Excellent lesson! Everyone always gushes about Elvin's playing, and rightly so, but so many jazzers I've encountered talk about his playing like it is some mystical thing that cannot be approached unless you've spent years listening and playing, which, for me, does not clarify or encourage, only builds pretension. But this lesson is the first thing I've encountered about Elvin that makes me understand and appreciate his playing in a concrete way. Thanks for taking the time to make this video--great teaching effort!
Hi David thank you so much for putting this up, I'm 47 years old and went to MI London years ago in my early 20's I met Elvin Jones 2 days before his 69th birthday, he was playing at Ronnie Scott's with Ravi Coltrane... He played with as much fire and passion as he did in 1964... It was indescribable ... After the gig I approached him, he was humble, selfless and kind. I had read books about Coltrane before hand, that quartet was and still is my favourite music... Your transcription is very educational, I've been in the practice room since lol.... Thanks again for sharing your insight.
Huge thanks!! And what an experience to have seen Elvin in action...I have seen Roy Haynes, but I never saw Elvin. But I know some people who knew Elvin and they say the same thing about his personality! And I agree, The Coltrane Quartet is my all time favorite as well. I have actually just gone back to work again on John Riley´s two great Elvin transcriptions from his books, as well as doing a few new Elvin transcriptions myself. Probably the hardest transcribing I´ve ever done so it will take some time...But eventually it will be up on the channel! All the best! /David
@@jazzdrumswithdave3086 Dave I apologies for this late reply. I'm very much looking forward to learning your transcriptions. Thanks for doing the hard work, and for letting us enjoy the fruits of your labour:)
Yes, this is a most practical and clearly explained view of some key elements in Elvin's approach to phrasing! And of course Elvin applied seemingly infinite variations of the patterns he used, so anyone digesting these licks would do well to listen back to him and identify some of these elements with that in mind - he may sound just that much more comprehensible then. It was noted in another comment that Elvin was not so calculated as to be able to articulate these patterns in the rhythmic terms used here (i.e. quarter note triplets divided in to triplets again, sixteenths applied in 3 against 4, etc.), and this is true. Elvin would describe the sounds he created in almost poetic terms, like water rippling out in circles from pebbles breaking the surface or the thunderous tumbling sounds of a herd of cattle. But alas, that can be difficult to try and emulate. David does a great service here in using the common language of literate drummers to decode some of these ideas into close approximations of what Elvin might play. To that point, one might remember that the triplets and sixteenths sharing space within a given measure may actually be closer to flowing triplets with some diddles added - Elvin's loose interpretation of triplet time found his notes sometimes expanding or contracting to fit his needs on the physical kit - what hand was leading or what accent was on what drum as he heard it, and the lines he painted to get there could blur just a little, so to speak. Kind of like the notion that a shuffle can be played with the in-between notes landing somewhere around 60% of the way to the next downbeat in boogaloo/quasi-shuffle, and maybe closer to 75% of the way in a Texas shuffle (with 66% of the way representing a "quantized" third triplet). These variations are where the voice of the individual drummer/artist lives. Hope that makes some sense to anyone besides me, hahaha. Thanks David, I loved this and got a TON out of it!
Hi Jay, and big, big thanks for your comment. It warms my heart that you dug into this and got stuff out of it. I read your text several times and I´m with you totally. Water rippling..., oh man, that´s the stuff. I just wrote in a previous comment that with my students, I try to pass on simply the mechanics of Elvin, and the rest is listening. The great sax player Bobby Jaspar said that: Elvin´s time playing is "like riding a train, with another smaller train riding on top of it, back and forth". We should probably keep in mind that today, getting close to Elvin´s feel, could be dangerous...today is in many ways more conservative than the 60´s, though some players manage to pull it off... I´ve heard both Tain and Nasheet Waits live play extremely complex and thick "comping" - and still not too much - and pull it off with excellence. It´s not the same thing as Elvin´s looseness, but it´s an aspect of it. Again, thanks for the fantastic feedback and, I would love to get back to you during the work of my book BLUEPRINTS for some feedback. Best wishes/David
Jazzdrumswithdave that’s great, let me know! I met Elvin during his intermission in Boston one night back in 1998. A young guy came up to him while we were talking at my table and asked him “what was the single biggest thing you got out of all those years playing with Coltrane?” There was an uncomfortable silence because it wasn’t asked in the most respectful tone, and Elvin broke it with “callouses!” and his hearty laugh as he loudly thumped his hand on the kid’s back. :)
BIG thanks for all the positive comments, I get super inspired to put up more stuff really soon!! I just put this solo as a pic on my website www.davidnorberg.net, under "Education - transcriptions" so you can save & print it! For me, I like to practice these things extremely slow many times to get a good feel of the subdivision changes and the "Elvin-diddles". And for me, especially with Elvin stuff, I found that just a few bpm:s can be the difference between success or disaster...John Riley shows this in his "Master Drummer" DVD, playing Elvin´s "Black Nile" solo and increasing little by little. Thanks again guys!
