How a Grower Feeds Roses (Discussion)
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- I've grown roses in pots using both slow-release fertilizer and a water soluble blend. In this video, I'll discuss some of the information sources I've used to make my current fertilizer recommendations. To cut to the chase, while you can grow good roses over a wide range of NPK ratios, my experience, the literature and research seems to support a higher N, lower P and mid to high K. The simplified ratios 3-1-2, 3-1-3, 3-2-2, or 3-2-3 (as locally available at a good price) would each do the job, but for best plant health should also be formulated (or amended) with Mg, Fe and Ca and micronutrients. Note also that there's little support for the high P formulations often marketed as "rose food".
For a quicker discussion (without books & research) aimed at the home gardener, here's a point-form video on the topic:
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Hi Jason, from my own experience, it is important to switch from high N to to P during the flowering stage. I used to use high N formulation (24-8-16 Miracle Gro and 5-1-1 fish emulsion) only throughout the growing season and I noticed that the roses would grow super tall with long canes but the amount of blooms were not what I expected. Since that, I have only used high N formulation in early spring when roses start growing leaves then switch to high P formulation (15-30-15 Miracle Gro or 0-10-10 fish emulsion). What a big difference it has made! The amount of blooms have doubled if not tripled and the roses don't grow super tall canes. I have a Poseidon rose it normally gives me 50-60 blooms when using high N formulation only but the blooms went up to 200 the first time I used high P formulation in the blooming stage. After the blooms are finished and done pruning the roses, I would switch back to high N formulation to boost the growth of the new shoots then change to high P formulation again when flower buds are visible. So far this method works extremely well for all my roses. The other thing I do regularly is I would spray Potassium dihydrogen phosphate to the foliages and the flower buds during blooming stage. The result is that for floribunda rose you can get way more blooms on a single stem.
Thanks for weighing in on this Uncle Wang - you know I always respect your input. I've seen enough in-person disagreement on this topic to know it can turn into a battle of anecdotes and ego, which is sort of why I did the extended version of the video with some of the research studies from cut flower growers (who have a pretty significant interest in maximizing flowers): link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13580-016-0120-y I'll leave it to your good judgement and consideration, but I do have one more question and caution about the routine use of high P fertilizers. Where does the P go? We know from the tissue analysis that the P is only taken up by the roses in much lower quantities than N, K or even Ca. In fact the amount absorbed is barely higher than even Mg or S, which are offered in far lower quantities. There are horticultural and environmental concerns around applying P as a fertilizer massively above what the plant is able to use: 1) the accumulation in the soil to levels harmful to the plants themselves (lock out of iron, copper, zinc, etc.) 2) whatever isn't held in the soil is washed into the local water with its own consequences. When a gardener is told to apply phosphorus at 10 or even 20x what the plant can absorb for any duration, it invites trouble down the road IMO.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Hi Jason, thank you for your reply. I have been a long time fan of your channel and have learned so much from you. Always respect your expertise. Like I said, I can only speak of my own experience so what works for me may not work for others. As for your concerns about the excessive use of P, here are some points regarding the way I feed my roses . 1）I always use a concentration ratio much lower than the recommended ratio on the package of the fertilizers but I feed my roses more frequently. I use 1:1000 in spring and fall, 1:1500-1:2000 in summer. I think the recommended ratio for Micro Gro is about 1:300. Maybe the roses can't absorb too much P per day but if the roses are fed more frequently at the lower concentration ratio, they can absorb more P in a prolonged period. 2) the duration of applying high P is shorter than the duration of applying high N. Let's say one full bloom cycle of a rose is about 5-6 weeks average from producing new shoots to the finish of the blooms. The duration of applying high N may takes up to 2-3 weeks and the duration of applying high P normally only takes 1 week to 10 days. I stop feeding my roses when the flower buds are big enough to show colours. Based on these 2 facts, maybe P in the soil is not as much as it appears to be when you only look at the numbers on the package. Also I don't know if any studies have been done on the impact from weather, temperature and sun exposure on the absorption of NPK. I know a gardener/RUclipsr who grows roses in Northern California. He only uses one high N fertilizer (Mirco Gro all purpose) throughout the season for all his roses with good results. I always thought this is because of his geographic location where his roses always get warm weather and endless sun exposure. No matter what fertilizer he is using, his roses will always perform better than my roses in Zone 5b. I also read some articles saying too much N can increase the powdery mildew issue on roses and I kinda agree with that. Do you have any personal experience on this issue?
