I used this story with my son - 8 or 9 at the time. After the duckling has experienced all this rejection and around the time he leaves the old lady and heads for the lake I asked him "how do you think the duckling felt?" "He felt like me!" he said... This was somewhat unexpected, but things had been going badly at school with some of his friendahip group, so it was not incomprehensible... We had an amazing transformative conversation, about peer pressure, rejections, what people sometimes falsely judge to be of value... About children and being young and the limits of understanding.... How we are all learning and growing towards what is true in ourselves. And that even if lots of people say something is true - it doesn't mean it's true! And how that beautiful swan couldn't be stopped. He was there all along, just growing into himself.... The emergence of a new vibrant generation of young and strong handsome beings is inevitable.... It wills itself into being. I love the way that it emerges for the ugly duckling when he finally in spite of all messages he has recieved, finds himself drawn "even if they should kill me" towards the swans, which are his true nature.... I spoke about this with my son.... When we follow our true nature, we look in the mirror and see our own beauty, we cannot help it. It was a very natural frame for me to express that I could see the swan in him, and one day he would see it himself. We also spoke about this in terms of "the darkness before the dawn" that the swan experiences. It was an immensely powerful episode in our lives together.... One I feel I should revisit... It made me want to take fairy tales to the world, to parents in my community to help them to see how these can be used to facilitate transformation in young people.
I’m an adoptee so I can relate deeply to this transformative tale. It was my favorite children’s story when I was young, growing up in a violent and very scary home with my adopted parents. Thank you for sharing this beautiful tale and diving into its multi -layered meaning and relevance to one’s own psyche. 🙏
This one brought me to tears, as I related to the story so deeply. If it means anything to you, I'm an INFJ and left with those mean goslings with no parental teaching or appreciation. Like many of us ugly ducklings. only when I got a PhD all by my lonesome self did either parent start to respect me, and only because my step dad pointed out to them I was OK. Still, it's not really the same. My husband however is the other swan who took me in his arms and accepted me fully. Thougn I"m still the ugly duckling to the geese, I'm a swan to the INFJ community (for lack of a better term). THANK YOU for such a great podcast.
About touch and love as adolescents or adults healing the ugly duckling... Yes... But it can also become an addiction, needing this approval, this praise, because we have not developped it before.
I can’t help wondering what would have become of the ugly duckling had he stayed ugly. The story seems to say everything will work out if you transform into a beauty tough luck of you don’t.
Thank you for mentioning this!!! I relate this story 100% but can’t make the leap of how or where I will be accepted? Who do I need to become? How do I do that? What the gosling needed was already inside of him and all he needed was time…but as someone who was very very emotionally neglected, that window of time where I needed that description of self, that attachment, that mirroring, is closed and the empty space grows more and more pronounced every year that passes. I’m not going to suddenly develop it inherently. I’m struggling to apply the story to the examples of what happens when the psyche of an infant/child is neglected in such a way….
@@sarahbee6881 Thank you for both your comments, I can relate to this a bit more than I would like... For this reason I always found the Ugly Duckling to be actually quite depressing, because it paints a picture of this cathartic transformative moment, but after decades of working and waiting for it, it becomes a bit of a poisonous notion.
My guess is that there is no such thing as ugly. That this story is more about your perspective. That the ugly duckling was always a beautiful swan. He just had to find those who recognised who he really was.
Want to also give a massive recommendation for Dreamschool, which is produced the TJL trio. Being a member for a few years now being able to sit in with Joe and Lisa on theor talks, participate and engage with the workshop style content and the course content has massively helped me to engage with all kinds of symbolic content - dreams, tales and legends, my growing son's fantasies and dreams, it's connected me to others as well thru the dream group we were able to form via the course and also people out in life randomly, who often unconsciously put content right up on the table and are often fascinated the Jungian and symbolic referencing. It's deepened my experience of being, and, for me personally, actually added a much welcomed layer of depth to how I work with people in the general wellness community. I'm constantly impressed by the integrity and value of the Dreamschool experience.
I'm working on remembering that I even WANT to connect . . . ." as Joseph articulated. . . . One example of the kind of teaching that shines through these discussions making them invaluable as tools for optimizing psychotherapy! How can I thank you? I know the ways!
You can also make yourself be in the wrong nest. If the nest is not right, and you object to the environment of it, people possibly look for something negative about you. As no one is perfect they will find something, and this can be pretty pressing if you have the strength of character not to bow. You don't get the warmth to cope with your problems, and the perceived flaw can become an obsession. I am talking from my own experience. Pity that Lisa Marciano was not present. You three together deserve a golden medal for communication skills.
