobes, cortex; its shape. Now put it in a jar. Now think about that magic. We have no idea why the brain "is" doing all that it does, we've just put definitions on the aftermath of those processes. Explained away and dumbed down to an oversimplification, and the magic of how that brain in a jar: can't do a single thing that it can do, when in connection to the rest.
It's incredible. I like to think of wifi the same way 😂. Sure, network packets and data layers that come along and handshake; processed in bytes -> layered through binary. I get it. Still, we're missing the magic. We're transferring enormous amounts of data through thin air damnit. That's remarkable. You can just wave your hand and walk in front of it. Let alone online open-world video games like a gta. It's just there surrounding you. I don't need any more explanation. I get it. However, again, the magic is gone. And we tend to do this in so many other ways. And I study many sciences myself, and am far and wide a proponent of advanced science. However, there should be more emphasis on explaining that extra layer of what is so incredible about these processes, and stray away from defining them so hard, we become completely unenthralled.
Think about the guy who sequenced the genome and has allowed blood evidence and dna data into our lives. That is magic man, and we push the functional definitions so hard, that the youth no longer sees this, when scientists of the 20th century and before it, our parents and before them for centuries, knew of this magic firsthand. It's incredibly exciting to so many of them. I'm sure you can remember the moments of your old relative handled a touch screen. Or heard again with their cochlear implant.
Take a step back and think on things for how incredible they are at the first layer at the top. This man is taking that leap. It's not that we dig too deep, it's that we only dig, the magic completely lost in translation and dumbed down around the 98,000th atomic layer we've reached. Continue that, but for bom sakes, update the messenger because it's all so plain and boring to our future.
ruclips.net/user/liveNjvVhiympPs?si=Ln1lnYpatNc8tsP5
Corrections to Dr. Cronin’s speculations.
👍⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Nice defense of capitalism!
It feels like his ideas and the theory are great, but the guy is not very good at explaining things
This is annoying. Slow down a bit. Probably need to watch the full podcast .
You tube has a slow down feature. A fast forward one two
Hah! If "nature" took the shortest path a.k.a. "the lazy way" then we'll all be reptiles. Why waste precious calories to warm ourselves when we can just exploit solar energy? 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣
Oh btw reptiles SURVIVED the "little ice age" bcos we still have Lee Cronin. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
That's so silly, he's not saying evolution doesn't happen. Mammals survived and the dinosaur went extinct because they were better suited to life on a planet with no sun and therefore no solar energy. Being warm blooded became a very intense selection criteria and only individuals which had these ones were able to reproduce. (Of course some reptiles survived - I'm over simplyfying for brevity)
Simply counting the minimum number of steps between life evolving and today does not contradict these facts at all. You are making a fairly basic error, you are getting cause and effect mixed up. We are only attempting to observe what has already happened. Not change the past. Also your argument is self defeating, becuase if nature took the shortest path - as you say - reptiles wouldn't have evolved at all, we'd all still be single celled organisms floating in the sea. Do you understand how ridiculous this sounds now?
@@TheNotSoFakeNews Exactly! It's so utterly ridiculous. That point was brought up by Dr. Lennox regarding Leibniz paradox ("Why is there something and not nothing?"). 💯% agree. 😁
@@pj_ytmt-123 that's just another appeal to the god is the gaps isn't it?
We dont know something ..... Therefore God did it.
Saying why is there something rather than nothing is the 21st century equivalent of saying "why is the volcano erupting - becuase God did it, quickly somebody sacrifice a goat"
My wife with her sweetheart said that this isn’t even a theory it actually sounds like you swept the floor up into a dustpan and called it. A theory assembly theory seems like a drowning man’s grasp at the air.
Assembly paper 1st name Indian.....Even you go to mars you can see an Indian
This guest does alot of talking without making any sense. Sorry.
Its beyond your level of comprehension obviously
Dont be sorry
As the other person said, it really is beyond the comprehension of most people, including biologists who study evolution for example. Doesn't mean it's nonsense necessarily. We do need people thinking about things in such an abstract sense.
Why apologize for stupidity? It’s not your fault to be a stupid animal. Your parents are at fault.
It’s jargon bs