As always, another masterclass video. Thanks Adam. You mention a couple of times problems with Eagle chains. If you chose to run an Eagle AXS MTB drivetrain on one of your own bikes, what chain would you use with it? Thanks!
Hey Cat thanks for lovely feedback, better than expected for my completely unprepped throw it on the end of film day for that one! And yes overall - eagle xx1 / xo1 are the worlds best training chains as they have completely unmatched wear durability - no other chain is even close. But they are very slow so if one races, then race on something fast - the easiest plug n play go fast chain for sram eagle is ybn sla 12spd. On one bike i have eagle xx1 training, ybn 12 race, on another which i have a wolf tooth 12spd shimano compatible ring i run xx1 training, XTR 12 race. Most never break an eagle chain, just that it seemingly happens a bit more with eagle vs others, it is likely due to simply a rare riveting issue coming up on a single rivet here and there. Typically an eagle chain will break early in its life, or not at all. I would not say it is common at all, or anything for people to worry about, simply when you sell so many chains because that is core part of your work, the warranty rate for eagle vs other chains , so far, is a bit clearly higher vs others - but still it is definitely rare enough that as a cyclist on eagle, you shouldnt be concerned about it. For mtb riding it is good practice anyway to carry a spare link and have a multi tool that has a chain breaker on it for trail side repair, mtb ALWAYS has highest rate of chain failures due to big cogs, large chain line angles and higher chain tension for a given power due to small rings, and much more likely crunched shifts and terrain changes rapidly and one suddenly finds themselves needing 3 gears lower, whilst on a 20% pinch, thats bumpy, and things get interesting for the chain.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Again, as always, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I really do appreciate that. I'm running SRAM X01 cassette and chain, GX AXS RD and RaceFace Cinch crank/chainring setup and it's been solid. Especially now that I'm immersive waxing. I also don't race. So it's comforting to know that I'm running something that you would run yourself. Thanks again.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 So glad to read this comment. This video was the first I time I had heard about Eagle chains failing so I was slightly worried. Do you recall if it was more common with XX1 or X01, or about the same failure rate? I’m planning to switch to an eagle setup soon and will switch to waxing at that time. I don’t care so much about looks or speed, just wanting the best longevity. While we’re on the topic: do you have an opinion about chrome vs nickel outer plates? What about the PVD coating? XX1 chains seem to have this and X01 chains don’t. Do you think there is much difference in ease of waxing? Durability? Thanks for all that you do!
really jus that the best 7/8 spd chains still avail are the ybn sla 8spd and wippermann 808. Pretty much all the rest are very budget (for a long time now) and no wear protection so they dont last long. If still running a nice 7 or 8psd bike, then as will all bikes, one shouldnt skimp on their hardest working part + its lubricant, keep an eye on chain wear to protect rest of drivetrain etc - and it is still good times indeed.
Hi thanks for great info. Got question regarding chain preparation. I think you advised in the past to wipe the chain with clean cloth after each round with white spirit and observe if cloth gets dirty? Can’t find that info now, it is not mandatory? Or have I mixed it up?
Hey LGTV - thats for offroad riding - spray some alcohol onto a microfiber cloth to lift off surface dust that will stick to outside of chain, same as dust sticks to ones frame and they dont lubricate frame. This prevents bringing a bunch of dust into wax pot, or if using drip lubes, having the lubricant drag dust into the chain with it as it penetrates which is bad as then the dust will be abrasive on working load surfaces of chain. For road riding, doing the above is not necessary at all for wax / good wax lubricants - it is worth it for wet lubricants that will always have a higher amount of contamination on outside as every airborne particle sticks to wet lubricants.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks for reply. You are talking about maintenance between rides. I'm asking about first preparation before waxing. Now I remember where I've seen it: MSW chanel: ruclips.net/video/lI0tZqIpguk/видео.html I don't think you recommend it?
