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Enhanced vs Unenhanced Training Results
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- Опубликовано: 4 сен 2024
- Here I go over a 1996 New England Journal of Medicine study that looks at the influence of exogenous testosterone on lean body mass improvements with and without training as compared to placebo. It might make you proud of your unenhanced results.
Doug is not exaggerating how effective some PEDs can be for increasing muscular size.
I trained naturally for 30 years and had great results (with HIT) but eventually learned my genetic limit was 182-183 pounds in lean condition.
I started using testosterone after turning 50 last August. I am now just over 208 pounds and still have well-defined abs. That's 25 pounds heavier than the best I was able to achieve naturally. If I can do that at my age after already maximizing my natural muscular potential, I can only imagine how much more effective it would be for some of these guys in their 20s who have not maximized their muscular potential, even if their exercise program is sub-optimal.
TRT to get your levels in the normal range? What is your T level?
Your testimony is meaningless unless you list your weekly amount injected. Big difference between doing 100mg/week vs. 1,000
I'm 60 and have never taken anything in my life. I believe its healthier to stay natural. This need to be big no matter what. Is a male ego thing. Be healthy no matter what.
Great video and advice, as always, Dr. McGuff. One additional point not covered in the study that is relevant to your messaging. Many of these RUclips influencers may also have superior genetics. Combined with enhancement, this gives them a dramatic leg up on an unehanced trainee with average genetics. An additional reason why you should view their messaging and advice with skepticism.
I am sorry but you are naive to think that many influencers have superior genetics. PEDS will transform most average males to a level, which makes anyone believe it’s all in their genetics. The proof is looking at some so called ‘genetics freaks’, once they come off these drugs. They look like they have never lifted in their life and will need TRT for the rest of their short unhealthy lives due to permanently shutting off their own Testosterone production.
Immediately forwarded to friends to remind them that many fitness influencers are BS. Great work Doug. We appreciate you.
Great video as ever Doug. This has become worse in recent years with the advent of “TRT”. Influencers talk about TRT as if it is just some medicine. But it is a camouflage for steroid use. The naturals are always better to look at for realistic expectations. If you want to go on gear well fine, but you are no longer a relevant role model.
Thank you, Dr. McGuff, for bringing awareness to this study. If only more studies in the health and fitness space where this well controlled, and not based on shoddy epidemiology, which most of them are, I would trust the literature in the health and fitness community more. This is definitely a video that I need to share with a lot people, especially beginners who think they will look like their favorite health and fitness idol after a year of training. PEDs are to many health and fitness influencers what smoke and mirrors are to magicians.
I turned sixty recently and had my T tested last year. Total T was in the low 400's and free was 7. There is no way to ward off sarcopenia and maintain a healthy level of muscle mass heading into your seventies without being on trt. I was put on 200mg per week broken into daily micro injections after being tested and it has made a life changing difference in my ability to exercise and recover. Beyond the increase in lean tissue, it has resulted in significant fat loss despite my healthy high protein diet remaining the same. My n=1 has convinced me that trt is an essential component of looking and feeling my best as I get older.
Your choice. The key is to be honest about it and not present as natural.
200mg is a bit high for TRT, it should be 125-150 unless youyou are jacked and neet to maintain those muscles!
"There is no way to ward off sarcopenia and maintain a healthy level of muscle mass heading into your seventies without being on trt." While it is normal for testosterone levels to decline with age, the majority of aging men should be able to maintain sufficiently high levels naturally that TRT is not needed. The recent sharp decline in average levels of testosterone is explained by obesity, Rx drugs, environmental pollutants, etc.; it is as abnormal and atypical as the recent rise in obesity.
This video should be shared over and over
Dr. McGuff more people need to hear this. Things have really gone off the rails as far as fitness advice and the influencers who put said advice out there.
listening to video with morning coffee. guess that is my first"dope shit" of the day. thanks
I highly recommend super coffee, beyond bulletproof.
