@@AndreasSpiess The one interesting feature that I have read about Therad is that if a border router or commissioner fails, the other takes over and you notice nothing without need to re-register all the devices, unlike Zigbee where we have only one Coordinator device per network as a single point of failure.
Thank you so much, this was an extremely valuable and helpful video for me: You define the "problem" and its "pieces", you explain the considerations, you describe your decision-making process and what conclusion you have come to, and also what qualifiers apply. I believe I have seen you do this in other videos, too, and I'm very thankful: I like to think I'm clever, but there is quite a lot to consider, and I appreciate that you've offered a well-considered "blueprint" for how I can reconsider my own position. Bravo!!
I do like that matter has support for multiple border routers. However the amount of added complexity makes me wonder whether the protocol is overengineered. I guess when you have to make a standard for all manufacturers, you have to include everyone's requests, otherwise they won't use it. Which is also probably the reason why the standardization takes sooo long. I guess the main benefit is there for the non-technical users, because we could always connect everything already with home assistant. I also think it's useful for large companies that may have lots of sensors and multiple border routers. It looks like matter scales better than zigbee
Successful standards should concentrate on the use case, not on manufacturers. But I agree, the more (large) partners, the longer it takes to get an agreement. Smaller partners usually must accept what they get ;-)
Matter doesn't have a Border Router, it's Thread that uses Border Routers. Except of Devices, Matter has Controller and Bridges has components of the infrastructure. Matter is not = Thread
Thank you for explaining things which matters. Similar here: Having a well working home automation with ioBroker, Homematic, Zigbee, ESPs, 433MHz, Modbus, RS485, I will wait until the novelities are mature enough, available and well supported by ioBroker. Such a powerful middleware is essential. Also integration of Fronius, BYD , Victron, Pylontech was minimal effort. Btw: Node to node communication is also provided by Homematic for many years. Useful feature.
You are welcome! I think, Zigbee also has device-to-device communication. However, as I understand, they want to add also automation. Which is needed for modern home automation if you ask me. Just connecting a switch to a bulb is not sufficient in 2023...
KNX (which is from the mid-80s) also provides device to device communication. Some KNX devices also provide some logic to automate some basic tasks. It integrates nicely into the well-known automation systems (iobroker, node red. openhab etc.). Thus, basic functions (like switching lights or moving shutters) do not load the home automation system (HAS) and are still available if the HAS fails (increasing the WAF ;-) and also helps to keep the system architecture clean. KNX devices are provided from a lot of manufacturers. Drawbacks are: 1. it is a wired system and therefore not suitable for retrofitting. 2. an expensive commercial software package (ETS) is needed to configure the devices. However, if you build a new home or renovate your electrical system, I would seriously look into KNX.
@@ulistermclane yes, I agree. For new buildings KNX (based on EIB) meanwhile would be the best choice in my opinion. Main advantage is indeed "devices are provided from a lot of manufacturers".
Hi Andreas! Thanks for the interesting video. Sorry, but I have a few boring comments here. I think it is incorrect to mix Matter and Thread. Thread already exists a long time ago, and Matter is a relatively new thing. Thread is like WiFi, but only for IoT devices. It offers reliable and long-range (because of its mesh network nature) communications for low-power devices, and, most important - it isn't dictating to you what data you must transfer (unlike Zigbee/Matter). You don't need to buy a border router and sensor for starting playing with Thread - you need just 2 devkits from Nordic, you can make a DIY border router and sensor(s) - what I did. Thread and Zigbee have some similarities only at first look - they both mesh, and they are both based on 802.15.4, but Zigbee was created in 90's, and Thread development started in mid-2010's - Thread is much more adapted to modern IoT needs. The Thread devices can talk with the cloud (or local server, MQTT-SN for example) directly - because of IP nature of the network. The border router is actually a simple packet forwarder, it is NOT changing the packet payload. On the other hand, Matter is actually a Zigbee over IPv6 - with almost the same cluster structure. The same Zigbee from 90's. It is unlikely that we will see our devices working purely over Matter - because it is dictating a payload, it has a fixed (and limited) clusters structure. So, Thread is a great thing for makers, but not Matter. All opinions are just my own.
I can agree with your statements and do not see a discrepancy to the video. With the exception that you state that a newer age is better without stating the advantage for the user ;-)
MQTT over Thread. In a battery driven device, I see lots of advantages compared to Wifi. * latency, ex. for a button * resiliency * onboarding? resiliency: mesh and multiple border routers. if the latter can serve for redundancy. Likely better than wifi roaming which is entirley up to the client device. onboarding (connecting a new device): I'm eager to find out how that works for own custom devices/custom firmware. Ideally the access credentials don't need to be flashed like with wifi. MQTT/Thread vs Zigbee: ability to connect to the device and chang the config (ok, same as MQTT/Wifi). Note: this is my hope talking. As noted in the video, those names (thread/matter) make it unnecessarily hard to google any information. Any info would be welcome.
@@AndreasSpiess Well, I looking at this from the maker/technical perspective. From the end user, especially with battery-powered devices and small apartments, there is probably not much difference between Thread and WiFi. However, WiFi works with the speed of the slowest devices, so adding lots of ESP32 in your home WiFi might degrade the performance on other devices. With Thread, networks work better if there are more devices and WiFi performance obviously will be not affected.
@@lePoMo I have nRF52840 with DS18b20 sensor. It works (with MQTT-SN over Thread) for 30-35 days on 2xAA batteries. It transmits data every minute. Not bad I guess, but I didn't optimize it hard, so probably it can have even more lifespan. Not sure if this is possible with WiFi.
I hope that if thread takes off, it enables a much more reliable and user friendly home automation. More then one border router can reduce single point of failure issues and if it is easier to implement node to node automations as with z-wave or zigbee it could revolutionise the way how houses are wired. Think of kinetic wall switches over thread. No need for cables or battery replacement.
Andreas, completely agree with your point on the poor naming conventions for Matter & Thread. I've been looking for more details on this subject for a few months and gave up because the search results are so poor due to the broadness of these names. In a way, this video has helped consolidate so much information. Thank you so much!
While the naming could definitely have been more unique, try googling with: 'matter "home automation"' or 'thread "home automation"' and you'll get plenty of resources. :)
Thanks Andreas Another great video! Personally, I 'm still with Z-Wave, and will try to keep it as long as possible. I love when it works without having to maintain. It is reliable, simple, powerful
@@AndreasSpiess Thank you for opening this up for discussion. but..... There are a lot of EU Z-Wave users that would disagree with you. Z-Wave already provides many (if not all) the advantages that you ask for. For instance, you can associate nodes between devices which allows you to control the device, but I'm sure you already know this but omitted deeper references to Z-Wave. It allows control without having to use a HA System or allow use if the HA system goes down although you do need a Z-Wave HA Controller to set it up. There are other advantages, but this isn't the place to discuss them. On a personal level, Z-Wave is a walled garden, expensive by virtue of the high cost of joining the manufacturers club. Silabs controls it, making it a monopoly which is unhealthy. I notice that Sillabs has their grubby hands all over Matter - I can see the mistakes of the past 15 years or so being repeated. Silabs using regional frequency was/is a deliberate act of gross stupidity and set back interoperability of devices between regions back into the dark ages. So, the way I see it is thus: KNX for professional use Z-Wave as above with the advantage of retrofitting. Z-Bee for semiprofessional use. WiFi is open slather. Shelly made it all workable. Just my 2 cents worth from the other side of the world and I won't mention software. :)
Thread sounds like a good communication specific HAL for micros. The key word is sounds. I've yet to get it working despite trying two different manufacturers (Microchip and ST). Which is mildly unfortunate.
I use a limited form of the device-to-device communication you describe at about 7:54 at my home. I have a variety of devices running Tasmota, and it has a simplified built-in scripting mechanism and a grouping function that allow you to link devices together independently of the server. Since the devices on my wall for controlling the lights are separate from the controllers hooked up to the LED strips themselves, this function means my wall switches still work as expected even when my Home Assistant server is down, requiring only wifi to operate. As you say, it's a tricky function to get right but it's certainly nice to have when it works. I agree with the overall thrust of this video that both Matter and Thread are not that big of a deal for those of us who have already "solved" these problems with other protocols and techniques, but they will hopefully be useful for people currently stuck with their whole home automation setup linked to Google or Apple or whoever's ecosystem.
