The fact that jungle isn't even addressed in League's tutorials to this day speaks volumes as to Riot's confidence in explaining, teaching, and balancing it.
I wonder why they didn't include it at all when the tutorial was updated. I get that there are a lot of materials out there online teaching you how to jungle. But they don't even have the basics taught in game.
It because jungling was created by the player base not riot everything riot does to the jungle is going to piss people off because it was never intented to be a thing they made it a thing due to how.much people were doing it
Thing is the skill gap between junglers is too influencial. In a lane if an opponent is way more skilled than you one can farm near tower and wait for mistakes and/or an ally's help. In the jungle there's no way to do that. There is no tower, the enemy jungler will come, kill you and steal all your camps.
So you're saying skill shouldn't be a factor in the game? The only reason enemy jungler will come, kill and steal all camps is due to differences in skill where your jungler doesn't understand counter jungling and enemy jungle pathing
I'm saying there should be a limit. If the enemy jungler is better than you you should lose. In the current state you are out of the game. There is a difference between losing and being unable to play.
@@worsethanyou93 ... that makes 0 sense tho. because you are only unable to play because you are losing... those go hand in hand so there really isnt a difference. What you should be saying is you shouldnt just straight lose because the enemy jungler by himself is better then you. The deciding factor should be team play not 1 player beating you. If your team as a whole is better then the enemy teams then you should win. Even if your techinically worse then the enemy jungler. 1 player by themselves should not be the deciding factor of if a game is won or lost and atm thats how it is with jungle. Jungle role has too much influence and impact over the game and its a huge problem. The role already allows you to play PVE and be equal with people that are PVPing from doing so. So that itself should be attributed with a cost. The role should be weaker. You should be lower level then other players that are forced to constantly PVP and you should be punished for failed ganks and not be allowed to afk in a lane and camp it. Also smite should straight up be removed from the game. Dragon and baron should not be decided by junglers when they can already decide the fate of lanes. The two core objectives should be decided by the entire team. If smite was removed then everyone would have to work together to last hit the Dragon/baron and would encourage even more teamplay while also taking presure of the jungler.
The issue with jungle is that its too snowbally. You make one mistake and now your behind 3 levels from the laners, you can't contest any objectives by yourself because the level and gold difference, then the enemy or your own teammates steal your camps and now you're useless for the entire game and you cant even farm.
I think this is the biggest problem with the jungle that the video failed to fully address. In lane you can win, lose or get even. Junglers, on the other hand, either win or lose and there's no in between. Also junglers are the only role whose winning bleeds to all the other lanes. Even if your Garen top feed the Sett to be 7/0 the enemy still only has one raidboss and if they don't utilise it, they lose. But if the jungler is winning, usually all the lanes are winning too as the jungler keeps the pressure up and ganks all the time. Then you have one extra fed jungler and 4 fed laners to go against. I'm no genius but 5 fed and winning players are more than 1. And then there's what you said. You literally die ONCE in the jungle and you're useless for the rest of the game; or at least getting back to the game is extremely hard and near impossible.
@@mr.paperbag771 or have the luck of me and have usually a jungle that dies to tryndamere 2x and has as answer to your pls stop inting an im gonna feed yi hard now. or people that have an average wr of 20% with champs that they're picking i have more matches with an s than matches where i get carried. im within top 200 euw b1 with my champ but am still b
That is not the issue at all... the biggest issue is that a jungler can be anything ranging from tank to adc while every other role only has 2-3 roles in them. So you can’t really account for all of them. Pick a role and have that be in the jungle then push the rest out because that would make it a lot easier for it to be balanced. At present you have not only all 7 roles as viable junglers but you also have two distinct types of junglers the power farming and tanking jungler.... picking a role for the jungle will at the very least make it a little easier to balance the power farm to gank imbalance
While one part of me thinks having the role be more accessible is a good thing, another thinks that it's making the situation worse. Typical jungle champions have a theme or playstyle that makes sense for them being in the jungle (Nidalee, Ivern, Lee Sin, Kindred). I think it's a bad idea to open the jungle to champs like Darius and Morgana, since their themes and playstyles fit traditional lane roles. The only reason they're viable now is because they have insane damage modifiers against jungle monsters. I'm not against the idea of pushing more champions into the jungle, but I feel that they are considering the wrong things when they make their approach (adding insane modifiers to damage toward jungle monsters is just lazy). One champion I would love to see viable in jungle is Kled, since his kit and playstyle compliments the mobility and gank potential that jungle champions are known for.
There are three main objectives to the jungle role, farming, ganking, and getting objectives. It's frustrating trying to climb as a laner because it always feels like the enemy jungle is doing all three while you're left with scraps. You're ganked repeatedly and fall behind in xp and gold and lose lane pressure but "Hey at least my jungle is ganking other lanes to compensate." Except he isn't. "Well at least he's getting ahead of the enemy jungler in cs so he can carry." except he's behind in gold and underleveled. "Well at least he's prioritizing objectives like scuttle, herald, and drag?" Except he hasn't even tried to take any of them Because he's behind in level and so are his teammates so we can't help. And i can't imagine it feels good for the jungler, I've played my fair share of fill and got jungle and it's hard to juggle all of the different goals. Out of all roles Jungle is the one where skill difference is most apparent. It feels amazing to have a great jungler who solos ever objectives, beats the enemy jungler in every duel, and is always there for the perfect gank but when you lose because your jungler wasn't up to par it feels especially disheartening more so than any other role. Having the worse jungle out of all roles is the most likely to lose you the game AND make you feel the worst while it happens. Especially in a solo queue environment where communicating which such a teamwork reliant role it feels terrible when your enemy jungler makes you feel like a solo queue team against a flex queue team. And don't get me started on having the misfortune to lane against the jungler's duo partner. I really don't know what they can do about this other than reduce the number of different things junglers can do but that would negatively impact so many players i don't think it's feasible. I can only think that somehow they could give the laners just a little taste of jungler diversity to make it feel more fair.
Riot’s solution to everything this season seems to be: “if everything is broken, nothing is”. Then they nerf Amumu and Chemtank into the ground while ignoring that movement speed is broken.
yeah if rito doesnt want a low playrate hero in meta they just kill it. look at Yorick lmao. and Chemtank was to give the ohter 2 items a reason to exist
@@tonylolu no it didn’t. Riot only nerfed movement speed relatively recently but for the first 5 months of this season let movespeed and lifesteal become huge problems that needed to be addressed continuously.
I'd say it's a misconception that junglers don't interact early-game. Even if you end up not ganking for a long time, you're interacting far more than most laners because you have to look at what's going on on all lanes, understand every other player's attitude to know what they're going to do next, and plan your pathing accordingly. In the end though, the role will never be balanced in the eyes of laners because as a laner you can climb to at least plat with the minimap disabled, macro is not part of the skill floor of lanes whereas it is the biggest part of the jungle's skillfloor. This is why the jungle role is so excruciating in low elo, because while you have to put in effort and thoughts every single minute of the game, laners can just go full aggressive all the time and rely only on their micro, and when they fail at their micro or get ganked because they overextend, they just claim "jgl diff" and go on with their lives never wanting to improve (or should I say start having) macro. Laners also only see the impact jungle has on lanes because it's obvious and in their faces, but don't see the impact they themselves have on junglers by having prio, helping at scuttle, creating gank opportunities... They never see it as a failure on their part when their jungler is in a bad spot, they only see it as a failure of the jungler and will not hesitate to blame him. Until high elo, junglers basically play a different game that you can't autopilot on, that has to be mastered to be efficient, and that gets constantly flamed no matter how skilled the player is. It's no wonder the role is so deserted anytime junglers can't get enough of a lead regularly to 1 vs 9.
I'm sorry to say that but I just can say that I agree, I'm low Elo returning jungler from playing mid for a while and as a low Elo mid all I need to do in order to achive a victory was knowing when to E to a dagger (I was a Kat OTP XD) and start geting Kills, and then apply my macro knowledge. In the jungle the result was bad cuz my macro is not that good, in the other hand since I learned how to play Kat in a decent level for the Elo, the result was never losing XD. And that's the reason I returned to the jungle cuz characters are not as fin to play as Kat (in my opinion) but the role is much more demanding and the feeling of achivement is highly bigger when I'm able to win. (Sorry if there is any mistake, I'm not from an English speaking country and my phone just likes to change words XD)
One thing maining jungle has taught me is that as a laner, it should be my responsiblity to also actively check the minimap and help my jungler secure major objectives and scuttle, cause that shit helps and in most of my games people just have tunnel vision on their own lanes and do nothing to take advantage of any oppporunities i.e. bot lane over-extending to harass the other laner when the other jungler is elsewhere and there is a clear opening to take dragon.
The problem is, they made jungle objectives too important, so team is always reliant on jg to be good. They should make drakes and baron even more late game objectives, and the priority should be external towers. This way you force more activity on ganking and teamwork, rather than: "oh fuck, someone got caught and now we can't contest shit". This also makes laning phase more engaging, but also probably longer, so they should reduce spawn times of drakes later in the game. Like, a good, solid game, should go for 30 min; a fast one, at least 20 and a long one 40-45 min. The way gameplay is designed now is either u done by 7 min in, or you stuck for almost an hour in a game
Any chance you’d consider covering Karma? Someone mentioned her in a previous video and mentioned some interesting things such as she was the first champ to get a real rework. Since then shes gotten a mini rework and has been on a rollercoaster of buffs and nerfs with her community of mains being very divided on which of the three Karma’s they think is best. On top of all that now she rarely sees competitive play because of all the mess. I think this could make for a really interesting video! Especially since I didn’t know any of these facts before hand and I’m really intrigued to learn some more. (If I took your comment I’m sorry, whatever your name is! I just wanted to try and give it more coverage.)