Recently I was an attendee at a seminar sponsored by Denver Psychoanalytic Society. The presentation was "Psychoanalytic Treatment of Addiction: A Neurobiological Approach" taught by Michael Levin, M.D. More than one of the psychoanalysts in the audience spoke of observing their analysands' inability to experience what some call "Witnessing Consciousness" or nondual awareness as Buddhist and other Eastern approaches point towards. I was surprised to hear this since I've lived with this awareness since early childhood. I wonder about how childhood trauma interacts with individual sensitivities to shape the process of healing early wounds. You offer one remedy I'm considering: inviting a cat into my home, knowing one of us will die before the other.
4:17 I sincerely hope you will reconsider the music (muzak) below the retelling of the fairy tale. For us auditory learners (1/3 of the population) as well as those with hearing issues, it is very distracting, and doesn't really add anything in terms of production value? It is just more noise (pollution) - of which there is already so much. I turn to you for serious conversation, not for café talk. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it drives me crazy that more and more content creators - apparently spurred on by youtube 'academy' - layer music underneath their voice(s). Other than that, I much appreciate your podcasts, and hardly ever miss an episode.
Totally agree. Deb has such a soothing voice and I couldn't listen to the fairy tale. Also anytime I listen to this podcast, I need to constantly adjust the volume, depending on who is talking, Lisa is too loud, Deb is just right, and Joseph is too quiet.
Yes totally. It’s unlistenable. I’m going to have that short Muzak clip looping in my head, I couldn’t make it through. Would love a re upload without that background music. It’s one of the rare times this great podcast has been a mistake like this.
I'm not sure what the belief system is on this channel but there's a lady who broke down this story, but from the perspective of a person having the #11 life path as the guy that wrote the book was a LP #11 and the book is supposedly about his childhood.
I used this story with my son - 8 or 9 at the time. After the duckling has experienced all this rejection and around the time he leaves the old lady and heads for the lake I asked him "how do you think the duckling felt?"
"He felt like me!" he said... This was somewhat unexpected, but things had been going badly at school with some of his friendahip group, so it was not incomprehensible...
We had an amazing transformative conversation, about peer pressure, rejections, what people sometimes falsely judge to be of value... About children and being young and the limits of understanding.... How we are all learning and growing towards what is true in ourselves. And that even if lots of people say something is true - it doesn't mean it's true!
And how that beautiful swan couldn't be stopped. He was there all along, just growing into himself.... The emergence of a new vibrant generation of young and strong handsome beings is inevitable.... It wills itself into being.
I love the way that it emerges for the ugly duckling when he finally in spite of all messages he has recieved, finds himself drawn "even if they should kill me" towards the swans, which are his true nature.... I spoke about this with my son.... When we follow our true nature, we look in the mirror and see our own beauty, we cannot help it.
It was a very natural frame for me to express that I could see the swan in him, and one day he would see it himself.
We also spoke about this in terms of "the darkness before the dawn" that the swan experiences.
It was an immensely powerful episode in our lives together.... One I feel I should revisit... It made me want to take fairy tales to the world, to parents in my community to help them to see how these can be used to facilitate transformation in young people.
Thank you for sharing so deeply and beautifully. ~Joseph
“When we follow our true nature, we look in the mirror and see our own beauty, we cannot help it” 💖 beautiful, thank you
I’m an adoptee so I can relate deeply to this transformative tale. It was my favorite children’s story when I was young, growing up in a violent and very scary home with my adopted parents. Thank you for sharing this beautiful tale and diving into its multi -layered meaning and relevance to one’s own psyche. 🙏
Truth be told so
valued reminding me as all of us who suffered absndment, on all sides🙏✨🎵🎉💝💝👌
This one brought me to tears, as I related to the story so deeply. If it means anything to you, I'm an INFJ and left with those mean goslings with no parental teaching or appreciation. Like many of us ugly ducklings. only when I got a PhD all by my lonesome self did either parent start to respect me, and only because my step dad pointed out to them I was OK. Still, it's not really the same. My husband however is the other swan who took me in his arms and accepted me fully. Thougn I"m still the ugly duckling to the geese, I'm a swan to the INFJ community (for lack of a better term). THANK YOU for such a great podcast.
Thank you for this episode
About touch and love as adolescents or adults healing the ugly duckling... Yes... But it can also become an addiction, needing this approval, this praise, because we have not developped it before.
I can’t help wondering what would have become of the ugly duckling had he stayed ugly. The story seems to say everything will work out if you transform into a beauty tough luck of you don’t.
