Mechanically, the Quarter is basically "one full-price premium item from the Store with a bit left over for other purchases". But is that worth a red heart container? Especially when there's a small )but not nearly small enough) chance that _none_ of the subsequent stores will have anything worth buying?
I take it because 25¢ in the early game is really good. Also, at worse, It's 5 Pickups, which can easily be Soul Hearts, keys and bombs. I think people go hard on it because "it's not Brimstone", but a Quarter is pretty decent for what it is worth.
2spooky has seriously helped me pull some runs of. It just better with more unique short range builds. Or that one where I had really low speed somehow managed to get megasatan
The Quarter appearing in Devil deals is a reference to the 30 coins Judas was rewarded, so i think it'd be neat if taking it on a Devil Deal specifically had an extra effect, maybe giving you extra money every tine you kill a boss.
New item: judas‘s reward Item pools: devil deal, greed devil deal A passive item that on pickup grants +30 coins and gives enemies a chance to drop a coin upon death. Chance scales with luck.
I think you perfectly described why the current devil/angel setup is perfect. You can get more devil deals in your run, and yet you have to pay the price of losing health and finding weaker items. The other choice is to choose angels, which are a little harder to find, but will reward you in stronger items overall. I believe you described in this video why the current meta is the best we've seen.
I think that if a devil room appears after you took your guaranteed angel room and you don’t walk into it next floor will go back to guaranteeing angel deal
6:04. Glyph of Balance is actually insanely powerful and has carried many of my runs. When you're not full hp it makes it so hp is guaranteed to drop which is absolutely crazy. It makes it really hard to run out of HP.
Also, what you said at 9:55 is completely wrong. After skipping your first devil deal, entering future Devil Deals (without taking anything) has absolutely zero effect on your Angel Room chance. The only exception is the first devil deal on the run. Entering that one and leaving without taking anything will make it so your odds of a deal on the next floor will be equally split between Angel Rooms and Devil Rooms. However, not entering the first Devil Deal at all will make it so your deal chances on the next floor are only Angel. Edit: The information above is true assuming you didn't enter an Angel/Devil deal on the first floor via methods of teleportation such as red chests, sacrifice rooms or joker cards.
he's also wrong about not having ways to boost it when you don't have a devil chance because you can get up to 15% extra blowing up keepers and beggars
Glyph of balance can break tainted eve and is a pretty much free won as you get to get the max of the blood clots for free as its a 2 clot per room cleared ratio.
Guy literally missed the point that devil deals are supposed to be weaker due to you being guaranteed at least three, while angel deals require you to sacrifice a potential mom's knife or such to get a usually stronger item later in your angel deal. Like that's the point. Angels are rarer but stronger, while devils are more common but weaker overall.
I would just raise the percentage of getting an Angel deal when you skip the first Devil Deal. So, you skip the first Devil Deal, and the Caves 1 percentage to get a deal is now 67% instead of 33%. It doesn’t guarantee more then 2 Angel deals, but your first guaranteed deal is now Caves 2 instead of Depths 1.
this is exactly what happens when you skip the first deal on basement xl and go to downpour 2, so i don't see why this couldn't be applied to the rest of the floors
While I agree that the item pool of devil deals can be underwhelming I LIKE how angel deals are fleeting and harder to manipulate. It makes sense that it gives you a better reward on average. It's also kind of thematically accurate to the idea of promising your life and faith to something you don't know will pay off.
I think its thematically fitting for angel deals to require you to abstain from devil deals, the point is that devil deal items are suppose to tempt you with potential power but angel deals are reliable but less common. but its anti player, like a lot of small things in repentance.
Yea that’s the problem tho, the supposed “temptation devil items” have the chance to be brother Bobby. I think either devil deals should remove the shitty items or angel deals should be easier to manipilate.
the pool before repentance was garbage, it had sacred/god head but because of the existence of the special pool they were too rare to consider when devil had like 8 items of that same caliber
I feel the reason in AB+ why they weren’t nearly as good is because Angel rooms were a lot harder to get into and a lot of Angel rooms didn’t even have an item.
@@ericpoore2063 i also always go for angel deals in AB+ but not because theyre better than devil deals. Theyre just more fun and risky. That doesnt mean they are good tho.
I liked the last buff you talked about for the angel/deal percent ratio issue, it could solve the problem between the angel deal lovers and the devil deal lovers, letting people do what they want is definitely a great fix.
My tipping point to switch to angel deals after getting rep was having a few runs in a row where I actually got a bunch of devil deals every time, but none of them were worth taking.
Edit: This video is bad and I was bad at repentance stop watching this Couple points to clarify because isaac fans tend to tunnel vision on one thing they hear that they don’t like: I’ve been playing isaac since 2013, have well over 3,000 hours if you include flash, I’ve speedrun the game (hold a WR rn) and had multiple top 10 times in racing plus seasons, I have a good amount of exposure to know what i’m talking about. I like the new angel room buffs a ton, my issue is with the really disconnected devil items, there’s no “okay” item, it’s all insane or bad, we need some buffs or some sort of middle ground. My issue with angel rooms is the encountering and how inconsistent it is, that’s all, and it’s an o p i n i o n, just like you have :) EDIT: literally say at 9:10 that you can do these slight alterations (Blowing up beggars and such) , but fun fact, if you have devil, it boosts that as well! that's why i didn't feel the need to over clarify that you're able to do these alterations, because A) it ranges from 2.5%-15% MAX, which while helpful, is still not game changing nor a guarantee, and B) It also boosts your devil chance when blowing them up, thought this common sense, my b, dont forget too that donating coins is a TRANSFER, does not boost your chance
I dont understand much the part of too little deals. After getting the third deal (first being a skipped devil deal, second and ok/good angel deal) and now you get a third that is a devil deal. Whats preventing you to enter that devil deal? Even if you wanted an angel deal you cant increase your chances more for future angel deals by not entering (that only works on the second floor). So you always enter. If its bad you dont take anything. If its good but you still want an angel deal you also dont take. And if is extreamly good you take. Besides all that, i also think that not talking about all the ways to get devil/angel items by other means is omiting something important about the game as a whole. Angel deals items bia the ultra secret room, alabaster box, self sacrifice rooms, etc. Devil deal bia sacrificial altar, curse rooms, red chest, etc. And in pretty much any run there's at least one or two ways to get 1 extra deal item if you play your cards right. I do agree that the devil deal pool could be better by buffing some of those items.
@@ThePaupepa im not really salty. But i do think there's a lot more than just devil/angel deals % chance when it comes to the meta of the game. Maybe im wrong. Everyone can have their own opinion.
@@santiagovidelaleiva yeah there definitley is, but this wasn't about the pools, moreso the deals. Its easier to find an angel deal than alibaster or an ultra secret room, and i agree that you can acquire the items through a lot of useful means, but im more focused on the deals themselves and if they're fitting rewards for what it takes to find them
Plan C is 100 percent worth taking when you're going for the Dogma route, since it can be used to skip fighting literally all the ultra harbingers and The Beast by using it at any point. It kills The Beast even while it's in the background, and its death animation is faster than Plan C kills you. It's honestly an absolutely incredible find for this reason.
I disagree with most of the points in this video, but I agree that the devil pool is a bit bloated (I think you should give 2spooky another chance though it's actually pretty good). I think the fact that in afterbirth+ no one would ever go for angel deals is exactly what they were trying to rectify in repentance. There is now more of a tradeoff. Do you take the devil deals, which aren't as good and cost health? Or do you skip them and brave lower floors with less powerful items to be rewarded with sacred heart/godhead for free? It's ridiculous to say repentance "punishes players for following the new meta". The whole point is that it's supposed to be a choice that players have to make. I don't think McMillen wants there to be any "meta" at all. He didn't quite succeed because angel deals are the clear best choice now, but the fact that you made this whole video proves that he did at least make it more of a difficult decision for players, which I believe was his intention. Good video though, rant over.
imo 2spooky is a very good item because it can make you completely immune to contact only damage and blood oath is really good with a high amount of red hearts and thats most runs i play. Also, the spike in the middle of the sacrifice room can destroy angels Also, shoelaces
No 2spooky is literely a worse nerfed abbadon.you can:get stomped,hopped,pushed,telefrag, just staight up hit or spidert.also bosses dont spawn in sacrefice rooms..
idk about u but 2spooky is very inconsistent for me and blood oath is just bad at most situations which is as you said high amount of red hearts and maybe 2 soul hearts acting as a shield before you get red hearts, that is literally the only good situation you can be in with blood oath and even when you are in that situation you can throw a run so easily just because of the lack of hearts, imo imo imo
@@LuigisLegend yeah but you cant get charged and most enemies will shoot away from you. This means you will be immune to most enemies. My cousin who played isaac for the first time could clear a couple floor without taking damage because of 2spooky. Also, i am talking about the angels that spawn in the sacrifice rooms on the 11th and 9th sacrifice
I feel bad for maw of the void or serpent kiss, in afterbirth those items were almost overpowered, but now, without this chance for black hearts it made it unworth it, serpent kiss became secound common cold while maw of the void became not worth 2 hearths, I would only consider taking it if it cost 1 hearth, I really miss the old version of that items.
