"The daemonettes are taking a pounding, but they're dishing it back!" You know, somehow I get the feeling the daemonettes are totally on board with this.
You know, I think an anti-large competition would be cool to see! Take all of the best anti-large units from each faction and put them against increasingly stronger large units. You could start at something weak like Kossovite Dervishes, then go up to Ogre brutes (or whatever their base infantry unit is) and just work your way up, seeing which anti large unit is best
That's why Kislev is more flexible human faction, you don't need to rely on standing close to each other that makes killing with spells easier Edit: grammar Wood Elven
I really want to play Cathay but I feel the need to keep units so close is spooky. I like wide flanks and open formations to controll the field, I'm not sure how close they have to be, but against strong AOE spells Cathay might get dunked by other players on due to the harmony mechanic . I know tzeench has some spells and the ogers have some artillery that mulch formation lines that have very generous area damage.
0:55 Aww, that's not fair! I wanted to see how many kills they could get before kicking the bucket! Who knows, they might actually be really cost effective.
@@mcmarkmarkson7115 The lore is more chaotic than Chaos itself and changes all the time. In one armybook it outright says Khorne is stronger than everyone else, and that Khorne+Tzeentch cooperation is stronger than any other pairing. Then there are lore sources that says Nurgle becomes the strongest when a great plague ravages the world, and become the weakest when its over. And there's another story where Tzeentch was the most powerful of all and the 3 others have to team up to beat him down.
@@rubz1390 I don’t think that’s contradictory the chaos gods power changes depending on what’s going on in the world Khorne is (usually) the strongest because of the constant warfare, Nurgle becomes stronger when giant plagues ravage the world etc.
@@mcmarkmarkson7115 EH. Nobody ever respects that when it's time for Skink Javelins to throw their third javelin and beat something a thousand gold more expensive than them in melee.
In streamer gameplay deamonettes and slanneshi units in general move deceptively quick, to the point were accidental flanks occur regularly making them extremely effective in open battles... arguably one of the best armies in the base game
@@vampuricknight1 I don't do much pvp but in campaign I always throw something heavy down the middle to get most things attack then swarm with a deamonettes and chariots doom stack and flank with everything. It is super nasty.
If Bloodletters had lost, there would be riots. I think their lower cost than Daemonettes is justified given that they aren't as good at flanking and they're on a 1-dimensional roster that *needs* to be good at charging cost-efficient infantry into the enemy frontline because they have no other option.
They are also faster and has a debuff who help others units can stack to multiple units if they hit simultaneously more than 1 unit. Bloodletters are more damage dealer and daemonettes are more ''good in everything'' since they are less kited and can help others units surviving. So yes Bloodletters is legit here. And as someone said : Khorne has little buffs while Slaanesh have tons.
When it comes to cathay units they have a "fight in formation" key toggled on by default this actually hurts them in melee battles against other melee infantry and is only good for holding tight formations while your other units support them. You will see a lot of the cathay units turning there back to the enemy and walking back one line in the formation hurting dps of there own and increasing that of the enemy. It probably wouldn't have changed most of the matchups but it certainly would have helped.
Might be a broader issue with unit movement in general,movement is really shit in TWW3,i went back to 2 to check it out and damn is there a massive difference.
I think counter charging the pink horrors was a mistake. It would've been interesting to see the replays where they kept firing from the back lines, considering their sub par melee stats but pretty respectable missile damage
@@icecreambrainz8726 the charge bonus wouldn't last long enough anyways. Charging with the pink horrors puts more of them in melee, that probably makes the fights shorter, especially vs bloodletters and daemonettes. If the pink horrors drip feed models that gives them more time to use the ranged attack.
Pink horrors are a skirmish unit. You should pull them out when their regenerating shield drops and kite while the shield regens to get more ranged volleys in. Horrors will need more micro
Using Pink horrors like melee infantry is like using Orc Arrer Boyz with most of their ammo to charge their front line. Honestly I feel like Blue horrors would be used as that role even if they have slightly less stats. With their limited range attack and listed as melee infantry... Granted I'd expect blues to lose to all. Idk I feel like Forsaken would fit better, tier two just like the pinks as well as you know. Being true melee infantry, and not a "Well I didn't bother getting real infantry to use for this fight."
Best Infantry Competitions=Weak Worst Infantry Competitions=Strong I also wonder if Sword and Board Tzar Guard would do better since Daemons dont have a lot of armor and the higher melee defense would keep em alive longer
@@Collinpawns GW wins against S&B cuz GB got AP dmg, but if they're fighting against a target with only 50 armor, AP doesn't matter as much (compared to the heavily 90 armor units). So the advantage GW gets from having higher AP is lost while S&B stays effective.
@@the_dropbear4392 the way zerk chooses which unit to use from each faction is by determining which unit beats all other units in its own faction. He's said this many times in previous videos comparing the unit types. Why would he change the way he's done it for years?
For the weirder inclusions like the Celestial Dragon Guard, it might be helpful to include a metric like "but how long did they last?" since the conclusion is kinda foregone but getting an idea of how much time they can buy you in each match-up might help out a bit too. Sorry if this is a duplicate comment, I didn't see anyone else saying it.
The plaguebearers disintegrating with ~2k hp remaining really puts a damper on their hp advantage, it'll be more like a illusion of sustain when you check in on a unit and see they have 3k hp remaining only for them to delete themselves a few seconds later.
2:17 Premature Swing. They say it happens to about 1 in 10 humans. 3:46 "I do not fear you." "Then you will die braver then most." 17:20 Khorne vs Slanesh. A classic rivalry.
Don't forget that Nurgle have a lot of heals. Just like the Vampires, I think the fact that they can be healed so much plays a role in making the units a bit weaker with their base stats
@@ChaosLemonVIII they’re more tanky on paper it seems. Even with so much health they basically always lose unless someone drops an expensive heal on them. They’re too slow to pick their own engagements and have no damage so any faction with range or mobility can abuse them
It's the low mele attack that's really killing them in this matchup. After charm, they've got ~20% chance to hit. Bloodletters get around this by simply eradicating the daemonettes whilst their charge bonus is active but they'd also likely fair poorly if the units just walked into each other.
You suggested during the breakdown at the end that bloodletters may need a price nerf I feel I should point out the big thing that can explain Daemonettes higher price point The Bloodletters performance here was inflated by bonus vs infantry and they'll lose effectiveness against large enemies. The Daemonettes lack bonus vs infantry, they'll perform that well against any infantry, cavalry or monster.
cool test, although cathay gets doubly screwed because they're also balanced around yin/yang which would give them up to 12 more melee defense and better leadership. In isolation I wouldn't be surprised if cathay doesn't have the worst units of every type regardless of the type tested.
@@lukeberghaus272 i think an interesting way to test factions is not as a singular unit but as army comps (reasonable ones) and just have them attack each other without micro. Kind of a way to show what each faction is like "without player intervention". It would be good content for creators too as it would look like those army battles that gets millions of views. From the footage players can see for themselves how they would micro units differently to get different results.
