Intersectionality isn't "this person's white so their whiteness outweighs their other marginalization" intersectionality is "this person's white and despite also being gay they still benefit from white privilege and may have their views effected by not experiencing racial oppression" the former is literally just oppression olympics, Mel is talking about intersectionality like what conservatives think intersectionality is.
Both of these are dumb claims. Based on this we should believe Candace Owens because she isn't white and her lack of white privilege benefits her views. It's the same statement twice.
@@vanmello1680 You may have noticed that I said the person's views MAY be influenced by their white privilege, Candace Owens isn't effected by white privilege but she's sure as hell effected by the money she gets for saying racist shit
@@theliberation9061 babe, for one; no one is denying that oppression tends to manifest differently in different countries. Sure, a lesbian from Cali is not as oppressed as a feminine man in East Europe but a lesbian in east Europe is probably not having a good time over there. Two, the idea of white privilege and bigotry against Eastern Europeans can and do coexist. Literally the definition of intersectionality. Eastern Europeans haven’t been assimilated into the concept of whiteness so they often face social barriers that other Europeans don’t, especially Romani people. I can believe that and also believe that white people in most western countries are given advantages other groups aren’t.
@Rusty Shackleford does she have a poor understanding or is she deliberately warping history to fit her narrative? People like her lie about history all the time, especially about communist countries
@@kyla8386 I would argue that it's probably a mix of both, to be honest. In my own experience, poor understanding of history leads to jumping to conclusions about things, then soon enough that conclusion becomes established fact in your mind, and it becomes incredibly tough to undo when it's confronted by actual facts. Once you're believing things you've convinced yourself are true, it starts you down the road to revising history to suit your narratives and excising things you dislike or embellishing things you do like. There is also just the simple desire to revise history to make your ideal country seem better and your hated country to seem worse, just as a propaganda tactic. 🤷♂️
“I don’t care about the Uyghur genocide because I can’t do anything about it”, is one of the most psychotic things I’ve heard. How anyone can defend her after that is crazy.
Yeah, that was a pretty disturbing thing of her to say. Neither I or Mel can stop other countries from committing atrocities, but we can *absolutely* have a moral stance about it. I can point at China killing Uyghurs or Myanmar killing Rohingya and say "that's not good."
Vaush gave her a 100% out by saying she could say her twitter posts aren't meant to be taken seriously and the things she's said are indefensible but she couldn't do it.
true!!!!! "I'm not gonna defend the tweets cause lol it's just a meme bruh but also I am not going to disavow them because then my tankie mutuals will hate me." it's a joke when people press her on them, but she signals to her own crowd that she totally believes in all of it. totally fucking disingenuous, what a weasley shithead.
Technically, but not really. The way he phrased it made it pretty explicitly seem like it'd be an admission of defeat or unethical behavior. "It's just memes" is apparently her standard defense whenever someone tries to call her out on stream, and she even started off this session by making that argument, so the fact that she didn't take him up on it seems like an indication that she didn't see it as an out.
Why not use those tweets to spread awareness about the atrocities committed by certain countries? Oh wait, she doesn't get brownie points from fellow tankies for doing that.
I mean, I do think Mel should have left the call, because the tweet reviewing was pretty stupid. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it's necessary. I actually think it would have been more effective for Vaush to ask questions about her ideology, while feigning amicability, and then use her tweets to demonstrate her hypocrisy. But still it's her fault for being an idiot and not just leaving. If you don't want to talk about what the host is talking about just leave. Oh but that money. Haja
It's very easy to excuse an abuser when you're being victimized by someone who is pretending to be the victim the whole time. I grew up with someone who did this to me constantly and every time I called her out she would turn it around on me saying I was being mean when she literally verbally and physically abused me and I didn't even retaliate. So yes, these tactics are really dangerous and harmful regardless of her intentions.
Mel wanted to keep her bad Twitter hot takes and eat them too; she couldn’t decide whether she wanted to say that they didn’t matter or if that they made legitimate points. If they really didn’t mean anything, she so easily could have said, “I don’t support the shit I say on Twitter,” like Vaush offered. Funnily enough, this is a lot like how Nazi memes work. You present a claim in the form of a, “joke,” say that it shouldn’t be taken seriously, but then continue to insist that it made a good point. It’s doublethink.
Damn less than five minutes in and she’s already using abuser tactics. “Why does it upset you?” He’s not upset at all? He’s questioning something you said?
And also, it wouldn't matter if he were upset, because you can't determine the merit of a person's line of reasoning based on their emotional state--Which has always been a thing reactionaries overwhelmingly fail to understand.
@@merlin3427 The difference between what Vaush usually does and this is that if you try to use your emotional state as your argument "I am angry so you are wrong" then you can be discredited for it. But when you give a completely independent argument while being angry then your emotional state can't be used as a weapon against your argument. Now he might have done the same in videos that I haven't watched, but then again, I'm not a Vaush expert
Abuser tactics? I'm getting a sense that many of yall don't know how to have conversations with others. If she hit him or insulted him and then said "why are you upset," then it would be abusive. Just assuming he's upset bc he finds her statement contentious is not abusive lmao. I think its really weird that you would say someone is abusive bc she assumed that Vaush was upset bc he disagreed with a part of her statement or said something negative about it. (Had to edit this paragraph it didn't make sense before) Prolly still better if she asked "why do you disagree," but it's not like everyone on the debate floor has super great convo skills, most people say things as careless as they can get away with, but now its abuse if you say it a nice voice or something?
THAT WAS THE SAME FOR ME. i talked about it on twitter and she literally responded and first apologized for me having been abused then going on to say i don’t know what abuse is
Literally the entire discussion was her trying to gaslight, deflect, and absolve herself of responsibility. And even if she hadn't done that, she still deserved to be treated like the piece of shit genocide denier that she is. I legitimately do not understand anyone who was on her side, even during the actual discussion. Tankies bad.
I commented on the original video that it was different from how Vaush usually opens debates. He usually gives chat some background on who a person is or gives the guest room to hang themselves before going guns blazing. I had no idea who Mel was before the video (I’m not on Twitter), so it took a little bit before I got the full scope of how terrible she is. I think the anger was justified but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little taken off guard at first by how quickly it started
@@poodlekissesreborn3948 He did offer some background on her in the full vod leading up to the debate. I can see how someone might have been confused from just watching the debate video, but I was irritated almost immediately with her behavior when Vaush wanted to go over the tweets.
@@socialist_vocalist yeah I have the same feeling. I didn't watch the stream, I don't really know who Mel is, but by virtue of her Tweets, and her being incapable of either defending them or disavowing them, she revealed herself to be a bad person, honestly. She reaffirmed continually throughout the debate, my belief, that she is as bad as her Twitter feed is. It could also be that I'm already quite biased against tankies just because of their general beliefs already, but again, Mel 100% reinforced the beliefs I have here honestly.
More debate reviews like this please. I have an abstract understanding of manipulative behavior, but I have a hard time even noticing it in real time. Going through and pointing it out like this is genuinely informative.
Very true, it’s not hard to get the feeling that something is wrong, but it is harder to clarify exactly what is giving you that feeling. And it’s even harder to notice and respond to it when it’s being done to you in real time. This is a very helpful case study in identifying manipulative behavior.
@@TurtleChad1 Can i take you home and feed you lettuce? Or, like, fascist blood? Or whatever else it is turtles eat? I really like turtles and tortoises and want one as a pet.
And then try to argue that it wasn’t idpol when she was called out on it every single time. She never actually had an argument for why, either, so she always tried to just pivot as quickly as possible.
"This isn't how normal people talk" was the first omega yikes red flag from her that i noticed. straight up abuser language, dehumanizing your opponent by appealing to normalcy.
also super duper ableist, just a straight up attack against Vaush for having a cadence/way of wording things that's pretty typical of certain autistic people (like me!)
really? you're doing exactly what she and her ilk do with this comment. There was nothing "yikesy" about that comment. She just made bad arguments cause she believes dumb things. Nothing she said was aBuSeR lAnGuAgE
Definitely ableist. But tbh, I didn't notice anything abnormal about how he was talking. I think she was frustrated and grabbing at straws. She had nothing
@@botanicalitus4194 That was absolutely abuser language dude you've never been in an abusive relationship if you can't recognize that shit. Abusers constantly start shit and when you call them out on it and get angry with them they'll say "wow you're acting so irrational rn" "no normal person acts like this" which is exactly what she told vaush while his autism was flaring up mind you
I don't know who she is and still don't really know the context of the discussion on twitter that took place, but it honestly just looks ugly to me. I think Vaush's approach here prevented any sort of substantive critique of her position by putting her on the defensive in a way that boxed her in rather than by feeding in agreeable statements until a substantive point of critique could be located. Who even is this lady?
I know who. Cause they attacked me for a comment. They legit think Vaush is a fascist with psychopaths as followers and is capitalism embodied, determined to trample an Asian trans person. It's crazy. They live in some sort of constructed narrative. This is Trump all over but on the left
@@AlextheBant I dunno, I feel like there's a sort of uncharitability here that does arise from differences in psychology that aren't really served by the format of discussion Vaush used in a live format. I think Vaush would have been better served by being far more charitable, to get to the substance of the argument (the actual text in contention) before dismissing their substance so aggressively. I think a lot of these bad takes that come from lefties on social media is the result of a lack of direct communication, and when we enter into discussion with preformed biases created over social media rather than to highlight and demonstrate the validity of those biases through direct conversation, we do a disservice to ourselves and to the broader left. Iono, I just feel like social media has made us all too aggro, and we all should take accountability for it.