Being someone who skipped AB+ and jumped straight into Repentance, I never got to experience the "good" Maw of the Void. That being said, I still think Maw of the Void is worth the heart container cost, it can carry a run all the way to Sheol or Cathedral by itself since it turns out that a big circular beam that does a ton of damage per tick and can wipe out bosses in seconds is preeeetty good. Even better is the fact that it doesn't override your tear effects like Brimstone and even benefits from homing so you end up having an extra source of damage on top of whatever you currently have. Just because it got nerfed doesn't mean it's bad, it still demolishes. It's a good Devil deal item that you can find early and it'll help you survive long enough to get to the really good items.
Eh, Maw of the Void is still pretty good imo, but I definitely agree that 2 hearts is a bit too much for it right now. Also, I can get why they removed the black heart generation (that was honestly the biggest reason why I took it back then, it was so broken) but why remove the damage up? Tbh, I wouldn't have minded the nerf so much if Ed hadn't removed the damage up since that, along with the circular beam, would have made it worth the 2 red heart cost.
glyph of balance got a MASSIVE buff in repentance and honestly its now worth taking. especially when it gives you 3 soul hearts and drops depending on what you need and it being free. now, dont get me wrong, if i had something like sacred heart or godhead of course ill take them. still, its really useful
They should make Devil deals have only tier 3 items for the first floor, so satan "tempts" you into locking in with devil deals. And then for the rest of the run there's a slightly increased chance for tier 1 and 2 bad items to be offered. it'd fit more thematically and it would sort of give the burden of the player if you lock them in then get only bad items. Change it so you don't ruin your angel chance by entering the room and instead retain 100% for resisting the tier 3 deals
I think the reason the Quarter is in there is for the keeper. He seems to benefit from devil deals more because he can theoretically clear out an entire devil deal room if he has the money, but in most angels rooms he has a choice of 1 item out of 2. Taking the Quarter is free money.
I know the video's a little old but, I don't really understand why Angel Deals being better is supposed to be a bad thing? They take more effort/longterm planning on the player's part in exchange for overall better items that don't cost health, that feels like a logical tradeoff to me.
Regarding your issue 2, the spawn rates of angel rooms, I disagree with the premise of your argument. While yes, you're only guaranteed 1 angel room, your third deal has a pretty good chance to be an angel room assuming you grabbed a key piece; and even when it's not, I'm usually strong enough to pivot to devil rooms at that point in the run anyway. Besides, peeking in the devil room at that point has no downside. Not to mention the possibility of getting lucky on a 33 or 66 percent chance can get you one or two extra deals in a run. You don't need to stick to angels your whole run, nor do you need to play sacrifice rooms (unless you're trying for a Mega Stan kill and you've been really unlucky), so I don't feel like it's a problem at all.
Some ideas for devil deal item buffs. Brother Bobby/Sister Maggy: give them both a ×2 for tears and damage if you're able to unite them Ghost Baby: give it higher damage, and make its tears fear enemies Demon Baby: If it kills enough enemies, it drops a pickup from the same table as Dark Bum (black heart, pill, blue spider etc.) Headless Baby: sprays a fountain of blood shots when enemies get close, like a denser, lower-ranged Boiled Baby Ouija Board: on getting hit, has a chance to spawn a Ghost Baby that lasts for the entire floor (scales with luck) Betrayal: on taking damage, the enemy that dealt the damage (or the nearest enemy, if you weren't hit by one) becomes friendly (permanently charmed), and gets fully healed. Original effect still happens as well Shade: does more damage the more black hearts isaac is holding My Shadow: rather than just chargers, it could spawn a variety of different shadow enemies at random. You might get a really powerful one like a vis or a wizoob Missing Page 2: makes black hearts more common Black Powder: enemies killed by the pentagram have a chance to drop a black heart Multidimensional Baby: increases the damage of tears that pass through it, as well as doubling them. Also gives the tears homing. Dark Prince's Crown: while the crown is active (when isaac is at exactly 1 red heart), chances for a devil deal to appear are increased As for the issue of angel rooms being too unreliable to come by, I reckon they should just make sacrifice rooms more common if you've skipped a devil deal. And make them better at increasing angel room odds.
Thank you for this list, king. I think this is a brilliant series of fixes, and they would go a long way toward fixing the Devil pool! However, I have a few edits: I actually don't think the Demon or Multidimensional Babies need buffs. Multidimensional is situational but powerful (perfectly balanced), and Demon Baby is _vastly_ underrated for killing small enemies that try to mob you. If you have Demon Baby, you're protected from spiders, mini leeches, flies, etc. I almost always take it - especially if I have low Tears. Ghost Baby definitely needs a buff, but IMO it should only have one of the two buffs you proposed. Either it could be spectral and high-damage, or it could be spectral fear shots. Either would be great, but both might be overkill. I also think Dark Prince's Crown is good as-is, although the buff could be nice. I like your Shade rework. I've also heard people try to rework it by either a) making it buff your damage for the room/floor after it deals a certain amount of damage, or b) making it deal more damage after a certain amount of kills/damage dealt. I like the idea that it could give you scaling within rooms, like Lusty Blood. So there are a number of options. Your Black Powder buff might be overkill, but it also might be amazing if the drop rate is low enough (~5%). Either way, I've also heard it might be nice to add a +.3 Speed Up to the item. Now, here's my hot take: Athame should get back its Black Heart generating effect. It makes sense that they took that away from Maw, bc it was just too good. But since you're only getting the Athame to proc when taking damage, I think it's perfectly reasonable to give it a chance to spawn Black Hearts on kill. That way, it'll be like a riskier, more offensive Gimpy. I should also mention that Shovel and Razor Blade straight up need to be removed from the pool. Pound of Flesh and Sanguine Bond could use some buffs, too, but idk how. I love your buffs to My Shadow, BB/Maggy, Ouija Board, Betrayal, Headless Baby, and Missing Page 2! Great list overall.
6:11 Repentance gliph of balance is honestly an amazing item. And as for the devil items, the only ones I agree with are brother bobby, sister Maggy, ghost baby, and ouija board.
I've noticed something, most devil deal items replace something with another thing or add a feature just to name a few, brimstone, abbadon, maw of the void, mom's knife, money=power, and all guppy items fall on this category while angel deals like to mess with stat up and downs but generally keep your tears intact (exceptions being trysagion and spirit sword) examples being, sacred heart, godhead, spear of destiny, revelations, holy grail, and a bunch more
I don't get it, why people suddenly forgot about the polaroid? Polaroid was always like half the reason to take devild deals, it's still a very good item that can carry you, why would you want to lock yourself in angel deals and bloat your red heart hp to then get descimated by most endgame bosses since you pretty much don't have any invincibility frames and most good angel items can't just carry you on their own, while having the polaroid, which is a guaranteed item, and some orbital can save your run. Of course this doesn't apply to a Beast run, since you have you give up the polaroid or the negative, although I would argue that getting 3 soul hearts from the bed is very helpful as well, so there is still a good reason to take devil deals.
I would go about buffing devil in a different way. First, by having at least 2 possible deals in there; maybe something about a bare minimum sum of quality, but I’m not committed to that one. Second, don’t buff the weaker items, but instead make them surrounded by spikes like collectibles with Pound of Flesh. I might not be inclined to take, for example, Ouija Board for a permanent health down, but I would take it for a full heart of damage that was not permanent.
I personally feel like that is a bad choice tbh cause then everyone can just get those items and so on buttttt i think that some devil room items can require one soul heart instead of a normal heart just to make it more balance, you only lose a temporary heart yknow orrrr make it so you give up the heart container and it gives you a soul heart instead which means it doesnt become too broken cause you will have the same health but an extra heart becomes temporary, that is only for items like the pets or whatever and the bad ones that can kill you
I have to be honest. Both 2spooky and quarter are instant takes for me and i never regreted that decision. But you are right about the others. Altough more than devil deals i think my biggest problem in repentance is how bloated is the treasure room pool. Specially because before you could at least get some treasure room items from the golden chests but now they are all boss item pool (this Is not necessary bad) but the thing is that treasure room items only appear on the treasure room. For things like devil/angel deal pool they are plenty of different ways to get them. For secret room pool there is incentive to work to get them. And for boss room pool you just get them constantly. So the biggest pool is literally the one you get the least and also the one you dont want to try to get.
@@LuigisLegend well, it depends of the shop, sometimes its really pog. What i like about quarter Is that you can buy a pog shop item that you seen in the floor but you didnt have the money to buy it.
angel deals all about the faith that not taking devil deals will have the angels reward you. That's how I like to look at it when I get the minimal amount of rooms (:
Blood Oath is absolutely worth buying with the right setup (ie. A couple of spirit hearts and confidence in your dodging skills). I love it on Maggy, it fixes her speed and basically turns her into Samson.
Sacrifice rooms can literally teleport you to angels, and also, gambling IS the point of TBoI, if you always got what you wanted it'd be repetitive and boring, Yes, angel deals should get a buff even now but you are forgetting that there are thousands of ways to re-roll, create more items and dance around the bad luck, and also, Angel deals are not free, they cost you the chance of never seeing the other item ever again.