Thanks. I really like the approach of applying at a far lower concentration and then topping up as needed. I'll definitely defer to your careful experience in dealing with your own plants. As for your friend in Northern California, it makes complete sense to me that his roses would flower well with only supplemental N if the other nutrients are already sufficiently present in the soil. It's not a matter of "more is better" but rather, "does the rose have all it needs?" - and all that sunshine doesn't hurt either ;-)
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm I will be very interested in doing an experiment of a side by side comparison between two roses in similar size under exactly the same growing conditions(water, soil, sun) but fed differently. The roses should be 2 own root roses from the same mother plant planted in 1 or 2 gal pots on the same location with same soil used. One will be fed with high N fertilizers only all the way through and the other one will be fed with high N then switch to high P like the way I feed my roses. After one flowering cycle, we can observe the results: the overall size of the roses, the amount and the size of the blooms etc... I am not sure if I will be able to find two similar sized roses of the same variety next spring though. I think it will be much easier for you to select two nearly identical ones for the experiment as you propagate in a large scale for your business. This could be an interesting content for your channel as well. Thank you!
Uncle Tom's Rose Tonic is popular with growers in the UK only 10% P and 9% K. Rose societies recommend it - no nitrogen at all. Sold as a soil drench, foliar feed and regular food. @@FraserValleyRoseFarm
Thanks for the heads up on fertilizers. Still using alfalfa pellets on my roses in spring and early summer with manure and compost.💐
Great plan!
If you are asking for questions to explore in videos - here is another puzzler for you, Jason. Please explore the cultivation/hormone pattern difference between climbers and shrub roses. Rose forums say that one named cultivar is completely the same plant whether sold in its climbing or shrub form - there are no genetic differences. So - for example, Gertrude J is exactly the same plant whether sold as a climber or as a shrub rose. The max height for the shrub is given as one metre, the max height for the climber is given as 2.5 metres. Are we to suppose that the only difference is how they have been pruned at the nursery before they arrive with the customer? Surely initial pruning isn't going to make very much difference to the plant after a few seasons. The same exact plant isn't going to stop throwing out long canes and stop at one metre.
Does a shrub rose arrive with multiple canes and a climber has just a few? Do they do something arcane at the nursery to the shrub roses to stop them growing tall? Is there some kind of spell? I hear it whispered sometimes that if one over-prunes a climbing rose it can "revert" to becoming a shrub. It all sounds very mysterious. Thanks
Thank you!
I’ve definitely found that my roses do far better with regular soil amendments.
I ensure they get it twice a year if possible.
This year due to poor health I was unable to add anything and I really noticed a huge difference in performance, repeat flowering was very slow and scattered.
I didn’t find much improvement with doing of the big expensive brands. I’ve even found chicken manure or blood fish and bone, has given me fat better results than I was getting from David Austen feed.
After two years I decided that the more natural forms with a boost of liquid feed as try finish a flush. Is saving me a lot of money and I have healthier foliage. Bigger flowers and every flush is big and full. Instead of c the small scattered blooms.
Your videos are always interesting and I’ve learnt soo much from you over the years. It means I get to enjoy my roses more because they’re being treated well and rewarding me because of v your advice. My little village neighbours all talk b about my roses and the scent half way down the street.
Thank you Jason
Thanks for your comment, and wonderful to hear what great results you've had with basic organic amendments!
Hi Belle, I’m new to gardening. What do you do to amend your soil? Thank you
Whenever back is killing me, barely can get up in garden, overwhelmed, think, "Jason is still there"
Jason’s a darling.. as busy as he must be i’m sure.. he answers when we need vital info & don’t charge for it either.. Jason & rose geek are the only people i’ve subscribed to
Thank you!!!🌹 You just answered all my questions as to why I'm lousy at growing roses and am killing my antique rose.I really appreciate your informative videos!!❤!!
