What Are Vassal Predators? A Study of Trophic Levels in Kaimeran Ecology
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Vassal Predators is a term put forth by Assembly naturalist André Durand in the 1800's when he used the analogy of feudalism to describe ecosystems. It's a similar premise to food chain pyramids used today. In his analogy, our apex predators like tigers and wolves are the lower nobility, the vassals of the monarch are the terror birds and giant cockatrices, while the megaraptorans are the monarchs. While Durand himself argued against the analogy later in his career, it remains in use to this day, in no small part because it affords greater nobility to our apex predators in Kaimere's ecology than simply regarding them as mesopredators.
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For every king on his throne there is a dozens of princes waiting for his rule to end, and theirs to begin.
This quote goes hard actually 🔥🔥🔥
I love the bit of history with Durand's framework being favored and often pushed by the high classes. It definitely reflects the history of natural sciences on Earth, with there being "appeals to nature" and misconceptions about dominance run amok. This relationship between nature, the science we use to describe it, and how our human lens and society affects or is affected by the prior two, is such an important but often overlooked part of worldbuilding.
My favorite part of Kaimere is always how real it is!
Thank you! Yeah I wanted to be clear that it's an analogy, not a set rule or natural law, but that the analogy really landed with the other researchers and their bias is why it's so favored today
@@TalesofKaimere Really reminds me of when that one researcher studying wolves classified the alpha, beta, omega system while studying stranger wolves only to say meany years on that he was wrong but human culture took it in various directions he couldn't possibly imagine 😂😂😂.
@@sairajmenon556 While not a direct reference to Dr. Mech, his description and regret was indeed influential in Dr. Durant!
Kaimeran naturalists, implicitly:
“Our animals could totally beat up your animals.”
The real irony is that is that all of their cool animals come from earth.
Tbf they have dinosaurs
@@Stooltoad5017
wrong. magik.
@@transnewt Magic is among a few exceptions. Besides, they would rather import flora and fauna from earth than grow into something better themselves.
One thing I really like about this system is how it approximates the Titan Gardens and Houze Prairie well but begins to falter even in other parts of the Known World. It's a really nice touch of how the Assembly is centric around its nearby habitats.
(Anyways, while you're reading comments, shameless "plug" for my comments on the Burud and Moørkutlot (new thought I had) videos )
Absolutely. I wanted to emphasize that these terms aren't real, just labels humans make up to try and efficiently educate and understand ecology.
Yup! They're on my list just doing quick replies first.
@@TalesofKaimere Does the Great Library have any analogous term/system they use for ecosystem classification?
@@loisonnut It have.
Justly the Durand system speak in this video and our current system.
Which both are actually the exact same one.
With just the Durand system using synonyms to refer to/instead of the common terms use in our Earth.
Mesopredators = Knights
Vassal Predators = Medium predators
Kings or Monarchs = Apex predators.
The words and terms use change, but the system in question not si much, even if at all.
That title art of the Harkundi and the Uktan goes incredibly hard.
Thank you!
I am very much appreciative of a video explaining vassal predators.
Glad to hear it!
Excellent episode and its great to see this topic covered. Kaimere is truely fascinating place and looking forward to meeting the cast of the Northern hemisphere Marine ecosystem episode on Tuesday.
Thank you!
Yes! More ecology facts trought the lens in Kaimere. Thank u
You're most welcome!
Neat to have a more general episode about Kaimeran terminology. It's a fun excuse to talk about the overall ecologies of different areas
Absolutely!
Doctor Durand's logic around human kingdom's and the animal kingdom is pretty darn interesting. You introduced vassal predators in your Terror Birds video and I've been intrigued by the trophic level ever since.
Very cool. Would love an episode on Niche Partitioning between the large animals as an episode since that's what I study for my masters.
Would be great! Helpful in explaining why there's so many predators in the titan garden, which at first glance looks like it should have higher populations but lower biodiversity given its productivity.
@@TalesofKaimereTitan Gardens aren't stated as very productives biomes ?
Also, it would be more about "Helpful to explain why there so much predators species merged togethers in a restricted place without destroying quickly each others.
i love this delve into history and society like this.
Kaimer to me feels like a planet wide version of Skull Island combines with the hollow earth from the monsterverse that was raised to live life like its the mideval ages, i like it a lot, keep up the astonishing work.
