Scouse Phonology and Where it Came From
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- Honeybone 2007: www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfi...
The Preston letters: www.abdn.ac.uk/staffpages/upl...
One of the letters referenced in the video contains the line, "e must think as little a bough me as e can fo i ham quite innesent" ('he must think as little about me as he can, for I am quite innocent'). As well as evidencing non-rhoticity through the omission of the 'r' in 'for,' this also shows that 'h'-deletion was common for this speaker: they spell 'he' as 'e', and they spell 'am' as 'ham' (suggesting that they cannot tell the difference between words that begin with /h/ and words that begin with vowels). In both southern and northern h-dropping dialects, particularly in the 19th century when it was common to be semi-literate, people sometimes hypercorrectively added /h/ sounds in speech to words which began with vowels, so it is remotely possible that the speaker may have done this in speech (and therefore that these 'h's might represent pronounced /h/ sounds).
The word 'about' is spelled 'a bough.' The writer seems to have analysed this word as two words; an indefinite article ('a') and a word 'bout' (which they spell 'bough'). This spelling could be interpreted in a couple of ways; the /t/ could have been realised as a glottal stop, but I suspect that if that were the case, the writer would still have perceived a /t/ sound there and spelled it accordingly. It's also possible that /t/ was debuccalised to [h] word-finally, as in modern Scouse. I am not sure if this phenomenon occurs in modern Preston (I've never personally heard it), so that interpretation also seems a bit shaky.
At my Liverpool High School in the 60s, we had “ speech training” . Once a week this poor woman would come and try and get us to speak “ properly”. She did this by having us repeat certain rhymes . My favourite , which became a bit of a party piece, was “ Claire has fair hair. Mary’s hair is red. Mary wishes her hair ,was fair, like Claire’s, instead.” Of course it comes out as “ Clurr ‘ as fur hurr, Muries air is red. Mary wishes er er was fur, like Clurrs , instead.”. Bearing in mind there are two ways of pronouncing words like Mary... Ma.a..irrey and Muuury.
Was her name Ms Garner? Remember it well 😂
I hate people that think having different regional accents is not “speaking properly.” I think regional accents are a cool thing from my southeast accent (Kent) to Scouse to Geordie to West Country to Brummie to the London accent. They’re all interesting and should be preserved
I’m from North Liverpool and I say mare-ry, fare-y, and her for “hair”. Nerse and squerh lol yes. I have noticed a difference between North and South Liverpool.
I've not heard that rhyme before. It's really funny when reading it back. Especially the 'er er'.
Absolutely love the not-so-subtle discrimination in the rhyme :D What a coincidence for that to come from people who also think who consider dialects not "proper" speaking.
As many have pointed out, this video ignores possibly the biggest influence on scouse accent. Liverpool was often jokingly nicknamed the "capital city of North Wales" because so many Welsh moved to Liverpool, and so much Welsh could be heard in Liverpool until relatively recently. There are obvious influences from Welsh on pronounciation of certain letters.
Also the Irish. Liverpool is known as “the second capital of R Ireland”
@@joshg2603 Not Cork? They won't be happy... also you really don't need the 'R' there
@@saoirsedeltufo7436 just to save confusion. As I don’t like Northern Ireland and don’t want them thinking we do 😂 also nah not Cork. It needs to be a bigger city 😂
@@joshg2603 ahh shut up cork’s the true capital
@@comically_large_cowboy_hat3385 nah Liverpool and Dublin ked.
I’ve been over to Liverpool from Ireland a couple of times, eventhough I know I’m in an English city I have moments where I hear an unmistakable Dublin accent or pronunciation that stops me in my tracks. It’s like an auditory hallucination. I saw an interview with Pete Best and it kind of jumps out of you for a second when he says certain things before disappearing again. Generally it’s among the older people that you hear it. There’s a big Welsh influence too, surprised it isn’t discussed, but good vid👍
Lots of Irish people migrated to liverpool so it makes sense
At the end of this clip Lennon switches into a kind of antique Scouse accent that sounds very Irish, almost Dublin. You still hear this accent in Liverpool. It sounds like an English person trying to mimic an Irish person, except they actually sound like this when they talk. ruclips.net/video/4YkwSkF2b4M/видео.html
💯 I’ve noticed that myself 🙂 Many of us, myself included, say “fillim” instead of “film” which is apparently from the extra vowel in the Irish language. I’m one generation out of Scotty Road 😉 I noticed a slight Irish lilt in my grandparents generation.
@@mysticjen379 in Shakespeare time it was spelt philoem so that is the older pronunciation that has stuck in Liverpool, Ireland and parts of Scotland
@@mysticjen379yes the lilt has gone somewhat much more prevalent in older generations who were closer to the migration.
As a linguist, I absolutely love your videos. And, as a Geordie, I think you sound absolutely adorable pronouncing northern vowel sounds 😍
As a Scouser in exile I was brought up believing that Scouse is 1/3 Dublin Irish, 1/3 catarrh and 1/3 laziness (for example reducing most nouns to their first syllable followed by an 'ee' as in "I'm nippin' down the offie to get some ciggies." Like Glaswegian it always seems to sound slightly aggressive to non-natives but there is surely no denying the sheer poetry of a phrase like, "Tarra Tereesa, see yer Chewsdee."
Years ago I was researching 1880s Kirkdale primary school log, every other day there seemed to be a Welsh kid enrolling, frequently noted as only speaking Welsh.
Prepare to be chased out of Liverpool if you call it “the North West Midlands”...
