Would love to see more comparisons to other controllers. I’m running a fardriver nd72680 so wondering how that and a bac8000 would stack up against these two, just for fun a sabvoton 72200 would be cool too.
Side by side comparisons are finicky. with these 2 controllers, the designs are similar so this is possible. With others, the designs are so different that this sort of comparison gets lost in the differences. Best I'd be able to do is to measure them, but that wouldn't be very "visual".
@@de-bodgery you ever do testing at the phase? For output? I can get a decent sense of batt side based on bms amps but it would be cool to see some real world phase results.
One thing i would like to see is apply 12v across a low side mosfet source and gate, then measure the resistance from batt negative to phase post. Then do the same thing with a high side modfet bank with phase post to positive battery terminal. That will give you a reasonable look at restive losses in the system at a specific phase amperage.
@@ehvelectrichovercraftvehic6141 the gate of mosfets turns on at 10v and has a maximum voltage of 20v. This is not the bus voltage. It is the control voltage to turn on the transistors.
So all the resistance in the KO, that eats up battery power? I've got an F-spec and have been less than thrilled with the impact its had on battery range. When I set it to my stock controller output 85a line and 450 phase, it gets about the same range, but the power seems a bit less as it doesn't go up hills as far as my stock controller did before power dying off. When I set KO to 115a line and 450phase I go from 15 miles range to 9 miles range. So 27% more power output but lose 40% of my range. I expected my range to go down with more power, but thought the f-spec controller would be more efficient than stock so maybe I wouldn't see a huge drop in range at 27% more power. I certainly didn't expect 40% drop in range. Seems to me maybe the KO is less efficient than the stock controller. Any thoughts?
Yeah...possibly. What bike do you have? Pretty sure the Surron controller is FOC and if that's what you have you went backwards in motor control to a less efficient form of motor control. I don't know about controllers on other similar bikes. Also, yes direct to your question, the KO controllers are rather lossy considering the internal resistance that is in the power stage. They will make a good bit of waste heat.
Do worry about other think. People are judging based on their feelings and not knowledge. Would it be possible to flash the EBMX unit with a stock VESC firmware to open everything up to have the ability to run other motors? I think EBMX are limiting themselves to the surron market when there is a much wide group of light EV people out there.
Lots of people present a lot of hate and their loyalty to KO overshadows everything. It took me a while to see them in the right light. Now I thank them for their attention. It's all bringing my content more viewers. So go ahead and hate all you like, you are still bringing me more reach and more views. *** The chip on the EBMX has been tried before to be flashed with the bone stock VESC code base written for the STM32F405 and it didn't run. The libraries are not the same and there's some other things that I don't know about that are needed to make this work. As a result, you can't do what you asked. What will happen however is now that there is another supported chip is other people will use the work EBMX did to also use this chip. I guess there will have to be 2 branches to the VESC code base form now on. One for STM32F405 and one for GD32F405. They will still share over 95% of the same code base, but with a few changes for support for the 2 CPU's. This is inevitable! VESC on the F405 is running out of CPU power and it's already known that a new and more powerful CPU is needed.
@@de-bodgery vesc on the stm32f405 is not running out of power. motor control takes 10-20% of the cpu time and it can run a significant amount of lisp code before being overloaded. the gd32 chip is the exact same processing power. you just can't get the true stm32f4 right now due to the chip shortage. also, the pinouts are probably going to be different, so you can't just "flash stock vesc firmware" and expect it to work even if the cpu was the same.
@@marshallscholz8629 I probably said that wrong or was unclear what I meant. What I meant is that you can't get higher eRPM. You either have to over clock the CPU or get a faster CPU.
@@de-bodgery the vesc already supports an erpm of 150k erpm. This has been tested and you will not reach anywhere near it in traction applications. To go faster you have to increase the pwm speed over 15khz to support commutation.
