Which is sad because the people who originally created Xorg and worked on it since the beginning say it's a dumpster fire. It is the poster-child of shoe-horned feature-creep ball-of-mud techdebt that just won't die. The only way to fix it is to throw it out and replace it because any proper fixes will break backwards compatibility anyway.
IPv6 is the default on my home network, (ISPs router defaults), work network, and when I was working for a university half a decade ago, we only had IPv4 as fallback
This is the classic case of devs switching to the cool new things, letting old systems die before their new thing is anywhere close to ready. And there's even a chance they'll get bored with wayland and in the end all we get is two broken systems. Peak FOSS
I'm still voting for the replacement to be named Y. If someone doesn't fork the project, which would be perfect for a project with a forked letter, I may do it myself. Deleting a lot of code after a fork still makes it a fork. Yes, it does!
Do you want to pick up Mark Thomas' project from 2004, Christoph Toshok's from 1998, or just add to the pile of overlapping names? (I'm sure there are more than these.)
If it is as easy to nominate someone else as you claim, then all it takes is 1 person to nominate 20 people and you have your nomination problem solved.
Sounds like my local public library board in America. An election was just held for board members, and nobody ran for the open board member set. Two other incumbents were re-elected. There is likely a procedure in the by-laws to handle the lack of a quorum to hold board meetings, but it gets to be a bit of a headache. Maybe existing board members can appoint new members, or another election has to be held. This is often a problem for small non-profits; the pool of interested people is far smaller because let's face it, the board members are often unpaid or un-stipended for their services of guiding the organization.
I wonder if wayland is slow to solve issues is because the community has not bitten the bullet because Xorg still works. I suspect that a lot of desktop environments will not transition until basically Xorg is broken and unusable without xwayland. if I remember right, wasn't Wayland created by Xorg developers who were tired of working with the complex Xorg codebase? it seems wayland was made to make their job easier at the cost of making the desktop environment devs jobs harder. and this second part is harming wayland adoption?
Using Pop Os right and I recently had some setbacks building a swing application. Apparently the most recent versions of Java and its libraries are being designed with Wayland in mind. Pop Os is still using X11.
and thats why i hate this wayland idoelogy, i CANT run wayland, if i could i would, but yeah i would probably get stuck somewhere because something was made with wayland and wayland only in mind
@Scarlet and no, the proprietary driver doesnt work with wayland, 970 4gb pretty capable card and i cant even get a desktop when i select wayland in SDDM, i can use nouveau and maybe have a stable desktop, but good luck getting any games to work good with nouveau
I haven't used Wayland yet, but I plan to try it in the near future with Sway. It sounds like it would be a big step forward for Linux. Still, I see a lot of people poo-pooing the project, so I find myself rooting for the underdog.
It's the usual case with Linux when something fundamental is being replaced by something that disrupts people's current workflow, even if it is ultimately better
I'm using it with Vanilla OS and I only realized that I was using it because I opened the information in the configuration. What I mean is that at least for me it's stable and no downside compared to Xorg.
@@wesleyoliveira6570 Wayland experience can vary wildly across desktop choices and hardware combinations. For example, VRR protocol: Not implemented on Gnome, works on KDE, borked on wlroots/sway.
The only thing really stopping me from using Wayland is that I need some good support for Optimus, as o use it for gaming. Otherwise, Hyprland has all my needs in it.
Yup. This is probably the final frontier for Wayland beyond the typical slurry of edge cases and smaller/unmaintained applications. Once all major hardware is supported at a decent level then X can die and we'll all still have a windowing system that's actively maintained, even if it's buggier and slower or whatever other issues it might still have.
So start financially supporting the developers to update to Wayland and stop expecting developers to do the work for free. Or start coding yourself, either way stop whining.
@@sbstratos79 this seems to be the case for most naysayers. "Wayland is buggy or doesn't support foo or bar." Been watching some Wayland vids the past couple days and from everything I've seen, foo, bar, baz, and bat are supported. I guess I should try to find a video made by the anti-wayland folks and see what they think is borked or isn't working for them.
Been in a position where I ran uncontested for a position, though it was a student led thing rather than something worldwide like xorg. It was a terrible idea and I was not well suited for it. Frankly, I'm not convinced that anybody should run unopposed for any elected position.
What I kinda wanna do is do a full rewrite of xorg while using the original header files and everything to maintain compatibility. The really difficult thing is all the applications xorg uses are different packages and different source code, and I don't even know if I would be allowed to do such a project. I wanna see X11 or some fork thrive as much as Wayland probably will.
i run xorg rn because nvidia-390xx is painful on wayland, according to my really limited reasearch which literally was reading a few wiki pages, and also 'cuz i don't _really_ see a reason at this moment in time to change my pc. except maybe to run windows games under linux so i can stop using windows, that'd be awesome. on an unrelated note, i love how the supporters' names and tiers now don't exist until like 2 seconds after switching into the scene. file loading, mayhaps? brodie: That's going to be it for me, and... *moves closer to mic* _im running hyprland_
I was just watching Log Horizon Season 3 until episode 2 and their round table conference being over/disbanded and I know this has nothing to do with the situation with xorg foundation but I am getting the vibes anyway :p
Are they paid? If yes, how much? The chances would increase if there were some monetary compensation. Ideally would to do it just because you care, but desperate times...
That is the difference, my guess it is zero... Unlike Linux CLI that lives in server space and has the big bucks thrown at it for companies, the desktop with X and Wayland is totally enthusiast run. If the big corps needs a desktop, they run to Microsoft while Linux powers their backend, and they get the best of both worlds.
And people wonder why I say I can't be bothered to deal with Linux until Wayland is ready. I have issues with xorg and from all I can tell xorg itself is sort of just...in maintenence mode? So yeah, that's why I'm waiting on wayland
Wayland already works for me - screensharing works (Slack, Skype in browser). Sway is good enough, everything except few applications run as Wayland clients. Intel integrated GPU.
I don't wonder - I've never heard of you before you posted this comment here. Why should I care whether or not you use Linux? a. I've never met you, and b. Use what works for you, I could care less. I think you need to get over yourself a bit.
