I Regret Not Knowing This Songwriting Tip Sooner
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- Опубликовано: 9 ноя 2023
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A Chorus is not just the bit where the lyrics repeat. It's something else entirely. In this video, we tell you what a chorus IS, different types of choruses, as well as 3 practical tips - one lyrical, one melodic, and one chord-based - that will help you write better choruses faster.
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Maybe i missed it in the video, but I feel that it's important to mention that not all songs need a chorus.
Exactly. And some songs have two choruses. Once you know *what* they are functionally, you can find very creative ways to deploy the core mechanics or make then redundant.
No gods no masters no chorus! JK but refrains are nice too 😂
These guys say they weren't talking about pop songwriting but they really are
Jimmy Webb was told by a publisher to put a chorus in “by the time I get to Phoenix.” He refused.
@Boujonzu that's what they are using as reference but this works great in most genres of music. Although vagueness does seem to work really well in genres like rock
your definition of "the title" being equivalent to a thesis statement. i like this, this helps my academic brain a lot lol
I got a question for people about music writing or theory. If everyone follows the same patterns are we not just creating variations of the same thing? I know is more pleasing in certain forms. But different can be bad or good. Sometimes I wish people would break the mold more.
100%! They mention this exact idea at the end. One beautiful aspect about learning the fundamentals of a craft is also then being able to break the rules in a way that is personal to you, but still thoughtful, making it more likely to work well 🎶✨
I like to think of songwriting as story telling. Tell me a story. Let me know why you need to tell that story. Tell me what can be learned from it. If there’s an aside, put it in a bridge. The story can be big or small. It can be about anything. But it should have a point. Use the common elements of song writing to shape the story and its conclusion.
Remember. Writing is about re-writing. You rarely get it right on the first go around. Don’t be afraid to get rid of bits that don’t work. There’s always another way to say it.
That’s my two cents.
Totally. I also enjoy a bridge that goes further or more frankly into what’s really going on though😊 Like Taylor Swift’s best bridges for example
The bridge rarely works as an aside. I don't think that's a useful way to see it at all.
@@felixmarques I think you may be looking at an aside differently than the OP. Anything can work, depending on the context and what it is made of!
Lots of songs are written without lyrics in mind at all. Basically everything Nirvana ever did would be an excellent example.
Guys....never stop creating, we value you so much
I've been writing for 50 years and had a deal back in 1977. I love a chorus but there are songs that have no chorus that are great. Examples: Snowbird and Gentle on my Mind. For some reason these two songs work with no chorus. Personally I love a good chorus and it's generally where the hook lies.
For sure this is very advanced craftsmanship. Which is probably not something which I should try out as a beginner or even intermediate
One of the basic structure mistakes I've made in the past is go to the chorus too soon (after only 1 verse). It seems many pro songs have a full verse first (two sections) THEN the chorus. After that chorus sometimes the verses are half verses before the next chorus as the song develops. I think the reason I so often 'jumped' to the chorus too soon is I had the idea and wanted to get written down before I forgot it! haha True!
This happened to me too. For the same reason 😂😂
I've come across the same thing. What you want is that sweet build of the pre chorus that drops down into the more subdued second half of the first verse then the next time it comes around you get to smack them with the chorus good and hard. I don't always manage it but it's good to be aware of every trick out there.
I often watch videos like this as a way to procrastinate my own writing. Normally I've heard the advice in one form or another but every now and then I learn something new.
It's a never-ending process of improvement and long periods of stagnation for me. Sometimes I stop writing altogether and just build lego space ships.
I use two or three different methods. Chorus first- eight days a week. The chorus after one verse-"don't bore us get to the chorus". and two verses then chorus then instrumental one more verse(maybe the ist repeated) and chorus out. Or then there is the vamp out- extended jam. I think the song kinda dictates the form you chose. Also busy verse,,less words longer chorus.
There are plenty of examples of songs that get to the chorus in the first 30 or 45 seconds (Anberlin's - "Feel Good Drag," Lewis Capaldi's "Someone You Loved") that are great songs, just as there are plenty that delay the first chorus (Coldplay and Oasis used this method often, having "two" verse sections before the first chorus) or even start the song with the chorus ("Mood" performed by 24kGoldn and "Stay" performed by the Kid LAROI---this structure has been quite popular in the last few years) that are great.
