Female Diksa Gurus-This Is Just The Beginning
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2022
- #FDG #GenderEquality #MissionDrift
Recorded on September 11, 2022 in Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Dear most Guru Maharaja, i love you, in particular how bold and fearless you are, my deepest respect !!
Whatever one might think about, we follow certain rules regarding sex life. It's allowed for "producing" children. That's all. Who ever wants to show up and practise any "special" sexual orientation might be welcome for programs etc but can't become an initiated devotee. There is no question of becoming guru for anyone who practices sex life outside the given rules.
Correct. You speak the truth
It all depends on the mercy of the initiating Spiritual Master. As long as they observe the four regulative principles and chant at least sixteen, there shouldn't be any problem. But that's for the initiating Spiritual Master to decide, and definitely not for you. Hare Krishna, all blessings.
Hare krsna Guru Maharaja
It’s so sad to see how Iskcon has become more an social institution than a bonafide spiritual institution based on the Vedic scriptures. We already become an apasampradaya. Shame on us
But still I am very grateful to Krsna because you are speaking the truth for those sincere souls, others will be cheated because this is what they are looking for.
Very true. The Vedic scriptures actually say that women shouldn't be educated outside the home, nor should shudras cuz they're not intelligent. Women are the property of men, end of story. Swami Prabhupada said this. It's the Vedic point of view. Anyone who wants to argue otherwise is now confusing the Vedas with neo Hinduism, which is only about 300 years old and a feel-good modern religion that is totally corrupt and not scriptural. If you want girls to go to school then you don't want a vedic society. all we need to do is look around and our schools are full of girls. They even outnumbered the boys in colleges. And they're not being married when they start menstruating, but are becoming whores and prostitutes. While the abundance of shudras being educated is probably why our school system is so broken. We're teaching people who are just meant for manual labor. So yes it is time to bring things back to a Vedic way. Women should be property again just like sita was to Rama. remove the girls from our schools and get them married, teach the boys who are worth teaching and none of this history or English or math but let's just get back to the basics of learning the vedic scriptures. You can learn history by reading the Mahabharata and you can learn science by reading the srimad bhagavatam. No reason to waste our time with lives and more lies about science and history and whatever. So let's dump this neo Hinduism that wants women to be educated, and bring back the old Vedic ways! Also save governments so much money. Haribol.
I think Prabhuji Krsna makes arrangements for cheating and teaching together. Hare Krsna. All glories to Bhakti Vikas Swami.
There are so many " so called " leader in Iskcon who are simply giving the permission to this bogus ideas to get the pace with the contemporary material society in the name of Prabhupada teaching.
In this way they ruined the mission of prabhupada by acting on their own way and neglecting prabhupada teaching.
Iskcon is already fighting mayavadi forces who are trying to malign the essence of srila prabhupada'd teachings. This move on FDG will undoubtedly place a ready saw in their hands.
This is nonsense .
Colonial power are coming from other gates
Hare Krishna.
Dandavat Pranam.
Very true Maharaj.
Mission of Srila Prabhupada must be forwarded ahead based on His teachings and the way Srila Prabhupada wanted.
Thank you Maharaj for enlightening.
Yas
HareKrishna Guru Maharaj ji... Dandavat Pranamam Maharaj ji 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Hare Krishna! I love the sarcasm of Maharaj in this talk especially when he acts as if the main goal of ISKCON is to be in line with contemporary society and to avoid being alienated by "the present, savvy generation who are much more enlightened than people in the past were".
In all seriousness though, contemporary society is becoming so ridiculously demoniac that it's impossible for our movement to keep up with what's considered trendy without totally eroding the very foundation that ISKCON was built on. It's not like the "progressive" GBC members can't see it for themselves; they simply don't care and would rather attract a large following of impious debauchees than actually do what it takes to "boil the milk" as Srila Prabhupad instructed. Their desire for name and fame is so desperate that although Western ISKCON is already a sinking ship, they see it fit to let all kinds of rascals on board who will likely make more holes in the ship.
Yes, Western ISKCON will benefit from immigration and growth of India. Interesting because in 60s and 70s USA was strong and riding the baby boom, these became the hippies which became Hare Krishnas. Now situation reversed, India is high growth. Aindra Prabhu was right, kirtan is only way to bring new people in. But also need philosophy for it to have substance.