Thank you so much for this great surprise. This explanation is just amazing my friend. Tbh, I don't think that the current Apex Predators of Kaimere are there by luck alone tbh. They got their shot, and they earned it.
Anyways, I think that I figured out the Megaraptoran mystery. Thanatobates evolved from a K-selection ancestor. I mean, the Chuka is more similar to their Uktan cousin than a Zentaur, so it's not a coincidence... Their cousin is probably the same, maybe?
I wonder about the Vassals of Kairul and wonderful predators exist in that giant continent which is closer to Afro Eurasia than Eurasia in size....
Let's hope they can explore it one day, for in exactly seventy two hours, we will have the most dangerous dive in all of history of Sophont beings! Let's hope we make it!
What a perfect present so close to my own birthday, and I must once again thank you for that.
But I wonder if we'll have a documentary like the wonderful ballad of Ka'Hai?
i am loving this history of the assembly/ sciences on kaimere
This is a really amazing video, as it helps explain ecology in a manner that makes the world seem very alive. I do wonder how much this applies to Kaishel as the Silent Ones are smaller than the monarchs of the known world not to mention other areas.
Thank you! Yeah the system definitely falls apart in a lot of regions. It's a system they use to explain predator relationships in some ecosystems, but certainly isn't 'real' in the strictest sense.
@@TalesofKaimere If I may ask what would be the vassal predators to the silent ones? if they even have such an analogue would it be like the snaphounds/other heterotherms that live in their shadows or does some other group hold that title
Actually not, this system work also fot this region as well
Whatever the size of the predator in question, an apex predator is an animal at the top of the food chain which can kill and hunt most if not all the creatures inhabiting its own ecosystemand which have few to none natural predators when adult.
Being the apex predators, the Silent Ones are the current Kings/Monarchs of Kaishel.
While the others predators, whatever Heterotherm or not, range from Vassal/Medium predators to Mesopredators.
I take it the adzakoordu might be a vassal predator to the dire otter, ketlrek, nokutlok, silent one, and snow king. If the adzakoordu turns out to be an apex predator, then I take it that the snap hound would be a vassal predator.
Like that we got a video explaining this term.
You could also do this for the Morrison and Huicul Formations. You could probably do a similar smaller version for North America during the last ice age. It would be interesting to see the rankings.
Honestly, when it comes to the question of “Who will inherit the rank of apex predator when the megaraptorans die out”.
My moneys on the cockatrices.
Unfortunately, terror birds are restricted in terms of maximum size, thanks in part to the lack of a long boney tail for balance.
So theyll remain vassal predators, along with any of the predators who survive alongside.
Always fun to find out how systems of understanding or classification get there start. I also love how the creator viewed the the relationship between a ruler and the kingdom.
May have to borrow that
Go for it!
We also forget that the apex predator of earth are humans. We eat and hunt all the other listed apex predators to a point where we control their population size and we are animals. I get that Keenan understands this very well, just a reminder for others.
Absolutely. I intentionally didn't include humans in this because while we heavily influence our ecosystem, I wouldn't say our participation follows the conventional roles of an apex predator. We're far more influential than them.
@@TalesofKaimere that's true. What trophic level would we even be? With out advanced farming and genentic technology we can even fill the role of producers if we have to. Then again, what's a king to an emperor >:)
@@TalesofKaimere Agree. Also for two worthnoty points.
1. Us, human, don't really live in the middle of the wild and Nature, even for the most basic and primitive settlements all around the world and in now a pretty apart, artigical world we made ourselves. Without facing or hunting directly and/or in a fair way others animals and impacting Nature and being impacted by itself at a normal level and now an unnatural one.
Because if that, as we don't really fit anymore within Nature in the first place, adding ourselves in the food chain pyramid on a given ecosystem would be irrelevant and just a foreign element easily spotted at the middle of a open and wide room.
At a mondial level to put forward that our species is actually indeed at the highest above all others species as the most successfull and advanced, it's okay.
But if you talk about a specific place such the African Savannah or Amazonian Rainforest, having always ourselves as the top apex species everywhere would be boring and don't help to understand clearly and completely these ecosystems in question.