Imo it would've been better to test celestial dragon crossbowmen, as they use swords and shields in melee and have more generalized combat stats. In a way they are more similar to exalted pink horrors than halberds, which are anti large specialists.
Think you missed an important step in determining Cathays relative power rating. If you're going to allow the 2 units to use their ranged attacks, you should probably also have a ranged unit (with fire at will turned off) standing near the cathay infantry for the yin/yang stat bonus. May need to consider balance of power issues added by the ranged units, even if they are not shooting. TLDR yin/yang gunna be an important component of accurately determining relative unit power. Probably should also be considered when you do the best ranged unit testing for a future video.
I think it would be cool if you did more army showcases for the original armies since there’s been so many dlcs and updates I think more showcases and overviews would be cool
The 4 main demon factions have this circular hard counter relationship with each other. For example, Tzeentch is a hard counter to Nurgle, Nurgle blobs with mortis engine effect are a hard counter to Khorne, Khorne is a hard counter to the glass cannon Slaanesh, and speedy Slaanesh is a hard counter to Tzeentch by not allowing Tzeentch any time to shoot.
Except nurgle is dogshit and gets killed by both Slaanesh and Khorne. Khorne kills nurgle with bloodthirster goonsquards and large units as nurgle lacks anti-large. And Slaanesh does the same with fiends and easily flanking nurgle armies.
@@melo7038Not in campaign. Whatever's the strongest is whichever one the player is using usually. Khorne can't do much against massed Nurglings and getting ground down. Slaanesh also can't grind it out against Nurglings in prolonged combat. Nurgles weakness is ranged and how slow they're. Tzeench is a hard counter to Nurgle while Nurgle counters Khorne just not as much as it's countered by Tzeench. However Nurgle is the weakest out of them in this game mostly because of speed and ranged existing in most of the factions overall.
maneaters with great weapons would absolutely crush any of these infantry units alone. They just aren't classed the same. They really are just built different
@@Frosty-yy7oq the splash damage and armor piercing from the maneaters make me think otherwise. at 110 arpen weapon strength and 40+ melee attack alongside the ogre charge bonus, those guys cut through anything fighting with them in melee like butter. the thing that beats these units in practice and dont allow them to perform at their supreme top tier are the common anti large cav charge where due to their size, the entire unit of 16 ogres typically gets hit with every unit and their charge bonus or by direct missle focus. the only thing i can see making the celestial guard win straight up is if something were to do with the charge defense, bracing or counter charging math they've been playing with recently.
@@tomatoesofdoom Pretty sure the ogres units lost to elite anti large unit, probably the dragon celestial guard too. If not winning the whole trade, they will win gold value. I don't have in mind the stats of the ogres best unit in melee, but I don't see them winning honestly. And It's why i think in PVP ogres will be too predictable and probably a bit weak against some factions. (High Elves with all the anti large option and the best anti large infantry of the game : phoenix guard and GS for example will the savage big'un spam who were godtier meta back in warhammer 2)
Yeah it was weird that he let them fight half the battles with missiles firing and then counter charged the other times. I suspect the horrors might have won a few more battles if they had been allowed to keep firing in all the fights.
Eh, I know you said that this isn’t a perfect test, but it’s rather unfair to Cathay, given that usually you’re going to want to have the Harmony buffs going, which would make the CDG probably outlast at least a few other units.
How would you make it fair for the other units you'd be giving the dragon gaurd a few hundred gold advantage if your give thet other units Chevron's they'll just beat the dragon gaurd anyway
@@darkomihajlovski3135 The problem is that the Dragon Guard are a anti-large unit, not anti infantry, so of course they're not gonna fair well againt anti-infantry unit in this test, the fact that the Dragon Guard is here is already unfair. Not to mention with Cathay's Harmony mechanic mean CA purposely give Cathay infantry slightly weaker stats to force the player to group them up for the bonus Harmony buff meaning this test to x2 unfair.
Thanks for making these. They are always entertaining. You should not counter charge with pink horrors. My understanding is if you don't, they stay in loose formation and the bank ranks will fire while front ranks are in melee. This damage increase far outweighs the charge bonus over time. I know you paid lip service to it, but since we can't play the game yet it would have been nice to see how it plays out when they are all shooting/fighting at same time.
@@rubz1390 "I know you paid lip service to it..." Literally there in my words. Why do it with the charge each and every time? Would have loved to SEE it be ineffective rather than be told. Otherwise, why watch the video? May as well post the graphic at the end as an image and be done. TLDR: I'm watching the video to SEE how they perform; not be TOLD how they perform.
@@jonrussell739 Because it's just a fun video, not a scientific essay. Zerk tests lots of stuff in vacuum and doesn't elaborate on it,it has never been his intention to show every little nuance. I mean the video is already 20 minutes long and most people got what they came for.
11:00 If you want backline ranged units to keep shooting you must either issue a shoot command or have them just stand with autofire On. Once you issue melee attack command, they won't shoot anymore.
One thing I'd have liked to have seen would be Exalted Daemonettes hitting the Bloodletters in the rear to see how much the Devestating Flanker makes a difference in that match up.
But except if the player is AFK it will never happens in 1v1 unit situations. And it's where you see that Slaanesh need to do more tricky than direct attack. If you charge them from back yes it's strong but not a 1v1 anymore if the unit is already fighting another one in front. And on a real situation : every elite infantry coming from back will win, it's just even more snowball with daemonettes than any other elite infantry. So except to show the charge diff damage I don't see the point of doing that, since it's not the objective of his video !
Would love to see a Who’s the Best video about roles that are not 1v1 matches. For instance: who is best against cavalry. Letting each faction put their best anti large units against a set amount of cavalry (3 empire knights or something) and see who puts out the most damage. If you worked then on a higher you could test how 2000 of goblin spears fared vs a 2000 cost, anti-large monster. It would simulate a scenario where you send X unit off to your flank to deal with a cavalry unit. Would be interesting to see if budget equivalent groups of cheap units can keep up with the expensive specials.
@@miloradlukic9277 but the magic attack isn't, all daemons have 20 physical resist. plus the additional volleys because of their range is far better because the range meta never went away.
i am really surprised how well the demonettes did in that rest. i expected them to be one of the worst in a straight up fight, since they are about speed, out manoevering and flanking
Really speaks volumes about what they would be capable of when used correctly, it probably justifies them being more expensive than the Bloodletters :D
I recently saw a video showing that formation attack can pretty significantly lower infantry's performance, maybe that had some impact in this competition
Damn I like that there's a lot of maps with stuff on them, but I also like flat open maps to fight army to army on a wide scale :( I hope they have them in mortal emps
I think it's awesome to note that a straight-up slashy slashy wasn't really possible here. The caveats about pink horrors also having ranged or Cathay preferring to hold their ground against large and even OK being disqualified for being large are part of what makes this game so awesome.