Truthfully it depends who you're playing as; For example someone like ??? or Judas would be better suited for Angel deals regarding their lackluster HP stats while someone like Maggy or The Lost work more efficiently with Devil Deals. Universally Angel deals are the way to go since they're free, but they require a little more skill and mechanic knowledge (not to mention luck).
New glyph of balance is actually broken btw. The triggers were tweaked to actually be EXTREMELY useful, and you don't notice how good it is, but trust me, it's insane.
It would be cool that if you decided to not enter the devil in basement 2 it would give you a guaranteed angel deal, similar to the planetariums (Assuming you didn’t take any damage)
I agree with almost everything in this video, but why the hate for 2spooky? Fear aura makes you basically immune to enemies that chase you. It's an entire method of taking damage that you no longer have to worry about which can help you get theough a ton of difficult rooms unscathed. It can save you from a ton of damage on the first 9 floors. I always take 2spooky.
I remember when I first started repentance. I stayed away from spoilers on items, had a pretty decent run with the lost and gnawed leaf with some familiars and orbitals, not knowing what 2spooky did picked it up and completely ruined my strategy to have enemies come to me lol, eventually died on mother
You can boost angel room spawn rate after skipping first devil deal the same way you boost devil deals (beggars, shopkeepers, items which boost devil deal chance)
Ik people are focused on your opinions on individual items (there's like 100 comments talking about you saying Glyph of Balance is bad) but the ideas and solutions you present, especially the idea of bombing the Satan Statue, would add alot more agency to getting Devil or Angel Deals. It's a really cool idea especially considering how much thematic sense it makes given items like Redemption, which rewards you for rejecting Devil Deals. Good video, hope Eddy see this.
9:58 This doesn't make sense unless I'm missing something, isn't the only reason to not walk inside a Devil deal to guarantee that your next deal will be an Angel deal? This only works once, so if your run consists of skipping the first devil deal, getting an angel deal, and then getting a devil deal, skipping it won't give you another guaranteed angel deal, and so you may as well check it out?
He's talking about someone who want to get all the angel deals possible, even if you enter in to a devil deal room you still can't get anything if you want a percentage to get an angel deal on the next floor
Nice vid, your calculations omit one key thing though. While devil deals are worse, you can potentially grab 3 items. Angel deals are free, but you can only select one. So really a risky player might have 3 devil items to the angel 1, which offsets the power disparity a bit
(I apologize if tears up was added after the video was made.) you bring up the Ouija board and how they should add more to it, you can shoot through obstacles and you get a tears up, it’s a good item for the 1 heart cost.. I honestly don’t think it needs more- with that said though… you ain’t wrong, why tf is a quarter in the devil deal? 😂
So i don't get it you say angel deals are overpowered (relative to devil deals), but then spell out the major deficit they have (their reliability). I think devil/angel deals are mostly balanced as is in this patch. The angel deal functions as a higher risk alternative to devil deals. Ultimately I find taking angel vs devil deals is more contingent on the character rather than always going angel deal.
This video is good, but 2spooky is the single most underrated item in all of isaac. You can not take it if you want but your missing out on an item that maked you basically unable to ne hit by contact damage
I feel that most people dislike 2spooky because it makes enemy movement unpredictable at times on top of Repentance enemies already being somewhat difficult.
if lquater would get a buff it would be better if it was more of a tear replacement but its more of a better reskin of the greed head item, it would be the freed head item but instead shooting out the normal gold coint you shoot out a weaker silver coin to give a slight balance but still being quite OP
I think that its just boring to go one deal for eternity, even if repentance had not buffed angel i would still go for angel sometimes (yes i did start on rep, about the time of the 4.04 update but i knew a lot about the game before even starting)
The idea of Krampus is an interesting one but it doesn't work too well thematically. The reason why the Devil chance will always be there is because the temptation of sin is always present in man. The Devil will ALWAYS be waiting for you to come back, and he'll be ready. It's only in the rejection of sin (Ignoring the deal, Eucharist, etc) that you are rewarded for your faith. But as the bible says, good deeds aren't a free ride into the Lord's favor
Just to start, 2Spoopy basically makes you immune to contact based enemies. Blood oath lets you used 'taken damage' items in bulk without having to find a devil begger or blood bank which can be really busted if you have alot of hearts, similiar to sanguine bond which can just be busted with any build that makes health regen stronger. Monster manual was massively buffed, with familiars for the whole floor.
2spooky is only good if you’re decently new to the game, the fear makes enemies unpredictable and usually leads to more damage. Blood path is not worth the small damage up it gives you unless you’re maggy and rewards having tons oh red hearts which you spend on devil deals anyways
To be honest, I do agree with all of the points in the video. And amazing work with the editing, Cosbat! YOu made it easy to follow along with the thoughts and statements, mad props to you.
keeper, miser, and a pound of flesh. even then its just a free 10 cents, but thats literally the only times its worth taking. Unless if your goal is to get rid of red health, but than any devil deal will do
@@scrubecruise8223 quater is also worth if youve got converter as tainted beth or t judas in the shop. There are a lot of situations where because of the shop its worth a consideration but even then those are rare
@@Killroy007 oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it is also worth taking if you got a one item break that gives you infinite health. even then its not really worth the time spent grabbing it unless you need money, which because of the nerf to shops you will get plenty enough money without taking the quarter out of the devil deal
I used to agree with this a lot, but my thoughts have changed since then and I have some concerns: 1. Bombing for Krampus could just make this the reverse situation of Pre-Rep Isaac where now devil is seen a lot rarer by the playerbase as a whole. Player agency is nice, but I don't think being able to lock out devil most runs is great-it's not like Krampus can't be no-hit. 2. I think people also aren't giving devil a fair chance. People judge too harshly off the first deal as if that's the only devil deal you can get. Another thing to consider is that even if Angel is 'free' (with risks), you can only pick up one item, while devil lets you pick up multiple. Devil also has more multi-item layouts than Angel, you can and do get more items on average. I genuinely think both of them are balanced when you consider that (and also that Angel takes longer). I don't even understand why people skip for angel anymore. How do you know Angel would be better if you never checked the devil layout? And why are you scared of getting devil for your second deal when you'd have more health to pay for good items then? Oh! Also, Quarter's fine. You're selling your soul for riches, that's a classic deal-with-the-devil trope! You pay one container for two shop items, that's not bad; shop has some good stuff. At worse, you can just buy back with soul hearts.
A small nitpick is that you can also transfer devil room chance to angel room chance by donating 10 coins to donation machines, you also *can* walk inside devil deals after you already got your first angel deal *and* if you're willing to play sacrificial rooms you can get a couple deals you'd miss.
I'd also like to point out some 2heart deal items have been nerfed to the point they aren't worth 2 hearts anymore. Maw of the Void off the top of my head.
I respectfully disagree. Even without black heart generation, Maw is still cracked. You just have to rely on it for damage against bosses and self-defense against trash mobs (spiders, leeches, flies). The coverage and DPS still justify it to me, IMO. In my mind, it's Athame that's totally useless now.
@@Drekromancer Taking away the black heart generation is fine, taking away the damage buff is fine, but they did both. It's now a novel item that is only useful if you are going to change your whole play style to adjust to it, and yet it still costs 2 hearts.
While I love the breakdown I can't agree with it. Angel room is loaded with few and very good items but the path to an angel deal is also narrow and full of potential loss of opportunity. The item being "Free" doesn't quite make sense when you consider this loss. Devil rooms on the other hand have alot less reliability in getting any one item but in a game of RNG that increased power you get from the basement II devil deal is still worthwhile if you are dealt crappy item rooms and food items. Not to mention just how powerful guppy transformation is. I also feel that depending on where you are in the game Devil rooms on average get more worthwhile, Even if items like betrayal and board do need a buff or more interesting effects.
I got a few fun ideas of my own. - Instead of just denying devil deals for the rest of the run, make it so that you can bomb the satan statue sometimes, for a small boss fight against Krampus (or Fallen or even the dark angels from the mega satan fight), and it lowers the hearts cost of all items in that devil room by a heart (so, 1 heart items become free, 2 hearts items become 1 etc). this gives you a chance to get cheaper good items, or, if the items sucks, at least it's free. (a different reward is also cool, but I like the idea of having a bombable boss in devil rooms as well) - Devil deals give extra boosts. Similar to how Keeper's sack, or soul locket gives a random stat boost at certain actions, make it so that devil deals always give an extra boost as well, or perhaps a 1-floor book of belial effect or something. A small extra incentive to cancel out the weaker deal. (this is partially because a lot of these items can also be found elsewhere. buffing the item would then also change the balance of, for example, Ouija board in regular treasure room, or secret rooms with guppy items and stuff. this way the buff is to the devil deal directly) - Add more good devil deal items :) -ALSO REMOVE RED CHEST DEALS DARN IT. At least give me an actual item.
