Worth remembering and honouring that Capt. Hoover was awarded the Navy Cross while destroyer division commander in Task Force 17.5 for moving his ships alongside the USS Lexington to rescue survivors crew off the sinking USS Lexington CV2 at Coral Sea. He then commanded the destroyer screen for USS Yorktown during the Battle of Midway. Captain Hoover took command of the Brooklyn-class light cruiser USS Helena (CL-50) and saw her through the battles of Cape Esperance and Guadalcanal. Captain Hoover deserved better treatment from the Navy and Halsey in particular. It should further be a consideration that at that point his remaining force was then a considerable part of all that stood available to the US Navy in the Pacific, and would be for some time. Imagine if he had also lost either the Helena or San Francisco or even both, they were in an area that at that time was infamous for Japanese sub attacks.
@@briancooper2112 2 typhoons for Halsey, the first costing the Navy the sinking of the Hull, Spence, and Monaghan along with over 700 men. A court of inquiry was held after each disaster and though some desired retirement or otherwise, "Bull" kept his job. McCain wasn't as lucky.
One thing to remember is the Captain Hoover was the only surviving ranking officer at the time of the Juneau's sinking. After the Battle of Friday the 13th, (2nd Savo/1st Guadalcanal or whatever you want to call it), both U.S. Admirals and more senior Captains had been killed during the night. Captain Hoover had been defending USS San Francisco all night who was leaderless and heavily damaged as well as being probably rattled and without sleep. His decision making was the best that could be done in a bad situation, and it's truly not his fault. The comedy of errors is saddening, but, sadly, thus is war.
I agree with what you say about Hoover. He gave the best he had the best record. What more could he do? It wasn’t much we could do. The San Francisco bridge was gone and higher ranking officers were on that bridge because when the man I know came across from the Los Angeles, Dr. Maimouna‘s Said there were no high-ranking offices left on the San Francisco. The only rank he came across was a chaplain. Nothing above that there may have been another one, but I doubt it. Yes Huber should not have been reprimanded in anyway whatsoever he did his job he did the best he could. I hope someday the Navy will sit down and look at all these cases, and try to go back over them, and come to realize that these men were in a terrible situation, death and destruction all around them and then at the time they did the best that they could with what they had to work with one cannot ask for more than that and I pray God, some who have been tainted in this battle will be restored, and they’re on restored with it Just like we blame the one on Pearl Harbor. It wasn’t the animals fault any more than I believe it was the Philadelphia that poor captain committed suicide later on he was so hounded by those who were trying to destroy them he did the best he could. It is not easy to be on command I know I had but a team position as a commander for two mountain Gnade two companies and I’ll Telya it’s not easy one damn bad.
Outstanding once again I have ran out of words to say how impressed I am with what you put out can't thank you enough for another unbelievable awesome history lesson your the man
I has to take a moment to translate the story of George Sullivan….I was aware of the tragedy of the Sullivan brothers, but I’m curious how you came across the account of George’s last moments. I’m something of a military history nerd, and I was just recently at the USS Oklahoma memorial. There were three brothers lost on that ship too that I was unaware of until I visited the memorial. I love your work, and your shipwreck vids fill a long empty niche I never thought I would find. Keep up the amazing work, and I don’t know if you’ve already done one, but maybe a vid about the Oklahoma brothers would be a good follow up to the theme in this episode!
Hoover ended up with the Atomic Energy Commission after retiring in 1947. He was awarded a Navy Cross with two clusters for the battles of the Coral Sea, Cape Esperance, and Guadalcanal. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_C._Hoover
Not surprised about Browning. He had a well established reputation for being an absolute prick. It’s also worth noting that Browning was a complete failure as captain of the USS Hornet later in the war, where he was responsible for the avoidable loss of multiple aircraft and the death of at least one sailor. There was much rejoicing when Marc Mitscher and Jocko Clark finally got rid of him.
It boggles the mind to think about how a conflux of decisions (many of which weren't bad or intended ill) sealed the fate of most of Juneau's survivors and ruined the career of a good officer. It really is a Greek tragedy.
From the home of USS The Sullivans, DD537 - the 100 initial survivors were all on the main deck or on the birdge\signal wings - it is believed that all men inside the ship perished, including four of the five Sullivan Brothers. The 10 final survivors all said George, the oldest brother, survived because he had been injured in the initial battle, and was recovering on the deck for the second torpedo impact.
George's last moments are in the book, "Left To Die", a title I don't agree with. George was assigned to the Depth Charge racks on the stern of Juneau. He received a back injury when the first torpedo struck. He was in a life raft with one of the 10 that would survive and that man would tell his story. Also, although Juneau was sunk further from Guadalcanal there were many other men left in Iron Bottom Sound after the battle. From DDs, Barton, Laffy "Sunk", Cushing, Monsen "Sinking but still afloat", Aaron Ward "damaged and dead in the water. Then there was Heavy Crusier Portland, turning in circles with over 1,000 men aboard. CL Atlanta was close insure and small boats were taking off her crew.