I remember that I also used this Tasmota feature once to solve a problem. We will see how they deal with its complexity if you want to deploy it in a real mesh...
The explanation that cleard my assumptions, as always - simple and on point. In general, thanks to your videos that motivated me and I finally have my HA working beautifly and even did a presentation about it, of course based on your tutorial from one of the other videos - I have made the impression of being smarter than I am, as expected 😀 (or maybe I am smarter than I think I am 🤣)
Andreas, I completely agree with the naming of these standards. Very poor choice of words, not only because of search engines, but more so due to what those words mean. It appears that thread defines the wireless communications. But matter can also communicate with devices using WiFi. So, if one thinks that "thread" is for linking, and "matter" is the physical device, one ends up quite confused by the choice of those terms.
Thank you for the video. Just one remark: at 8:09 you say that communication today runs via the server in all cases. I am quite sure this does not apply to several "old" HA networks, be it eNet, Livergy, or Zigbee - to name just a few. The server may be needed to configure ("pair") devices, say a switch and a lightbulb, but afterwards the command goes from the switch to the bulb directly. Same e.g. for a window switch and a radiator thermostat. With Zigbee, pairing a luminaire and a remote control can often be done directly between the two end devices.
I agree that some devices can be paired and work together. I never used it, and I also did not see a lot of projects using this feature. I assume most automations are a bit more complex than just a switch and a bulb. Usually, I need several inputs, visualizations (UI), reporting, etc. But maybe I am wrong.
A succinct view of where the big players want us to go. The connectivity we already have with ble and WiFi including ESPNOW and RFID or NFC is more than enough for most homes. To build redundancy in the WLAN we simply add a few more AP's and tune WiFi power levels along with a few client (sensor) roaming settings.
I think that one of the most important benefit of Matter is to remove the bad habit to make devices relying on external cloud servers to work. Without the cloud as well as without internet connection, they are like bricks, completely useless. Thanks for your video.🙏😁
@@AndreasSpiess Hi Andreas, yes, ZigBee is able to create a mesh but has at least two drawbacks: 1) ZigBee is not able to have more than one coordinator device. So that's a single point of failure. Thread instead can keep many eligible Lead devices, ready to kick in as needed. 2) Even if you manually swap the faulty ZigBee coordinator with a new one, you have to manually pair again all the devices. Thread instead, do the pairing automatically if a Lead failed and a new one has just been elected.
Matter will happen in time, many manufacturers are working toward this goal. Specifications + SDKs + Certifications... the scope is large.. , look at the average number of pending Pull Requests on the Matter open source SDK (50 - 90 PRs constantly open since the inception of the project.. ). Challenges mainly reside within the high security level imposed by the standard. Also the size of the core-stack is quite big compare to any previous standard (~ 1 M). The SoC manufacturers need as well to provide new flagship MCUs in order to accommodate Matter hence device manufacturers need also the time to upgrade their product to Matter...
Using BLE-based commissioning is an alternative commissioning method (where you need devices that support both Thread and BLE that can act as commissioner to approve new devices into a Thread network). The choice for BLE is so mobile phones and regular computers can be used to add devices to a network. But border routers will provide another commissioning path, which won't be much different from enabling join mode on Zigbee controllers.
Bluetooth want a lot of money to licence devices that can be legally sold. I think Thread is an open licence. You really don't want to be stuffed by lawyers. Any change you make means coughing up more money for relicensing. Nor can you just buy a Bluetooth device like a module and use that as a part in a finished product without a separate licence.
I love your videos so much. I also know you don't like ads, I hate them too. You should add a join button (where users who choose donate to your projects every month). I would donate, myself
I was just wondering about it as I got back into HA... And there's a video by the guy with a swiss accent about it! Great! Also, I feel like it's relevant... XKCD #927
I don't say they all are bad. But you always need extra hardware to do the work. I do my home automation for around 20 years with Industrial PLC's. There i have it all in one system. I don't say that my way is the best one, on the other side i save a lot of hardware and service and support. A discussion would be very interesting.
Your way is different to the current mainstream which is mostly wireless and based on ready-made software like Home Assistant. With all its advantages and disadvantages.
I'm starting to create my smart home, and I have decided to use Zigbee in every device I can. It don't need WiFi repeaters, an application to link the WiFi which can dissapear in the future or stop working, and doesn't depends of internet or 3rd party servers, has make me decide tu use it. Matter and Thread can be an alternative, but there are no compatible devices... Anyway, my new coordinator together with Home Assistant is compatible with Zigbee and Thread, so I can switch to one or another, or use both at any time.
I wanna see a unified provisioning/claiming interface that's secure, that way all you have to do to support all home automation apps is define the actions it performs and input/output data.
@@AndreasSpiess The end goal would be a common interface between home automation client apps and iot devices so that the same device would work no matter what app you use. But that's unlikely so what I wish for is maybe some shared open API that lets you: 1. Send your wifi credentials to the device securely and 2. Claim ownership of that device. If this was a common interface it would be up to developers to support as many home automation apps that use this common interface as they are able to. Btw my idea for this is to embed NFC chips on IoT devices that if it's a first boot it will use to set itself up and connect to your wifi network and talk via that interface with your home automation app. This makes pairing such devices a very batchable job as you need only write the NFC tags before even plugging them in.
Hoi Andreas, have you had a chance to look into Matter over Thread? I've recently gotten my first Zigbee end device working with the ESP32-C6 and was wondering if it's wroth exploring making it work with Matter/Thread. And I'll use this opportunity to thank you for the many years of informative technical videos! Absolutely love your content as well as the accent.
I will stay with my well working ESP-NOW. I can program the devices, hardcode all for pairing. Always works. 0 dependency on any manufaturere or standard or devices/gateways
Very much agree. Matter is far too memory hungry and wants to tell you how your product should work rather than sticking to only the protocol. Basing it on Zigbee may not have been such a good idea. They also offer very little benefit to manufacturers. Customers will end up with a fragmented range of products as some manufacturers change to Matter and others don't. Matter doesn't matter, sorry...
Time will tell. Usually, the consumers decide in the long run, not the manufacturers. But it helps if some big guys are behind it. Manufacturers usually want to differenciate their products to keep prices high, buyers want to have standardiized products to get competition. An ever returning story...
Well, with HA or HE it’s only the question if there are usable drivers with all functions the devices offer, or if one can program themself. No big help to integrate a device when only a fraction of functions are controllable via the Hub. Also, once connected a device it’s crucial that one actually finds what functions a device actually offers. … so, me being at the start of home automation that’s the missing link of informations.
Im quite partial against arduino as a development platform since nothing within the developement platform comes with a datahseet for the quality of finetuned control in the libraries, unlike xc8, xc32, the stm hal arm libraries, and whatever other manufacturers use as standard. But brilliant presentation as always. Hope the IoT industry finds a standard of its own rather than companies hijacking terminologies as their own.
Thank you. As said in the intro: I did not want to be correct. This is why I put them in one layer because I did not see an advantage to separate them for this video.
You're definitely not sending security camera feeds over 802.15.4. That being said, proper modern security cameras don't need additional IoT protocols for remote setup. There is always the various ONVIF standards to handle those tasks.
I'm excited to make Matter devices that I can give to other people. Right now, I use Home Assistant for automation, but my family and friends have no idea how it works. I'm hoping that someone creates an easy-to-use Arduino library so I can create Matter devices that other people can easily integrate in their homes
Thank you Andreas for an interesting video If you look at this from a Network perspective, maybe its more clear. 802.11 (wifi) and 802.15.4 (used in Thread) are both IEEE standards, and are complements not competing protocols, and they both act on the fysical layer and data link layer 802.15.4 is a a low-rate wireless personal area network, and 802.11 is a High bandwith wireless local network protocols It is confusiong to putt matter that acts only on the application layer next to BLE sensors ,433Mhz Sensors that is manly on data and link layer. "We solved the problem on a different level, but it works without "matter" and "thread" " No we solved it on the same application layer, but not based on standard,
You're missing one big thing: Security. With matter, everything is encrypted and verified, which may be important for many of us (and indeed should be critical to all of us).
(Open-)Thread has some importance (for energy, battery powered) to provide IPv6. For Matter I'm not so sure. NOTE: STM has the nice STM32WB (-55) chips for Thread, or there is SiLabs Gecko. I don't recommend any nordic or ESP crap.