I'm pretty sure that the Celestial Dragon Guard would fight a lot better with a Yin unit nearby since harmony is such an integral part of the mechanics of Cathay. & extra Melee defence (or 12 if there's also a hero or lord nearby) are a gamechanger for sure. Also - the Pink Horrors have no place in this test at all because they are not a Melee infantry unit, they are classified as missile infantry. You have to use the Blue Horrors in this test because they are the only Melee infantry unit in the Tzeentch roster. Or would also put some Sisters of Avelorn or Waywatchers into this type of competition because that's the exact same unit type as Pink Horrors.
I think exalted daemonettes and bloodletters are priced appropriately, given that in a battle the exalted daemonettes are angling to activate their Devastating Flanker bonus, and are charming enemy units to help preserve squishy slaaneshi units--other roles than sole butchery.
@Zerkovich The missile units firing in melee is a mechanic based on the order of attack. Enticity has a great video explaining it in warhammer 2 here: ruclips.net/video/qV7Vyf50soM/видео.html
daemonettes did much better than i expected considering devastating flanker wasn’t even popped, their higher price point than the others seems more justified to me now
In Celestial Dragon guard defence they do get yin/yang aura when ranged unit is nearby but then it is 2 vs 1. Would be nice to see if that aura can make any difference (ranged unit not attacking)
I'm so happy bloodletters are badass. I don't really think they need a price increase. After all the demonettes probably put up a much better fight (if not outright win, not sure) when they get the devastating flanker. Plus they are much faster so they don't have to take that engagement. I do think exalted pink horrors might need a slight increase, since despite being really deadly at range they put up a decent melee fight and have healing potential through recharging shields. Plague bearers might need a slight decrease but it's hard to say since that's a really dumb amount of health to chop through indeed.
Great video Zerkovich! From a multiplayer perspective it would be interesting to see the unit costs before the showdown each time for a good comparison. GL HF!
Feel like it's important that the exalted pink horrors don't countercharge that way they can take advantage of their missile damage when locked in melee. Which I think provided them that extra boost against the plaguebearers. The countercharge seriously seemed to have nerfed them.
Seems appropriate that it came down to Khorne vs Slaanesh. Wasn't sure the "ladies" of Slaanesh could withstand the barrage from the Pink Horrors or the tankiness of the Plaguebearers (plus the plague of flies ability they have which seemed to help not at all) but you proved my doubts for naught. Thanks for the excellent effort.
Aside from plaguebearers, the daemonette's performance makes sense. They counter pink horrors, as they're so fast, they can close the distance quickly and smother the horrors, before they can get enough damage off. And they get dumpstered by bloodletters in a head on fight, because they have crap defences and inferior melee stats. If they fight on Khorne's terms, they lose. As for Nurgle, it's a bit silly. Plaguebearers should have the advantage in a head on fight. They don't have any armour, so the high ap of daemonettes is wasted and their healthpools should allow them to tank the damage.
@@melo7038 Curiously CA has changed the stats of the daemons somewhat from the Tabletop. All have only 1 wound and a 4+ Ward save. But Daemonettes have the highest WE than any other Lesser Daemon, the same strength and Toughness and 3 attacks. The others get 2 attacks so on average the Daemonettes should be the best as they have more attacks and better Weapon Skill : 3+ to hit as opposed to everyone elses 4+. Daemonetes were, along with Pink Horrors (who when killed became 2 Blue Horrors in the Table top), the most expensive for that reason. Obviously someone at CA was more a follower of the Blood God. That being said Bloodthirsters kick every Great Demons arse.
What you really wanna do with the hybrid units like the various Horrors and Kossars is counter-charge with a melee attack order and then follow up with a normal ranged attack order so they can shoot and slash at the same time while still getting the charge bonus.
All things considered, the fact that Pink horror beat Exalted Plaguebearers, albeit closely, is a sign that the exalted Plaguebearers really need some help. They are too slow and too vulnerable to all kinds of missiles right now and I don't see them punching above their weight in most situations. They have some good matchups for sure but they just seem very underwhelming. I wouldn't mind them having some kind of missile resistance or even more health. It just sucks that they can't even do the one thing they're supposed to be good at.
I do not think they are supposed to win, they are supposed to hold. Combined this with poison, magic and very importantly healing, they can get to win.
they are not supposed to do damage they are supposed to stall while you shoot soul grinder artillery into the flanks, hammer and anvil with beasts of nurgle, and use their powerful magic to nuke and sustain
You know, what I'd really love to see is a ranking of infantry-chasing or hero-chasing units, because so often I'll send units to chase after a routed enemy only to be utterly unable to finish them off before they leave the battlefield. It's not an issue with routing monsters, but infantry often just get knocked around without taking damage.
11:58 weird movement on those demonettes, seemed like half of the unit was left behind when charging into the plaguebearers really surprised they won that with a front charge, might have been underestimating them did you test not charging the pinks vs bloodys, having less units in the melee where the bloodletters can deal damage could have won them the time they needed to deal their damage bloodletters are all about dealing lots of damage fast and the loose horror formation might be a decent counter to that similar with the demonettes more relevant with those two then the tzarguard since they have the armor to also stay in the fight so drawing things out a little wouldnt make as much a difference once things waver demonettes have already won, the buff they get from that is pretty good that alongside the rear charge is really what makes them good (tho they did better in the front fight then i expected) rear charge to get the enemy to waver, giving them the buff to finish the job fast and move on to the next unit to charge while also getting a buff for running down the survivors does make me wonder, do they only get that buff from enemy wavering units? or can they enjoy the fear in their own army letting you use it as a comeback enabler? hope you do something similar for the chaff units want to see blues vs peasants vs marauders vs nurglings? dont think khorne has chaff
The Deamonettes being the higher price i think is okey due to there impressive speed. Also with there abilty to 2x the charge bonus when flanking should be taken into account with the pricing. With 50+ speed they are primarily a flanking unit i would say.
Having played Cathay now, they really struggle against... well, everything. They seem to be designed like dwarves, holding the line, while the ranged kills. However, as shown here, their infantry doesn't last terribly long against other high tier infantry. They're Anti-Large, yet, the way mass and collision works, most large units can just walk right through them. I've (generally) been able to win every battle with Cathay, but its usually ugly. The line never holds for long, if at all. Fighting Kairos, I watched as his spawn literally walked through my Dragon Guard and attacked the crossbows in the rear. And Ogres just don't give a shit about your infantry.
I wonder how the other 2 sword units of Kislev would perform in this. So the Ice Guards (swords) and the Tzar Guard. The former is a bit like the pink horror with slightly less hp, but better melee stats. The latter is ofcourse a more durable version of the Tzar Guard in the video, but it does less damage. The unit tested in the video would win a tournament in Kislev, but I think that mainly the Ice Guards (swords) could outperform the pink horrors.
I'd be interested in seeing this again but with each of the Dragon Guard having an archer unit behind them (facing the wrong way not shooting of course). The extra melee defense from harmony makes a pretty big difference.
It's a little weird that the Pink Horrors didn't shoot into the Tsar Guard after their counter charge. I wonder if that would help the plague bearers as well. I wonder if a more square formation would help the ranged units fire into combat for longer, even if it means their engaged models are outnumbered more often.