"Filtered water, organic whole bean (freshly ground) steeped, poured off into blender with grass fed butter, while the blender is on low speed add two raw eggs (pasture raised) ....then improvise ingredients, ginger, cinnamon, cacao, olive oil, coconut oil, powdered mushrooms, multi collagen, grass fed whey protein, ginseng etc etc
etc...
however: I'm a skinny little mutant that only does one pull-up (30 seconds up, 30 seconds down) you may not want to take my advice. ♻️
Good Evening Dr. McGuff, I just wanted to stop on by the comments to let you know I'm about half way through "Body by Science" and it is outstanding. I've been a Student of HIT for about 3 Years now and have been refining my craft (Personal Training) with great works such as yours to bring my clients the upmost "optimal" Resistance Training with 100% safety in mind. Thank you for spreading TRUTH amongst a web of lies in our field of exercise science. God Love You!
Awesome! I found this study long ago & always use it as my finisher in online debates against the "drugs help a tiny bit but it's way more about hard work and diet" apologists online.
... Since most of them have proven too stupid to understand the results of the paper, I'll send them this video instead!
Wow, great word, thank you! In our world everyone is so superficially focused and terrified of aging, or not looking youthful, hot, whatever. So sad. I'll take peace and feeling great following your advice Dr. McGuff, and others with a piece of brain intact. It's ok to be "just a human." We are pretty darn great. God thinks so!
Every dude I’ve know who’s taken TRT over long term (year plus) turn into freaking Shriek. Bald, weird skin tone, and veiny.
No thanks.
Veiny appearance coming from high bp and baldness from DHT could be managed but I witnessed the same with TRT users more often than not.
Perfectly stated
I feel bad for people, especially youngins, who turn to PEDs to get all 'swole'. Now, with all the 'influencers', I think there's a great deal of Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD) as written in DSM-5.
Excerpt:
"Muscle dysmorphia:The muscle dysmorphia form of BDD is diagnosed if the individual is preoccupied with concerns that that his or her body build is too small or insufficiently muscular. Most are males. Many individuals with the muscle dysmorphia form of BDD are additionally preoccupied with other body areas; the muscle dysmorphia specifier should still be used in such cases. Individuals with the muscle dysmorphia form of BDD have been shown to have even higher rates of suicidality and substance use disorders, as well as poorer quality of life, than individuals with other forms of BDD. A substantial proportion use, and can abuse, anabolic steroids, which have significant health risks. In addition, the treatment approach may require some modification."
Great post Doug. Its a bias thats as old as the hills. I remember buying protein powder which was advertised by Arnold and Franco in Weider magazines. I was much younger and less worldly wise then but I honestly believed the resons they had such muscles was because of the protein powder and that trained twice per day 6 days per week. I was just plain wrong on most matters
lol, that was me too.
Very interesting to me, thanks. At 1.75 height, 75 years old, I'm only 59 kg, 9% fat. A doc once noted my low T. So I now regard T more seriously as an option if I want to increase muscle mass. 'Reluctant, but it could be worthwhile if sarcopenia justifies it. =)
at 75 you definatly and 100% need TRT, after 6 weeks you gonna feel 10-15 years yonger and stronger if you follow a proper diet and exercise!
Dont waste your time thinking about it, just do it :D
Also if you can get some Peptides that increase HGH or just buy HGH if you can afford it, you will never regret it but only be angry with yourself for not doing it earlier!
Fantastic video, as always, Dr McGuff - if one only read/listened to you and Nassim Taleb, they’d get 90% of the thinking framework that would help them sort their experiences and observations. Thank you!
Drew Baye and Jay Vincent both admit to TRT
I'm using supraphysiological doses, not just TRT levels, for bodybuilding competition (non drug-tested).
I've already proven I can get great results with HIT naturally, but I was at the limits of my potential, and 50 years old, and wanted to build even more muscle for competition.
I didn't know Jay Vincent was using TRT....!!
@@DrewBayeyeah but those banana 🍌 titties you got 😂 better off choosing another hobby.
I think you said that the amount of training was standardised. So that the tripling effect of having T would be more if people used it to train harder, longer, recover quicker.
I'll stick to natural means.
nothing is natural on this planet anymore!
I wonder if you could say the 80/20 Principle is applicable to big time juicers? Multiply what they weigh like by .8 and there you have it?
Thank you for share this information Dr. McGuff 😮
you would never take any advice about how to lower your blood pressure from someone who openly talks about taking blood pressure medications and then also talks about all the different things they do in their life that they perceive lower their blood pressure.
What a great analogy regarding roid munchers/social ‘fitness’ influencers. Absolute spot on. Can’t stand drug addicts handing out any advice on lifting!