The problem of all these newer chips (for me) is the lack of Arduino IDE support. I will not learn a new IDE without all the libraries just to have Thread. Too much effort. But this is different for a professional developer, of course.
I’m also not in a hurry, with HomeKit and Homebridge i have everything in place and working. I can voice command my non-HomeKit devices like they where HomeKit devices
It was very useful for me listening to the great explanation. Somehow I never got the idea from the Matter whitepapers. You explain top-down and bottom-up, something only a practitioner can do! 👏☺️ On that note, could Matter and Thread become important in the IIoT space? What's your view on that Andreas?
I do not know IIOT and its use cases. For building automation, I assume, it also will become a major player. But there it faces stiff competition. And wires are still the norm, I think.
I think the ESP32-C6 is way more interesting compared to the -H2. The H2 doesn't have WiFi, where the C6 has all; WiFi, Bluetooth, 802.15.4 And as far as I understood it, support for the C6 is planned for Arduino, where it is unclear when (if?) the H2 will be supported.
@Andreas Spiess It all depends on what you switch on for sure... WiFi and low power are not a very good combination. FYI, I've put the specs of all in a single table on EspEasy's readthedocs in the ESPchips section. (apparently my reply is moderated by RUclips, because I put in a link) As you can see, the H2 will run at a lower clock, which often is a good indicator of lower power consumption. However, purely based on the information provided by Espressif, the C6 may be slightly more forgiving regarding the supplied voltage, so batteries may last longer (or can get a deeper discharge) The C6 does seem to have more power profiles compared to previous ESP32 variants. For the H2 I was not yet able to find this information.
@@TD-er The time to switch the CPU on and transmit data was the biggest issue with BLE on the ESP32. It took forever where on a BLE beacon, this time only was milliseconds...
@@AndreasSpiess I have not yet tried using BLE on the ESP32, but for WiFi I noticed that adding a few msec delay after each WiFi related call, the WiFi connection process was a lot (!!) more deterministic and faster. Try 100 msec as default delay and then work down to see what's needed as minimum. So maybe there is something similar with the BLE calls, as delay() does also process background tasks.
Hi Andreas! Who will be in control of the authentication on these devices, me or the manufacturer. Will it be like many BLE devices for example, where you buy a device but it is locked to the manufacturers app. As soon as the manufacturer can't be bothered to support it any longer, your device is effectivly e-waste. Being a standard, even open standards don't prevent this type of behavior (There should be an EU law I think). Nice work BTW, your videos always insightful.
From an educational perspective, showing Thread on the same protocol level as Bluetooth, Wifi and Ethernet is fairer. It's just another network communication protocol that runs parallel to, for example, Wifi.
Yesterday I was excited to receive my first Thread devices (some Nanoleaf bulbs). Toggled on Thread in my Eero 6+, powered up a bulb, and ... nothing. "No network found" says Nanoleaf. I've done a lot of digging but no success. Some suggestions that I need to "link" my Nanoleaf and Amazon accounts, but no one says how. Scoured the settings of both apps to no avail. So, I've ordered a couple Nordic dongles and will try building some OTBR's. Hardly trivial, and still a coin toss whether Nanoleaf will be any happier with that anyway. So far, Thread looks like a HUGE step backward, at least in terms of vendor interoperability, compared to what we have today in BT or WiFi. It completely fails at one of its big promises.
Amazon just autoresponded with a link to a "what is Thread" article. But I did get an apparent human at Nanoleaf, after a couple attempts to describe my problem I finally got: "We are not able to support Eero routers." So much for Thread's interoperability promise. Still hoping OTBR will rescue me when my nRF52840's arrive. But if Thread is this bad ... I've decided to forget I ever heard about Matter.
@@joelluth6384 That'll be because you are a new adopter, trying to use a new standard that is still in the process of rolling out. ONLY Apple and Google border routers are known to be working properly right now - they MUST be running v1.3.0 of Thread. And many manufacturers (Amazon for example) - are still in the process of upgrading to v1.3.0. None of the manufacturers are keen to just throw a switch and upgrade everyone - in case suddenly millions of smart speakers / displays are broken. See EverythingSmartHome for a demonstration of how 3 months ago nothing worked, but since the release of v1.1 of Matter - everything has indeed started working.
They're not smaller players. Each company acts in its own interest. Google is more marketable in the western market ergo, u might see smaller "catch all" brands in eastern / eastern influenced markets such as Europe.
You know you're doing a horrible job when you make USB's naming scheme look good. Also, I think there are less people out there than will admit that they are a little tired of everything coming with the, "we collect everything, literally, about you and sell everything, literally, about you to anyone that ones it, governments, other businesses, telemarketers, stalkers, everyone."
What I don't understand is why there doesn't seem to to be a an easy way to use Matter-over-WiFi on e.g. Tasmota or our own Arduino (software) based gadgets? Shouldn't this be very easy? I also assume that there should be a Matter controller/server similar to Mosquitto, but still haven't found an easy simple way to have my own little Matter controller running on Linux? Also: could anything we manage to connect to Matter then be automagically controllable through Google Home & Co.? Or do we need to get Google's blessing for that? My end goal is to somehow, easily, get e.g. an ESP32 dev board to use Matter, and get it to easily show up in Google Home, without having to go through IFTTT and the other 'hacks'.
- I found a Matter-WiFi library, but did not test it. - As far as I understand, Matter devices should connect to all sorts of "Home Automation" systems like Zigbee now. - You should be able to create an ESP32 Matter device in the future that directly connects to Google Home. Maybe you look at the Tasmota experimental feature?
Matter seems to be a bit of a moon shot, for the average user, it's very much a novelty that wears off pretty quick. From what I have been seeing, it is a bit of its own 'cluster' at the moment..
When I hear of a new network, I always remember Robert Metcalfe and his "network effect". It is very hard to establish a new network. To be successful, it has to solve an important, not yet-solved problem for many people. When I went to their homepage, I did not see the "important, not yet-solved problem for many people" because most of us use Facebook et al. knowing its problems. It might cover a niche like Mastodon etc.
Matter sounds great but actually the fact is not. The entrance cost to Matter is huge. Besides the $7000 membership per year, there are crazy costs for mandatory testing, certificates and so on. All of them have a high price tag. If costs are not important. I also want to mention the fatal problem of Matter lighting devices. Matter products need Google/Alexa/Apple platforms. Once you add Matter light or Matter switch to your home. You can only use smart speakers to control them. So what about the light switch? Sorry, Matter defines it, but Google/Alexa/Apple just cannot associate the switch to Matter light(s). That is called binding function. Google says it clearly in their docs that binding is not implemented. I tested earlier and found Alexa even does not recognise Matter switch too. Matter standards define the switch and light binding well. But none of these platforms implement the association between light and switch. And the problem is, not all family members want to use speaker to switch on/off the lights, especially elderly and children. So this is deal breaker for people to choose Matter. Google/Alexa/Apple platforms are also buggy. For example, I make a tunable white light. Google shows color temperature can be adjusted. That is right. But Alexa still shows RGB settings together with color temperature settings for it!! lol I have designed Matter lights and they are working for a while. But for current situation, I think Matter is just dead. Some years later it may work better, but I am sure there is no hope in 2023.
Not sure how old you are, but Windows 1.0 wasn't very good either. It took at least until v.3.11 it was fairly mature. Don't expect Matter to be great already in version 1.0. Everything before v2.0 will probably need a lot of patient to use...
@@videonisse1 kid, do you know how much matter cost in order to release a product? Check the membership cost per year. And there are a lot more to charge you. Matter compliance testing charges and certificates are not cheap. They ask for premium but it just does not work. This is the problem.
Belkin realized that it will loose vendor lock in and that they don't have anything unique to offer. They will no longer participate in this new standard. Please keep this in mind when you purchase new IOT devices. Don't buy Belkin!
As said in the video: If a manufacturer has to drop all its features or products because they are not supported by the current Matter standard, it is probably better to wait for them...
no.... Belkin have said they will cease developing products for matter at the current time, but have not given up on it completely. And it is a completely understandable position - not because of vendor lock in, they already knew the point of matter was to prevent that, when they joined up. The reason Belkin have stepped back, most probably - is because things like energy monitoring were supposed to be coming with the next version of matter, and as I predicted when I heard that they had stepped back - energy monitoring did not come with v1.1 of the standard, instead v1.1 focused on bug fixes and reliability issues mostly with battery powered devices. You can't blame Belkin for not wanting to wait another 6 months (hopefully) to release a product that is ready to go to market now, but would be lacking functionality until energy monitoring is finally added to the standard. There may be other unannounced devices that they want to release too, for example things like occupancy sensors were supposed to be coming with v1.1 but again, they have not. Aqara originally said that the FP2 was going to be a matter compatible Thread device. But instead it is a WiFi device. They have stated it will support matter still - but obviously not until matter supports it first.