You have to do whatever fits with the particular song you're writing. You can write a hit song with any of these structures.
Many good songs do the verse and leads up to the chorus, but goes into another verse. This makes it more satisfying when you finally do start the chorus. Tantalizing just a bit.
I can tell pretty clearly when a section of the song I’m writing isn’t working, but your videos have really helped me problem solve. So insightful and inspiring!
I usually pause your videos to start brainstorming songs I’m working on!
David Bowie often repeated this one mantra “Swim against the stream.” to avoid a generic approach to creativity. We live in a time where commercial music is just about appealing to the lowest common denominator. Maybe some tutorials on how to avoid standard ideas and cliché. Sadly there are so many videos teaching people how to be other people.
I think vague lyrics can be very powerful and beautiful, and resonate deeply with an audience. I'm surprised to hear you guys comment that vague lyrics bring a shallower experience for the listener! I think a mix of specific lyrics/message with vague lyrics is often the ticket.
Agreed-I think Chris Martin does this beautifully! It means more people can relate to it in different ways
They need to listen to It’s a Fine Day by Jane
It’s harder to find originality and poignancy in vague lyrics. Many songwriting coaches emphasize specificity to get you thinking more creatively, but they are also the first to admit the commercial success of vague lyricists like Coldplay or Sia.
@@mncheng I think perhaps ambiguous might be a better word-they might be specific to the person who wrote them but they aren't saying what they mean directly. You're right about that-John Mayer once said the biggest songs are written about the smallest moments and I think that's often true
I think it all depends. For instance, where is the line between vague lyrics and pure metaphor? Great example is Yes. I mean, seriously, anyone actually know what the hell any of those lyrics are about?? But they do sound great. Another example is many of the Genesis songs. Phil Collins was once asked what one of his songs was about (I forget which one) and he said basically, "Not much. It's just word association." Meaning that he was just linking words together that sounded good. I've concluded that a song doesn't have to have all that much meaning of you have a great feel. A great example of this is songs where you can't even understand what they're saying. I mean, how much meaning is there if you can't even hear the words? But if the rest of the music sounds great, well then, maybe that's all that was needed. So I think it all just depends. (Notice my book ending? lol)
It's all about the hook. The listener should be able to repeat it after hearing it just once. Keep it simple, familiar and memorable.
This channel is really a cut above. So much creative guidance stuff on YT leaves you feeling more demoralised, like there's yet *another* thing you have to master or understand before you can start, plus loads of filler, intro, waffle and promotion. All your videos are concise, useful, encouraging and inspire me to actually get going with song writing rather than take another self-confidence slump. THANK YOU!
Absolutely love vague songs ❤
I think of the chorus as a thesis statement. And it tends to come first in the songwriting, much as you would not write a term paper and then come back later and figure out what it's about.
Some good songs start with a chorus.
This is very very useful. I’m instinctively resistant to any rules or formulas in music, but that can often lead to not being purposeful and deliberate about what choices you make. These tips basically say, think hard about all the elements in your song. What is its point? What are you trying to convey? How does each and every element fit in with that idea? It’s not just jamming. It should be more purposeful.
One take-away for me from this video is the use of a pre-chorus with no resolution to the tonic. That leaves the listener waiting for resolution in the chorus.
And I tend to think of choruses from a utilitarian perspective--Bennie touched on this: what is the listener going to walk away humming or thinking about? What ideas do you want to plant in their heads?
Back to Black does this well.
Wow - great tips - thank you! And I love that you give so many examples! I've been reluctant to do "title book-ending" because it felt like a blatant attempt to make the title more memorable, but you made me consider that as a songwriter I am probably more conscious of this technique than a typical listener, and I could just be a bit paranoid. I especially love Tip #2 "the widest Interval" - what a brilliant idea - I never thought of that!!!
There seems to be a million things not to do regarding songwriting- it’s harder and harder to focus on what TO do.
There's only one thing to do. Write an awesome song that captures the world's imagination and propels you to international fame and fortune. 😂 Seriously though, the thing is to learn things like this and just forget them and just write.