He would post whatever hate he usually did and then other people would report him as a spammer and his posts would get taken down. I'd see email notification of his comments and usually by the time I got around to commenting back, they were already reported and gone. I assume he finally gave up! 100% of his comments in my videos got reported. I assume with no outlet for his hater comments he went away. I don't know if YT blocks your account if you get reported too many times, but maybe he got blocked? Weird that his video content is very old, very limited and about cooking if I remember right.
500w of heat at the 800 claimed max amps... per phase (well others may be a smidgen lower). vs 150 for the ebmx... if you have a thermal cam - can you run current through it? be interesting to see the hot spots forming...
First - 95% of buyers of these products is not known nothing about electronics. They are see the outside of these products and both of them looks very nice. Second - The buyers can only get information about the quality and performace from user videos and sellers promotion videos. I think these controllers are expensieve for most peoples, so they can not buy all controller types what the market presents.They can not try all of them. So if their favourtie youtuber or facebook blogger said, "This controller is a beast and my bike is flipped upside down, just a 10% of throttle turn" they will be buy that. Or which controller's got a bigger hype. Third - Because of missing knowledge of technical and electrical/electrician and of courese computer/controller programming knowledge, the most of people need a plug and play solution. So they don't want messing with tune, installing, wireing, programming etc. Fourth - The price. That sensitive because whatever the buyer is rich or poor, the average human brain will choose the cheaper product, because most of people wants to do well with the puchase. And KO is gives this them. Cheaper than others, looks like awesome from outside, user friendly application, good customer service, big numbers on the power/performance side, big hype around the products, and lot of users review from KO products, what talks about, how good their products. A very very small number of peoples tried example: KO vs EBMX controllers on a same bike with same settings. But if something is powerful for me that not means that is powerful for everybody. You can not measure power and quality, durability from watching a videos or listening boggers. First you must feel it. And if you want more exact numbers, you must measure it. My opinion is: We saw the inside of the controllers. EBMX made a dyno test both of them. So now we must compare them with a dyno, in working condition when they installed on e-bikes. But who will have a same condition bikes, with same condition battery,gearing, wheel sizes etc. ? I think that's why we never get answer which is better (on the customer side) because there is no exact same bike setup. If somebody really interested and can let the real information inside their brain, they will be choose the better technical parameter product by this teardowns. If they are unable, they will run after the better hype. That's all! That's why i say every time when performance comes to in conversation: " If your vehicle wheels make a burnout, that's not a unit of a measurement. Any type of vehicle can burnout their wheels, in first gear"
@@surrontvkobuild That depends on what you notice. You can push higher current to overcome the controllers internal losses. You probably won't feel any difference, just that to get the same motor torque requires more phase amps if your controller is more lossy. This equates to lower efficiency. AKA more amps needed to do the same amount of work.
@@de-bodgery thank you for being so detailed and teaching me a thing or two I am a KO fanboy but can not denie fax I'll b moving onto x9000 next after both my rushes due thanx again
@@surrontvkobuild Lots of people just believe the hype from KO who is only interested in you buying from them and not quality products. They sure look pretty on the outside to delude you into buying their garbage! Just about everything is better than KO!
29X worse and that's just resistive losses in the power stage! Inductive losses will also be quite high and I never did that comparison. I didn't think of checking that until I had sent back the loaner X-9000 hardware to EBMX. You want very low inductive losses inside the controller.
Thank you , very good test to show difference in terms of numbers
Would love to see more comparisons to other controllers. I’m running a fardriver nd72680 so wondering how that and a bac8000 would stack up against these two, just for fun a sabvoton 72200 would be cool too.
Side by side comparisons are finicky. with these 2 controllers, the designs are similar so this is possible. With others, the designs are so different that this sort of comparison gets lost in the differences. Best I'd be able to do is to measure them, but that wouldn't be very "visual".
@@de-bodgery you ever do testing at the phase? For output? I can get a decent sense of batt side based on bms amps but it would be cool to see some real world phase results.
One thing i would like to see is apply 12v across a low side mosfet source and gate, then measure the resistance from batt negative to phase post.