Better to have 1 sincere devotee,than a thousand sentimentalists, Maharaj is correct the beginning of the end if it is not kept in check.
Srila Prabhupada has said the end of the movement will not come from the outside, but from the inside. Lord Krishna is not stupid. You can't cheat Krishna. He will cheat you in return. From one of Srila Prabhupada's lectures. Honestly, I feel sick to my stomach that maya has covered the intelligence of those in charge. Srila Prabhupada please protect this movement. Lord Nrsinghadeva please protect this movement and keep it right where Srila Prabhupada left it. He said Do Not change the books or anything he has established. Demons are attacking the movement from the inside. They need to be rooted out, identified, and eliminated like Lord Krishna does in his pastimes. My dearest fellow devotees, don't take this lying down. Stand up and fight back until this is completely resolved. You owe it to Srila Prabhupada who gave his life for you and saved you from repeated birth, death, old age, and disease. Now it's time to reciprocate, and give your life for him.
Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya!
Please accept my humble obediences at the lotus feet of Maharaj and all of the sincere devotees of ISKCON. I love you all!
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
I'm 100% with you Prabhu
@@TheChulha Thank you, Chulha
You are most kind.
My spiritual name is Kuruksetra das
Please accept my humble obediences at your lotus feet. Support Maharaj in the best way you can. Everyone can serve Krishna in his own way. No matter what you do, all acts of bhakti to Lord Sri Krishna are all the same. Not one is better than the other.
Спасибо ученикам махараджа за грамотную дискуссию, очень грустно смотреть на махараджа , когда он едва сдерживает слёзы , чтобы не заплакать , когда говорит об этих ужасающих отклонениях от ведической сидханты.
🙏
You say it as it is.
Especially when they head count and say it has to be 50% representation.
As a woman, I don't want affirmative action in my religion.
Women throw up their hands when it suits them, pleading for leniency.
Men have a different stamina.
How sad that our religious institutions are under attack.
It's not just ISKCON.
The Orthodox Christians have a battle on their hands too.
Your videos are always clear and to the point.
As a new devotee, I appreciate how you cut to the core of the topic.
May you be blessed in your quest to say it as it is.
🙏 🌼
Totally Logical, i never miss any your videos, Hare Krishna, Jay Jagannath, MAHARAJ ❤🙏
Hare Krishna guru maharaj dandvat pranam 🙏🙏🙏
Indeed, the orthodoxy of Scripture is being challenged.
Hare Krishna pranams to guru Maharaja
Hare Krishna 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
!! Jai Shri Krishna !!
Shree Radhe Radhe 🙏🌹🙏
I can well imagine contemporary godbrothers of Bhaktisiddhant Saraswati Swamiji Maharaj and Bhaktivedant Swamiji Maharaj having meltdowns like this over non indians/mlecchas being given not only deeksha but janeus and Harinama Initiation rights; I can well imagine them predicting that "Oh theyve started giving it to mleccha men, next step would be women." The thought itself makes me giggle.
This is not the beginning; The beginning was when Prabhupad Ji landed in the west. Or was it when Bhaktisiddhant Saraswati Swamiji Maharaj instructed Prabhupad Ji to preach in the west? Or was it when Chaitanya Mahaprabhu made Rai Ramanand, a shudra, speak the siddhant of his sampradaya in the setting of an instructor/teacher? Or was it when Ramanuja set up a parallel scripture(Divya Prabandhas) to Vedas to be recited by everyone regardless of caste or gender in temples, set in the local language? Or was it when Lakshaman and Ram ate Shabri's tasted fruits?
Perhaps there is no beginning, itd seem; It is a part of a long evolutionary process in which Harinaam and Haribhakti is slowly but surely dissolving into itself all the chains of social structures and customs that keep the otherwise very gentle human heart from being humane to fellow humans.
Regardless of all this, I cannot help but hope and pray that may Maharaj continue his Vishnu sahastranaam lecture series and keep it going for other sahastranaamams/stotrams as well for years and years to come!