With regards to eagle chains having a higher failure rate, I wonder if AXS derailleurs put a greater side load on the chain than Shimano mechanical. I switched to AXS but kept a Shimano chain and cassette and noticed that while Shimano shifter/derailleur combo shifts smoother the AXS shifter/derailleur shifts noticeable faster. Shortly after I had 2 failures on the Shimano chain in the same ride. The outer plates deformed outwards and pushed off of the pins.
Thanks for all the videos Adam, Just got a few questions for you. Do you ever wash down the chain with boiling water pre re-setting the chain with wax (road bike). Or at least wipe down with metho and a micro fibre cloth? Or just depends how dirty it looks? Also wondering is it ok to alternate between a shimano 12 speed chain and sram eagle chain 12 speed chain, or will this cause unfavourable wear on cassette/ chain rings. Just struggling to get hold of shimano 12 speed chains! Thanks again for the all the advice.
Hey harry! For road riding if it just dry riding, there is absolutely zero need for any cleaning at all before waxing - and boiling water rinses all the time can actually be of more detriment than help (if not properly dried over time it can impact wax. It is very handy to help remove bulk of contamination post proper wet rides, but there is just nothing to remove post dry rides, and introducing water no reason just isnt optimal. I receive maybe one case per month of customer writing in with premature chain wear on waxing. OVer the last 6 years, almost all of these cases the customer has been boiling water rinsing every time before re waxing even though they are riding in dry road conditions. It does not hurt if done properly - chain fully dried before re wax - but there is simply zero point for the time and elec cost to boil water and dry chain unless it has been through a proper wet ride). Wiping with cloth and metho is also only of use to off road riders where dust will stick to surface of chain from static elec of whizzing through the air, just like dust sticks to ones frame. This just doesnt happen to any degree for road riding, again it would just be time and cost for zero trackable benefit. Re the chain i gather you are already running an xtr 12 compatible ring to run your shimano chain, in which case the eagle chain will run perfectly groovy. Re premature wear - alas not enough anecdotal data on this - there just arent many running both chains types on xtr 12 rings and tracking wear vs non xtr 12 rings - bearing in mind also mtb demographic is a) super horrendous at tracking wear and b) huge variation in one cyclists riding and dust would mean a very very large data set would be needed to attain even ball park average wear figures (and again it would vary by chain ring brand as not all chain rings war the same, some are quite hard wearing, some are quite soft. I personally have xtr 12 rings on my two mtbs, and i run eagle xx1 training chains and either a ybn or shimano xtr 12 chain for race chain. I have been doing this for circa 5 years, and thus far, my xtr 12 compatible rings from wolf tooth are just fine and dandy - but - i do re wax fairly early - i just dont push wax treatment lifespans as it is just uber easy for me to not push treatment lifespans as i am riding 5 bikes on rotation - everything nicely re waxed all the time = extremely low chain wear - at current rate my xx1 chain will last about a quarter of a century i think - and extremely low / nil chain ring & cassette wear. I have heard concerns that running non shimano chains on shimano 12spd rings may cause premature wear, but i havent seen what actually backs this up. I think it may be conflation of it is possible that in general xtr 12 rings may not be as long lasting as traditional narrow / wide rings as the teeth are overall much more narrow for the extended inner plate links. Less surface area material will have the teeth wear faster than more tooth material. I.e in a straight shoot out all things being equal i would expect a shimano 12spd ring to wear faster than a sram x-sync narrow wide ring. Having said all that, if waxing / top wax chain coating drip lube - your wear rates should be so low that overall rate of wear is pretty much a non issue - it is for me, it should be same for other clever low friction peeps :)
Interesting test mate , thanks for posting . it does make me wonder how modern chains would compare to chains from the old days like the 70`s , as I remember it vaguely ( yes im old ) they where much meatier and they had very little sideways flex , I look at the chain on my recently purchased current bike with 27 gears and the chain is sooooo thin like a strip of spaghetti , and for some people that equip their bikes with motor assist , it does make me wonder how much punishment the chain can take for example , if you are on a 30 degree hill and a large fella putting your all into peddling as well as the electric assist adding even more strain on the drive line , some of these EV bike kits put out 160 NM of torque . I can tell you im seriously thinking about carrying a spare chain , the one I see does not inspire confidence I can say that for sure.