@@llothar68 I actually do donate to the X foundation and have done so for years. Same with the FSF, OSI, The distro I'm currently using, some content creators who make legitimately useful and insightful videos, 20 rhel subscriptions, and even a new library maintainers.
That was always the plan since Wayland was launched. X has basically been in LTS mode for over a decade at this point and has been basically holding the fort until Wayland can be battle hardened and ready for the majority of desktops. Only problem is, it seems that X is fizzling out a little too fast compared to Wayland's progress. Worst case scenario I wonder if Wayland would have to step in to maintain X for long enough to get the last few creases ironed out, considering a decent number of Wayland devs have worked on X.
Problem is Wayland has many people, but nobody who cares abt setting aside ego to make a usable product. They make one terrible decision after another (fron the users point of view). It's easier for the developer of course
Can't use Wayland because of apps I use. And no it's not about Discord. Steam Remote Play. It just doesn't seem to show Desktop at all. I hear the audio but my steam link client showing black screen. If that gonna be fixed, I'm definitely switching, although I see some graphical artifacts on Plasma, such as transparent and blurred konsole
As a user, Wayland is working amazing for me for a long while now. The Truth is, the major distributions like Ubuntu and Fedora and the major DE's like Gnome and KDE have already made the switch.
@@rtsa4633 Same experience here pretty much. Some things are still rough around the edges, but it's definitely more than usable for the majority of people
@@RedstoneLP2 Same. I think the major Wayland implementations are good enough for almost everyone. There's just a small minority of very loud people with (sometimes valid) niche usecases that don't work on Wayland. Then a bunch of people scared away from Wayland by the loudmouths.
You listen too much to the Wayland naysayers. All the major distros a d all the enterprise linux distros have converted to Wayland by default. The users which complain fiir the most part are misinformed, ha e not been paying attention to what the x11 developers have been saying for a decade, and dont contribute code or financial support to x11 or Wayland. That is why the development community ignores them. The fact is Wayland is ready to replace x11 and it is up to the desktops and apps to convert. And direct your Nvidia complaints to Nvidia as it is a proprietary driver and thus not the Wayland developers responsibility to support.
Depends if somebody wants to port it. If not, then a lot of old-timer Linux users will switch to OpenBSD or maybe FreeBSD (not sure if FreeBSD has it in their repositories), which will be very interesting.
True, nouveau already has better wayland support than nvidia. All that's missing is the reclocking support which the new driver has using the GSP firmware of GTX 16xx or later cards
@@speedytruckAlso Wayland PRIME support recently got fixed on NVK (nouveau OpenGL is still broken though due to not using LINEAR format modifier because of 2 commits)
Xorg to me will kinda be like "full speed usb" is. No-one in the common desktop usage will use it, but it'll always stick around as a standard because it's easy to work with and integrate. "Full speed usb" is slow as fuck, (that's full speed for USB ONE POINT ZERO, i.e. : not even usb 2 speeds) but it's also quite easy to work with and doesn't ask much. For instance, you can really only get full speed opto-isolators if you want to protect a usb port on your device, they just kneecap speed too much to be used much faster than usb 1.0. Xorg, and definitely Xwayland, will probably always be around for when you need something to just work without having to faff about sticking to strict standards, but for things people are actually going to be using consistently and intensely? We'll have wayland. Xorg is the production test model, wayland is the mass production model. Sure, only wayland may get the attention, but Xorg is always going to stick around in some capacity.
@@orbatos I have to disagree. Wayland has way more care put into security and whatnot that make it harder to work with. Yes there are APIs which help mitigate that problem, but it'll always be easier to just run in an xwayland window and bypass it altogether. That's basically what KDE is doing to fix discord right now afterall. X11 just has way more tools to hack around in it and bodge shit together that wayland doesn't. Wayland will take over for more well-built applications, but for bodging shit that works I really don't think X11 is going anywhere.
@@robonator2945 The extra security also means the API is well defined and there are tools that already do the legwork for you. Making an application support Wayland is programmatically simpler in both in that way, but also because X is such a disaster.
@@robonator2945 I have to disagree. All it takes is for discord devs to just add support for xdg-portal and use the api in their linux app, we also have existing solution like obs, zoom and wf-recorder. In a developer's prespective, there's no reason for it to be harder than x11. It's time for discord to upgrade their ancient codebase, which is the only thing that makes it "harder"
@@middyjohn so aside from the work you need to do, there isn't any work you need to do! Yeah real convincing. Ignoring that though, X11 still lets you do arbitrary tasks far easier, like sending specific keystrokes to specific windows without stealing focus and whatnot. It just has a wider selection of tools and utils that allow for more niche use cases with less programming.
for me only reason to use X is steam, since it works only on X11, and if i have to run x-server as XWayland, why not just use for entire system rather than Wayland?
Xorg is the past, although very ideal in server/client configurations so I don't support the protocol just going away. As for desktop, Wayland is a welcomed change and looing forward to it's continued development. If it can fill in where Xorg has worked well, then maybe Xorg can be depracated. I'm not an expert by any stretch. Just my current, best view of the situation.
xorg as far as i know there things Wayland can not do and will never do. I am thinking going back to an server client setup . I at one time let Once upon a time I used to have a more powerful systems running all the graphics for a lesser powered system remotely
I contributed a very, very long time ago, but I really don't want the stress involved. 20 ish meetings a year doesn't seem like a lot, but I've been a board member on a "benefactor" foundation before, and it sucks ass.
the only place I use xorg in, is a monitoring setup on a Intel NUC, that essentially hides the mouse cursor and only starts a Fullscreen chromium in Kiosk Mode. this is literally easier done than said. (no pun intended)
@@lyoneel X11 doesn't have true multimonitor support, just a hack that lets it pretend the screen is the size of both monitors. This causes glitches or weird inconsistencies often.
@@gljames24I know there are hackery there, also I know Plasma has better support/hackery to handle them, but maybe I dont have complex combinations of refresh rates and monitors, I never had any big issue really.
@@gljames24 It's more that the idea of what to do with multiple monitors changed after X11 was designed. X11 has multiple screens in one display, but people expected them to work like one, so hacks like twinview were added, then the Xinerama protocol to manage those.