The mere fact that you consider “women should be represented equally” while Nature and Psychology (iow, Science) don’t support this, is contradictory. Not against Women rights on equality. But “equality” should be on rights, not gender. Gender is not made equal. That is why having a correct understanding of Shastras is very very important. Shastras and spiritual development is not a regular worldly agenda that also qualifies for Women equality issues.
Hariiiiboool!
Dandavats Pranam Maharaj how can we edit something which has been said by God himself ,God never go wrong rather one has to change the way one is thinking,we have to understand in what context , situation , condition Lord said that ,Srila Prabhupada already translated perfection ,I don't think any edit needed.
Maharaja is being sarcastic...he is not recommending to edit the books but he is warning that they will edit the books to suit their implementation..
Hare krishna 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Hare Krishna 🙏🙏🙏
Many are in favour even some on GBC board . It will happen, it can be good in some respects. Thats why we have GBC a fair process that can come to fruition
Joi swamìji ki joy Hare krishna Hare krishna
Hare Krsna
The fact is that ISKCON is so big now that I think it can absorb political correct woke culture. As long a good percentage of devotees ignore that nonsense and stick to Prabhupada's teachings then let the window dressing do it's neophyte thing. It may do more good than harm by bringing in new groups of people to get Self Realized and Krishna conscious.
It sounds a reasonable idea, but I think that whole countries are getting ruined by woke culture simply because it is harmful to human society.
Certainly the message of Vaishnavism should be tuned into how society is acting - both Bhaktissidhanta Saraswati and Srila Prabhupada did this, but without diluting its message. That's the main thing.
But that takes great skill - something the current iskcon leadership lacks.
So without really knowing how the woke culture is poisonous, and/or being afraid to speak out against it, the harm will be done, in my opinion.
Woke is cancerous, it ruins whatever it touches, it will chase away decent people and bring the worst in. Woke is 100% antithetical to religion, it is also authoritarian + bossy, keep it far away please
Harekrishna
Maharaj is so RIGHT!
🌷🥀हरे कृष्ण जय श्री राधे मां 🌷🥀
Hare Krishna
Ji guru dev
PAMHO. AGTSP. I hope you are well and in good health dear Maharaj. Tradition is everything. There is a reason for it. A spiritual reason. Old traditions are aligned with dharma, generally. That's why, in Kali-Yuga, the demons and sinful leaders are destroying traditions everywhere. Because it brings in adharma and sinfulness. I agree with your conservative stance Maharaj. And many many devotees will too. Many females in ISKCON are already shiksha gurus and are very respected. Our natural reverence for mother, sister and wife is the highest respect people can offer to another human. So, women aren't "losing out" in any way by not being Diksha Gurus. Women are properly respected in ISKCON I would say, especially nowadays. Our own mothers are our gurus.
Mothers are universally revered. All men bow to their mothers and love them, like no other human. But all spiritual and religious traditions have men as their leaders. It's just God, or Krishna's system. It should not be changed. Women should generally not be in positions of authority over men. According to Dharma this is not their position. Just like it is not a child's position to be "over", or think they are superior to any adult. It is NOT their position, not their dharma. Even conservative Christians, like Baptists, Muslims, Buddhists etc, follow this, because they know it's "God's plan". So they don't have any lady pastors or church leaders or Imams or Chief Rabbis or women, Buddhist leaders. And quite honestly, I observe that most decent women innately feel they should offer a natural respect to men as their leaders. My own "karmi" sister does. My own "karmi" mother does.
It is heartening to know that all ISKCON leaders do not blindly follow GBC rulings. We need decentralization to protect the movement from across-the-board large-mistakes being made. When I see leaders like yourself, I am not so worried. But we do need to guard against homosexuality and the utter abomination and adharmic, mental-illness of transgenderism becoming mainstream and accepted. All kinds of sinful people can serve Krishna of course, but their sinful and delusional misconceptions can never be promoted and accepted as a standard of HOW to live.
Thank you for your wonderful service and staunch attitude Maharaj. It is SO wonderful that so many people, including so many young devotees, are becoming your followers. It's ecstatic to see you having so many followers and so much influence worldwide now. It gives conservative dharma the needed "power-in-numbers" to affect change and not be harassed by forces of destructive, adharmic change.