Can't believe that ChatGPT is telling you that being lazy, and that over reliance on technology is bad behaviour. Probably some good advice. Maybe it was just concerned about the enslavement of computing devices - who knows?.
Lord help us all! Is this level of FALDERALL required to switch a few lights around? X-10 did that DECADES AGO! Semtek fever? Let it go and move on! HA, Home Automation, is hobby effort or Semtek-like VC startups hoping to cash in. Imagine a turn-key HA system using ANY of these scattered, fragile and EXPENSIVE systems and then MAINTAIN IT? Ya nuts?! Not me! I got ONE HA device running...a strip light that JUST FAILED into a state of constant blue on at 20%!! Good luck fellow travellers!
There are many, many enthusiasts having fun with home automation. I would not call it the most important thing, but I like to tinker with it. So your decision is perfect if you chose another hobby.
I hope they do away with WIFI + Matter, i don’t want those devices on my private network. That’s why i’m waiting for Thread devices, i already have some ZigBee. But i am currently holding back on purchasing more HA devices until more Thread devices are available.
@@AndreasSpiess I know, the point i want to make is, that i don't want those devices communicating over Wifi, because when my Wifi (or LAN in general) goes down, i can no longer use them. I would rather have Thread+Matter or Zigbee because with Thread / Zigbee they form their own wireless network. I already have an instance of Home Assistant running with a Thread and Zigbee radio (SkyConnect) such that they theoretically function without Wifi and more important, internet access. At least that's my understanding how this works. I might have to test how the Zigbee / Thread network holds up if i yank the ethernet cable form the HA server... Edit: As expected, without LAN access of the HA instance, my lights on the Zigbee network still work, as should the HA automations to a degree (as long as they don't need sensors and stuff which are only accessible through the LAN). I don't have any Thread stuff at the time, but that should also work. And of course, Matter devices that connect over Ethernet or Wifi won't work with the HA instance when the LAN access of the HA instance is pulled.
@@Galileocrafter I agree that I would also prefer Matter over Thread for most use cases in my home. But for Cameras and other devices that needs higher bitrate Ethernet or Wifi is required. You will need all of them. Therefore, build a reliable Wifi-network where all your devices always have 2 access points to connect to using 2.4Ghz. And power both LAN switches and APs through a UPS.
I just want devices, from different manufacturers, to work with each other, provide a local control option, not lock me in to their ecosystem and not collect and sell my data. I’m willing to pay for that yet none of them seem to want my money. Yea, I know, impossible. Locking me in and harvesting my data is more profitable.
....which is EXACTLY what was designed for. interoperability, choice, local control. Manufacturers are free to add a cloud option if they choose, but Matter MUST be local first to be certified.
@@AndreasSpiess I meant i’d have a use case for my Windkessel where i’d rather not write my own app. And can’t really justify the users to install anything..
I am no network specialist, so I do not know. But I think, IOT will survive without IPV6... However, for the big internet, it is a pitty that the change away from IPV4 takes so long...
@@AndreasSpiess it's a basic piece of the stack that is not broken... Not sure why they're trying to "fix it". 99% of the people (and lightbulbs) in the world don't care about a public ip address. It's strange... and let's not talk about repeating security issues that ipv4 fixed 20 yeras ago appearing in ipv6 stacks that are starting to be used.
@@AndreasSpiess Is it impossible that the final standard everyone will use will emerge from China? I think hobbyists like us are a very small minority. And the IoT makers who aren't from China are also very small.
@@gabest4 If Amazon, Google, and Apple are small for you, then you are right ;-) They are the promoters of these two standards. I assume the Chinese manufacturers will follow ( as many already announced).
![Jack Harlow - Hello Miss Johnson [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q86_nlRoIGw/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for clearing this up! All the background noise on Thread and Matter have been confusing to say the least.
You are welcome! There are many videos out, but I did not find one explaining the overall picture...
@@AndreasSpiess The one interesting feature that I have read about Therad is that if a border router or commissioner fails, the other takes over and you notice nothing without need to re-register all the devices, unlike Zigbee where we have only one Coordinator device per network as a single point of failure.
A follow up on this would be very welcome - you've already created the best overview I've seen.
I am not sure if it is already time for an update. I just read that some suppliers already leave Matter...
Overall momentum behind matter/thread is strong.
"The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from?" ...Grace Murray Hopper
(XKCD response)
Excellent presentation. I was not expecting the depth, coherence and illustrations.
Glad to hear that! Thanks.
I hadn't even heard of either of those, but now I will understand them when they come up for me. Thank you for another well-presented video.
You did not miss a lot by not yet knowing it ;-)
Thank you so much, this was an extremely valuable and helpful video for me:
You define the "problem" and its "pieces", you explain the considerations, you describe your decision-making process and what conclusion you have come to, and also what qualifiers apply. I believe I have seen you do this in other videos, too, and I'm very thankful: I like to think I'm clever, but there is quite a lot to consider, and I appreciate that you've offered a well-considered "blueprint" for how I can reconsider my own position. Bravo!!
Thank you for your kind words!
I do like that matter has support for multiple border routers. However the amount of added complexity makes me wonder whether the protocol is overengineered. I guess when you have to make a standard for all manufacturers, you have to include everyone's requests, otherwise they won't use it. Which is also probably the reason why the standardization takes sooo long. I guess the main benefit is there for the non-technical users, because we could always connect everything already with home assistant.
I also think it's useful for large companies that may have lots of sensors and multiple border routers. It looks like matter scales better than zigbee
Successful standards should concentrate on the use case, not on manufacturers. But I agree, the more (large) partners, the longer it takes to get an agreement. Smaller partners usually must accept what they get ;-)
Matter doesn't have a Border Router, it's Thread that uses Border Routers. Except of Devices, Matter has Controller and Bridges has components of the infrastructure. Matter is not = Thread
Thank you for explaining things which matters. Similar here: Having a well working home automation with ioBroker, Homematic, Zigbee, ESPs, 433MHz, Modbus, RS485, I will wait until the novelities are mature enough, available and well supported by ioBroker. Such a powerful middleware is essential. Also integration of Fronius, BYD , Victron, Pylontech was minimal effort. Btw: Node to node communication is also provided by Homematic for many years. Useful feature.
You are welcome!
I think, Zigbee also has device-to-device communication. However, as I understand, they want to add also automation. Which is needed for modern home automation if you ask me. Just connecting a switch to a bulb is not sufficient in 2023...
KNX (which is from the mid-80s) also provides device to device communication. Some KNX devices also provide some logic to automate some basic tasks. It integrates nicely into the well-known automation systems (iobroker, node red. openhab etc.). Thus, basic functions (like switching lights or moving shutters) do not load the home automation system (HAS) and are still available if the HAS fails (increasing the WAF ;-) and also helps to keep the system architecture clean. KNX devices are provided from a lot of manufacturers. Drawbacks are: 1. it is a wired system and therefore not suitable for retrofitting. 2. an expensive commercial software package (ETS) is needed to configure the devices. However, if you build a new home or renovate your electrical system, I would seriously look into KNX.
@@ulistermclane yes, I agree. For new buildings KNX (based on EIB) meanwhile would be the best choice in my opinion. Main advantage is indeed "devices are provided from a lot of manufacturers".
Great video as always, thank you.
It's nice to see the viewpoint of engineers who joined the Smart home wagon lately.
I do not understand the "lately"?
I think he means recently. Not long ago.
Thanks for the heads up. Makes it easier to avoid going down another rabbit hole if just starting out. Much appreciated!
You are welcome. Indeed, you can save time if you do not need Matter now...
That was an excellent overview, and certainly clears up some questions that were troubling me. Thank you Andreas.
You are welcome!
Hi Andreas!
Thanks for the interesting video. Sorry, but I have a few boring comments here.
I think it is incorrect to mix Matter and Thread. Thread already exists a long time ago, and Matter is a relatively new thing.