Some notes on the analysis: -Of course Bloodletters won over Daemonettes despote being cheaper. The Daemonettes pay for the devastating flanker, which they didn't get to use. Which to me indicates that they maybe overperformed a bit, maybe shouldn't have beaten plaguebearers in an upfront grind. That's especially considering that should also pay for AP which they can't use efficiently against Plaguebearers. -Tzar Guard are also a bit puzzling, considering that being AP to shouldn't trade well with those unarmored Daemons (per price). Yet they are as good as Pink Horrors? Tbf, that's down to the fight between the two, were neither is the others preffered target. -Plaguebearers are bit weak for 1250, considering that they are supposed to be made for this type of frontline engagement. They really should've beaten Daemonettes (same price, but not in their ideal role). Tbf they didn't get to use their full ammo, but so did the Pink Horrors which ranked really high for their price. -No suprise there with the Dragon Guard. -You forgot the Nr. 7 with the Gnoblar Trappers. No need to test that but they'd certainly be there. Also props for being able to stop the enemies charge bonus with their traps.
Chosen w/ GW vs Exalted Bloodletters is a matchup I’m really looking forward to. Thanks for the great showcase! I wonder if the Monkey King will bring with him some more aggressive melee infantry for Cathay? Also, I’m curious whether the daemons will eventually all get chaos warriors and chosen devoted to their god. The future is exciting!
Those moment when you look at what units are doing... 1:11, the Tsar Guard behead his comrade behind him while attacking: the blade pass through his throat. It's a magnificent strike as the blade even pass just between the helmet and the breastplate.
Nurgle seems pretty underpowered. For a faction that's all about standing and grinding it out, their infantry is pretty shit at it. Plus with low mobility and armor, they can't really choose their engagements. As this example shows even if the Pink Horrors don't use mobility at all, they can steal beat Nurgle out
I think something to remember, Daemonettes has that flanking trait, which aint utilized in this test, which is probably why they are priced 50g more than the bloodletters
They are also faster and has a debuff who help others units can stack to multiple units if they hit simultaneously more than 1 unit. Bloodletters are more damage dealer and daemonettes are more ''good in everything'' since they are less kited and can help others units surviving.
18:16 "Back to the Chaos realm to be spanked by Slaanesh ..." See if Slaanesh really wanted to punish his Demonettes he wouldn't spank them. He'd, I dunno .... edge them?
It would've been rather poor on CA's part had Khorne's EBs not won in a relatively straight up melee contest. Curious to know if the Exalt Plaguebearers might have done better against the Exalt Pinkies had they used their missile attack a few times. I've seen them apparently do a lot of damage to the shielding of Tzeentch units. Not sure if you tried it, but am curious if it might have mattered. Always fun to watch, thanks.
Excuse me, Z, right at the end you were saying which of the tw2 elite infantry might be able to challenge the anaemic extremists, black orcs, hoemasters, etc and I couldn't help but notice that you forgot Storm Vermin (sword and shield), who obviously have the strongest chance as *the* top tier melee infantry in tw so far.
i don't see all the video but, don't forget it's just a crashing test, it's hard to make a real contest for unit with much specifity - cathay are better with the yin-yang buff - slaanesh are trully stronger if the attack from back - Tzeench are kitting unit for is shield But i'm okay to say Khorne are clearly the fastest for getting skull :D (without condition) hope to see soon an ultimate contest with immortal empire faction
"The daemonettes are taking a pounding, but they're dishing it back!"
You know, somehow I get the feeling the daemonettes are totally on board with this.
You know, I think an anti-large competition would be cool to see! Take all of the best anti-large units from each faction and put them against increasingly stronger large units. You could start at something weak like Kossovite Dervishes, then go up to Ogre brutes (or whatever their base infantry unit is) and just work your way up, seeing which anti large unit is best
Good idea
Compare them to missile units
Love this idea
@@BananenbaumEY really not one unit? At least Khorne has one smaller dude and one bigger dude for that matter.
Cathay are also missing their battle harmony buffs, which also knocks em down in this kind of competition. Still fun to watch, great job Zerk
That's why Kislev is more flexible human faction, you don't need to rely on standing close to each other that makes killing with spells easier
Edit: grammar Wood Elven
I am curious how much that would influence the outcomes.
I really want to play Cathay but I feel the need to keep units so close is spooky. I like wide flanks and open formations to controll the field, I'm not sure how close they have to be, but against strong AOE spells Cathay might get dunked by other players on due to the harmony mechanic . I know tzeench has some spells and the ogers have some artillery that mulch formation lines that have very generous area damage.
I doubt it would change much, they're paying a premium for anti large which isn't getting used at all vs infantry
@@Prime_Logos you don't need the whole army up each other's ass just a infintry and archery unit in a general area of each other.
0:55
Aww, that's not fair! I wanted to see how many kills they could get before kicking the bucket! Who knows, they might actually be really cost effective.
The minions of the Blood God are the best at melee fighting, this is actually correct according to the lore. Color me surprised.
Pretty much, although I would frame it as most focused on melee and not best, the lore is usually pretty vague about who is the best.
@@mcmarkmarkson7115 The lore is more chaotic than Chaos itself and changes all the time. In one armybook it outright says Khorne is stronger than everyone else, and that Khorne+Tzeentch cooperation is stronger than any other pairing. Then there are lore sources that says Nurgle becomes the strongest when a great plague ravages the world, and become the weakest when its over. And there's another story where Tzeentch was the most powerful of all and the 3 others have to team up to beat him down.
@@rubz1390 I don’t think that’s contradictory the chaos gods power changes depending on what’s going on in the world Khorne is (usually) the strongest because of the constant warfare, Nurgle becomes stronger when giant plagues ravage the world etc.
Completely lore accurate, I'm happy with this.
@@mcmarkmarkson7115
EH.
Nobody ever respects that when it's time for Skink Javelins to throw their third javelin and beat something a thousand gold more expensive than them in melee.
When I saw the Pink Horrors, I instantly saw Roman Legionaries. Giving me new ideas for the campaign, awesome work!
Pink Legionnaires
@@FlavBoe Not Pink, Lightish Red!
I think we just miss Rome Total War
FORM PINKSTUDO AND ATTACK!
I think the deamonettes are fairly priced considering how fast they are, which didn’t really matter in this test.
and in a real fight they would be making use of that doubled charge bonus for flank or rear, which also played no role in this test.
In streamer gameplay deamonettes and slanneshi units in general move deceptively quick, to the point were accidental flanks occur regularly making them extremely effective in open battles... arguably one of the best armies in the base game
@@vampuricknight1 I don't do much pvp but in campaign I always throw something heavy down the middle to get most things attack then swarm with a deamonettes and chariots doom stack and flank with everything. It is super nasty.
If Bloodletters had lost, there would be riots. I think their lower cost than Daemonettes is justified given that they aren't as good at flanking and they're on a 1-dimensional roster that *needs* to be good at charging cost-efficient infantry into the enemy frontline because they have no other option.
And they arent going to get buffed by magic either. They have to stand a chance vs all the units that have a lot of buffing and dmg spells potential.