I wouldn't call it NW Midlands but there is a historic precedent for it.
When the Petty Kingdom of Mercia was at its supremacy in the 600s, its territory stretched from the bristol channel, to cambridgeshire, to the river humber, and up to the river ribble - not the mersey.
In fact that portion of territory was known as "The Land Between the Ribble and Mersey", originally the southern stretch of the Kingdom of Rheged, (possibly known as Argoed, through quite disparate evidence).
For a long time then, Liverpool was considered part of the Midlands, though this would very much not be the case over time.
I have come across people from Merseyside, who do come across as Jasper Carrot (a Brummie). So the Mercia link is obviously still there in parts. Remember that the Mersey “Merc Sæ” is the “Mark Sea”, the old Water Border between Mercia (Todays Midlands) and Northumbria (Todays Northern England). You get your very name (Merseyside) from the “Mierse” (the Mercian’s) itself.
Nah. Scousers aren't unwelcoming or mean.
So many English dialects. As I know there are few dialects just in London alone.
@@neilog747 No they just like takin' the piss. Havin' a larf.
According to Wiki: in 1813, 10% of Liverpool's population was Welsh, leading to the city becoming known as "the capital of North Wales". A further 120,000 Welsh people migrated from Wales to Liverpool between 1851 and 1911. Wiki doesn't mention 1813 - 1851, but it was presumably a constant flow. It also continued after 1911. Strange it wasn't even mentioned in the video.
The link with Ireland is widely known, of course. The Irish Famine (1845-52) saw a vast flow of people through Liverpool and on to other parts of Britain and to the New World. Many stayed in Liverpool. Wiki: by 1851, more than 20% of the population of Liverpool was Irish.
Liverpool is also known as the second capital of Ireland
My old auntie often used the Welsh words ‘Frock’ (Dress) and ‘Pwys’ (Purple).
Massive Welsh influence in Liverpool certain areas were Welsh (pall Mall), when I was a kid there were quite a few welsh chapels ( mostly derelict) dotted around the Everton, Kirkdale and Anfield areas and even in my school most kids had Irish or Welsh surnames.
They should start teaching Welsh and Irish in Liverpool schools
I agree with you, it is strange that the Welsh element in Merseyside demographics wasn't mentioned. It is far more significant than the Scottish element which was referred to.
There seems to also be a fair bit of Welsh influence on Scouse, both words and sounds.
Yes, I was surprised that there was no mention of the North Wales influence.
A good point well made.
When I lived in Bangor I noticed that the North Welsh spoke English non-rhotically but (North) Welsh rhotically. For example, in "Diolch yn fawr." (Thank you very much) the final "r" was either a definite tap or even slightly rolled.
I think it goes the other way too, with Scouse influencing especially the north Welsh coastal towns.
I notice in north Wales along the cost the scouse accent seems to influence their local accents, in the way the London accent ripples out into the surrounding countryside
@@krisinsaigon Yes, once you get into Flintshire the locals almost sound like Scousers, to my ears at least.
Very interestin, La.
I'm from south Liverpool originally (Garston); I moved to Bristol 20 years ago so my accent has changed quite a bit. There is great variety within Scouse: if you go to north Liverpool (Fazakerley, for example) the accent has a harsher, guttural sound. Take the word 'black': My step dad, who is in his seventies, and from Dingle, noted that on the docks where he worked in the sixties, dockers from the north of Liverpool had a harsh 'blacckk' (like Welsh as someone has noted below). The speakers from south Liverpool conversely, pronounced 'black' with a rolling off of the consonants 'c' and 'k', almost breathing out, not harsh.
Thanks for taking the time to put this out on youtube....I'll forgive you for showing so much footage of John Bishop ;-)
Tony
I've often thought that Scouse has a similar 'bouncy' sound to northern Welsh, hinting at a cultural zone that pre-dates modern political boundaries. Touring N. Wales a decade ago we noticed a lot of the tea rooms were run by retired Scousers, possibly continuing the tradition!
This I've noticed too. Compare Welsh, Scouse and Canadian accents' sing-songy qualities
Absolutely, it's got some of the harsh unusual sounds from Welsh "LL" and some of the twang of Ulster, I don't think it has so much southern Irish as people think. Scots was also a massive influence, especially Glaswegian, but many Glaswegian immigrants had southern Irish backgrounds so it just goes to show.
No escaping us down here. I live in North Wales now, and Scousers everywhere 😆
There's an Anglesey in Wales and a Wallasey in England! I think we've been mixing a long time.
My Gran was a Scouser and her people were pretty much unilingual Gaelic speakers who emigrated from Ireland, so this is really fascinating for me. Even at 104 and many years away from Liverpool, you could cut her accent with a knife.
Cut her accent with a knife?
@@user-lz5wf You've never heard that saying before?
@@harbourdogNL I haven't, I'm a woolyback
I lived in Liverpool for some years. Three years in a taxi driver asked me if I was visiting for the weekend 🤣
It’s a fascinating accent, amazing place, wonderful people.
This was very interesting thanks 🙏
Accents, dialects and how they developed is so fascinating. It's history in action.
Simon, you may not be a linguist but if you know as much about archaeology as you do abut languages then we live in a very blessed world to have you in it! GREAT WORK!
Yes! My thought exactly! If our lad kicks anywhere near as much butt at archaeology as he does at this, his mere “hobby” … yikes … all I can say is “goodnight, Bocephus!”
