On the early Third Generation Colt SAAs, Colt did skip this feature as a cost cutting measure (eliminating the cylinder bushing as a separate piece from the cylinder), but due to many complaints from enthusiasts, they eventually (around 1999) went back to making them with a real cylinder bushing as a separate part. I have a 2005 Colt SAA with the original separate bushing. Many collectors eschew early 3rd Gen Colt SAAs for precisely this reason, and many classify post 1998 Colt SAAs as _Fourth_ Gen, but Colt doesn't accept this designation.
Yep my 1992 nickel colt 3rd gen has the non separate bushing. My 2018 3rd gen has the separate bushing just like my 1st and 2nd gen. I’m still upset colt stopped offering the black powder pre-1896 frame after 2019 as a custom option.
My friend has an EAA Bounty hunter .45lc from the 1980s (not an exact SAA clone) and it has the bearing. I always wondered why it had that extra part in the cylinder and now I have my answer. Thanks for all the great episodes.
Also note the groove at the front of what you call the bearing. That groove should line up with the cylinder gap, and it serves a purpose. It is there in order to deflect fouling coming from the cylinder gap, so it doesn't blow into those rotating bits in the first place. This groove was a big improvement over the earlier percussion Colts, where high pressure gas leaking from the cylinder gap has an unimpeded path to the cylinder arbor and along it into the cylinder bearing surface. A similar grooved feature on the front of a cylinder can be seen on many other guns, but gets left out on some reproductions. Notably, some repros of the top break S&W Schofields (including the in-house S&W ones) have a longer cylinder than the originals in order to chamber the more readily available .45 Colt cartridge. In the same size frame opening, this longer cylinder eats up the space that should have been for the fouling deflector. They shortened the rear end of the barrel and eliminated the fouling deflector, which results in these repros seizing up from fouling much quicker than the originals did.
Great info, but to be fair, if your cambering .45 colt then black powder fouling likely isn't a huge deal as most ammo around for it is has been smokeless for quite some time, and I'm willing to bet the guns with fouling deflectors deleted are built to handle its use basically indefinitely. Just as colt themselves did when removing the bushing system shown for the 3rd gen SAAs in the 1970's. So the question is more about owners using the wrong powder for what they actually purchased (rather than what they are using it as stand in for) than it is about guns fouling faster than they should.
@@SheepInACart Except these were being sold for cowboy action shooting, where there is a separate division for black powder. Kind of a bummer if you buy gear for competitive use, then find it doesn't work.
I have the following: Uberti made, EMF marketed, with separate cylinder bushing. Uberti made, Stoeger marketed, "El Patron" with separate but captive (appears to be swaged at the rear) cylinder bushing. Uberti made, Cimarron marketed, "7th Cav model" with separate but captive cylinder bushing. Uberti made, Stoeger marketed, stainless, one piece cylinder. Pietta made, Cabela's marketed, nickel plated, one piece cylinder. Just some fyi.
I would not like that swaged type. It would be difficult to clean if black powder is used. What is even the point of the bushing if it is swaged? It is as though the manufacturer forgot it's actual purpose.
@@mikeyerke3920 To be fair that really isn't the issue (using black power that is), the issue is "correct" reproduction of a gun. If it was on their originally it should be on the repo.
And....this is exactly why I love your channel! I don't even own an 1873 yet...but now I won't buy a model that doesn't have 3 rotating surfaces! You're the man!
I had a Uberti Cattleman in .45 Colt with the removable cylinder bushing. I've ordered and trimmed Uberti-manufactured cylinder bushings to help rejuvenate Colt 1878 double-action guns.
I used to have an old pinch frame made around 1881. It was in .41 colt and eventually started to jamb up the cylinder once in a while. I just had to order a replacement cylinder bushing to replace the old worn one from Dixie Gun Works. Worked like a hot damn after that. This was in the early1980's.
I have three Uberti Pistols of the 1873 variety. Two are Sass pro's (short stroked pistols) and one is a 357 mag with the new floating firing pin that cams into place when the trigger is pulled. all three have the sleeve in the cylinder.
Great video! Thanks. The removable bearing was eliminated, and replaced with a pressed in bearing in 3rd Generation Colt's (approx. 1976-1982) approx. serial numbers SA80000 - SA99999 as a cost saving expediency. The SAA model was discontinued again (or slowed greatly, it is debatable) and resumed production again in 1993 with the increase in popularity of Cowboy Action Shooting. These revolvers again had the removeable bushing and the serial numbers changed from an "SA" prefix to an "S" prefix and "A" suffix starting at S02001A. These have been called "late 3rd generation" or 4th Generation models. Some reproductions have this feature, others don't.
No cylinder bushing on my Ruger Wrangler. There is an extension for the arbor that spans the (pretty wide - about 1/8") gap between the cylinder face and the frame, effectively shielding the arbor from fouling thrown out from the cylinder gap.
I have (2) Uberti Colt clones. An 1873 Cattleman El Patron CMS 4" in .45 Colt and a Cimarron (Uberti) 1873 Model P 4.75" chambered in .357mag/.38spec. Both of these are "New Model" (Pre War) and have the separate bushing that slides into the cylinder (exactly like the one in the video).
My American Arms revolver made by Uberti is as shown. My 3rd gen Colt is as others have mentioned. It does have a bit of a counterbore I assume to provide a place for fouling to collect.
Thanks for making these videos. It's like having a firearms encyclopedia at my disposal. I've learned more from RUclips than all my years in public school.