I... just don't care about xorg. At all. I use it because some things don't work flawlessly on Wayland yet, but only because of that and not because I care about it. I'd imagine it's much the same for people who actually contribute to FOSS projects, everyone would rather be active in the new one over the old, decrepit one. It's like having a new car, but the old one isn't sold yet, you don't want to deal with or even see the old one because it's just not the exciting new one.
then your new car dies in The Middle Of Nowhere, Nevada on an 8 hour drive, and you regret using it instead of the old one which did this exact route perfectly. not saying anything about wayland, just trying to say that the car analogy doesn't really work that well. don't think i succeeded at that, but that's kinda expectant from a random youtube commenter.
@@generallyunimportant then replace it with a house. Or a phone. Or anything. The object wasn't the point, just that it's new and exciting. Even if it has issues, you'd rather work on it over just using the old, decrepit, boring one. Also, I really don't get why some people need analogies to be perfect one-to-one translations of the situation they're describing. They're just likening one thing to another thing, to highlight one aspect of it. It doesn't have to be perfect, just that it highlights the point that was made. In this case, that new things are more exciting and attention-grabbing even if the old one is still there.
X and Wayland should coexist, Wayland might be better for use on a desktop/phone but X runs on much more platform (For instance, illumos has no support AFAIK), is more lightweight and has compatibility for almost all the GUI *nix programs (The latest Xorg can display a program from 30 years ago proprietary UNIX just fine), and is much better to use remotely. (Just running a remote X session vs running a whole VNC server)
Sorry for the aside, but when did Australians start adopting American pronunciations? I keep hearing ‘new’ being pronounced as _noo_ instead of (the authentic Australian way) _n-yoo,_ mostly by content creators (not out in public). Has some massive shift in speech occurred?
I like X as an architecture, including network support, far more than I like Wayland. Yes, the protocol itself and the implementation are hairy and far from elegant. Wayland is a ~meh idea with a nicer, cleaner implementation. I will not be moving to it unless I am forced to somehow, at all. Nor will all the users of DE-replacement X window managers (the likes of openbox, dwm, i3 etc).
10 years ago I would've been worried, but now I know this kind of thing is not actually unusual. The Xorg software will persist no matter what happens to the Xorg Foundation. If the software stops working, someone will inevitably pick up the task of fixing it. Who knows, could be me or you. Or maybe Wayland will be good at that time. If the software doesn't stop working, the foundation isn't necessarily needed. There's plenty of barely maintained software out there that we still use.
Nvida's support for Wayland still sucks. Until NVIDIA modifies their drivers to support Wayland, Xorg will have to be maintained. I have an older Nvidia card that runs Nvidia 390 which will never see wayland support. Because of my graphics situation and I use a tiling window manager that only supports X11, that's what I'm using.
@@CristianMolina Glad it's working for you. But my CPU is an 9 year old i7-4770. So prefer avoiding gnome and using something a bit lighter. Xfce is a great default for me and I find it easy to customize.
@@gljames24 Yeah, I find a lot of Debian/Ubuntu based distros don't work well with Nvidia. I have had better luck with Arch based ones. Garuda, Arcolinux, Endeavour, and even less well known ones work well for me, but only with Xorg and not Wayland.
The foundation is pretty important in an open source project for managing these large repositories and ensuring there's a permanent engineer keeping things in line, as well as other legal stuff. Someone has to keep all the knowledge and passwords! It's a fair question though. The project is nearing EoL and the lower enthusiasm from people outside the diehard members is a sign that it might be time to prepare X11 to fizzle out.
well, yes, because wayland is just a protocol and is implemented by your greeter and compositor (gdm and mutter for gnome, sddm and kwin-wayland for kde), graphics are done through the kernel drivers
@@SabiazothPsyche in a world where all apps support wayland xorg packages wont be installed but wayland mentions also wont grow by a whole lot (wayland doesnt need all those packages like "xf86-video-amdgpu" since they contain x11 config files)
I'd like a video about why we need a display server at all. The days of the remote terminal are decades behind us for 99.9% of tasks, so why can't the the window manager handle everything (like Windows does).
The "server" name is a bit misleading, it doesn't have much to do with remote use anymore. The display server just provides a graphical environment and sits between applications (clients) and the rest of the system, handling i/o and access to system resources. With Wayland it's more or less how you describe, the window manager is the display server.
When Team Leaders don't want the Management position. Computing for the people is dead. I would start throwing rocks but all I see now is trash on the ground. edit: YT ain't respecting new lines
You, and others, keep saying x11 will be around forever. Evidence needed. Sure you can keep compiling x11 but the xorg developers have told us years ago they are unwilling or unable to continue to work on the project. And it is dieing off before our eyes. A reality check to all the Wayland deniers for sure. But considering they have ignored all the evidence in the past, just like flat earthers, I suppose they will continue to ignore this as well.
@Brodie Robertson In this video yes but historically you tend to make content claiming Wayland is not ready so I am not 100% certain where you stand. At best a late adopter as I have been using Wayland on Gnome and KDE on Fedora for years and thus I have gotten the impression, perhaps falsely, you are an x11 hold out.
@Leopard no I make videos saying it has issues, and for some people it's unusable, I'm one of only people on RUclips saying that Wayland is ready for most people. I am literally using Wayland
X is a 40 year old, battle tested protocol. If X was going to die any time soon, oh boy, it sure has survived a lot. I don't care about Wayland. If people want to use it, all the power to them, but the thing with X is, due to it's age, a lot of issues with it have been smoothed out. X as a protocol is quite literally the single most widely ported display server. Hell, even OS/2 has a damn X implementation, and disregarding the bare minimum POSIX support, OS/2 is no where close to being a UNIX. Not to mention the network transparency, which as far as I know, Wayland is not capable of, or at least doesn't have yet. In the end, if your definition of "dying software" is "this thing has been battle tested to the point of not needing feature updates anymore," then I really don't know what to tell you, because if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Dang ol', I tell ya what, man, talkin' 'bout that there Xwayland, y'know? Gonna be stickin' 'round, like, a real long time, man. It's like, one of them ol' trusty tools, y'know, but I reckon, like, maybe 50 years or somethin', might just see it slowly phasin' out, man. Y'know, technology movin' fast and all that, but dang ol' Xwayland, it's been a dang good bridge 'tween X and Wayland stuff, man. Just gotta appreciate that ol' workhorse, y'know? But, shoot, can't stay the same forever, man, gonna have some new fancy shmancy thing take its place, I reckon. So, enjoy that dang ol' Xwayland while it lasts, man, 'cause one day we'll all be tellin' our grandkids 'bout that ol' piece of tech history, I tell ya what.