I can’t fault Hoover for not stopping, but probably would have had Fletcher do a single high speed sweep simply to look for obvious survivors, but not stop for them. I do have a big issue with the lack of aerial checks afterwards, as Catalina’s could have made a huge difference.
I think you may be right, given that the _Saratoga,_ then the _Wasp,_ _North Carolina,_ and _O'Brien_ had all been torpedoed by submarines just two months prior. Two subs had sunk a carrier and a destroyer and badly damaged a carrier and a battleship in a mere two encounters. I would bet that he had submarines, and quite possibly the exploits of Weddigen and his _U-9,_ on his mind.
Hoover did what any prudent task force commander, or any commander should have done under the circumstances, he cut his losses and saved his command. If he would have stopped, that sub was still out there, he did not have adequate resources to combat the threat, thus his only recourse was to run and hope for the best. Could he have dispatched Fletcher to hunt for the sub, sure, but what would have happened if Fletcher became another floating hulk from the sub’s torpedo? Then you have a totally defenseless fleet of ships filled with sailors who become cannon fodder and even more lives would be lost. It’s horrible what happened to the Sullivan brothers, but how many more lives would have been at serious risk to save maybe one or two? This is not a movie, you’re not going to trade multiple ships and personnel for one or two individuals, it’s a horrible game of mathematics. Now as for Halsey, in retrospect he was much too aggressive and even foolish with risking limited resources in theater. He sailed into a typhoon, which was a needless loss of life and ships. His typhoon killed more sailers than Hoovers decision and there was no enemy action involved….
But Halsey, like Mc Arthur, was a media darling. The media made it so Halsey was untouchable. This is why so few people knew about the Battle off Samar prior to The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors. Nimitz knew trashing Halsey's hagiography would be to costly when they were fighting for funds to keep the navy going after the war.
I’m still new to your channel but one ship sinking you should look into is the SS Montebello just off coast of California by Japanese Submarine (think 1942 or later). Thankfully no deaths.
Hoover had to make an unfortunate decision, but it was the right one. He was responsible for the thousands of lives left on his surviving ships. Weighing that against the hundred or so max survivors from the Juneau, there was no other option. The only possible mistake was maybe not detaching Fletcher which I would have done; scare off or kill that submarine then circle back for survivors before it could come back. Fletcher's high speed and undamaged state would have allowed it to catch up to the convoy within a few hours at most.
Detaching Fletcher would have weakened the screen of his force; a difficult decision at best. Detaching her and risk more losses due to submarines versus or keep her for the screen.
I personally doubt that USS Fletcher could of scared off the submarine alone. The enemy probably did not know of USS Sterett's predicament. So there is a possibility they may of been able to use both in tandem to do a hard sonar search for enemy contacts (based on the trajectory of the torpedoes), but hunting an enemy that already has a firing solution on you is hazardous at best, and you can't just stop and try and pick up survivors as there were already numerous instances where submarines waited for and then sank the rescue ship. There's really no good anwser but Hoover cut his losses and regardless if it was the right decision is not really for anyone here or even Halsey to decide what was right in that moment. The only question I have is: At this time, Was there any operational float planes in this formation that could off been dispatched to search for survivors, or even the submarine?
What specific safety protocols overlooked by Command prior to receiving those torpedo strikes? Along with the pressure Halsey received from the “SOD” over losing the Sullivan Brothers (RIP) 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
for what i read about him, he was a person that over thinked, took action beyond its time and was wrong in a lot of ways. He also wanted that glory that most received and really, earned. bottom line, halsey was and incompetent officer. blamed others for his wrongs.
we had a cptn nickolson on our carrier, he was very hated. he put us on sandbars in san diego multiple times. one time for a week . he also had multiple collisions with piers, and other ships. he shot down our own chopper during an air show, he also over rode an admiral's advise on paying us in Hong Kong during a drug epidemic. and the list went on. They promoted him to an admiral. wow, the cptn i first served with that nicolson took over command was Cpt'n A.E. Hill, excellent officer and new how to run a carrier.. he was a beloved officer and a commander that was used for an a escape goat also.
On the Los Angeles that was a Dr. Momona so I knew several years ago and had dealings with his daughter married my cousin he was on the Los Angeles. He was part of the medical group. He sent a contingent over to the Juneau to help medical staff on that ship before she was hit with the last torpedo Believe that these people either went down with the ship or they came to the San Francisco. This may have been the group that was sent to the San Francisco. I could be wrong. I was led to believe that the group that he sent to the Jonah went down with the ship, it’s very possible they didn’t force his effort on San Francisco as part of the medical group who was awarded the navy cross. He was also at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. During the attack he was assigned to the Los Angeles had to do this over because of a lot of spelling errors I wear dentures now, and when I talk too fast, the words don’t come out like they should hope there’s not too much spelling mistakes and this forgive me if there is.