@@danielheflin6658 I would agree with you, if discussing with these people wasn't just as impossible as discussing with flat earthers. Vaush wasn't given much choice here. She twisted and turned around every subject and evaded every direct question. It's complete bad faith. I tried discussing things with her followers. Apart from dogpiling onto me and literally inventing a narrative and twisting history, it was completely impossible to talk. They are convinced China is good and NK is too. They are convinced Vaush is a pedo fascist and they won't step out of their narrative cause they are not interested in truth. You can't discuss in good faith with people who refuse to engage in the same system of logic
There's always some shouting over each other in these debates but I noticed that Mel seems to be shouting over Vaush not to compete w him to make her own points like people normally are, but to simply drown out his speech and distract from what he's saying. It's pathetic
@@coryfice1881 I watched the debate live and she acted like my abusive mother the whole time so I never had any sympathy for her. I was shocked to see so many people pushing back on Vaush afterwards, just because she has the uwu voice.
@@artisticcannibalism1350 Shouting down an abuse victim, to the point of her being close to tears telling him to tone down and then claiming "serves her right" is not sociopathic? I though we as leftists are supposed to be compassionate. It is very telling though that you care about the blood sport aspect of all this. Not seeing the obvious and almost ridiculous power imbalance here is also telling of your social skills.
"most people do not have the skills necessary to recognise when they are being fucked with" TRUUUUUUUUUUUE. I didn't realise my abuser was doing until they tried throwing a table at me for asking how I could help them.
Wait, is it not normal for people to get irritated at you for asking how you can help them? Legitimately asking, because someone in my life does it all the time and I'm not sure what to think of that Edit: obviously throwing a table is more than just being irritated, but general principle
Vaush: **Attacks the ideas and arguments Mel gave** Mel: PEOPLE SAY THINGS THEY DON'T MEAN ON TWITTER, THEY MEME THEY SHITPOST. Vaush: Okay, then how about we go through and YOU tell me what you meant? Mel: Sure!! Vaush: **does the thing she asked him to** Mel: NORMAL PEOPLE DON'T DO THIS VAUSH, WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME WHAT I MEANT BY THE THINGS I SAY, THIS ISN'T HOW NORMAL PEOPLE TALK! (side note: That is 100% ableist, and abusive, it's straight up gaslighting. Making you think you're insane for trying to make her defend her positions.)
she proceeded to do exactly that on twitter. you should see how her friends were coddling her "oh you poor poor thing you were victimized by the big bad ciswhitemale Vowsh"
Even funnier that he doesn't even know stuff like "simp" is only against TOS if used to to degrade someone's actual sexual life - not even their behaviour.
Honestly I have no idea what the "🥺" face in Mel's tweets is supposed to communicate to me. Like, she used it *so* often, and right after someone asking what - to me, at least - seemed like a sincere question. Is it sarcastic, or does she actually think I'm so stupid that using an emoji will distract me from the fact she hasn't answered? Either way it reads like an insult.
she uses abuser tactics and constantly gets away with "I'm a cute girl why are you being mean?!"... so that emoji is just her translating the same thing into text form.
you know how in the shrek movies, puss in boots will take his hate off and pull an OwO cute kitten face to distract from how dangerous he is? its that, but on twitter being done by a sociopath.
Same. Ex was a lot more aggressive first, then did the whole thing like a wrestler hitting a dude with a chair behind a ref's back and then doing the hands up/drop chair 'i didn't do anything, he fell into the chair' routine to the ref when they turn around and see them going for a second shot.
So you're gonna make me look bad by forcing me to answer very clearly yes or no to a very specific question thus revealing what I've been dancing around for the past fifteen minutes???? That's cheating no fair
@@claymusicoff5663 I think Mel has a history of reacting remarkably strongly to yes or no questions, which Vaush alluded to at various points. I guess it's a common tactic people use with her because she has a reputation for, in Dylan Burns' words, "never committing to anything".
@@Anthropomorphic I noticed that near the end she would very often disagree with Vaush, then restate his point with some more info added on. But when asked "does this added info contradict my point", she said no. So essentially she was agreeing with him, but categorically incapable of admitting it.
I'm fairly certain anyone who can't start with Yes or No and then qualifying their Yes or No, or can at least ask for qualification for the yes or no if they're unclear but instead starts going off on some other tangent or 'that's silly', even against JLP, is or is attempting to be dishonest. Even when JLP asks, 'Do you love black people?', just say yes. Then say, 'Except Jeff, Jeff has poor fashion taste and I won't extend my heart to him until he stops wearing those ugly palm tree print polo shirts.'. Or whatever.
I hate how much leeway twitch chat was trying to give Mel. She was manipulative throughout the entire debate and i wish twitch chat would be better about catching her tone of voice. Sounds like we really need to teach your audience about manipulation tactics in debate.
the whole point of manipulation tactics is to make people take their side, so it's not a surprise folk fell for it - that's legit the entire reason for these tactics people need to be careful with this kind of shit
Honestly his chat has always been kind of dumb. They are far too easily swayed on so many things, and often don't actually think about what they're hearing. They rely on intuition far too often.
@@Crawver most people don't spend time really delving into what's being talked about, i'm afraid - that's just life, and true of all chats in existence as fun as it would be to dunk on folk for not being as smart as my big brained ass or whatever, i understand that most people have better things to do than to critically think about this stuff (or at least they think they do, which leads to the same thing) a lot of folk listen passively and follow whomever seemed the "strongest", which is okay as long as that means they end up supporting the left in the end so here's hoping the bloodsports end in more victories for vaush than defeats, eh?
I think we can be critical of Mel and also of vaush. Mel is a piece of shit, yes, but vaush wasn't great either in this, at all. I hate how he denies any responsibility in how he treats her, and that is justified, when it's not. We can be critical of Mel and also say that what vaush did is not the best
@@robilotte11 He treated her exactly as she deserved, with her weaslly self-infantilising bullshit. Just cause she's all uwu widdle me doesn't mean you treat her any softer than anyone else who comes on, that's some sexist fuckery
This woman is seriously the new Lily Orchard with how manipulative and gaslighty she is, except I don’t think even Lily Orchard was this fake-cutesy or a genocide denier.
Yeah, Lily at least was pretty up front about how she's kind of a dickhead. Like she is still a PoS, but at least doesn't try to hide it under a veneer of cutesy tone.
@@youdoyouidome7452 Lily got on Vaush’s channel a while back for making a really spiteful, dishonest, gaslighty, and flagrantly jealous video about Contrapoints.
@@youdoyouidome7452 I recall Vaush dubbed her one of the few, actual, SJW's. Gets enraged about Steven universe and She-ra when they are literally some of the most progressive shows ever.
lol holy shit "why does that upset you" and just the general tone & tactics Mel uses are straight up verbal/emotional abuse tactics. literally sounds exactly like my abusive ex of 5 years lmfaooo this is wild wtf
@@claymusicoff5663 Bad Faith. Manipulation To Garner Audience Sympathy & To Passively Command Vaush' Silence/Subservience Through Gaslighting & Victimization Through Positioning Herself As A Victim Simply Bc She's Being Called On Her Shit.
@@claymusicoff5663 Literally anyone who has dealt with an emotionally manipulative person knows what this means. Watching this debate gave me flashbacks. Lmfao
@@theliberation9061 I would say. He made a whole video to make her look like a manipulator? 🤨 "DO I SOUND MAD?" as he sounded like he was seething even though he wasn't loud dafuq
@@theliberation9061 YES. THIS. This is such a huge god damn point that everyone is missing!!! And when you don't react the way they want you to, they start to lose their shit!
I couldn't figure out why the argument wasn't going anywhere the whole time. I just kept asking "what does she actually believe in?" then I realized that was the point. Hella sketchy.
Awe don't be mean to the person who made fun of genocide 🥺. The vanguard class is going to UwU their way into complete class consciousness and can't handle meanies.
@GraveSinger I got in a “debate” with one on Twitter yesterday and they’re just larping as 1945 soviets at this point, felt like i slipped into an au when they said shooting children is ok and Stalin did nothing wrong
@@theliberation9061 100% they’re fascists, it’s beyond disgusting they keep calling themselves leftists when they are basically indistinguishable from actual neo nazis and use the same rhetoric
@GraveSinger does sado masochism have sub genres because this would be one of them, but like there’s no pleasure it’s just all horrible agony as you subject yourself to endless tankie rhetoric
I noticed her dishonesty right from the start with how she refused to answer basic questions. People need to understand that just because a person is passive, doesn’t mean they’re not abusive.
@@NatsumiTakanawa I think it'd have helped if he'd prefaced the debate with some background on Mel. I also didn't know what I got into so I watched Dylan's video instead. Doesn't mean Vaush was wrong, of course.
Every time that Mel put on that fucking UwU voice, I got chills down my spine. Every time, my thought process was the same. “Oh, this is someone who is trying to manipulate me and they’re very good at it. This is not someone to be trusted. We’re back *here* again.”
Yuppp. Nails on chalkboard for me, every single time it happened I tensed up. The next thought that goes through my head is "this person can't admit the Uighur genocide is happening." I don't get less tense from there.
@@runakinsley3450 Three years ago, that act would’ve worked on me exactly how she wanted it to. Unfortunately for her, I’m not as stupid as I was three years ago anymore.
Honestly props to Vaush for being able to keep his cool. I would’ve lost it on her the first time she did that because, at least to me, it’s so obvious and it just ignites a rage in me to know that she thinks she’s getting away with it too.
I moderate on a pretty big trans community discord, so cutesy "ruwule bweaking" is something I see through. When watching this I first got the impression,"man, vaush does _not_ like this person, I wonder if that's justified?" 20 minutes in I'm convinced it is
Also, isn't Mel trying to have it both ways with her "well it's Twitter, who cares" and right after trying to defend the "lol of course a white dude would say this" comment? Tbh when people say that shit the response should be: "so, if you think that because I don't have THAT experience of oppression I will NEVER be able to understand your issue? In that case we can't even have a conversation on this. If instead you think you can make me understand, then make me understand".
She also claimed multiple times she'll clarify her positions on things, but when asked to clarify she says the equivalent of "lol no". It's fucking disgusting.