The Pietta SAA clones do have the bushing, but you need a hammer and punch to get them out. I suppose you could hone the cylinder and polish the bushing to get them to be a slip fit, but as manufactured, it is not a bearing surface in those repops.
I live in California, next to UCLA. I ordered a Ruger Old Army in the Mail, and it came in a nice little box, right to my door. That one didn't have the cylinder bushing, I have a Pietta Magical Colt1851 Navy in 44 caliber which takes a 45 colt cylinder... no bushing.. and each cylinder lines up perfectly with the barrel. I bought an Uberti Cattleman, in parkerized form, which was cool and all, however not only did it not have the bushing, but the cylinders were slightly offset from the barrel! I sold that one shortly after I bought it. That one was the most expensive one that I purchased, as all of these were used firearms, and that last Uberti was used but it looked like it was never fired, and I think I know why. It probably would have exploded. The other two were evidently shot a whole lot.
Arbor vs base pin, lock-up vs seized, bearing vs bushing. Pietta thunderball, with spring loaded cross pin, does not allow base pin to rotate as there are two cross pin reliefs only. One blocking the Hammer from the safety sear forward. There is a bushing, replaceable and non-rotating, with fouling deflection groove. It sets the cylinder gap, gunsmith removal only.
i have a colt from 1876. when shooting the cylinder would start binding around 40-50 rounds. i didn’t want it to get too bad so as to put too much strain on the old lock work. if i wiped the bearing surfaces with an oily rag i could get another 30 or so rounds out of it. after cleaning i started to use pure silicone on the surfaces. it would go 60-80 rds before a cleaning is required as it’s essentially dry after it’s sprayed on. and the fouling doesn’t seem to stick and gum up as fast as using oil.
I have two Uberti made Cimarron Old Model P's with the screw retained arbor with the bearing. I also have a Uberti made Cimarron Model P JR, which is a scaled down version of the SAA in 38spl or smaller calibers that does not have this bearing. I used to have a Taylor's in 357/38spl that I do not thing had this bearing.
I have an original Great Western (GWA) revolver from the 1950's. It's number is GW85 on the cylinder and it's chambered in 45LC. It does have this feature in the cylinder as well as an original Colt style hammer. These guns were manufactured like the original Colt 1st Generation models.
I have a mid 80’s SAA clone made in Germany, but marked by Hammerli in Switzerland, and it has the sleeve in the cylinder as well. I have never had any issues with it, but I did have an Italian clone of a Remington 1875, and even with smokeless powder, it was only good for about a dozen rounds before it started to drag and lock up.
I have an early American Western Arms PeaceKeeper in .45 Colt. 4-3/4-inch barrel, bone charcoal color cased hardened receiver and factory tuned trigger. These guns were imported from Italy as parts into Florida and Blued/Finished by Doug Turnbull Restorations in New York state. The frame is based on the early second gen which went away from the Black-powder screw frame in favor of the push-button detent style retainer. It came with two Cylinder pins (arbors) the first a clone of yours short pin and the other a long pin with two detent recesses. It has the same internal Cylinder Bushing/Bearing as yours. So, it does retain the earlier black-powder frame feature, I use Rig grease there. The fit and finish I would put against any Colt I've ever come across. It will hold a 1-3/8-inch group at 25-yards with Speer Idaho Territory 230 lead bullets. It's that good.
Mine is "Uburti USA Lakeville CT" marked that is a "black powder frame" .45 Colt with the screw in the frame to hold the pin like yours. The screw seems to prevent the pin from turning. The sleeve "bearing" turns freely and there is maybe 1/16 " play back and forth in the cylinder, but for some reason dosen't want to come out like yours. I see no need to force it as a little CLP allowed to get into the bearing surface keeps it free .
My Uberti clone made in about 2014 has it. I think most of the Uberti's are based on the 1st and 2nd gen colts which had the cylinder bushings. Interesting enough my 3rd gen colt doesn't have a cylinder bushing. Though apparently colt stopped using them in the late 70's/early 80's and then reintroduced the bushing in the late 90's.
I have two Stoeger-Accokeek, MD - Uberti Italy and one is the El Patron Belleza .45 Colt and the other is just listed as the Mod. 1873 .45 Colt and neither have the rotating cylinder piece you describe. I have seen it on other guns and just assumed it was a change Uberti made because of the smokeless powder of today. I thought they were exact copies till I got these a few years ago.
I have my grandpa’s .22 Western Marshall, cheap German import SAA clone from the 50s, cast frame and cylinder. It does not have the extra bearing. Being a .22 that I could probably keep clean with a q-tip, it was probably smart to leave it out.
Othias: I have a Armi San Marcos SAA in 32-20. it has a staked center pin with a screw that holds it in place. I have never been able to remove the cylinder.
My uberti cattleman new model 1873 repro has the bearing. It is in my experience pretty much identical to the original minus the slightly longer arbor that also acts as a safety since it is an import
A little odd using non-Colt names for parts - I’m used to Colt calling your Arbor, the Base Pin. Colt themselves did away with the base pin bushing on a large portion of the 3rd generation SAA
The problem is that Colt’s SAA has a device called a Bolt, that S&W would call a Cylinder Stop. S&W’s Bolt is sometimes called a ‘cylinder catch’ by folks trying to use a more descriptive name. Anyway - I always try to use the manufacturer’s terminology when describing or labeling parts.
@@GunsmithSid A cylinder stop is used on Colt and S&W double action revolvers to keep the cylinders from falling out of the cylinder cranes when you swing the cylinders out to load or unload the cylinder. It is that little nub of steel on the left side at the lower rear of the cylinder window.