Thanks!!! Its a 20" K Constantinople Medium - a beautiful all around cymbal. The other cymbals are an 18" K Custom Dark Crash, a 20" Oriental Crash of Doom and 14" K Constantinople hihats. Today, I still have all of those, but I use a 22" K Constantinople Medium Thin High as main ride, I have replaced the K Custom Dark crash (even though I think its one of the best crashes ever made) with a 18" Kerope, and the hihats with a pair of 15" 1960"s Zildjian A - pretty crappy "chick" but the best "wash" ever...! BUT I use the 20" Medium Constantinople for all bigger settings, big band etc etc!
Nicely done. I was lucky enough to get a stage side table at the Blue Note back in 2002 on his birthday week of shows there and I remember thinking I would somehow be able to "make sense" of it if I could breathe the same air as him. Didn't really work out. But this is super clear and helpful.
Hey everybody, just a little note from the moderator. Which is me obviously. Huge thanks again for all positive comments and critical response. This video is today about 4 years old and I would have done a few things differently today. However, I'm still happy with the end result: to present an insight, a first glance into what makes Elvin stand out so much. Critisism is absolutely appreciated and I will be better on responding to it! But any comments including harsh language or insulting comments will from now on be reported - they do not belong on a channel that is for exchanging ideas, where we should be inspired by each others efforts instead of the opposite. And, to be clear, I have never played jazz music live with a click in my ears. However, I believe all of us, unless we are born with perfect time, has to practice with that click every single day in order to keep our sense of time fresh - yes, it is a fresh produce in many aspects!
Very nice lesson. I'm going to work on some of it today. And yes, you are right, Elvin Jones does sound "out of time" on stuff, but really is not out of time. That last part of the lesson should be easy for me, because I already play that quarter note triplet thing a lot. Thanks for the great lesson.
I am enjoying these lessons very much. I am 69 years old and am retired. I played full time in pop/country bands for 35 years, and am now going back and just enjoying practicing the jazz things and the Jim Chapin and Joe Morello, etc, book things, that I learned growing up.
Excellent lesson! Thank you very much. I have a question : at 5:29 the accented crash falls in the same time with the metronome (on the 2 of this mesure)? Thanks.
In fact, the band didn't always hit the one after Elvin's solos. Sometimes Freddie Hubbard and Wayne Shorter don't agree about it ! Georges Paczynski made a transcription of his solo in Black Nile and some phrases are very difficult to recognise played by Elvin. It's not in a standard, metronomic way, that's what made him unique. I nearly forgot to say thank you for this excellent video.
Totally agree, and big thanks! I think the only person able to know exactly where the one was was Elvin. But the musicians around hime were so talented and learned (kind of) to understand Elvin-time. And we have to remember that a good drummers job is to, how easy stuff you´re playing in the solo, look up and give a cue. Maybe someone who played with Elvin could tell if he did this, it would surely be interesting to know!
Thanks! It was two years since I made this so I have to go back and check...It´s a great question so I´ll definitely post it here soon. Some of the licks are from my transcriptions and I think some are from John Riley´s, the Black Nile solo in Jazz Drummers Workshop and Monk´s Dream in Beyond Bop Drumming. But, I´ll check and get back!!
måste hålla med om föregående kommentar. Det är mycket mystik när det kommer till samtal om Elvin Jones. Kul att höra att det finns en konkret"approach" man kan ha för att förstå Elvins lirande. MVH Nyligen jazzfrälst trummis
All this is just extremely elfish. Do yourself a favour and turn your metronome to half notes and don't put it on quarter notes ever again. Quarter notes are for elves.