@@carlocousins9714 I'm not sure they are, that comment smells of automation. 'would love more like this'? Like, all Vaush does is watch and debate and explain things and people found on the internet....lol 'Would love more vaush talking into a microphone videos!' lol
@@heavysystemsinc. think you might be reading too far into it dude. DistantKingdom has posted several comments on Vaush's videos, some of them very specific and critical of Vaush's arguments.
@Ashley’s Animation Kingdom that's kinda true I think. He is still a tiny bit politer to cis women than men but I do agree he is even more polite to trans women. Has he talked to a trans man at any point? No hate I'm genuinely curious if he has. I don't think there is enough perspective of their life. I could be wrong tho on that too. Anyone legit feel free to educate me as well if I am.
It was because vaush was being confrontational because she was being a dumb fuck but her smooth brain was unable to reciprocate the aggression so it left vaush perpetuatealy calling her bullshit which after a time starts to look bad. Maybe if vaush just muted her and pointed out all the dumb shit in a more playful tone he could look better but fundamentally nothing would change.
Hello Comrades. These are some friendly reminders from your neighborhood non-binary commie: - Drink plenty of water, at least 3 cups today - have you eaten today? remember to do that please - are you binding/tucking? make sure you give yourself a break! - please remember that you are loved - even if you don’t love yourself, I love you, you are completely valid, and you matter - get good sleep - meditate for at least 15 minutes daily - and don’t forget to take your meds if you need to!! have a good day
I'd like to add one (that's relevant to this video as well): Identify toxic people and if possible, cut them out of your life. Narcissistic people especially, If it's family and hard to get away, learn how to deflect their verbal assaults, not combat them (that makes it worse) Have a good day, comrades!
Her post after made it seem like she was some sort of victim afterward. She has a total disconnect between her mistreatment of people on Twitter versus how her arguments are treated.
I actually really prefer this form of content. It feels like having guard rails so that I don't have to just sit and listen to the manipulative crying of an abuser. I can confirm as a victim of emotional abuse that the red flags vaush pointed out are absolutely real, and they actually made it really hard to sit through this.
Mel is familiar to me, not because we have ever talked, but because my ex-abusers would act like this too. I came into the stream late, and felt really dissapointed in how Vaush was acting, but with context it's understandable. This is how abusive people manipulate the situation. And in no way am I calling Mel an abuser, but the way she was acting was manipulative as hell.
I wouldn't say manipulative. I'd say stupid. Not only are her ideas stupid, her way of convincing people of things is stupid, as well. She also gaslights the shit out of vaush the entire time about him being an asshole for just asking her to answer simple questions. I listened to the whole thing live and just wanted to throw my computer out the window it was so annoying to listen to.
I'm also seeing a ton of concern trolling around this one, it's wild. MFs really be like "I'm a long-time Vaush fan but I don't like how he treats debates as bloodsports" ???
Lol and what she actually seems to have a problem with is his taking these issues *seriously." She doesn't even seem to realize that a person could consider online advocacy could entail standards of ethical responsibility.
@@spicylemon6255 Eh, people probably consider 6-8 months "long time" now - I mean, Vaush is a relatively new content creator. I've been following Vaush since about January 2020, so when he was already toning down his meanness, but yeah old Vaush likely would have been quite a bit more aggressive than this.
@@henriquepacheco7473 I miss that old Vaush, it's why I kind of stopped hanging around in streams because there's not a comrade going for the jugular. There's just not the excitement of 2019 Vaush to me.
Me too, I'm genuinely so happy that I found Vaush's channel and he's patient enough to explain the context of these situations because I feel so stupid every time I cannot see how manipulative some people are
Honestly, until this video, I felt like Vaush was being really mean, then I realized that I'm actually just falling for abuser tactics again, which was a less than optimal way to realize that I haven't stopped falling for that shit after getting out of an abusive relationship.
Maybe we need a Manipulation/abusive language 101? In a similar vein of Politics 101, Rhetoric 101 etc. I'm surprised by how many people didn't pick up on these tactics Mel (even if subconsciously) used.
im also interested if destinys vid is worth watching (never watched him, and the debate is interesting to me cause i totally fell for her manipulation)
How can anyone say he was being mean? I can understand Vaush having contempt for her right from the beginning and rightfully so after all the misinformation she's spread about him.
My ex-boyfriend (yes, boyfriend) actually used to do this. Like, the whole "Oh so *I* am a bad person" thing at any criticism. Absolute nightmare to deal with people like this.
At first, I thought that analyzing this debate was a waste of time but it was definitely worth it. Really love your style and content Vaush. You’ve got a fan in northern Wisconsin.
I went into this video having not seen the original debate, only hearing about what happened on the subreddit. 30 minutes into the video and I gotta stop watching because the way she talked to Vaush here is genuinely triggering to me because it is exactly how abusers in my life have talked to me, right down to the "this isn't how normal people have conversations" thing. No Simp:tm: but big props to Vaush for standing up for himself here and not letting her get away with some of that.
Here's a tip for people who might have problem detecting manipulating behavior. When a person goes from a terrified -"oh why are you so mean to me?? " to a mocking, sarcastic "awww poor little you", they're attempting to manipulate you but neither emotion should be interpretered as being genuine
that tone of voice is literally the tone of voice my transfem friend makes when DMing and playing a manipulative asshole in TTRPGs, there's no way it's just "frustrated"
27:42 - This angered me so bloody much, you lot have no idea. “Oh! So yOu aRe cAlliNg mE a nAzI!?” NO, MEL, HE ISNT. I KNOW YOU REALLY REALLY REALLY WANNA BE A VICTIM BEING ATTACKED BY VAUSH BAD, BUT FUCKING HELL.
I find it funny that she tells Vaush that he's acting like a child even though he was composed all throughout the convo and she, child-like, says that she wasn't paying attention and muted him.
Okay, I saw the original debate and thought it felt weird. I did think that Vaush came out looking bad but I obviously knew I was missing some context. So I went over her tweets, her history, and the context of what they were discussing. Holy crap, she is just a literally a genocide denier, if not a denier she really likes downplaying what is happening in China. In regards to what she likes to discuss, she takes the things that she says and what other people say on Twitter incredibly seriously. She is being incredibly dishonest
As a gay guy, I have hung out with way to many of them to know when someone is being disingenuous like she was being, all the changes of her voice, even live I could hear her doing it
I genuinely did not get the criticism. The only thing I can think of is that she wasn't as patently abhorrent in fae discourse, but fae underlying tactics and ideas are equally, if not more, dangerous than those from other tankies.
I still think Vaush went too hard to begin with, which made him look bad (at least in my eyes). He may have not been mad, but he sounded really mad to me. This was also really apparent to me from listening Vaush talk to the Canadian Nazi, he was way nicer to the Nazi right off the bat. (Just to clarify I'm not going to defend Mel or fae positions, since I don't agree with them. But I still think optically Vaush looked bad in the first part of the debate) Edit: I just remembered Mel uses neopronouns
@@ben76326 I had forgotten about the neopronoun, my bad. I don't recall Vaush being nicer to the Canadian Nazi, but I need to go back to the debate. Regardless, I think the difference between the Canadian Nazi and Mel is that Mel had a long history of bashing Vaush on Twitter, so I think Vaush was justifiably mad when she tried to weasel out of fae comments.
@@crro7942 No worries I wasn't calling you out, I was just fixing my own comment since I didn't use them in my original comment With the Canadian Nazi he came off more light hearted and jokey to begin with. (And made the Nazi look like a fool) Yeah that's fair. In that case I think he should have show cased some of fae tweets before the debate. RGR did it when debating a TERF, I thought it worked well. Since she could really hard on him. Since he tried to act really nice at first. But showing the tweets before hand, helped show that the TERF was acting in bad faith. Edit: neopronouns got me again. I really need to work on using them
@@ben76326 I think the reason people think he was nicer to the Canadian Nazi was because everybody pretty much understands that a person like that is wrong. When you debate a fellow "leftist" like Mel a lot of people get sucked into that self-descriptor and it takes them aback quite a bit when Vaush goes after them as hard as he did. That being said, I think Vaush's behavior was perfectly acceptable because tankies like Mel do much more harm to any sort of actual leftist movements than Nazis ever do. At least Nazis are mask off in how horrible their beliefs are.
Here’s the big issue I have with people thinking Mel was being mistreated. At any time if she felt offended or attacked, she could have disconnected the call. As I am a trans woman “of color” too (American Cherokee) and if I am being attacked (whether or not it’s real, I just feel like it’s happening) I will distance myself from the situation. She acts like a bully here, will constantly talk over him, and misrepresenting anything he says. And the whole thing of claiming that being a TWOC makes anything she says correct, and everything vaush says is wrong because he’s white
Being newer to political stuff and watching debates about it, watching him go back over it afterwards to explain what was happening is really helpful and I hope he does it more often.
I grew up with an abusive mother. That "yes/no" question bit made me hooooowl. From my experience manipulators will not answer yes/no questions with a straight yes or no. Because they know they're wrong and they'll look bad so they try to dodge by derailing and attacking the integrity of the question in the first place.
The “this doesn’t look good for you vaush” really sealed it for me. She got what she wanted from the whole discussion right there. The rest of the time all she has to do is pivot and refuse to answer anything else he says at this point. She just wanted the clip, and to avoid being clipped. This is why people hate politics.
we really need more of this kind of content. the way you explain manipulative behavior and break it down bit by bit is super eye opening. it reminds me of your shane dawson video from awhile ago. that video unironically saved me from an extremely abusive situation. i was in a friendship that took a turn for the worst and the stuff i learned from listening to you talk about how sick jokes are often signaling to something more helped me realize what was going on before it was too late. it not only taught me what the red flags were, but WHY you shouldn't ignore them. i can't even imagine what might have happened to me if i was still naïve and didn't pick up on what she was doing. as difficult as this debate with mel is to listen to, it's really nice to see you giving people the tools to recognize red flags in people
Imagine taking that same attitude towards twitter to real life relationships "listen, I know I called you a fuck face, but I was standing in the bathroom when I said it. Now we're in the bedroom, why would you bring up something I said in the bathroom. You know the bathroom is a dirty place, people can say anything in the bathroom" You know you're in for a shit show anytime someone pulls "it's just twitter" on you
I know this is a year late, but I appreciate Vaush walking through the convo like this. It’s kinda sad how dumb some of the comments are in the chat as he’s doing the critique.