Ever since my AB† days I've had the mod which makes angel bosses drop items after you get the key pieces installed. I would never want to remove it as it makes sacrifice rooms way more worthwhile, even when they give you a devil deal at 60% angel chance: I can still get at least one angel item from the angel bosses. Even with this I agree that in Repentance the deals feel way more frustrating, since you're generally trying to get angel ones, and those can still sometimes give you no item, and there's characters that make it really hard to even get a deal. Unlike AB† we can at least consistently get the key pieces even without sacrifice rooms, whereas before I had plenty of runs where my dreams of fighting mega satan never came to fruition.
I want to say that there is a mod on the workshop that I use which makes devil statues bombable, like your suggestion at the end. However, the way that it works is that once you bomb the statue, the items that are not picked up in the room disappear, and one of the fallen angels from the mega satan fight appears. After killing said fallen angel, you're rewarded with a random devil deal item that isn't necessarily what was seen before you bombed the statue (taking this item DOES NOT nullify you from getting angel deals. I personally think this mod makes devil deals much more viable and fun, as you can get a devil deal item and still get angel rooms later.
yes, we flame the item that changed enemy patterns and makes it 12x easier to corner yourself in a room and call the item that just deals extra damage to enemies on the ground a neutral good item
One small thing, around the 8 minute mark: You CAN boost your angel deal chance in Caves 1/Caves 2. During that phase of the game, any devil deal chance you get is immediately transferred over to Angel deal chance until you see your first angel deal. This means that things that boost your overall deal chance will still boost your chances during that time. These things include (percentages still subject to "last seen deal" modifier): -Bombing Shopkeepers (+10%) -Bombing Coin or Battery Beggars (+35%) -Picking up Pentagram (+10%, plus another 5% if you can get a second one) -Holding Book of Belial, or Book of Revelations (12.5% for Belial, 17.5% for Revelations) -Having Satanic Bible Wisps (10% per Wisp up to 50%) -Goathead or Eucharist (Guarantees a deal. Goathead still allows Angel deals if it's taken from a non-devil deal source, like Curse rooms or Red chests)
Someone please make that Krampus fight from blowing up the Satan statue idea into a mod. That would be an AWESOME thing. Also, I feel like a nice buff to Devil rooms would be if entering the one on Basement 2, but NOT taking any deals still made your next deal be forced Angel, so you actually enter the first one and can see if it's worth taking a deal or not in the first place. Or just make Basement 2 be a 50-50 for Devil/Angel.
Angel deal or devil deal meta works depending on the character you're playing as. As (tainted) Lost I always go for devil deals unless the first one is really not worth it. With the buff of sac rooms it can also be worth it to check out devil deals with high hp characters (like Maggy). If you're on 1-2 hearts after the second floor, skipping the devil room is the best option. Angel deals have one problem: if you aren't lucky and don't get one by floor 3 and your first angel deal on floor 4 isn't a run saving item (like godhead or sacred heart) you'll struggle through the next floors. I honestly like the balance as it is right now. Devil deals have risks: not being that great but having items such as Brimstone, Abaddon, Mark, Pentagram and potentially boosting your damage a lot. Angel deals have the % problem I mentioned before. You have to be somewhat lucky to make them work. Some devil deal items could be buffed but not too much as that would completely ruin the balance again.
uhh you dont need a sacrifice room because if you dont enter the first devil deal deals will always be angel so you are guaranteed more than 1 angel also since you get more devil deals in a run it makes sense for the pool to be not as good as angel but angel doesnt have any insta win items like brim or mums knife but it does have sacred heart and godhead which are still really good some of the best in game so i would say what they've done has balanced the meta but if you made the devil deals anny better it would be the meta by a long shot even if its changed just a bit
Plan C in devil deal literally made my mother run as tainted lost, its super situational but on challenge characters its worth considering to get a checkmark in if you feel like you aren't making it. Oueeja board only if i have flight and a abundance of red/soul hearts, blood oath only on red heart damage centric characters aka with high red health recovery (both maggies) or who deal more damage on hit (both samsons, lilith)
The biggest thing that killed devil deals was the nerfs to health. Not only was every single soul heart generating item massively nerfed by a factor of 1.5 to 2 times, but tinted rocks are more rare and hearts just appear less. This alone makes devil deals too expensive.
demon turret buddy has great dps, glyph of balance is a run saver, and, *statistically* you get more than one angel deal. also the skipping devil deals only works on the first one.
Ouija board: Ghost themed items and some death related items receive buffs. Maggie and Bobby: Give Maggy more damage and Bobby more tear rate. When found together they would both share each others advantage and also stand next to each other. Give them bigger tears in general. Quarter: Increases chance of finding higher value coin pickups. 2Spooky (I think this item is fine but): Feared enemies take 1.2X damage from all sources. Razor: Just buff the effects immensely.
I perfecly understand what's the point of your video, still I personally think both rooms are actually balanced, devil room can give you red chests or fight against Krampus to give you A Lump Of Coal (or his head, you know), then you have angel room, with very good items BUT it's really hard to make it appear, so I think it's fair.
The thing about devil deals vs angel deals is that yes a devil deal cost hearts but you can take multiple items and in angel deals there are more than one option you can only take 1
Repentance is peak Isaac, overall net positive by a lot. Playing on Xbox no mods, almost 100%, frustrating but fun. Which is constant through all versions Also the nitpicks about deals, think of deals as getting lucky. Don't rely on them, you can definitely make a run successful with certain moves you make each floor.
Usually I would just go for devil deals and then hope for angel items in the sac rooms. Best of both worlds, and the prospect of running into hard bosses with sacred heart and brimstone but half a soul heart makes the game more fun and stressful.
I think the Quarter is both really funny and kinda fitting. Selling your soul for a quarter just seems so funny for isaac.
He also says no one ever takes it but I take it especially if there’s champion belt or other good items in the shop
It stops being funny when you keep getting it instead of a useful item.
Mechanically, the Quarter is basically "one full-price premium item from the Store with a bit left over for other purchases". But is that worth a red heart container? Especially when there's a small )but not nearly small enough) chance that _none_ of the subsequent stores will have anything worth buying?
I take it because 25¢ in the early game is really good. Also, at worse, It's 5 Pickups, which can easily be Soul Hearts, keys and bombs. I think people go hard on it because "it's not Brimstone", but a Quarter is pretty decent for what it is worth.
u can also get it in greed mode so it is really useful say u bought a hp up u technically just got a free 10 cents
"No sane person would evee buy 2 spooky"
Welp there goes my sanity
Poor man's Virgo
dw spooky is quite good
Spooky + orbital. Any orbital can easy clear allot of rooms. Its really underrated. Sure its not phenomenal but it isnt as bad as people say
Me as the lost: its free tho
2spooky has seriously helped me pull some runs of. It just better with more unique short range builds. Or that one where I had really low speed somehow managed to get megasatan
The Quarter appearing in Devil deals is a reference to the 30 coins Judas was rewarded, so i think it'd be neat if taking it on a Devil Deal specifically had an extra effect, maybe giving you extra money every tine you kill a boss.
At that point, why not just make a new item for that
@@CassietheReal Bloody Quarter :)
New item: judas‘s reward
Item pools: devil deal, greed devil deal
A passive item that on pickup grants +30 coins and gives enemies a chance to drop a coin upon death. Chance scales with luck.
IMO I this is in general the idea of giving life for money/wealth.
@@dededeletethis9940 bag of silver coins
I think you perfectly described why the current devil/angel setup is perfect. You can get more devil deals in your run, and yet you have to pay the price of losing health and finding weaker items. The other choice is to choose angels, which are a little harder to find, but will reward you in stronger items overall. I believe you described in this video why the current meta is the best we've seen.
love how even with how bad the devil pool is you still can get a “deal” of 3 red chests
i mean same goes for angel deals, eternal cehsts and all
i mean... that stuff is free tho. sure it's usually not much but it's something most of the time.
@@spectacularsceptile3879 usually spiders and tears down pills
@@TheKiwijord and troll bombs
@@bd1pLP i send you something on discord don’t know why
2spooky basically gives you immunity to enemies that chase you
Yeah but that could screw you up with your split second decision making.
Ill give it to you, 2Spooky + Censer/Gnawed Leaf/Tiny Planet is pretty good
@@asierx7047 What's the point of Tiny Planet and Gnawed Leaf? You can't shoot and be invincible lol
@@GustavRex i was thinking taking only one of the 3, hence why i used "/" instead of "+"
Unless is one of those annoying enemies that jumps, i hate those
You CAN walk into devil rooms after you've gotten your first guaranteed angel room, because it's gonna be split regardless.
And there's the chance of Duality being in there, which would guarantee you one more Angel Room assuming you play well enough.
I think that if a devil room appears after you took your guaranteed angel room and you don’t walk into it next floor will go back to guaranteeing angel deal
@@cenni1887 That's a negatory. After your first Angel room, odds of both go back to normal no matter what.
6:04. Glyph of Balance is actually insanely powerful and has carried many of my runs. When you're not full hp it makes it so hp is guaranteed to drop which is absolutely crazy. It makes it really hard to run out of HP.