After all the changes over the years the "comebacks" are more frequent than ever, now even the jungle has that capacity, but instead of being fun I feel like it makes the game more stressful, creating situations when the winning team has to play perfectly and end because every mistake hurts a lot and can cost the game
I can relate to this comment, and specially since the majority of the people playing league is in low elo the players don't have the capacity to know every single time how to end a match before the enemy comeback, an example of this is one of my past solo q, we won a crucial teamfight, i died so the rest of the team could ended, the jungler was clever enough to go for the nexus, but the rest of the team went baron instead of helping, that mistake made the enemy team have a comeback so strong that we lost no matter how many times we splitpushed or even went for open nexus
You just described the scaling meta we're playing in. Closing out games early requires a coordination that's not realistic for a soloq environment, making early game champions too risky for the trouble and the "play safe and farm" just as if not more rewarding of a style despite its much lower risk.
@Zakareya Alatoli Yes but we're talking about the degree to which this effect should take place. The argument is that in the current gamestate comebacks are waaay too easy to pull off, not that they shouldn't exist. Comebacks should still happen in league, but the current gamestate isn't forgiving enough to teams that have played the early game better
5:45 Just wanna go on a bit of a rant, some champions have had their weaknesses either lessened or worsened with the new items, such as Darius, you should be able to kite, CC and keep him outside his pull range, but now there’s a bunch of items that can give bruisers and juggernauts move speed, along with other things, so now, he’s just weaker to CC and such than he is to kiting
There are champions now that are made to jungle tho... kindred was made to be in the jungle she has quite low attack range and so will be poked out of bot lane take her top and most of the bruisers can get on top of her and destroy her face... graves is op as a top lane but would be destroyed as a bot laner...Khazix was once one of the most op midlaners in the game it was only once they put him in the jungle that they could balance him... hecarim to this day has balance issues outside of the jungle... it’s a big issue for a lot of champions... Also how would the meta shape up at that point two bruisers in the top lane at about the same level as the arc?? Adc would be on overpowered at that point.... AGAIN
@@bryanhickernell7189 Kindred would have still been unique and probably easier to balance if they just never included her jungle marks. Either take out her mark-stacking or leave it on champions only. Then she could be allowed to have a real shot at being balanced, and not permanently under/over powered.
I don't have an issue with junglers being too strong as much as I do with tanks! It's pretty great when the full tank, no damage build can out-damage everyone and never die! :) League of tanks baby!
oh yeah dude it's SOOOOOOO HAAAAARD I picked it up in a couple of hours, but I'm sure it's such a high skill thing people like you are the reason why jungle needs to be buffed despite being broken I'm a jungler btw
@@ΝικόλαοςΘεοδωρίδης-γ6λ fiddles ideal clear is blue+wolves > blue+gromp > Red+raptors > red+ krugs > krugs. It sucks to have to constantly have 2 campsvat the edge of their distance at any moment without resetting
@Abserial well support can actually be defined by alot of things it's a much more versatile role than vars let on. Jungle in a way should be played as a support to get laners ahead. There are only very few jungles that really need to be fed cause they are carries everything else is basically made to help the laners get ahead and get objectives.
As someone pointed out, the jungle (and by extension, the game) is hard to balance not only because the amount of stuff in it, but also because Riot keeps trying to make it "accessible". Riot is trying, has always been, to guide the game somehow instead of letting players do it by themselves. And hey, it's not like Riot can't push a little here and there to see a specific champion being used in some ways, but everytime someone discovers new ways to play champions, Riot destroys it. And that's how the jungle became so weird. They should've let the jungle be a place were you need to have enough native tools to survive there (like Zac and Warwick) or be able to purchase it. But that's it. Instead of trying to push a specific type of gameplan or gameplay for the jungle, Riot should let the players decide what works and not, and only try to nerf/buff it if it's too overbaring. Games can, and should, be accessible, but sacrificing the learning curves or hard paths to success because "players won't want to play this role otherwise" is stupid. There will ALWAYS be someone that wants to play the harder role, either because they enjoy it, or because they like a champion that can do it. Riot FORCING the need for a jungler to exist (by enforcing the 1-1-1-2 meta we had since forever) is the reason we "need" champions designed just for the jungle, instead of making champions that are interesting and let players figure out where to put them later on. A lot of characters got solidified into roles in this way, they were designed for a primary purpose, but players found it's better to use them differently. That adds depth to the game. Adds possibility for the players to come up with weird and cool ways to solve problems. And Riot is constantly taking away this side of the game, since ever, because casual players or lazy players can't be bothered to put the effort into learning stuff.
Imo it's fine if Rito wants to make the call to guide the game into being played a certain way... *if they are consistent with it.* I constantly see Riot overlooking solo-lane champions going into support, for example, but if a champion designed for support leaves to go elsewhere, then Riot homes in on it like an ICBM because 'they're not meant to do that'. It also doesn't help that Riot themselves doesn't have any resources for learning the role as they want it to be. Yeah, sure, the community's got plenty, but *Riot* has no in-client solution for players wanting to check out jungle for the first time, and that's never a good thing. You shouldn't want your players to dive in headfirst to a complex role like jungle when the likely outcome is going to be ruining the game for your four other teammates.
@@ArceusShaymin also, there's the fact that summoner spells are still unlocked by leveling (for some reason), which leads to most low level players to gravitate to the roles that are possible to play without smite, which is litterally the last one to unlock, that mixed with the lack of a tutorial, or at the very least, an official list of good champions to learn the role, makes it so that it's basically the least popular role in the game for lower levels
The music in this video sounds like you are about to face the final villain in a turn based RPG and he is giving you his speech right before the battle.
This is why I loved seasons 5-6 with their power farm meta. Almost all the problems with the jungle go away when ganking isn't prevalent. Instead of balancing around a whole bunch of different factors, they'll only need to balance: 1. Late game carry potential. 2. Average clear speeds. This makes it so that the only difference between junglers is how they want to carry, ad carry, assassin carry, control mage carry, tank carry, etc. Where would ganking junglers go? They would become invade junglers, while yes they can clear fast they have the option to dick over the enemy jungler. Powerfarm junglers are then the simple ones, but given depth as they have to plan their path to avoid being "ganked" themselves. With catch-up exp and the bounty system, invading junglers will have enough chances to match/shut-down the opponent. The "toxic" part of that meta was that champion being able to just 1v5 doing pve. However, all it takes is a single winning lane, and the skill to transfer that lead to neutralize the enemy jungler. This makes drafting important, which lanes play for neutral/getting ahead, and it also makes a laner's individual skill/ability to outplay directly impact the direction of the game. Idk, just by initial thoughts.
I like jarvan ultimate and his flag mechanic, but aside from this, i think his pretty boring, he's a tank but has doesn't have the skills of a tank. His only tank skill is W, but that shield is small. Also he scales with BONUS AD, which is a pretty bad status.
Jarvan used to be known as a well-rounded, jack of all trades, master of none type of champion. The Orianna of the jungle one may say. Always a solid pick, rarely overtuned. He is a hybrid of a tank jungler and early game aggressor. Both have strong ganks, as does Jarvan. Early game aggressors have strong dueling. Jarvan may not match that, but his is still stronger than that of a tank. Tanks have strong teamfight utility. Jarvan may not match that, but his is still stronger than that of an early aggressor. The problem with Jarvan is that his "tank half" drags him down. Tanks are by far the weakest class in the game and while Jarvan share some of the strenghts of an Elise or a Rek'sai, he don't have all of them, and he still has the weaknesses of a tank. Tanks will get bullied out by early aggressors. Tanks will get outscaled by power farmers. The same holds true for Jarvan. His versatility was once valuable. But the thing he can flex into today is what drags him down.
@@shacolin6546 tanks the worst class? No way, Nautilus, Leona, malphite, Cho gath. The problem is that jarvan isn't a good tank he only has a small shield and that's It.
I would personally jungle to move away fro power farming and to a sort of Gank-Support/Finisher. I am biased on this front, I main Fiddle, Vi and Warwick in that order. I think this would eliminate the PvE problem and the Identity problem.
I think jungle, at its core as a role, is unbalanced. You give 1 person on your team complete control over the tempo of the game. The jungler dictates how fast or slow the game is played and they dictate it for all of the game, I think that’s what makes the role unbalanced and I don’t think there’s a good solution. Personally, I think the smite changes didn’t really matter, building a jungle item kept a lot of junglers in check so they wouldn’t spike as hard. For example, kha’zix can base for a serrated dirk on his first base with 1100 but without the smite changes, he would build a caulfields which gives not as much AD which meant that junglers would spike AT the completed jungle item but not before it as they do from the components in this season.
Well I think at it's base like another commenter said it's a permanent roaming support. I think riot, like the support role champs, really needs to define jungle champs like that. Where their role and what they are meant to do is clearly defined so that their only job to get lanes ahead and secure objectives where they went wrong was putting SO many champs that do massive damange as jungles instead of more champs like ivern.