12:20 I'm so fucking glad vaush says this because this was THE MOST INFURIATING part of the whole conversation. Whenever Mel was on the backfoot or caught out for saying something stupid, she put on her uwu voice (literally saying uwu talking about genocide) trying to use it as cover for her dogshit. I hate it. I hate when cutesy femininity is used as a cloak for people who can't explain themselves, it's insulting and it's misogynistic as fuck, especially coming from a trans woman. I'm really sensitive to it because it's so common, people back down all the time because they don't want to seem like a bully; people end up being tricked into walking back reasonable criticism because they don't want to upset a woman, and when a trans woman does it, it feels like deliberately using their disphoria as an additional layer
Mel’s dismissal of Vaush because of his whiteness reminds me of Viv in the big trans discussion when Vaush confronted her, then light her up for her double standards for him and Destiny. They’ll deny doing it and in the same breath start with “I just think it’s funny that a white....etc.”
What we've learned is that Vaush's chat is so pro trans, they're willing to show the same level of benevolent sexism they would to a trans woman they would to a cis woman.
Your analogy for abuser behavior about halfway through was absolutely bang on. Through highschool, I had a really emotionally abusive girlfriend who was a master of reeling me in just to push me back down with a pointed threat or insult.
People really don't notice just HOW abusive her behavior here is. She's being VERY manipulative, she gaslights like nobody's business, plays up empathy cards, etc.
The problem with ideologies on both the right and the left is that, the further into it you go, the more concerned you become with purity. The fringes have never been tolerant of any deviation from their narrow views.
I watched this debate yesterday. But stopped maybe 1/3rd in. Got this recommended to me today. I didn't stop because I was mad at Vaush, I stopped because Mel was so clearly disinterested in having a discussion and if she didn't want to be here why was I here? I can't believe people were upset at Vaush? What the hell?
Yeah so when I was in my late 20s I started to hook up with this 20 year old woman I met on fetlife. So me, 6'5" Master and her, super cute 5'0" girl who liked being thrown around in bed. I'd never been in an abusive relationship and in theory all the power dynamics were in my favour. But in 3 weeks my mental health utterly crumbled. Mel sounds like her in how she acts. Oh... I had been doubting myself but this woman told me in our last correspondence that she saw I was mentally ill and wanted to see if she could make me commit self die. If it was true or not I don't know but it was such a fucked up thing to say to someone I stopped doubting that it was abuse. This was like 10 years ago. These days there at least is some awareness given to men about red flags.
I think Mel is surrounded by a lot of "yes"-people. She gets her way and isn't used to be challenged so directly away from the comfort zone of Twitter. She really wanted to control the conversation, and I think Vaush was right to make sure she couldn't do that. Idk if she's actually abusive, but I do think she's spoiled. Edit: maybe she is abusive. Idk. But did anybody else notice how eager she was to impress the audience (and maybe even Vaush) with how knowledgeable she is? I think she really did want to get the Hakeem treatment and was bitter when she realized she was going to be called out on her shit.
Concerning the "impress the audience"... there is a famous phrase like "Stupid people will always share their knowledge about certain topics without being asked, as soon as the opportunity arises. The moments of silence are therefore statements for themselves."
Spoiled people can be abusive, often are, which makes sense, spoiled = self-centered and a lack of concern for others is pretty much the bedrock of emotional abuse.
This is actually a really good video on understanding gaslighting. I kind of noticed it towards the end of the call when it was live but going back with that context alone this shit is horrifically gaslighty
Intersectionality isn't "this person's white so their whiteness outweighs their other marginalization" intersectionality is "this person's white and despite also being gay they still benefit from white privilege and may have their views effected by not experiencing racial oppression" the former is literally just oppression olympics, Mel is talking about intersectionality like what conservatives think intersectionality is.
Wait it feels like Mel said the latter. Or she implied the latter
Both of these are dumb claims. Based on this we should believe Candace Owens because she isn't white and her lack of white privilege benefits her views. It's the same statement twice.
@@partychairman5882 The second is.. the one I agree with 🤨
@@vanmello1680 You may have noticed that I said the person's views MAY be influenced by their white privilege, Candace Owens isn't effected by white privilege but she's sure as hell effected by the money she gets for saying racist shit
@@theliberation9061 babe, for one; no one is denying that oppression tends to manifest differently in different countries. Sure, a lesbian from Cali is not as oppressed as a feminine man in East Europe but a lesbian in east Europe is probably not having a good time over there. Two, the idea of white privilege and bigotry against Eastern Europeans can and do coexist. Literally the definition of intersectionality. Eastern Europeans haven’t been assimilated into the concept of whiteness so they often face social barriers that other Europeans don’t, especially Romani people. I can believe that and also believe that white people in most western countries are given advantages other groups aren’t.
Mel: doesn't like when people use her identity against her
Mel: uses others' identities against them
She also user her identity against others :p
b-b-but she a t-trans woman of c-color!!!
This is so fucking true
@Rusty Shackleford does she have a poor understanding or is she deliberately warping history to fit her narrative? People like her lie about history all the time, especially about communist countries
@@kyla8386 I would argue that it's probably a mix of both, to be honest. In my own experience, poor understanding of history leads to jumping to conclusions about things, then soon enough that conclusion becomes established fact in your mind, and it becomes incredibly tough to undo when it's confronted by actual facts. Once you're believing things you've convinced yourself are true, it starts you down the road to revising history to suit your narratives and excising things you dislike or embellishing things you do like.
There is also just the simple desire to revise history to make your ideal country seem better and your hated country to seem worse, just as a propaganda tactic. 🤷♂️
“I don’t care about the Uyghur genocide because I can’t do anything about it”, is one of the most psychotic things I’ve heard. How anyone can defend her after that is crazy.
Yeah, that was a pretty disturbing thing of her to say. Neither I or Mel can stop other countries from committing atrocities, but we can *absolutely* have a moral stance about it. I can point at China killing Uyghurs or Myanmar killing Rohingya and say "that's not good."
You're taking her literally and not appreciating 'the nuance'.
Imagine how they would respond to that attitude towards Israel.
Vaush gave her a 100% out by saying she could say her twitter posts aren't meant to be taken seriously and the things she's said are indefensible but she couldn't do it.
true!!!!! "I'm not gonna defend the tweets cause lol it's just a meme bruh but also I am not going to disavow them because then my tankie mutuals will hate me." it's a joke when people press her on them, but she signals to her own crowd that she totally believes in all of it. totally fucking disingenuous, what a weasley shithead.
@@CecilyRenns but when Vowsh replaces tankies with Nazis she loses her shit lmao. It's a 1 to 1 comparison.
Too much of a fragile ego to engage in genuine self criticism. This is how you become a Tankie or a Nazi in the first place 🤷♂️
Technically, but not really. The way he phrased it made it pretty explicitly seem like it'd be an admission of defeat or unethical behavior. "It's just memes" is apparently her standard defense whenever someone tries to call her out on stream, and she even started off this session by making that argument, so the fact that she didn't take him up on it seems like an indication that she didn't see it as an out.
@@Anthropomorphic that’s because it’s a disingenuous defense
Mel says "anybody can say anything on Twitter"
My response: Exactly; why are these the things you decided to say if you could literally say anything
Damn, that's true! Good argument
Why not use those tweets to spread awareness about the atrocities committed by certain countries?
Oh wait, she doesn't get brownie points from fellow tankies for doing that.
Right like anyone can say anything on a livestream too best not take anything anyone says ever literally
I mean, I do think Mel should have left the call, because the tweet reviewing was pretty stupid. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it's necessary.
I actually think it would have been more effective for Vaush to ask questions about her ideology, while feigning amicability, and then use her tweets to demonstrate her hypocrisy.
But still it's her fault for being an idiot and not just leaving. If you don't want to talk about what the host is talking about just leave. Oh but that money. Haja
@@thatsinteresting3415 Wasn't it the tweets that prompted the conversation to begin with... Made sense to me if I understand this correctly.
Mel is so abusive, Vaush going over this and explaining that to his audience was incredibly cathartic and gratifying
It's very easy to excuse an abuser when you're being victimized by someone who is pretending to be the victim the whole time. I grew up with someone who did this to me constantly and every time I called her out she would turn it around on me saying I was being mean when she literally verbally and physically abused me and I didn't even retaliate. So yes, these tactics are really dangerous and harmful regardless of her intentions.
Okay the fact u are all saying this abuser shit I know vaush said it and you are all copying him. Pls stfu
@@claymusicoff5663 If it's wrong, then substantiate why rather than just telling people to shut up
@@claymusicoff5663 or maybe some of us have dealt with emotionally manipulative people and pick up on that kind of behavior
I hope her audience gets to see the breakdown
“I would NEVER defend what I say on Twitter”
*proceeds to defend what she said on Twitter*
honestly that was her biggest mistake that I saw (before I clicked off, so I missed her genocide apologism, but I believe people that it happened)
*proceeds to condemn what Vaush says on twitter*
But only poorly
@@ofanichan Mel is cringe
Mel wanted to keep her bad Twitter hot takes and eat them too; she couldn’t decide whether she wanted to say that they didn’t matter or if that they made legitimate points. If they really didn’t mean anything, she so easily could have said, “I don’t support the shit I say on Twitter,” like Vaush offered.
Funnily enough, this is a lot like how Nazi memes work. You present a claim in the form of a, “joke,” say that it shouldn’t be taken seriously, but then continue to insist that it made a good point. It’s doublethink.
From checking her twitter she seems to love denying genocide.
Genocide bad
Mel bad 🥺
Genocide bad 😉
@Tariq Nasheed Bro what are you even talking about
@Tariq Nasheed Are you afraid the womz will come for you if you actually type "Feminist?"