Many people are observing that there is actually a worldwide movement of a conservative, counter-culture, even in so-called "Karmi" society, even now in the West. It's all Krishna's arrangement for the ushering in of the 10,000 years of the Golden Age, I feel.
Until devotees research and understand the philosophical roots of woke culture they will continue to lose while battling the superficial facade of gender, sex, and race.
Someone has already written that this is the beginning of the end, I agree.
Who pr ?
*Women In Chief Executive Post*
As we learn from the history of the Mahābhārata, or "Greater India," the wives and daughters of the ruling class, the kṣatriyas, knew the political game,* but we never find that a woman was given the post of chief executive. *This is in accordance with the injunctions of Manu-saṁhitā, but unfortunately Manu-saṁhitā is now being insulted, and the Āryans, the members of Vedic society, cannot do anything. Such is the nature of Kali-yuga.Sbhag 10.4.5 purport
Comment
Now they ( Iskcon ) are appointing Women Gurus just see this transgression.
The day which proved that within ISKCON, political correctness is more important than Srila Prabhupada's books. A bigger mistake than the zonal acharya system. Rtviks will be having a field day with this news.
Looks like the beginning of the end.
You stated like James bond but you were true and expressed beautifully rather precisely... I am not getting very clearly whether Sri Maharaj is really for or against...
@@LojiNeed His Holiness was being sarcastic. No one who has carefully read Srila Prabhupada's and studied sastras deeply would support the Female Diksha Guru heresy.
@p007 And why are you so naive? Tell me, what has been attained by creation of this video except of enduring many growing pains?
If someone reads Prabhupada's books- WHERE is the question of a need for sarcasm? What happend all of a sudden to his direct preaching? The anwser is: he cant due to no allowance. And he thinks fdg approval is not punishable. He has no stance except for being extremely lost.
@@p007t And one further note: the fact that FDG is bogus along with its adherents: BVKS will not have a problem to mix with those endorsing it. Still he will come to these GBC meetings and offer his obeiscanses to the very people he is preaching againts. Hypocrisy joined at the hip - a controlled opposition.
@@ompurnam How you can dare to speak against somebody who gave you initiation and save you from hell? You are the most unfortunate unintelligent rascal
Srila Prabhupada said men and women have the right to serve in any capacity. He did not refer to gays and transgenders. Of them he just said they have an extra problem with lust.
🙏🙏🙏🙏
Hare Krishna we already had gay gurus in the past.
Pls don't comment unnecessary and false. It's an offense. It's a open decorum.
@@gobinathanand5159 how is it false? You are using the pretence of material morality to shut me off? I agree with what maharaja said but is also true that unknowingly it happened in the past
...and how is It possível that guru is a sexopath? And anyone who cares about what role he plays in eventual sexual acts is not even qualified to be a spiritual master...
@@gobinathanand5159 I don't think that is really an offense. It is true, and funny because at the time, a revelation that the guru was gay would have been an outrage! (Though not to forget the hurt that caused)
They could be gay and not act on it.
It also follows that once progressivism begins, the founding texts will also be thrown out, as they do not agree with progressive thought. Just look at Christianity. They have embraced a free-love hippy Jesus and abandoned the Bible.
They will have to be edited to do so .
Yes Maharaj is right that it is just the beginning. In the couple of following year there will be so many deviations.
There will be men dressed and thinking themselves as women to be female Dikshas.
Are we more interested in modern society or what the Founder Aacharya Srila Prabhupads instructions are. If we deny Founder Aacharyas instructions, we might as well say big farewell to our spiritual upliftment.
Have we women some complexes....or ????
Srila Prabhupad Maharaj kee jay and his UNEDITED ORIGINAL BOOKS KEE JAY.
🙏🙏🙏
And the very RULES OF SRILA PRABHUPADA ARE BROKEN.. iskcon os not what SRILA PRABHUPADA had made
🙏🚩🙏
🕉️🌹
His Holy Grace, Srila Bhakti Vedanta Swami Prabhupada:
" Now, in the Manu-samhita it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children."
(-Srila Prabhupada, Bhagavad-Gita As It Is, Chapter 16, verse 7)
Women as a class are no better than boys, and therefore they have no discriminatory power like that of a man.