Your videos are so helpful. We out here are so grateful to you for producing them. You're the expert that I turn to.
Thanks so much
Great info as always! Thanks Jason!
Thanks for watching!
Really appreciate the information Jason, thank you.
Interesting topic! Lawn fertilizers are adjusted to seasons. In spring, cold season grass just wants to grow, thus, nitrogene heavy fertilizer is used to support that insane growth. In summer, the heat stresses it out, it loses some of it's root system, thus, a higher K is used to bring down stress, and help the plant work on it's root because there's hardly any foliar growth anyways. In autumn, when it's getting ready for winter, and for snow, and dormancy, it is fed with, again higher K and also to bring down the growth, too much nitrogene can be damaging to a plant before the winter. Higher levels of Phosphorus is only used in seed starting (in this case, lawn seeding starter fertilizer) so with very young plants. In Europe, we have many fertilizer companies that formulate fertilizers for their seasonal needs, or supporting growing out the plants for sale. Imagine a product line up with "Spring rose fertilizer" "Summer rose fertilizer" "Autumn rose fertilizer" and repeating this with every flowering plant there is. As a home gardener I am confused enough as to why I can't use my rose fertilizer on my other flowering shrubs. :)
That's a really good point! Famously cannabis and forestry tree growers swap out growing formulas for different stages of growth, which doesn't always mean that they're right - and highlights why you should be skeptical enough to compare industry recommendations to the research and temper it with a good dose of common sense.
Excellent video!!!!!! One of your most important lessons so far!!!! (I grow 50 roses)
Helpful information based on research
Thank you Jason! Blessings 💕🤗
very useful information! thank you
Thank you Jason. 🍁🍂🍁💚🙃
Great video! Thank!
Jason, lots of info for me to take in, since it’s the end of summer I’ll revisit this video next year, unless Fall is ok to fertilize. I didn’t hear you mention the best season to do so. Thanks a-lot for your info as always
Thanks. In pots I keep a pretty steady feeding so long as they're in active growth - that's when they need the nutrients. In the garden I ease off about 6-8 weeks before the first frost date.
Thank you for the great (science based) information. Also the analogy to adding salt without tasting sends the message that a soil test at least every 3 years can go a long way towards improving your soil. The extension offices (in the US anyway), will not only test the soil but will make suggestions for amendments depending on what you grow, (ornamentals, vegetables, grass, trees).
Thanks Vikki. Good point, and I wish all jurisdictions were equally supportive with soil tests. Here in BC, it averages over $50 for a soil test, and almost no one knows where to have it done or how to interpret the results.
Hey Jason! Thank you for sharing some brand names and the "nutritional information" percentages from your fertilizer. I was in a garden center earlier today and didn't know my a** from my elbow when it came to anything other than NPK, now I have a baseline!
I have a question about liquid vs. slow release for potted roses. You'd mentioned liquid fertilizer was good for young roses. For a rose old enough to sell on your farm, and plant in a container on my patio, would you recommend a slow release fertilizer or liquid (or both)? If yes to liquid, how long would you continue that into the plant's life?
I really enjoy your science based and straightforward approach. I've learned so much from your channel and I look forward to visiting the farm when you open in March!
Hi. I’m new to roses this year and have David Austin roses in pots and in the ground. I really enjoyed your video and have been using granular rose & liquid feed. I purchased Biomix fish feed which is high in nitrogen. I’ve been using it on my foliage plants but worried about putting it on my flowering plants in case I get little flowering but a lot of foliage. Any advice please. I live in the North of England by the way.