@@robertmurdock9750 Not unless something has changed in the last 120 years. The part number 215080000 is the cylinder stop for all K,L,N, and X frame revolvers from Smith and Wesson. It is the part that keeps the cylinder from rotating. The part that keep the cylinder from falling off of the yoke when open is called the frame lug. An example part number would be 076660000. I have replaced and fit both of these.
So first off your pun is bad and you should feel bad. But second, I suspect they've done away with this kind of bearing, as it would require more operations/parts to construct.
Clever. I never knew that. I wish that I still had the .31 caliber cap-and-ball revolver I got as a kid to check, although a cheap CAB replica probably did not. I'm pretty sure my Ruger Old Army replica did not have this feature. That pistol's biggest issue was that I habitually charged it to the max with a heavy bullet and compressed powder load causing it to blow the percussion caps off, jamming the cylinder.
The Piettas have the bushing, but the stock base pin doesn't have a groove cut all around, so it doesn't turn in the frame. I still didn't manage to foul my 1873s to the point they stopped working. My Uberti Shofields on the other hand seize after a few shots, sometimes as few as two (!), if I don't take any countermaesures.
I also have a Uberti Schofield that seizes. Their repair shop tried to blame the Starline brass and said their Factory made ammo worked fine. I told him that I had NEVER seen factory ammo as when I bought my Winchester in 44-40 the only people making 44-40 was Winchester and they wanted $50 for box of 20! What counter measures do you take, Please….
@@samiam619 magtech makes factory ammo, but only smokeless. About a buck a bang... but even with this ammo, the gun gets hard to cycle after a box. I use some assembly paste on the base pin. But any thick lube should work. Basically it takes all the space the fouling could get to, but is thick enough to withstand being blown away instantly. Lube the base pin completely, especially the front. But even with that, I need to take out the cylinders, clean and relube the base pin after two cylinders fired, when using black powder. The gun won't seize at that point, but gets sticky and slow to cycle.
Uberti Cattlemen 1873 clone, purchased in 2019 has the “bearing”. No longer clicks four times when pulling back hammer, but still super close to Original Colt design.
Most Italian replicas have that same setup. Colt themselves went away with it an the 1980s and 1990s.then went back to this style Sometime in the late 1990s or early 2000s.
2000, Armi San Marco made, EMF SA imported New Dakota Model; no bushing. 2017, Pietta made, Taylor's imported Outlaw Legacy; no bushing. 2020, Uberti made, Cimarron Arms imported US Volunteer Artillery Model; Bushing.
My Uberti 1873 clone did have the dual arbor arrangement, as did the clone of the colt centerfire conversion pattern with the loading gate. The rough rider .22 did not, although the hammer was drawn back 4 clicks to fire...
I got a Pietta Thunderer that didnt bother with the internal bushing. Kinda ticks me off. Locks up after about 20 rounds of BPCR. Had to repair my hand in it learning that little fact.
I have 2 ubertis and 4 colts. My 2017 uberti has all those like yours it’s post 1896 with the cross pin and 4 click hammer with the visible safety under the firing pin. My 2109 uberti is a pre 1896 frame and the barrel bushing is non removable and it has the new hidden safety. My 1st gen 1913 Colt has all the parts as does my 1956 first year of 2nd generation gun. My 1992 3rd generation the bushing is non removable. My 2018 3rd gen colt has the removable bushing so they went back to it. All of my colts are post 1896 frame with the cross pin. In 2019 colt discontinued the pre-1896 frame as a custom shop option. So anyone with one of those, especially original 1st gens(which were already collectable) have all skyrocketed in value. I shoot black powder hand loads through my ubertis but not my colt. But unfortunately they took the black powder helping parts out of all the s&w model 3 reproductions to fit longer modern more popular and obtainable cartridges. So they do horribly with black powder unless you use very shortened cartridges with moderate black powder loads. I have to shoot 45 schofield or super short 45 cowboy special out of my uberti schofield just so it’s somewhat reliable.
I have one it would be a storekeeper model no ejector rod, the marking on the barrel is Army Jager Italy and below that is Dakota cal 45 colt , on the bottom EMF-CO-CA It functions as you described and it has an extra function to with the hammer in the loading position it has an extra notch in the cylinder rod to push back through the frame as a safety it locks into place quite securely no way for the hammer to fall
@@PALACIO254 I've only put a couple hundred rounds through mine light handloads between 700 to 800 feet per second and I haven't had any issues with it it locks up tight but it does have quite a bit of trigger creep the main thing I don't like about it is the fact that it has Italian proof marks everywhere all over the gun three on the right side of the barrel and three on the right side of the frame and two on the cylinder who's the three and a half inch barrel point of impact is very low I ended up falling down the front sight for the loads that I shoot all that being said the fit and function seems very nice
My Ruger Vaquero, second year of production original style, does not have a separate bearing. In fact the bearing looks to be one piece with the star and is milled flat to rest against the frame.
Just a note, Othais: the links in your description, the Is Your Revolver Properly Timed? link sends viewers to your clips on Commerical Large Bore Abadie revolvers.