Hoover was sacrificed to a shortsighted USN policy. He was leading a force of three cruisers (two heavily damaged) and three destroyers (two damaged)...out of a force of _five_ cruisers and _eight_ destroyers. Because of radio silence he only knew that fully half the ships he'd sailed with were missing, and that the Japanese had sent at least _two battleships_ plus innumerable cruisers and destroyers, into the fray. Add in that two months prior a mere two Japanese submarines had managed to cripple a carrier and a battleship and sink a carrier and a destroyer in the area. Oh, and four cruisers had been sunk and one crippled at Savo Island, and another cruiser and two destroyers at Cape Esperance. I can see why he felt the need to preserve what was left of the USN assets in the theater. Not to mention that catastrophic magazine explosions had been proven to leave very, very few survivors. _Invincible,_ _Queen Mary,_ _Indefatigable,_ _Defence,_ and more recently _Hood_ had proved that fact. Risking the lives of the sailors and the ships (direly needed assets) under his command was likely more important than stopping or pausing to look for a handful of survivors. It's a hard truth, but that is war. I have always wondered if _USS Helena_ would have had a different fate had Hoover been in command at Kula Gulf.
Perfectly stated, especially given that a mere two submarines had removed two carriers, a battleship, and a destroyer in that area just two months before.
Couldn't they have they have used some of the ships boats to recover people and the fleet escapes, the boats could take survivors to shore or be protected from subs by aircraft
CL's like Helena only have a few boats and they take some work to get offloaded. Add on battle damage and those boats probably being full of holes or just a pile of splinters they probably wouldn't have been able to do that. There are also records of subs surfacing to have a go with the deck/AA guns on anything not worth a torpedo so there is a pretty good chance they would have been butchered in the boats if they had gotten them launched and kept going.
They would have needed to stop in order to safely launch their boats. Even if they did manage to launch some boats while underway returning to shore was no guarantee of safety. Aside from the airfield on Guadalcanal Japanese troops still controlled the closest islands and Japanese ships and planes still patrolled the area as well. The boats also would not have carried enough fuel to reach friendly territory which would have still meant spending days or weeks at sea.
Oh also Dr. Melonas was awarded the highest medal of China on the Chang Kai Shek for saving many Chinese nationalist soldiers who won route to Taiwan will check Kai-shek during day fall of Chen, Kai-shek regime
I want to ask everybody’s forgiveness I made a few mistakes spelling because I’m wearing dentures and I talk too fast and I didn’t go over this like I should have but where it says oh also Dr. Mellon us that is Dr. Mammone us every time I talk with my Denches the words come out to be something else, but I forget some time to go over it so I do apologize for the errors. Any spelling errors at all that I made a made here but I think you understand what I’m trying to get across, a new doctor Mammone us. There wasn’t a better human being in this world and him many of time. I appreciate the fact that I became good friends with him. He was a kind and good man when could not ask for a better human being.
Halsey should've been offed at the beginning of the war. In my honest opinion, he was a very replaceable admiral in the US Navy. There were several equally capable admirals that could have taken his place and gotten the job done and with fewer causalties and few debacles.
It really isn't, just look at the similarities between this incident and the Indianapolis. Same chain of command/comms breakdown. Same failure in allocating rescue efforts. Same scapegoating.
You really should further study the naval history of that time as that collection of ships were the surviving still semi-operable units of the fleet that did battle with Japanese forces the first night, Nov 13, of the 3 nite naval battle of Guadalcanal that involved amoung other actions US destroyers engaging Japanese battleships at machine gun range. A more desperate naval action has almost never happened in modern times and those units were ALMOST (save the USS Washington and South Dakota arriving last minute to save the day/nite 2 days later) the last US surface units still available to defend the island at that time.
@lightravenn Exactly the point of this video. The two primary US force commanders in this battle, Adms Callaghan and Scott, had both been killed in the action (Callaghan on the San Francisco and Scott on Juneau's sister ship Atlanta also sunk) so Hoover-who had performed heroically in several earlier battles- had been left as de facto senior officer. Literally half the original US force ships had been sunk or disabled leaving this group of survivers trying to withdraw and recover. The loss of Juneau with all 5 Sullivan brothers (and all that was involved there) was an embarrassing situation for the Navy (which would never allow all of a family group on one combat ship to happen again) added to Halsey's intemperate reaction (likely aided by his subordinate Miles Browning who supposedly had a previous "grudge" against Hoover) so Hoover became a scapegoat. Consider standard convoy practice where survivor rescue (unless special rescue ships available) were usually subordinated until enemy attack forces withdrawn or defeated due to need of maintaining surviving group strength and integrity for defense. Hoover's straggler group was practically all US surface force left to defend Guadalcanal until USS Washington and South Dakota arrived 2 days later to save the campaign. Later Adm Nimitz would not favor Halsey's knee jerk reaction (in fact Halsey years later would admit remorse on this) and Hoover would be exonerated but too late for his combat career afloat.