Damn less than five minutes in and she’s already using abuser tactics. “Why does it upset you?” He’s not upset at all? He’s questioning something you said?
And also, it wouldn't matter if he were upset, because you can't determine the merit of a person's line of reasoning based on their emotional state--Which has always been a thing reactionaries overwhelmingly fail to understand.
i mean, vaush says shit like that in every debate... not to say its not bad, but
@@merlin3427 The difference between what Vaush usually does and this is that if you try to use your emotional state as your argument "I am angry so you are wrong" then you can be discredited for it. But when you give a completely independent argument while being angry then your emotional state can't be used as a weapon against your argument. Now he might have done the same in videos that I haven't watched, but then again, I'm not a Vaush expert
Abuser tactics? I'm getting a sense that many of yall don't know how to have conversations with others.
If she hit him or insulted him and then said "why are you upset," then it would be abusive. Just assuming he's upset bc he finds her statement contentious is not abusive lmao.
I think its really weird that you would say someone is abusive bc she assumed that Vaush was upset bc he disagreed with a part of her statement or said something negative about it. (Had to edit this paragraph it didn't make sense before)
Prolly still better if she asked "why do you disagree," but it's not like everyone on the debate floor has super great convo skills, most people say things as careless as they can get away with, but now its abuse if you say it a nice voice or something?
@@SLYKM You know a good number of people who verbally abuse and gaslight others *genuinely* believe they're not trying to do any harm, right?
mel is the personification of that “gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss” meme
Lmaoooooooo
oh god you're so right
Everything people hate about liberals in physical form.
@@Israel-nb7ip true she is abusive and very cringe
true
as someone who has dealt with manipulative family members, her tone and tactics set me off, having to watch this in small bursts
Low key Narc vibes...
THAT WAS THE SAME FOR ME. i talked about it on twitter and she literally responded and first apologized for me having been abused then going on to say i don’t know what abuse is
Damn, I had to deal with a former friend who acted and talked just like Mel (the tones and attitude) and this made me feel so angry towards Mel.
same, i literally had to stop and watch something else after like 20 min
@@f1shf1st I wouldn't be surprised she physically abuses her partners too and then tells them 'You made me do that.'
Literally the entire discussion was her trying to gaslight, deflect, and absolve herself of responsibility. And even if she hadn't done that, she still deserved to be treated like the piece of shit genocide denier that she is.
I legitimately do not understand anyone who was on her side, even during the actual discussion. Tankies bad.
Because uwu cute trans girl cant be bad
I commented on the original video that it was different from how Vaush usually opens debates. He usually gives chat some background on who a person is or gives the guest room to hang themselves before going guns blazing. I had no idea who Mel was before the video (I’m not on Twitter), so it took a little bit before I got the full scope of how terrible she is. I think the anger was justified but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little taken off guard at first by how quickly it started
@@poodlekissesreborn3948 He did offer some background on her in the full vod leading up to the debate. I can see how someone might have been confused from just watching the debate video, but I was irritated almost immediately with her behavior when Vaush wanted to go over the tweets.
@@socialist_vocalist yeah I have the same feeling. I didn't watch the stream, I don't really know who Mel is, but by virtue of her Tweets, and her being incapable of either defending them or disavowing them, she revealed herself to be a bad person, honestly. She reaffirmed continually throughout the debate, my belief, that she is as bad as her Twitter feed is.
It could also be that I'm already quite biased against tankies just because of their general beliefs already, but again, Mel 100% reinforced the beliefs I have here honestly.
@@socialist_vocalist u don’t see that this is a way different standard than he treated other genocide deniers??
More debate reviews like this please. I have an abstract understanding of manipulative behavior, but I have a hard time even noticing it in real time. Going through and pointing it out like this is genuinely informative.
Same here, I can never notice it when it happens and then I feel this gut reaction of sympathy but then when it's pointed out it feels so obvious.
Very true, it’s not hard to get the feeling that something is wrong, but it is harder to clarify exactly what is giving you that feeling. And it’s even harder to notice and respond to it when it’s being done to you in real time. This is a very helpful case study in identifying manipulative behavior.
Bu-but cute lady say uWu 🥺
Genocide is bad, uwu!
@@TurtleChad1 Can i take you home and feed you lettuce? Or, like, fascist blood? Or whatever else it is turtles eat? I really like turtles and tortoises and want one as a pet.
wait is she even cute tho
I've seen her she ain't that cute haha
@@ksilva2848 nah she's definitely a hon lmfao
The amount of Idpol she tired to pull in that debate was truly insufferable.
And then try to argue that it wasn’t idpol when she was called out on it every single time. She never actually had an argument for why, either, so she always tried to just pivot as quickly as possible.
Communists go neoliberal, full circle.
Completely agree. Liberal idpol is so god damn annoying and almost single-handedly drove me to the anti-SJW right-wing wave for a little
25:58
'How red does a flag have to get'
*CCP NATIONAL AMTHEM BLARES*
@@Gbnation1 Same here
"This isn't how normal people talk" was the first omega yikes red flag from her that i noticed. straight up abuser language, dehumanizing your opponent by appealing to normalcy.
And Vaush is autistic too so she's being ableist.
also super duper ableist, just a straight up attack against Vaush for having a cadence/way of wording things that's pretty typical of certain autistic people (like me!)
really? you're doing exactly what she and her ilk do with this comment. There was nothing "yikesy" about that comment. She just made bad arguments cause she believes dumb things. Nothing she said was aBuSeR lAnGuAgE
Definitely ableist. But tbh, I didn't notice anything abnormal about how he was talking. I think she was frustrated and grabbing at straws. She had nothing
@@botanicalitus4194 That was absolutely abuser language dude you've never been in an abusive relationship if you can't recognize that shit. Abusers constantly start shit and when you call them out on it and get angry with them they'll say "wow you're acting so irrational rn" "no normal person acts like this" which is exactly what she told vaush while his autism was flaring up mind you
I don't even understand who are the people actually supporting her when she's been so disingenuous and bad faith from the start.
losers
I don't know who she is and still don't really know the context of the discussion on twitter that took place, but it honestly just looks ugly to me. I think Vaush's approach here prevented any sort of substantive critique of her position by putting her on the defensive in a way that boxed her in rather than by feeding in agreeable statements until a substantive point of critique could be located. Who even is this lady?
I know who. Cause they attacked me for a comment. They legit think Vaush is a fascist with psychopaths as followers and is capitalism embodied, determined to trample an Asian trans person.
It's crazy. They live in some sort of constructed narrative. This is Trump all over but on the left
@@AlextheBant I dunno, I feel like there's a sort of uncharitability here that does arise from differences in psychology that aren't really served by the format of discussion Vaush used in a live format. I think Vaush would have been better served by being far more charitable, to get to the substance of the argument (the actual text in contention) before dismissing their substance so aggressively. I think a lot of these bad takes that come from lefties on social media is the result of a lack of direct communication, and when we enter into discussion with preformed biases created over social media rather than to highlight and demonstrate the validity of those biases through direct conversation, we do a disservice to ourselves and to the broader left.
Iono, I just feel like social media has made us all too aggro, and we all should take accountability for it.
@@danielheflin6658 I would agree with you, if discussing with these people wasn't just as impossible as discussing with flat earthers.
Vaush wasn't given much choice here. She twisted and turned around every subject and evaded every direct question. It's complete bad faith.
I tried discussing things with her followers. Apart from dogpiling onto me and literally inventing a narrative and twisting history, it was completely impossible to talk.
They are convinced China is good and NK is too. They are convinced Vaush is a pedo fascist and they won't step out of their narrative cause they are not interested in truth.
You can't discuss in good faith with people who refuse to engage in the same system of logic
There's always some shouting over each other in these debates but I noticed that Mel seems to be shouting over Vaush not to compete w him to make her own points like people normally are, but to simply drown out his speech and distract from what he's saying. It's pathetic
i swear with how often she talked over him he probably only got out like 5 complete sentences
Kind like people of certain other very non-leftist political affiliations tend to do, huh?
I appreciate that Vaush can just continue his questions undeterred when he gets interrupted. I'd probably finish about
Yaaaah
bruh 50% of all shouting on vaush stream is just "UP UP AHHH UHHH UUHHH UOOOOHHH NOOOO UHHH" dont pretend
When Abuse victims are mentioning that her tone reminded them of their abusers you know she was acting in bad faith.
you are literally just sociopathic for saying this.
@@descieuxx Troll harder.
@@descieuxx How was that in anyway, Sociopathic?
@@coryfice1881 I watched the debate live and she acted like my abusive mother the whole time so I never had any sympathy for her. I was shocked to see so many people pushing back on Vaush afterwards, just because she has the uwu voice.
@@artisticcannibalism1350 Shouting down an abuse victim, to the point of her being close to tears telling him to tone down and then claiming "serves her right" is not sociopathic? I though we as leftists are supposed to be compassionate. It is very telling though that you care about the blood sport aspect of all this. Not seeing the obvious and almost ridiculous power imbalance here is also telling of your social skills.
The "awww i’m sorry this hurt you" mocking voice she did made my blood boil and I think you handled it so well
It should be a sin lmao
It genuinely felt like emotional @bus3....
"most people do not have the skills necessary to recognise when they are being fucked with" TRUUUUUUUUUUUE. I didn't realise my abuser was doing until they tried throwing a table at me for asking how I could help them.
Anyone who has been in an abusive relationship, whether it be physical or emotional abuse could see straight through this chick.
Yep. I wish I would've realized sooner, but I had no idea what gaslighting was at the time.
Wait, is it not normal for people to get irritated at you for asking how you can help them?
Legitimately asking, because someone in my life does it all the time and I'm not sure what to think of that
Edit: obviously throwing a table is more than just being irritated, but general principle
@@nico6143 i mean there's a lot of different reasons someone could be annoyed, annoyance doesn't equal abusive or manipulative imo.