Jungle is the extra "slot" that a team composition needs/takes. For example, if toplane takes a ranged mage or squishy fighter with little to no CC, the jungle can take up that role and be a tank jungle or higher CC jungler (example: if someone takes Teemo top, jungle can take Cho'Gath). Jungle can cover the "holes" in a team comp, thus making a teamfight better, OR can double up on a role. Like if you have a Juggernought top AND jungle making your team and frontline all that more beefy, and difficult to chew through. That is why Jungle touches so many roles, because it is, in effect, the "Wild Card" for the team.
As someone who likes jungle as a secondary. I actually like the seesaw effect since it lets me change champions a lot and also keeps me on my toes which is a skilled trait in general to be flexible. That’s a reason why I’ve always liked jungle
League in general is a balance nightmare. Too much snowball. It's designed to both give each individual player the ability to solo-carry and be a team game-which is an awful combination IMO.
snowballing makes games faster so it's actually a good thing. a system where the losing team is continuously being over-buffed to compensate for the lack of gold/objectives simply drags the game on forever....
@@jackcough8155 yeah but the game is unenjoyable for the losing team, since there chances of winning is low. The games are quicker but I don't see problems of a longer game.
@@ДюсековИльяс true but according to most polls people want games 20-30 mins tops... i mean i personally enjoy longer games as well but i don't see the problem in faster paced 25 minute games either
@@jackcough8155 snowbally game makes it so that every lane has 5 viable champions at best and they are lane bullies. You can’t play karthus, twisted fate, Aurelion sol etc.
To be fair, you can play anything in jungle if you're good enough. Xayah and Sett are actually good junglers, and Rakan is k-meta jungler (haven't tried him tho, I don't own him).
Another example of Riot's attempt to "reduce snowball" actually make snowball EXTREMELY harder. Picture this: You get invaded at level 1, lose your camps and you are now behind. Catch-up EXP will help but I digress, if the enemy team keeps putting pressure and clearing your jungle camps more, you get farther and farther away from completing your smite quest, thus resulting in you being a complete dead weight, with a smite dealing only half damage. If this isn't going to icentivize pro-play to put AS MUCH pressure in the jungle as possible, to snowball the hardest, I don't know what will.
I think the only way to balance jungle would be to migrate out alot of champs that do massive damange in the jungle role in place of more champs like ivern in the jungle. The jungle should mostly be support and what they are designed to do is get laners ahead and secure objectives. Riot went wrong with having so many brusiers and assassin's really defining the role.
Or, alternatively, how about we just migrate entire classes of champions (some of which designed for the role) out of your favorite role? Here's another option: just alter lanes so that they have more macro opportunities. That way the game is actually focused on teamplay instead of just being 3 instances of a 1v1/2v2 game. Maybe teleport could be removed as a summoner spell and replaced with purchasable tp scrolls like they have in dota.
Maybe I'm crazy, but the randomness of jungle is what makes the role fun for me. If there was a specific identity jungle needed to be, then only the champions that fulfill that identity problem would be viable. Having it be an open ground for every type of champion is why jungle is so fun and threatening, because it will have a different impact each game. Is it a good game design, probably not, but it sure does make the role fun and gives the game the depth it needs to not be the same every match.
I unironically used to say that jungle should be removed and be a 4v4 game, and this video is proof of why that suggestion might actually be viable. Amazing quality as always vars, keep it up :)
I think something riot could do is to make the first scuttle spawn just give vision, and less gold and exp in general. The neutral camps just make the jungle too snowbally, if their top and mid have priority, I'm probably not getting that scuttle and fall behind.
I main kindred and i can say hecarim and udyr being op hurts me more than it hurts you. Udyr is on a pain late but when hecarim takes you out of ult with their e and chases you til you cry. Kindred's mobility and range just become useless. She's getting buffed and Heccy boi is getting the nerf hammer so i might actually be able to play her in season 11
i’ll tell ya, I played Kindred in one game after her buff and it was the most fun jungle game I had in a while. Given in that game our team snowballed hard and kept them out of the game, but it was honestly a hilariously fun kindred game. Note: this is coming from someone who mostly plays Lillia and Rammus bc I suck at jungling, but want to learn it
And either delete Udyr or nerf his Phoenix stance. Oh and make comeback exp not be a thing for Shaco specifically so he can’t cheese the Fuck out of your laners, not touch his camps yet still only be 1/2 a level behind you.
While I'm very much a noob in LoL, it seems to me that the game would be better off with the Jungler role being shifted into a "roamer" role, where the job is to assist in other lanes. Kind of like how Support works, where the job is not to dominate a lane, but to make an impact and find success in synergizing with other roles (albeit by helping in different lanes as needed, rather than being attached to the Carry in the bottom lane when not placing wards). Make the rewards of jungling--specifically, the gold amounts and possibly the strength of red and blue buffs)--too low to find success power farming; make Jungling about helping other lanes; make the Jungler item kind of like the Support items; you get gold that would otherwise be unobtainable by helping your teammates (you get gold by being near an ally when minions die, you get extra gold from assists/kills when near other champions, but with caps/limits/charges, and it's all tied into an item that needs to be upgraded with gold--which upgrades your smite--that gives you much more gold for killing jungle creatures than you would otherwise get [while nerfing the amount of gold champions without that item would get for killing the creatures]).
That's how jungle worked in the past and it was awful, nobody wants to play a second support as an assassin, skirmisher, mage. The role isn't popular if you copy the playstyle of the second less popular role, there isn't much change, even less people will play
I agree with Vars-I don’t think Riot’s goal of expanding the jungle champion pool is a good idea. I mean we already have the overtuned Morg jungle, and we all saw Rossboomsocks literally solo dragon as jungle Darius at level 1 (yes, he did wait 5 mins without doing anything lmao). The other changes, like having smite be a flat number, isn’t nearly as bad an idea. Jungle gap does feel bad, especially if the jungler has no way to compensate for it (example being nunu jg having a huge smite regardless of level). Catch up exp is the one thing I’ll be super happy to have back. We won’t have to have a lvl 14 mid and top with a lvl 12 jungle and lvl 10 botlane anymore, hooray! I hate that feeling honestly. You don’t even have your lvl 2 ult yet and the midlaner is already most of the way to lvl 3 ult. It’s extremely frustrating to constantly be at a level disadvantage, and be forced to 2v1 and even then, risk losing bc you’re under leveled.
Riot has to rework a lot of stuff. While lots of people are agreeing, that there is to much damage in the game, if riot would just nerf it, we would have to much shielding or healing in the game. Nerf that, and we got no answers to newer champions, specifically developed for this kind of game. Take kai'sa for example: Imagine a hypercarry adc with a semi global instant dash ult that gives here a shield around 800 hp was released in Season 6. It would have instantly become the strongest champion in the game, just by mere matter of stats. Also sometimes riot seems to fix problems by just painting over it with new features: Immobile carries are to easily shut down -> give them a dash on an item -> Assassins and bruiser suddenly cant catch up any more (especially with already mobile carries) -> also give them a dash. It just seems like the games starts to just swell up with more and more features, not only on new champs, but also old ones.
Jungling is pve, it has biggest amount of viable picks, you can turn losing matchups into snowballing lanes, but jungle is the most complicated role in game. You have to monitor a tone of information, know your pathing, know enemies jungle timers, make a lot of decisions with farm / gank / win condition lanes and so on. Jungle can not really be fixed. It is the role that shapes and breaks the meta. So it has to be always offsetting the whole game in some way. And, that's what riot is serving junglers - they are constantly changing jungle, so we have to adapt, though the changes rarely really change the game in global perspective. Also... Remove chemtank, it just throws away any skill needed to gank advanced lanes 🙄
I think that one concept was greatly overlooked in this video: pressure. Jungler applies great pressure to litetally everyone on the Rift. Until you know for a fact where the jungler is, you are always at risk of getting gank (or you should be). While in low elo this isn't really taken into account much, in higher elo (maybe Gold and above?), keeping track of the jungler is a headache. Certain junglers (Nocturne, Hecarim) demonstrate this concept really well with their ability to gank a lane very well (Nocturne's R and Hecarim's legs). Laners have to either deep ward (which might not be possible at times) or play extremely safe (which might lose the game) to be able to protect themselves from ganks of those junglers because warding the river or the bush near top might not be enough. By the time you spot some of these junglers, your fate is sealed. Tldr: Jungler is a role about pressure and map control, noy knowing where the jungler is prevents a lot of potential play in-game and forces people to play safer than they could have.
I had my fair share of laning experience before starting to jungle (Which became my main and favorite role), and I understand why people believe jungle is an unfair role, the influence that one can have in the game is huge when ahead, and zero when behind. But even then, everytime I go back to playing lane roles such as top, I have a much better understanding of when I can or cannot do something, resulting in me having a fairly safe laning phase and almost never dying to ganks. In my opinion, a big issue is that laners don't take in consideration learning the basics of jungle, when good junglers have to take in consideration conditions of laning such as wave management, cooldowns, item advantage from recall timings, etc. This isn't me ranting bout laners, but more on the huge difference that it makes to know jungle clears, respawn timers, jungler's favorite angles to gank, and many other things that make you say "Jg Gap". Knowing when to make use of prio as a laner, or warding properly against champions such as Kayn, Fiddlesticks, Evelynn, Rek'sai or Nidalee can completely ruin the enemy jungler's tempo and raise your winning chances by a lot.
I think jungling should have more cost and reword. By increasing camp damage, reducing camp hp, and increasing camps stat scaling (also including gold and xp). This would help slow clearing, and power clearing junglers, and force early game junglers to focus more on ganking without becoming irrelevant mid game. What do you think about this?