As a Scouser, I've been waiting on this video! Great work 👌🏻 It's funny how John Bishop has become the yard stick for the Scouse accent when he's never lived here 😂
He’d be a Woolly.
@@PedrSion Aye - pyar wool mate XD
runcorn overspill
He was born in Liverpool of Liverpool-born parents, so even though he grew up in Cheshire his speech would be influenced by his parents'.
@@jeanrobinson705 but not authentically Scouse - it’s an act
"I am an archaeology student, not a linguist ..." - are you sure, Simon? With this contagious love for language phenomena you'd make a great professor of linguistics.
I was thinking accent/diction coach for singers.
During the nineteenth century there was massive immigration into Liverpool from North Wales, by folk who had Welsh as a first language. I've always wondered how much this has contributed to the scouse dialect.
There was a huge Norwegian and Irish migration too. That’s what it’s a boiling pot of many accents.
I can vouch for this. My Dad's side of the family are from Liverpool and I also went to University in Bangor in North Wales. I observed that when the native Welsh speakers speak in English, they sound "Scouse."
People from Wrexham sound very similar to scousers I find.
@@cmg1819 Born and bred in Wrexham, moved to Liverpool when 21, after acclimatising for a few weeks the locals couldn't tell I was not one of them.
Definitely. I grew up just north of Liverpool but in my late 20s moved to North Wales. The locals spoke Welsh but with a definite hint of scouse. 😊
Excited for these analyses of modern dialects. Thanks Simon!
Thanks for the work collaborating with Dr. Jackson Crawford on Old Norse! I really enjoy his work, and yours, as well, Simon!
The discussion on rhoticity is interesting because it reminds me of the topic of why the classic Boston accent is so famously non-rhotic, despite the city being so heavily influenced by Irish immigration as well...
I’ve been looking for a video on this for ages, thanks Simon!
Wonderful stuff Simon but I wonder if you considered the North Welsh accent and its impact on Scouse. Worth pursuing if you have a moment. Fascinating to head out of Liverpool and drive to Llandudno and hear the accent subtly change every few miles, but there has to be significant influence to my ears.
You have some of the accent retrospectively influencing the Costa del Scouse in more recent North Welsh accents- but certainly the 19th century development of Scouse has the Welsh language and the North Welsh accents as an influence; for most of the 19th and much of the 20th, Liverpool was the capital of North Wales and even held eisteddfodau.
@@ifsey That's overstated. North Wales has people from the West Midlands; greater Manchester etc. There are not overwhelming numbers of scousers in North Wales. Features you probably think of as Scouse are actually influenced to an extent by the NORTH Wales dialect of Welsh. Remember 100,000 Welsh, predominantly Welsh Speakers lived in Merseyside at one time.
@@martinhughes2549 whilst learning welsh when working in Wales I got told that my pronunciation for the welsh words was very good... I think it was the scouse back of the throat pronunciation that helped with the welsh back of the throat prounciation
I agree with banes nut -- my great-grandfather was a Manchester warehouseman in Liverpool (according to some certificate or other) and my grandfather spoke Welsh. Simon, you mentioned Cheshire and Lancashire at the beginning, but Manchester is the main place at their border; Liverpool is at one end, and is very influenced by Wales, and Welsh rural-to-urban immigration.
If you go to Ellesmere Port, and Chester city you get a lot of variation also, some speak Cheshire, some more scouse
North Wales is non-rhotic, and there was a lot of migration to Liverpool from there too. Could that be something to do with it? The fact that /r/ is realised in Scouse as an alveolar tap is consistent with that too, though this feature, I think, is found in, for example, Manchester as well (as is non-rhoticity, of course).
Yes I left a similar comment. "Jones" is also the most common surname in Liverpool according to a recent study. A few other Welsh names in the top 10 also. Hard to imagine there would be no impact on the dialect.
@@NosyFella As late as the late 70s, people were saying that more people spoke Welsh in Liverpool than in Cardiff. There were once whole streets in Liverpool where everyone spoke Welsh. Welsh itself is rhotic but I'm not sure that this is carried over to the pronunciation of English.
Marianne
Yes, Liverpool is very close to the Welsh border, so there is quite possibly a connection with Welsh as well as Irish and even Scottish. The Scouse accent seems to be spreading along the North Wales coast to places like Prestatyn - maybe Liverpudlians who have moved there? You can detect the Scouse/Merseyside twang as far north as Southport, it is distinctly a very different accent to traditional Northern English/Lancashire/Mancunian. I am from North Manchester and used to find Scouse quite difficult to understand when I was younger (no offence).
@@duncanrobinson3200 I don't agree that people in Prestatyn sound like scousers.North Wales accents do not sound like Scouse to me. They share features with Scouse because Scouse developed with a strong Welsh influence. "Youse" for example is never heard in North Wales accents, but its common in Liverpool. Its derived from Irish. There are a lot of Englush people in North Wales but they are not all from Liverpool, there are people from Manchester, Cheshire; the Midlands as well in larger numbers. Places like Flint or Wrexham have a very distinct accent which shares some features with Scouse, Flint accents are quite nasal, but they do not don't sound Scouse, and there isn't many scousers that live there. . Similar, but very distinct. I would say the same for Rhyl or Presatatyn, its a vague similarity, but still very different to my ear.
interesting video, I am originally from Liverpool and have lived in London since 1983, I always get asked if I am Irish. I had no idea that people from North Wales sounded scouse .