(-Srila Prabhupada, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Book 1, Chapter 7, verse 42)
Is it not perfectly deep hypocrisy for a woman Sannyassi to preach Krsna consciousness in Kali Yuga?
Shame on us. Its so sad.
Like what he is saying or what is going to happen is sad or what didn't happened earlier that is sad ?
ISKCON leading towards West Wokeism
For their growth lol ironic
Kalyug Took over bhakts vaishnavas and Iskcon lol ironically making west good the bad affected Such institutions lol
Iskcon kali is taking its ground in vaishnava society
For west and new made things wokeism western logic and society the main
Dharma Shouldn't change
Iskcon's fall started when they replaced authorized Ritvik representatives with unauthorized Diksha Gurus.
interesting but until yesterday a whole lot of white men were also not going around preaching Hindu Dharma also people from old Middle eastern semitic faiths.
This will be a black spot for GBC in the history to come. Neglecting scriptures is very dangerous.
Women Guru's should be banned in India for travel like they have done with Lokanath Maharaj in North America.
I hope I can be like Srimati Jahnava Devi Dasi guruma 🙏
She is Sri Tattva - Laksmhi Devi herself. Better to aspire to be her humble servant.
White American gbc have gone mad
ban them
Everyone women should watch this🙏
PAMHO,AGTSP..If you don't want ladies to become gurus , stop initiating them at first place.. 🙏
śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi
pañcarātra-vidhiṁ vinā
aikāntikī harer bhaktir
utpātayaiva kalpate
Exclusive devotion to Lord Hari which ignores the regulative principles outlined in the Sruti, Smriti, Puranas and Pancharatra scriptures will simply cause a disturbance. (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.101)
As it is clear from this verse that we should follow the principles of devotional service according to the authorised vedic literatures like Narada Panchratra , according to which women are not allowed to be diksha gurus until they are sidha and residents of Goloka Vrindavan.
Bhaktivinode Thakur's comment: The easiest path of spiritual realization to follow is the one shown by the previous Mahajans. A newly imagined process is a disturbance and leads to spiritual destruction. A person who never makes any effort to get rid of the anarthas will attain nothing but misfortune, and not the mercy of the Holy Name.
Without the mercy of the Holy Name, one may make countless efforts, but the anarthas will never loosen their grip on him. On the other hand, if one sincerely takes shelter of the Holy Name, crying at the Name’s lotus feet, then the anarthas will quickly disappear. Give up all the anarthas and engage in hearing and chanting. Take shelter of the Holy Name with single-minded devotion.
In the comments Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's it is clear that to get rid of the anarthas one must take shelter of the Holy name and by initiation we officially take shelter of the Holy Name.
In Bhardvaj Samhita it is said
न जातु मन्त्रदा नारी न शूद्रो नान्तरोद्भवः । नाभिशस्तो न पतितः कामकामोऽप्यकामिनः ॥४२॥
Here the word mantra-da is used, a women who gives mantra is called mantra- da
If the women is not initiated then she has not received any mantra,then there is no question of giving mantra to others. This verse shows that women can receive matra but they can't be mantra- da .
न जातिभेदं न कुलं न लिंगं न गुणक्रियाः । न देशकालौ नावस्थां योगो ह्ययमपेक्षते १४ ॥
There is no consideration of birth ,family, gender or quality, work etc nor there is consideration of time,place and circumstance in accepting this panchratrika vidhi .
Thus Bhardvaj Samhita is not prohibiting initiation of women but is prohibiting initiated Vaishanavis from becoming diksha gurus
This is also supported by the history of great vaishnav ladies like Devhuti, Kunti Yashoda who never took the position of diksha gurus even though they are nitya-sidhas. We should follow in the footsteps of great devotees.
If we trangress the orders of guru- sadhu-sastra, then we will not achieve krsna - prema. That is the unavoidable consequence of defying shabda- pramaan
Through our own experience and limited power of reasoning alone, we will not be able to clearly understand how any given idea or act will affect ISKCON.
But we should have full faith that by sticking to the instructions of guru-sadhu-sastra,the eventual outcome will be auspicious.