Also, what you said at 9:55 is completely wrong. After skipping your first devil deal, entering future Devil Deals (without taking anything) has absolutely zero effect on your Angel Room chance. The only exception is the first devil deal on the run. Entering that one and leaving without taking anything will make it so your odds of a deal on the next floor will be equally split between Angel Rooms and Devil Rooms. However, not entering the first Devil Deal at all will make it so your deal chances on the next floor are only Angel.
Edit: The information above is true assuming you didn't enter an Angel/Devil deal on the first floor via methods of teleportation such as red chests, sacrifice rooms or joker cards.
he's also wrong about not having ways to boost it when you don't have a devil chance because you can get up to 15% extra blowing up keepers and beggars
Glyph of balance can break tainted eve and is a pretty much free won as you get to get the max of the blood clots for free as its a 2 clot per room cleared ratio.
@@xayahnepo I'm pretty sure with Glyph of Balance rooms still have a chance to drop nothing, meaning that it's not quite a 2 clots per room ratio.
@@malicioususer1837 They buffed it. It USED to be like that but now its a legit 100% chance to drop a heart if you aren't full hp
Guy literally missed the point that devil deals are supposed to be weaker due to you being guaranteed at least three, while angel deals require you to sacrifice a potential mom's knife or such to get a usually stronger item later in your angel deal.
Like that's the point. Angels are rarer but stronger, while devils are more common but weaker overall.
I would just raise the percentage of getting an Angel deal when you skip the first Devil Deal. So, you skip the first Devil Deal, and the Caves 1 percentage to get a deal is now 67% instead of 33%. It doesn’t guarantee more then 2 Angel deals, but your first guaranteed deal is now Caves 2 instead of Depths 1.
this is exactly what happens when you skip the first deal on basement xl and go to downpour 2, so i don't see why this couldn't be applied to the rest of the floors
@@sigmakono well, that’s a property of XL floors, not Downpour. But yeah, it seems like a simple enough change
You know how pissed i was get only 1 angel deal until womb and it being dead sea scrolls 🤦♂️
While I agree that the item pool of devil deals can be underwhelming I LIKE how angel deals are fleeting and harder to manipulate. It makes sense that it gives you a better reward on average. It's also kind of thematically accurate to the idea of promising your life and faith to something you don't know will pay off.
I think its thematically fitting for angel deals to require you to abstain from devil deals, the point is that devil deal items are suppose to tempt you with potential power but angel deals are reliable but less common.
but its anti player, like a lot of small things in repentance.
Yea that’s the problem tho, the supposed “temptation devil items” have the chance to be brother Bobby. I think either devil deals should remove the shitty items or angel deals should be easier to manipilate.
I think angel deals have been good since plus, because they had a free item that could of been really strong, and only has a couple bad items
the pool before repentance was garbage, it had sacred/god head but because of the existence of the special pool they were too rare to consider when devil had like 8 items of that same caliber
@@bd1pLP very true, but I still found myself taking an angel deal majority of time
I feel the reason in AB+ why they weren’t nearly as good is because Angel rooms were a lot harder to get into and a lot of Angel rooms didn’t even have an item.
@@ericpoore2063 i also always go for angel deals in AB+ but not because theyre better than devil deals. Theyre just more fun and risky. That doesnt mean they are good tho.
@@ericpoore2063 4 soul hearts and 2 eternal hearts i think is much better than some items anyways
I liked the last buff you talked about for the angel/deal percent ratio issue, it could solve the problem between the angel deal lovers and the devil deal lovers, letting people do what they want is definitely a great fix.
The idea of bombing the satan statue and fighting krampus sounds like it would be fun and I would definitely do it for every run
2:48 *Laughs in Flash Isaac, where Angel deals are even worse*
My tipping point to switch to angel deals after getting rep was having a few runs in a row where I actually got a bunch of devil deals every time, but none of them were worth taking.
Repentance was such a good addition. I think Angel and Devil Deals are way more balanced now.
Edit: This video is bad and I was bad at repentance stop watching this
Couple points to clarify because isaac fans tend to tunnel vision on one thing they hear that they don’t like:
I’ve been playing isaac since 2013, have well over 3,000 hours if you include flash, I’ve speedrun the game (hold a WR rn) and had multiple top 10 times in racing plus seasons, I have a good amount of exposure to know what i’m talking about.
I like the new angel room buffs a ton, my issue is with the really disconnected devil items, there’s no “okay” item, it’s all insane or bad, we need some buffs or some sort of middle ground. My issue with angel rooms is the encountering and how inconsistent it is, that’s all, and it’s an o p i n i o n, just like you have :)
EDIT: literally say at 9:10 that you can do these slight alterations (Blowing up beggars and such) , but fun fact, if you have devil, it boosts that as well! that's why i didn't feel the need to over clarify that you're able to do these alterations, because A) it ranges from 2.5%-15% MAX, which while helpful, is still not game changing nor a guarantee, and B) It also boosts your devil chance when blowing them up, thought this common sense, my b, dont forget too that donating coins is a TRANSFER, does not boost your chance
TIL you hold a WR
I dont understand much the part of too little deals. After getting the third deal (first being a skipped devil deal, second and ok/good angel deal) and now you get a third that is a devil deal.
Whats preventing you to enter that devil deal? Even if you wanted an angel deal you cant increase your chances more for future angel deals by not entering (that only works on the second floor).
So you always enter. If its bad you dont take anything. If its good but you still want an angel deal you also dont take. And if is extreamly good you take.
Besides all that, i also think that not talking about all the ways to get devil/angel items by other means is omiting something important about the game as a whole.
Angel deals items bia the ultra secret room, alabaster box, self sacrifice rooms, etc. Devil deal bia sacrificial altar, curse rooms, red chest, etc.
And in pretty much any run there's at least one or two ways to get 1 extra deal item if you play your cards right.
I do agree that the devil deal pool could be better by buffing some of those items.
Man, I can see some salty people in here, I didn't thought that Isaac could be so divided by elitism and gatekeeping.
@@ThePaupepa im not really salty. But i do think there's a lot more than just devil/angel deals % chance when it comes to the meta of the game.
Maybe im wrong. Everyone can have their own opinion.
@@santiagovidelaleiva yeah there definitley is, but this wasn't about the pools, moreso the deals. Its easier to find an angel deal than alibaster or an ultra secret room, and i agree that you can acquire the items through a lot of useful means, but im more focused on the deals themselves and if they're fitting rewards for what it takes to find them
Amazing and well made video. The editing was amazing aswell. The idea with krampus is really cool imo.
Plan C is 100 percent worth taking when you're going for the Dogma route, since it can be used to skip fighting literally all the ultra harbingers and The Beast by using it at any point. It kills The Beast even while it's in the background, and its death animation is faster than Plan C kills you. It's honestly an absolutely incredible find for this reason.
If it’s a speed run for home then absolutely
even without an extra life? thats crazy. That is good to know
@@acfreak55 if you have an extra life it saves you still
@@primitivechef8009 No it doesn't. The run ends before Plan C kills you. The extra life does nothing. You already won.
@@wannabecinnabon huh didn’t know that was the case thx for letting me knoe
I disagree with most of the points in this video, but I agree that the devil pool is a bit bloated (I think you should give 2spooky another chance though it's actually pretty good). I think the fact that in afterbirth+ no one would ever go for angel deals is exactly what they were trying to rectify in repentance. There is now more of a tradeoff. Do you take the devil deals, which aren't as good and cost health? Or do you skip them and brave lower floors with less powerful items to be rewarded with sacred heart/godhead for free?
It's ridiculous to say repentance "punishes players for following the new meta". The whole point is that it's supposed to be a choice that players have to make. I don't think McMillen wants there to be any "meta" at all. He didn't quite succeed because angel deals are the clear best choice now, but the fact that you made this whole video proves that he did at least make it more of a difficult decision for players, which I believe was his intention.
Good video though, rant over.
I always go for angel rooms
Better/more useful items imo
imo 2spooky is a very good item because it can make you completely immune to contact only damage and blood oath is really good with a high amount of red hearts and thats most runs i play. Also, the spike in the middle of the sacrifice room can destroy angels
Also, shoelaces
No 2spooky is literely a worse nerfed abbadon.you can:get stomped,hopped,pushed,telefrag,
just staight up hit or spidert.also bosses dont spawn in sacrefice rooms..
idk about u but 2spooky is very inconsistent for me and blood oath is just bad at most situations which is as you said high amount of red hearts and maybe 2 soul hearts acting as a shield before you get red hearts, that is literally the only good situation you can be in with blood oath and even when you are in that situation you can throw a run so easily just because of the lack of hearts, imo imo imo
@@LuigisLegend someone's getting a lump of coal this christmas...
@@LuigisLegend yeah but you cant get charged and most enemies will shoot away from you. This means you will be immune to most enemies. My cousin who played isaac for the first time could clear a couple floor without taking damage because of 2spooky. Also, i am talking about the angels that spawn in the sacrifice rooms on the 11th and 9th sacrifice
@@richardwatson1254 i go angle deal they are better
I feel bad for maw of the void or serpent kiss, in afterbirth those items were almost overpowered, but now, without this chance for black hearts it made it unworth it, serpent kiss became secound common cold while maw of the void became not worth 2 hearths, I would only consider taking it if it cost 1 hearth, I really miss the old version of that items.