“Back in the day only a few champions could go to jungle... such as zac, sejuani, olaf etc” Remembering the days when to jungle you had to play shaco, fiddle or warwick (that’s it, not really sure about warwick though)and it was a really difficult thing to do
I think the biggest problem is that as many people say "mid can play as second jungle". And that shows. Main goal of the jungle is just help other lanes win. But choise HOW you gonna do it is so vast that basicly ANYONE can play it. Ether: You can just clear jungle and wait for enemy jungler to countergang him. You can just gang every lane and make enemy fall behind You can just power farm and outscale everyone to the point no one can deal with you. You can control main objectives that will give edge to laners. You can just 1v1 enemy jungler and render him useless or not 1v1 him and just steal his camps. By that you can be ether just a brute that will destroy everyone with strength or master mind that will just let enemies fall to your trap. Not to menition that many forget that it's strategy game and balancing where gold go is bread and butter of this game. Also compare to any lane jungle operate on fix timers when money and where money will spawn... This makes this role basicly impossible to control.
@@v01dabby76 and how are you supposed to pushen Towers? How will you fit enough Camps into the map to make it Balanced? How will supports get their Gold? What would hold back the players to create a funnel role, where you play kogmaw and lulu jungle farming Everything and healing 3 Tanks in solo Lanes just farming a camp here and there. That wouldnt be league of legends anymore. Idk call it league of warcraft or something
9:25 "[currently meta champion class] is extra strong in the jungle because in the jungle you can safely farm for your item and level powerspike if you're good at reading your enemy's movements." key part of this sentence: "if your'e good at reading your enemy's movements." Likewise, a laner can safely farm for their item and level powerspikes if they're good at trading and managing the wave. If you consider knowing how to properly trade and wave manage to be a laner's "lane phase skill", then knowing when to safely gank, invade, and take objectives is a jungler's "lane phase skill". Additionally, this statement stipulates (the whole video kinda does this as well) that a jungler can basically vibe during lane phase and still come out on the other side of it having had an equal impact on their team's chances of winning the game. But this is NOT the case. Objectives are very important and I'm surprised aren't talked about more in the video since they can dramatically turn the tide of a game. Even if two junglers are relatively even in kda/level/cs and equally ganked their laners, the one who took more dragons and heralds had the higher impact on their team's chances of winning the game coming out of lane phase. The skill of preparing and taking objectives, especially during lane phase, should be taken into account when assessing the difficulty and balance of the jungle role. How good someone is at this certainly plays into the role's impact.
Jungle also changes when labers does example of passive meta late game meta or early meta so you have to change routes and playstyles Also Because the roster is so diverse its only normal that you cant balance high portion of it
i think another important factor is the average skill level has risen considerably from the time that jg was gated by sustain. the role needs to adapt to this. part of riot's interest in lowering the floor for jungling is about matchmaking. as a jungler you never get autofilled and the queue times are lower. distributing the player base equally between roles is in their interest, as is lowering the barrier to entry. it increases the longevity of the game, as i would assume the amount of new players isn't rising.
Jungle just has too much impact. You feel jungle pressure and jungle difference every game and it’s frustrating for both the Laners and junglers since the jungler is gonna get flamed for messing up (and often even when he did nothing wrong) and the Laners get frustrated and punished for having a bad jungler. It should just be a 2nd support role where they still have impact but I think no jungler should ever be able to 1v1 an even solo Laner that’s just dumb
An idea that came to mind but I honestly haven't put much thought into, what if they buffed jg monsters with every clear so that junglers would have to either spend more time in the jungle or give up farm to help their laners with a gank? They kinda already do this but if the problem is they can do everything really well, it seems the solution would be to try and force them to focus more on a couple.
Make an item so that powerfarm and gang heavy is seperated reward players for cpunter jungling and punish powerfarmers for powerfarming by making counter jungle easier and reward powerfarmers if they can survive the pressure of the enemy this way junglers now have an opponent but it isnt a direct 1v1
My main problems with Jungle: -Reworked very often. Especially when i play off meta junglers, i have to relearn the game every 6 months -Priority, especially mid. You can't get Map Control if enemy has priority all the time, think of playing with a Kassadin and trying to get Prio for Dragon. -Lack of understanding. We all heard our laners say "Just Gank", "enemy mid 5 times, my jungler 0 times" or them spam pinging if we tax (even if the laner got the kill). Most of the times, my laner doesn't understand the reasons for those plays (like pushing to roam for drake, or a matchup that could screw you in a counter gank, etc.)
So there was this Moba It had a simple rule Lane offers more gold the jungle offers more XP In the game the junglers would in most cases be ahead in levels and in order to actually advance on items getting kills and assist was essencial in your jungle rotation As you where ahead in levels yes this did mean that junglers where really dangerous to face making them really powerful in the early game it also meant that if the enemy avoided being killed by the jungler early on he would lag behind in items
I feel like the biggest problem with the Jungle is that there is simply too many objectives that rely on that role. A big portion of the flow of the game relies solely on the jungler, even if you have a roaming Sup, mid and top, the guy carrying the smite is the one who will dictate when to get scuttle, herald, baron and dragon. And those four, specially those last three, have indirect impacts on the whole, regardless if you saw the jungler or not this match. Having a single player to be the dedicated "smite" and responsible for securing the most important objectives (to some extent, even more so than towers and inhibitors), is the problem itself. It's impossible to balance a role like that because either everything about the game is on their lap, or they are so nerfed they can barely do anything. To make an example, imagine if in CS:GO the moment you started a match a single player would be designated to be the bomb carrier on TR and they were also obligated be the entry fragger (and on the other side, only one guy with the kit). Everything about the match would rely on that sole player: if they get inside the bomb site, they win the round, if not, your team loses, simple as that. Sure, once in a blue moon the awper will get 3 dudes from the other team or someone will manage to pick up the c4, but 99% everything would depend on that player. It's kind of weird, but I think if Riot removed Smite from the game, the jungle would be a lot easier to balance. Securing objectives would depend a lot more on team rotation and coordination, and junglers would rely a lot more on either ganking early, power farming or counter jungling in order to win.
When you download wild rift, the tutorial there says jungle is usually for assassins who can lurk around I believe. With that being said, i don't like the smite changes they're proposing. Why should baron be 50/50 toss up if I'm up 5 levels on their jg? They should make it that when you hit lvl 18 smite damage doubles again to 1800 or something
I really didn't care about Jungle since I don't know when. But it's when they buffed Poppys stats against jungle camps. The clear is better and mana management is so good. The clear speed is fairly nice too. Overall my main Poppy got all the more suitable as a Jungle pick since that patch.
I think that the vision plants are a good step to balance the jungle. Are you powerfarming alone? Opponents can gain vision on you and kill you since you're isolated. Are you ganking a lot? Opponents can see you using vision plant and know if there's a danger of an imminent gank. Are you invading or being invaded? Control of plants can make or break your survival. Plants provide skill-dependent tools to interact with the junglers, in contrast to the past where you could only discover what they were doing if your support or mid were invading the enemy camps. Also, I think that smoothing clears for jungle is a good thing, because the game in essence is about interacting with other players. The main reason why I think these changes are occurring, is because sometimes your jungler is autofilled. While getting autofilled to lane, you can farm defensively under turret and get away with not losing the game for your team, but in the jungle you don't have this option. This means that you're constantly at risk and have to interact with your lanes from a worse position than the enemy jungler. If in addition to that, you had a chance of actually getting executed by jungle monsters, you would essentially be getting punished for being autofilled to jungle. And if you don't believe me, think about the number of times that you remember bad players getting executed by jungle monsters in past seasons (including me), and try telling them that it's still a fair game for them.
Honestly, I think the healthiest, at least from a laner's perspective, is to make camps be worth a lot of gold and XP, but take an extremely long time to clear. That way, you are forced to either sacrifice your late game in order to gank or sacrifice your early in order to farm up. This way, you don't overly hurt either power farmers or power gankers, but give both a high cost in exchange for their strengths
imo.. if you wanna learn map-related stuffs and quick real-time decisions, play jungle. I told that to all new Wild Rift players that comes by my streams. You'll be able to get a grasp on what usually happens on the lanes by carefully watching the map, make predictions on which lane is going down by knowing the comps, and learn overall map movements not only for you, but everyone else too.
I think there's a holdover problem of the very design of jungle that makes it fairly hard to balance, since jungle was originally made for the purpose of extra exp. for the laners when roaming. It was created with everyone in mind because everyone was originally supposed to benefit from it by balancing out their leveling curve. We have to remember that jungle only became a role because players figured that there was roughly enough exp to be gained in the jungle so that two lanes could go singleton without the jungle farming player being vastly underleveled.
I don't know much about balance of jungle and how it could be improved but my god! It is so hard to to know how to do jungle camps when you don't play jungle regularly and I feel like there is a big change to the jungle every few months that compleatly changes the way you do camps. I just wish jungle camps were more like herald and scuttle, had clearer weaknesses and were easier to kill overall. It shouldn't be a problem to kill a jungle camp! Tft has got that right.
My only big complain with the jungle is that there should be less of an incentive to repeat-gank the same lane. It sucks from both sides. When your jungler is camping a different lane and you are basically left with no help at all against a losing matchup, it feels horrible. Similarly, when the enemy jungler decides to camp YOU, you basically dont get to play the game. You are removed from the game because ONE person on the enemy team has the power to do so. Idk how this would be implimented. Maybe reduce the amount of gold that you get from kills in the first 10 minutes of the game if it isnt a solo kill? Is it too much to ask for my jungler to help me reset my wave rather than gank mid for the 6th time in 10 minutes?