I have several Ruger Old Army Revolvers and they do not have this bushing. I know, I know, the Ruger is not a clone of any Colt or Remington, for that matter and it is a cap and ball revolver, but; I like many Cowboy Action Shooters use conversion cylinders in these revolvers to fire 45 Colt ammunition in these. I have for years used only actual black powder in mine, not one of the modern less fouling substitutes. The conversion cylinders work fine and do not have the bushing design. These revolvers are fired in competition much more than the Colt SAAs ever were in service. Just look at the historic listing of army issued rounds per man in the late 1800s. I also had Colts with the bushing that would never foul up and a Ruger New Model Blackhawk in 327 Federal that would run on black powder just fine. I did have a pair of Navy Arms Schofields in 45 Colt and after only 1 cylinder of BP rounds they were useless.
I have 2 Uberti Cattleman form 2005. A stainless one and one with brass and all black. None have that sleeve. Both the cylinder pins can lock back as a hammer block. (Swiss safe.) My BP Cattleman I got for under $150 on clearance NIB. Does not.
Great vid, Othias! Indeed, some of the Italian clones do not have the separate cylinder bushing. A real pity as the feature truly aids the gun's reliability.
Some Colt’s have them, some don’t. My guess is that those made after the advent to smokeless powder this was left off. My USFA do not have the Bering, My Sam Colt sesquicentennial does my New Frontier does not.
This has made me wonder something I never considered: what did they use for grease/lubrication and cleaning in the 1870s? Just hot soapy water for the black powder? Some kind of alcohol or kerosene product for cleaning? Wagon wheel grease?
Hot soapy water is still the go to best cleaning agent fot BP. I also had not given much thought to the transition of lubricants from combinations of Beeswax, tallow or lard and whale oil to petroleum-based products. Spermiceti, a fine oil extracted from the jawbones of sperm whales, is still considered an excellent fine machine oil even after it was banned in this country. The 19th century would have started with the beeswax based products then with the poliferation of petroleom products as the century progressed, ended with almost exclusively petroleum-based products but exactly how that transition took place hasn't been talked about much. It is still commonly stated that you shouldn't use a petroleom based product for bullet lube with BP but I think that belief has been pretty well put to rest these days. It seems that it isn't the source that matters so much but the quantity of lube that matters. I have had great success and stuck with my own combination of beeswax, soywax, crisco and Ballistol, a modification of Dastardly Dick's "Pearl Lube" for my bullet lube and straight Balistol for the internals.
The fouling and residues are water soluble, so the issue is getting around the grease mixed in. Soap does the job excellently, but if you didn't have soap out in the field for your guns then heating the water up so you can melt away the grease or wax would do the trick.
![Cleaver Restoration [Black Cleaver With Ebony Handle]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qoqfCg-qs3E/mqdefault.jpg)
On the early Third Generation Colt SAAs, Colt did skip this feature as a cost cutting measure (eliminating the cylinder bushing as a separate piece from the cylinder), but due to many complaints from enthusiasts, they eventually (around 1999) went back to making them with a real cylinder bushing as a separate part. I have a 2005 Colt SAA with the original separate bushing. Many collectors eschew early 3rd Gen Colt SAAs for precisely this reason, and many classify post 1998 Colt SAAs as _Fourth_ Gen, but Colt doesn't accept this designation.
I really hope CZ puts the screws to colt and makes them stop being dysfunctional and stupid.
Yep my 1992 nickel colt 3rd gen has the non separate bushing. My 2018 3rd gen has the separate bushing just like my 1st and 2nd gen. I’m still upset colt stopped offering the black powder pre-1896 frame after 2019 as a custom option.
My friend has an EAA Bounty hunter .45lc from the 1980s (not an exact SAA clone) and it has the bearing. I always wondered why it had that extra part in the cylinder and now I have my answer. Thanks for all the great episodes.
Also note the groove at the front of what you call the bearing. That groove should line up with the cylinder gap, and it serves a purpose. It is there in order to deflect fouling coming from the cylinder gap, so it doesn't blow into those rotating bits in the first place. This groove was a big improvement over the earlier percussion Colts, where high pressure gas leaking from the cylinder gap has an unimpeded path to the cylinder arbor and along it into the cylinder bearing surface.
A similar grooved feature on the front of a cylinder can be seen on many other guns, but gets left out on some reproductions. Notably, some repros of the top break S&W Schofields (including the in-house S&W ones) have a longer cylinder than the originals in order to chamber the more readily available .45 Colt cartridge. In the same size frame opening, this longer cylinder eats up the space that should have been for the fouling deflector. They shortened the rear end of the barrel and eliminated the fouling deflector, which results in these repros seizing up from fouling much quicker than the originals did.
Thank you for the info!
Great info, but to be fair, if your cambering .45 colt then black powder fouling likely isn't a huge deal as most ammo around for it is has been smokeless for quite some time, and I'm willing to bet the guns with fouling deflectors deleted are built to handle its use basically indefinitely. Just as colt themselves did when removing the bushing system shown for the 3rd gen SAAs in the 1970's. So the question is more about owners using the wrong powder for what they actually purchased (rather than what they are using it as stand in for) than it is about guns fouling faster than they should.
@@SheepInACart Except these were being sold for cowboy action shooting, where there is a separate division for black powder. Kind of a bummer if you buy gear for competitive use, then find it doesn't work.
@Kaboomf; TY! 4Nfo!
The early "black powder frame" Colts had a screw that bore on the arbour, effectively stopping it from rotating.
I have the following: Uberti made, EMF marketed, with separate cylinder bushing. Uberti made, Stoeger marketed, "El Patron" with separate but captive (appears to be swaged at the rear) cylinder bushing. Uberti made, Cimarron marketed, "7th Cav model" with separate but captive cylinder bushing. Uberti made, Stoeger marketed, stainless, one piece cylinder. Pietta made, Cabela's marketed, nickel plated, one piece cylinder. Just some fyi.