Then do the same thing with a high side modfet bank with phase post to positive battery terminal.
That will give you a reasonable look at restive losses in the system at a specific phase amperage.
@@ehvelectrichovercraftvehic6141 the gate of mosfets turns on at 10v and has a maximum voltage of 20v. This is not the bus voltage. It is the control voltage to turn on the transistors.
So all the resistance in the KO, that eats up battery power? I've got an F-spec and have been less than thrilled with the impact its had on battery range. When I set it to my stock controller output 85a line and 450 phase, it gets about the same range, but the power seems a bit less as it doesn't go up hills as far as my stock controller did before power dying off. When I set KO to 115a line and 450phase I go from 15 miles range to 9 miles range. So 27% more power output but lose 40% of my range. I expected my range to go down with more power, but thought the f-spec controller would be more efficient than stock so maybe I wouldn't see a huge drop in range at 27% more power. I certainly didn't expect 40% drop in range. Seems to me maybe the KO is less efficient than the stock controller. Any thoughts?
Yeah...possibly. What bike do you have? Pretty sure the Surron controller is FOC and if that's what you have you went backwards in motor control to a less efficient form of motor control. I don't know about controllers on other similar bikes. Also, yes direct to your question, the KO controllers are rather lossy considering the internal resistance that is in the power stage. They will make a good bit of waste heat.
Glad I went with the EBMX!
Hi can you do a video of your dualtron city please
Do worry about other think. People are judging based on their feelings and not knowledge. Would it be possible to flash the EBMX unit with a stock VESC firmware to open everything up to have the ability to run other motors? I think EBMX are limiting themselves to the surron market when there is a much wide group of light EV people out there.
Lots of people present a lot of hate and their loyalty to KO overshadows everything. It took me a while to see them in the right light. Now I thank them for their attention. It's all bringing my content more viewers. So go ahead and hate all you like, you are still bringing me more reach and more views.
***
The chip on the EBMX has been tried before to be flashed with the bone stock VESC code base written for the STM32F405 and it didn't run. The libraries are not the same and there's some other things that I don't know about that are needed to make this work. As a result, you can't do what you asked. What will happen however is now that there is another supported chip is other people will use the work EBMX did to also use this chip. I guess there will have to be 2 branches to the VESC code base form now on. One for STM32F405 and one for GD32F405. They will still share over 95% of the same code base, but with a few changes for support for the 2 CPU's. This is inevitable! VESC on the F405 is running out of CPU power and it's already known that a new and more powerful CPU is needed.
FYI, I won't be running the X-9000 on a Surron.
@@de-bodgery vesc on the stm32f405 is not running out of power. motor control takes 10-20% of the cpu time and it can run a significant amount of lisp code before being overloaded. the gd32 chip is the exact same processing power. you just can't get the true stm32f4 right now due to the chip shortage.
also, the pinouts are probably going to be different, so you can't just "flash stock vesc firmware" and expect it to work even if the cpu was the same.
@@marshallscholz8629 I probably said that wrong or was unclear what I meant. What I meant is that you can't get higher eRPM. You either have to over clock the CPU or get a faster CPU.
@@de-bodgery the vesc already supports an erpm of 150k erpm. This has been tested and you will not reach anywhere near it in traction applications.
To go faster you have to increase the pwm speed over 15khz to support commutation.
👍👍
Can you compare resistance on other controllers as well?
I can, but this was specifically requested several times.
@@de-bodgery yeah no pressure just thought it would be cool to maybe have a chart comparing internal resistance of various controllers.
@@de-bodgery yeah no pressure just thought it would be cool to maybe have a chart comparing internal resistance of various controllers.
@@bj97301 It's not a bad idea, but then I'd have to stop writing on my ESD mat! hahahaha
@@de-bodgery 😂 let me know if you want help. I am a wizard with spreadsheets.
Where is Jay Jay ? No comment ?