I think the thought of "Which metas are healthiest for the game" is something to heavily consider. Power farm junglers are less ineractive and just less enjoyable in the game. It's coin flip of "win past a point lose before" which past an ELO loses a lot of strength. It's why tank meta tends to be a bit more common than carry meta. Although it may seem a bit more boring it's more interactive than an assassin meta.
Yeah i mean its hilarious. Laners need to learn how to rightclick minions and fight against their enemy, how can Silber junglers Not learn what lane prio, jungle tracking and kiting is? These guys are just idiots.
I'm a jungle main myself and I think the exp we recieve should be slightly lowered. Showing up to gank top lane and being the same level as your team and opponent makes it a very easy fight for you since it's a 2v1. If junglers were a level behind it would make the ganks a bit easier to survive or even turn around
The biggest buff to jungle would be changing the mentality of laners so that jg isn't the one with all the world on their shoulders. If lanes work with their junglers and aren't just sitting in their lane all early game jg can lose some of its own power because you're playing more with your team. This is why mid rotating to help crabs is so effective.
Jungle is rough to balance certainly, though I think compared to Smite, the Jungle is far better in pretty much every regard. For instance in Smite I've been practicing jungling a lot, and regardless of who I choose I'm almost always a few levels behind other players, as while I can get really good clear times as as Fenrir, the XP you get in Jungle can never really compare to the XP in lanes, even if you get all three middle harpy camps which can be highly contested in the Jungle due to them being the biggest sources of in Jungle XP relatively speaking, for instance I'll be ~3-5 levels behind our Mid Lane, ~1-2 behind our Left/Bot Laners, and 2-3 Behind our Right/Top Lane, and most of my levels in a match end up coming from Gank kills or minions rather then the Jungle itself due to the difference in XP between one Player Kill, a Wave Clear or the Jungle Camps. But at the end of the day with League's Jungle I don't think I'd change much if anything while with Smite, I'd honestly be tempted to rework the entire jungle, as it just isn't satisfying or efficient to play, and outside of the odd Gank, I feel like I have very little to no impact on the game, unlike if I were playing as say Fiddlesticks in League where I have the potential to sway the course of an entire fight in my team's favour, where as if I'm playing say Fenrir, Awilix or Set at most I get the odd pick every now and again that ultimately doesn't change much since if I of all people am getting picks then my team's typically already in a winning position. But I'm by no means someone who plays MOBAs competitively however so it'd be safe to take what I say with a fair amount of salt.
Personally i have the mind set of if somethings hard its hard for a reason. I dont think the jg needs to be dumbed down when the information is out there but ppl dont bother looking. Like i feel most players would rather look for an hour long video teaching u how to aa cancel properly on riven or something than to watch a 10 minute video of how to properly go thru ur first clear.
I feel like the first things Riot needs to do to "fix" jungle is settle on one version of it. It's such an impossible role to balance because unlike the lanes, it can change overnight, as seen by the recent patch changes.
Biggest suggstion to make the jungle more beginer friendly is to make it more risky and not worth it to go into the enemy jungle early as many junglers can be rendered almost useless if they get counterjungled, also raptors and krugs deal way too much damage
Honestly I preferred when you had to buy an item for upgraded Smite. It gave junglers a "power limiter" of sorts that stopped them from getting out of hand. I would like a return to that system but perhaps have it where that item isn't 100% necessary, and you can either choose between rushing combat stats or getting combat smite. I know that personally I never have much use for my upgraded Smite as someone like Vi in the early game but I had to rush Warrior's Enchant for the damage and CDR. Inversely I really dislike the new smite item as someone like Kayn because I honestly don't use Smite much to clear and would rather just powerfarm and rush my Smite item to have it for ganking instead of being forced to waste time Smiting whenever it comes off cooldown.
As a jungler, i just hate how most players from other roles often stay outside or the other side of the dragon/rh/baron pit when contesting the objective instead of pushing inside the pit while enemy team takes the aggro. This even happens in high elo.
I believe riot needs to make jungle less reliant on the success of laners, in mid to high elo you can essentially choose a laner to make win but having played in bronze for quite a bit I can say that when your laners lose, it does not matter if you gank them 5 times and give them all the kills, you can drop them two heralds, they will still throw through any means possible, thus I belive that if riot makes jungle less reliant on the success of your laners they could decrease the overall power of junglers because it would allow for junglers to be buy and large self-sufficient, not needing laners to have good lane states or prio, or even fighting without laners rotating at all (which happens alot in bronze, and is often a point of contention for the jungler whos mid lane had prio, and they refused to rotate resulting in him dying.) basically i think they could tune down the solo carry potential of jungle if they overall decreased the influence laners have on junglers and vice versa, how would they do this? I can't really think of a way but honestly, this vague solution is the best I can think of.
Probably the easiest step towards the middle ground would be to bring back extra wards for jungle (see Jankos's comments here: ruclips.net/video/zmuRmbUYAbw/видео.html ). It has been too much a case of the Riot devs wanting their cake and eating it too: 1. They want to play to the LPL's love of the "fiesta in the dark" so they reduced wards and ward lifespans (which made it harder for the utility junglers). 2. They want to play to increase "interactivity" so they put a ton of xp on scuttles - which messed up the farm junglers. 3. They wanted to cut back on ganks and camping so they on one hand increased xp splitting (hurting botlane at the same time) - yet now they bring in extra catch-up on camps. And it goes on. There is just no real plan for the jungle role.
The fact that jungle isn't even addressed in League's tutorials to this day speaks volumes as to Riot's confidence in explaining, teaching, and balancing it.
I wonder why they didn't include it at all when the tutorial was updated. I get that there are a lot of materials out there online teaching you how to jungle. But they don't even have the basics taught in game.
Martin Ramos yeah the tutorial literally only teaches you to run it down. Fog of war, objectives and roles are literally not explained
It because jungling was created by the player base not riot everything riot does to the jungle is going to piss people off because it was never intented to be a thing they made it a thing due to how.much people were doing it
@@antiheartless45 I didn't know jungle happened organically. That's really cool.
Wild Rift actually has a decent tutorial
I like how sett was fed asf and is solo winning every single fight in the video
As a sett main I agree. Having it alt and w is overpowered in the patch.
That's just Sett
just boss things
yeee my boi sett
Meh buy 1 item remove half his shield, or play blitz and R his W.
Most important Skill in the Jungle:
Be tilt prove, since you are the Scapegoat of every laner
I am always amazed by how calm Vars' voice is in relation to the stress situations depicted on screen.
That's because these are replays :o
His voice is like 75% of the reason why I watch
The screen: a yuumi winning a 1v5 as tank yuumi
Vars voice: calm as if that was normal
My man just bustin' quality videos like they're nothing.
what u said
Thing is the skill gap between junglers is too influencial. In a lane if an opponent is way more skilled than you one can farm near tower and wait for mistakes and/or an ally's help. In the jungle there's no way to do that. There is no tower, the enemy jungler will come, kill you and steal all your camps.
So you're saying skill shouldn't be a factor in the game?
The only reason enemy jungler will come, kill and steal all camps is due to differences in skill where your jungler doesn't understand counter jungling and enemy jungle pathing
I'm saying there should be a limit. If the enemy jungler is better than you you should lose. In the current state you are out of the game. There is a difference between losing and being unable to play.
@@worsethanyou93 ... that makes 0 sense tho. because you are only unable to play because you are losing... those go hand in hand so there really isnt a difference. What you should be saying is you shouldnt just straight lose because the enemy jungler by himself is better then you. The deciding factor should be team play not 1 player beating you. If your team as a whole is better then the enemy teams then you should win. Even if your techinically worse then the enemy jungler. 1 player by themselves should not be the deciding factor of if a game is won or lost and atm thats how it is with jungle. Jungle role has too much influence and impact over the game and its a huge problem. The role already allows you to play PVE and be equal with people that are PVPing from doing so. So that itself should be attributed with a cost. The role should be weaker. You should be lower level then other players that are forced to constantly PVP and you should be punished for failed ganks and not be allowed to afk in a lane and camp it. Also smite should straight up be removed from the game. Dragon and baron should not be decided by junglers when they can already decide the fate of lanes. The two core objectives should be decided by the entire team. If smite was removed then everyone would have to work together to last hit the Dragon/baron and would encourage even more teamplay while also taking presure of the jungler.
@@sylphasiaseraphine2230 Pleb take
@@sylphasiaseraphine2230 you do raise a good point. I retract my opinion
The issue with jungle is that its too snowbally. You make one mistake and now your behind 3 levels from the laners, you can't contest any objectives by yourself because the level and gold difference, then the enemy or your own teammates steal your camps and now you're useless for the entire game and you cant even farm.
I think this is the biggest problem with the jungle that the video failed to fully address. In lane you can win, lose or get even. Junglers, on the other hand, either win or lose and there's no in between.
Also junglers are the only role whose winning bleeds to all the other lanes. Even if your Garen top feed the Sett to be 7/0 the enemy still only has one raidboss and if they don't utilise it, they lose. But if the jungler is winning, usually all the lanes are winning too as the jungler keeps the pressure up and ganks all the time. Then you have one extra fed jungler and 4 fed laners to go against. I'm no genius but 5 fed and winning players are more than 1.
And then there's what you said. You literally die ONCE in the jungle and you're useless for the rest of the game; or at least getting back to the game is extremely hard and near impossible.