2. Regarding Kaimere, as Kaimeran and others Humans species avoid as possible others predators, are at a Cavemen to Middle Age level following the cultures and are regulary regulated by the numerous predators of the planet, they don't have much of an effect at all on Kaimere's Nature despite being present everywhere on all landmasses.
In the same time, if Kaimeran and others Humans species have to be included in the pyramidal system, they are directly just Mesopredators/Knights.
As they don't hunt a lot animal larger than themselves, mostly smaller ones. Are unable to face against medium/vassal predators and the apex/kings predators, being even killed and hunted frequently by others Mesopredators/Knights species.
This due to being small, have any real physical trait or ability to defend themselves without the use of tools (which in this planet are basic/primitives ones).
So, yes, including humans in Kaimere's differents food chains isn't very relevant because of all these points.
When a naming system works to communicate an idea, it has done its job even if the person who made it later thinks it childish.
Absolutely. He considered it an oversimplification, but it did a good job of summarizing and educating a lot of later Assembly naturalists.
Durand was cooking with his observations and classifications
On modern earth vassals are very rare and usually only exist in regions with intact faunal guilds (like sub-saharan africa and southern asia).
Quite a few modern apex predators like wolves, pumas and jaguars would have been vassals to larger predators like smilodon and cave lions during the pleistocene.
Absolutely. While I don't advocate for the analogy in formal situations, I do think it could be useful in explaining how predators like leopards and cheetahs interact with lions and hyenas. Calling them mesopredators feels disingenuous, but they're not particularly large or dominant when interacting with regional top predators. I do think wolves and puma are an interesting case of the vassal predators under American lions and later Smilodon species being apex predators in modern times.
When are you making a crocodilians of kaimere video?? That would be fire
All of March is about crocs!
@@TalesofKaimere also question beyond the known world have any deinocheirus relatives survived till the Present day it's one of my favorites so Im curious
Purely based on tropic levels, Spotted Hyenas are the Apex predators of the African plains & the prehistoric Mammoth Steppe & not Lions. Since Hyenas commonly feed on Lions while Lions will almost never feed on Hyenas. Also apparently on the Mammoth Steppe the presents of Hyenas would actually effect the type of prey Lions would select, with Lions selecting for smaller prey in areas where Hyenas were present. I'm not sure if modern African Lions have the same thing going on with Spotted Hyenas, but its interesting to look into.
This is awesome
I wonder if you can make a video about the beast folk
It’s on the agenda!
Apes predators of the Permian continent are probably flightless enantiornitheans and griffins. Speaking of which, what would be the vassal predators of the Permian landmasses?
Don’t matter if your apex or mid as long you maintain the herbivores population that’s good enough
Indeed
id like to use this (or a similar system) for my own works, though slightly modified.
apex is still a useful term, and a monarch must still defer to leviathans and gods where either is present
I was going to ask if you saying that the zanitel is not the apex predator of the northern seas was a mistake, but considering you've been showing of an image of two motomazor fighting a short necked plesiosaur in front of an iceberg for the past two videos, I think I got my answer.
Ok good to know thank's keen
I thought this was some obscure biology term used in the past as i had seen many other speculative projects and some friends of mine use it, but now i see it all started in kaimere xd
Haha yup! Just made up by me to add some layers to the niches
i guess under this system smaller predators like badgers, weasels, etc would be something like baronets and mayors lol.
Another surprise upload!?
Yup! When I got some time and something to say, it's nice to throw something together. This one had very little new art, just a pair of sketches, and most of the script was notes from over a decade ago, so only took a few hours to put together!
@@TalesofKaimere My dear friend, it was amazing!
On what Biome does the Bokudo mainly exist and would they be considered monarchs or vassals?
Females in forest, males are pretty mobile. They don’t really fit the model, as males are generally apex predators but females are prey to several predator species
Also i'm just curious if there is any centuars in kaimere
None currently planned but some beastfolk Homunculi might be similar
Invasive Species?
Uktan Vs Tyrannosaurus Rex, who would win?
T. rex. Much more powerful bite and a lot more experience fighting other theropods
Where would humans be on the trophic level of Kaimere?
Somewhere in the middle. Kaimerans don't eat megaraptorans and terror birds, though most in the known world at least are not themselves prey, so apex predator fits at least in those regions. In the hinterlands, definitely amongst the knights
Megaraptorans and terror birds taste like chicken I bet@@TalesofKaimere
@@TalesofKaimereSo Mesopredators for the most part almost everywhere.