Throwing a TABLE
Vaush: **Attacks the ideas and arguments Mel gave**
Mel: PEOPLE SAY THINGS THEY DON'T MEAN ON TWITTER, THEY MEME THEY SHITPOST.
Vaush: Okay, then how about we go through and YOU tell me what you meant?
Mel: Sure!!
Vaush: **does the thing she asked him to**
Mel: NORMAL PEOPLE DON'T DO THIS VAUSH, WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME WHAT I MEANT BY THE THINGS I SAY, THIS ISN'T HOW NORMAL PEOPLE TALK!
(side note: That is 100% ableist, and abusive, it's straight up gaslighting. Making you think you're insane for trying to make her defend her positions.)
She is cringe and a tankie so extra cringe
I could tell Mel was trying to throw herself a pity party
she proceeded to do exactly that on twitter. you should see how her friends were coddling her "oh you poor poor thing you were victimized by the big bad ciswhitemale Vowsh"
69 likes.......nice
Vaush stressing about twitch TOS was the funniest shit ever.
"in minecraft"
Even funnier that he doesn't even know stuff like "simp" is only against TOS if used to to degrade someone's actual sexual life - not even their behaviour.
@@problematist2 that’s not that funny
Honestly I have no idea what the "🥺" face in Mel's tweets is supposed to communicate to me. Like, she used it *so* often, and right after someone asking what - to me, at least - seemed like a sincere question. Is it sarcastic, or does she actually think I'm so stupid that using an emoji will distract me from the fact she hasn't answered? Either way it reads like an insult.
she uses abuser tactics and constantly gets away with "I'm a cute girl why are you being mean?!"... so that emoji is just her translating the same thing into text form.
Essentially yeah, that's the uwu stop being Meeean to me face
it gives the impression that she is mocking the uyghur genocide in my opinion.
you know how in the shrek movies, puss in boots will take his hate off and pull an OwO cute kitten face to distract from how dangerous he is? its that, but on twitter being done by a sociopath.
This UwU deflecting and blame-shifting is exactly what my shitty ex used to do. Really sad to see chat falling for blatant abuse tactics.
Same. Ex was a lot more aggressive first, then did the whole thing like a wrestler hitting a dude with a chair behind a ref's back and then doing the hands up/drop chair 'i didn't do anything, he fell into the chair' routine to the ref when they turn around and see them going for a second shot.
So you're gonna make me look bad by forcing me to answer very clearly yes or no to a very specific question thus revealing what I've been dancing around for the past fifteen minutes???? That's cheating no fair
Yeah, idk has vaush ever done this before?? Wtf is this yes or no format.
@@claymusicoff5663 I think Mel has a history of reacting remarkably strongly to yes or no questions, which Vaush alluded to at various points. I guess it's a common tactic people use with her because she has a reputation for, in Dylan Burns' words, "never committing to anything".
@@Anthropomorphic I noticed that near the end she would very often disagree with Vaush, then restate his point with some more info added on.
But when asked "does this added info contradict my point", she said no.
So essentially she was agreeing with him, but categorically incapable of admitting it.
I'm fairly certain anyone who can't start with Yes or No and then qualifying their Yes or No, or can at least ask for qualification for the yes or no if they're unclear but instead starts going off on some other tangent or 'that's silly', even against JLP, is or is attempting to be dishonest. Even when JLP asks, 'Do you love black people?', just say yes. Then say, 'Except Jeff, Jeff has poor fashion taste and I won't extend my heart to him until he stops wearing those ugly palm tree print polo shirts.'. Or whatever.
based pfp
I hate how much leeway twitch chat was trying to give Mel. She was manipulative throughout the entire debate and i wish twitch chat would be better about catching her tone of voice. Sounds like we really need to teach your audience about manipulation tactics in debate.
the whole point of manipulation tactics is to make people take their side, so it's not a surprise folk fell for it - that's legit the entire reason for these tactics
people need to be careful with this kind of shit
Honestly his chat has always been kind of dumb. They are far too easily swayed on so many things, and often don't actually think about what they're hearing. They rely on intuition far too often.
@@Crawver most people don't spend time really delving into what's being talked about, i'm afraid - that's just life, and true of all chats in existence
as fun as it would be to dunk on folk for not being as smart as my big brained ass or whatever, i understand that most people have better things to do than to critically think about this stuff
(or at least they think they do, which leads to the same thing)
a lot of folk listen passively and follow whomever seemed the "strongest", which is okay as long as that means they end up supporting the left in the end
so here's hoping the bloodsports end in more victories for vaush than defeats, eh?
I think we can be critical of Mel and also of vaush. Mel is a piece of shit, yes, but vaush wasn't great either in this, at all. I hate how he denies any responsibility in how he treats her, and that is justified, when it's not. We can be critical of Mel and also say that what vaush did is not the best
@@robilotte11 He treated her exactly as she deserved, with her weaslly self-infantilising bullshit.
Just cause she's all uwu widdle me doesn't mean you treat her any softer than anyone else who comes on, that's some sexist fuckery
This woman is seriously the new Lily Orchard with how manipulative and gaslighty she is, except I don’t think even Lily Orchard was this fake-cutesy or a genocide denier.
Yeah, Lily at least was pretty up front about how she's kind of a dickhead. Like she is still a PoS, but at least doesn't try to hide it under a veneer of cutesy tone.
I thought it was Lily Orchard for a second with how abusive and gaslighty she acted
Behind the curve, what's the drama with Lily?
@@youdoyouidome7452 Lily got on Vaush’s channel a while back for making a really spiteful, dishonest, gaslighty, and flagrantly jealous video about Contrapoints.
@@youdoyouidome7452 I recall Vaush dubbed her one of the few, actual, SJW's. Gets enraged about Steven universe and She-ra when they are literally some of the most progressive shows ever.
lol holy shit "why does that upset you" and just the general tone & tactics Mel uses are straight up verbal/emotional abuse tactics. literally sounds exactly like my abusive ex of 5 years lmfaooo this is wild wtf
Why are all of you saying this stupid shit. Mel isn’t in a relationship with him. Wtf does sounding like a abuser mean??
@@claymusicoff5663 Bad Faith. Manipulation To Garner Audience Sympathy & To Passively Command Vaush' Silence/Subservience Through Gaslighting & Victimization Through Positioning Herself As A Victim Simply Bc She's Being Called On Her Shit.
@@claymusicoff5663 Literally anyone who has dealt with an emotionally manipulative person knows what this means. Watching this debate gave me flashbacks. Lmfao
she responded to people saying this by saying "well I went through abuse" basically. Shit's insane.
@@suo745 Ah yes, the classic "I was abused too" line from abusers, so good
This unironically was one of the most based performances you've had in your career, don't let *anyone* say otherwise.
Try to explain that to Kavernacle.
@@martinsriber7760 wh OMEGALUL ?
@@martinsriber7760 Wait, what does Kavernacle have to do with this now?
it was pretty good til vaush made that “black gay trans woman in a wheelchair” joke. i like vaush but that joke was so cringe
What is the point of using unironically in this comment lmao I feel like Vaush overuses the shit outta that word
People need to understand that just because a person isn’t shouting doesn’t mean they’re not being aggressive.
Quiet tone doesn’t equal not mean.
It’s crazy that you even have to mention that lol
@@d-extra5814 pov witnessing abusing getting their way with a percentage of people
okay but what was mean tho? Aside from *her* rhetorical treatment of genocide victims
@@theliberation9061 I would say. He made a whole video to make her look like a manipulator? 🤨 "DO I SOUND MAD?" as he sounded like he was seething even though he wasn't loud dafuq
@@theliberation9061 YES. THIS. This is such a huge god damn point that everyone is missing!!! And when you don't react the way they want you to, they start to lose their shit!
I couldn't figure out why the argument wasn't going anywhere the whole time. I just kept asking "what does she actually believe in?" then I realized that was the point. Hella sketchy.
"Have you organized?... I'm just curious" she says, directly after Vaush sardonically question's Mel's "physical" advocacy...
Awe don't be mean to the person who made fun of genocide 🥺. The vanguard class is going to UwU their way into complete class consciousness and can't handle meanies.
I’ve dealt with abusers like her, it was kinda chilling to hear this in a debate
People like her are disgusting and do not deserve any sympathy, thank you for pointing out the double standard and calling out these people
@GraveSinger I got in a “debate” with one on Twitter yesterday and they’re just larping as 1945 soviets at this point, felt like i slipped into an au when they said shooting children is ok and Stalin did nothing wrong
@GraveSinger and these are people pretending to be on the left and calling everyone else a nazi... advocating for firing squads to be used again
@@theliberation9061 100% they’re fascists, it’s beyond disgusting they keep calling themselves leftists when they are basically indistinguishable from actual neo nazis and use the same rhetoric
@GraveSinger does sado masochism have sub genres because this would be one of them, but like there’s no pleasure it’s just all horrible agony as you subject yourself to endless tankie rhetoric
SQUADW BOIS
I thought Vaush was being too mean in the beginning but once she went genocide was a 'fun meme uwu'. I just thought she is just straight up evil.
I noticed her dishonesty right from the start with how she refused to answer basic questions. People need to understand that just because a person is passive, doesn’t mean they’re not abusive.
@@NatsumiTakanawa This, it's like people only listen to the tone and not the actual content.
@@NatsumiTakanawa I think it'd have helped if he'd prefaced the debate with some background on Mel. I also didn't know what I got into so I watched Dylan's video instead. Doesn't mean Vaush was wrong, of course.
yeah i didn’t know too much about her background and so i was like ??? why r u freaking out about twitter but then i got it lol
@@LyricalDJ Yeah, his video would work better if he had added a short "Here's who Mel is" section before it.
Every time that Mel put on that fucking UwU voice, I got chills down my spine. Every time, my thought process was the same. “Oh, this is someone who is trying to manipulate me and they’re very good at it. This is not someone to be trusted. We’re back *here* again.”