@@mr.paperbag771 or have the luck of me and have usually a jungle that dies to tryndamere 2x and has as answer to your pls stop inting an im gonna feed yi hard now.
or people that have an average wr of 20% with champs that they're picking
i have more matches with an s than matches where i get carried. im within top 200 euw b1 with my champ but am still b
That is not the issue at all... the biggest issue is that a jungler can be anything ranging from tank to adc while every other role only has 2-3 roles in them. So you can’t really account for all of them. Pick a role and have that be in the jungle then push the rest out because that would make it a lot easier for it to be balanced.
At present you have not only all 7 roles as viable junglers but you also have two distinct types of junglers the power farming and tanking jungler.... picking a role for the jungle will at the very least make it a little easier to balance the power farm to gank imbalance
While one part of me thinks having the role be more accessible is a good thing, another thinks that it's making the situation worse. Typical jungle champions have a theme or playstyle that makes sense for them being in the jungle (Nidalee, Ivern, Lee Sin, Kindred). I think it's a bad idea to open the jungle to champs like Darius and Morgana, since their themes and playstyles fit traditional lane roles. The only reason they're viable now is because they have insane damage modifiers against jungle monsters. I'm not against the idea of pushing more champions into the jungle, but I feel that they are considering the wrong things when they make their approach (adding insane modifiers to damage toward jungle monsters is just lazy).
One champion I would love to see viable in jungle is Kled, since his kit and playstyle compliments the mobility and gank potential that jungle champions are known for.
There are three main objectives to the jungle role, farming, ganking, and getting objectives. It's frustrating trying to climb as a laner because it always feels like the enemy jungle is doing all three while you're left with scraps. You're ganked repeatedly and fall behind in xp and gold and lose lane pressure but "Hey at least my jungle is ganking other lanes to compensate." Except he isn't. "Well at least he's getting ahead of the enemy jungler in cs so he can carry." except he's behind in gold and underleveled. "Well at least he's prioritizing objectives like scuttle, herald, and drag?" Except he hasn't even tried to take any of them Because he's behind in level and so are his teammates so we can't help. And i can't imagine it feels good for the jungler, I've played my fair share of fill and got jungle and it's hard to juggle all of the different goals. Out of all roles Jungle is the one where skill difference is most apparent. It feels amazing to have a great jungler who solos ever objectives, beats the enemy jungler in every duel, and is always there for the perfect gank but when you lose because your jungler wasn't up to par it feels especially disheartening more so than any other role. Having the worse jungle out of all roles is the most likely to lose you the game AND make you feel the worst while it happens. Especially in a solo queue environment where communicating which such a teamwork reliant role it feels terrible when your enemy jungler makes you feel like a solo queue team against a flex queue team. And don't get me started on having the misfortune to lane against the jungler's duo partner. I really don't know what they can do about this other than reduce the number of different things junglers can do but that would negatively impact so many players i don't think it's feasible. I can only think that somehow they could give the laners just a little taste of jungler diversity to make it feel more fair.
and vision control...
Riot’s solution to everything this season seems to be: “if everything is broken, nothing is”.
Then they nerf Amumu and Chemtank into the ground while ignoring that movement speed is broken.
yeah if rito doesnt want a low playrate hero in meta they just kill it. look at Yorick lmao. and Chemtank was to give the ohter 2 items a reason to exist
Movement speed has been in the game for a long time. Movement speed with those stats was broken.
This aged very poorly. Riot actually nerfed movement speed systematically.
@@tonylolu no it didn’t. Riot only nerfed movement speed relatively recently but for the first 5 months of this season let movespeed and lifesteal become huge problems that needed to be addressed continuously.
@@jcstaff1007 that's why this aged poorly. It wasn't just a nerf it was a systematic nerf to all Ms
I'd say it's a misconception that junglers don't interact early-game. Even if you end up not ganking for a long time, you're interacting far more than most laners because you have to look at what's going on on all lanes, understand every other player's attitude to know what they're going to do next, and plan your pathing accordingly.
In the end though, the role will never be balanced in the eyes of laners because as a laner you can climb to at least plat with the minimap disabled, macro is not part of the skill floor of lanes whereas it is the biggest part of the jungle's skillfloor. This is why the jungle role is so excruciating in low elo, because while you have to put in effort and thoughts every single minute of the game, laners can just go full aggressive all the time and rely only on their micro, and when they fail at their micro or get ganked because they overextend, they just claim "jgl diff" and go on with their lives never wanting to improve (or should I say start having) macro.
Laners also only see the impact jungle has on lanes because it's obvious and in their faces, but don't see the impact they themselves have on junglers by having prio, helping at scuttle, creating gank opportunities... They never see it as a failure on their part when their jungler is in a bad spot, they only see it as a failure of the jungler and will not hesitate to blame him.
Until high elo, junglers basically play a different game that you can't autopilot on, that has to be mastered to be efficient, and that gets constantly flamed no matter how skilled the player is. It's no wonder the role is so deserted anytime junglers can't get enough of a lead regularly to 1 vs 9.
I'm sorry to say that but I just can say that I agree, I'm low Elo returning jungler from playing mid for a while and as a low Elo mid all I need to do in order to achive a victory was knowing when to E to a dagger (I was a Kat OTP XD) and start geting Kills, and then apply my macro knowledge. In the jungle the result was bad cuz my macro is not that good, in the other hand since I learned how to play Kat in a decent level for the Elo, the result was never losing XD. And that's the reason I returned to the jungle cuz characters are not as fin to play as Kat (in my opinion) but the role is much more demanding and the feeling of achivement is highly bigger when I'm able to win.
(Sorry if there is any mistake, I'm not from an English speaking country and my phone just likes to change words XD)
One thing maining jungle has taught me is that as a laner, it should be my responsiblity to also actively check the minimap and help my jungler secure major objectives and scuttle, cause that shit helps and in most of my games people just have tunnel vision on their own lanes and do nothing to take advantage of any oppporunities i.e. bot lane over-extending to harass the other laner when the other jungler is elsewhere and there is a clear opening to take dragon.
The problem is, they made jungle objectives too important, so team is always reliant on jg to be good. They should make drakes and baron even more late game objectives, and the priority should be external towers. This way you force more activity on ganking and teamwork, rather than: "oh fuck, someone got caught and now we can't contest shit". This also makes laning phase more engaging, but also probably longer, so they should reduce spawn times of drakes later in the game.
Like, a good, solid game, should go for 30 min; a fast one, at least 20 and a long one 40-45 min. The way gameplay is designed now is either u done by 7 min in, or you stuck for almost an hour in a game
Any chance you’d consider covering Karma? Someone mentioned her in a previous video and mentioned some interesting things such as she was the first champ to get a real rework. Since then shes gotten a mini rework and has been on a rollercoaster of buffs and nerfs with her community of mains being very divided on which of the three Karma’s they think is best. On top of all that now she rarely sees competitive play because of all the mess. I think this could make for a really interesting video! Especially since I didn’t know any of these facts before hand and I’m really intrigued to learn some more. (If I took your comment I’m sorry, whatever your name is! I just wanted to try and give it more coverage.)
@@lamoire1143 * Taked off glasses * Oh my..
What? Karma's been picked in pro play a lot (even in msi)
@zora she’s had 1 pick and 1 ban at msi so far, that’s nothing
"Riot has power cret jungle to be so easy and accessible that it is impossible to normally balance it anymore"
the thing with jungle is that you need to adapt with all playstyles in order to be a good jungler
Jungle is like an Open-World RPG role
Meanwhile Mid, Bot and Top are PvP
After all the changes over the years the "comebacks" are more frequent than ever, now even the jungle has that capacity, but instead of being fun I feel like it makes the game more stressful, creating situations when the winning team has to play perfectly and end because every mistake hurts a lot and can cost the game
I can relate to this comment, and specially since the majority of the people playing league is in low elo the players don't have the capacity to know every single time how to end a match before the enemy comeback, an example of this is one of my past solo q, we won a crucial teamfight, i died so the rest of the team could ended, the jungler was clever enough to go for the nexus, but the rest of the team went baron instead of helping, that mistake made the enemy team have a comeback so strong that we lost no matter how many times we splitpushed or even went for open nexus
You just described the scaling meta we're playing in. Closing out games early requires a coordination that's not realistic for a soloq environment, making early game champions too risky for the trouble and the "play safe and farm" just as if not more rewarding of a style despite its much lower risk.
The game shouldn't be decided by the early game dumbass, that's such a stupid thing to say
@Zakareya Alatoli you got a point
@Zakareya Alatoli Yes but we're talking about the degree to which this effect should take place. The argument is that in the current gamestate comebacks are waaay too easy to pull off, not that they shouldn't exist. Comebacks should still happen in league, but the current gamestate isn't forgiving enough to teams that have played the early game better
One thing u missed on Darius is that wit ghost + flash and Stridebreaker, he isn't even slow anymore, the supposed weakness of juggernauts.
dont forget when he gets deadmans as his 4th item
>increased jungle accessibility
Can't wait to play Swain jungle.
5:45 Just wanna go on a bit of a rant, some champions have had their weaknesses either lessened or worsened with the new items, such as Darius, you should be able to kite, CC and keep him outside his pull range, but now there’s a bunch of items that can give bruisers and juggernauts move speed, along with other things, so now, he’s just weaker to CC and such than he is to kiting
Just don't have a jungle role. This post was brought by the DOTA and HotS gang
@@Donny_Nominal Or playing on Blackheart's Bay
Ive been out of dota for a bit, what happened to LC, Enigma, Furion etc? They offlaners now?