Being someone who skipped AB+ and jumped straight into Repentance, I never got to experience the "good" Maw of the Void. That being said, I still think Maw of the Void is worth the heart container cost, it can carry a run all the way to Sheol or Cathedral by itself since it turns out that a big circular beam that does a ton of damage per tick and can wipe out bosses in seconds is preeeetty good. Even better is the fact that it doesn't override your tear effects like Brimstone and even benefits from homing so you end up having an extra source of damage on top of whatever you currently have. Just because it got nerfed doesn't mean it's bad, it still demolishes. It's a good Devil deal item that you can find early and it'll help you survive long enough to get to the really good items.
Eh, Maw of the Void is still pretty good imo, but I definitely agree that 2 hearts is a bit too much for it right now. Also, I can get why they removed the black heart generation (that was honestly the biggest reason why I took it back then, it was so broken) but why remove the damage up? Tbh, I wouldn't have minded the nerf so much if Ed hadn't removed the damage up since that, along with the circular beam, would have made it worth the 2 red heart cost.
@@henzy7397 it doesn't need a damage up just like Brimstone doesn't, the circular beam already melts things.
Guys what about serpent Kiss? 😭✌️😭
Maw is still good but I agree that it is too expensive.
glyph of balance got a MASSIVE buff in repentance and honestly its now worth taking. especially when it gives you 3 soul hearts and drops depending on what you need and it being free. now, dont get me wrong, if i had something like sacred heart or godhead of course ill take them. still, its really useful
They should make Devil deals have only tier 3 items for the first floor, so satan "tempts" you into locking in with devil deals. And then for the rest of the run there's a slightly increased chance for tier 1 and 2 bad items to be offered. it'd fit more thematically and it would sort of give the burden of the player if you lock them in then get only bad items. Change it so you don't ruin your angel chance by entering the room and instead retain 100% for resisting the tier 3 deals
I think the reason the Quarter is in there is for the keeper. He seems to benefit from devil deals more because he can theoretically clear out an entire devil deal room if he has the money, but in most angels rooms he has a choice of 1 item out of 2. Taking the Quarter is free money.
I know the video's a little old but, I don't really understand why Angel Deals being better is supposed to be a bad thing? They take more effort/longterm planning on the player's part in exchange for overall better items that don't cost health, that feels like a logical tradeoff to me.
Regarding your issue 2, the spawn rates of angel rooms, I disagree with the premise of your argument. While yes, you're only guaranteed 1 angel room, your third deal has a pretty good chance to be an angel room assuming you grabbed a key piece; and even when it's not, I'm usually strong enough to pivot to devil rooms at that point in the run anyway. Besides, peeking in the devil room at that point has no downside. Not to mention the possibility of getting lucky on a 33 or 66 percent chance can get you one or two extra deals in a run. You don't need to stick to angels your whole run, nor do you need to play sacrifice rooms (unless you're trying for a Mega Stan kill and you've been really unlucky), so I don't feel like it's a problem at all.
Some ideas for devil deal item buffs.
Brother Bobby/Sister Maggy: give them both a ×2 for tears and damage if you're able to unite them
Ghost Baby: give it higher damage, and make its tears fear enemies
Demon Baby: If it kills enough enemies, it drops a pickup from the same table as Dark Bum (black heart, pill, blue spider etc.)
Headless Baby: sprays a fountain of blood shots when enemies get close, like a denser, lower-ranged Boiled Baby
Ouija Board: on getting hit, has a chance to spawn a Ghost Baby that lasts for the entire floor (scales with luck)
Betrayal: on taking damage, the enemy that dealt the damage (or the nearest enemy, if you weren't hit by one) becomes friendly (permanently charmed), and gets fully healed. Original effect still happens as well
Shade: does more damage the more black hearts isaac is holding
My Shadow: rather than just chargers, it could spawn a variety of different shadow enemies at random. You might get a really powerful one like a vis or a wizoob
Missing Page 2: makes black hearts more common
Black Powder: enemies killed by the pentagram have a chance to drop a black heart
Multidimensional Baby: increases the damage of tears that pass through it, as well as doubling them. Also gives the tears homing.
Dark Prince's Crown: while the crown is active (when isaac is at exactly 1 red heart), chances for a devil deal to appear are increased
As for the issue of angel rooms being too unreliable to come by, I reckon they should just make sacrifice rooms more common if you've skipped a devil deal. And make them better at increasing angel room odds.
I almost tottaly agree with you
Thank you for this list, king. I think this is a brilliant series of fixes, and they would go a long way toward fixing the Devil pool! However, I have a few edits:
I actually don't think the Demon or Multidimensional Babies need buffs. Multidimensional is situational but powerful (perfectly balanced), and Demon Baby is _vastly_ underrated for killing small enemies that try to mob you. If you have Demon Baby, you're protected from spiders, mini leeches, flies, etc. I almost always take it - especially if I have low Tears.
Ghost Baby definitely needs a buff, but IMO it should only have one of the two buffs you proposed. Either it could be spectral and high-damage, or it could be spectral fear shots. Either would be great, but both might be overkill.
I also think Dark Prince's Crown is good as-is, although the buff could be nice.
I like your Shade rework. I've also heard people try to rework it by either a) making it buff your damage for the room/floor after it deals a certain amount of damage, or b) making it deal more damage after a certain amount of kills/damage dealt. I like the idea that it could give you scaling within rooms, like Lusty Blood. So there are a number of options.
Your Black Powder buff might be overkill, but it also might be amazing if the drop rate is low enough (~5%). Either way, I've also heard it might be nice to add a +.3 Speed Up to the item.
Now, here's my hot take: Athame should get back its Black Heart generating effect. It makes sense that they took that away from Maw, bc it was just too good. But since you're only getting the Athame to proc when taking damage, I think it's perfectly reasonable to give it a chance to spawn Black Hearts on kill. That way, it'll be like a riskier, more offensive Gimpy.
I should also mention that Shovel and Razor Blade straight up need to be removed from the pool. Pound of Flesh and Sanguine Bond could use some buffs, too, but idk how.
I love your buffs to My Shadow, BB/Maggy, Ouija Board, Betrayal, Headless Baby, and Missing Page 2! Great list overall.
6:11 Repentance gliph of balance is honestly an amazing item. And as for the devil items, the only ones I agree with are brother bobby, sister Maggy, ghost baby, and ouija board.
I've noticed something, most devil deal items replace something with another thing or add a feature just to name a few,
brimstone, abbadon, maw of the void, mom's knife, money=power, and all guppy items fall on this category while angel deals like to mess with stat up and downs but generally keep your tears intact (exceptions being trysagion and spirit sword)
examples being, sacred heart, godhead, spear of destiny, revelations, holy grail, and a bunch more
I don't get it, why people suddenly forgot about the polaroid? Polaroid was always like half the reason to take devild deals, it's still a very good item that can carry you, why would you want to lock yourself in angel deals and bloat your red heart hp to then get descimated by most endgame bosses since you pretty much don't have any invincibility frames and most good angel items can't just carry you on their own, while having the polaroid, which is a guaranteed item, and some orbital can save your run.
Of course this doesn't apply to a Beast run, since you have you give up the polaroid or the negative, although I would argue that getting 3 soul hearts from the bed is very helpful as well, so there is still a good reason to take devil deals.
sounds like you're just bad at dodging kappa
yeah exactly isaac players are insane
I would go about buffing devil in a different way. First, by having at least 2 possible deals in there; maybe something about a bare minimum sum of quality, but I’m not committed to that one. Second, don’t buff the weaker items, but instead make them surrounded by spikes like collectibles with Pound of Flesh. I might not be inclined to take, for example, Ouija Board for a permanent health down, but I would take it for a full heart of damage that was not permanent.
I personally feel like that is a bad choice tbh cause then everyone can just get those items and so on buttttt i think that some devil room items can require one soul heart instead of a normal heart just to make it more balance, you only lose a temporary heart yknow orrrr make it so you give up the heart container and it gives you a soul heart instead which means it doesnt become too broken cause you will have the same health but an extra heart becomes temporary, that is only for items like the pets or whatever and the bad ones that can kill you
thatd make them way too good, just make red chests less common and thats it
The editing in this video is so smooth! I especially love the knife transition at 2:03!
(Edit: Saw the name at the end, shout out to Cosbat!)
I have found that sacred heart is more common than brimstone. Actually nuts
I have to be honest. Both 2spooky and quarter are instant takes for me and i never regreted that decision. But you are right about the others.
Altough more than devil deals i think my biggest problem in repentance is how bloated is the treasure room pool.
Specially because before you could at least get some treasure room items from the golden chests but now they are all boss item pool (this Is not necessary bad) but the thing is that treasure room items only appear on the treasure room.
For things like devil/angel deal pool they are plenty of different ways to get them. For secret room pool there is incentive to work to get them. And for boss room pool you just get them constantly.
So the biggest pool is literally the one you get the least and also the one you dont want to try to get.