I dont think the old ones would be any stronger. We just look at most beefy 1/8th track chains, they are much softer grade metal than 11 and 12spd chains, and so despite all the extra metal, they dont have a greater tensile strength. For e-bikes however and larger chain line angles that come with 11 & 12sdp drivetrains - absolutely failures are an issue, especially as people tend to shift under pretty nuts loads these days vs better practice of easing power off substantially for that half a second to shift. All it can all place a huge amount of pressure on outer plate trying to be pried off the pin, so the riveting strength is crucial, and all it takes is one weaker rivet and that can be the ball game. You normally dont need to carry a spare chain though, but all mtb & gravel riders should be carrying a tool that has a chain breaker as well as a spare master link - with that you can repair chain, and if you lose a couple links you simply may not be able to use lowest gear, but you will get home fine
Do you know if the YBN SLA 101 10-speed chain is compatible with a triple crankset? I've read you recommend them as a 10-speed chain for immersive waxing, but couldn't find if it's compatible.. thanks!
Hey robert - it will for sure be compatible if the triple is a 10spd triple. It will likely work fine as well on a 9spd triple, but if you have a 9spd, get the 9spd ybn sla. Yes overall the ybn are the rolls royce choice for many as are fast, wear durable and get along great with waxes.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 love to hear it. Just ordered mine including all the essentials for immersive waxing. Thank you for the content and setting me on the right path!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I built a new ebike using the bafang m620...it snapped my chain on first trial run. I have a linkglide chain on order so im going to try it regardless. but really look forward to finding out...
Do any sub-$20 chains stand out in performance? I have an early 00’s k2 attack mountain bike I’m fixing up after a long time in the shed and don’t have much to spend, I’m tempted to just go to Walmart and get a $10 “bike shop” (Walmart) branded chain unless there’s a clearly superior alternative for not much more I can get prime shipped or something.
no they dont at all, you really do get what you pay for, and remember as your hardest working mechanical part by a huge margin, that operates (and its lubricant) completely exposed to contamination - cheap chains just have no wear durability features built in (cheaper metal, no wear protections like chromium platings, no low friction coating). You can get barely passable lifespan of cheap chain by ensuring running top lubricant choice, but you want to keep a super close eye on chain wear so that it doesnt take out your cassette and make good inroads into chain rings once it wears past 0.5%. If you are not going to be riding the bike heaps then sure, no need to spend a bomb on a high quality chain - but if you are planning to clock up some good miles now - as your hardest working part - by so much - buying a cheap chain is a false economy.
Hey gary - I didnt quite get to starting to test master links - that was on the to do list next but then i ran out of time, and then honestly i have barely had a chain to spare so would have had to get some cheap chains in to test master links vs using some stock - im either out or just about out of pretty much every 11 or 12spd chain all the time for awhile now, but im hoping to get some straight line tests done soon-ish after i get the slipping cog fixed. It will be really interesting to see if they do fail before chain, fail earlier if used 10x etc - stay tuned - sorry i should have snuck at least one of those tests in i simply had planned to do a bunch of tests re master links and didnt quite make it so none have been done yet... Im keen to know too how they hold up vs chain!
Hi, just wanted a bit of clarification on 11 speed YBN chains. Since there's so many variants around, any SLA model is as good as another? And is it safe to assume that non-SLA YBNs are of lower/worse quality?
Hey deadly Ace yes ybn model naming - dont get how this stuff gets past marketing departments - it is not exactly intuitive! the sla series like 1110 or 110 etc - they are the top of the line models. Below that is H models ie H11, and that is a big drop i believe with them not having the same treatments (and they have solid pins). But if it leads with SLA - then that is the one you want
As always, another masterclass video. Thanks Adam. You mention a couple of times problems with Eagle chains. If you chose to run an Eagle AXS MTB drivetrain on one of your own bikes, what chain would you use with it? Thanks!