That was my biggest Khorncern, glad to see they're on top.
They are also faster and has a debuff who help others units can stack to multiple units if they hit simultaneously more than 1 unit. Bloodletters are more damage dealer and daemonettes are more ''good in everything'' since they are less kited and can help others units surviving.
So yes Bloodletters is legit here. And as someone said : Khorne has little buffs while Slaanesh have tons.
Daemonettes are so fast flanking is as easy as with cav.
Those anti-charge animations on the Dragon Guard were pretty cool, actually - much better to look at than just getting apathetically slammed into.
I guess, but breaking formation against enemy charge is a terrible idea! :D
@@tominieminen66 Charging is also a terrible idea for infantry.
@@kamilszadkowski8864 It depends on the situation but yeah, it can be a terrible move
When it comes to cathay units they have a "fight in formation" key toggled on by default this actually hurts them in melee battles against other melee infantry and is only good for holding tight formations while your other units support them.
You will see a lot of the cathay units turning there back to the enemy and walking back one line in the formation hurting dps of there own and increasing that of the enemy. It probably wouldn't have changed most of the matchups but it certainly would have helped.
Might be a broader issue with unit movement in general,movement is really shit in TWW3,i went back to 2 to check it out and damn is there a massive difference.
I think counter charging the pink horrors was a mistake. It would've been interesting to see the replays where they kept firing from the back lines, considering their sub par melee stats but pretty respectable missile damage
@@icecreambrainz8726 the charge bonus wouldn't last long enough anyways. Charging with the pink horrors puts more of them in melee, that probably makes the fights shorter, especially vs bloodletters and daemonettes. If the pink horrors drip feed models that gives them more time to use the ranged attack.
1:11
Pink horrors are a skirmish unit. You should pull them out when their regenerating shield drops and kite while the shield regens to get more ranged volleys in. Horrors will need more micro
Using Pink horrors like melee infantry is like using Orc Arrer Boyz with most of their ammo to charge their front line. Honestly I feel like Blue horrors would be used as that role even if they have slightly less stats. With their limited range attack and listed as melee infantry... Granted I'd expect blues to lose to all.
Idk I feel like Forsaken would fit better, tier two just like the pinks as well as you know. Being true melee infantry, and not a "Well I didn't bother getting real infantry to use for this fight."
11:11
Best Infantry Competitions=Weak
Worst Infantry Competitions=Strong
I also wonder if Sword and Board Tzar Guard would do better since Daemons dont have a lot of armor and the higher melee defense would keep em alive longer
GW tsar guard beat sword and board tsar guard 1v1, so he went with the GW variant
@@Collinpawns
Sure but that doesn't mean that Shielded Tzar guard can't win
@@Collinpawns GW wins against S&B cuz GB got AP dmg, but if they're fighting against a target with only 50 armor, AP doesn't matter as much (compared to the heavily 90 armor units). So the advantage GW gets from having higher AP is lost while S&B stays effective.
@@the_dropbear4392 the way zerk chooses which unit to use from each faction is by determining which unit beats all other units in its own faction. He's said this many times in previous videos comparing the unit types. Why would he change the way he's done it for years?
He usually pits the best in the roster against each other and the gw will most likely beat the s&w
For the weirder inclusions like the Celestial Dragon Guard, it might be helpful to include a metric like "but how long did they last?" since the conclusion is kinda foregone but getting an idea of how much time they can buy you in each match-up might help out a bit too. Sorry if this is a duplicate comment, I didn't see anyone else saying it.
I saw (GW) and thought Gone wild
@@bluemilkalienmonster522 we’ve lived very similar pasts lol
Damn pink horrors are surprisingly good in the melee, I guess its that barrier giving them that wiggle room.
true. barrier absorbs most of the charge bonus so they don't lose models during those brutal seconds
The plaguebearers disintegrating with ~2k hp remaining really puts a damper on their hp advantage, it'll be more like a illusion of sustain when you check in on a unit and see they have 3k hp remaining only for them to delete themselves a few seconds later.
It's all due to the way leadership works I think. Like the leadership loss is tied to the % health lost not the actual amount remaining or lost.
Not to mention nurgle healing magic has a much larger pool of hp to work with
@@a0point0of0view1 He didn't use their ranged attacks by doing guard mode. Huge DPS loss
2:17 Premature Swing. They say it happens to about 1 in 10 humans.
3:46 "I do not fear you." "Then you will die braver then most."
17:20 Khorne vs Slanesh. A classic rivalry.
I love that Exalted Daemonettes can be shortened to ED.
69 likes…i dare not add another
Exalted Pink Horrors seem very solid, holding their own in melee and the strong missile attack
As expected though, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
The plaguebearers feel quite underpowered here. They should beat at least the Deamonettes in a front to front combat considering how slow they are.
Don't forget that Nurgle have a lot of heals. Just like the Vampires, I think the fact that they can be healed so much plays a role in making the units a bit weaker with their base stats
How tanky they are makes up for their lack of damage output.
Well, they are slow *and weak*. And have high cost.
What that says about Nurgle?
@@ChaosLemonVIII they’re more tanky on paper it seems. Even with so much health they basically always lose unless someone drops an expensive heal on them. They’re too slow to pick their own engagements and have no damage so any faction with range or mobility can abuse them
It's the low mele attack that's really killing them in this matchup. After charm, they've got ~20% chance to hit.
Bloodletters get around this by simply eradicating the daemonettes whilst their charge bonus is active but they'd also likely fair poorly if the units just walked into each other.
You suggested during the breakdown at the end that bloodletters may need a price nerf
I feel I should point out the big thing that can explain Daemonettes higher price point
The Bloodletters performance here was inflated by bonus vs infantry and they'll lose effectiveness against large enemies.
The Daemonettes lack bonus vs infantry, they'll perform that well against any infantry, cavalry or monster.
cool test, although cathay gets doubly screwed because they're also balanced around yin/yang which would give them up to 12 more melee defense and better leadership. In isolation I wouldn't be surprised if cathay doesn't have the worst units of every type regardless of the type tested.
Would it be fair to put say peasant archers (with fire at will disabled) standing behind the Cathayan units?
@@lukeberghaus272 well demonettes have to flank too to get the best of them.
@@asadmuhammad4806 The answer would be the same as ironbreakers using their satchels! xD
@@tominieminen66 exactly
@@lukeberghaus272 i think an interesting way to test factions is not as a singular unit but as army comps (reasonable ones) and just have them attack each other without micro. Kind of a way to show what each faction is like "without player intervention". It would be good content for creators too as it would look like those army battles that gets millions of views. From the footage players can see for themselves how they would micro units differently to get different results.
Imo it would've been better to test celestial dragon crossbowmen, as they use swords and shields in melee and have more generalized combat stats. In a way they are more similar to exalted pink horrors than halberds, which are anti large specialists.
Think you missed an important step in determining Cathays relative power rating. If you're going to allow the 2 units to use their ranged attacks, you should probably also have a ranged unit (with fire at will turned off) standing near the cathay infantry for the yin/yang stat bonus. May need to consider balance of power issues added by the ranged units, even if they are not shooting.