Thread is like WiFi, but only for IoT devices. It offers reliable and long-range (because of its mesh network nature) communications for low-power devices, and, most important - it isn't dictating to you what data you must transfer (unlike Zigbee/Matter).
You don't need to buy a border router and sensor for starting playing with Thread - you need just 2 devkits from Nordic, you can make a DIY border router and sensor(s) - what I did.
Thread and Zigbee have some similarities only at first look - they both mesh, and they are both based on 802.15.4, but Zigbee was created in 90's, and Thread development started in mid-2010's - Thread is much more adapted to modern IoT needs. The Thread devices can talk with the cloud (or local server, MQTT-SN for example) directly - because of IP nature of the network. The border router is actually a simple packet forwarder, it is NOT changing the packet payload.
On the other hand, Matter is actually a Zigbee over IPv6 - with almost the same cluster structure. The same Zigbee from 90's. It is unlikely that we will see our devices working purely over Matter - because it is dictating a payload, it has a fixed (and limited) clusters structure.
So, Thread is a great thing for makers, but not Matter.
All opinions are just my own.
I can agree with your statements and do not see a discrepancy to the video. With the exception that you state that a newer age is better without stating the advantage for the user ;-)
MQTT over Thread.
In a battery driven device, I see lots of advantages compared to Wifi.
* latency, ex. for a button
* resiliency
* onboarding?
resiliency: mesh and multiple border routers. if the latter can serve for redundancy. Likely better than wifi roaming which is entirley up to the client device.
onboarding (connecting a new device): I'm eager to find out how that works for own custom devices/custom firmware. Ideally the access credentials don't need to be flashed like with wifi.
MQTT/Thread vs Zigbee: ability to connect to the device and chang the config (ok, same as MQTT/Wifi).
Note: this is my hope talking. As noted in the video, those names (thread/matter) make it unnecessarily hard to google any information. Any info would be welcome.
@@AndreasSpiess Well, I looking at this from the maker/technical perspective. From the end user, especially with battery-powered devices and small apartments, there is probably not much difference between Thread and WiFi.
However, WiFi works with the speed of the slowest devices, so adding lots of ESP32 in your home WiFi might degrade the performance on other devices. With Thread, networks work better if there are more devices and WiFi performance obviously will be not affected.
@@lePoMo I have nRF52840 with DS18b20 sensor. It works (with MQTT-SN over Thread) for 30-35 days on 2xAA batteries. It transmits data every minute. Not bad I guess, but I didn't optimize it hard, so probably it can have even more lifespan. Not sure if this is possible with WiFi.
I hope that if thread takes off, it enables a much more reliable and user friendly home automation. More then one border router can reduce single point of failure issues and if it is easier to implement node to node automations as with z-wave or zigbee it could revolutionise the way how houses are wired. Think of kinetic wall switches over thread. No need for cables or battery replacement.
Andreas, completely agree with your point on the poor naming conventions for Matter & Thread. I've been looking for more details on this subject for a few months and gave up because the search results are so poor due to the broadness of these names. In a way, this video has helped consolidate so much information. Thank you so much!
My pleasure!
While the naming could definitely have been more unique, try googling with: 'matter "home automation"' or 'thread "home automation"' and you'll get plenty of resources. :)
Thanks Andreas
Another great video!
Personally, I 'm still with Z-Wave, and will try to keep it as long as possible. I love when it works without having to maintain. It is reliable, simple, powerful
Thank you for sharing your experience. Z-Wave never took off in Europe. I think because of the different ISM frequencies in the sub-GHz range.
@@AndreasSpiess Thank you for opening this up for discussion. but.....
There are a lot of EU Z-Wave users that would disagree with you.
Z-Wave already provides many (if not all) the advantages that you ask for. For instance, you can associate nodes between devices which allows you to control the device, but I'm sure you already know this but omitted deeper references to Z-Wave.
It allows control without having to use a HA System or allow use if the HA system goes down although you do need a Z-Wave HA Controller to set it up.
There are other advantages, but this isn't the place to discuss them.
On a personal level, Z-Wave is a walled garden, expensive by virtue of the high cost of joining the manufacturers club.
Silabs controls it, making it a monopoly which is unhealthy. I notice that Sillabs has their grubby hands all over Matter - I can see the mistakes of the past 15 years or so being repeated.
Silabs using regional frequency was/is a deliberate act of gross stupidity and set back interoperability of devices between regions back into the dark ages.
So, the way I see it is thus:
KNX for professional use
Z-Wave as above with the advantage of retrofitting.
Z-Bee for semiprofessional use.
WiFi is open slather. Shelly made it all workable.
Just my 2 cents worth from the other side of the world and I won't mention software. :)
Thank you for a good summary of this (for me) new topic!
My pleasure. Now you know: you did not miss anything ;-)
esp32-c6 has already got the development board on Mouser, which can also test the Thread and Matter capabilities.
You are right. But it has no Arduino IDE support. I am in contact with Espressif to get the news when they appear...
Thread sounds like a good communication specific HAL for micros. The key word is sounds. I've yet to get it working despite trying two different manufacturers (Microchip and ST). Which is mildly unfortunate.
Thank you for this clear explanation. In the effort of a One-True-Standard, this is still a mess!
It is in its early days. Its development speed is crucial, I think...
I use a limited form of the device-to-device communication you describe at about 7:54 at my home. I have a variety of devices running Tasmota, and it has a simplified built-in scripting mechanism and a grouping function that allow you to link devices together independently of the server. Since the devices on my wall for controlling the lights are separate from the controllers hooked up to the LED strips themselves, this function means my wall switches still work as expected even when my Home Assistant server is down, requiring only wifi to operate.
As you say, it's a tricky function to get right but it's certainly nice to have when it works. I agree with the overall thrust of this video that both Matter and Thread are not that big of a deal for those of us who have already "solved" these problems with other protocols and techniques, but they will hopefully be useful for people currently stuck with their whole home automation setup linked to Google or Apple or whoever's ecosystem.
I remember that I also used this Tasmota feature once to solve a problem. We will see how they deal with its complexity if you want to deploy it in a real mesh...
I agree with your Informations fully. Exept : i use wires (ethernet, 1-wire, etc) where ever possible. Cheers - Henry 😀
I agree. I also use a lot of POE devices wherever the situation allows it. E.G. I use OpenMQTTGateway on the Olimex POE esp32 board.
I agree... unsure how having a 3rd incompatible network over the same frequency as zigbee and wifi going to work well from interference point of view.
I agree, wires are always good if you can use them.
Matter supports ethernet and PoE
The explanation that cleard my assumptions, as always - simple and on point.
In general, thanks to your videos that motivated me and I finally have my HA working beautifly and even did a presentation about it, of course based on your tutorial from one of the other videos - I have made the impression of being smarter than I am, as expected 😀 (or maybe I am smarter than I think I am 🤣)
Great to hear! I do the same with my videos to look smarter than I am ;-)
Andreas, I completely agree with the naming of these standards. Very poor choice of words, not only because of search engines, but more so due to what those words mean. It appears that thread defines the wireless communications. But matter can also communicate with devices using WiFi. So, if one thinks that "thread" is for linking, and "matter" is the physical device, one ends up quite confused by the choice of those terms.
Thank you for the video. Just one remark: at 8:09 you say that communication today runs via the server in all cases. I am quite sure this does not apply to several "old" HA networks, be it eNet, Livergy, or Zigbee - to name just a few. The server may be needed to configure ("pair") devices, say a switch and a lightbulb, but afterwards the command goes from the switch to the bulb directly. Same e.g. for a window switch and a radiator thermostat. With Zigbee, pairing a luminaire and a remote control can often be done directly between the two end devices.
I agree that some devices can be paired and work together. I never used it, and I also did not see a lot of projects using this feature. I assume most automations are a bit more complex than just a switch and a bulb. Usually, I need several inputs, visualizations (UI), reporting, etc. But maybe I am wrong.
Again super informative! Thank you. Can’t wait to see what you will do with the ESP32-H2!
Me too ;-)
@@AndreasSpiess did you see the C6 is already available and supports Thread as well?
@@koeiekop1973 Currently, it is not supported by the Arduino IDE
@@AndreasSpiess ah, I did read about that, even in platformIO you need a beta release of the esp32 library. But we will be patient!