You’ve totally underestimated the influence of Welsh in the scouse accent. The name Liverpool is a corruption of the Welsh Llethrpwll, hillside of the pool/creek in English. John Bishop is from Runcorn and Paul o’Grady is from Tranmere, so neither are scousers.
There are some common characteristics between Scouse and North Welsh accents. The Welsh immigration into Liverpool preceded the Irish
My scouse family always told me the accent was a mixture of Irish & North Wales. If you listen to anyone from Chester the North Wales/scouse mix is very clear. As you go into Wirral/North wales the accent changes gradually, whereas going into Lancashire e.g. St Helens, it seems to change abruptly.
I grew up on the border between Liverpool and St Helens, and the difference in accents always amazed me, for people living probably 5 miles apart.
Yep, I agree. I was born and brought up on The Wirral but lived 25 years in NE wales. The Wrexham accent especially is very much a Welsh/Merseyside hybrid
The Liverpool dialect, like most cities, had many zonal variations based on ethnicity, occupation, class and religion until the 1960s and 70s. These were dispersed after the destruction of the blitz, resettlement of the population to the new towns and people leaving under Thatcher. Zones radiated outwards from the docks, street by street; Irish catholic dockers, surrounded by protestant Irish tradesmen (compare John Lennon to Cilla Black), Welsh builders, then towards the suburbs white collar workers in shipping and insurance, who spoke a more Lancashire/Cheshire influenced dialect. A rich merchant class who spoke RP with a slight regional adenoidal twang etc. I think I can still hear echoes of these voices in Liverpool today, even if Scouse has become more homogenised.
Scotty Road was the Irish ☘️🙂
I found this fascinating, thank you. This video was actually completely consistent with the oral history in my family. When I was little my old great great aunty (Who'd be ~125 if she was alive now) used to talk about relations in Liverpool in the 1800s. She recalled them speaking with Lancashire accents and it was clear that should could recall the pre-scouse accent.
I'm from Dublin and was introduced in a Liverpool pub to some scouse mates of my tour operator and we were 10 minutes in before they noticed I was Irish. The background noise made it hard for them to pick out my accent as foreign.
It's notable that me and many Dublin people I know can do a decent impression of a scouse accent but would be unwilling to try any other English accent. Might be the similarities.
I'm from Dublin too and I find both accents quite similar.
That’s not what happened. Scousers are trained to spend most of their talking time listening out for signs of laughter at their pish banter, meaning they take a while to acknowledge them what anyone else has said or how they’ve said it.
@@josephdebri8941 I'm from Liverpool, but when I go to the south-east of Ireland lots of people presume I'm a Dubliner.
@@irnbrubhoy Back in yer cupboard, la.
@irnbrubhoy that's absolutely hilarious. I mean absolutely hilarious. It's the funniest thing I've ever read. It's so fresh and original. My stars, you're so funny. Do you do stand up because I'd love to hear more of this comedy. Oh, my days, I'm floored with your linguistic skills and rye sense of humour... my stars...
Really interesting, as usual, Simon. I’ve often thought that there are noticeable Irish traits in scouse. I can’t speak for welsh, but as I’m currently learning Irish Gaelic I’ve learnt how all consonants can be broad or slender, which explains the modern hibernoenglish pronunciation of t and d in particular. Keep them coming!
I'd always thought Scouse was a mixture of Lancashire, Irish and Welsh, plus a lot of other influences because of the very busy docks. I hadn't thought of Scottish, but can see that it might be an influence.
Great video. Possibly the best technical exploration of the scouse accent I have seen. You mention the difference in scouse accent due to age. It may have been interesting to compare and contrast some earlier recorded examples of the accent to Bishop's (there are lots of clips from the 60s), and I would have liked to hear your analysis. There is an implication in the video of other differentials. These include (but are not limited to) gender, class and location within the city. Interestingly, these are not completely disparate and are sometimes shared between demographic groups across the city. It is fairly rare to meet two scouse speakers with exactly the same accent.
Difference can be very noticeable few miles between North/ South / East Liverpool, or across the Mersey. John Bishop's a South ender (so his accent sounds more like the Beatles), Carras from the opposite side of town, Steven Gerrards a high pitched Huyton head.
Hi Simon, I'm from Wigan. I was just wondering if you knew why our local accents have changed in the last 30 years or so, or maybe the past two generations. I speak totally differently to my grandparents. The same is true in Bolton, St Helens, and a large swath of Lancashire. Thing's like, tha's (thaz) wrong to yer wrong; wash (rhymes with bash) to wash (rhymes with bosh). It's incredible that it's changed so much in such a short time.
Being Irish, and thus very much biased, I'd love to see you analyse some of the variants of hiberno-english. I have a feeling that many vestigial features that were once common across more English speakers dialects are still present.
I'd love to hear to some sort of analysis of the accent of the Isle of Man which sounds so much like a cross between Welsh and northern Irish maybe 80 years or more ago but now seems similar to Scouse.
Thank you, Simon. As usual, when I watch your videos I see I have a lot to learn. Very interesting.
finally properly watched one of your videos after having been subbed for a while through recommendations. your channels awesome mate, thanks a lot
I’m in Texas, and was very surprised to hear that sicken and chicken wouldn’t be expected carry the same vowel sounds in other dialects.
I'm from Michigan and I was also surprised they had different vowels in some dialects
I think it's 'sick en' vs 'chick in'
Me, too. Also made me think of the rhyme, "thinkin' about Lincoln," where both words end with /ɪn/.