TLDR yin/yang gunna be an important component of accurately determining relative unit power. Probably should also be considered when you do the best ranged unit testing for a future video.
I think it would be cool if you did more army showcases for the original armies since there’s been so many dlcs and updates I think more showcases and overviews would be cool
The 4 main demon factions have this circular hard counter relationship with each other. For example, Tzeentch is a hard counter to Nurgle, Nurgle blobs with mortis engine effect are a hard counter to Khorne, Khorne is a hard counter to the glass cannon Slaanesh, and speedy Slaanesh is a hard counter to Tzeentch by not allowing Tzeentch any time to shoot.
Except nurgle is dogshit and gets killed by both Slaanesh and Khorne.
Khorne kills nurgle with bloodthirster goonsquards and large units as nurgle lacks anti-large. And Slaanesh does the same with fiends and easily flanking nurgle armies.
@@melo7038Not in campaign. Whatever's the strongest is whichever one the player is using usually. Khorne can't do much against massed Nurglings and getting ground down. Slaanesh also can't grind it out against Nurglings in prolonged combat. Nurgles weakness is ranged and how slow they're. Tzeench is a hard counter to Nurgle while Nurgle counters Khorne just not as much as it's countered by Tzeench. However Nurgle is the weakest out of them in this game mostly because of speed and ranged existing in most of the factions overall.
I would really like to see how ogres would have performed here.
maneaters with great weapons would absolutely crush any of these infantry units alone. They just aren't classed the same. They really are just built different
@@tomatoesofdoom I wouldn't be surprised if Dragon Guard could beat them with their anti-large, or at the very least make it a close fight
@@Frosty-yy7oq the splash damage and armor piercing from the maneaters make me think otherwise. at 110 arpen weapon strength and 40+ melee attack alongside the ogre charge bonus, those guys cut through anything fighting with them in melee like butter. the thing that beats these units in practice and dont allow them to perform at their supreme top tier are the common anti large cav charge where due to their size, the entire unit of 16 ogres typically gets hit with every unit and their charge bonus or by direct missle focus.
the only thing i can see making the celestial guard win straight up is if something were to do with the charge defense, bracing or counter charging math they've been playing with recently.
@@tomatoesofdoom Pretty sure the ogres units lost to elite anti large unit, probably the dragon celestial guard too. If not winning the whole trade, they will win gold value.
I don't have in mind the stats of the ogres best unit in melee, but I don't see them winning honestly. And It's why i think in PVP ogres will be too predictable and probably a bit weak against some factions. (High Elves with all the anti large option and the best anti large infantry of the game : phoenix guard and GS for example will the savage big'un spam who were godtier meta back in warhammer 2)
I did not expect to see the pink horrors do that well. I'm proud of my tzeentchy boyz
the blood god is pleased, not only with his champions winning, but also the blood shed that was done during this test.
Counter charging Pink Horrors makes as much sense as counter charging with your other missile units. Let them keep shooting.
Yeah it was weird that he let them fight half the battles with missiles firing and then counter charged the other times. I suspect the horrors might have won a few more battles if they had been allowed to keep firing in all the fights.
Dragon guard also do t have their yin/yan bonus
Eh, I know you said that this isn’t a perfect test, but it’s rather unfair to Cathay, given that usually you’re going to want to have the Harmony buffs going, which would make the CDG probably outlast at least a few other units.
How would you make it fair for the other units you'd be giving the dragon gaurd a few hundred gold advantage if your give thet other units Chevron's they'll just beat the dragon gaurd anyway
@@darkomihajlovski3135 The problem is that the Dragon Guard are a anti-large unit, not anti infantry, so of course they're not gonna fair well againt anti-infantry unit in this test, the fact that the Dragon Guard is here is already unfair. Not to mention with Cathay's Harmony mechanic mean CA purposely give Cathay infantry slightly weaker stats to force the player to group them up for the bonus Harmony buff meaning this test to x2 unfair.
Thanks for making these. They are always entertaining.
You should not counter charge with pink horrors. My understanding is if you don't, they stay in loose formation and the bank ranks will fire while front ranks are in melee. This damage increase far outweighs the charge bonus over time. I know you paid lip service to it, but since we can't play the game yet it would have been nice to see how it plays out when they are all shooting/fighting at same time.
He did say though that he tested as you explain and the results came out the same seemingly.
@@rubz1390 "I know you paid lip service to it..."
Literally there in my words. Why do it with the charge each and every time? Would have loved to SEE it be ineffective rather than be told. Otherwise, why watch the video? May as well post the graphic at the end as an image and be done.
TLDR: I'm watching the video to SEE how they perform; not be TOLD how they perform.
@@jonrussell739 Because it's just a fun video, not a scientific essay. Zerk tests lots of stuff in vacuum and doesn't elaborate on it,it has never been his intention to show every little nuance. I mean the video is already 20 minutes long and most people got what they came for.
11:00
If you want backline ranged units to keep shooting you must either issue a shoot command or have them just stand with autofire On. Once you issue melee attack command, they won't shoot anymore.
One thing I'd have liked to have seen would be Exalted Daemonettes hitting the Bloodletters in the rear to see how much the Devestating Flanker makes a difference in that match up.
We all know the answer! xD
But except if the player is AFK it will never happens in 1v1 unit situations. And it's where you see that Slaanesh need to do more tricky than direct attack.
If you charge them from back yes it's strong but not a 1v1 anymore if the unit is already fighting another one in front. And on a real situation : every elite infantry coming from back will win, it's just even more snowball with daemonettes than any other elite infantry. So except to show the charge diff damage I don't see the point of doing that, since it's not the objective of his video !
Would love to see a Who’s the Best video about roles that are not 1v1 matches.
For instance: who is best against cavalry. Letting each faction put their best anti large units against a set amount of cavalry (3 empire knights or something) and see who puts out the most damage. If you worked then on a higher you could test how 2000 of goblin spears fared vs a 2000 cost, anti-large monster.
It would simulate a scenario where you send X unit off to your flank to deal with a cavalry unit. Would be interesting to see if budget equivalent groups of cheap units can keep up with the expensive specials.
Don't ice guard with dual weapons do better against demons than the tzar guard?
The 90 armor is the only reason the tsar guard beat the plaguebearers and pink horrors, ice maiden get wrecked
yea, ap is wasted on demons
@@miloradlukic9277 but the magic attack isn't, all daemons have 20 physical resist. plus the additional volleys because of their range is far better because the range meta never went away.
@@Collinpawns Video shows that PBs beat TGs
these tests arent perfectly fair!1!!
Note to mods:
Ban this Roy.
@@Zerkovich noooo
@@Zerkovich This ban isn't perfectly fair!1!!
When you do the mortal empires you have to put dwarfs iron breakers since you are allowing some range.
i am really surprised how well the demonettes did in that rest. i expected them to be one of the worst in a straight up fight, since they are about speed, out manoevering and flanking
Really speaks volumes about what they would be capable of when used correctly, it probably justifies them being more expensive than the Bloodletters :D
Yes, more of this.