He would post whatever hate he usually did and then other people would report him as a spammer and his posts would get taken down. I'd see email notification of his comments and usually by the time I got around to commenting back, they were already reported and gone. I assume he finally gave up! 100% of his comments in my videos got reported. I assume with no outlet for his hater comments he went away. I don't know if YT blocks your account if you get reported too many times, but maybe he got blocked? Weird that his video content is very old, very limited and about cooking if I remember right.
21 likes and 1 dislike for this video so far. Can't imagine who might dislike it except KO people!
500w of heat at the 800 claimed max amps... per phase (well others may be a smidgen lower). vs 150 for the ebmx...
if you have a thermal cam - can you run current through it? be interesting to see the hot spots forming...
LOL...on the list! This past month I've already spent about $1000 on camera stuff.
29x worst just in that reading…we can all see the differences and poor manufacturing. Why would anyone buy it idk.
Yeah...pretty BAD! But they do and they get all hostile about it when I expose this junk!
First - 95% of buyers of these products is not known nothing about electronics. They are see the outside of these products and both of them looks very nice.
Second - The buyers can only get information about the quality and performace from user videos and sellers promotion videos. I think these controllers are expensieve for most peoples, so they can not buy all controller types what the market presents.They can not try all of them. So if their favourtie youtuber or facebook blogger said, "This controller is a beast and my bike is flipped upside down, just a 10% of throttle turn" they will be buy that. Or which controller's got a bigger hype.
Third - Because of missing knowledge of technical and electrical/electrician and of courese computer/controller programming knowledge, the most of people need a plug and play solution. So they don't want messing with tune, installing, wireing, programming etc.
Fourth - The price. That sensitive because whatever the buyer is rich or poor, the average human brain will choose the cheaper product, because most of people wants to do well with the puchase. And KO is gives this them. Cheaper than others, looks like awesome from outside, user friendly application, good customer service, big numbers on the power/performance side, big hype around the products, and lot of users review from KO products, what talks about, how good their products. A very very small number of peoples tried example: KO vs EBMX controllers on a same bike with same settings.
But if something is powerful for me that not means that is powerful for everybody.
You can not measure power and quality, durability from watching a videos or listening boggers. First you must feel it. And if you want more exact numbers, you must measure it.
My opinion is: We saw the inside of the controllers. EBMX made a dyno test both of them. So now we must compare them with a dyno, in working condition when they installed on e-bikes. But who will have a same condition bikes, with same condition battery,gearing, wheel sizes etc. ? I think that's why we never get answer which is better (on the customer side) because there is no exact same bike setup.
If somebody really interested and can let the real information inside their brain, they will be choose the better technical parameter product by this teardowns. If they are unable, they will run after the better hype. That's all!
That's why i say every time when performance comes to in conversation: " If your vehicle wheels make a burnout, that's not a unit of a measurement. Any type of vehicle can burnout their wheels, in first gear"
End message is im loosing power by having more resistance in the ko rush hmm ill b trying ebmx next than you
Yes, exactly. KO controllers are very poor designs!
@@de-bodgery is it noticable power loss ?? Id that this power loss translate into heat on top of that ?? Thank you
@@surrontvkobuild That depends on what you notice. You can push higher current to overcome the controllers internal losses. You probably won't feel any difference, just that to get the same motor torque requires more phase amps if your controller is more lossy. This equates to lower efficiency. AKA more amps needed to do the same amount of work.
@@de-bodgery thank you for being so detailed and teaching me a thing or two I am a KO fanboy but can not denie fax I'll b moving onto x9000 next after both my rushes due thanx again
@@surrontvkobuild Lots of people just believe the hype from KO who is only interested in you buying from them and not quality products. They sure look pretty on the outside to delude you into buying their garbage! Just about everything is better than KO!
Wow, shocker KO iis 16X worse lol
29X worse and that's just resistive losses in the power stage! Inductive losses will also be quite high and I never did that comparison. I didn't think of checking that until I had sent back the loaner X-9000 hardware to EBMX. You want very low inductive losses inside the controller.