In my American dialect, a lot of the unstressed vowels at the ends of words that many Brits pronounce as "uh" (/ə/) are usually "ih" (/ɪ/) or very close to it. Even the words ending in -tion don't rhyme with "shun," but are somewhere closer to "shin."
How about you? Is that how it feels to you in your own dialect?
@@JPlokford yeah, but we’re the people who specify “ink” pen to differentiate pen from pin, so it’s not surprising we’d pronounce both those words with a terminal -in.
@@resourceress7 I'm american and i feel the same, i think it may have to do specifically with that /n/. That is, i think i alway use /ɪ/ and never /ə/ before a nasal
“Eh mate, d’you know wheere de ozzy is mate?”
These are the exact words a scouser said to me from his car once. Took me a few seconds to realize he was asking for directions to the hospital.
Ey. De do do dah doe doen dee doe?
@@kippertrace5808 is all I want to say to you?
@@2small4theMall 🤣🤣 I actually laughed out at that. Nicei👍
Very few people can nail a scouse accent in a way that is convincing to actual scousers. Not only can this guy do it, he can also do the variations.
Liverpool is still Lancashire, it's only the administrative county that's changed. This is a good video on the accent, particularly because it mentions the variety of "Scouses".
It's important to recognise that the accent is built on a Welsh base and has had a strong influx of Welsh- more so than even Gaelic influence.
Liverpool is in Lancaster for sports. That's all.
@@chesterdonnelly1212 No, Deiniol Bythynnwr is correct - the traditional boundaries remain for all but administrative purposes. Here's a page with a few relevant quotes: britishcounties.org/official-statements/
@@inkyscrolls5193 OK some sports and some culture.
@@chesterdonnelly1212 To be fair to you, Liverpool is in the ceremonial county of Merseyside-- the ceremonial counties (crown, rather admin) are the de facto geographical counties of England
@@ddemaine yes but for representative sports it's in Lancashire. If you're really good at rugby, hockey, cricket etc the county you will get to represent is Lancashire not Merseyside. I don't believe there is a Merseyside representative team in any sports.
Funny my dad’s an Irish Liverpudlian and his dad was from Dublin. He says he sometimes can’t tell if someone’s from Liverpool or Dublin 😂
I was just going to comment the same, those two accents are really close
Completely agree! My Father is the same and when I am in Dublin I can hear the huge impact on the Liverpudlian my Father speaks (he is 77 now) and plus the expressions and vocabulary.
Possibly to do with Liverpool being the first stop for a lot of Dubliners who never went any further.
@@Rasher1974 worked that much out 😂
Yes lol!
Bring on ALL the Niche Collabs! And yes I am VERY interested in any IPA deep-dives that might be upcoming
I love learning more and more about your dialects, it's a wonderful feeling.
This channel contains so much unexpected gold! Your pronunciation of quite a challenging accent was surprisingly good. 😄
Thank you. I'm amazed at your erudition on a subject that is not your major field of study.
Being from Lancashire have to say was a very insight video. I have a NI friend, I can see the Irish influence on the Meryside Liverpool area. Some strange mesh between a low dull Lancashire sounding accent and a high pitched Irish accent
I just wanted to say how much I enjoy your videos, and this one on Scouse in particular.
This is so interesting. I've always been fascinated by different accents.
As a North Walian, my accent often gets likened to scouse!
I always felt North Walian accent heavily influenced Scouse in the mud 19th century because of the rural migration for work. And not as some people say Scouse affected North Wales.
Walian?
@@Dinckelburg It’s the plural of Welsh people.
Also the first time I heard Dutch spoken i thought it was scousers with a really strong accent
For me it was the other way around. I heard scouse and thought it was dutch.
Certainly, the Dutch 'g' does sound Scouse-like. Also, the pronunciation of the Dutch word for 'the world' ('de wereld') is very Scouse-like.
@@JHatLpool We can also sound German...as when asking someone to depart...Gerraus!
🤣
You might not be a linguist but you did a great job here! You've got my linguist seal of approval. I love your channel precisely because it's so niche and so well researched.
I’ve listened to a fair number of your films now. You are some kind of genius and deserve to go wherever your mind takes you.
I'm a scouser with an American wife who is a linguist. Never really thought about accents and dialects much until we met so I've really taken an interest, and this video was really enlightening.
But you did enrage a bit of me by calling it the North West Midlands, lol! =)
Only joking. I know the historical connotations of it. Great video, makes me more inclined to know why our accent is so... "different".
Ahhh yess yess Simon lah, been waitin yonks for dis one ye know, nice one ar kid! - A glad Scouser who's been waiting for this video from the start:)
I was born and raised in Liverpool and I've never heard anyone talk like John Bishop.
Cos he's a wool thats why 🤣
I enjoy the collaborations. They pull you and your guests in new directions and open followers to unfamiliar lines of inquiry. Crawford followers get a charge out of your joint projects.
I live in Oklahoma in the States and have developed a decent ear for Scouse through relentlessly listening to Everton podcasts. Cool video!
Keep it up! Coyb!
@@james9789 UTFT through the good and the bad!
…it’s mostly bad, but ETID anyway!
I've just moved to Liverpool. Love the Scouse dialect!
♡ Welcome to Liverpool!
Welcome to Liverpool, Fleet. Hope you soon feel at home here.
Keep producing these.... they are exceptionally interesting. Thank you.