Thanks ❤❤❤❤❤
Great and important video for home and commercial growers alike. I wanted you to name more names though! Brands that follow science and those that don’t. Also, I don’t know about Canada 🇨🇦 but where I live the prices of fertilizer and the like has gone up so much it is almost impossible. Do you have DIY solutions? Thank you. Your channel is a trusted channel
Thanks so much. It's tough with my videos reaching such a wide geographic area to talk more specifically about products. Some are far more available in one region or another. So I went for the next best thing: teach a good range of ratios, and then the viewer can source the best local option. As for DIY (in garden soil) I'm always looking for bulk organic amendments like locally cheap or free manure, etc. In containers/conventional ferts, I have a video where I talk about how to save some money: ruclips.net/video/oZnGGA6YgXE/видео.html
I still remember you saying once N is up above, P is down below and K is all around…did I quote that right? Hope so because I think of it every time I use fertilizer and usually use slow release organic type mixed into my soil when I plant and as needed. Also give them a little drink with fish emulsion now and again, a little toddy for the body! Excellent video Jason, Thank You❤
Thanks Cindy. It's an older expression to describe what people understood the nutrients to "do" - up, down and all around. The accuracy could definitely be debated. Yes, nitrogen is needed for fresh green growth. And yes, potassium is associated with overall plant health and condition. The complete *absence* of P is definitely detrimental to the root growth of young seedlings, so I suppose that's where it originated. But I'm not sure there's a catchy way to say "a certain minimum level of each nutrient is required for just about every function of the plant, and don't get too carried away on any one or another"
Great Video ! Can you do another roses video on fungicide spraying and another one on Miticides control ?
Thanks. I'll take down the topics for my list
I do nothing but add kitchen scraps to the general garden. Mostly coffee, egg shells potato, carrot, cucumber skins and such.
A couple bags of manure and wood mulch in the spring. A couple cups of alfalfa all around. The potted roses need food. all year round.
Weekly and weakly. With whatever comes to mind.
I make scrap tea with weeds and kitchen scraps all summer long.
My 20x20 city box is very colorful and happy. Besides the insane amount of curly sawfly.
Thanks - no doubt with a decent garden soil household compost, a touch of alfalfa and a chip mulch is plenty. Good to hear about your success!
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm All my success is from folks like you! I dont need to do this for a living. You do.
Imagine reducing everything to a 20x20 space.
You might grow insane.
This is fantastic and so well explained, thank you! My only question for anyone who is reading this: would I need to get a soil test for each area/garden in my large yard? Or would a soil test on just one of my beds be sufficient? I have probably 8 big main beds all over my 2 acre property with different drainage and sun exposure. The soil all looks to be the same color though when I dig down
Thanks - that's a really good question, and it's something I'll be talking about in an upcoming video on soil tests. You'll see some soil testing recommendations for 5 tests in a standard suburban lot! While it's true that soil will vary from area to area (otherwise, couldn't we just rely on a neighbor's soil test?) that seems a little overboard to me. Depending on your local cost of testing I'd probably start with one test or maybe two just to see if there's much variance. My attitude is like this: there's a great cost/benefit when you're moving from no information to some information, but it's hard to justify each additional cost when moving from some information towards "perfectly correct".
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm That's a great answer, thank you!
Thank you for the great video. I've been struggling with this exact thing. I live in Swaziland where very few products are available. What are your thoughts on diy recipes for "miracle growth " - they typically have amonia and such in them.
The recipe I saw had ammonia, epsom salts and baking soda. Without digging too much into chemistry (pH and possible reactions), it seems desperately incomplete at best - possible source of nitrogen, magnesium and sulfur on the positive side, and sodium (not so good) on the bad side. Far from complete, and as mentioned in my video, magnesium is typically required in far, far lower rates than nitrogen. The recipe I saw was seriously out of whack even on that point. P and K missing entirely. No, not a credible nutrient solution.
You can look up KNF and JADAM methods they have a lot of good ideas for people living in areas where chemical fertilizers are out of reach or have a very high price.
I have easy access to commercial fertilizers, but I don't use any. I add composted manure every fall and spring and a wood mulch on my flowers and a straw mulch on my vegetables. That's all.
Hi Jason, how would you know if a rose plant is giving positive results for the fertilizer you gave it? How long would you wait to increase the dose? Would you increase the amount, frequency etc.? Thank you.
Hi Raymund. I evaluate both for healthy growth and flowering. The fertilizer mixing rates I use are based on ppm of N (for container roses) and even if you don't get that specific, there are usually recommended rates offered by the supplier.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm thank you very much!