"ready" is too vague, it's already ready for daily use for several scenarios. Be aware of your current issues with it and be ready to switch when(if?) they are done/fixed.
I can only talk about myself, but I'm daily driving Wayland and don't touch Xorg until I really NEED to. Everything's working perfectly (Even better than Xorg did - looking at you dual monitor setup!), I don't really need Xorg anymore.
I wish I was old enough to do something like this, but I can't. I use Wayland on my laptop (for general purpose stuff), and X on my PC (for gaming mostly). I am just wondering, why can't the free and open source community do things the Linux way? Can't we just create another display server? Because X is too big and bloated to maintain for a display server, and Wayland is too minimal for a protocol...
The next time there is an election and there are no candidates, it would be a good idea for someone to stand for election and then close the project as a director. Xorg is a dead project, the only thing there are are security patches or bug fixes.
So put your money where your mouth is and do it yourself then. It's very self-entitled to expect everyone else to do what you tell them to do whilst all you do is nothing.
![Summer Walker - Heart Of A Woman [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SFddctbZzw8/mqdefault.jpg)
Wayland is like IPv6 - the upgrade that never comes.
Which is sad because the people who originally created Xorg and worked on it since the beginning say it's a dumpster fire. It is the poster-child of shoe-horned feature-creep ball-of-mud techdebt that just won't die. The only way to fix it is to throw it out and replace it because any proper fixes will break backwards compatibility anyway.
@@BenjaminCronce sure but Wayland is endlessly in development and we needed it a decade ago by now
IPv6 is the default on my home network, (ISPs router defaults), work network, and when I was working for a university half a decade ago, we only had IPv4 as fallback
Both are upgrades that are already here, but people choose not to implement.
It's funny that this should be your example, since native IPv6 adoption has just been increasing steadily and is well over half in some countries.
Go for it, Brodie!
Brodie for (xorg) president!
@@realGBx64 First task: shut down the project
@@ingen6351 wayland protocol is also a project under xorg foundation umbrella along with mesa graphics library.
@@ingen6351 there are hundreds of thousands of lines of legacy code all over the world that depend on X11, it will not be shut down.
Press X to Doubt
I see what you did there.
This is the classic case of devs switching to the cool new things, letting old systems die before their new thing is anywhere close to ready. And there's even a chance they'll get bored with wayland and in the end all we get is two broken systems. Peak FOSS
You’re right. Peak FOSS is six broken system instead of a single working one.
I disagree Wayland was first released in 2008. We could inversely say Wayland isn't ready because everyone is still a holdout for X.
@@sylviam6535 package formats and systemd-free distros moment.
X11 was never the good old thing. It has always been just the thing that had been there. It was crap and outdated right from the start. A brain fart.
@@rosomak8244Linux users tend to stay with an outdated model even when newer ones are shown to be an improvement of it.
I'm still voting for the replacement to be named Y. If someone doesn't fork the project, which would be perfect for a project with a forked letter, I may do it myself. Deleting a lot of code after a fork still makes it a fork. Yes, it does!
Do you want to pick up Mark Thomas' project from 2004, Christoph Toshok's from 1998, or just add to the pile of overlapping names? (I'm sure there are more than these.)
"Oh, really? You and what army? " Shrek 2001
Just like X was a fork of the W windowing system.
@Madd the Sane personality I would love to see one of the x11 fans actually maintain the code or better fork it.
If it is as easy to nominate someone else as you claim, then all it takes is 1 person to nominate 20 people and you have your nomination problem solved.
The person nominated must be a member of the xorg foundation
@@BrodieRobertson And presumably they have to accept the nomination.
Sounds like my local public library board in America. An election was just held for board members, and nobody ran for the open board member set. Two other incumbents were re-elected.
There is likely a procedure in the by-laws to handle the lack of a quorum to hold board meetings, but it gets to be a bit of a headache. Maybe existing board members can appoint new members, or another election has to be held.
This is often a problem for small non-profits; the pool of interested people is far smaller because let's face it, the board members are often unpaid or un-stipended for their services of guiding the organization.
April 2nd is a Sunday. It is entirely natural to have a deadline expire 23:59 on a Sunday. I don't think avoiding April 1st was ever even a concern.
Let me have my fun lol
@@BrodieRobertson No!
I wonder if wayland is slow to solve issues is because the community has not bitten the bullet because Xorg still works. I suspect that a lot of desktop environments will not transition until basically Xorg is broken and unusable without xwayland.
if I remember right, wasn't Wayland created by Xorg developers who were tired of working with the complex Xorg codebase? it seems wayland was made to make their job easier at the cost of making the desktop environment devs jobs harder. and this second part is harming wayland adoption?
Gnome is already on Wayland
Using Pop Os right and I recently had some setbacks building a swing application. Apparently the most recent versions of Java and its libraries are being designed with Wayland in mind. Pop Os is still using X11.
Wayland is likely to go into their new Rust-based Cosmic DE they're working on.
and thats why i hate this wayland idoelogy, i CANT run wayland, if i could i would, but yeah i would probably get stuck somewhere because something was made with wayland and wayland only in mind
@Scarlet ever heard of nvidia?
@Scarlet and no, the proprietary driver doesnt work with wayland, 970 4gb pretty capable card and i cant even get a desktop when i select wayland in SDDM, i can use nouveau and maybe have a stable desktop, but good luck getting any games to work good with nouveau
@Scarlet tell me the secret, because it does not for me
No display forwarding and no pseudo-TTY? You're taking X from my cold dead hands.
I haven't used Wayland yet, but I plan to try it in the near future with Sway. It sounds like it would be a big step forward for Linux. Still, I see a lot of people poo-pooing the project, so I find myself rooting for the underdog.
Everyone who is poo-pooing it don't know what they're talking about, for the most part.