The separate but captive feature was unexpected. Wouldn’t that be difficult to clean?
I would not like that swaged type. It would be difficult to clean if black powder is used. What is even the point of the bushing if it is swaged? It is as though the manufacturer forgot it's actual purpose.
Dang, my heritage rough rider definitely doesn't have that lol
It sure puts a smile on your face though! 🇺🇸
You’re shooting with modern powders, so you shouldn’t encounter any problems as long as you keep her relatively clean. Not a bad revolver, by the way.
I got one and it's a fine .22 SA plinker for the money.
But of course, having a Ruger single six with adjustable sights is preferable.
@@mikeyerke3920 To be fair that really isn't the issue (using black power that is), the issue is "correct" reproduction of a gun. If it was on their originally it should be on the repo.
sigh grammar error above. I'm going to leave it but still...
And....this is exactly why I love your channel! I don't even own an 1873 yet...but now I won't buy a model that doesn't have 3 rotating surfaces! You're the man!
I have an E.M.F 2 Californian 45 Colt. Although the bushing is tightly fitted and not rotating in the cylinder, they are separate pieces.
I have an Uberti Cattleman and it has a bearing. I shoot black powder a lot and it has never fouled.
I had a Uberti Cattleman in .45 Colt with the removable cylinder bushing. I've ordered and trimmed Uberti-manufactured cylinder bushings to help rejuvenate Colt 1878 double-action guns.
I used to have an old pinch frame made around 1881. It was in .41 colt and eventually started to jamb up the cylinder once in a while. I just had to order a replacement cylinder bushing to replace the old worn one from Dixie Gun Works. Worked like a hot damn after that. This was in the early1980's.
I have three Uberti Pistols of the 1873 variety. Two are Sass pro's (short stroked pistols) and one is a 357 mag with the new floating firing pin that cams into place when the trigger is pulled. all three have the sleeve in the cylinder.
Great video! Thanks.
The removable bearing was eliminated, and replaced with a pressed in bearing in 3rd Generation Colt's (approx. 1976-1982) approx. serial numbers SA80000 - SA99999 as a cost saving expediency. The SAA model was discontinued again (or slowed greatly, it is debatable) and resumed production again in 1993 with the increase in popularity of Cowboy Action Shooting. These revolvers again had the removeable bushing and the serial numbers changed from an "SA" prefix to an "S" prefix and "A" suffix starting at S02001A. These have been called "late 3rd generation" or 4th Generation models.
Some reproductions have this feature, others don't.
Not necessarily, unless at some point my Colt had a cylinder swap. It's a SA60000
No cylinder bushing on my Ruger Wrangler. There is an extension for the arbor that spans the (pretty wide - about 1/8") gap between the cylinder face and the frame, effectively shielding the arbor from fouling thrown out from the cylinder gap.
Your Wrangler is a .22. It's a new gun that has never, and will never, see black powder.
I have (2) Uberti Colt clones.
An 1873 Cattleman El Patron CMS 4" in .45 Colt and a Cimarron (Uberti) 1873 Model P 4.75" chambered in .357mag/.38spec.
Both of these are "New Model" (Pre War) and have the separate bushing that slides into the cylinder (exactly like the one in the video).
I have a Heritage Big Bore manufactured by Pietta and it does not have the extra bearing.
My American Arms revolver made by Uberti is as shown. My 3rd gen Colt is as others have mentioned. It does have a bit of a counterbore I assume to provide a place for fouling to collect.
Thanks for making these videos. It's like having a firearms encyclopedia at my disposal. I've learned more from RUclips than all my years in public school.
true
The Pietta SAA clones do have the bushing, but you need a hammer and punch to get them out. I suppose you could hone the cylinder and polish the bushing to get them to be a slip fit, but as manufactured, it is not a bearing surface in those repops.
Yes, my Cimarron, Pietta SAA 7th Cav. clone made in 2019 has that bushing too and like you said you would need a hammer and a punch to get it out.
Something else I noticed with my Pietta is that the cylinder pin does not rotate as the cylinder turns like the one in the video.
The US was pretty behind in terms of double action but it’s hard to fault the 73 for reliability.
I live in California, next to UCLA. I ordered a Ruger Old Army in the Mail, and it came in a nice little box, right to my door. That one didn't have the cylinder bushing, I have a Pietta Magical Colt1851 Navy in 44 caliber which takes a 45 colt cylinder... no bushing.. and each cylinder lines up perfectly with the barrel. I bought an Uberti Cattleman, in parkerized form, which was cool and all, however not only did it not have the bushing, but the cylinders were slightly offset from the barrel! I sold that one shortly after I bought it. That one was the most expensive one that I purchased, as all of these were used firearms, and that last Uberti was used but it looked like it was never fired, and I think I know why. It probably would have exploded. The other two were evidently shot a whole lot.
Arbor vs base pin, lock-up vs seized, bearing vs bushing. Pietta thunderball, with spring loaded cross pin, does not allow base pin to rotate as there are two cross pin reliefs only. One blocking the Hammer from the safety sear forward. There is a bushing, replaceable and non-rotating, with fouling deflection groove. It sets the cylinder gap, gunsmith removal only.