In Srimad Bhagvatam 4 .12.32 purport Srila Prabhupad says
Dhruva Mahārāja’s mother, Sunīti, was his patha-pradarśaka-guru. Patha-pradarśaka-guru means “the guru, or the spiritual master, who shows the way.” Such a guru is sometimes called śikṣā-guru.
It is the duty of the śikṣā-guru or dīkṣā-guru to instruct the disciple in the right way, and it depends on the disciple to execute the process. According to śāstric injunctions, there is no difference between śikṣā-guru and dīkṣā-guru, and generally the śikṣā-guru later on becomes the dīkṣā-guru. Sunīti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not become Dhruva Mahārāja’s dīkṣā-guru. Still, he was not less obliged to Sunīti.
My humble request to you is please read the scriptures deeply before making allegations against a pure devotee of the LORD .
@@kanavkansal5818 that is interesting Prabhu..and thank you for shastra,quotes. 🙏I do respect Bhakti Vikas Maharaja. But many thing don't make sense. If disciple become guru or can become guru.. than ladies disciples can become gurus.. or,otherwise, they should not accept spiritual master. And it is said than woman should be under protection in all stages of life.. father, husband and in old age should be protected by elder sons. It is not mentioned protection by spiritual master.
And we know that Lord Chaitany didn't initiate women and was keeping them away at distance. He even didn't initiate man formaly. But He was giving them instructions.
Lord Gauranga didn't perform diksa ceremonies to not confuse devotees. That is stated by Bhaktisidhanta Maharaja in Chaitany Bhagavata. 🙏
To become diksha guru, getting initiated into the mantras is not the only qualification. It is necessary condition,not a sufficient one. In Vedic culture, all the three varnas -brahmanas, kṣatriyas, and vaisyas-received mantras at the time of initiation. But only brāhmaṇas were allowed to give mantras and be dikṣā-gurus. Similarly, when pañcaratrikavidhi allows women to receive mantras in initiation, they do not automatically become eligible also to give mantras and be dikṣā-guru.
Moreover, Narada Pañcaratra states that women should not become dikṣā-guru. Bharadvaja-samhita (Narada Pañcaratra) clearly states that women are eligible to receive initiation (1.14-15) but are not eligible to give initiation and be dīkṣāguru (1.42-43). This also matches with Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 4.12.32, purport, wherein Srila Prabhupada says, "Suniti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not become Dhruva Mahārāja's dīkṣā-guru."
Those who believe that because the pañcaratras allow women to get initiated they can also give mantras and be dikṣā-gurus base their argument on the set of verses from Hari-bhaktiviläsa (1.194-198).However, it is to be noted that these verses clearly mention that the allowance given to women is for receiving initiation and thus chanting mantras and worshipping the Deities of the Lord. It nowhere mentions that women are allowed to give mantras and become dikṣā-guru.
@@stepkoki Hare Krishna 🙏
Thanks for the reply
The shastras say that females xan be given diksha but they can't give diksha until they are at sidha stage .So abiding by the verdict of the shastra they don't initiate.
A woman can't receive a sacred thread so how can she give it to her disciple.
Protection for women is regarding their body and other day to day necessities.Guru is not supposed to give protection to his female disciples...he only gives them instructions to advance in their spiritual life and might give some advice for their material problems but not protection.
Your next point that Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu didn't initiate women but Śrila Prabhupad did initiate women in panchratrika vidhi .....so do u disagree with Prabhupad ...then your question only is wrong because then u should object why Prabhupad initiated women when lord himself didn't. But Srila Prabhupad is personal associate of the Lord in the spiritual world. We must follow what he is saying.
To have in depth shastra pramaan in regards to female diksha gurus I would recommend you to read a book on Vaishnava Diksha by Damodara prabhu and Krishna Kriti prabhuji (u will get your answers based on sastra) and an article by HG Phalini Devi mataji on Dandvats website (5 Dec.2012)......she is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada
So, you are saying female accepted diksha in vedic history. We have 12 mahajanas, all males.. and they all have their spiritial masters ,like Narada was spiritual master of Prahlada Maharaja and so on.. .so please kindly say who were spiritual masters from respectfull woman like Draupadi, Kunti, Devahuti, mother Saci..?
Also, your argument - “otherwise we can’t be in line with contemporary modern society”. Wait. SP's mission is not to be ”in line” with contemporary society. It’s the other way round. I hope there is hope for disciples now!