It's the usual case with Linux when something fundamental is being replaced by something that disrupts people's current workflow, even if it is ultimately better
I'm using it with Vanilla OS and I only realized that I was using it because I opened the information in the configuration. What I mean is that at least for me it's stable and no downside compared to Xorg.
@@wesleyoliveira6570 Wayland experience can vary wildly across desktop choices and hardware combinations. For example, VRR protocol: Not implemented on Gnome, works on KDE, borked on wlroots/sway.
@@excidium666 Maybe its stable for me because i'm using old hardware? Don't know how it behaves in recent or cutting edge hardware.
The only thing really stopping me from using Wayland is that I need some good support for Optimus, as o use it for gaming. Otherwise, Hyprland has all my needs in it.
Yup. This is probably the final frontier for Wayland beyond the typical slurry of edge cases and smaller/unmaintained applications.
Once all major hardware is supported at a decent level then X can die and we'll all still have a windowing system that's actively maintained, even if it's buggier and slower or whatever other issues it might still have.
So start financially supporting the developers to update to Wayland and stop expecting developers to do the work for free.
Or start coding yourself, either way stop whining.
What issues are you facing with Optimus on Hyprland? I am also using an Optimus laptop with Hyprland but haven’t faced any problems.
@@sbstratos79 this seems to be the case for most naysayers. "Wayland is buggy or doesn't support foo or bar."
Been watching some Wayland vids the past couple days and from everything I've seen, foo, bar, baz, and bat are supported.
I guess I should try to find a video made by the anti-wayland folks and see what they think is borked or isn't working for them.
Been in a position where I ran uncontested for a position, though it was a student led thing rather than something worldwide like xorg. It was a terrible idea and I was not well suited for it. Frankly, I'm not convinced that anybody should run unopposed for any elected position.
What I kinda wanna do is do a full rewrite of xorg while using the original header files and everything to maintain compatibility. The really difficult thing is all the applications xorg uses are different packages and different source code, and I don't even know if I would be allowed to do such a project. I wanna see X11 or some fork thrive as much as Wayland probably will.
Yeah, do that and name it X12
Honestly a rewrite of x11 would be so much better than the piece of garbage Wayland is
@@AndRei-yc3ti Feel free
@@AndRei-yc3ti Wayland is the rewrite :)
@@speedytruck if by rewrite you mean a complete paradigm shift
i run xorg rn because nvidia-390xx is painful on wayland, according to my really limited reasearch which literally was reading a few wiki pages, and also 'cuz i don't _really_ see a reason at this moment in time to change my pc.
except maybe to run windows games under linux so i can stop using windows, that'd be awesome.
on an unrelated note, i love how the supporters' names and tiers now don't exist until like 2 seconds after switching into the scene. file loading, mayhaps?
brodie: That's going to be it for me, and... *moves closer to mic* _im running hyprland_
I was just watching Log Horizon Season 3 until episode 2 and their round table conference being over/disbanded and I know this has nothing to do with the situation with xorg foundation but I am getting the vibes anyway :p
Reminded me of episode 1 of overlord.
Are they paid? If yes, how much? The chances would increase if there were some monetary compensation. Ideally would to do it just because you care, but desperate times...
That is the difference, my guess it is zero...
Unlike Linux CLI that lives in server space and has the big bucks thrown at it for companies, the desktop with X and Wayland is totally enthusiast run.
If the big corps needs a desktop, they run to Microsoft while Linux powers their backend, and they get the best of both worlds.
And people wonder why I say I can't be bothered to deal with Linux until Wayland is ready. I have issues with xorg and from all I can tell xorg itself is sort of just...in maintenence mode? So yeah, that's why I'm waiting on wayland
Wayland already works for me - screensharing works (Slack, Skype in browser). Sway is good enough, everything except few applications run as Wayland clients. Intel integrated GPU.
I don't wonder - I've never heard of you before you posted this comment here. Why should I care whether or not you use Linux?
a. I've never met you, and
b. Use what works for you, I could care less.
I think you need to get over yourself a bit.
Most virtual machines show trouble, when it comes to Wayland guest systems.
It's sad to see no one left at Xorg that seems to care enough to actually manage the project.
Do you care enough to pay them money? No, me neither.
Same thing what happened with xfree86 that split back in 2003 2004
@@llothar68 I actually do donate to the X foundation and have done so for years. Same with the FSF, OSI, The distro I'm currently using, some content creators who make legitimately useful and insightful videos, 20 rhel subscriptions, and even a new library maintainers.
That was always the plan since Wayland was launched. X has basically been in LTS mode for over a decade at this point and has been basically holding the fort until Wayland can be battle hardened and ready for the majority of desktops.
Only problem is, it seems that X is fizzling out a little too fast compared to Wayland's progress. Worst case scenario I wonder if Wayland would have to step in to maintain X for long enough to get the last few creases ironed out, considering a decent number of Wayland devs have worked on X.
Problem is Wayland has many people, but nobody who cares abt setting aside ego to make a usable product. They make one terrible decision after another (fron the users point of view). It's easier for the developer of course
Nobody wants to maintain xorg and everyone wants to maintain their own personal wayland implementation. Don't know what's worse right now.
Can't use Wayland because of apps I use. And no it's not about Discord. Steam Remote Play. It just doesn't seem to show Desktop at all. I hear the audio but my steam link client showing black screen. If that gonna be fixed, I'm definitely switching, although I see some graphical artifacts on Plasma, such as transparent and blurred konsole
so to roughly sum up the video: no user wants to run Wayland, no Dev wants to run xorg
As a user, Wayland is working amazing for me for a long while now. The Truth is, the major distributions like Ubuntu and Fedora and the major DE's like Gnome and KDE have already made the switch.
@@rtsa4633 Same experience here pretty much. Some things are still rough around the edges, but it's definitely more than usable for the majority of people
@@RedstoneLP2 Same. I think the major Wayland implementations are good enough for almost everyone. There's just a small minority of very loud people with (sometimes valid) niche usecases that don't work on Wayland. Then a bunch of people scared away from Wayland by the loudmouths.
You listen too much to the Wayland naysayers. All the major distros a d all the enterprise linux distros have converted to Wayland by default.
The users which complain fiir the most part are misinformed, ha e not been paying attention to what the x11 developers have been saying for a decade, and dont contribute code or financial support to x11 or Wayland.