Im think the quater got worse on repentence because now the shops are so much worse
@@LuigisLegend well, it depends of the shop, sometimes its really pog. What i like about quarter Is that you can buy a pog shop item that you seen in the floor but you didnt have the money to buy it.
@@santiagovidelaleiva thats the obly time i would pick it up because of those 1 item shops and greed fights
angel deals all about the faith that not taking devil deals will have the angels reward you. That's how I like to look at it when I get the minimal amount of rooms (:
Blood Oath is absolutely worth buying with the right setup (ie. A couple of spirit hearts and confidence in your dodging skills). I love it on Maggy, it fixes her speed and basically turns her into Samson.
not picking up deep pockets while being around the shop for so long was like torture
I think after item buffs we’re at a point where devil and angel deals are actually pretty balanced.
Sacrifice rooms can literally teleport you to angels, and also, gambling IS the point of TBoI, if you always got what you wanted it'd be repetitive and boring, Yes, angel deals should get a buff even now but you are forgetting that there are thousands of ways to re-roll, create more items and dance around the bad luck, and also, Angel deals are not free, they cost you the chance of never seeing the other item ever again.
Maybe they replace quarter with dollar, because I do like the idea of “selling your souls for money”
Truthfully it depends who you're playing as; For example someone like ??? or Judas would be better suited for Angel deals regarding their lackluster HP stats while someone like Maggy or The Lost work more efficiently with Devil Deals.
Universally Angel deals are the way to go since they're free, but they require a little more skill and mechanic knowledge (not to mention luck).
New glyph of balance is actually broken btw. The triggers were tweaked to actually be EXTREMELY useful, and you don't notice how good it is, but trust me, it's insane.
all i remember is the wrath of the lamb meta and how devil deals were the only correct option
It would be cool that if you decided to not enter the devil in basement 2 it would give you a guaranteed angel deal, similar to the planetariums
(Assuming you didn’t take any damage)
I agree with almost everything in this video, but why the hate for 2spooky? Fear aura makes you basically immune to enemies that chase you. It's an entire method of taking damage that you no longer have to worry about which can help you get theough a ton of difficult rooms unscathed. It can save you from a ton of damage on the first 9 floors. I always take 2spooky.
I remember when I first started repentance. I stayed away from spoilers on items, had a pretty decent run with the lost and gnawed leaf with some familiars and orbitals, not knowing what 2spooky did picked it up and completely ruined my strategy to have enemies come to me lol, eventually died on mother
You can boost angel room spawn rate after skipping first devil deal the same way you boost devil deals (beggars, shopkeepers, items which boost devil deal chance)
Ik people are focused on your opinions on individual items (there's like 100 comments talking about you saying Glyph of Balance is bad) but the ideas and solutions you present, especially the idea of bombing the Satan Statue, would add alot more agency to getting Devil or Angel Deals. It's a really cool idea especially considering how much thematic sense it makes given items like Redemption, which rewards you for rejecting Devil Deals. Good video, hope Eddy see this.
9:58 This doesn't make sense unless I'm missing something, isn't the only reason to not walk inside a Devil deal to guarantee that your next deal will be an Angel deal? This only works once, so if your run consists of skipping the first devil deal, getting an angel deal, and then getting a devil deal, skipping it won't give you another guaranteed angel deal, and so you may as well check it out?
He's talking about someone who want to get all the angel deals possible, even if you enter in to a devil deal room you still can't get anything if you want a percentage to get an angel deal on the next floor
@@mondes9688 he claimed that you can't even go inside to see what they have.
This is true, there is no reason to not check devil deals after the first.
Love this video! Thanks to the editor
I like watching vids abt people giving their opinions on Rep bc its interesting to see different perspectives
I feel like devil items being easier to get but also weaker/less consistent in power is the point.
"But this is where Repentance changed the meta" - BD1P multiple times throughout his 30/34 char run series
Having to wait so many floors only to get a mediocre item makes me hate angel deals.
I think the game just became super grindy overall
Nice vid, your calculations omit one key thing though. While devil deals are worse, you can potentially grab 3 items. Angel deals are free, but you can only select one. So really a risky player might have 3 devil items to the angel 1, which offsets the power disparity a bit
I find myself winning more runs going angel, you make a lot of good points here and I hope Ed is listening.
(I apologize if tears up was added after the video was made.) you bring up the Ouija board and how they should add more to it, you can shoot through obstacles and you get a tears up, it’s a good item for the 1 heart cost.. I honestly don’t think it needs more- with that said though… you ain’t wrong, why tf is a quarter in the devil deal? 😂
Also- I really enjoyed that floor 2 Krampus idea, please add that 😂
So i don't get it you say angel deals are overpowered (relative to devil deals), but then spell out the major deficit they have (their reliability). I think devil/angel deals are mostly balanced as is in this patch. The angel deal functions as a higher risk alternative to devil deals. Ultimately I find taking angel vs devil deals is more contingent on the character rather than always going angel deal.
"No one would take razor blade"
T.Samson: why wouldn't you take pain?
I need to try this
@@coolnineteenfourthreethreesix spam it real hard while being very mad
you can take eve with multiplayer and change it's active
This video is good, but 2spooky is the single most underrated item in all of isaac. You can not take it if you want but your missing out on an item that maked you basically unable to ne hit by contact damage
I feel that most people dislike 2spooky because it makes enemy movement unpredictable at times on top of Repentance enemies already being somewhat difficult.
if lquater would get a buff it would be better if it was more of a tear replacement but its more of a better reskin of the greed head item, it would be the freed head item but instead shooting out the normal gold coint you shoot out a weaker silver coin to give a slight balance but still being quite OP
I think that its just boring to go one deal for eternity, even if repentance had not buffed angel i would still go for angel sometimes (yes i did start on rep, about the time of the 4.04 update but i knew a lot about the game before even starting)
The idea of Krampus is an interesting one but it doesn't work too well thematically. The reason why the Devil chance will always be there is because the temptation of sin is always present in man. The Devil will ALWAYS be waiting for you to come back, and he'll be ready. It's only in the rejection of sin (Ignoring the deal, Eucharist, etc) that you are rewarded for your faith. But as the bible says, good deeds aren't a free ride into the Lord's favor
says angel deals are always free, then shows gameplay of the one character that has to pay for them
Just to start, 2Spoopy basically makes you immune to contact based enemies. Blood oath lets you used 'taken damage' items in bulk without having to find a devil begger or blood bank which can be really busted if you have alot of hearts, similiar to sanguine bond which can just be busted with any build that makes health regen stronger. Monster manual was massively buffed, with familiars for the whole floor.
2spooky is only good if you’re decently new to the game, the fear makes enemies unpredictable and usually leads to more damage. Blood path is not worth the small damage up it gives you unless you’re maggy and rewards having tons oh red hearts which you spend on devil deals anyways
To be honest, I do agree with all of the points in the video.
And amazing work with the editing, Cosbat! YOu made it easy to follow along with the thoughts and statements, mad props to you.
"Angel deals are quite hard to get."
Bethany, holding her Book of Virtues: "Allow me to introduce myself."
The quarter is actually worth taking sometimes.
If you saw good item in shop or you are playing greed mode. Then that worth it
And it fits thematically, as money is the main thing devil deals with
keeper, miser, and a pound of flesh. even then its just a free 10 cents, but thats literally the only times its worth taking. Unless if your goal is to get rid of red health, but than any devil deal will do
@@scrubecruise8223 quater is also worth if youve got converter as tainted beth or t judas in the shop.
There are a lot of situations where because of the shop its worth a consideration but even then those are rare
@@Killroy007 oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it is also worth taking if you got a one item break that gives you infinite health. even then its not really worth the time spent grabbing it unless you need money, which because of the nerf to shops you will get plenty enough money without taking the quarter out of the devil deal
I used to agree with this a lot, but my thoughts have changed since then and I have some concerns:
1. Bombing for Krampus could just make this the reverse situation of Pre-Rep Isaac where now devil is seen a lot rarer by the playerbase as a whole. Player agency is nice, but I don't think being able to lock out devil most runs is great-it's not like Krampus can't be no-hit.
2. I think people also aren't giving devil a fair chance. People judge too harshly off the first deal as if that's the only devil deal you can get. Another thing to consider is that even if Angel is 'free' (with risks), you can only pick up one item, while devil lets you pick up multiple. Devil also has more multi-item layouts than Angel, you can and do get more items on average.
I genuinely think both of them are balanced when you consider that (and also that Angel takes longer). I don't even understand why people skip for angel anymore.
How do you know Angel would be better if you never checked the devil layout? And why are you scared of getting devil for your second deal when you'd have more health to pay for good items then?
Oh! Also, Quarter's fine. You're selling your soul for riches, that's a classic deal-with-the-devil trope!
You pay one container for two shop items, that's not bad; shop has some good stuff. At worse, you can just buy back with soul hearts.
A small nitpick is that you can also transfer devil room chance to angel room chance by donating 10 coins to donation machines, you also *can* walk inside devil deals after you already got your first angel deal *and* if you're willing to play sacrificial rooms you can get a couple deals you'd miss.
the isaac community needed this earlier. thank you.