Thanks for explaining and sharing the info.on the fertilizers . You can pick up one bag and it will be totally different from the others in the end I've just picked up what I think will be best so far more mine have done ok but I think I will look for another
You're right - they sure don't make it easy! Thanks for watching
What can you add to roses in the fall to help them through the winter?
It's not really the time to be adding fertilizer. You want to let them slow down and ease off new growth. If they're zone hardy, I don't offer additional protection, but might consider hilling soil after dormancy on something borderline.
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm Thank you.
Can I put in a clay pot not sealed
Seems like all potting soil has to contain some N, P and K as at least part of it is always coming from both organic and mineral based materials.
Getting data from hydroponically grown roses may not indicate what a rose needs, as in this case, the water growing medium has always been supplemented with some formulation of fertilizer and surely the make up of what was used will have an effect on what is found inside the plant tissue.
Thanks. I'd agree with your balanced approach - all the essential nutrients need to be there, and don't focus excessively on one or another. Yes, it makes sense to view any study (including the one I cited) with caution. They each have their limitations. I did look at a number of other studies with similar conclusion, and of course tried to balance it with grower's experience and the tissue analysis info.
Thanks Jason very interesting. Ive always read the middle number should be higher than the other two for better n bigger blooms?
And that basic rule is likely why fertilizer manufacturers continue to produce rose fertilizers based on what we think roses need vs what the science says they need.
Could someone please advise the pH mini roses grow best in?
Best nutrient availability is in the range of 6.5
This is all such a rabbit hole to go down. I'm about five years into commercial hydroponic farming and it's still very hard to get my head around it all. We do a lot of sap and leaf tests, and sometimes the recommendation will be to increase boron from 30 grams per 2000 litres to 70 grams. Why? Apparently, the plant said so. We also change from potassium nitrate to potassium sulphate when the growth phase moves into fruiting/flowering. If we are growing for tall rapid growth, we use mono potassium phosphate, if we are after short bushy growth, we use mono ammonium phosphate. Sometimes we change once the plants are tall enough, so they bush out more. My only point here is good luck people. It's almost impossible to be 100% correct and really easy to overdo it and burn everything.
Right - it all goes up an additional level of complexity if you're guiding your fertigation with tissue analysis, recirculating nutrient solution, and of course the more intensively you're managing the crop. So while I can get comfortable enough with the research to make a general recommendation for a small-scale grower such as myself, there's no doubt that you could endlessly tweak for every advantage. The real trick, I suppose, is in the decision of "how right do I need to be for the circumstances?"
@@FraserValleyRoseFarm That is absolutely right Jason. I think 5-5-5 for younglings and something around 15-15-15 or a little bit more for adult plants is going to be perfectly fine in most situations. The other thing I don't have to deal with at work, which I do at home, is variety. What suits yer broccoli may be wildly inadequate for your chilli plants. At home I take a milder approach. I just do cal nitrate at 1g/l and a mix of magnesium sulphate, potassium and trace elements at 1g/l and mostly stuff is fine.
As I'm reading this, it's Fall. I've heard that we should stop feeding our roses in the Fall/Winter and give them a rest from fertilizers and let them go dormant. Is that true?
Yes, that's valid IMO. I suppose we're trying to avoid fresh soft growth going into the winter season, and the feeding needs of the plants definitely go down as the temperature cools.
Do roses like a higher PH?
Neutral to slightly acidic is best for nutrient availability. Roses don't like alkaline soils in general.
"Trust, but verify." Are you a military veteran, by any chance?
The first number is nitrogen for growth switch to higher p k for flowering
Jason, I noticed you are getting slimmer and slimmer these days, your computer almost looks bigger than you are. what's the secret?
Thanks. No real secret. My worst health habit was snacking in the evenings.
Nitrogen is for growth not flower ing
Nitrogen is required for all stages of growth, and the studies I referenced support a higher N for improved flowering. The need for high phosphorus during flowering has been challenged by recent research results. I'm pretty confident that a ration between 3-1-2 (on the low end for P and K) and 3-2-3 (on the high end for P and K) is suitable for roses based on the studies and tissue analysis.
I can grow anything except roses. Maybe I believed the wrong information.
I have found out that I use liquid fertilizer