That is why the development community ignores them.
The fact is Wayland is ready to replace x11 and it is up to the desktops and apps to convert.
And direct your Nvidia complaints to Nvidia as it is a proprietary driver and thus not the Wayland developers responsibility to support.
@@leopard3131 I was poking fun at exactly those kind of people.
This is my comment. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.
My comment is my life. It is my friend. I am nothing without my comment!
--Riflemen's creed, this specific quote taken from Full Metal Jacket.
OpenBSD xenocara might just become the mainline X server.
Depends if somebody wants to port it. If not, then a lot of old-timer Linux users will switch to OpenBSD or maybe FreeBSD (not sure if FreeBSD has it in their repositories), which will be very interesting.
The funny thing is that isn't even that far off being true, I've got a video about xenocara I should upload at some point
@@BrodieRobertson Interesting... Really looking forward to it!
@@sprinklednights No, xenocara isn't in the FreeBSD Ports Collection.
@@katrinabryce Alright, thanks for letting me know
OpenBSD is doing just that... in form of Xenocara.
Xenocara isn’t a fork of Xorg
@@classicrockonly > Acts like a fork > "It's not a fork"
mememan.hmmm.jpg
nouveau is going to become more and more viable because of NVK's good progression 🐸
True, nouveau already has better wayland support than nvidia. All that's missing is the reclocking support which the new driver has using the GSP firmware of GTX 16xx or later cards
@@speedytruckAlso Wayland PRIME support recently got fixed on NVK (nouveau OpenGL is still broken though due to not using LINEAR format modifier because of 2 commits)
Xorg to me will kinda be like "full speed usb" is. No-one in the common desktop usage will use it, but it'll always stick around as a standard because it's easy to work with and integrate. "Full speed usb" is slow as fuck, (that's full speed for USB ONE POINT ZERO, i.e. : not even usb 2 speeds) but it's also quite easy to work with and doesn't ask much. For instance, you can really only get full speed opto-isolators if you want to protect a usb port on your device, they just kneecap speed too much to be used much faster than usb 1.0. Xorg, and definitely Xwayland, will probably always be around for when you need something to just work without having to faff about sticking to strict standards, but for things people are actually going to be using consistently and intensely? We'll have wayland.
Xorg is the production test model, wayland is the mass production model. Sure, only wayland may get the attention, but Xorg is always going to stick around in some capacity.
Once X is no longer the standard building for it will not be easy, it's a disaster and by comparison Wayland or even raw fb are easier.
@@orbatos I have to disagree. Wayland has way more care put into security and whatnot that make it harder to work with. Yes there are APIs which help mitigate that problem, but it'll always be easier to just run in an xwayland window and bypass it altogether. That's basically what KDE is doing to fix discord right now afterall.
X11 just has way more tools to hack around in it and bodge shit together that wayland doesn't. Wayland will take over for more well-built applications, but for bodging shit that works I really don't think X11 is going anywhere.
@@robonator2945 The extra security also means the API is well defined and there are tools that already do the legwork for you. Making an application support Wayland is programmatically simpler in both in that way, but also because X is such a disaster.
@@robonator2945 I have to disagree. All it takes is for discord devs to just add support for xdg-portal and use the api in their linux app, we also have existing solution like obs, zoom and wf-recorder. In a developer's prespective, there's no reason for it to be harder than x11. It's time for discord to upgrade their ancient codebase, which is the only thing that makes it "harder"
@@middyjohn so aside from the work you need to do, there isn't any work you need to do!
Yeah real convincing. Ignoring that though, X11 still lets you do arbitrary tasks far easier, like sending specific keystrokes to specific windows without stealing focus and whatnot. It just has a wider selection of tools and utils that allow for more niche use cases with less programming.
My Ubuntu 22.04 uses Wayland apparently. Seems to work fine.
my Ubuntu 22.10 with Wayland AND Pipewire is working fine, I never encountered a single problem, without Pipewire I couldn't screen cast, now I can
for me only reason to use X is steam, since it works only on X11, and if i have to run x-server as XWayland, why not just use for entire system rather than Wayland?
Xorg is the past, although very ideal in server/client configurations so I don't support the protocol just going away. As for desktop, Wayland is a welcomed change and looing forward to it's continued development. If it can fill in where Xorg has worked well, then maybe Xorg can be depracated. I'm not an expert by any stretch. Just my current, best view of the situation.
i still use remote x apps, till wayland does that stabilly, not budging.
xorg as far as i know there things Wayland can not do and will never do. I am thinking going back to an server client setup . I at one time let Once upon a time I used to have a more powerful systems running all the graphics for a lesser powered system remotely
I contributed a very, very long time ago, but I really don't want the stress involved. 20 ish meetings a year doesn't seem like a lot, but I've been a board member on a "benefactor" foundation before, and it sucks ass.
the only place I use xorg in, is a monitoring setup on a Intel NUC, that essentially hides the mouse cursor and only starts a Fullscreen chromium in Kiosk Mode.
this is literally easier done than said. (no pun intended)
x11 doesn't really need updates unless there is a security flaw. its a battle-tested protocol that just works
There is no way to use wayland on a laptop, touchpad driver is just trash, and randomly crashes, I work in my laptop and wayland is unacceptable.
Is Xorg Foundation open to contributors or it's very hard to open a PR ?
Super easy, barely an inconvenience. They have their own Gitlab and would welcome help with pretty much anything there.
@@BartMassey-PO8 Nice reference there. :D
I hope Xenocara keeps being ported to Linux, tons of stuff I use just does not support Wayland and I don't even like compositing
I may wish to port it to FreeBSD. X still runs as root there too.
@@ellenorbjornsdottir1166 That would be great!
Apparently Hyperbola Linux is using Xenocara
Brodie, i would vote for you
this is your forte'
I'm interested in the future of the xorg foundation. I would like to lay down some flowers on it's thumb.
I use Wayland whenever possible due to better multi monitor support. Like X11 has TERRIBLE multi-monitor support!
Whats wrong with X11 multi-monitor?
@@lyoneel X11 doesn't have true multimonitor support, just a hack that lets it pretend the screen is the size of both monitors. This causes glitches or weird inconsistencies often.