Would love even just some random unit/spell testing even outside of these structured tournament style ones.
Honestly tsar guard with great weapons don’t seem worth recruiting when streltsi/ice guard are are a thing.
I recently saw a video showing that formation attack can pretty significantly lower infantry's performance, maybe that had some impact in this competition
Oh yay! These face-offs have always been my favorite of your content! Feels like watching a sporting match.
Already doing unit competitions while the game isnt even out yet, man you make the hype and the waiting game so hard.
'Sent back to the Chaos Realm with a good effort badge' on top form as always with your videos Zerk!
Nice video, thumbs up.
It would also be very interesting who has the best cavalry units.😊
Damn I like that there's a lot of maps with stuff on them, but I also like flat open maps to fight army to army on a wide scale :( I hope they have them in mortal emps
Man those bloodletters just deleted the Slaneesh units, wasn't even much of a contest. One second they are there and the next they aren't
I think it's awesome to note that a straight-up slashy slashy wasn't really possible here. The caveats about pink horrors also having ranged or Cathay preferring to hold their ground against large and even OK being disqualified for being large are part of what makes this game so awesome.
17:45 lmao.. that one Red just missed that wall of Pink and kept on going.
I'm pretty sure that the Celestial Dragon Guard would fight a lot better with a Yin unit nearby since harmony is such an integral part of the mechanics of Cathay. & extra Melee defence (or 12 if there's also a hero or lord nearby) are a gamechanger for sure.
Also - the Pink Horrors have no place in this test at all because they are not a Melee infantry unit, they are classified as missile infantry. You have to use the Blue Horrors in this test because they are the only Melee infantry unit in the Tzeentch roster. Or would also put some Sisters of Avelorn or Waywatchers into this type of competition because that's the exact same unit type as Pink Horrors.
"I'm sure celestial dragon guard would be one of the best anti-large"
Well that prediction aged about as well as 3 week old gym socks
I think exalted daemonettes and bloodletters are priced appropriately, given that in a battle the exalted daemonettes are angling to activate their Devastating Flanker bonus, and are charming enemy units to help preserve squishy slaaneshi units--other roles than sole butchery.
haha I really really enjoyed this video for some reason. the tournament style was really fun.
Shouldn't Tzeench be represented by Forsaken instead of Exalted Pink Horrors. Since Pink Horrors are a Ranged unit?
@Zerkovich The missile units firing in melee is a mechanic based on the order of attack. Enticity has a great video explaining it in warhammer 2 here: ruclips.net/video/qV7Vyf50soM/видео.html
Great video! Would love more of these tournament type videos : )
daemonettes did much better than i expected considering devastating flanker wasn’t even popped, their higher price point than the others seems more justified to me now
In Celestial Dragon guard defence they do get yin/yang aura when ranged unit is nearby but then it is 2 vs 1. Would be nice to see if that aura can make any difference (ranged unit not attacking)
I'm so happy bloodletters are badass. I don't really think they need a price increase. After all the demonettes probably put up a much better fight (if not outright win, not sure) when they get the devastating flanker. Plus they are much faster so they don't have to take that engagement.
I do think exalted pink horrors might need a slight increase, since despite being really deadly at range they put up a decent melee fight and have healing potential through recharging shields.
Plague bearers might need a slight decrease but it's hard to say since that's a really dumb amount of health to chop through indeed.
Nurgle feels a bit underwhelming. Little ranged, little mobility, you would assume they at least win melee when they finally get there...
Great video Zerkovich! From a multiplayer perspective it would be interesting to see the unit costs before the showdown each time for a good comparison. GL HF!
Feel like it's important that the exalted pink horrors don't countercharge that way they can take advantage of their missile damage when locked in melee. Which I think provided them that extra boost against the plaguebearers. The countercharge seriously seemed to have nerfed them.
Definitely looking forward to see how WH1 and 2 infantry holds up. What is the best TW:WH infantry? Cavalry? Monstrous infantry? Anti-large monster?
These videos are very helpful to become familiar with the units. Thanks!
Seems appropriate that it came down to Khorne vs Slaanesh. Wasn't sure the "ladies" of Slaanesh could withstand the barrage from the Pink Horrors or the tankiness of the Plaguebearers (plus the plague of flies ability they have which seemed to help not at all) but you proved my doubts for naught. Thanks for the excellent effort.
Aside from plaguebearers, the daemonette's performance makes sense. They counter pink horrors, as they're so fast, they can close the distance quickly and smother the horrors, before they can get enough damage off. And they get dumpstered by bloodletters in a head on fight, because they have crap defences and inferior melee stats. If they fight on Khorne's terms, they lose.
As for Nurgle, it's a bit silly. Plaguebearers should have the advantage in a head on fight. They don't have any armour, so the high ap of daemonettes is wasted and their healthpools should allow them to tank the damage.
@@melo7038 Curiously CA has changed the stats of the daemons somewhat from the Tabletop. All have only 1 wound and a 4+ Ward save. But Daemonettes have the highest WE than any other Lesser Daemon, the same strength and Toughness and 3 attacks. The others get 2 attacks so on average the Daemonettes should be the best as they have more attacks and better Weapon Skill : 3+ to hit as opposed to everyone elses 4+. Daemonetes were, along with Pink Horrors (who when killed became 2 Blue Horrors in the Table top), the most expensive for that reason. Obviously someone at CA was more a follower of the Blood God. That being said Bloodthirsters kick every Great Demons arse.
What you really wanna do with the hybrid units like the various Horrors and Kossars is counter-charge with a melee attack order and then follow up with a normal ranged attack order so they can shoot and slash at the same time while still getting the charge bonus.
I thought forsaken of tzeentch would make it but they must be monstrous
All things considered, the fact that Pink horror beat Exalted Plaguebearers, albeit closely, is a sign that the exalted Plaguebearers really need some help. They are too slow and too vulnerable to all kinds of missiles right now and I don't see them punching above their weight in most situations. They have some good matchups for sure but they just seem very underwhelming. I wouldn't mind them having some kind of missile resistance or even more health. It just sucks that they can't even do the one thing they're supposed to be good at.
The exalted plaguebearers losing against all of the other daemons is a real problem. This should be their element. Man, Nurgle really needs a buff.
I think in campaign the tactic is to have plagues weaken the enemy army before you go in so thats not factored into this 3v3 slice of pure combat.
I do not think they are supposed to win, they are supposed to hold. Combined this with poison, magic and very importantly healing, they can get to win.
they are not supposed to do damage they are supposed to stall while you shoot soul grinder artillery into the flanks, hammer and anvil with beasts of nurgle, and use their powerful magic to nuke and sustain
You know, what I'd really love to see is a ranking of infantry-chasing or hero-chasing units, because so often I'll send units to chase after a routed enemy only to be utterly unable to finish them off before they leave the battlefield. It's not an issue with routing monsters, but infantry often just get knocked around without taking damage.