@@kennethhanks6712 My first comment came in anger because it was obviously used as an scape goat. No one above his chain of command could have treated him like that, and still they did it. His superiors knew he didn't have ASW capabilities, so I'm sure he would have been treated same or worse if he had ordered any other ship to go down trying to save some crewmen. There are many instances in history where a fleet kept going while one of them received fatal damage because of the perils of slowing down and trying to recover the wounded. And about the media issue of 5 brothers KIA, maybe the ones to blame where the ones that gave them orders to be on the same ship? It's like a big nonsense.
But she caught me on the counter (It wasn't me) Saw me bangin' on the sofa (It wasn't me) I even had her in the shower (It wasn't me) She even caught me on camera (It wasn't me)
You know what? They could called in that they saw survivor's!! The US Navy really really screwed up on this one!! 😑 And for Goodness Sake if you send ships to go look for Survivors you certainly don't stop anywhere else until you get the task you were assigned finished! This is just flipping ridiculous!! It's horrible to think what those men went through!! 😞 And you know what? I honestly don't feel badly about what happened to Hoover, because he very well could have spoken up LOUDLY about the survivors left to die!! Yes! Hoover could have stuck around and attempted to help those survivors!! So in my opinion Hoover got everything he deserved. The US Navy just really really screwed up. 😶
You really need to research a bit more the responsibilities of command in situations such as this. A similar situation was common in convoy operations when survivors of sunken ships had to be left, unless a specialized "rescue ship" available, until enemy attacks were repelled or exhausted and recovery efforts could be spared from rest of the formation without excessive risks. A commanders first responsibilty is his remaining surviving ships and not risking further loss without possibly inflicting greater damage to the enemy. Recommended reading for you would be "Escort" by D. A. Rayner, "U-Boat Killer" by Donald MacIntyre, or "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat, all three authors were naval escort commanders in WWII. A telling similar situation occurred at end of recent battle of Midway when damaged carrier Yorktown was being attempted to be salvaged and was torpedoed and sunk, along with destroyer USS Hammann, by Japanese sub I-168 and this was with THREE fully effective US destroyers trying to provide protective coverage. In the cold calculus of combat risk v reward Hoovers decision was correct, as vouched later by no less than Adm Nimitz but his exoneration came too late for his combat career afloat.
The other problems that the navy had was their codes were being intercepted and they didn't want any ship hearing any type of radio transmissions from either side. So they had complete radio black out. no transmissions for any reason. Its sad, but very vital. there is a saying thru out the military, Sacrifice few to save many. It still holds today.. The other thing that i hated during the war, was churchil and his gang of code breakers refused to acknowledge this to us and sacrificed thousands of lives.. if even they told us a little, we could have sank many more german and japinese submarines.. There were a lot of Me Me's in this war..
They did radio in. The recipients of the messages did nothing. If they had paused or stopped they would have been sitting ducks. In what way would that have been better?
@@mbryson2899 At least they could have tried to rescue as many of the survivors as they could!! How is doing nothing any better?? How hard is it to TRY??... Hoover didn't even bother trying..because he was too scared and or too big of a coward!!
The funny (I mean that sarcastically) thing about this, is when Halsey did the same thing with his INFAMOUS Bull Run at Leyte Gulf, he was treated much differently for doing the same thing...abandoning San Bernardino Strait and leaving the Taffy 1, 2 and 3 wide open. Only the strength and bravery of Men Like Earnest Evans and the USS Johnston along with the Hoel and Sammie B, helped it fro becoming worse...but still good men were lost when they should not of been. I truly feel sorry for Hoover and his treatment.
Solid work - informative and well produced!
Worth remembering and honouring that Capt. Hoover was awarded the Navy Cross while destroyer division commander in Task Force 17.5 for moving his ships alongside the USS Lexington to rescue survivors crew off the sinking USS Lexington CV2 at Coral Sea.
He then commanded the destroyer screen for USS Yorktown during the Battle of Midway.
Captain Hoover took command of the Brooklyn-class light cruiser USS Helena (CL-50) and saw her through the battles of Cape Esperance and Guadalcanal.
Captain Hoover deserved better treatment from the Navy and Halsey in particular.
It should further be a consideration that at that point his remaining force was then a considerable part of all that stood available to the US Navy in the Pacific, and would be for some time. Imagine if he had also lost either the Helena or San Francisco or even both, they were in an area that at that time was infamous for Japanese sub attacks.
Halsey should of been court martialed for typhoon and taffy 3.
@@briancooper2112 2 typhoons for Halsey, the first costing the Navy the sinking of the Hull, Spence, and Monaghan along with over 700 men. A court of inquiry was held after each disaster and though some desired retirement or otherwise, "Bull" kept his job. McCain wasn't as lucky.