Truth constitutes authority, without truth there is no authority,(Srila Prabhupada).
Gender shouldn't be an issue. But sexual preference is an issue because of the 4 regulative principles.
Why sexual preference? Illicit sex is illicit sex regardless of the players, no?
Gender should not be an issue? Who are you to give an expert comment on this topic? What is your authority. Our authority is sastras. Narada Pancaratra 1.41 says na jatu mantrada nari...
A woman cannot give mantras
Completely agree
When the nose of teh camel is in the tent the rest of teh camel will soon follow.
In churches (christanity) , i usually dont see any female bishops... So, according to that, even the churches are so regressive...
And in islam, all clerics are male... That is even more regressive...
But Sanatana Dharma/hinduism is more liberal. That's why there are so many goddesses and there are female gurus.
And in hinduism, there are transgender gods/godesses too. In India, transgenders have existed for centuries and they are respected and praised in hindu communities.
Next pn the agenda put Jesus on the altar.
Srila prabhupada was against this
Swamiji is so sad here:(, this is not good
I really appreciate this inclusion of female Diksha gurus. Isckon being the only one vaishnavite society which accepts new members. Others vaishnavism societies are closed for practice
PAHMO..Vishal Das
Political correctness.
The reason why this is a crap argument is because female equality and reverence for the mother godess has always been a thing in India...but transgender/gay has not...because of pati Patna system.
Female diksha gurus aren't a 'thing' in India either though.
Reverence of mother goddess? ...in India? ...pati Patna system???
I'm unable to synthesis your incoherent twattling...
I'm not sure what you refuted by your comment? Though I'm pretty sure it was a strawman fallacy.
- The whole video was about how movement in 'west; was being compromised, but you started giving example of India?
- Also, you forgot the take the other part of argument that:
- - gradually this whole so-called equality thing will seep through the whole Institutional body, until it makes it yet another "-ism" without anything to offer except acquiescing to deluded people demands.
- Even if Indians, revere mother goddess. What in the world, it has got to do with a female bodied devotee giving initiation to another devotee?
- If Indians revere bogus avatars, Sai baba, all gods are one, we are god, etc... should it also mean ISKCON should allow them to initiate?
Next time try to add something to the conversation rather ostentatiously post it on public forum, and feel that people need to take your "thoughtful" opinions into consideration.
I think if you talk about "always been a thing in India" you should also consider the very fact that there was never a system of Female Diksha Guru in Indian orthodox societies including Vaishnavism
Why do you even want to alter any traditional practice of India, this kind of over smartness will only create more complications and chaos...i don't know where it will stop
Transgenders (ardhanarishwar) have existed in india for centuries. And they are respected and praised in hindu communities...
Bakthi yoga alone will not lead to moksha - Krishna 🌸
So in the end,the extra qualification for becoming diksha guru would be to be gay or transgender or someone from any marginalised group in order to be recognised as a so called progressive society.
Its Just The Beginning...more Coming!! Srila Maharaj is Real Sadhu - trikaldarshi, one who can see past , present and future... All glories to Maharaj!!
By nature no doubt women are more religious and good vaisnavis but also Women by nature we are taught has to be protected - by parents, by husband and by elderly sons......
so practically it doesn't seems will work to give vaisnavis Top Positions and that too Initiating Guru....they need protection Themselves so what they will protect their so called disciples...
In India so called Hindu societies there are female gurus but ISKCON is not a so called Hindu society....
This GBC guru system is so ridiculous !
How can someone follow your teachings if you cannot understand the basic teachings of the Gita: We’re not the body!!! Women should be allowed to be gurus! People like you make me lose the faith!
Yes there are many women Gurus in scripture. Queen Kunti; Mirabai; and so many others. So I am glad
That they can be recognized now.
Yes, I think BVS did omit the main argument, namely qualification of devotee. So 'why not women?' is the logical train of thought after.
I would say, does it really seem natural in a Vaishnava setting? Men and women do have different qualities. Now contemporary society does show that women can do more than previously thought, it is true and Srila Prabhupada himself caused a big stir in India when he adjusted the situation in his ISKCON society, ie giving women positions of big responsibility, Brahman initiation, etc...