11:58 weird movement on those demonettes, seemed like half of the unit was left behind when charging into the plaguebearers
really surprised they won that with a front charge, might have been underestimating them
did you test not charging the pinks vs bloodys, having less units in the melee where the bloodletters can deal damage could have won them the time they needed to deal their damage
bloodletters are all about dealing lots of damage fast and the loose horror formation might be a decent counter to that
similar with the demonettes
more relevant with those two then the tzarguard since they have the armor to also stay in the fight so drawing things out a little wouldnt make as much a difference
once things waver demonettes have already won, the buff they get from that is pretty good
that alongside the rear charge is really what makes them good (tho they did better in the front fight then i expected)
rear charge to get the enemy to waver, giving them the buff to finish the job fast and move on to the next unit to charge while also getting a buff for running down the survivors
does make me wonder, do they only get that buff from enemy wavering units? or can they enjoy the fear in their own army letting you use it as a comeback enabler?
hope you do something similar for the chaff units
want to see blues vs peasants vs marauders vs nurglings? dont think khorne has chaff
The Deamonettes being the higher price i think is okey due to there impressive speed. Also with there abilty to 2x the charge bonus when flanking should be taken into account with the pricing. With 50+ speed they are primarily a flanking unit i would say.
Having played Cathay now, they really struggle against... well, everything.
They seem to be designed like dwarves, holding the line, while the ranged kills. However, as shown here, their infantry doesn't last terribly long against other high tier infantry. They're Anti-Large, yet, the way mass and collision works, most large units can just walk right through them. I've (generally) been able to win every battle with Cathay, but its usually ugly. The line never holds for long, if at all. Fighting Kairos, I watched as his spawn literally walked through my Dragon Guard and attacked the crossbows in the rear.
And Ogres just don't give a shit about your infantry.
I wonder how the other 2 sword units of Kislev would perform in this. So the Ice Guards (swords) and the Tzar Guard. The former is a bit like the pink horror with slightly less hp, but better melee stats. The latter is ofcourse a more durable version of the Tzar Guard in the video, but it does less damage. The unit tested in the video would win a tournament in Kislev, but I think that mainly the Ice Guards (swords) could outperform the pink horrors.
I'd be interested in seeing this again but with each of the Dragon Guard having an archer unit behind them (facing the wrong way not shooting of course).
The extra melee defense from harmony makes a pretty big difference.
Can't wait to watch these videos when all units are available
I really like these comparisons - thank you! Keep it up.
It's a little weird that the Pink Horrors didn't shoot into the Tsar Guard after their counter charge. I wonder if that would help the plague bearers as well.
I wonder if a more square formation would help the ranged units fire into combat for longer, even if it means their engaged models are outnumbered more often.
Seems about fair, good balancing. The tactical acumen of the player, and support units/characters abilities, should make the difference.
Some notes on the analysis:
-Of course Bloodletters won over Daemonettes despote being cheaper. The Daemonettes pay for the devastating flanker, which they didn't get to use. Which to me indicates that they maybe overperformed a bit, maybe shouldn't have beaten plaguebearers in an upfront grind. That's especially considering that should also pay for AP which they can't use efficiently against Plaguebearers.
-Tzar Guard are also a bit puzzling, considering that being AP to shouldn't trade well with those unarmored Daemons (per price). Yet they are as good as Pink Horrors? Tbf, that's down to the fight between the two, were neither is the others preffered target.
-Plaguebearers are bit weak for 1250, considering that they are supposed to be made for this type of frontline engagement. They really should've beaten Daemonettes (same price, but not in their ideal role). Tbf they didn't get to use their full ammo, but so did the Pink Horrors which ranked really high for their price.
-No suprise there with the Dragon Guard.
-You forgot the Nr. 7 with the Gnoblar Trappers. No need to test that but they'd certainly be there. Also props for being able to stop the enemies charge bonus with their traps.
Chosen w/ GW vs Exalted Bloodletters is a matchup I’m really looking forward to. Thanks for the great showcase!
I wonder if the Monkey King will bring with him some more aggressive melee infantry for Cathay? Also, I’m curious whether the daemons will eventually all get chaos warriors and chosen devoted to their god. The future is exciting!
Those moment when you look at what units are doing...
1:11, the Tsar Guard behead his comrade behind him while attacking: the blade pass through his throat. It's a magnificent strike as the blade even pass just between the helmet and the breastplate.
Nurgle seems pretty underpowered. For a faction that's all about standing and grinding it out, their infantry is pretty shit at it. Plus with low mobility and armor, they can't really choose their engagements. As this example shows even if the Pink Horrors don't use mobility at all, they can steal beat Nurgle out
I think something to remember, Daemonettes has that flanking trait, which aint utilized in this test, which is probably why they are priced 50g more than the bloodletters
They are also faster and has a debuff who help others units can stack to multiple units if they hit simultaneously more than 1 unit. Bloodletters are more damage dealer and daemonettes are more ''good in everything'' since they are less kited and can help others units surviving.
If you build an outpost with Rome, you can build praetorians that rick roll everything.
CDG currently have a anti charge perk by countercharging, sometimes proving much better that way. You really should try that
This was fun and informative. Would you consider doing a cavalry and monstrous cav match-up video?
18:16 "Back to the Chaos realm to be spanked by Slaanesh ..." See if Slaanesh really wanted to punish his Demonettes he wouldn't spank them. He'd, I dunno .... edge them?
It would've been rather poor on CA's part had Khorne's EBs not won in a relatively straight up melee contest.
Curious to know if the Exalt Plaguebearers might have done better against the Exalt Pinkies had they used their missile attack a few times. I've seen them apparently do a lot of damage to the shielding of Tzeentch units. Not sure if you tried it, but am curious if it might have mattered.
Always fun to watch, thanks.
Funny thing is in campaign when used by the player Nurgle counters Khorne since it loves melee slogs and Khorne can't do much to Nurgle.
The fact that THIS is the best wide open flat map you can find is the most exiting thing for me in TWW3.
There is a battlemap with a big bridge that is pretty flat, but you guys already know that 10 days later...
Excuse me, Z, right at the end you were saying which of the tw2 elite infantry might be able to challenge the anaemic extremists, black orcs, hoemasters, etc and I couldn't help but notice that you forgot Storm Vermin (sword and shield), who obviously have the strongest chance as *the* top tier melee infantry in tw so far.
If im not mistaken, plague monk censer bearers who represent skaven in his previous video
@@asadmuhammad4806 no I was kidding :D storm vermin are rubbish for MP
Exalted plaguebearers actually have a veryy good missile attack.. just saying haha great video
I enjoyed this so much and you’ll make a great sports commentator 😂
Did you turn of formation attack on the dragon guard? it hampers their performance by around 11% or something. Great video as always!
That was fun. Thanks for putting it together.
Thanks for the video. Time codes would be great next time 😉
i don't see all the video but, don't forget it's just a crashing test, it's hard to make a real contest for unit with much specifity
- cathay are better with the yin-yang buff
- slaanesh are trully stronger if the attack from back
- Tzeench are kitting unit for is shield
But i'm okay to say Khorne are clearly the fastest for getting skull :D (without condition)
hope to see soon an ultimate contest with immortal empire faction