One thing to remember is the Captain Hoover was the only surviving ranking officer at the time of the Juneau's sinking. After the Battle of Friday the 13th, (2nd Savo/1st Guadalcanal or whatever you want to call it), both U.S. Admirals and more senior Captains had been killed during the night. Captain Hoover had been defending USS San Francisco all night who was leaderless and heavily damaged as well as being probably rattled and without sleep. His decision making was the best that could be done in a bad situation, and it's truly not his fault.
The comedy of errors is saddening, but, sadly, thus is war.
"The comedy of errors is saddening"
Not sure if 'comedy' is the best word to use here.
I agree with what you say about Hoover. He gave the best he had the best record. What more could he do? It wasn’t much we could do. The San Francisco bridge was gone and higher ranking officers were on that bridge because when the man I know came across from the Los Angeles, Dr. Maimouna‘s Said there were no high-ranking offices left on the San Francisco. The only rank he came across was a chaplain. Nothing above that there may have been another one, but I doubt it. Yes Huber should not have been reprimanded in anyway whatsoever he did his job he did the best he could. I hope someday the Navy will sit down and look at all these cases, and try to go back over them, and come to realize that these men were in a terrible situation, death and destruction all around them and then at the time they did the best that they could with what they had to work with one cannot ask for more than that and I pray God, some who have been tainted in this battle will be restored, and they’re on restored with it Just like we blame the one on Pearl Harbor. It wasn’t the animals fault any more than I believe it was the Philadelphia that poor captain committed suicide later on he was so hounded by those who were trying to destroy them he did the best he could. It is not easy to be on command I know I had but a team position as a commander for two mountain Gnade two companies and I’ll Telya it’s not easy one damn bad.
Outstanding once again I have ran out of words to say how impressed I am with what you put out can't thank you enough for another unbelievable awesome history lesson your the man
I has to take a moment to translate the story of George Sullivan….I was aware of the tragedy of the Sullivan brothers, but I’m curious how you came across the account of George’s last moments. I’m something of a military history nerd, and I was just recently at the USS Oklahoma memorial. There were three brothers lost on that ship too that I was unaware of until I visited the memorial. I love your work, and your shipwreck vids fill a long empty niche I never thought I would find. Keep up the amazing work, and I don’t know if you’ve already done one, but maybe a vid about the Oklahoma brothers would be a good follow up to the theme in this episode!
Hoover ended up with the Atomic Energy Commission after retiring in 1947. He was awarded a Navy Cross with two clusters for the battles of the Coral Sea, Cape Esperance, and Guadalcanal.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_C._Hoover
Not surprised about Browning. He had a well established reputation for being an absolute prick. It’s also worth noting that Browning was a complete failure as captain of the USS Hornet later in the war, where he was responsible for the avoidable loss of multiple aircraft and the death of at least one sailor. There was much rejoicing when Marc Mitscher and Jocko Clark finally got rid of him.
It boggles the mind to think about how a conflux of decisions (many of which weren't bad or intended ill) sealed the fate of most of Juneau's survivors and ruined the career of a good officer. It really is a Greek tragedy.
From the home of USS The Sullivans, DD537 - the 100 initial survivors were all on the main deck or on the birdge\signal wings - it is believed that all men inside the ship perished, including four of the five Sullivan Brothers. The 10 final survivors all said George, the oldest brother, survived because he had been injured in the initial battle, and was recovering on the deck for the second torpedo impact.
I read that AL made it off too and another survivor said they saw Joe on a raft with his head split and matt and frank went down with the ship.
George's last moments are in the book, "Left To Die", a title I don't agree with. George was assigned to the Depth Charge racks on the stern of Juneau. He received a back injury when the first torpedo struck. He was in a life raft with one of the 10 that would survive and that man would tell his story. Also, although Juneau was sunk further from Guadalcanal there were many other men left in Iron Bottom Sound after the battle. From DDs, Barton, Laffy "Sunk", Cushing, Monsen "Sinking but still afloat", Aaron Ward "damaged and dead in the water. Then there was Heavy Crusier Portland, turning in circles with over 1,000 men aboard. CL Atlanta was close insure and small boats were taking off her crew.
I can’t fault Hoover for not stopping, but probably would have had Fletcher do a single high speed sweep simply to look for obvious survivors, but not stop for them. I do have a big issue with the lack of aerial checks afterwards, as Catalina’s could have made a huge difference.
I wonder if the fates of HMS Aboukir, Hogue, and Cressy were on Hoover's mind when he made his decision.
I think you may be right, given that the _Saratoga,_ then the _Wasp,_ _North Carolina,_ and _O'Brien_ had all been torpedoed by submarines just two months prior. Two subs had sunk a carrier and a destroyer and badly damaged a carrier and a battleship in a mere two encounters.
I would bet that he had submarines, and quite possibly the exploits of Weddigen and his _U-9,_ on his mind.