Not surprising, that what mostly most humans species in real-life actually were most of the time either.
Wait did you make the meg longer like in the paper?
No. I’ve spoken with someone working on a rebuttal paper. Can’t say much but I’m holding off on a meg redesign
@@TalesofKaimere oh, that's interesting
Humans: but what about us?
Oh we throw the whole system for a loop but that's just what we do
nice
YEEEEEEEEEES
Who would be considered the vassals in the Permian islands
Subadult dragons
@@TalesofKaimere what about the Permian continent
@@rylanbrewer3320 The vassal system doesn't apply there.
İ drawed a plant,Earth ancestor are a palm!!
Many vassal predators would be considered top order carnivore due to to there impacts on prey
Indeed. It’s not a technical term.
@@TalesofKaimere a mesopredator in kaimere would be any thing below the top order carnivore monarchs and vassal predators of similar size
@@rylanbrewer3320 By some definitions, perhaps. Some Assembly ecologists prefer mesopredator continue to describe animals that hunt much smaller prey like raccoons and skunks. These are subjective terms after all.
I have a question, you once told me that comododragon don't exist in kaimere because of reasonable reasons like dinosaur 🦖🦖 like megaraptorans so are the comododragon and megalina never harvested from earth
They were harvested but don't established.
Because they were unable to face local predators directly or over food, and to change of niche because of they biology and presence of others predators filling all the niches available.
This two monitor lizards have been already several time asked before, and the response is still always the same.
were there any vassal predators during the tyrant dynasty or did juvenile tyrannosaurs fill them all?
There absolutely were. Probably should have had a segment on this! In Arvel, megaraptorans were the vassal predators. In Ni'Khar and Kairul, it was entelodonts, abelisaurids, large cockatrices, and juvenile/small species of tyrant
@@TalesofKaimere Well, that mean Megaraptors had a very good and successfull time back then, as they had an almost entire exclusivity over this very precised niche that is the Medium/Vassal predator.
As there weren't all these numerous Late Cretaceous-Oligocene clades at the same time over one single trophic level niche...
Still personnally wonder what others clades of animals Megaraptors coexisted along with back during the Tyrants Dynasty when Arvel was isolated from Ni'Khar and Carcharodontosaurs were still alive and the Apex-Kings of this continent.
As Carcharodontosaurs and Megaraptors as sole clades of theropods for all the possible predatory trophics level niches is odd and not very diverse when hearing it.
How long have the hyena been in southern arvel
700-600 kya
@@TalesofKaimere so during the Eurasia harvest I guess
@@rylanbrewer3320 Yes
Do you think Vassal predators exist irl?
One could argue great white sharks and leopards could fit the basic description
@@TalesofKaimere Great White are apex, not Vassals.
Sure, they can be killed by Orcas in a rather always one sided fight, but actually, the true definition of what an Apex predator is, is "which have few to none natural predators when adult".
While Medium/Vassals and Mesopredators have way more predators to worry even when adults.
A Apex predator have tons of predators when young because it haven't yet the size and strength to protect itself against the latters.
But once adult, this number low drastically to inexistant in many cases.
Their mortality is at their highest when youngs, as they are killed by the medium/vassal predators they themselves regulate when they are adults.
In addition, as Orcas are pack hunting animals and kill most of the time always from 2 to more specimens which make a very unfair confrontation (as well to bias the results) and are the sole predator of the Great White when the latter is adult, I think we can attribute without too many risks that the Great White Shark is indeed a Apex predator.
I love some underdogs
Dr. Durand is kinda cute ngl
hm? huh? who?
A ballad around the Western Carnosaur sounds like it could be fun given the environment it lives in. While not as intelligent as a robust monarch, they have a significantly shorter growth time and would make for a much shorter documentary than a robust monarch of the same size. What are your thoughts on things like fan-fiction? (I’m asking because I’d consider writing a ballad of Ka’Hai style documentary about the Carnosaur).
🗿👍
Interesting
Very interesting
@@trexzueirokkkklek yes indeed, interesting
Just finished reading Death walks on broken wings. After all these years watching your vids, it’s amazing to now read the stories in this world, and can’t wait to read more
Glad to hear it!