Awesome video. Thank you for this
The problem is that they did not control for the additional "water weight" caused by the testosterone's aromatization to estrogen. Much of the additional "lean body mass" in those receiving the testosterone was water; they could have waited a couple of weeks after the injections ended (although even that would not have been enough time with 600 mgs/week; a month or more might have been needed) and re-tested...or used an aromatase inhibitor or used a diuretic.
All of these comments about TRT are incorrect.
600 mg/week of Testosterone is not TRT, that a massive hardcore cycle dose.
I started TRT at the age of 51 due to my very low free testosterone and fatigue and my dosage is 75mg/week. I feel better and my recovery has improved but even though I'm on "gear", I'm not nearly as strong or big as I was when I was a 25 year old powerlifter and completely natural. The dose makes the effect.
600 mgs/week would be considered a moderate cycle by most. 75mgs of test cyp or enanthate per week is low for TRT; if it gets your numbers into the high-normal range and "works for you", great; most people on TRT take 100-200mgs/week. Obviously, regardless of what you are using, you will generally get better results with more frequent, smaller dosages; Dorian Yates for example injects 20mgs subcutaneously every day (IM injections cause needless muscle damage). Because you mentioned a weekly dosage I assume you are injecting; some people prefer daily topical formulas such as AndroGel.
Thank you Doc. Truth spoken
Excellent advice 360°
Thanks for this very important information. Now I know doing right.
You are correct that you should be skeptical taking advice from people online who obviously use drugs to achieve their physique. That said, the participants did not gain 3kg of muscle tissue with no training. 600mg of Testosterone will increase estrogen a lot and then you would retain water. That water would show up on dexa scan and any other test as lean body mass.
This knowledge is so useful.
It's a similar situation with nutrition. There are 20 year old RUclipsrs, who look great and give people advice on diet. The problem is that they look great because they had very healthy parents and grandparents and not because of their bogus fad diet they have been following for a year.
That’s amazing thank you
Hi Dr. Doug McGruff. I want to ask you about something called Cregaatine and also ask you about the plain Gaa (if I got the name right. I've asked many fitness youtubers, health youtubers and Doctors that are into anti-aging. None have responded. Doctor Brad Stanfield has not responded but some commentators from his videos responded with claims that it does not exist. I don't care if you have a negative or positive about Cregatine or not. I just need to know if I should take it or not. I don't want to poison myself. Please respond.
Search PubMed. Plenty of articles there on GAA supplementation alone, and with creatine. I wouldn't bother, unless you can get GAA very cheaply.
Thank you for this precious content doctor McGuff, I want to take the opportunity to express my thought on peds:
Many people complain that the consumption of peds have been normalised nowadays, don’t you all realise that other drugs which actually decrease natural testosterone level and reduce your health in misery have been normalised way before? Cigarettes, Alcohol, Drugs, these are all stuff that have been normalised worldwide, but if someone decides to enhance his strength, look better and feel better than there is something wrong.
Obviously in competitive sports there shouldn’t be usage of peds, unless every athlete is allowed to.
But for general population what is the problem? As long as people are honest about it, especially fitness influencer, then it wouldn’t be a problem, if smoking is ok than test should be ok too!
I just hate those who are on steroids and give exercise advice when they don’t understand exercise for marketing reason “buy my program to get as jacked as me” that’s something I don’t like
skin in the game!!!
plus the enhanced is only temporary, and/or only while using these substances.
I like Dr. McGuff’s content. However, this is stuff 99.9 percent of serious lifters already know. Injected growth hormones will produce lean muscle in trained and untrained individuals. If you know what to look for, you can tell who’s using growth hormone. Also genetics plays the most important outcome in one’s physique. Long vs short muscle bellies etc. some will have great, biceps, others will have great forearms, others legs, chest, and so forth. I understand you mentioning influencers online and to look for people who train natural and what they’ve achieved. Keep in mind muscle maturity as well. Some of these natural fitness peeps have been training for 10 years to get their physique. Age, genetics, diet, intensity, stress levels and recovery play vital roles as well.