Hoover did what any prudent task force commander, or any commander should have done under the circumstances, he cut his losses and saved his command. If he would have stopped, that sub was still out there, he did not have adequate resources to combat the threat, thus his only recourse was to run and hope for the best. Could he have dispatched Fletcher to hunt for the sub, sure, but what would have happened if Fletcher became another floating hulk from the sub’s torpedo? Then you have a totally defenseless fleet of ships filled with sailors who become cannon fodder and even more lives would be lost. It’s horrible what happened to the Sullivan brothers, but how many more lives would have been at serious risk to save maybe one or two? This is not a movie, you’re not going to trade multiple ships and personnel for one or two individuals, it’s a horrible game of mathematics.
Now as for Halsey, in retrospect he was much too aggressive and even foolish with risking limited resources in theater. He sailed into a typhoon, which was a needless loss of life and ships. His typhoon killed more sailers than Hoovers decision and there was no enemy action involved….
But Halsey, like Mc Arthur, was a media darling. The media made it so Halsey was untouchable. This is why so few people knew about the Battle off Samar prior to The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors. Nimitz knew trashing Halsey's hagiography would be to costly when they were fighting for funds to keep the navy going after the war.
The more I learn about Halsey, the less I respect him and his decisions.
Will there be a video about the wreck of the Montevideo Maru?
I’m still new to your channel but one ship sinking you should look into is the SS Montebello just off coast of California by Japanese Submarine (think 1942 or later). Thankfully no deaths.
The same thing happened to the survivors of the Samuel B. Roberts.
It's interesting the sullivan bros were mentioned, but not the rule the navy put in place.
Wasn't the Juneau also hit by the San Francisco in the prior night action?
Atlanta was hit by fire from San Francisco after she was torpedoed and adrift.
Hoover had to make an unfortunate decision, but it was the right one. He was responsible for the thousands of lives left on his surviving ships. Weighing that against the hundred or so max survivors from the Juneau, there was no other option. The only possible mistake was maybe not detaching Fletcher which I would have done; scare off or kill that submarine then circle back for survivors before it could come back. Fletcher's high speed and undamaged state would have allowed it to catch up to the convoy within a few hours at most.
Detaching Fletcher would have weakened the screen of his force; a difficult decision at best. Detaching her and risk more losses due to submarines versus or keep her for the screen.
I personally doubt that USS Fletcher could of scared off the submarine alone. The enemy probably did not know of USS Sterett's predicament. So there is a possibility they may of been able to use both in tandem to do a hard sonar search for enemy contacts (based on the trajectory of the torpedoes), but hunting an enemy that already has a firing solution on you is hazardous at best, and you can't just stop and try and pick up survivors as there were already numerous instances where submarines waited for and then sank the rescue ship. There's really no good anwser but Hoover cut his losses and regardless if it was the right decision is not really for anyone here or even Halsey to decide what was right in that moment. The only question I have is: At this time, Was there any operational float planes in this formation that could off been dispatched to search for survivors, or even the submarine?
WOW it Didn't go as planned
What specific safety protocols overlooked by Command prior to receiving those torpedo strikes? Along with the pressure Halsey received from the “SOD” over losing the Sullivan Brothers (RIP) 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
I hate to say it but "The Hoover Remover" is a great nickname
The sheer hypocrisy of Halsey is mind boggling.
Yeah the fact he was never fired for his screw ups suggests he had favoritism by someone in higher up
for what i read about him, he was a person that over thinked, took action beyond its time and was wrong in a lot of ways. He also wanted that glory that most received and really, earned. bottom line, halsey was and incompetent officer. blamed others for his wrongs.
a paper admiral if you will...
Ever notice there's a Nimitiz Class Carrier but not even a garbage scowl Halsey? The Navy got it right, finally.
"Scow" not "scowl." Sorry.
The Atlanta class anti aircraft light cruisers were floating time bombs.
Seems to be the cass as she was the sister shop inianapolis
@@symoncabral8609 indy was a heavy cruiser.
Halsey sure was enthusiastic about persecuting others for "failures of leadership," when he himself was guilty of gross negligence as a commander.
Skapegoating something the navy seems to do well
we had a cptn nickolson on our carrier, he was very hated. he put us on sandbars in san diego multiple times. one time for a week . he also had multiple collisions with piers, and other ships. he shot down our own chopper during an air show, he also over rode an admiral's advise on paying us in Hong Kong during a drug epidemic. and the list went on. They promoted him to an admiral. wow, the cptn i first served with that nicolson took over command was Cpt'n A.E. Hill, excellent officer and new how to run a carrier.. he was a beloved officer and a commander that was used for an a escape goat also.
On the Los Angeles that was a Dr. Momona so I knew several years ago and had dealings with his daughter married my cousin he was on the Los Angeles. He was part of the medical group. He sent a contingent over to the Juneau to help medical staff on that ship before she was hit with the last torpedo Believe that these people either went down with the ship or they came to the San Francisco. This may have been the group that was sent to the San Francisco. I could be wrong. I was led to believe that the group that he sent to the Jonah went down with the ship, it’s very possible they didn’t force his effort on San Francisco as part of the medical group who was awarded the navy cross. He was also at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. During the attack he was assigned to the Los Angeles had to do this over because of a lot of spelling errors I wear dentures now, and when I talk too fast, the words don’t come out like they should hope there’s not too much spelling mistakes and this forgive me if there is.