I live in Wales and recognise a lot of back of the throat 'ch' sounds in Scouse which is unknown in any of the other English accents, like in German acht, sechts,etc - and as in 'loch' in Gaelic; someone told me a lot of Welsh people also migrated to Liverpool for work and their accent became incorporated into the Liverpool accent.
John Bishop isn't from Liverpool, he grew up in Runcorn. He has a bit of a 'Super Scouse' accent; more akin to the non Liverpool actors from 'Brookside/Hollyoaks' tv shows and their 'version' of the accent.
I think he lived in Huyton until he was 10 then moved to Winsford then Runcorn. But yes he's a bit of a plazzy scouser.
How weird, I heard he was from skelmersdale!! 😄
Good point. There is a difference between the (as you call it) 'Super Scouse' and the everyday form. The Liverpool born footballers would be a better reference point. I would say that they have far more typical Scouse accents.
Agree, as a scouser I've never found Bishop's accent genuine, but the rest of this video seems right to me.
8:40 thank you so much for noticing this distinction. So many people think us Irish can't pronounce "th", but we just pronounce it differently. (Though there are some parts of the country where people sometimes outright pronounce it as "t" thougg)
Kerry
I've heard losts of irish was tirty tree
@@yourmum69_420 yes but not all of Ireland. It probably about 50:50
My favourite video from you yet Simon. Scouse is my favourite regional dialect from around the UK and every time I visit my friends in Liverpool, I come home with a quasi-Scousism! Totally boss 😉
Good video as always! I'll be waiting eagerly for your next collaboration with Dr. Crawford.
I recently moved from England to the Northside of Dublin. The local dialect is very like Scouse, particularly the t / d development and the missing word endings e.g. ‘with’ / ‘wi’ and ‘without’ / ‘wifouw ’. But Scouse is more sing-song and I wonder if that’s a Welsh influence.
Scouse is well known to many Americans due to the popularity of the Beatles. I remember the first time I heard George Harrison talk I could barely understand him! And in the Anthology he mentions that his mother's family were from Ireland.
The scouse accent seems to have changed since the beetles.
Or perhaps they were trying to bbc themselves.
@@herrfister1477 The scouse accent seems to have changed? Which one? Not everyone has ever sounded the same in Liverpool. Depends on class and area. John Lennon was from a middle class background in Woolton. He was never going to sound like a working class kid from Birkenhead or even Bootle. Plus there is a distinct difference between North and South of Liverpool, let alone over the water or even places further east like Kirkby and Huyton.
@@adobdebunkology5671
You might be right.
I suppose what I mean is the scouse accent we hear in the media seems to have changed.
But then again perhaps the same is true of most accents.
@@adobdebunkology5671 Birkenhead isn't Liverpool and they're not scouse
Thank you for making these excellent videos! Another thing you could do Simon is a video on the Irish and Welsh influence on the Birmingham accent. A clear indication of S.E.Wallian influence on Brummie is our pronunciation of the words ‘tooth’ and ‘year’ (‘tooth’ has the same vowel as ‘foot’ and ‘year’ has the same vowel as ‘sir’).
Nice one Si lad! Thought Scouse was too niche to hope for a vid, can't wait to watch
When speaking Danish, Scousers are often 'accused' of really coming from Iceland. Liverpol being a seaport means the Scouse accent has a lot of influences, I suppose.
It may have been Irish influencing both Icelandic and Scouse in similar ways. One way or another, a lot of Irish wound up in Iceland in its early days.
How many scousers speak Danish?
"Accused" is it that bad to be from Iceland 😀
@@Salford66 🙋♀️ I am Liverpudlian and I am learning Danish.
@@ellebeatty4343 There is one then😃 My point was that I have never heard of anyone from anywhere in the UK learning Danish. Yet the original poster was making out that scousers speaking Danish was commonplace.
Where does the word "Scouse" come from?
Never mind, looked it up: The traditional explanation is that scouse is a contraction of 'lobscouse', which was a type of stew (Norse "lapskaus" in origin), once popular among sailors, and is still eaten in Liverpool today. Compare this with the German 'Labskaus', and Welsh 'lobsgows', both approximately similar dishes.
Strangely was about to ask if you would consider a study into the scouse accent. Lo & behold you had done it ...brilliant. I think consideration to Liverpool being a port to many nations and the sailors who over time settled in Liverpool bringing their own language influences, on top of the Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Lancastrian influences. For example, I was always fascinated by the word 'lah' , apparantly meaning man in Portuguese. There is also an abundance of naval terms amongst its slang.."hit the deck" being just one. ...but the influence on its accent of immigrant sailors who settled in Liverpool can't be understimated.
Sublime video, Simon.
Truly loved it.
Used to work in Rural North Wales - I used to wonder how all these scousers had ended up owning farms in the mountains 😂 obviously as I got older I realised how close the accents are, large influx of welsh miners In Liverpool I believe there are still lots of welsh churches In Liverpool.
Yes.
Welsh miners ?Only from the south east of Wales - North West Wales used to have slate quarries .
If you listen to old people in North Wales, they speak English with a more traditional Welsh accent, but the younger people sound more Scouse, not sure why, but maybe they think it sounds cooler.
@@brythonicman3267 Yes ,I've noticed that.
My Grandfather (1889-1982) was from Trefriw in North West Wales .Welsh was his first language ; he pronounced a 'Z' with an 'S' : Zebra in the Zoo became 'Sebra in the Soo'.He also would pronounce 'lorry' - "lurry'' and the word 'longer without the 'g' sound.
It seems that the younger generation of Northwalians have been influenced by a massive influx of Mancunians and Scousers who've since settled there.