@James Garrard Correct. And forget about different monitors with different refresh rates!
@@gljames24I know there are hackery there, also I know Plasma has better support/hackery to handle them, but maybe I dont have complex combinations of refresh rates and monitors, I never had any big issue really.
@@gljames24 It's more that the idea of what to do with multiple monitors changed after X11 was designed. X11 has multiple screens in one display, but people expected them to work like one, so hacks like twinview were added, then the Xinerama protocol to manage those.
I... just don't care about xorg. At all. I use it because some things don't work flawlessly on Wayland yet, but only because of that and not because I care about it. I'd imagine it's much the same for people who actually contribute to FOSS projects, everyone would rather be active in the new one over the old, decrepit one. It's like having a new car, but the old one isn't sold yet, you don't want to deal with or even see the old one because it's just not the exciting new one.
then your new car dies in The Middle Of Nowhere, Nevada on an 8 hour drive, and you regret using it instead of the old one which did this exact route perfectly.
not saying anything about wayland, just trying to say that the car analogy doesn't really work that well.
don't think i succeeded at that, but that's kinda expectant from a random youtube commenter.
@@generallyunimportant then replace it with a house. Or a phone. Or anything. The object wasn't the point, just that it's new and exciting. Even if it has issues, you'd rather work on it over just using the old, decrepit, boring one.
Also, I really don't get why some people need analogies to be perfect one-to-one translations of the situation they're describing. They're just likening one thing to another thing, to highlight one aspect of it. It doesn't have to be perfect, just that it highlights the point that was made. In this case, that new things are more exciting and attention-grabbing even if the old one is still there.
@@FengLengshun meanie
I would run but have literally none of the qualifications. I should fix that
Troubling. Their last annual reports were in 2017.
X and Wayland should coexist, Wayland might be better for use on a desktop/phone but X runs on much more platform (For instance, illumos has no support AFAIK), is more lightweight and has compatibility for almost all the GUI *nix programs (The latest Xorg can display a program from 30 years ago proprietary UNIX just fine), and is much better to use remotely. (Just running a remote X session vs running a whole VNC server)
Sorry for the aside, but when did Australians start adopting American pronunciations? I keep hearing ‘new’ being pronounced as _noo_ instead of (the authentic Australian way) _n-yoo,_ mostly by content creators (not out in public). Has some massive shift in speech occurred?
I like X as an architecture, including network support, far more than I like Wayland. Yes, the protocol itself and the implementation are hairy and far from elegant. Wayland is a ~meh idea with a nicer, cleaner implementation. I will not be moving to it unless I am forced to somehow, at all. Nor will all the users of DE-replacement X window managers (the likes of openbox, dwm, i3 etc).
10 years ago I would've been worried, but now I know this kind of thing is not actually unusual. The Xorg software will persist no matter what happens to the Xorg Foundation. If the software stops working, someone will inevitably pick up the task of fixing it. Who knows, could be me or you. Or maybe Wayland will be good at that time. If the software doesn't stop working, the foundation isn't necessarily needed. There's plenty of barely maintained software out there that we still use.
Sneaky outro :P you definitely need to talk to vaxry for an interview :P
edit: comment aged like milk, the talk has already happened -> tech over tea.
I think you need a new milk supplier if it goes off in a couple of minutes
Xorg is like TF2, nobody wants to work on it...
Nvida's support for Wayland still sucks. Until NVIDIA modifies their drivers to support Wayland, Xorg will have to be maintained.
I have an older Nvidia card that runs Nvidia 390 which will never see wayland support. Because of my graphics situation and I use a tiling window manager that only supports X11, that's what I'm using.
This is what those big companies making tons of money with Linux should be doing, provide or hire staff to do it.
I still use Xorg in the form of Xenocara
I nominate Robert Brodieson.
Yet, casting videos to chromecast still sucks on wayland😂 and what about X11-forwarding? Never change a winning team.
I wonder what Richard Stallman thinks of this.
Wayland does not play well with my Nvidia system, otherwise I would switch to it.
I used it with an NVidia card (gtx 1650 + Gnome) and dual monitor without notable issues
@@CristianMolina What about configuring the fan speed?
Literally the only thing holding me back right now and I couldn't find any solutions
Nvidia just has issues in general. There are some games that run fine on my AMD apu that don't work at all on my RTX 3070 ti on both display servers.
@@CristianMolina
Glad it's working for you. But my CPU is an 9 year old i7-4770. So prefer avoiding gnome and using something a bit lighter. Xfce is a great default for me and I find it easy to customize.
@@gljames24
Yeah, I find a lot of Debian/Ubuntu based distros don't work well with Nvidia. I have had better luck with Arch based ones. Garuda, Arcolinux, Endeavour, and even less well known ones work well for me, but only with Xorg and not Wayland.
I’m in for the results
recommendations don't make sense anymore. not even 1 minute that the video is online XD. at least I would be the first to enjoy it
The videos will show up in RSS the fastest actually.
Fine I'll do it who's xorg isn't that the bad guy from toy story?
Zurg.
X is still very important and very relevant, and many people still rely on it for stability. Wayland isn't ready yet, it's too early for X to die.
Maybe they should hand over Xorg to the community and give up the Foundation idea.
The foundation is pretty important in an open source project for managing these large repositories and ensuring there's a permanent engineer keeping things in line, as well as other legal stuff. Someone has to keep all the knowledge and passwords!
It's a fair question though. The project is nearing EoL and the lower enthusiasm from people outside the diehard members is a sign that it might be time to prepare X11 to fizzle out.
But there is no "community" to carry the torch. No developer has stepped forward and no community is willing to give financial support.
But I am still using xorg on Ubuntu 22.04
I wonder if Half-Life 4 will run on Wayland.
If there's one thing that my Being notices, is that "xorg" receives a lot more updates and upgrades than "wayland" for my Ubuntu desktop OS.
well, yes, because wayland is just a protocol and is implemented by your greeter and compositor (gdm and mutter for gnome, sddm and kwin-wayland for kde), graphics are done through the kernel drivers
@@im_tem Will "Wayland" eventually replace "X11" entirely?