Hey Cat thanks for lovely feedback, better than expected for my completely unprepped throw it on the end of film day for that one! And yes overall - eagle xx1 / xo1 are the worlds best training chains as they have completely unmatched wear durability - no other chain is even close. But they are very slow so if one races, then race on something fast - the easiest plug n play go fast chain for sram eagle is ybn sla 12spd. On one bike i have eagle xx1 training, ybn 12 race, on another which i have a wolf tooth 12spd shimano compatible ring i run xx1 training, XTR 12 race. Most never break an eagle chain, just that it seemingly happens a bit more with eagle vs others, it is likely due to simply a rare riveting issue coming up on a single rivet here and there. Typically an eagle chain will break early in its life, or not at all. I would not say it is common at all, or anything for people to worry about, simply when you sell so many chains because that is core part of your work, the warranty rate for eagle vs other chains , so far, is a bit clearly higher vs others - but still it is definitely rare enough that as a cyclist on eagle, you shouldnt be concerned about it. For mtb riding it is good practice anyway to carry a spare link and have a multi tool that has a chain breaker on it for trail side repair, mtb ALWAYS has highest rate of chain failures due to big cogs, large chain line angles and higher chain tension for a given power due to small rings, and much more likely crunched shifts and terrain changes rapidly and one suddenly finds themselves needing 3 gears lower, whilst on a 20% pinch, thats bumpy, and things get interesting for the chain.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Again, as always, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I really do appreciate that. I'm running SRAM X01 cassette and chain, GX AXS RD and RaceFace Cinch crank/chainring setup and it's been solid. Especially now that I'm immersive waxing. I also don't race. So it's comforting to know that I'm running something that you would run yourself. Thanks again.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 So glad to read this comment. This video was the first I time I had heard about Eagle chains failing so I was slightly worried. Do you recall if it was more common with XX1 or X01, or about the same failure rate? I’m planning to switch to an eagle setup soon and will switch to waxing at that time. I don’t care so much about looks or speed, just wanting the best longevity.
While we’re on the topic: do you have an opinion about chrome vs nickel outer plates? What about the PVD coating? XX1 chains seem to have this and X01 chains don’t. Do you think there is much difference in ease of waxing? Durability?
Thanks for all that you do!
Thanks Adam. Do you have any recent info on 7/8 speed chains for bikes?
really jus that the best 7/8 spd chains still avail are the ybn sla 8spd and wippermann 808. Pretty much all the rest are very budget (for a long time now) and no wear protection so they dont last long. If still running a nice 7 or 8psd bike, then as will all bikes, one shouldnt skimp on their hardest working part + its lubricant, keep an eye on chain wear to protect rest of drivetrain etc - and it is still good times indeed.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Is KMC X8 with the Ti-N coating any good?
Thanks from a city E bike rider.
Hi thanks for great info. Got question regarding chain preparation. I think you advised in the past to wipe the chain with clean cloth after each round with white spirit and observe if cloth gets dirty? Can’t find that info now, it is not mandatory? Or have I mixed it up?
Hey LGTV - thats for offroad riding - spray some alcohol onto a microfiber cloth to lift off surface dust that will stick to outside of chain, same as dust sticks to ones frame and they dont lubricate frame. This prevents bringing a bunch of dust into wax pot, or if using drip lubes, having the lubricant drag dust into the chain with it as it penetrates which is bad as then the dust will be abrasive on working load surfaces of chain. For road riding, doing the above is not necessary at all for wax / good wax lubricants - it is worth it for wet lubricants that will always have a higher amount of contamination on outside as every airborne particle sticks to wet lubricants.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks for reply. You are talking about maintenance between rides. I'm asking about first preparation before waxing. Now I remember where I've seen it: MSW chanel: ruclips.net/video/lI0tZqIpguk/видео.html I don't think you recommend it?
With regards to eagle chains having a higher failure rate, I wonder if AXS derailleurs put a greater side load on the chain than Shimano mechanical. I switched to AXS but kept a Shimano chain and cassette and noticed that while Shimano shifter/derailleur combo shifts smoother the AXS shifter/derailleur shifts noticeable faster.