Best advice I ever had… “don’t get it right, get it written.” 🤷🏻♂️
Just write what you want and how you feel .
Wake up after sleep tired, groggy and grouchy. Slurp down a half cup of black coffee, grab pen and paper, and just write ( not “right”) while you’re still half-asleep and half Un-“conscious- conscientious.” Read it later.
Verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus. Or chorus, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus. What more is there to know
I've watched several of you videos but this one is the first time I've heard your singing voice. SO GOOD!
Thank you guys for such a great description!!
Fantastic tips. Loved hearing you sing the examples. Spectacular vocals!
I love your channel. Your lessons are masterful and articulate. Thank you!
Simple, concise and brilliant. Your videos are great! Thank you.
You two are such excellent teachers. Your channel is one of the few that my ADHD brain is able to actually soak in without being distracted by crap going on in the background or monotone, rambly delivery. Thank you for being such a valuable resource to the song writing community!
My favorite example of the subdued chorus is Neil Diamond's Cracklin' Rosie. It catches the ear with a low bouncing melody, before building and rising to the most triumphant note of the song. That chorus does some seriously heavy lifting in an already great song.
I call this approach the "anti-chorus." It can be very effective!
@@YourFavouriteColor Yes, you're contrasting the chorus but sub tonic.
Thank You for this wonderful direct--*and actionable*--advice.
Much appreciated and I look forward to joining one of your workshops someday.
Please keep up the great content
Thanks so much. And that last tip was super interesting and a real think out of the box suggestion. You’re both amazing, thanks!!
This is the most amazing channel that I've found in the last 3 years. I'm obsessed with it! Thank you very much for this amazing knowledge!
Love these conversations!
These definitions are exactly right...except when they aren't.
Great analogy there with the darts! Thanks!
Fantastic video, I really appreciate your ideas. Thanks, I enjoy watching.
I just want to say thank you so much for producing these wonderful videos of giving absolutely awesome tips in such a precise and concise way! I really enjoy watching them and it has become a habit for me to watch your videos, which definitely motivates me to pick up songwriting again! ☺😍 May God bless your work 🙏
You two are the best, people pay big money for info like this .Thank you
Great video and tips and your voice is awesome! Thanks!
Great stuff y'all. I just finished a new song that I'm pretty happy with and I'm like oh, my chorus does check most of these boxes...but I just wrote it intuitively but it's cool because this gives me some insight into why it works for next time.
yall are saving lives
Fantastic, thank you!
Love this channel!! 😎
Love your stuff guys. Its full of usefull information and you teach it in a friendly easy to understand way.
Very good definition of a chorus. I actually understood it. 🙂Thanks for helping a newbie ✌️
Nice tips guys! Thank you.
Fantastic video with fabulous tips
Wow. Thank you! 🙏🏼🎸🎼
This is the best video I came across regarding the topic ❤
Wow, this is POWERFUL!
Thank you so much, you guys are awesome!
I’ve sort of always just sensed that about the chorus, that it’s the most direct expression of the song’s central idea, and written that way naturally. Like it sums it all up and the verses might even change or amplify the meaning of the chorus each time. But these questions and tips were really helpful to pinpoint a better way to sum it all up. Thanks!
Great tips , thanks ❤
thank you for your videos! as a beginner, they genuinely gives me hope that the tools will lead me to some great songs one day!! Just trying to soak all this information in ❤
Very good, I enjoyed it very much. Your performing skills are excellent too!
Nice. This analysis all makes sense.
The chorus of a song is to the ideas expressed in the song as the resolution is to a chord progression. What makes a song a song, or a poem a poem, is rhythm, not rhyme. A chorus does not need to have any repetition of lyric, rhyme, or melodic phrasing in order to be a successful chorus. I'm thinking of my song, "April Days", which was probably the first song I ever wrote in my life of which I am still proud to say I wrote and to perform, written when I was probably 18 years old:
"April remembers the hare and the hatter
But the wind drives the rain
Into May flowers
Oh, April remember me..."