I have no idea what you mean by elfish , but I'm a firm believer in practicing with the click on all kinds of places. Usually I put it on offbeats, (3rd triplet), maybe once a bar or so. I use it on 4s in this video solely to be extremely clear.
*_Yes, it is really weird, really really weird... So weird, it sounds totally detached from the music, and not cool at all... In fact, I would call it self-indulgent doodling... I can't imagine the rest of the band find it at all pleasing to play along with, and, as for the audience point of view, they must find it darn right unpleasant to listen to... If a drummer in my band carried on like that, going his own thing, with no regard for others, I would tell him not to find another band... Sorry, but I like music too much to allow a selfish smart ass drummer sabotage it._*
Excellent lesson! Everyone always gushes about Elvin's playing, and rightly so, but so many jazzers I've encountered talk about his playing like it is some mystical thing that cannot be approached unless you've spent years listening and playing, which, for me, does not clarify or encourage, only builds pretension. But this lesson is the first thing I've encountered about Elvin that makes me understand and appreciate his playing in a concrete way. Thanks for taking the time to make this video--great teaching effort!
One of the best lessons on Elvin Jones! Thank you David!!
Excellent lesson and beautiful playing!
Hi David thank you so much for putting this up, I'm 47 years old and went to MI London years ago in my early 20's I met Elvin Jones 2 days before his 69th birthday, he was playing at Ronnie Scott's with Ravi Coltrane... He played with as much fire and passion as he did in 1964... It was indescribable ... After the gig I approached him, he was humble, selfless and kind. I had read books about Coltrane before hand, that quartet was and still is my favourite music... Your transcription is very educational, I've been in the practice room since lol.... Thanks again for sharing your insight.
Huge thanks!! And what an experience to have seen Elvin in action...I have seen Roy Haynes, but I never saw Elvin. But I know some people who knew Elvin and they say the same thing about his personality! And I agree, The Coltrane Quartet is my all time favorite as well. I have actually just gone back to work again on John Riley´s two great Elvin transcriptions from his books, as well as doing a few new Elvin transcriptions myself. Probably the hardest transcribing I´ve ever done so it will take some time...But eventually it will be up on the channel! All the best! /David
@@jazzdrumswithdave3086 Dave I apologies for this late reply. I'm very much looking forward to learning your transcriptions. Thanks for doing the hard work, and for letting us enjoy the fruits of your labour:)
Probably the best Elvin lesson out there! Thanks for that!
The information you're communicating here is incredibly valuable to all jazz drummers. Thank you. Subscribed.
Fun stuff. You wish me luck!!!! The three over two is cool!
best drum lesson about elvin, amaazing
Yes, this is a most practical and clearly explained view of some key elements in Elvin's approach to phrasing! And of course Elvin applied seemingly infinite variations of the patterns he used, so anyone digesting these licks would do well to listen back to him and identify some of these elements with that in mind - he may sound just that much more comprehensible then. It was noted in another comment that Elvin was not so calculated as to be able to articulate these patterns in the rhythmic terms used here (i.e. quarter note triplets divided in to triplets again, sixteenths applied in 3 against 4, etc.), and this is true. Elvin would describe the sounds he created in almost poetic terms, like water rippling out in circles from pebbles breaking the surface or the thunderous tumbling sounds of a herd of cattle. But alas, that can be difficult to try and emulate. David does a great service here in using the common language of literate drummers to decode some of these ideas into close approximations of what Elvin might play. To that point, one might remember that the triplets and sixteenths sharing space within a given measure may actually be closer to flowing triplets with some diddles added - Elvin's loose interpretation of triplet time found his notes sometimes expanding or contracting to fit his needs on the physical kit - what hand was leading or what accent was on what drum as he heard it, and the lines he painted to get there could blur just a little, so to speak. Kind of like the notion that a shuffle can be played with the in-between notes landing somewhere around 60% of the way to the next downbeat in boogaloo/quasi-shuffle, and maybe closer to 75% of the way in a Texas shuffle (with 66% of the way representing a "quantized" third triplet). These variations are where the voice of the individual drummer/artist lives. Hope that makes some sense to anyone besides me, hahaha. Thanks David, I loved this and got a TON out of it!