I'd also like to point out some 2heart deal items have been nerfed to the point they aren't worth 2 hearts anymore. Maw of the Void off the top of my head.
I respectfully disagree. Even without black heart generation, Maw is still cracked. You just have to rely on it for damage against bosses and self-defense against trash mobs (spiders, leeches, flies). The coverage and DPS still justify it to me, IMO. In my mind, it's Athame that's totally useless now.
@@Drekromancer Taking away the black heart generation is fine, taking away the damage buff is fine, but they did both. It's now a novel item that is only useful if you are going to change your whole play style to adjust to it, and yet it still costs 2 hearts.
great talk man! You really prepared substantively and the video was pleasure to see the arguments. Keep that going!
While I love the breakdown I can't agree with it.
Angel room is loaded with few and very good items but the path to an angel deal is also narrow and full of potential loss of opportunity. The item being "Free" doesn't quite make sense when you consider this loss.
Devil rooms on the other hand have alot less reliability in getting any one item but in a game of RNG that increased power you get from the basement II devil deal is still worthwhile if you are dealt crappy item rooms and food items.
Not to mention just how powerful guppy transformation is.
I also feel that depending on where you are in the game Devil rooms on average get more worthwhile, Even if items like betrayal and board do need a buff or more interesting effects.
Now say it again, but this time in proper english.
I got a few fun ideas of my own.
- Instead of just denying devil deals for the rest of the run, make it so that you can bomb the satan statue sometimes, for a small boss fight against Krampus (or Fallen or even the dark angels from the mega satan fight), and it lowers the hearts cost of all items in that devil room by a heart (so, 1 heart items become free, 2 hearts items become 1 etc). this gives you a chance to get cheaper good items, or, if the items sucks, at least it's free.
(a different reward is also cool, but I like the idea of having a bombable boss in devil rooms as well)
- Devil deals give extra boosts. Similar to how Keeper's sack, or soul locket gives a random stat boost at certain actions, make it so that devil deals always give an extra boost as well, or perhaps a 1-floor book of belial effect or something. A small extra incentive to cancel out the weaker deal.
(this is partially because a lot of these items can also be found elsewhere. buffing the item would then also change the balance of, for example, Ouija board in regular treasure room, or secret rooms with guppy items and stuff. this way the buff is to the devil deal directly)
- Add more good devil deal items :)
-ALSO REMOVE RED CHEST DEALS DARN IT. At least give me an actual item.
Ever since my AB† days I've had the mod which makes angel bosses drop items after you get the key pieces installed. I would never want to remove it as it makes sacrifice rooms way more worthwhile, even when they give you a devil deal at 60% angel chance: I can still get at least one angel item from the angel bosses.
Even with this I agree that in Repentance the deals feel way more frustrating, since you're generally trying to get angel ones, and those can still sometimes give you no item, and there's characters that make it really hard to even get a deal.
Unlike AB† we can at least consistently get the key pieces even without sacrifice rooms, whereas before I had plenty of runs where my dreams of fighting mega satan never came to fruition.
I want to say that there is a mod on the workshop that I use which makes devil statues bombable, like your suggestion at the end. However, the way that it works is that once you bomb the statue, the items that are not picked up in the room disappear, and one of the fallen angels from the mega satan fight appears. After killing said fallen angel, you're rewarded with a random devil deal item that isn't necessarily what was seen before you bombed the statue (taking this item DOES NOT nullify you from getting angel deals. I personally think this mod makes devil deals much more viable and fun, as you can get a devil deal item and still get angel rooms later.
Ahhh so we flame 2spooky who is actually a decent item, but headless baby is ok. Aight imma head out
yes, we flame the item that changed enemy patterns and makes it 12x easier to corner yourself in a room and call the item that just deals extra damage to enemies on the ground a neutral good item
@@bd1pLP Damn son u have no clue.
One small thing, around the 8 minute mark:
You CAN boost your angel deal chance in Caves 1/Caves 2. During that phase of the game, any devil deal chance you get is immediately transferred over to Angel deal chance until you see your first angel deal. This means that things that boost your overall deal chance will still boost your chances during that time. These things include (percentages still subject to "last seen deal" modifier):
-Bombing Shopkeepers (+10%)
-Bombing Coin or Battery Beggars (+35%)
-Picking up Pentagram (+10%, plus another 5% if you can get a second one)
-Holding Book of Belial, or Book of Revelations (12.5% for Belial, 17.5% for Revelations)
-Having Satanic Bible Wisps (10% per Wisp up to 50%)
-Goathead or Eucharist (Guarantees a deal. Goathead still allows Angel deals if it's taken from a non-devil deal source, like Curse rooms or Red chests)
Before we assume you are a professional isaac player, we gotta see some no-damage tainted lost runs.
i’ve gotten dead god almost twice over def one run like that out there
@@bd1pLP naw man the real shit is no-dmg tainted lost. Playing a shit ton doesn't mean playing good.
@@HowToMolly why T.lost ?
Oh I get it cause t lost can't take damage AHAHAHHAH
getting a devil deal after working for both key pieces is honestly a slap in the face
Someone please make that Krampus fight from blowing up the Satan statue idea into a mod. That would be an AWESOME thing.
Also, I feel like a nice buff to Devil rooms would be if entering the one on Basement 2, but NOT taking any deals still made your next deal be forced Angel, so you actually enter the first one and can see if it's worth taking a deal or not in the first place. Or just make Basement 2 be a 50-50 for Devil/Angel.
basement 2 being a 50-50 for devil/angel would completely ruin the balancing behind angel rooms
I think thw Quarter is only good in greed mode, where paying one heart container for 25 pennys is kinda worth
Angel deal or devil deal meta works depending on the character you're playing as.
As (tainted) Lost I always go for devil deals unless the first one is really not worth it. With the buff of sac rooms it can also be worth it to check out devil deals with high hp characters (like Maggy). If you're on 1-2 hearts after the second floor, skipping the devil room is the best option.
Angel deals have one problem: if you aren't lucky and don't get one by floor 3 and your first angel deal on floor 4 isn't a run saving item (like godhead or sacred heart) you'll struggle through the next floors.
I honestly like the balance as it is right now. Devil deals have risks: not being that great but having items such as Brimstone, Abaddon, Mark, Pentagram and potentially boosting your damage a lot.
Angel deals have the % problem I mentioned before. You have to be somewhat lucky to make them work.
Some devil deal items could be buffed but not too much as that would completely ruin the balance again.
uhh you dont need a sacrifice room because if you dont enter the first devil deal deals will always be angel so you are guaranteed more than 1 angel also since you get more devil deals in a run it makes sense for the pool to be not as good as angel but angel doesnt have any insta win items like brim or mums knife but it does have sacred heart and godhead which are still really good some of the best in game so i would say what they've done has balanced the meta but if you made the devil deals anny better it would be the meta by a long shot even if its changed just a bit
Plan C in devil deal literally made my mother run as tainted lost, its super situational but on challenge characters its worth considering to get a checkmark in if you feel like you aren't making it. Oueeja board only if i have flight and a abundance of red/soul hearts, blood oath only on red heart damage centric characters aka with high red health recovery (both maggies) or who deal more damage on hit (both samsons, lilith)
The biggest thing that killed devil deals was the nerfs to health. Not only was every single soul heart generating item massively nerfed by a factor of 1.5 to 2 times, but tinted rocks are more rare and hearts just appear less. This alone makes devil deals too expensive.
Thanks editor!
Thanks Cosbat, you're a damn good editor
demon turret buddy has great dps, glyph of balance is a run saver, and, *statistically* you get more than one angel deal. also the skipping devil deals only works on the first one.
i love that fix you listed near the end. sounds fun and i can fish for brim without feelimg guilty
Ouija board: Ghost themed items and some death related items receive buffs.
Maggie and Bobby: Give Maggy more damage and Bobby more tear rate. When found together they would both share each others advantage and also stand next to each other. Give them bigger tears in general.
Quarter: Increases chance of finding higher value coin pickups.
2Spooky (I think this item is fine but): Feared enemies take 1.2X damage from all sources.
Razor: Just buff the effects immensely.
I perfecly understand what's the point of your video, still I personally think both rooms are actually balanced, devil room can give you red chests or fight against Krampus to give you A Lump Of Coal (or his head, you know), then you have angel room, with very good items BUT it's really hard to make it appear, so I think it's fair.
The thing about devil deals vs angel deals is that yes a devil deal cost hearts but you can take multiple items and in angel deals there are more than one option you can only take 1
Repentance is peak Isaac, overall net positive by a lot. Playing on Xbox no mods, almost 100%, frustrating but fun. Which is constant through all versions
Also the nitpicks about deals, think of deals as getting lucky. Don't rely on them, you can definitely make a run successful with certain moves you make each floor.
When using the sacrifice room in stage 2 it sometimes says 100% Angeldeal and I still only get a deal with the devil. Is that a known bug?
Usually I would just go for devil deals and then hope for angel items in the sac rooms. Best of both worlds, and the prospect of running into hard bosses with sacred heart and brimstone but half a soul heart makes the game more fun and stressful.