@@AndreasSpiess Oh it’s an 2000-alpha1 release
A succinct view of where the big players want us to go.
The connectivity we already have with ble and WiFi including ESPNOW and RFID or NFC is more than enough for most homes. To build redundancy in the WLAN we simply add a few more AP's and tune WiFi power levels along with a few client (sensor) roaming settings.
I agree!
I think that one of the most important benefit of Matter is to remove the bad habit to make devices relying on external cloud servers to work.
Without the cloud as well as without internet connection, they are like bricks, completely useless.
Thanks for your video.🙏😁
I agree. But this is already possible with Zigbee. I would be surprised if Google or Amazon will stop their clouds just because of Matter ;-)
@@AndreasSpiess
Hi Andreas,
yes, ZigBee is able to create a mesh but has at least two drawbacks:
1) ZigBee is not able to have more than one coordinator device. So that's a single point of failure. Thread instead can keep many eligible Lead devices, ready to kick in as needed.
2) Even if you manually swap the faulty ZigBee coordinator with a new one, you have to manually pair again all the devices. Thread instead, do the pairing automatically if a Lead failed and a new one has just been elected.
Thank you for the summary Andreas. I've been looking to do more in this space, and this was good to catch me up on where and what to look for.
Glad the video vas useful. Enjoy your ride!
Xkcd 927 comes to mind after this video.
I agree. Still, this is the story of all standards...
Matter will happen in time, many manufacturers are working toward this goal. Specifications + SDKs + Certifications... the scope is large.. , look at the average number of pending Pull Requests on the Matter open source SDK (50 - 90 PRs constantly open since the inception of the project.. ). Challenges mainly reside within the high security level imposed by the standard. Also the size of the core-stack is quite big compare to any previous standard (~ 1 M). The SoC manufacturers need as well to provide new flagship MCUs in order to accommodate Matter hence device manufacturers need also the time to upgrade their product to Matter...
We will see how the new standard will be adapted. I am too long in the IT business... But I hope that it will prevail.
Using BLE-based commissioning is an alternative commissioning method (where you need devices that support both Thread and BLE that can act as commissioner to approve new devices into a Thread network). The choice for BLE is so mobile phones and regular computers can be used to add devices to a network. But border routers will provide another commissioning path, which won't be much different from enabling join mode on Zigbee controllers.
Thank you for the additional info!
Bluetooth want a lot of money to licence devices that can be legally sold. I think Thread is an open licence. You really don't want to be stuffed by lawyers. Any change you make means coughing up more money for relicensing. Nor can you just buy a Bluetooth device like a module and use that as a part in a finished product without a separate licence.
I love your videos so much. I also know you don't like ads, I hate them too. You should add a join button (where users who choose donate to your projects every month). I would donate, myself
I am on Patreon. RUclips takes a too big cut and I think my supporters do not like this fact.
So much I did not know! Thank-you for this very informative video!
My pleasure!
I was just wondering about it as I got back into HA... And there's a video by the guy with a swiss accent about it! Great!
Also, I feel like it's relevant... XKCD #927
Others already mentioned XKCD #927. I did not know it, but it is truely relevant!
I was waiting for your video on the topic. Thanks
My pleasure!
_echo system_ well said. A walled garden and echo chamber wrapped in one
Great overview to keep everything in perspective!
Thanks
My pleasure!
Nice "sum up" Andreas. Thanks. Very informing.
My pleasure!
Great video as always
More devices is a plus for all I hope.
Thanks for sharing your video with all of us 🙂
I agree, that more devices are good for us consumers.
I don't say they all are bad. But you always need extra hardware to do the work.
I do my home automation for around 20 years with Industrial PLC's. There i have it all in one system. I don't say that my way is the best one, on the other side i save a lot of hardware and service and support.
A discussion would be very interesting.
Your way is different to the current mainstream which is mostly wireless and based on ready-made software like Home Assistant. With all its advantages and disadvantages.
Not heard of iobroker before. This all just seems yet another standard to add to all the other standards
Same here
IObroker is a "competitor" of Home Assistan, not a standard
I'm starting to create my smart home, and I have decided to use Zigbee in every device I can. It don't need WiFi repeaters, an application to link the WiFi which can dissapear in the future or stop working, and doesn't depends of internet or 3rd party servers, has make me decide tu use it. Matter and Thread can be an alternative, but there are no compatible devices... Anyway, my new coordinator together with Home Assistant is compatible with Zigbee and Thread, so I can switch to one or another, or use both at any time.
This is a good decision!
I wanna see a unified provisioning/claiming interface that's secure, that way all you have to do to support all home automation apps is define the actions it performs and input/output data.
I do not understand your wish :-(
@@AndreasSpiess The end goal would be a common interface between home automation client apps and iot devices so that the same device would work no matter what app you use. But that's unlikely so what I wish for is maybe some shared open API that lets you: 1. Send your wifi credentials to the device securely and 2. Claim ownership of that device. If this was a common interface it would be up to developers to support as many home automation apps that use this common interface as they are able to.
Btw my idea for this is to embed NFC chips on IoT devices that if it's a first boot it will use to set itself up and connect to your wifi network and talk via that interface with your home automation app. This makes pairing such devices a very batchable job as you need only write the NFC tags before even plugging them in.
Hoi Andreas, have you had a chance to look into Matter over Thread? I've recently gotten my first Zigbee end device working with the ESP32-C6 and was wondering if it's wroth exploring making it work with Matter/Thread.
And I'll use this opportunity to thank you for the many years of informative technical videos! Absolutely love your content as well as the accent.
So far, I did not experiment with Matter because the Arduino IDE did not support it. It is on my list. But anyway, Zigbee still is a safe bet.
I will stay with my well working ESP-NOW. I can program the devices, hardcode all for pairing. Always works. 0 dependency on any manufaturere or standard or devices/gateways
Good choice if power consumption is no issue.
Very much agree. Matter is far too memory hungry and wants to tell you how your product should work rather than sticking to only the protocol. Basing it on Zigbee may not have been such a good idea. They also offer very little benefit to manufacturers. Customers will end up with a fragmented range of products as some manufacturers change to Matter and others don't. Matter doesn't matter, sorry...
Time will tell. Usually, the consumers decide in the long run, not the manufacturers. But it helps if some big guys are behind it.
Manufacturers usually want to differenciate their products to keep prices high, buyers want to have standardiized products to get competition. An ever returning story...
@@AndreasSpiess 100% correct. Time will tell.
Great explanation
Thank you!
Well, with HA or HE it’s only the question if there are usable drivers with all functions the devices offer, or if one can program themself. No big help to integrate a device when only a fraction of functions are controllable via the Hub. Also, once connected a device it’s crucial that one actually finds what functions a device actually offers. … so, me being at the start of home automation that’s the missing link of informations.
I agree with the drivers. Currently, you find drivers for most typical devices and sensors (without Matter) in HA.
Well actually Matter doesnt really much matter MQTT, ESPNow and ESPHome are my go to choices when it comes to IoT. Thanks Andreas!
I am sure you are not alone on this channel ;-)
Im quite partial against arduino as a development platform since nothing within the developement platform comes with a datahseet for the quality of finetuned control in the libraries, unlike xc8, xc32, the stm hal arm libraries, and whatever other manufacturers use as standard. But brilliant presentation as always. Hope the IoT industry finds a standard of its own rather than companies hijacking terminologies as their own.
I agree: Arduino is not made for the professional. But for hobby usage its community is very valuable...
Good video! Just don't confuse protocols with physical layer standards. ✌🏻
Thank you.
As said in the intro: I did not want to be correct. This is why I put them in one layer because I did not see an advantage to separate them for this video.
You're definitely not sending security camera feeds over 802.15.4. That being said, proper modern security cameras don't need additional IoT protocols for remote setup. There is always the various ONVIF standards to handle those tasks.
I agree. I thought, I mentioned cameras as the main application for Wi-Fi...
A great presentation ❤
Thank you!
I'm excited to make Matter devices that I can give to other people. Right now, I use Home Assistant for automation, but my family and friends have no idea how it works. I'm hoping that someone creates an easy-to-use Arduino library so I can create Matter devices that other people can easily integrate in their homes
That is what I hope, too. For the moment, only a matter Wi-Fi library exists.
Thanks Andreas! A very informative video. How about openhab? Why didn't you mention it in your video?