I bought a Cimarron Evil Roy in .357 magnum last November and it has the bearing in it. It is Uberti built and still has the four click hammer.
i have a colt from 1876. when shooting the cylinder would start binding around 40-50 rounds. i didn’t want it to get too bad so as to put too much strain on the old lock work. if i wiped the bearing surfaces with an oily rag i could get another 30 or so rounds out of it. after cleaning i started to use pure silicone on the surfaces. it would go 60-80 rds before a cleaning is required as it’s essentially dry after it’s sprayed on. and the fouling doesn’t seem to stick and gum up as fast as using oil.
Was this a feature in other contemporaries such as the s&w no 3, the Nagant, the reichsrevolvers, webleys, etc.?
I have a 2nd Gen colt .357 with 7 1/2 barrel. And real stag grips. I found it in my attic under a sowing machine. It has the cylinder sleeve.
Thanks for the explanation. I've wondered before what that thing was.
I have two Uberti made Cimarron Old Model P's with the screw retained arbor with the bearing. I also have a Uberti made Cimarron Model P JR, which is a scaled down version of the SAA in 38spl or smaller calibers that does not have this bearing. I used to have a Taylor's in 357/38spl that I do not thing had this bearing.
I have an original Great Western (GWA) revolver from the 1950's. It's number is GW85 on the cylinder and it's chambered in 45LC. It does have this feature in the cylinder as well as an original Colt style hammer. These guns were manufactured like the original Colt 1st Generation models.
I have a mid 80’s SAA clone made in Germany, but marked by Hammerli in Switzerland, and it has the sleeve in the cylinder as well. I have never had any issues with it, but I did have an Italian clone of a Remington 1875, and even with smokeless powder, it was only good for about a dozen rounds before it started to drag and lock up.
I have an early American Western Arms PeaceKeeper in .45 Colt. 4-3/4-inch barrel, bone charcoal color cased hardened receiver and factory tuned trigger. These guns were imported from Italy as parts into Florida and Blued/Finished by Doug Turnbull Restorations in New York state. The frame is based on the early second gen which went away from the Black-powder screw frame in favor of the push-button detent style retainer. It came with two Cylinder pins (arbors) the first a clone of yours short pin and the other a long pin with two detent recesses. It has the same internal Cylinder Bushing/Bearing as yours. So, it does retain the earlier black-powder frame feature, I use Rig grease there. The fit and finish I would put against any Colt I've ever come across. It will hold a 1-3/8-inch group at 25-yards with Speer Idaho Territory 230 lead bullets. It's that good.
A few years ago I picked up an old Armi Jager "Dakota" reproduction in 357. It has the intermediate bearing.
That is absolute genius engineering, thanks for the talk!!
I have two El Patrons, made by Stoeger in .45, and both have the bearing surface inserts. They work great and I use them for Cowboy Action shooting.
The old wheel gun channel is back!
Mine is "Uburti USA Lakeville CT" marked that is a "black powder frame" .45 Colt with the screw in the frame to hold the pin like yours. The screw seems to prevent the pin from turning. The sleeve "bearing" turns freely and there is maybe 1/16 " play back and forth in the cylinder, but for some reason dosen't want to come out like yours. I see no need to force it as a little CLP allowed to get into the bearing surface keeps it free .
This is such a cool gun!
Thanks Othias!
I have a matching pair of Uberti Cattleman 2's in .45 colt and they do indeed have the things. But now I know the proper names for the things as well.
Some Pietta reproductions do have a cylinder bushing, and some don't. I have one of each. But they are true 4 click actions, no safety gizmos.
I never knew that until i watched your 1878 yesterday
Thanks for all the hard work
I have an Uberti clone in .357 and it definitely has that extra bearing.
Just saw this on the 1878 episode when you showed they used surplus 1873 cylinders on them as well. Cool
My 45LC 1873 Taylor and Co (Uberti) Cattlemen has it.
If "clips" was ever written down it would be a "magazine". ^_^
My Uberti clone made in about 2014 has it. I think most of the Uberti's are based on the 1st and 2nd gen colts which had the cylinder bushings. Interesting enough my 3rd gen colt doesn't have a cylinder bushing. Though apparently colt stopped using them in the late 70's/early 80's and then reintroduced the bushing in the late 90's.
Yes my Uberti Ranch Hand 4.75 45 LC is set up the same way.
I have two Stoeger-Accokeek, MD - Uberti Italy and one is the El Patron Belleza .45 Colt and the other is just listed as the Mod. 1873 .45 Colt and neither have the rotating cylinder piece you describe. I have seen it on other guns and just assumed it was a change Uberti made because of the smokeless powder of today. I thought they were exact copies till I got these a few years ago.
Need to check mine when I get home. It's a Traditions Frontier SAA in .357 Magnum.
Nope! My cylinder is all one piece! Cylinder, arbor, ratchet... All one piece of machined steel.
I have a Pietta but never knew to check for this
I have my grandpa’s .22 Western Marshall, cheap German import SAA clone from the 50s, cast frame and cylinder. It does not have the extra bearing. Being a .22 that I could probably keep clean with a q-tip, it was probably smart to leave it out.
My Cimarron SAA, made by Uberti, has the bushing.
Something new to me.
My 1873 uberti 45 colt has this.
Thanks - great video.
Othias: I have a Armi San Marcos SAA in 32-20. it has a staked center pin with a screw that holds it in place. I have never been able to remove the cylinder.
My uberti cattleman new model 1873 repro has the bearing. It is in my experience pretty much identical to the original minus the slightly longer arbor that also acts as a safety since it is an import
my 2005 uberti has it. oddly it spins in the cylinder when installed but i need to drift it out with a brass punch for cleaning.
Terrific datum, Thanks You.
Both of my earlier Uberti BP frame replicas have the bushing.