Thank you for mentioning this!!! I relate this story 100% but can’t make the leap of how or where I will be accepted? Who do I need to become? How do I do that? What the gosling needed was already inside of him and all he needed was time…but as someone who was very very emotionally neglected, that window of time where I needed that description of self, that attachment, that mirroring, is closed and the empty space grows more and more pronounced every year that passes. I’m not going to suddenly develop it inherently.
I’m struggling to apply the story to the examples of what happens when the psyche of an infant/child is neglected in such a way….
@@sarahbee6881 Thank you for both your comments, I can relate to this a bit more than I would like... For this reason I always found the Ugly Duckling to be actually quite depressing, because it paints a picture of this cathartic transformative moment, but after decades of working and waiting for it, it becomes a bit of a poisonous notion.
My guess is that there is no such thing as ugly. That this story is more about your perspective. That the ugly duckling was always a beautiful swan. He just had to find those who recognised who he really was.
What an important topic!!! Thank you. This is the tale of my life.
Want to also give a massive recommendation for Dreamschool, which is produced the TJL trio.
Being a member for a few years now being able to sit in with Joe and Lisa on theor talks, participate and engage with the workshop style content and the course content has massively helped me to engage with all kinds of symbolic content - dreams, tales and legends, my growing son's fantasies and dreams, it's connected me to others as well thru the dream group we were able to form via the course and also people out in life randomly, who often unconsciously put content right up on the table and are often fascinated the Jungian and symbolic referencing.
It's deepened my experience of being, and, for me personally, actually added a much welcomed layer of depth to how I work with people in the general wellness community.
I'm constantly impressed by the integrity and value of the Dreamschool experience.
Thank you for your generous comments. ~ Joseph
Thank you so much! We are so glad you like Dream School! (Lisa here)
thank you so much for all this lovely work
I'm working on remembering that I even WANT to connect . . . ." as Joseph articulated. . . . One example of the kind of teaching that shines through these discussions making them invaluable as tools for optimizing psychotherapy! How can I thank you? I know the ways!
You can also make yourself be in the wrong nest. If the nest is not right, and you object to the environment of it, people possibly look for something negative about you. As no one is perfect they will find something, and this can be pretty pressing if you have the strength of character not to bow. You don't get the warmth to cope with your problems, and the perceived flaw can become an obsession. I am talking from my own experience.
Pity that Lisa Marciano was not present. You three together deserve a golden medal for communication skills.
We missed Lisa, but she often travels now to promote her book.
Recently I was an attendee at a seminar sponsored by Denver Psychoanalytic Society. The presentation was "Psychoanalytic Treatment of Addiction: A Neurobiological Approach" taught by Michael Levin, M.D. More than one of the psychoanalysts in the audience spoke of observing their analysands' inability to experience what some call "Witnessing Consciousness" or nondual awareness as Buddhist and other Eastern approaches point towards. I was surprised to hear this since I've lived with this awareness since early childhood. I wonder about how childhood trauma interacts with individual sensitivities to shape the process of healing early wounds. You offer one remedy I'm considering: inviting a cat into my home, knowing one of us will die before the other.
I’m so grateful to hear you tell this story and work with it here for us. Could you tell me if this is the original version please?
4:17 I sincerely hope you will reconsider the music (muzak) below the retelling of the fairy tale. For us auditory learners (1/3 of the population) as well as those with hearing issues, it is very distracting, and doesn't really add anything in terms of production value? It is just more noise (pollution) - of which there is already so much. I turn to you for serious conversation, not for café talk. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it drives me crazy that more and more content creators - apparently spurred on by youtube 'academy' - layer music underneath their voice(s). Other than that, I much appreciate your podcasts, and hardly ever miss an episode.
Thank you for surfacing this issue
You also might put a link to the fairy tale text in the members email
@@advandepol7537 Good idea: andersen.sdu.dk/vaerk/hersholt/TheUglyDuckling_e.html
Totally agree. Deb has such a soothing voice and I couldn't listen to the fairy tale. Also anytime I listen to this podcast, I need to constantly adjust the volume, depending on who is talking, Lisa is too loud, Deb is just right, and Joseph is too quiet.
Yes totally. It’s unlistenable. I’m going to have that short Muzak clip looping in my head, I couldn’t make it through. Would love a re upload without that background music. It’s one of the rare times this great podcast has been a mistake like this.
A very synchronistyc video for me, thanks a lot ❤
Peeerfect topic ❤😊
I'm not sure what the belief system is on this channel but there's a lady who broke down this story, but from the perspective of a person having the #11 life path as the guy that wrote the book was a LP #11 and the book is supposedly about his childhood.
❤ Beautiful
😢❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