Shortly after I had 2 failures on the Shimano chain in the same ride. The outer plates deformed outwards and pushed off of the pins.
Thanks for all the videos Adam,
Just got a few questions for you.
Do you ever wash down the chain with boiling water pre re-setting the chain with wax (road bike). Or at least wipe down with metho and a micro fibre cloth? Or just depends how dirty it looks?
Also wondering is it ok to alternate between a shimano 12 speed chain and sram eagle chain 12 speed chain, or will this cause unfavourable wear on cassette/ chain rings. Just struggling to get hold of shimano 12 speed chains!
Thanks again for the all the advice.
Hey harry! For road riding if it just dry riding, there is absolutely zero need for any cleaning at all before waxing - and boiling water rinses all the time can actually be of more detriment than help (if not properly dried over time it can impact wax. It is very handy to help remove bulk of contamination post proper wet rides, but there is just nothing to remove post dry rides, and introducing water no reason just isnt optimal. I receive maybe one case per month of customer writing in with premature chain wear on waxing. OVer the last 6 years, almost all of these cases the customer has been boiling water rinsing every time before re waxing even though they are riding in dry road conditions. It does not hurt if done properly - chain fully dried before re wax - but there is simply zero point for the time and elec cost to boil water and dry chain unless it has been through a proper wet ride).
Wiping with cloth and metho is also only of use to off road riders where dust will stick to surface of chain from static elec of whizzing through the air, just like dust sticks to ones frame. This just doesnt happen to any degree for road riding, again it would just be time and cost for zero trackable benefit.
Re the chain i gather you are already running an xtr 12 compatible ring to run your shimano chain, in which case the eagle chain will run perfectly groovy. Re premature wear - alas not enough anecdotal data on this - there just arent many running both chains types on xtr 12 rings and tracking wear vs non xtr 12 rings - bearing in mind also mtb demographic is a) super horrendous at tracking wear and b) huge variation in one cyclists riding and dust would mean a very very large data set would be needed to attain even ball park average wear figures (and again it would vary by chain ring brand as not all chain rings war the same, some are quite hard wearing, some are quite soft.
I personally have xtr 12 rings on my two mtbs, and i run eagle xx1 training chains and either a ybn or shimano xtr 12 chain for race chain. I have been doing this for circa 5 years, and thus far, my xtr 12 compatible rings from wolf tooth are just fine and dandy - but - i do re wax fairly early - i just dont push wax treatment lifespans as it is just uber easy for me to not push treatment lifespans as i am riding 5 bikes on rotation - everything nicely re waxed all the time = extremely low chain wear - at current rate my xx1 chain will last about a quarter of a century i think - and extremely low / nil chain ring & cassette wear.
I have heard concerns that running non shimano chains on shimano 12spd rings may cause premature wear, but i havent seen what actually backs this up. I think it may be conflation of it is possible that in general xtr 12 rings may not be as long lasting as traditional narrow / wide rings as the teeth are overall much more narrow for the extended inner plate links. Less surface area material will have the teeth wear faster than more tooth material. I.e in a straight shoot out all things being equal i would expect a shimano 12spd ring to wear faster than a sram x-sync narrow wide ring.
Having said all that, if waxing / top wax chain coating drip lube - your wear rates should be so low that overall rate of wear is pretty much a non issue - it is for me, it should be same for other clever low friction peeps :)
Interesting test mate , thanks for posting .
it does make me wonder how modern chains would compare to chains from the old days like the 70`s , as I remember it vaguely ( yes im old ) they where much meatier and they had very little sideways flex , I look at the chain on my recently purchased current bike with 27 gears and the chain is sooooo thin like a strip of spaghetti , and for some people that equip their bikes with motor assist , it does make me wonder how much punishment the chain can take for example , if you are on a 30 degree hill and a large fella putting your all into peddling as well as the electric assist adding even more strain on the drive line , some of these EV bike kits put out 160 NM of torque .
I can tell you im seriously thinking about carrying a spare chain , the one I see does not inspire confidence I can say that for sure.