Hi Jay, and big, big thanks for your comment. It warms my heart that you dug into this and got stuff out of it. I read your text several times and I´m with you totally. Water rippling..., oh man, that´s the stuff. I just wrote in a previous comment that with my students, I try to pass on simply the mechanics of Elvin, and the rest is listening. The great sax player Bobby Jaspar said that: Elvin´s time playing is "like riding a train, with another smaller train riding on top of it, back and forth". We should probably keep in mind that today, getting close to Elvin´s feel, could be dangerous...today is in many ways more conservative than the 60´s, though some players manage to pull it off... I´ve heard both Tain and Nasheet Waits live play extremely complex and thick "comping" - and still not too much - and pull it off with excellence. It´s not the same thing as Elvin´s looseness, but it´s an aspect of it. Again, thanks for the fantastic feedback and, I would love to get back to you during the work of my book BLUEPRINTS for some feedback. Best wishes/David
Jazzdrumswithdave that’s great, let me know! I met Elvin during his intermission in Boston one night back in 1998. A young guy came up to him while we were talking at my table and asked him “what was the single biggest thing you got out of all those years playing with Coltrane?” There was an uncomfortable silence because it wasn’t asked in the most respectful tone, and Elvin broke it with “callouses!” and his hearty laugh as he loudly thumped his hand on the kid’s back. :)
Jay Breen, eloquently put
@@jaybreen1010 I'm laughing here man, I heard him chatting a few times and can picture your scene perfectly
David, thanks so much for taking the time and energy to figure this stuff out and share it with us! Continued success and happy drumming!:)
BIG thanks for all the positive comments, I get super inspired to put up more stuff really soon!! I just put this solo as a pic on my website www.davidnorberg.net, under "Education - transcriptions" so you can save & print it! For me, I like to practice these things extremely slow many times to get a good feel of the subdivision changes and the "Elvin-diddles". And for me, especially with Elvin stuff, I found that just a few bpm:s can be the difference between success or disaster...John Riley shows this in his "Master Drummer" DVD, playing Elvin´s "Black Nile" solo and increasing little by little. Thanks again guys!
Thank you so much, DAVID, this lession is so great fresh...!
Great lesson and love that ride cymbal !!
Yes, beautiful cymbals all around:)
Thanks!!! Its a 20" K Constantinople Medium - a beautiful all around cymbal. The other cymbals are an 18" K Custom Dark Crash, a 20" Oriental Crash of Doom and 14" K Constantinople hihats. Today, I still have all of those, but I use a 22" K Constantinople Medium Thin High as main ride, I have replaced the K Custom Dark crash (even though I think its one of the best crashes ever made) with a 18" Kerope, and the hihats with a pair of 15" 1960"s Zildjian A - pretty crappy "chick" but the best "wash" ever...! BUT I use the 20" Medium Constantinople for all bigger settings, big band etc etc!
It's a great video. Thank you.
Great lesson! Thanks!
yeah man you're an excellent teacher! very easy to listen and understand. of course, you're an amazing player as well!
Well done. I loved the "Wish me luck" @ 5:43
Nice! Great lessons!
Wonderful!!
Awesome job man!
Nicely done. I was lucky enough to get a stage side table at the Blue Note back in 2002 on his birthday week of shows there and I remember thinking I would somehow be able to "make sense" of it if I could breathe the same air as him. Didn't really work out. But this is super clear and helpful.
Hey everybody, just a little note from the moderator. Which is me obviously. Huge thanks again for all positive comments and critical response. This video is today about 4 years old and I would have done a few things differently today. However, I'm still happy with the end result: to present an insight, a first glance into what makes Elvin stand out so much. Critisism is absolutely appreciated and I will be better on responding to it! But any comments including harsh language or insulting comments will from now on be reported - they do not belong on a channel that is for exchanging ideas, where we should be inspired by each others efforts instead of the opposite.
And, to be clear, I have never played jazz music live with a click in my ears. However, I believe all of us, unless we are born with perfect time, has to practice with that click every single day in order to keep our sense of time fresh - yes, it is a fresh produce in many aspects!
Very nice lesson. I'm going to work on some of it today. And yes, you are right, Elvin Jones does sound "out of time" on stuff, but really is not out of time. That last part of the lesson should be easy for me, because I already play that quarter note triplet thing a lot. Thanks for the great lesson.