Hoover was sacrificed to a shortsighted USN policy.
He was leading a force of three cruisers (two heavily damaged) and three destroyers (two damaged)...out of a force of _five_ cruisers and _eight_ destroyers. Because of radio silence he only knew that fully half the ships he'd sailed with were missing, and that the Japanese had sent at least _two battleships_ plus innumerable cruisers and destroyers, into the fray.
Add in that two months prior a mere two Japanese submarines had managed to cripple a carrier and a battleship and sink a carrier and a destroyer in the area.
Oh, and four cruisers had been sunk and one crippled at Savo Island, and another cruiser and two destroyers at Cape Esperance.
I can see why he felt the need to preserve what was left of the USN assets in the theater.
Not to mention that catastrophic magazine explosions had been proven to leave very, very few survivors. _Invincible,_ _Queen Mary,_ _Indefatigable,_ _Defence,_ and more recently _Hood_ had proved that fact.
Risking the lives of the sailors and the ships (direly needed assets) under his command was likely more important than stopping or pausing to look for a handful of survivors. It's a hard truth, but that is war.
I have always wondered if _USS Helena_ would have had a different fate had Hoover been in command at Kula Gulf.
To the a fleet of damaged ships one has to leave the Fate of a few behind. Still more could have been done.
Hoover did what was needed to do otherwise was to invite a repeat of Aboukir Cressy and Hogue in WWI
Perfectly stated, especially given that a mere two submarines had removed two carriers, a battleship, and a destroyer in that area just two months before.
What happened to Juneau is just as tragic, if not more so than the Indianapolis but her crews story hardly receives as much attention
They're both awful but incredibly the juneau had a worse survival rate than the indianapolis
Couldn't they have they have used some of the ships boats to recover people and the fleet escapes, the boats could take survivors to shore or be protected from subs by aircraft
CL's like Helena only have a few boats and they take some work to get offloaded. Add on battle damage and those boats probably being full of holes or just a pile of splinters they probably wouldn't have been able to do that. There are also records of subs surfacing to have a go with the deck/AA guns on anything not worth a torpedo so there is a pretty good chance they would have been butchered in the boats if they had gotten them launched and kept going.
They would have needed to stop in order to safely launch their boats. Even if they did manage to launch some boats while underway returning to shore was no guarantee of safety. Aside from the airfield on Guadalcanal Japanese troops still controlled the closest islands and Japanese ships and planes still patrolled the area as well. The boats also would not have carried enough fuel to reach friendly territory which would have still meant spending days or weeks at sea.
Halsey made a number of mistakes. This is one of them.
God Bless Bill Ball ❤
Oh also Dr. Melonas was awarded the highest medal of China on the Chang Kai Shek for saving many Chinese nationalist soldiers who won route to Taiwan will check Kai-shek during day fall of Chen, Kai-shek regime
I want to ask everybody’s forgiveness I made a few mistakes spelling because I’m wearing dentures and I talk too fast and I didn’t go over this like I should have but where it says oh also Dr. Mellon us that is Dr. Mammone us every time I talk with my Denches the words come out to be something else, but I forget some time to go over it so I do apologize for the errors. Any spelling errors at all that I made a made here but I think you understand what I’m trying to get across, a new doctor Mammone us. There wasn’t a better human being in this world and him many of time. I appreciate the fact that I became good friends with him. He was a kind and good man when could not ask for a better human being.
Halsey should've been offed at the beginning of the war. In my honest opinion, he was a very replaceable admiral in the US Navy. There were several equally capable admirals that could have taken his place and gotten the job done and with fewer causalties and few debacles.
Hind sight is always 2020
It really isn't, just look at the similarities between this incident and the Indianapolis.
Same chain of command/comms breakdown.
Same failure in allocating rescue efforts.
Same scapegoating.
Oh I agree him and Mcvie got totally screwed ,leaders screwed the pooch
I like to think i have hindsight in 2023 :)
General incompetence
all the sailors lost their hands? Thats weird
She was vaporized u.s.s juneau
Maybe the mistake started when they only had one working anti sub ship? Who gave the order to make that task force of damaged ships with only one ASW?
You really should further study the naval history of that time as that collection of ships were the surviving still semi-operable units of the fleet that did battle with Japanese forces the first night, Nov 13, of the 3 nite naval battle of Guadalcanal that involved amoung other actions US destroyers engaging Japanese battleships at machine gun range.
A more desperate naval action has almost never happened in modern times and those units were ALMOST (save the USS Washington and South Dakota arriving last minute to save the day/nite 2 days later) the last US surface units still available to defend the island at that time.
@@kennethhanks6712 then why put the fault on him? He did what he could with what he had.