A little odd using non-Colt names for parts - I’m used to Colt calling your Arbor, the Base Pin. Colt themselves did away with the base pin bushing on a large portion of the 3rd generation SAA
Companies in government shouldn't have a monopoly on describing things. If they call something an axis and I call it a pivot pin both are correct.
The problem is that Colt’s SAA has a device called a Bolt, that S&W would call a Cylinder Stop. S&W’s Bolt is sometimes called a ‘cylinder catch’ by folks trying to use a more descriptive name. Anyway - I always try to use the manufacturer’s terminology when describing or labeling parts.
@@GunsmithSid A cylinder stop is used on Colt and S&W double action revolvers to keep the cylinders from falling out of the cylinder cranes when you swing the cylinders out to load or unload the cylinder. It is that little nub of steel on the left side at the lower rear of the cylinder window.
@@robertmurdock9750 Not unless something has changed in the last 120 years. The part number 215080000 is the cylinder stop for all K,L,N, and X frame revolvers from Smith and Wesson. It is the part that keeps the cylinder from rotating. The part that keep the cylinder from falling off of the yoke when open is called the frame lug. An example part number would be 076660000. I have replaced and fit both of these.
Do revolvers still have concentric bearings or have manufacturers managed to.... roll with the changes?
So first off your pun is bad and you should feel bad. But second, I suspect they've done away with this kind of bearing, as it would require more operations/parts to construct.
@@thetruerift I'll never feel bad about quoting REO 'cause it's the only thing I want to do.
@@starkparker16 So true! I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend.
@@thetruerift the pistols are still made with the multiple parts. at least the colt & copies are.
Clever. I never knew that. I wish that I still had the .31 caliber cap-and-ball revolver I got as a kid to check, although a cheap CAB replica probably did not. I'm pretty sure my Ruger Old Army replica did not have this feature. That pistol's biggest issue was that I habitually charged it to the max with a heavy bullet and compressed powder load causing it to blow the percussion caps off, jamming the cylinder.
The Piettas have the bushing, but the stock base pin doesn't have a groove cut all around, so it doesn't turn in the frame. I still didn't manage to foul my 1873s to the point they stopped working. My Uberti Shofields on the other hand seize after a few shots, sometimes as few as two (!), if I don't take any countermaesures.
I also have a Uberti Schofield that seizes. Their repair shop tried to blame the Starline brass and said their Factory made ammo worked fine. I told him that I had NEVER seen factory ammo as when I bought my Winchester in 44-40 the only people making 44-40 was Winchester and they wanted $50 for box of 20! What counter measures do you take, Please….
@@samiam619 magtech makes factory ammo, but only smokeless. About a buck a bang... but even with this ammo, the gun gets hard to cycle after a box.
I use some assembly paste on the base pin. But any thick lube should work. Basically it takes all the space the fouling could get to, but is thick enough to withstand being blown away instantly. Lube the base pin completely, especially the front.
But even with that, I need to take out the cylinders, clean and relube the base pin after two cylinders fired, when using black powder. The gun won't seize at that point, but gets sticky and slow to cycle.
Uberti Cattlemen 1873 clone, purchased in 2019 has the “bearing”. No longer clicks four times when pulling back hammer, but still super close to Original Colt design.
Never knew this about the Colt's. Outstanding.
Never heard it referred to as the “arbor.”
Most Italian replicas have that same setup. Colt themselves went away with it an the 1980s and 1990s.then went back to this style Sometime in the late 1990s or early 2000s.
2000, Armi San Marco made, EMF SA imported New Dakota Model; no bushing. 2017, Pietta made, Taylor's imported Outlaw Legacy; no bushing. 2020, Uberti made, Cimarron Arms imported US Volunteer Artillery Model; Bushing.
I have a recent Pietta reproduction, and it does not have a separate bushing.
Didn't know this. I'll check mine. Thanks👍!
Mine has the separate bearing. Umberti purchased 18 years ago, chambered for .45 colt.
My Uberti 1873 clone did have the dual arbor arrangement, as did the clone of the colt centerfire conversion pattern with the loading gate. The rough rider .22 did not, although the hammer was drawn back 4 clicks to fire...
Simple Fact: Greatest Handgun Designed Ever
Ive got a Berretta Stampede, made for them by Uberti, from 2003 or so and it does not seem to have the bushing
I got a Pietta Thunderer that didnt bother with the internal bushing. Kinda ticks me off. Locks up after about 20 rounds of BPCR. Had to repair my hand in it learning that little fact.
I have an Arminus, made in Germany SAA 4 1/4" barrel in .45 colt, the separate part is there. Can't find any real info on the revolver online...
I have 2 ubertis and 4 colts. My 2017 uberti has all those like yours it’s post 1896 with the cross pin and 4 click hammer with the visible safety under the firing pin. My 2109 uberti is a pre 1896 frame and the barrel bushing is non removable and it has the new hidden safety. My 1st gen 1913 Colt has all the parts as does my 1956 first year of 2nd generation gun. My 1992 3rd generation the bushing is non removable. My 2018 3rd gen colt has the removable bushing so they went back to it. All of my colts are post 1896 frame with the cross pin. In 2019 colt discontinued the pre-1896 frame as a custom shop option. So anyone with one of those, especially original 1st gens(which were already collectable) have all skyrocketed in value. I shoot black powder hand loads through my ubertis but not my colt. But unfortunately they took the black powder helping parts out of all the s&w model 3 reproductions to fit longer modern more popular and obtainable cartridges. So they do horribly with black powder unless you use very shortened cartridges with moderate black powder loads. I have to shoot 45 schofield or super short 45 cowboy special out of my uberti schofield just so it’s somewhat reliable.