Yuppp. Nails on chalkboard for me, every single time it happened I tensed up. The next thought that goes through my head is "this person can't admit the Uighur genocide is happening." I don't get less tense from there.
@@runakinsley3450 Three years ago, that act would’ve worked on me exactly how she wanted it to. Unfortunately for her, I’m not as stupid as I was three years ago anymore.
@@comandantegorrion7271 Nearly worked on me for a hot minute, but I managed to shake out of it.
Honestly props to Vaush for being able to keep his cool. I would’ve lost it on her the first time she did that because, at least to me, it’s so obvious and it just ignites a rage in me to know that she thinks she’s getting away with it too.
Honestly, what the hell is "UwU" voice? I'm not a native speaker, so some of the phrases are off for me.
I moderate on a pretty big trans community discord, so cutesy "ruwule bweaking" is something I see through. When watching this I first got the impression,"man, vaush does _not_ like this person, I wonder if that's justified?" 20 minutes in I'm convinced it is
I didn't mean to bweak the ruwules
🥺👉👈
this unironically started me on my 'journey' to standing up to my abusive friend.
Congrats, hope your doing well.
Anyone impuning Vaush for his treatment of her, just link to her convo with DylanBurns. She treats him the same way and dodges the entire time.
Which DylanBurn video is that?
Also, isn't Mel trying to have it both ways with her "well it's Twitter, who cares" and right after trying to defend the "lol of course a white dude would say this" comment? Tbh when people say that shit the response should be: "so, if you think that because I don't have THAT experience of oppression I will NEVER be able to understand your issue? In that case we can't even have a conversation on this. If instead you think you can make me understand, then make me understand".
She also claimed multiple times she'll clarify her positions on things, but when asked to clarify she says the equivalent of "lol no". It's fucking disgusting.
@@frapseddatsht "Just ask me my opinions on things!" "No, not like that!"
very interesting video - would love more like this!
Your here?
Never thought I'd see one of my favourite Pokémon RUclipsrs in the comments of a Vaush video 😂
@@carlocousins9714 I'm not sure they are, that comment smells of automation. 'would love more like this'? Like, all Vaush does is watch and debate and explain things and people found on the internet....lol 'Would love more vaush talking into a microphone videos!' lol
@@heavysystemsinc. think you might be reading too far into it dude. DistantKingdom has posted several comments on Vaush's videos, some of them very specific and critical of Vaush's arguments.
@@carlocousins9714 If I'm wrong, my bad. That comment was just amazingly vague! lol :)
Vaush arguing with men: "WAIT! WAIT! WAIT! WAIT! WAIT! *insert finishing argument here*
Chat: *doesn't care*
Vaush arguing with Mel: "wait, mel. *insert argument here*
Chat: "wow that was rude vaush"
JFC I'm going to kill myself EDIT in minecraft fr I'm fine
Mel was already irritating enough but the chat fucking did it for me
@Ashley’s Animation Kingdom that's kinda true I think. He is still a tiny bit politer to cis women than men but I do agree he is even more polite to trans women.
Has he talked to a trans man at any point? No hate I'm genuinely curious if he has. I don't think there is enough perspective of their life. I could be wrong tho on that too. Anyone legit feel free to educate me as well if I am.
It was because vaush was being confrontational because she was being a dumb fuck but her smooth brain was unable to reciprocate the aggression so it left vaush perpetuatealy calling her bullshit which after a time starts to look bad. Maybe if vaush just muted her and pointed out all the dumb shit in a more playful tone he could look better but fundamentally nothing would change.
chat is braindead in other news water is wet
Those people are from hasans community
Vaush watching Vaush watching Vaush playing Bloodborne is truly the peak of human evolution.
We need Vaush watching Vaush watching Vaush playing Bloodborne
I very much appreciate this, I fell for her tactics and will very much keep this debate in mind when I get into future debates!
Mel was horribly bad faith in this debate.
Honestly I feel like Vaush kinda jumped the gun too, but Mel was definitely worse
@Tariq Nasheed debate him then??
@Tariq Nasheed
Suuuuurrrrre.
@@WitherRakdos she's a genocide denier, Vaush does this to neonazis all the time and no one cares
@@natethegreatest1000 Ignore him, he is psyop.
Hello Comrades. These are some friendly reminders from your neighborhood non-binary commie:
- Drink plenty of water, at least 3 cups today
- have you eaten today? remember to do that please
- are you binding/tucking? make sure you give yourself a break!
- please remember that you are loved
- even if you don’t love yourself, I love you, you are completely valid, and you matter
- get good sleep
- meditate for at least 15 minutes daily
- and don’t forget to take your meds if you need to!!
have a good day
You have a good day too!
And thanks for reminding me about my meds haha
thx m8
I'd like to add one (that's relevant to this video as well): Identify toxic people and if possible, cut them out of your life. Narcissistic people especially, If it's family and hard to get away, learn how to deflect their verbal assaults, not combat them (that makes it worse) Have a good day, comrades!
@@123sleepygamer Very, very true and relevant. Thank you for adding this
15 minutes a day eh? I find I can get by on 10
Her post after made it seem like she was some sort of victim afterward.
She has a total disconnect between her mistreatment of people on Twitter versus how her arguments are treated.
I actually really prefer this form of content. It feels like having guard rails so that I don't have to just sit and listen to the manipulative crying of an abuser.
I can confirm as a victim of emotional abuse that the red flags vaush pointed out are absolutely real, and they actually made it really hard to sit through this.
27:42 “So...I am now a neo-nazi...”
This is there where I fucking wheezed. Bad faith argument nullification attempt 101 😂
Chat was so frustrating in this debate
@Roberta Mohamedally yeah lol chat is always infested with these types during tankie debates
Mel is familiar to me, not because we have ever talked, but because my ex-abusers would act like this too. I came into the stream late, and felt really dissapointed in how Vaush was acting, but with context it's understandable. This is how abusive people manipulate the situation. And in no way am I calling Mel an abuser, but the way she was acting was manipulative as hell.
I wouldn't say manipulative. I'd say stupid. Not only are her ideas stupid, her way of convincing people of things is stupid, as well. She also gaslights the shit out of vaush the entire time about him being an asshole for just asking her to answer simple questions. I listened to the whole thing live and just wanted to throw my computer out the window it was so annoying to listen to.
I'm also seeing a ton of concern trolling around this one, it's wild.
MFs really be like "I'm a long-time Vaush fan but I don't like how he treats debates as bloodsports"
???
It's a pretty old internet tactic trolls have used since the early days of the internet.
Lol and what she actually seems to have a problem with is his taking these issues *seriously." She doesn't even seem to realize that a person could consider online advocacy could entail standards of ethical responsibility.
Old Vaush would have been way meaner to her you can tell they aren’t old fans.
@@spicylemon6255 Eh, people probably consider 6-8 months "long time" now - I mean, Vaush is a relatively new content creator. I've been following Vaush since about January 2020, so when he was already toning down his meanness, but yeah old Vaush likely would have been quite a bit more aggressive than this.
@@henriquepacheco7473 I miss that old Vaush, it's why I kind of stopped hanging around in streams because there's not a comrade going for the jugular. There's just not the excitement of 2019 Vaush to me.
I'm disappointed to say that in the first quarter of the debate I almost fell for the "uwu don't get angwy at me for genocide deniawl" tactics
Me too, I'm genuinely so happy that I found Vaush's channel and he's patient enough to explain the context of these situations because I feel so stupid every time I cannot see how manipulative some people are
Honestly, until this video, I felt like Vaush was being really mean, then I realized that I'm actually just falling for abuser tactics again, which was a less than optimal way to realize that I haven't stopped falling for that shit after getting out of an abusive relationship.
It’s all about growth, and sometimes it takes a slap in the face to realize that. Recognizing it now means you can be proactive in the future.
Maybe we need a Manipulation/abusive language 101? In a similar vein of Politics 101, Rhetoric 101 etc.
I'm surprised by how many people didn't pick up on these tactics Mel (even if subconsciously) used.
24:35 Ah, good.
all disco elysium stats 101
I can’t believe I’m about to watch this dumpster fire for a third time. (Live, Destiny Review, This)
wait, destiny reviewed this debate? do you have a link?
@@MostlySoftware He just did it on stream. It's the one running right now.
There was a Destiny review? *buckles in for the third viewing*
Can someone give a general summary of destiny’s take?
im also interested if destinys vid is worth watching (never watched him, and the debate is interesting to me cause i totally fell for her manipulation)
As someone who is really not good at noticing the kind of shit that Mel pulled (and have fallen for it a lot IRL), thank you for going over this.
How can anyone say he was being mean? I can understand Vaush having contempt for her right from the beginning and rightfully so after all the misinformation she's spread about him.
Exactly. The ball was in her court to make it right here. Nothing was owed.
Hearing the Abuser tactics in here made this debate unironically one of the most uncomfortable debates I sat through
I couldn’t sit through the whole thing. Made my skin crawl too much. People like this genuinely creep me the fuck out.
My ex-boyfriend (yes, boyfriend) actually used to do this. Like, the whole "Oh so *I* am a bad person" thing at any criticism. Absolute nightmare to deal with people like this.
I had an ex gf do that to me. She would do it to turn my family and friends against me just to continously isolate me from anyone but her.
At first, I thought that analyzing this debate was a waste of time but it was definitely worth it. Really love your style and content Vaush. You’ve got a fan in northern Wisconsin.
I went into this video having not seen the original debate, only hearing about what happened on the subreddit. 30 minutes into the video and I gotta stop watching because the way she talked to Vaush here is genuinely triggering to me because it is exactly how abusers in my life have talked to me, right down to the "this isn't how normal people have conversations" thing. No Simp:tm: but big props to Vaush for standing up for himself here and not letting her get away with some of that.
We've finally caught witness of the elusive Triple Vaush, thought to only come out when the stars align
Here's a tip for people who might have problem detecting manipulating behavior. When a person goes from a terrified -"oh why are you so mean to me?? " to a mocking, sarcastic "awww poor little you", they're attempting to manipulate you but neither emotion should be interpretered as being genuine
A lot of people need to internalize this comment
Thank you
She rivals the Australian guy from the Killstream debate in terms of unlikability.