There are champions now that are made to jungle tho... kindred was made to be in the jungle she has quite low attack range and so will be poked out of bot lane take her top and most of the bruisers can get on top of her and destroy her face... graves is op as a top lane but would be destroyed as a bot laner...Khazix was once one of the most op midlaners in the game it was only once they put him in the jungle that they could balance him... hecarim to this day has balance issues outside of the jungle... it’s a big issue for a lot of champions...
Also how would the meta shape up at that point two bruisers in the top lane at about the same level as the arc?? Adc would be on overpowered at that point.... AGAIN
@@Donny_Nominal then you get the issue where every champ of a class feels the same...its a catch 22 really....
@@bryanhickernell7189 Kindred would have still been unique and probably easier to balance if they just never included her jungle marks. Either take out her mark-stacking or leave it on champions only. Then she could be allowed to have a real shot at being balanced, and not permanently under/over powered.
I don't have an issue with junglers being too strong as much as I do with tanks! It's pretty great when the full tank, no damage build can out-damage everyone and never die! :) League of tanks baby!
"So much easier to play."
*laughs in optimal Fiddles clear*
oh yeah dude it's SOOOOOOO HAAAAARD
I picked it up in a couple of hours, but I'm sure it's such a high skill thing
people like you are the reason why jungle needs to be buffed despite being broken
I'm a jungler btw
How is fiddle's clear hard xdd
@@ΝικόλαοςΘεοδωρίδης-γ6λ Try doing it under 3:10 and you'll see.
@@ΝικόλαοςΘεοδωρίδης-γ6λ fiddles ideal clear is blue+wolves > blue+gromp > Red+raptors > red+ krugs > krugs.
It sucks to have to constantly have 2 campsvat the edge of their distance at any moment without resetting
@@AlexanderDietstein I barely play nowdays, it's just called being smarter than an animal, plenty of people are
Hecarim went from being able to kill everyone to being able to help everyone kill everyone else
sooo he's a roaming engage support now?
@@raultamjid9725 basically, yeah
In terms of identity, Riot could start by advertising Junglers for what they actually are, Roaming Supports
I would say that they are either roaming supports or roaming carries. It depends on which class they are in
More like Roaming Anything
@Abserial well support can actually be defined by alot of things it's a much more versatile role than vars let on. Jungle in a way should be played as a support to get laners ahead. There are only very few jungles that really need to be fed cause they are carries everything else is basically made to help the laners get ahead and get objectives.
As someone pointed out, the jungle (and by extension, the game) is hard to balance not only because the amount of stuff in it, but also because Riot keeps trying to make it "accessible". Riot is trying, has always been, to guide the game somehow instead of letting players do it by themselves. And hey, it's not like Riot can't push a little here and there to see a specific champion being used in some ways, but everytime someone discovers new ways to play champions, Riot destroys it.
And that's how the jungle became so weird. They should've let the jungle be a place were you need to have enough native tools to survive there (like Zac and Warwick) or be able to purchase it. But that's it. Instead of trying to push a specific type of gameplan or gameplay for the jungle, Riot should let the players decide what works and not, and only try to nerf/buff it if it's too overbaring.
Games can, and should, be accessible, but sacrificing the learning curves or hard paths to success because "players won't want to play this role otherwise" is stupid. There will ALWAYS be someone that wants to play the harder role, either because they enjoy it, or because they like a champion that can do it. Riot FORCING the need for a jungler to exist (by enforcing the 1-1-1-2 meta we had since forever) is the reason we "need" champions designed just for the jungle, instead of making champions that are interesting and let players figure out where to put them later on. A lot of characters got solidified into roles in this way, they were designed for a primary purpose, but players found it's better to use them differently. That adds depth to the game. Adds possibility for the players to come up with weird and cool ways to solve problems. And Riot is constantly taking away this side of the game, since ever, because casual players or lazy players can't be bothered to put the effort into learning stuff.
Imo it's fine if Rito wants to make the call to guide the game into being played a certain way... *if they are consistent with it.*
I constantly see Riot overlooking solo-lane champions going into support, for example, but if a champion designed for support leaves to go elsewhere, then Riot homes in on it like an ICBM because 'they're not meant to do that'.
It also doesn't help that Riot themselves doesn't have any resources for learning the role as they want it to be. Yeah, sure, the community's got plenty, but *Riot* has no in-client solution for players wanting to check out jungle for the first time, and that's never a good thing. You shouldn't want your players to dive in headfirst to a complex role like jungle when the likely outcome is going to be ruining the game for your four other teammates.
@@ArceusShaymin also, there's the fact that summoner spells are still unlocked by leveling (for some reason), which leads to most low level players to gravitate to the roles that are possible to play without smite, which is litterally the last one to unlock, that mixed with the lack of a tutorial, or at the very least, an official list of good champions to learn the role, makes it so that it's basically the least popular role in the game for lower levels
The music in this video sounds like you are about to face the final villain in a turn based RPG and he is giving you his speech right before the battle.
This is why I loved seasons 5-6 with their power farm meta. Almost all the problems with the jungle go away when ganking isn't prevalent. Instead of balancing around a whole bunch of different factors, they'll only need to balance:
1. Late game carry potential.
2. Average clear speeds.
This makes it so that the only difference between junglers is how they want to carry, ad carry, assassin carry, control mage carry, tank carry, etc.
Where would ganking junglers go? They would become invade junglers, while yes they can clear fast they have the option to dick over the enemy jungler. Powerfarm junglers are then the simple ones, but given depth as they have to plan their path to avoid being "ganked" themselves. With catch-up exp and the bounty system, invading junglers will have enough chances to match/shut-down the opponent.
The "toxic" part of that meta was that champion being able to just 1v5 doing pve. However, all it takes is a single winning lane, and the skill to transfer that lead to neutralize the enemy jungler. This makes drafting important, which lanes play for neutral/getting ahead, and it also makes a laner's individual skill/ability to outplay directly impact the direction of the game.
Idk, just by initial thoughts.
Personally I think Jarvan could go in “Why No One Plays” series.
Almost least played jungler, so yes
hes pretty popular in higher elos
I like jarvan ultimate and his flag mechanic, but aside from this, i think his pretty boring, he's a tank but has doesn't have the skills of a tank. His only tank skill is W, but that shield is small.
Also he scales with BONUS AD, which is a pretty bad status.
Jarvan used to be known as a well-rounded, jack of all trades, master of none type of champion. The Orianna of the jungle one may say. Always a solid pick, rarely overtuned. He is a hybrid of a tank jungler and early game aggressor. Both have strong ganks, as does Jarvan. Early game aggressors have strong dueling. Jarvan may not match that, but his is still stronger than that of a tank. Tanks have strong teamfight utility. Jarvan may not match that, but his is still stronger than that of an early aggressor.
The problem with Jarvan is that his "tank half" drags him down. Tanks are by far the weakest class in the game and while Jarvan share some of the strenghts of an Elise or a Rek'sai, he don't have all of them, and he still has the weaknesses of a tank. Tanks will get bullied out by early aggressors. Tanks will get outscaled by power farmers. The same holds true for Jarvan.
His versatility was once valuable. But the thing he can flex into today is what drags him down.
@@shacolin6546 tanks the worst class? No way, Nautilus, Leona, malphite, Cho gath.
The problem is that jarvan isn't a good tank he only has a small shield and that's It.
I would personally jungle to move away fro power farming and to a sort of Gank-Support/Finisher.
I am biased on this front, I main Fiddle, Vi and Warwick in that order. I think this would eliminate the PvE problem and the Identity problem.
I think jungle, at its core as a role, is unbalanced. You give 1 person on your team complete control over the tempo of the game. The jungler dictates how fast or slow the game is played and they dictate it for all of the game, I think that’s what makes the role unbalanced and I don’t think there’s a good solution. Personally, I think the smite changes didn’t really matter, building a jungle item kept a lot of junglers in check so they wouldn’t spike as hard. For example, kha’zix can base for a serrated dirk on his first base with 1100 but without the smite changes, he would build a caulfields which gives not as much AD which meant that junglers would spike AT the completed jungle item but not before it as they do from the components in this season.
Well I think at it's base like another commenter said it's a permanent roaming support. I think riot, like the support role champs, really needs to define jungle champs like that. Where their role and what they are meant to do is clearly defined so that their only job to get lanes ahead and secure objectives where they went wrong was putting SO many champs that do massive damange as jungles instead of more champs like ivern.
Jungle is the extra "slot" that a team composition needs/takes. For example, if toplane takes a ranged mage or squishy fighter with little to no CC, the jungle can take up that role and be a tank jungle or higher CC jungler (example: if someone takes Teemo top, jungle can take Cho'Gath). Jungle can cover the "holes" in a team comp, thus making a teamfight better, OR can double up on a role. Like if you have a Juggernought top AND jungle making your team and frontline all that more beefy, and difficult to chew through. That is why Jungle touches so many roles, because it is, in effect, the "Wild Card" for the team.
As someone who likes jungle as a secondary. I actually like the seesaw effect since it lets me change champions a lot and also keeps me on my toes which is a skilled trait in general to be flexible. That’s a reason why I’ve always liked jungle
I can finally play jungle Teemo and not use 100% of my brain power from clearing the jungle alone.
Having played since late season 2, not so much lately for obv reasons, jg is the one role I just haven't been able to wrap my head around.
League in general is a balance nightmare. Too much snowball. It's designed to both give each individual player the ability to solo-carry and be a team game-which is an awful combination IMO.