Liverpool use to be refered to as "the capital of North wales" decades ago..
Whenever I leave Ireland and go to the UK
"Say the line Paddy!"
Me: *sigh* Turty Tree
Fuh'ee free and a fuhhhd, innit gov?
"thirty-three dirty nurses" is one I was asked to say one time. Much sniggering was had at my expense lol
Every time I leave Scotland and go to England it's "go on ...say it"
Murder.
There will be MURRDERR if you ask me one more time!
Never occurred to me until now how much of the classic New Yawk accent retains elements picked up from Irish immigrants, considering one of the old jokes about the accent is how people would say "Meet you at toity-toid and toid."
Thirty three and a third:= Dirty tree and a turd....😁
What a great idea! Investigating phonology through misspellings! I had read about Latin phonology reconstructed from rhyming...
Thank you!
As a Scouser myself, I thought this was fascinating. I've tried for years myself to figure out when the accent changed to be distinctly separate from the rest of Lancashire. I notice still with older members of my family that there's still a remnant of a Lancashire twang to their voices that's completely gone with my parents and my generation. The accent seems to have become much harsher over the last 70 years and much more difficult for outsiders to understand. Especially in the north end of the city where the stereotypical accent has it's roots. The south end is somewhat softer in particular in regards to hard consonants such as the K which becomes an X to north enders. I'd be curious to see the effect scouse has had on the accents in the surrounding areas, especially after the slum clearances of the 60s and 70s where entire communities where shipped from the middle of the city to the towns nearby. Considering the socio-economic background of the communities affected they'd have likely had quite strong accents as that seems to be the case in the world, which would no doubt see a huge shift on the dialect of the locals growing up alongside their new neighbours.
I agree with you about the North / South accents. I’m descended directly on all sides from the Irish immigrants, and I noticed an Irish lilt in my grandparents voices. Many were still speaking Gaelic in their parents generation so it could be why it was preserved. It’s still there like in “fillim” which I say instead of film lol, and it’s to do with the extra vowel in Irish before certain letters like m.
There was a big inflow of Welsh-speakers to Liverpool and Birkenhead in the 1800s and early 1900s, mainly from North Wales. I think Scouse has been partly influenced by the distinctive nasal North Welsh accent. Interestingly, Scouse is influencing the accent of many in North Wales these days (both English-only speakers, and some Welsh speakers when they speak English). You can hear this effect right along the coastal area from the border to the West of Anglesey.
Great video Simon! You have a really nice channel. I love learning about languages and dialects. I arrived here from Norbert's videos with you. Some time back, when I was exploring dialects of England for a while (as a hobby), and northern dialects had particularly caught my fancy. I'd come across a description of this rhotic feature in Lancastrian. In 'accent challenge' and similar videos on youtube and speech samples of dialects elsewhere, where Lancastrians speaking a spectrum of accents from RP to proper Lanky can be seen, and most people didn't have rhotic accents, but later I found some couple of samples, including one 'accent challenge' video, of rhotic accents. Mostly seemed to be from around the Accrington region. I think quite likely rhoticity, since quite some time (after not all dialects remained rhotic), has been limited to only a part of Lancashire.
I think this 'are' pronunciation of 'ur' might be the most distinctive Scouse vowel. Elsewhere in northwestern England, I've mostly heard 'ur' instead of 'are' ('hur' for hair) especially in non - urban areas, including various regions of Lancashire, Merseyside and Manchester. The diphthongal feature of 'ay' and 'oa' seems to be an urban thing since I believe this is also a feature of the urban Mancunian accent. Quite possibly big counties like Lancashire and the Yorkshires have or at least used to have, visible regional variation within themselves. Seeing that many websites providing some dialectal vocabulary are often mixed up, with different websites giving different words for the same region, and words from one region often appearing in another (neighboring region) I feel this is why it's so. It's really wonderful to watch your videos, please keep making them.
I love how the background, lighting, and shirts keep changing in your videos. Maybe hats could be next. Love it :)
It would be worth you having a look at the north Staffordshire potteries dialects.
I just commented about the similarities and thought perhaps it’s due to a large Irish immigrant population that arrived in Stoke to work in the Potteries via Liverpool
Such an interesting video we see the same change in Cardiff Barry and Newport too during this period due to immigration from the West Country and Ireland into wales an example of this localised Urban accent would be the character Nessa from Gavin and Stacy .
You can definitely hear some West Country influences in the Cardiff accent. Sounds totally different to the valleys.
Can't wait for those upcoming linguistics videos! I wonder how you always manage to get into contact with so many different researchers, but it's really cool.
As someone born in Birkenhead, to parents from Liverpool and Lancashire, I approached this video with a certain degree of scepticism (as we know, youtube is FULL of hopelessly inaccurate "let's look at this accent/dialect" videos!), but I am mightily impressed. Well done, Mr Roper! This is excellent. However, I agree with the comments by those who've pointed out the influence of North Welsh on Scouse. This is well worth investigation. I can tell a "Welsh scouser" from an "Irish scouser" to this day, though having never analysed the differences I'd be hard pressed to explain them!
A very interesting video. One point; I would have expected a strong North Wales influence in the Scouse accent. A lot of Liverpudlians have Welsh surnames.
Yea, it use to be refered to as "the capital of North wales"
Yup I’m Scouse and my Surname is Griffiths
You've not mentioned Welsh influence - would that account for some of the unexplained differences? Large population of Welsh decent and were even Welsh speaking Chapels surviving in parts of Liverpool until the 1980s.