The only thing that repeats in this chorus, at all, is the chord progression, and yet, in the context of the song, you know immediately that it's the chorus. As you can probably tell, there are allusions to the passage of time, and a borrowing of imagery from "Alice in Wonderland". The verses are much the same, there is no rhyme in them, at all, and they are nostalgic for time spent together (with someone not named April) that will never come again.
Great advice! I'm always amazed at the way artists 'break the rules' in the most beautiful fashion and I always think, "why didn't I think of that"? 😅
This was so practical and helpful! I write songs since I was a Teenager without even thinking about it. Now going through my songs with your tipps in mind shows me that I did some things "right" instinctively - and how much I can still learn. I'm thrilled to try out your tipps, also to use your PDF. Thank you so much!
This sounds very similar to what we were taught when I was studying journalism. This is just like writing a column for a newspaper. Decide what you want to say and communicate it as clearly as you can.
Fab advice as ever !
Cool tips, thanks
It’s crazy that some songs are so good but so basic. Free falling is like the same 3 chords throughout the entire song!
Also you’ve got a really cool voice!
You showed me how to write again!
The song had come to a quiet end. .. then..
You showed me how to write again!
✨👻✨
Great video. Thanks a lot.
Really helpful, thanks. 🙏
❤this is beautiful
Good god.
You guys are great!
At taking all the fun out of writing songs!!
Thank you!
great video as always! Keppie you said there so many things you could teach about crafting a chorus, so perhaps a part 2/3 to this subject? ☺
Thanks for a collegiate level lesson, what a blessing.
You are a really good singer.
Great sounding voice.
"Always" by Irving Berlin is a great song that doesn't even have a conventional chorus but is a great example of the concepts you're conveying. Thanks for the exceptionally insightful delve.
Lots of Great American Songbook stuff, classic songs like “Somewhere Over the Rainbow”, had no choruses. They were in 32-bar form, or AABA form. They would however have a refrain, or other section mechanics we don't use that much anymore. It's extremely useful to learn about song structure beyond verse-chorus form.
One of the things that I found helps to understand what a chorus is, is to look at songs that stretch the meaning of "chorus". Some examples:
"Tiny Dancer" by Elton John
"Khe Sanh" by Cold Chisel
"Don't Stop Believing" by Journey
"Dream On" by Aerosmith
You all know these songs. (Well, if you're Australian, you know the second one!)
What they all have in common is that the "chorus" is a response to everything else in the song, and so the way this is handled is by putting all of that "chorus" stuff at the END, not interspersed between verses.
Another kind of "weird chorus" (especially popular in EDM; watch out for this) is where the chorus has no lyrics at all. Instead, the tension is let out with an entirely instrumental break, often a solo. Some more classic examples include "Baker Street" by Gerry Rafferty and "Seven Nation Army" by The White Stripes.
I find it endearing how you Aussies say "idea."
The the same punchline for two or three independent joke setups
Is my favorite fun model for a chorus. Very country and western. Very near and dear.
I find it endearing how you Aussies say "idea."
THANK YOU
all solid tips, but I feel a couple might benefit from a bit of expansion.
CLARITY-it's true that being able to illustrate the core of your song clearly and express it to your listener is essential. Cryptic, vague lyrics are not "deeper," they're frustrating most of the time(with some rare exceptions). However, the flip side to that is, being direct and clear in a way that's trite, on the nose, obvious, or hokey. vague lyrics are frustrating. on-the-nose lyrics are nauseating. That's what makes writing a good chorus so tricky. You must do two things simultaneously. You must be fresh yet familiar. Dangerous yet safe. Poetic yet clear. Even hooklines that seem very simple are deceptively difficult to write.
"shut up and dance with me" is direct and clear, but it's a phrase that nobody has ever quite said in a song. that specificity with a dollop of vulgarity give it a little bit of edge and danger. Most importantly, "shut up and dance with me" contains subtext. The text calls a person to "shut up" which is rude and not very likable, but what makes the character likable is that "shut up" is only the text, not the subtext. The subtext is "uncontrollable yearning/desire/passion/love at first sight. "dance with me" is a built-in metaphor as well. It's not about shutting up OR dancing. It's about love.