Huge thanks!! The transcription of the solo is on my website www.davidnorberg.net under education!
I am enjoying these lessons very much. I am 69 years old and am retired. I played full time in pop/country bands for 35 years, and am now going back and just enjoying practicing the jazz things and the Jim Chapin and Joe Morello, etc, book things, that I learned growing up.
Tjena David.... det här gillade jag ordentligt....
great video and very informative! I appreciate you giving it in English when it's not your first language
I recomend Crescent (Elvins fav Coltranealbum) and JC & Duke...TY for this GREAT lesson !!!!!!
Dang Man! You're inspirational!!
Respect for anyone that shows totally worn out copies of those two books!
Excellent thank you!
very nice!!!:)
cool stuff like it!!
Great!!!!!!
Great video!! do you have the transcriptions?
Thanks!!☺ Yes, I forgot to put it on my website, Ill do it in a few days! www.davidnorberg.net
Man, your channel rocks... Or swings I should say? :)
like it!!
Great video! Thanks alot. Would`ve been great if you`de have mic
Excellent lesson! Thank you very much. I have a question : at 5:29 the accented crash falls in the same time with the metronome (on the 2 of this mesure)? Thanks.
In fact, the band didn't always hit the one after Elvin's solos. Sometimes Freddie Hubbard and Wayne Shorter don't agree about it ! Georges Paczynski made a transcription of his solo in Black Nile and some phrases are very difficult to recognise played by Elvin. It's not in a standard, metronomic way, that's what made him unique.
I nearly forgot to say thank you for this excellent video.
Totally agree, and big thanks! I think the only person able to know exactly where the one was was Elvin. But the musicians around hime were so talented and learned (kind of) to understand Elvin-time. And we have to remember that a good drummers job is to, how easy stuff you´re playing in the solo, look up and give a cue. Maybe someone who played with Elvin could tell if he did this, it would surely be interesting to know!
btw, Elvin did stretched beyond trades... On The Great Jazz Trio - Someday My Prince Will Come for example...
This is great. Thanks for this breakdown. Where are the clips from recording wise or are they just generally licks of his?
Thanks! It was two years since I made this so I have to go back and check...It´s a great question so I´ll definitely post it here soon. Some of the licks are from my transcriptions and I think some are from John Riley´s, the Black Nile solo in Jazz Drummers Workshop and Monk´s Dream in Beyond Bop Drumming. But, I´ll check and get back!!
Amazing video and pretty well made chronologically.
I couldn't hear your voice well at times, is it because of the mixing of your video?
Big thanks!! I agree, in the future I will do these with a headset (or even better in a professional studio...)
måste hålla med om föregående kommentar. Det är mycket mystik när det kommer till samtal om Elvin Jones. Kul att höra att det finns en konkret"approach" man kan ha för att förstå Elvins lirande.
MVH
Nyligen jazzfrälst trummis
Morgan Agren???
この動画は譜面が有って良い、だけど譜面通りでは無い。
動画自体はとても良い。
JOE HENDERSON IN N OUT
INSANITY
CHECK IT OUT
ELVIN & MC COY TYNER
...👍👍👍
How do you miss McCoy Tyners The Real McCoy? Guess you can’t list them all.
Norwegian?
Swedish🇸🇪
All this is just extremely elfish. Do yourself a favour and turn your metronome to half notes and don't put it on quarter notes ever again. Quarter notes are for elves.
I have no idea what you mean by elfish , but I'm a firm believer in practicing with the click on all kinds of places. Usually I put it on offbeats, (3rd triplet), maybe once a bar or so. I use it on 4s in this video solely to be extremely clear.
Chris scott, let’s see your videos
*_Yes, it is really weird, really really weird... So weird, it sounds totally detached from the music, and not cool at all... In fact, I would call it self-indulgent doodling... I can't imagine the rest of the band find it at all pleasing to play along with, and, as for the audience point of view, they must find it darn right unpleasant to listen to... If a drummer in my band carried on like that, going his own thing, with no regard for others, I would tell him not to find another band... Sorry, but I like music too much to allow a selfish smart ass drummer sabotage it._*
You’re proving why he was so influential haha