@Garry Nevill The most common surname in Liverpool is Jones. Many of the Welsh immigrants to Liverpool were from rural parts of the North and spoke little/no English, whereas the Irish were overwhelmingly Anglophone.
@Garry Nevill I'd like a source for that. The Irish connection is well known but many Irish just passed through Liverpool embarking for the US etc. They didn't stay. I'm from Liverpool and there is a massive Welsh influence here. The city is literally known as the capital of North Wales. Pretty much everyone I know has a Welsh grandmother, the city hosted the Welsh National Eisteffodd on numerous occasions around the turn of the 19/20th century, many road names are Welsh, the phone book is full of Welsh names - and as mentioned there were Welsh speaking chapels well into the 1980s, such as in Wavertree, which is in the east of the city and furthest from the Welsh border...
@@pinwyrdd Yes lots of Lloyds, Lewis, Williams, Edwards, Owens, Evans, Hughes etc. It's a greatly overlooked part of the city's past.
@Garry Nevill You are talking absolute rubbish. A simple Google search returns plenty of articles on the subject of Liverpool as "Capital of North Wales" As recently as 2013 there were moves to hold the Welsh National Eisteddfod there - with the last being held in 1929.
@Garry Nevill ruclips.net/video/A1RMa1MUWHA/видео.html
Loved this breakdown, thanks.
As always a good engaging video, though no mention being made of north Wales is a bit of an omission. Listening to 'Gogs' speak Welsh gives very strong hints as to where a lot of Scouse vowel phonology drew influence from.
I live in North America and my bread and butter is Midwestern, Bostonian, and New York accents. It’s cool to hear about European accents.
can you do a general lancashire video? as a rhotic lancastrian speaker i find our accent massively under respresented everywhere even among linguistic studies, everyone cares about scouse/geordie/mancunian/yorkshire, even mackem gets more attention than cumbric or lancs.
My Mum is from Tyldesley.
I'm from Lancaster and have lived in Lancashire all my life but still find the 'ou' sound in south Lancashire accents fascinating
Agreed! I'm born and bred on the Fylde Coast, and I'm fascinated by the variances in Lancashire accents - the beautiful Fred Dibnah type, East Lancashire, Preston, rural Lancashire etc. It also puzzles me how the Fylde coast accent seems a lot flatter than the surrounding areas.
I grew up in Yorkshire and one of the most foreign aspects of the Lancs dialect was the Somerset "r"'s, found predominantly in Rochdale. For example Stephen Thorne in the BBC's "Uncle Mort's South Country" (by Peter Tinniswood).
Whereabouts in Lancashire are you from? I’m from Shaw, I have quite a got south lancashire accent
I've been hoping you'd do a video on this. Thanks!
The scouse accent of today is much changed from the accent of my youth, i can still hear my mother speaking in my head ,it was much softer and pleasant to listen to. I have trouble readily understanding some young people after the game, I am 88 years of age, I suppose it is to be expected, love the things you do keep it up RON ROBERTS
I'd like to see a video on the Hull accent. Another unique accent which is lesser known than scouse. I've heard that it has a Scandinavian influence and Danes in particular find it easy to follow.
Related to this video, the vowels in "burnt" and "nurse" in scouse are pronounced the same way in Hull (and Middlesbrough too I believe) which is unusual as they're on opposite coasts.
There were Norse?/viking settlements on the Wirral so perhaps that is something these places had in common as an influence?
Love the Hull accent
I've loved the scouse accent ever since I saw Blood Brothers.... and ever since watching Jamie Carragher analyse match footage.
The Irish Famine was the main event that led to hundreds of thousands of Irish people arriving in Liverpool during the mid 19th century. Many passed through before emigrating further, but many others stayed on in slums and hovels, by choice or because of not being able to afford to travel further. A traditional Dublin city accent has so many sounds and pronunciations in common with the modern Scouse accent. One good example worth listening to - Brian Kerr, former Rep. of Ireland national team manager!
My new favourite channel
I also notice, some Americans that I know, and some Germans that I know, in their respective languages, release NG with a K (which is really a G without vocal chords)
Such as the Long Island variety in New York State where we might hear, Lonk Island, as you rightly observe.
Yes, some Germans say ʁɪŋk instead of ʁɪŋ for Ring.
I'm no expert nor an American, but I've heard this is a new shift/ feature among younger Americans
In Tocharian -nk is used in loanwords from Middle Chinese to transcribe the Chinese /-ŋ/. The velar nasal is apparently not a common sound in Indo-European languages generally.
Fun fact: wals.info has a map (feature 9A) of the distribution of the /ŋ/ sound among the world's languages.
German has final devoicing as a regular feature - i.e. every voiced stop is devoiced at the end of a phrase. "Tag" is pronounced /ta:k/, "Hund" is pronounced /hunt/. (In contrast to the plural "Tage" where the voiced consonant reappears - /'ta:gǝ/.)
So while it's non-standard to pronounce the G in "Ring", if you do, you'll automatically devoice it to K at the end of words.
On the day I see an extremely confusing tweet from a British person with the word "scouse" in it (had no idea what they were talking about), you upload a video on it. Amazing.
Liverpudlians are called 'Scouse' after a stew dish called 'lobscouse' (originally fish but now more commonly neck of lamb) introduced to Liverpool by Norwegian seamen. So, as well as Irish, Welsh and Scottish influence, there is a Scandinavian element too.