So cowardly and dishonest.
that tone of voice is literally the tone of voice my transfem friend makes when DMing and playing a manipulative asshole in TTRPGs, there's no way it's just "frustrated"
She refuses to be held accountable for anything she says. What a PoS
27:42 - This angered me so bloody much, you lot have no idea.
“Oh! So yOu aRe cAlliNg mE a nAzI!?” NO, MEL, HE ISNT. I KNOW YOU REALLY REALLY REALLY WANNA BE A VICTIM BEING ATTACKED BY VAUSH BAD, BUT FUCKING HELL.
People who defended Mel are falling for abuser tactics and they need to make sure they don't in the future.
Yeah, seeing all those folks behavior made me realize how extremely easily they could get into those situations
I find it funny that she tells Vaush that he's acting like a child even though he was composed all throughout the convo and she, child-like, says that she wasn't paying attention and muted him.
The first time round, watching this debate 🤦♂️ it was just so funny how gaslighty she is.
Okay, I saw the original debate and thought it felt weird. I did think that Vaush came out looking bad but I obviously knew I was missing some context. So I went over her tweets, her history, and the context of what they were discussing. Holy crap, she is just a literally a genocide denier, if not a denier she really likes downplaying what is happening in China. In regards to what she likes to discuss, she takes the things that she says and what other people say on Twitter incredibly seriously. She is being incredibly dishonest
As a gay guy, I have hung out with way to many of them to know when someone is being disingenuous like she was being, all the changes of her voice, even live I could hear her doing it
I genuinely did not get the criticism. The only thing I can think of is that she wasn't as patently abhorrent in fae discourse, but fae underlying tactics and ideas are equally, if not more, dangerous than those from other tankies.
I still think Vaush went too hard to begin with, which made him look bad (at least in my eyes). He may have not been mad, but he sounded really mad to me. This was also really apparent to me from listening Vaush talk to the Canadian Nazi, he was way nicer to the Nazi right off the bat.
(Just to clarify I'm not going to defend Mel or fae positions, since I don't agree with them. But I still think optically Vaush looked bad in the first part of the debate)
Edit: I just remembered Mel uses neopronouns
@@ben76326 I had forgotten about the neopronoun, my bad. I don't recall Vaush being nicer to the Canadian Nazi, but I need to go back to the debate. Regardless, I think the difference between the Canadian Nazi and Mel is that Mel had a long history of bashing Vaush on Twitter, so I think Vaush was justifiably mad when she tried to weasel out of fae comments.
@@crro7942 No worries I wasn't calling you out, I was just fixing my own comment since I didn't use them in my original comment
With the Canadian Nazi he came off more light hearted and jokey to begin with. (And made the Nazi look like a fool)
Yeah that's fair. In that case I think he should have show cased some of fae tweets before the debate. RGR did it when debating a TERF, I thought it worked well. Since she could really hard on him. Since he tried to act really nice at first. But showing the tweets before hand, helped show that the TERF was acting in bad faith.
Edit: neopronouns got me again. I really need to work on using them
@@ben76326 Yeah, I agree. I thought he was going to do it before the debate but he was derailed.
@@ben76326 I think the reason people think he was nicer to the Canadian Nazi was because everybody pretty much understands that a person like that is wrong. When you debate a fellow "leftist" like Mel a lot of people get sucked into that self-descriptor and it takes them aback quite a bit when Vaush goes after them as hard as he did.
That being said, I think Vaush's behavior was perfectly acceptable because tankies like Mel do much more harm to any sort of actual leftist movements than Nazis ever do. At least Nazis are mask off in how horrible their beliefs are.
Here’s the big issue I have with people thinking Mel was being mistreated. At any time if she felt offended or attacked, she could have disconnected the call. As I am a trans woman “of color” too (American Cherokee) and if I am being attacked (whether or not it’s real, I just feel like it’s happening) I will distance myself from the situation. She acts like a bully here, will constantly talk over him, and misrepresenting anything he says.
And the whole thing of claiming that being a TWOC makes anything she says correct, and everything vaush says is wrong because he’s white
Being newer to political stuff and watching debates about it, watching him go back over it afterwards to explain what was happening is really helpful and I hope he does it more often.
I grew up with an abusive mother. That "yes/no" question bit made me hooooowl. From my experience manipulators will not answer yes/no questions with a straight yes or no. Because they know they're wrong and they'll look bad so they try to dodge by derailing and attacking the integrity of the question in the first place.
The “this doesn’t look good for you vaush” really sealed it for me. She got what she wanted from the whole discussion right there. The rest of the time all she has to do is pivot and refuse to answer anything else he says at this point. She just wanted the clip, and to avoid being clipped. This is why people hate politics.
we really need more of this kind of content. the way you explain manipulative behavior and break it down bit by bit is super eye opening. it reminds me of your shane dawson video from awhile ago. that video unironically saved me from an extremely abusive situation. i was in a friendship that took a turn for the worst and the stuff i learned from listening to you talk about how sick jokes are often signaling to something more helped me realize what was going on before it was too late. it not only taught me what the red flags were, but WHY you shouldn't ignore them. i can't even imagine what might have happened to me if i was still naïve and didn't pick up on what she was doing. as difficult as this debate with mel is to listen to, it's really nice to see you giving people the tools to recognize red flags in people
She legit says “uwu” after saying some dumb shit in This debate at certain points
He treated her the exact same way as he treats everyone else he has on. Chat is being weird like always
Imagine taking that same attitude towards twitter to real life relationships
"listen, I know I called you a fuck face, but I was standing in the bathroom when I said it. Now we're in the bedroom, why would you bring up something I said in the bathroom. You know the bathroom is a dirty place, people can say anything in the bathroom"
You know you're in for a shit show anytime someone pulls "it's just twitter" on you
I know this is a year late, but I appreciate Vaush walking through the convo like this. It’s kinda sad how dumb some of the comments are in the chat as he’s doing the critique.
12:20 I'm so fucking glad vaush says this because this was THE MOST INFURIATING part of the whole conversation. Whenever Mel was on the backfoot or caught out for saying something stupid, she put on her uwu voice (literally saying uwu talking about genocide) trying to use it as cover for her dogshit. I hate it. I hate when cutesy femininity is used as a cloak for people who can't explain themselves, it's insulting and it's misogynistic as fuck, especially coming from a trans woman. I'm really sensitive to it because it's so common, people back down all the time because they don't want to seem like a bully; people end up being tricked into walking back reasonable criticism because they don't want to upset a woman, and when a trans woman does it, it feels like deliberately using their disphoria as an additional layer
Mel blocked me because I sent her a picture of her follower count glitched to 2 people 😔🤜
Mel’s dismissal of Vaush because of his whiteness reminds me of Viv in the big trans discussion when Vaush confronted her, then light her up for her double standards for him and Destiny. They’ll deny doing it and in the same breath start with “I just think it’s funny that a white....etc.”
What we've learned is that Vaush's chat is so pro trans, they're willing to show the same level of benevolent sexism they would to a trans woman they would to a cis woman.
Your analogy for abuser behavior about halfway through was absolutely bang on. Through highschool, I had a really emotionally abusive girlfriend who was a master of reeling me in just to push me back down with a pointed threat or insult.
Mel “how dare you hold me accountable for my abhorrent statements everywhere” plus abuser tones galore plus gaslight plus gatekeeper.
People really don't notice just HOW abusive her behavior here is. She's being VERY manipulative, she gaslights like nobody's business, plays up empathy cards, etc.
these people are always the first to tell you to not divide the left
The problem with ideologies on both the right and the left is that, the further into it you go, the more concerned you become with purity. The fringes have never been tolerant of any deviation from their narrow views.
I watched this debate yesterday. But stopped maybe 1/3rd in. Got this recommended to me today.
I didn't stop because I was mad at Vaush, I stopped because Mel was so clearly disinterested in having a discussion and if she didn't want to be here why was I here?
I can't believe people were upset at Vaush? What the hell?
Yeah so when I was in my late 20s I started to hook up with this 20 year old woman I met on fetlife. So me, 6'5" Master and her, super cute 5'0" girl who liked being thrown around in bed.
I'd never been in an abusive relationship and in theory all the power dynamics were in my favour. But in 3 weeks my mental health utterly crumbled. Mel sounds like her in how she acts.
Oh... I had been doubting myself but this woman told me in our last correspondence that she saw I was mentally ill and wanted to see if she could make me commit self die. If it was true or not I don't know but it was such a fucked up thing to say to someone I stopped doubting that it was abuse.
This was like 10 years ago. These days there at least is some awareness given to men about red flags.
vaush, stuff like this is incredibly damn important. thank you.
I think Mel is surrounded by a lot of "yes"-people. She gets her way and isn't used to be challenged so directly away from the comfort zone of Twitter. She really wanted to control the conversation, and I think Vaush was right to make sure she couldn't do that. Idk if she's actually abusive, but I do think she's spoiled.
Edit: maybe she is abusive. Idk. But did anybody else notice how eager she was to impress the audience (and maybe even Vaush) with how knowledgeable she is? I think she really did want to get the Hakeem treatment and was bitter when she realized she was going to be called out on her shit.
Concerning the "impress the audience"... there is a famous phrase like
"Stupid people will always share their knowledge about certain topics without being asked, as soon as the opportunity arises. The moments of silence are therefore statements for themselves."
Spoiled people can be abusive, often are, which makes sense, spoiled = self-centered and a lack of concern for others is pretty much the bedrock of emotional abuse.
Wow, legit triggered some trauma I didnt realize I was still dealing with. That was difficult to watch.
“you don’t know people!” she shouts at a sociologist
A degree in sociology doesn't make you a sociologist
This is actually a really good video on understanding gaslighting. I kind of noticed it towards the end of the call when it was live but going back with that context alone this shit is horrifically gaslighty