I dont think the old ones would be any stronger. We just look at most beefy 1/8th track chains, they are much softer grade metal than 11 and 12spd chains, and so despite all the extra metal, they dont have a greater tensile strength.
For e-bikes however and larger chain line angles that come with 11 & 12sdp drivetrains - absolutely failures are an issue, especially as people tend to shift under pretty nuts loads these days vs better practice of easing power off substantially for that half a second to shift. All it can all place a huge amount of pressure on outer plate trying to be pried off the pin, so the riveting strength is crucial, and all it takes is one weaker rivet and that can be the ball game.
You normally dont need to carry a spare chain though, but all mtb & gravel riders should be carrying a tool that has a chain breaker as well as a spare master link - with that you can repair chain, and if you lose a couple links you simply may not be able to use lowest gear, but you will get home fine
@@zerofrictioncycling992 great information , thanks mate .
Cheers.
Do you know if the YBN SLA 101 10-speed chain is compatible with a triple crankset? I've read you recommend them as a 10-speed chain for immersive waxing, but couldn't find if it's compatible.. thanks!
Hey robert - it will for sure be compatible if the triple is a 10spd triple. It will likely work fine as well on a 9spd triple, but if you have a 9spd, get the 9spd ybn sla. Yes overall the ybn are the rolls royce choice for many as are fast, wear durable and get along great with waxes.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 love to hear it. Just ordered mine including all the essentials for immersive waxing. Thank you for the content and setting me on the right path!
really interested in the tensile strength of the linkglide CN-LG500 chain - did you ever complete this test?
me too - and sorry no havent had time to get machine fixed, lubricant testing been too busy! one day..... its on the list....
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I built a new ebike using the bafang m620...it snapped my chain on first trial run. I have a linkglide chain on order so im going to try it regardless. but really look forward to finding out...
Do any sub-$20 chains stand out in performance? I have an early 00’s k2 attack mountain bike I’m fixing up after a long time in the shed and don’t have much to spend, I’m tempted to just go to Walmart and get a $10 “bike shop” (Walmart) branded chain unless there’s a clearly superior alternative for not much more I can get prime shipped or something.
no they dont at all, you really do get what you pay for, and remember as your hardest working mechanical part by a huge margin, that operates (and its lubricant) completely exposed to contamination - cheap chains just have no wear durability features built in (cheaper metal, no wear protections like chromium platings, no low friction coating). You can get barely passable lifespan of cheap chain by ensuring running top lubricant choice, but you want to keep a super close eye on chain wear so that it doesnt take out your cassette and make good inroads into chain rings once it wears past 0.5%. If you are not going to be riding the bike heaps then sure, no need to spend a bomb on a high quality chain - but if you are planning to clock up some good miles now - as your hardest working part - by so much - buying a cheap chain is a false economy.
Adam how strong are quick links. The same standard as chain
Hey gary - I didnt quite get to starting to test master links - that was on the to do list next but then i ran out of time, and then honestly i have barely had a chain to spare so would have had to get some cheap chains in to test master links vs using some stock - im either out or just about out of pretty much every 11 or 12spd chain all the time for awhile now, but im hoping to get some straight line tests done soon-ish after i get the slipping cog fixed. It will be really interesting to see if they do fail before chain, fail earlier if used 10x etc - stay tuned - sorry i should have snuck at least one of those tests in i simply had planned to do a bunch of tests re master links and didnt quite make it so none have been done yet... Im keen to know too how they hold up vs chain!
Hi, just wanted a bit of clarification on 11 speed YBN chains. Since there's so many variants around, any SLA model is as good as another?
And is it safe to assume that non-SLA YBNs are of lower/worse quality?
Hey deadly Ace yes ybn model naming - dont get how this stuff gets past marketing departments - it is not exactly intuitive! the sla series like 1110 or 110 etc - they are the top of the line models. Below that is H models ie H11, and that is a big drop i believe with them not having the same treatments (and they have solid pins). But if it leads with SLA - then that is the one you want
You talk too much.
yes i do. Thankyou.