@lightravenn Exactly the point of this video. The two primary US force commanders in this battle, Adms Callaghan and Scott, had both been killed in the action (Callaghan on the San Francisco and Scott on Juneau's sister ship Atlanta also sunk) so Hoover-who had performed heroically in several earlier battles- had been left as de facto senior officer. Literally half the original US force ships had been sunk or disabled leaving this group of survivers trying to withdraw and recover.
The loss of Juneau with all 5 Sullivan brothers (and all that was involved there) was an embarrassing situation for the Navy (which would never allow all of a family group on one combat ship to happen again) added to Halsey's intemperate reaction (likely aided by his subordinate Miles Browning who supposedly had a previous "grudge" against Hoover) so Hoover became a scapegoat.
Consider standard convoy practice where survivor rescue (unless special rescue ships available) were usually subordinated until enemy attack forces withdrawn or defeated due to need of maintaining surviving group strength and integrity for defense.
Hoover's straggler group was practically all US surface force left to defend Guadalcanal until USS Washington and South Dakota arrived 2 days later to save the campaign.
Later Adm Nimitz would not favor Halsey's knee jerk reaction (in fact Halsey years later would admit remorse on this) and Hoover would be exonerated but too late for his combat career afloat.
@@kennethhanks6712 My first comment came in anger because it was obviously used as an scape goat. No one above his chain of command could have treated him like that, and still they did it. His superiors knew he didn't have ASW capabilities, so I'm sure he would have been treated same or worse if he had ordered any other ship to go down trying to save some crewmen. There are many instances in history where a fleet kept going while one of them received fatal damage because of the perils of slowing down and trying to recover the wounded. And about the media issue of 5 brothers KIA, maybe the ones to blame where the ones that gave them orders to be on the same ship? It's like a big nonsense.
I didn’t do it
But she caught me on the counter (It wasn't me)
Saw me bangin' on the sofa (It wasn't me)
I even had her in the shower (It wasn't me)
She even caught me on camera (It wasn't me)
You know what? They could called in that they saw survivor's!!
The US Navy really really screwed up on this one!! 😑
And for Goodness Sake if you send ships to go look for Survivors you certainly don't stop anywhere else until you get the task you were assigned finished!
This is just flipping ridiculous!!
It's horrible to think what those men went through!! 😞
And you know what?
I honestly don't feel badly about what happened to Hoover, because he very well could have spoken up LOUDLY about the survivors left to die!!
Yes!
Hoover could have stuck around and attempted to help those survivors!!
So in my opinion Hoover got everything he deserved.
The US Navy just really really screwed up. 😶
Reminds me of the foul ups when the Indianapolis was sunk in 1945.
You really need to research a bit more the responsibilities of command in situations such as this. A similar situation was common in convoy operations when survivors of sunken ships had to be left, unless a specialized "rescue ship" available, until enemy attacks were repelled or exhausted and recovery efforts could be spared from rest of the formation without excessive risks.
A commanders first responsibilty is his remaining surviving ships and not risking further loss without possibly inflicting greater damage to the enemy.
Recommended reading for you would be "Escort" by D. A. Rayner, "U-Boat Killer" by Donald MacIntyre, or "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat, all three authors were naval escort commanders in WWII.
A telling similar situation occurred at end of recent battle of Midway when damaged carrier Yorktown was being attempted to be salvaged and was torpedoed and sunk, along with destroyer USS Hammann, by Japanese sub I-168 and this was with THREE fully effective US destroyers trying to provide protective coverage.
In the cold calculus of combat risk v reward Hoovers decision was correct, as vouched later by no less than Adm Nimitz but his exoneration came too late for his combat career afloat.
The other problems that the navy had was their codes were being intercepted and they didn't want any ship hearing any type of radio transmissions from either side. So they had complete radio black out. no transmissions for any reason. Its sad, but very vital. there is a saying thru out the military, Sacrifice few to save many. It still holds today.. The other thing that i hated during the war, was churchil and his gang of code breakers refused to acknowledge this to us and sacrificed thousands of lives.. if even they told us a little, we could have sank many more german and japinese submarines.. There were a lot of Me Me's in this war..
They did radio in. The recipients of the messages did nothing.
If they had paused or stopped they would have been sitting ducks. In what way would that have been better?
@@mbryson2899 At least they could have tried to rescue as many of the survivors as they could!!
How is doing nothing any better??
How hard is it to TRY??...
Hoover didn't even bother trying..because he was too scared and or too big of a coward!!
The funny (I mean that sarcastically) thing about this, is when Halsey did the same thing with his INFAMOUS Bull Run at Leyte Gulf, he was treated much differently for doing the same thing...abandoning San Bernardino Strait and leaving the Taffy 1, 2 and 3 wide open. Only the strength and bravery of Men Like Earnest Evans and the USS Johnston along with the Hoel and Sammie B, helped it fro becoming worse...but still good men were lost when they should not of been. I truly feel sorry for Hoover and his treatment.
I'm curious, did Halsey ever do anything right. He kinda reminds me of a teflon fraud of a leader.