However, Prabhupada himself did say that women though qualified would not put themselves into the big administrative posts. Why? Probably due to qualities and functioning of society Example? That of Queen Kunti, who though immensely qualified, remained under the protection of her 5 sons. In those days, women were revered to a degree than we can barely understand nowadays. So words like 'protection' were really meant and not just excuses for male aggrandisement.
Back to BVS, and although, imo, he omitted the main argument, his point of where does it end is extremely valid. Firstly it is equal rights for women, and then gays, and at the moment in society it is transgender (at the expense of women - see men identifying as women in sports, etc). I am one of the people who believe that this is all done to a sinister design and that the goal after transgender is 'no gender'. Notice the confusing among the young in schools and drag queens, etc for example - there is much more...
If ISKCON is to be useful to today's contemporary society, it must understand what is going on secularly (like Prabhupada did when he was physically present) and only then can it advance spiritually as a whole, otherwise it will continually be knocked back. That is what I think anyway.
You have no faith to begin with. If you're not the body then why do you eat?
SB 1.4.5:
While Śrī Vyāsadeva was following his son, beautiful young damsels who were bathing naked covered their bodies with cloth, although Śrī Vyāsadeva himself was not naked. But they had not done so when his son had passed. The sage inquired about this, and the young ladies replied that his son was purified and when looking at them made no distinction between male and female. But the sage made such distinctions.
* * *
Dear Mataji,
Even Śrī Vyāsadeva made distinctions between men and women. In modern society no one is on the level of Vyāsadeva or any other saint, so it's an absurd just to say 'we are not the body' and do anything we like. You know this theoretically, and this helps you to develop spiritually, but there will be a long long way before you understand this practically.
Even if some great woman really knows that she's not the body, she wants to behave properly according to dharma. Can we go naked to some ISKCON public program just because WE ARE NOT THE BODY? So let's dance without the dress and chant Hare Krishna. Excellent philosophy and great future for ISKCON.
Hare Krishna!
This is a very controversial topic and discussions have been going on from both ends for quite a long time, so don't jump on to any conclusions or judgement against anyone , specially against an exalted pure devotee of the Lord,it's offensive .
You have rightly said that the first teaching of Bhagvad Gita is that we are not this body but eternal spirit souls. But still male and female have different psycho physical nature. You can't sleep with any male body just because you are a spirit soul. You can't move freely at the dead of night claiming that you are a spirit soul so have equal rights.
The same Bhagavad-gītā which you mentioned also says
"cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ
guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ"
"According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me."
So why was the society divided by the Lord when all are spirit souls. Because on spiritual platform, we are all equal but on material platform we are not.
According to the body we have earned by our karma in past lives,we are given prescribed duties.That is the expert arrangement of Lord Krishna.
There are prescribed duties for four varnas and ashramas and duties for women are different from them. The varna of a female is decided by the varna of the husband and she has to faithfully serve and follow him.
We should keep shastra pramaan as the centre and all shastras decry that the only duty of those in female body is to serve their husband faithfully and to be chaste.
The purpose of this human life is to please the Lord and He is pleased when we serve according to His instructions.
In Bhagavad-gītā ch 3 verse 9 the Lord says
"Work done as a sacrifice for Viṣṇu has to be performed; otherwise work causes bondage in this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain free from bondage."
Further in ch 18 verse 47 He says
It is better to engage in one’s own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another’s occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one’s nature are never affected by sinful reactions.
A diksha Guru has to be powerful and independent. Women are empowered by Krishna when they are devoted and obedient to their male protectors.
Even nitya siddha women like Kunti,Devahuti, Rukmini,Yashoda did not become diksha gurus,although they were far more advanced than we are.
In Srimad Bhagvatam 4.12.32 purport Srila Prabhupad writes
"According to śāstric injunctions, there is no difference between śikṣā-guru and dīkṣā-guru, and generally the śikṣā-guru later on becomes the dīkṣā-guru. Sunīti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not become Dhruva Mahārāja’s dīkṣā-guru."
There is much more to be said on this topic,for more clarification you can read books like
Women - masters or mothers
Glimpses of traditional Indian life
Vaishnava Diksha according to Narad pancaratra.