On the flip side, a lyric like "You broke my heart and I'll never be happy again" is clear, but has a lot of the negative qualities of clarity, and has NO SUBTEXT. lack of subtext, even in a very simple lyric, is the kiss of death.
But yet another fold to this is, subtext itself can be on the nose too. For instance, using some heavy handed symbolism in a clumsy way is just as nauseating as an on-the-nose lyric with no subtext. "The bird once flew free/now the bird is forever caged" something like that. yuck lol. It's got subtext, but it's badly executed subtext.
In summary, you have to ride the line between obliqueness and clarity. that's where the real poetry lies. But don't get me wrong. I used a super simple, ostensibly direct lyric as an example of good pop lyrics for a reason. It doesn't have to be artsy fartsy to be sophisticated. "Shut up and dance" is a deceptively sophisticated lyric and I hope I've adequately explained why.
"THE BIGGEST INTERVAL"-I think this is an inexhaustive tip, probably for the purpose of simplicity for the people watching. But I caution its inexhaustive quality because it's another example of "giving the songwriter a fish" rather than teaching them how to fish.
A better way to express this is "make the most interesting part of the song the hook." The problem is, it's hard to express what constitutes "interestingness" in a short video. A large intervalic leap is one of an infinite examples of creating interest.
Sometimes, it can be a half-step. The SMALLEST possible interval. "Feel the rain on your skin" the "YOUR skin" is a half step, and it's got a rhythmic emphasis as well. Because that moment of half step was prepared by all whole steps in the rest of the chorus. LIsten to the final "happy birthday to you" in the birthday song. It saves "FA," the fourth degree, for only that one moment. sol sol la sol do ti/sol sol la sol re do/sol sol SOL mi do ti al/ FA FA mi do re do" See how special that FA is because it was saved? and again, no big interval there, just a half step.
There are a million other ways to make your hookline "the most interesting." You can use timing/rhythm. you can use phrase length. you can use a high note. you can use a low note. Instead of thinking "save the biggest interval for the hookline." think "save the most interesting musical moment for the hookline" that takes a lot of experience and practice to identify, but here are a few practice pieces.
"If you're lost you can look and you will find me/time after time" the rhythm, the phrasing, the intervals, are all more interesting than the verse and the prechorus
"wouldn't it be nice" is more interesting than "if we were older"
"strumming my pain with his fingers" is more interesting than "I heard he sang a good song" in terms of rhythm, contour, lyrics, etc.
It's just something to get used to when analyzing tunes. How is the main hook the most interesting part? What are the many ways in which this can be true?
This deserves it’s own video!
Really useful stuff that I'm sure will help me...get going
I really thank you
Some of the greatest songs ever written are just three or even two chords, unchanged throughout. Knocking on Heaven's Door, Guitars and Cadillacs, Battleship Chains to name a few. I think those are actually a lot more difficult to write. Doing more with less or less is more. Whichever cliche you like works well.
Great singing Keppie 😊
Thank you 🫶
That chorus reminds me a bit of Alan Parson's "Eye in the Sky".
Loved this video and the advice!! Have you made a similar video about bridges??
These are some useful tips, but it's important to remember the caveats here. There are many, many exceptions to the rules in this video from hugely successful artists. For example, Led Zeppelin often did not repeat the title of their song in the chorus. Beck's lyrics are non-sensical most of the time and I have no idea what he's talking about. Taylor Swift loops the same four chords throughout many of her songs, including through the verses and choruses - i.e. no chord change in the chorus. So these suggestions are good to keep in mind, but songwriting is more art than science I think.
Thanks so much for this video. I literally had to pause it somewhere in the middle to spend a couple of hours tweaking on the song which struggles brought me here. I've been working on it for months already lol. But I cut down the verses that felt very dragging, into half their lengths, keeping only the core of the story telling in them and making better flowing rhymes, while cutting away all the unnecessary filler stuff. I also sharpened up the chorus to have better lines and rhymes, and at least include the song title once. I couldn't press it in a second time.