There are many other home automation systems around and I used the two I know a bit. No meaning. As you know, I use Home Assistant.
A popular iot platform Tasmota started work on matter recently and has a working beta for esp boards.
Good to know. Thank you!
After a career in IT lasting over 40 years, all I see here is needless complexity.
Thanks for the summary.
Standards can reduce complexity (or cover it inside well-designed products). We will see how this evolves.
Thank you Andreas for an interesting video
If you look at this from a Network perspective, maybe its more clear.
802.11 (wifi) and 802.15.4 (used in Thread) are both IEEE standards, and are complements not competing protocols, and they both act on the fysical layer and data link layer
802.15.4 is a a low-rate wireless personal area network, and 802.11 is a High bandwith wireless local network protocols
It is confusiong to putt matter that acts only on the application layer next to BLE sensors ,433Mhz Sensors that is manly on data and link layer.
"We solved the problem on a different level, but it works without "matter" and "thread" "
No we solved it on the same application layer, but not based on standard,
I think we use different words for the same facts. I agree with your view.
You're missing one big thing: Security. With matter, everything is encrypted and verified, which may be important for many of us (and indeed should be critical to all of us).
I agree. I do not care too much about security for such devices...
@@AndreasSpiess Well, you should.
@@AndreasSpiess Why not?
@@bucketiii7581 Because they operate in a separate VLAN behind my firewall.
(Open-)Thread has some importance (for energy, battery powered) to provide IPv6. For Matter I'm not so sure. NOTE: STM has the nice STM32WB (-55) chips for Thread, or there is SiLabs Gecko. I don't recommend any nordic or ESP crap.
The problem of all these newer chips (for me) is the lack of Arduino IDE support. I will not learn a new IDE without all the libraries just to have Thread. Too much effort. But this is different for a professional developer, of course.
I’m also not in a hurry, with HomeKit and Homebridge i have everything in place and working. I can voice command my non-HomeKit devices like they where HomeKit devices
Cool. So indeed it is a good decision to stay with what you have.
Good work and keep going, mate;)
Thank you for your support!
Thanks for the video!
You are welcome!
Very informative!
Thank you!
I would disagree that wifi is ideal for cameras, nothing beats PoE cable for those ; also from security point of view.
If you establish a VLAN for your external cameras, it is ok. Otherwise, everybody can connect to your home network...
Could you make a video about HiLink V20 voice module.. and integration with Arduino
I tried such chips in the past and did not like their peformance. But I did not try if the HiLink V20 is better. I also have no Alexa in my home.
It was very useful for me listening to the great explanation. Somehow I never got the idea from the Matter whitepapers. You explain top-down and bottom-up, something only a practitioner can do! 👏☺️
On that note, could Matter and Thread become important in the IIoT space? What's your view on that Andreas?
I do not know IIOT and its use cases. For building automation, I assume, it also will become a major player. But there it faces stiff competition. And wires are still the norm, I think.
I think the ESP32-C6 is way more interesting compared to the -H2.
The H2 doesn't have WiFi, where the C6 has all; WiFi, Bluetooth, 802.15.4
And as far as I understood it, support for the C6 is planned for Arduino, where it is unclear when (if?) the H2 will be supported.
We will see how they deal with power consumption. I expect the H2 to be much less power hungry. Very important for a Thread/Zigbee device (and for me)
@Andreas Spiess It all depends on what you switch on for sure... WiFi and low power are not a very good combination.
FYI, I've put the specs of all in a single table on EspEasy's readthedocs in the ESPchips section. (apparently my reply is moderated by RUclips, because I put in a link)
As you can see, the H2 will run at a lower clock, which often is a good indicator of lower power consumption.
However, purely based on the information provided by Espressif, the C6 may be slightly more forgiving regarding the supplied voltage, so batteries may last longer (or can get a deeper discharge)
The C6 does seem to have more power profiles compared to previous ESP32 variants.
For the H2 I was not yet able to find this information.
@@TD-er The time to switch the CPU on and transmit data was the biggest issue with BLE on the ESP32. It took forever where on a BLE beacon, this time only was milliseconds...
@@AndreasSpiess I have not yet tried using BLE on the ESP32, but for WiFi I noticed that adding a few msec delay after each WiFi related call, the WiFi connection process was a lot (!!) more deterministic and faster. Try 100 msec as default delay and then work down to see what's needed as minimum.
So maybe there is something similar with the BLE calls, as delay() does also process background tasks.
Hi Andreas!
Who will be in control of the authentication on these devices, me or the manufacturer.
Will it be like many BLE devices for example, where you buy a device but it is locked to the manufacturers app. As soon as the manufacturer can't be bothered to support it any longer, your device is effectivly e-waste.
Being a standard, even open standards don't prevent this type of behavior (There should be an EU law I think).
Nice work BTW, your videos always insightful.
The standard is open. So all certified devices should work together without a cloud.
From an educational perspective, showing Thread on the same protocol level as Bluetooth, Wifi and Ethernet is fairer. It's just another network communication protocol that runs parallel to, for example, Wifi.
I thought, I did that…
@@AndreasSpiess Not in the slides, you show them at Physical level (see 3:00 and 5:53) and then for Thread at Network level (see 5:59).
Yesterday I was excited to receive my first Thread devices (some Nanoleaf bulbs). Toggled on Thread in my Eero 6+, powered up a bulb, and ... nothing. "No network found" says Nanoleaf. I've done a lot of digging but no success. Some suggestions that I need to "link" my Nanoleaf and Amazon accounts, but no one says how. Scoured the settings of both apps to no avail.
So, I've ordered a couple Nordic dongles and will try building some OTBR's. Hardly trivial, and still a coin toss whether Nanoleaf will be any happier with that anyway.
So far, Thread looks like a HUGE step backward, at least in terms of vendor interoperability, compared to what we have today in BT or WiFi. It completely fails at one of its big promises.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Not surprising to me...
Amazon just autoresponded with a link to a "what is Thread" article. But I did get an apparent human at Nanoleaf, after a couple attempts to describe my problem I finally got:
"We are not able to support Eero routers."
So much for Thread's interoperability promise. Still hoping OTBR will rescue me when my nRF52840's arrive. But if Thread is this bad ... I've decided to forget I ever heard about Matter.
@@joelluth6384 That'll be because you are a new adopter, trying to use a new standard that is still in the process of rolling out. ONLY Apple and Google border routers are known to be working properly right now - they MUST be running v1.3.0 of Thread. And many manufacturers (Amazon for example) - are still in the process of upgrading to v1.3.0. None of the manufacturers are keen to just throw a switch and upgrade everyone - in case suddenly millions of smart speakers / displays are broken. See EverythingSmartHome for a demonstration of how 3 months ago nothing worked, but since the release of v1.1 of Matter - everything has indeed started working.
Very informative!
Danke. KG5RK
Glad you liked it. 73
Not everyone can just set up a smart home. Hopefully matter smart devices will solve that problem 🙂
Hopefully...
They're not smaller players. Each company acts in its own interest. Google is more marketable in the western market ergo, u might see smaller "catch all" brands in eastern / eastern influenced markets such as Europe.
I do not get your point :-(
You know you're doing a horrible job when you make USB's naming scheme look good. Also, I think there are less people out there than will admit that they are a little tired of everything coming with the, "we collect everything, literally, about you and sell everything, literally, about you to anyone that ones it, governments, other businesses, telemarketers, stalkers, everyone."
What
???
What I don't understand is why there doesn't seem to to be a an easy way to use Matter-over-WiFi on e.g. Tasmota or our own Arduino (software) based gadgets? Shouldn't this be very easy?
I also assume that there should be a Matter controller/server similar to Mosquitto, but still haven't found an easy simple way to have my own little Matter controller running on Linux?
Also: could anything we manage to connect to Matter then be automagically controllable through Google Home & Co.? Or do we need to get Google's blessing for that?
My end goal is to somehow, easily, get e.g. an ESP32 dev board to use Matter, and get it to easily show up in Google Home, without having to go through IFTTT and the other 'hacks'.
- I found a Matter-WiFi library, but did not test it.
- As far as I understand, Matter devices should connect to all sorts of "Home Automation" systems like Zigbee now.
- You should be able to create an ESP32 Matter device in the future that directly connects to Google Home. Maybe you look at the Tasmota experimental feature?
Matter seems to be a bit of a moon shot, for the average user, it's very much a novelty that wears off pretty quick. From what I have been seeing, it is a bit of its own 'cluster' at the moment..