Yes, this seems like something "we all know", but to really know, a good randomized study will help certify your knowledge. I am not sure how old you are, but I can tell you that throughout a large part of my training lifetime that this was not known and was actively denied. Steroids were to athletics what Ivermectin was to Covid-19.. In 1983 Arthur Jones wanted to prove it by recruiting and training The Mentzer Brothers and Boyer Coe. The idea was that with proper training and equipment he could improve their results without PED's. Well look at Boyer in The Nautilus Advanced Bodybuilding book, or some of the videos of Mike Mentzer training Boyer Coe at the Nautilus studios and you can see how that worked out.
@@dr.dougmcguff282you just lost credibility mentioning ivermectin and covid 19. It only works in a petri dish. The dosage that is effective on covid can’t safely be administered to humans.
I heard that Boyer went off the drugs but didn't wait enough time, before training with Arthur, to allow his body to start reproducing enough T on his own to get better results ... who know if that is real true story or correct info@@dr.dougmcguff282
Hello Dr.Doug Mcguff, what’s your opinion on a low protein diet being preferable to slow one’s speed of aging like Prof. Valter Longo recommends ? Meaning less than 80 grams per day for a man weighing 200 pounds.
I think this is likely not correct. Focusing on markers of aging, or animal models can be the basis for this conclusion. Much of this is based on effects on mToR. For more detail, see my prior videos that discuss mToR.
So kick Baye and Vincent to the curb.
Is Jay Vincent enhanced now as well? Their use is their choice but the point is that they need to be honest about it so that it is clear what can be realistically expected as a natural.
Jay Vincent admits to TRT however back in New York as Jay Primaralo he was arrested in possession of a gun and steroids
James Primaralo sorry not Jay Primaralo
I disagree. Drew pushed his physique to a very high level before going on TRT and the before/after and transition were documented meticulously on his forum. I am not saying TRT or PEDs disqualify you as an expert or influencer. Jay offers great content and his advice produces results for many when nothing else has worked.
@@dr.dougmcguff282 agreed but the key thing is that such influencers need to be open and honest about their use of the drugs. I would rather both were natural and presenting what HIT could do without enhancement, giving realistic expectations to the average person. But the choice is theirs. Drew as he was just before he started TRT could have won natural bodybuilding competitions. If find you more of a role model now. I look at Drew and am very impressed …. But he’s no longer something I can see as attainable.
Hey Doc, are you on TRT, can you please do a video on this??
so you are saying that i can take PEDs, do nothing, and STILL gain? hell yeah.
An interesting question is if the ability to put on muscle naturally is an independent variable in relation to the response to PEDs.
Another (unrelated) question at this point: have you had any experience with trainees that had any form of metastatic cancer? Did HIT-training positively influence their disease progression?
Short time frame vs long term time frame .
Natural litter after 15yrs vs enhanced alot smaller difference .
Natural lifter interested in training will filter out what is useless vs what is useful.
Enhanced would not care in a high % of cases because they are getting good gains already.
Very good video Dr McGuff. However, I would add that someone who is enhanced or coaches enhanced athletes who gets good results probably has just as much to contribute in the area of training advice as someone who is natural or coaches natural athletes.
The physiological adaptations to resistance training are the same, just amplified, and the myth that “naturals can’t train like enhanced lifters” is just that, a myth.
I do agree that it can be harder to separate what was driven by drug use vs training, but the same can be said of genetics. Even response to drugs is entirely genetic.
Some guys with amazing genetics can get great results training un-intelligently without drugs, even better than a very intelligent trainer with drugs and bad genetics! See Ronnie Coleman when he turned pro.
Agree with everything you said here. Especially that the response to drugs (and their side effects) also being genetic. Naturals can (and do) train like enhanced lifters, it's just that enhanced lifters SOMETIMES have a false sense of how good their advice is. Sometimes the drugs put them on third base and they think they hit a triple.
@@dr.dougmcguff282 definitely agree with that!
I beg to differ.
Decades ago (in the 80’s) I followed what the drug induced bodybuilders and strength athletes advised and ran myself into the dirt. I was doing it as a natural because that’s what seemed normal. And, I didn’t realize they were drugged up at the time because most lied about any enhancement drug use.
I was Constantly sore, fatigued, sick, and rundown. I almost quit training completely because I thought there’s no way I could keep that up for the rest of my life and remain healthy and sane while holding down a full time job and giving time to my wife and children etc. I did it that way for about 7 years. Then I found alternative information, thoughts and ideas from Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer (who was probably one of the more honest or open drug taking bodybuilders).