@@SabiazothPsyche in a world where all apps support wayland xorg packages wont be installed but wayland mentions also wont grow by a whole lot (wayland doesnt need all those packages like "xf86-video-amdgpu" since they contain x11 config files)
It's just like academia, they're members to say they are members and not contribute in meaningful ways.
Pffft Wayland's been "Almost ready to use" for the last 10 years
I'd like a video about why we need a display server at all. The days of the remote terminal are decades behind us for 99.9% of tasks, so why can't the the window manager handle everything (like Windows does).
The "server" name is a bit misleading, it doesn't have much to do with remote use anymore. The display server just provides a graphical environment and sits between applications (clients) and the rest of the system, handling i/o and access to system resources. With Wayland it's more or less how you describe, the window manager is the display server.
@@excidium666 Then what does Wayland do? If there's no server and client software, then there's no communication for the protocol to dictate.
What are the prizes if I win ?🤔
People still try to run nVidia on Linux? Geeze, I learned that lesson a decade ago
don't they want to be nice now and make open source drivers?
Sooo... Who's gonna nominate probono? 🤣
Bring back Sunview. X11 has been nothing but bloat since X11R3. ;)
When Team Leaders don't want the Management position.
Computing for the people is dead. I would start throwing rocks but all I see now is trash on the ground.
edit: YT ain't respecting new lines
Mozilla need to update thunderbird flatpak
probono should have applied.
I run Hyprland, btw.
time for wayland i guess
I'm going to use wayland when x11 dies.
Well, let's message RedHat for it
is that a Nyanner's T-Shirt?
was looking for this comment
Please please please follow up on this!
2050 will be the year of the Linux desktop
Nvidia is not getting any better, being updating the driver weekly and i still cant even get a desktop on wayland
If you move to Wayland after watching a video on RUclips, you're going to regret it.
I vote for Brodie...
all politics no code, why would anyone want to get involved with a project like that
Brodie,
You remind me of Luke Smith... Just a much better version. 😅.
And more hair. 😁
You, and others, keep saying x11 will be around forever.
Evidence needed.
Sure you can keep compiling x11 but the xorg developers have told us years ago they are unwilling or unable to continue to work on the project.
And it is dieing off before our eyes.
A reality check to all the Wayland deniers for sure.
But considering they have ignored all the evidence in the past, just like flat earthers, I suppose they will continue to ignore this as well.
Did you see the start of the video though? I agree with you
@Brodie Robertson In this video yes but historically you tend to make content claiming Wayland is not ready so I am not 100% certain where you stand. At best a late adopter as I have been using Wayland on Gnome and KDE on Fedora for years and thus I have gotten the impression, perhaps falsely, you are an x11 hold out.
@Leopard no I make videos saying it has issues, and for some people it's unusable, I'm one of only people on RUclips saying that Wayland is ready for most people. I am literally using Wayland
@Brodie Robertson my mistake then apologies seems my impression was wrong.
X is a 40 year old, battle tested protocol. If X was going to die any time soon, oh boy, it sure has survived a lot.
I don't care about Wayland. If people want to use it, all the power to them, but the thing with X is, due to it's age, a lot of issues with it have been smoothed out.
X as a protocol is quite literally the single most widely ported display server. Hell, even OS/2 has a damn X implementation, and disregarding the bare minimum POSIX support, OS/2 is no where close to being a UNIX.
Not to mention the network transparency, which as far as I know, Wayland is not capable of, or at least doesn't have yet. In the end, if your definition of "dying software" is "this thing has been battle tested to the point of not needing feature updates anymore," then I really don't know what to tell you, because if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The time of X12 has come...
Wayland
I'll do it, pay me.
Dang ol', I tell ya what, man, talkin' 'bout that there Xwayland, y'know? Gonna be stickin' 'round, like, a real long time, man. It's like, one of them ol' trusty tools, y'know, but I reckon, like, maybe 50 years or somethin', might just see it slowly phasin' out, man.
Y'know, technology movin' fast and all that, but dang ol' Xwayland, it's been a dang good bridge 'tween X and Wayland stuff, man. Just gotta appreciate that ol' workhorse, y'know? But, shoot, can't stay the same forever, man, gonna have some new fancy shmancy thing take its place, I reckon.
So, enjoy that dang ol' Xwayland while it lasts, man, 'cause one day we'll all be tellin' our grandkids 'bout that ol' piece of tech history, I tell ya what.
This reads like you gave ChatGPT-4 a prompt to write about XWayland in an old timey southern hick style voice. Hilarious.
@@shaun1243 Sounds like Boomhauer from KotH.
I am no developer, but I can take the lead of Xorg
Me neither and you have my vote.
X is a dramatic and unfixable mess. This is not the first time it has had no developers or oversight.
i'll switch to wayland when it's ready
"ready" is too vague, it's already ready for daily use for several scenarios. Be aware of your current issues with it and be ready to switch when(if?) they are done/fixed.
what's currently missing in your opinion? I didn't run into anything that I'm missing myself.
I can only talk about myself, but I'm daily driving Wayland and don't touch Xorg until I really NEED to. Everything's working perfectly (Even better than Xorg did - looking at you dual monitor setup!), I don't really need Xorg anymore.
I wish I was old enough to do something like this, but I can't.
I use Wayland on my laptop (for general purpose stuff), and X on my PC (for gaming mostly).
I am just wondering, why can't the free and open source community do things the Linux way? Can't we just create another display server? Because X is too big and bloated to maintain for a display server, and Wayland is too minimal for a protocol...
maybe starting with a minimal protocol and adding what is strictly necessary is a good way to go
How is Wayland too minimal?
@@CristianMolina I agree, but in Wayland's case, it seems like they would want to stay more minimal. At least from my understanding.
@@Cookiekeks From my understanding, Wayland is a lot more minimal than X as Wayland, unlike X, is a protocol and not a display server.
@@sprinklednights X11 is also a display server protocol, it's just that it has only one (surviving) implementation, xorg
I nominate probonopd!
Hell ya Hyprland Hype
The next time there is an election and there are no candidates, it would be a good idea for someone to stand for election and then close the project as a director. Xorg is a dead project, the only thing there are are security patches or bug fixes.
So put your money where your mouth is and do it yourself then. It's very self-entitled to expect everyone else to do what you tell them to do whilst all you do is nothing.