I have a cimarron model p 5.5” in 357mag and it has the extra bearing in it
I have one it would be a storekeeper model no ejector rod, the marking on the barrel is Army Jager Italy and below that is Dakota cal 45 colt , on the bottom EMF-CO-CA
It functions as you described and it has an extra function to with the hammer in the loading position it has an extra notch in the cylinder rod to push back through the frame as a safety it locks into place quite securely no way for the hammer to fall
Is the armi jager a good revolver? I plan on getting one in 357.
@@PALACIO254 I've only put a couple hundred rounds through mine light handloads between 700 to 800 feet per second and I haven't had any issues with it it locks up tight but it does have quite a bit of trigger creep the main thing I don't like about it is the fact that it has Italian proof marks everywhere all over the gun three on the right side of the barrel and three on the right side of the frame and two on the cylinder who's the three and a half inch barrel point of impact is very low I ended up falling down the front sight for the loads that I shoot all that being said the fit and function seems very nice
@@rjoetting7594 thank you for the information
Not a 1:1 reproduction of the SAA, but my Ruger New Vaquero does not have the separate bearing piece
My Uberti Cattleman II has the cylinder bushing.
My Ruger Vaquero, second year of production original style, does not have a separate bearing. In fact the bearing looks to be one piece with the star and is milled flat to rest against the frame.
Just a note, Othais: the links in your description, the Is Your Revolver Properly Timed? link sends viewers to your clips on Commerical Large Bore Abadie revolvers.
I have a Navy Arms reproduction that looks exactly like your gun. Not surprisingly, it does have the arbor. Thanks for explaining the purpose.
I have several Ruger Old Army Revolvers and they do not have this bushing. I know, I know, the Ruger is not a clone of any Colt or Remington, for that matter and it is a cap and ball revolver, but; I like many Cowboy Action Shooters use conversion cylinders in these revolvers to fire 45 Colt ammunition in these. I have for years used only actual black powder in mine, not one of the modern less fouling substitutes. The conversion cylinders work fine and do not have the bushing design. These revolvers are fired in competition much more than the Colt SAAs ever were in service. Just look at the historic listing of army issued rounds per man in the late 1800s. I also had Colts with the bushing that would never foul up and a Ruger New Model Blackhawk in 327 Federal that would run on black powder just fine. I did have a pair of Navy Arms Schofields in 45 Colt and after only 1 cylinder of BP rounds they were useless.
I have 2 Uberti Cattleman form 2005. A stainless one and one with brass and all black. None have that sleeve. Both the cylinder pins can lock back as a hammer block. (Swiss safe.) My BP Cattleman I got for under $150 on clearance NIB. Does not.
I have a Uberti copy of an 1875 Remington, I'm going to check it for this 'Colt' innovation. I'm curious now.
Now i want to check my grandfathers SAA from the early 1900s!
Great vid, Othias! Indeed, some of the Italian clones do not have the separate cylinder bushing. A real pity as the feature truly aids the gun's reliability.
Cimarron 1873 SAA has the bearing. Also has the damnable floating firing lawyer pin.
I have an Armi San Marco Hartford model from EMF and it is bult just like an original Colt.
Uberti El Patron in .357. Yes, it has the arbor.
Some Colt’s have them, some don’t. My guess is that those made after the advent to smokeless powder this was left off. My USFA do not have the Bering, My Sam Colt sesquicentennial does my New Frontier does not.
My 1873 cattlemen, is exactly like the one in the video,with a sleeve bearing.
Thx. I learned something.
My chiappa 1873 22 has a separate bearing, gotta check my others
My cimarron evil Roy is designed exactly like this, it a one heck of a straight shooter in 357mag
Does Ruger Vaquero have this extra bearing? I can't remember seeing it when I used to own a Vaquero.
My “old model” Vaquero does not. Do not know about the new model Ruger brought out to cater to the popularity of CAS.
My Armi San Marco has has all three.
Thank you O
Change "Lock Up" to "Bind Up". The cylinder does "Lock Up" as the cylinder lock engages. Wrong terms used here.
This has made me wonder something I never considered: what did they use for grease/lubrication and cleaning in the 1870s? Just hot soapy water for the black powder? Some kind of alcohol or kerosene product for cleaning? Wagon wheel grease?
Hot soapy water is still the go to best cleaning agent fot BP. I also had not given much thought to the transition of lubricants from combinations of Beeswax, tallow or lard and whale oil to petroleum-based products. Spermiceti, a fine oil extracted from the jawbones of
sperm whales, is still considered an excellent fine machine oil even after it was banned in this country. The 19th century would have started with the beeswax based products then with the poliferation of petroleom products as the century progressed, ended with almost exclusively petroleum-based products but exactly how that transition took place hasn't been talked about much.
It is still commonly stated that you shouldn't use a petroleom based product for bullet lube with BP but I think that belief has been pretty well put to rest these days. It seems that it isn't the source that matters so much but the quantity of lube that matters. I have had great success and stuck with my own combination of beeswax, soywax, crisco and Ballistol, a modification of Dastardly Dick's "Pearl Lube" for my bullet lube and straight Balistol for the internals.
The fouling and residues are water soluble, so the issue is getting around the grease mixed in. Soap does the job excellently, but if you didn't have soap out in the field for your guns then heating the water up so you can melt away the grease or wax would do the trick.