I cut back heavily on the volume and frequency of my training and got excellent results with less time and felt better.
What the steroid induced guys promoted was crap for the natural. I saw guys who got off of the juice and still tried to train the way they did when they were on and guess what, they could not maintain the gains they had while on the sauce. And, they became rundown, sick, weaker and even depressed.
So, guess what they did?
They got on the juice again so they could get back what they lost. It is a vicious cycle that never ends and they never learned the Real truth about what works for the natural man. They never found out how to be strong and healthy without the aid of a needle.
They never understood the value of proper recuperation and finding the naturals sweet spot.
They couldn’t because they were out of touch with that kind of perspective. You have to live it to know it. What they were living was a lie and when they got off their cycle the truth smacked them upside the head.
Doug McGuff is 100% right.
@@dr.dougmcguff282Doug, your work has been tremendously valuable over the years. This video was very much needed. Especially for those who are questioning their sanity as to how they can remain drug free yet still be strong and in great shape without wasting their life away for hours on end and chasing after rainbows.
Thanks for your dedicated contribution to this subject. I’m sure, just as I was, there are many in need of an alternative solution to becoming a pin cushion.
What you’ve put forth over the years has not gone unnoticed. Keep up the good work.
"drugs will cause more muscle gain than training."
Cue the sound of whining from people who still believe muscle magazines.... (ironically, the people on the covers of those same magazines like Dorian Yates would look at them like they're stupid if they asked if drugs were more important in total muscle gain, because they openly admit they are)
Never liked the term "Performance enhancing drugs" makes them sound a little innocuous, better would be "Phenomenally effective drugs"
I wonder how much of that x3 gap can be closed by better strength training methods and better diet.
The group doing no training but on the gear did better than those training with no gear. It is a game changer.
@@ChrisGraeme yes they gained 3 kg but that is it, they will not gain any more musscle if they dont train hard!
@@weedylock yes but the point is that gear alone is huge in impact.
If the former training methods arent obnoxiously bad and overtraining fest, then gap wouldnt really be closed. Genetics and steroids make all the result in the world, not training methods, not discipline and hardwork. Doing 15-30min workout twice a week is not hardwork. The only hardwork and discipline may be in the nutrition part, but if you are not enjoying your diet and you crave for "cheatmeals" and you use tremendous discipline and willpower and feel like depriving yourself, you are dieting wrong.
@@ChrisGraeme its only in the beginning and 600mg of test for 3 kg is nothing to brag about. I know what gear does as i take it myself!
Look at his physical shape, gents, and learn. 20 yo people have it in their dreams only.
And sadly ped and or trt is being normalized and becoming more
And more mainstream
Well...we don't have enough long term data to know if it is sadly or not. For those with true low T it may be miraculous. For people doing it only for the aesthetics it may have downstream negative consequences.
Thanks for thoughtful reply. The problem, I suspect, is that what is considered “low T” has been somewhat arbitrarily set by either the companies manufacturing the testosterone or those prescribing it. To me, an obvious conflict. Is it “normal” or actually desirable for a 65 year old to have the same T-levels as when he was 25.? (Which is in itself a guess as no individual was tested at 25). I certainly don’t know the answer but at 65 with tested T considered “low” (I can provide), I’m able to achieve. ruclips.net/video/GDtBTEA_msc/видео.htmlsi=pDtIsKuw7BIXoy_O
@@ss153015 you are looking great Rick.
@@ss153015What was your level? I’m 62 with a level of 124 total T. Saw your video and would be ecstatic with your build.
Spoiler Alert: Everyone on social media that looks jacked is on drugs, especially the women that are more diesel than the typical high school football player.
Just because the injections looked the same doesn't mean the experimenters didn't know they were on 600mg of test LOL. Would be pretty hard to miss
Why?
@@guitarista666 - not at the beginning of the experiment. Perhaps not at the end either, sometimes the difference between 1.9 and 3.2kg is not obvious.
Steriods do not work. One will go much further training natural. I take pride on being a lifetime natural bodybuilder. Training full body twice a week which I won a few bodybuilding contests and placed in the 2008 Natural Olympia. At 69 I am still going strong. Take the momentum out of your workouts and use light weights making it heavier. Save your joints. You wont ever need steriods if you train this way.
Hear, hear. So BS on YT. Once again scientifically-based truth.