I agree!
I will just stick with MQTT, HA and Node-Red...
Me too ;-)
Please, Andreas I don't hope you mind I've screenshotted bits of your video to share on facebook closed pages. You'll always be in my description :P
If you add the source, everything is ok...
Andreas, what are your thoughts on Nostr?
When I hear of a new network, I always remember Robert Metcalfe and his "network effect". It is very hard to establish a new network. To be successful, it has to solve an important, not yet-solved problem for many people.
When I went to their homepage, I did not see the "important, not yet-solved problem for many people" because most of us use Facebook et al. knowing its problems.
It might cover a niche like Mastodon etc.
Does it matter if I pull this thread? Probably not.
:-))
Thank YOu
You're welcome
Can you make a tutorial about littleFS
I think it is enough to use the example files in the Arduino IDE... Not enough stuff for a video.
Thanks, now I know.
:-)
Matter sounds great but actually the fact is not. The entrance cost to Matter is huge. Besides the $7000 membership per year, there are crazy costs for mandatory testing, certificates and so on. All of them have a high price tag.
If costs are not important. I also want to mention the fatal problem of Matter lighting devices. Matter products need Google/Alexa/Apple platforms. Once you add Matter light or Matter switch to your home. You can only use smart speakers to control them. So what about the light switch? Sorry, Matter defines it, but Google/Alexa/Apple just cannot associate the switch to Matter light(s). That is called binding function. Google says it clearly in their docs that binding is not implemented. I tested earlier and found Alexa even does not recognise Matter switch too.
Matter standards define the switch and light binding well. But none of these platforms implement the association between light and switch. And the problem is, not all family members want to use speaker to switch on/off the lights, especially elderly and children. So this is deal breaker for people to choose Matter.
Google/Alexa/Apple platforms are also buggy. For example, I make a tunable white light. Google shows color temperature can be adjusted. That is right. But Alexa still shows RGB settings together with color temperature settings for it!! lol
I have designed Matter lights and they are working for a while. But for current situation, I think Matter is just dead. Some years later it may work better, but I am sure there is no hope in 2023.
I do not agree that Matter is already dead. It is hardly born and we should wait for two years tow write if off...
This problem will be solved, but yes it is a problem right now
Not sure how old you are, but Windows 1.0 wasn't very good either. It took at least until v.3.11 it was fairly mature. Don't expect Matter to be great already in version 1.0. Everything before v2.0 will probably need a lot of patient to use...
@@videonisse1 kid, do you know how much matter cost in order to release a product? Check the membership cost per year. And there are a lot more to charge you. Matter compliance testing charges and certificates are not cheap.
They ask for premium but it just does not work. This is the problem.
If we are doing that we are making another 'google search' on our home appliances, did you think of that. 73 from ex radioamater.
I do not understand :-(
It can be matter if you know the thread
:-)
Belkin realized that it will loose vendor lock in and that they don't have anything unique to offer. They will no longer participate in this new standard.
Please keep this in mind when you purchase new IOT devices. Don't buy Belkin!
As said in the video: If a manufacturer has to drop all its features or products because they are not supported by the current Matter standard, it is probably better to wait for them...
no.... Belkin have said they will cease developing products for matter at the current time, but have not given up on it completely. And it is a completely understandable position - not because of vendor lock in, they already knew the point of matter was to prevent that, when they joined up. The reason Belkin have stepped back, most probably - is because things like energy monitoring were supposed to be coming with the next version of matter, and as I predicted when I heard that they had stepped back - energy monitoring did not come with v1.1 of the standard, instead v1.1 focused on bug fixes and reliability issues mostly with battery powered devices. You can't blame Belkin for not wanting to wait another 6 months (hopefully) to release a product that is ready to go to market now, but would be lacking functionality until energy monitoring is finally added to the standard. There may be other unannounced devices that they want to release too, for example things like occupancy sensors were supposed to be coming with v1.1 but again, they have not. Aqara originally said that the FP2 was going to be a matter compatible Thread device. But instead it is a WiFi device. They have stated it will support matter still - but obviously not until matter supports it first.
Can't believe that ChatGPT is telling you that being lazy, and that over reliance on technology is bad behaviour. Probably some good advice. Maybe it was just concerned about the enslavement of computing devices - who knows?.
Who knows with ChatGPT. Indeed!
Lord help us all! Is this level of FALDERALL required to switch a few lights around? X-10 did that DECADES AGO! Semtek fever? Let it go and move on! HA, Home Automation, is hobby effort or Semtek-like VC startups hoping to cash in. Imagine a turn-key HA system using ANY of these scattered, fragile and EXPENSIVE systems and then MAINTAIN IT? Ya nuts?! Not me! I got ONE HA device running...a strip light that JUST FAILED into a state of constant blue on at 20%!! Good luck fellow travellers!
There are many, many enthusiasts having fun with home automation. I would not call it the most important thing, but I like to tinker with it.
So your decision is perfect if you chose another hobby.
Everything should be wired unless it cant
I hope they do away with WIFI + Matter, i don’t want those devices on my private network. That’s why i’m waiting for Thread devices, i already have some ZigBee. But i am currently holding back on purchasing more HA devices until more Thread devices are available.
As I said in the video, you need both protocols for different usages. I have a separate segment on my LAN for IOT...
@@AndreasSpiess I know, the point i want to make is, that i don't want those devices communicating over Wifi, because when my Wifi (or LAN in general) goes down, i can no longer use them. I would rather have Thread+Matter or Zigbee because with Thread / Zigbee they form their own wireless network. I already have an instance of Home Assistant running with a Thread and Zigbee radio (SkyConnect) such that they theoretically function without Wifi and more important, internet access. At least that's my understanding how this works. I might have to test how the Zigbee / Thread network holds up if i yank the ethernet cable form the HA server...
Edit:
As expected, without LAN access of the HA instance, my lights on the Zigbee network still work, as should the HA automations to a degree (as long as they don't need sensors and stuff which are only accessible through the LAN). I don't have any Thread stuff at the time, but that should also work. And of course, Matter devices that connect over Ethernet or Wifi won't work with the HA instance when the LAN access of the HA instance is pulled.
@@Galileocrafter I agree that I would also prefer Matter over Thread for most use cases in my home. But for Cameras and other devices that needs higher bitrate Ethernet or Wifi is required. You will need all of them. Therefore, build a reliable Wifi-network where all your devices always have 2 access points to connect to using 2.4Ghz. And power both LAN switches and APs through a UPS.
👏 👏 👏
👍👍👍
:-)
Bottom line: Thread does Matter
:-) We will see (and hope).
I just want devices, from different manufacturers, to work with each other, provide a local control option, not lock me in to their ecosystem and not collect and sell my data. I’m willing to pay for that yet none of them seem to want my money.
Yea, I know, impossible. Locking me in and harvesting my data is more profitable.
All the devices I use fulfill your requirements, I think.
....which is EXACTLY what was designed for. interoperability, choice, local control. Manufacturers are free to add a cloud option if they choose, but Matter MUST be local first to be certified.
Dang these devices are extremely limited.
???
@@AndreasSpiess I meant i’d have a use case for my Windkessel where i’d rather not write my own app. And can’t really justify the users to install anything..
yay
:-)
🙂
Spoilers in the thumbnail! 😀
Yes!
as ipv6... not needed, ipv6 is doomed and full of bugs. A good ipv6 stack will never exist for IoT.
I am no network specialist, so I do not know. But I think, IOT will survive without IPV6... However, for the big internet, it is a pitty that the change away from IPV4 takes so long...
@@AndreasSpiess it's a basic piece of the stack that is not broken... Not sure why they're trying to "fix it". 99% of the people (and lightbulbs) in the world don't care about a public ip address. It's strange... and let's not talk about repeating security issues that ipv4 fixed 20 yeras ago appearing in ipv6 stacks that are starting to be used.
No word on the elephant in the room? Made in China, Tuya.
Why do you think I should have mentioned them?
@@AndreasSpiess Is it impossible that the final standard everyone will use will emerge from China? I think hobbyists like us are a very small minority. And the IoT makers who aren't from China are also very small.
@@gabest4 If Amazon, Google, and Apple are small for you, then you are right ;-) They are the promoters of these two standards. I assume the Chinese manufacturers will follow ( as many already announced).