But like the one thing I know for sure about this song is its core idea, the story it's telling. Which is a cyborg metaphor for struggling with sex addiction. Yes I choose to keep it subtle, because I don't actually want to have explicit lyrics that I'd be embarrased to sing, which would be required for being direct with such a theme. Also that's the entire point of the metaphor anyway. Ie, the cyborg struggling between its mechanical and human side is a metaphor for me struggling between my logical side vs what my irrational craving. And the part I chose for the chorus I did because it answers why I feel so stuck with that craving, while the other parts (that I chose to be verses) just tell the story and elaborates on the problem.
Then I rewrote the melody for the verses that felt too similar to the chorus, practiced it a few times, made some recordings, and came back to finish watching this video. I feel more satisfied than ever with this song now, but I worry slightly that the verses may still be too strong. I'm happy with the sound of both though and how they harmonize each other. However I still need to figure out a pre-chorus because the current silent gap between verse and chorus feels really off for this type of song, which of course has to be electronic metal. Although in 7/8.
As for my chord progression, I do use the same 4 chords all the way through lol, but in the chorus I add a couple of filler chords in between, and I think that makes it sound smoother and more powerful. However I never start on the tonic chord. I instead end on it every 4th bar. It's G, (Bm,) D, F#, (D,) Bm in harmonic B minor scale. But a thought hit me... maybe I could just flip the chords backwards for the chorus? I dunno, I'll ponder over it. I'll probably need to work on this song for yet another few months lol.
thanks so much. I gave up trying to write songs. Wish I heard these tips years ag0
I couldn't agree more.
Amazing timing. I have a song with (what I think is) a great hook and great lyrics but no freaking chorus. Until now. I wrote the chorus while watching the video. Not sure what I am going to do with the chords as, guess what, its a four chord loop.... But now I have a few ideas. THANK YOU!!! (PS. Subscribed)
I agree with most but a lot of great choruses start with the same as the verse where oc the vocal line is mostly somewhat the opposite in rythm and timing, but often have a pre chorus with a different chord progression. But still, its true that trying different chord is overlooked a lot:) subscribed!
I need to write these tips down, thanks!
So good
Value value value!
Wonderful. Very cool, and I am going to address one song of mine that has the same chords all the way through. Just experiment a bit. I appreciate you two.
Thanks 🙏
🎉Awesome 🎉
Responses:
- question
- action/ decision
- insight/ realization
- peak emotion/what needs to be said
- central metaphor or image
The change to chorus where the dynamics are: is that the bridge?
Your videos are helping me not only understand song writing but to now appreciate the songs I like.
You guys are doing great job, keep it up....❤❤.....from yesterday i was confused and stuck with this same "Chorus" problem in my song .......and couldn't decide that is it chorus or verse❓❓❓.....and u guys literally drop the video about same topic......❤️❤️❤️.....please realese other video related to other parts of the song structure..... Verse, pre Chorus, bridge etc.....
Another great “reverse dynamic” chorus is Digging in the Dirt by Peter Gabriel.
I view it like one writes an essay. The verses are the arguments or observations and the chorus is the central thesis. And, as other commenters have said, a song doesn't need a chorus to be good.
I've come to think of song structure like this:
Chorus = the part that comes around again and again, so you remember and recognize the song.
Verses = tell the story, draws the listener in, to understanding what you're on about.
Bridge = only happens once. HEY, NOW THAT I'VE GOT YOUR ATTENTION, THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO TELL YOU!
That's useful on a surface level but they are doing more than that, the chorus especially. And the less narrative work your chorus does, the better it's gonna need to be musically, cause it *should* actually be fulfilling a narrative function.
Well the verse is setting up an environment for the chorus to happen in. It also does NOT have to make sense. Invoking imagination is a good part of good lyrics.
You're talking basic song writing, aka AABA structure.
Best lesson you could teach a song writer thats just starting out and will save lots of time waisted.
Im a firm believer of letting a song come to you aposed to searching for a song, ive been writing songs for over 20 years and never manufactured one, it comes in.. i write it… almost never change it lyrically and i think theve turned out well..i love my tunes and the feed back is great. i think a song is personal to the writer. I get what your saying but to me… there is no wrong way or right way to write a song.. The problem is, is that when people want them to be a commercial success they have to be written in a certain way to gain Capital Gains! but not for the artist!! Rant over.