As long as League stays a team-based game that you queue up for solo/duo, it will always be a mess.
snowballing makes games faster so it's actually a good thing. a system where the losing team is continuously being over-buffed to compensate for the lack of gold/objectives simply drags the game on forever....
@@jackcough8155 yeah but the game is unenjoyable for the losing team, since there chances of winning is low. The games are quicker but I don't see problems of a longer game.
@@ДюсековИльяс true but according to most polls people want games 20-30 mins tops... i mean i personally enjoy longer games as well but i don't see the problem in faster paced 25 minute games either
@@jackcough8155 snowbally game makes it so that every lane has 5 viable champions at best and they are lane bullies. You can’t play karthus, twisted fate, Aurelion sol etc.
Biggest problem for every Jungle player are the 4 other bots he has to play with.
jungle: *has the most champions*
Riot: Let's add some more
actually toplane is the one who has the biggest roster, jungle only has the biggest diversity when talking about things riot balance around
@@CoqueiroLendario Considering literally anything can be played Toplane....
Yeah you're right
To be fair, you can play anything in jungle if you're good enough. Xayah and Sett are actually good junglers, and Rakan is k-meta jungler (haven't tried him tho, I don't own him).
@@sunnydargonnel Looks at my Predator Ornn Jungle "yeah you're right"
Me: *cries in 15 adcs*
Another example of Riot's attempt to "reduce snowball" actually make snowball EXTREMELY harder.
Picture this: You get invaded at level 1, lose your camps and you are now behind. Catch-up EXP will help but I digress, if the enemy team keeps putting pressure and clearing your jungle camps more, you get farther and farther away from completing your smite quest, thus resulting in you being a complete dead weight, with a smite dealing only half damage. If this isn't going to icentivize pro-play to put AS MUCH pressure in the jungle as possible, to snowball the hardest, I don't know what will.
I think the only way to balance jungle would be to migrate out alot of champs that do massive damange in the jungle role in place of more champs like ivern in the jungle. The jungle should mostly be support and what they are designed to do is get laners ahead and secure objectives. Riot went wrong with having so many brusiers and assassin's really defining the role.
Or, alternatively, how about we just migrate entire classes of champions (some of which designed for the role) out of your favorite role? Here's another option: just alter lanes so that they have more macro opportunities. That way the game is actually focused on teamplay instead of just being 3 instances of a 1v1/2v2 game. Maybe teleport could be removed as a summoner spell and replaced with purchasable tp scrolls like they have in dota.
A new vars and Exil videos in the same day? Yes please
Because of the traits of the champs I mean. You have every possible flavor of junglers. Just like icecream
Maybe I'm crazy, but the randomness of jungle is what makes the role fun for me. If there was a specific identity jungle needed to be, then only the champions that fulfill that identity problem would be viable. Having it be an open ground for every type of champion is why jungle is so fun and threatening, because it will have a different impact each game. Is it a good game design, probably not, but it sure does make the role fun and gives the game the depth it needs to not be the same every match.
the role that is impossible to balance is Riven-shen
Riven-Shen? *shudders*.
River Shen
River Shen
River Shen
I unironically used to say that jungle should be removed and be a 4v4 game, and this video is proof of why that suggestion might actually be viable. Amazing quality as always vars, keep it up :)
Woah woah woah I never said they should remove jungle.
@@VarsVerum I never said you said that; I was talking about my suggestion
Nah
Bring back 6v6 hexakill
2 top 1 mid 2 bot 1 jg
More more more
I would've wanted to see sett's point of view in the kha'zix's game cause he looked extra chad
I think something riot could do is to make the first scuttle spawn just give vision, and less gold and exp in general. The neutral camps just make the jungle too snowbally, if their top and mid have priority, I'm probably not getting that scuttle and fall behind.
THEY DID IT YOU MADLAD
I main kindred and i can say hecarim and udyr being op hurts me more than it hurts you. Udyr is on a pain late but when hecarim takes you out of ult with their e and chases you til you cry. Kindred's mobility and range just become useless. She's getting buffed and Heccy boi is getting the nerf hammer so i might actually be able to play her in season 11
Have you tried her in adc? Its so fun with either HoB or PtA after reaching 4 marks you will be better than most adc champions
i’ll tell ya, I played Kindred in one game after her buff and it was the most fun jungle game I had in a while. Given in that game our team snowballed hard and kept them out of the game, but it was honestly a hilariously fun kindred game.
Note: this is coming from someone who mostly plays Lillia and Rammus bc I suck at jungling, but want to learn it
Balancing jungle = deleting hecarim and nunu
Yeah right like thats ever gonna happen
Hecarim got basically deleted from the meta after his nerf. As for nunu I don't know. He seems pretty balanced to me.
Li Sin is pretty kek
The problem is that would make other junglers "OP"
And either delete Udyr or nerf his Phoenix stance.
Oh and make comeback exp not be a thing for Shaco specifically so he can’t cheese the Fuck out of your laners, not touch his camps yet still only be 1/2 a level behind you.
While I'm very much a noob in LoL, it seems to me that the game would be better off with the Jungler role being shifted into a "roamer" role, where the job is to assist in other lanes. Kind of like how Support works, where the job is not to dominate a lane, but to make an impact and find success in synergizing with other roles (albeit by helping in different lanes as needed, rather than being attached to the Carry in the bottom lane when not placing wards). Make the rewards of jungling--specifically, the gold amounts and possibly the strength of red and blue buffs)--too low to find success power farming; make Jungling about helping other lanes; make the Jungler item kind of like the Support items; you get gold that would otherwise be unobtainable by helping your teammates (you get gold by being near an ally when minions die, you get extra gold from assists/kills when near other champions, but with caps/limits/charges, and it's all tied into an item that needs to be upgraded with gold--which upgrades your smite--that gives you much more gold for killing jungle creatures than you would otherwise get [while nerfing the amount of gold champions without that item would get for killing the creatures]).
That's how jungle worked in the past and it was awful, nobody wants to play a second support as an assassin, skirmisher, mage. The role isn't popular if you copy the playstyle of the second less popular role, there isn't much change, even less people will play
since the video hasnt premiered yet im gonna ask where are you guys from
im from singapore
I NEED THIS SETTS BUILD OMFG HE JUST STRAIGHT UP 1 V 5
Its sett
That is his whole point
Sett Build:
200 Years
Frequent gold injections
Fear in the enemies eyes
i think he went frostfire, titanic, tabi, steraks, and last 2 items, you can buy DD,Spirit visage,dead man plate
I agree with Vars-I don’t think Riot’s goal of expanding the jungle champion pool is a good idea. I mean we already have the overtuned Morg jungle, and we all saw Rossboomsocks literally solo dragon as jungle Darius at level 1 (yes, he did wait 5 mins without doing anything lmao). The other changes, like having smite be a flat number, isn’t nearly as bad an idea. Jungle gap does feel bad, especially if the jungler has no way to compensate for it (example being nunu jg having a huge smite regardless of level).
Catch up exp is the one thing I’ll be super happy to have back. We won’t have to have a lvl 14 mid and top with a lvl 12 jungle and lvl 10 botlane anymore, hooray! I hate that feeling honestly. You don’t even have your lvl 2 ult yet and the midlaner is already most of the way to lvl 3 ult. It’s extremely frustrating to constantly be at a level disadvantage, and be forced to 2v1 and even then, risk losing bc you’re under leveled.
Riot has to rework a lot of stuff. While lots of people are agreeing, that there is to much damage in the game, if riot would just nerf it, we would have to much shielding or healing in the game. Nerf that, and we got no answers to newer champions, specifically developed for this kind of game. Take kai'sa for example: Imagine a hypercarry adc with a semi global instant dash ult that gives here a shield around 800 hp was released in Season 6. It would have instantly become the strongest champion in the game, just by mere matter of stats.
Also sometimes riot seems to fix problems by just painting over it with new features: Immobile carries are to easily shut down -> give them a dash on an item -> Assassins and bruiser suddenly cant catch up any more (especially with already mobile carries) -> also give them a dash. It just seems like the games starts to just swell up with more and more features, not only on new champs, but also old ones.
Jungling is pve, it has biggest amount of viable picks, you can turn losing matchups into snowballing lanes, but jungle is the most complicated role in game. You have to monitor a tone of information, know your pathing, know enemies jungle timers, make a lot of decisions with farm / gank / win condition lanes and so on. Jungle can not really be fixed. It is the role that shapes and breaks the meta. So it has to be always offsetting the whole game in some way. And, that's what riot is serving junglers - they are constantly changing jungle, so we have to adapt, though the changes rarely really change the game in global perspective. Also... Remove chemtank, it just throws away any skill needed to gank advanced lanes 🙄
I think that one concept was greatly overlooked in this video: pressure.
Jungler applies great pressure to litetally everyone on the Rift. Until you know for a fact where the jungler is, you are always at risk of getting gank (or you should be). While in low elo this isn't really taken into account much, in higher elo (maybe Gold and above?), keeping track of the jungler is a headache. Certain junglers (Nocturne, Hecarim) demonstrate this concept really well with their ability to gank a lane very well (Nocturne's R and Hecarim's legs). Laners have to either deep ward (which might not be possible at times) or play extremely safe (which might lose the game) to be able to protect themselves from ganks of those junglers because warding the river or the bush near top might not be enough. By the time you spot some of these junglers, your fate is sealed.
Tldr: Jungler is a role about pressure and map control, noy knowing where the jungler is prevents a lot of potential play in-game and forces people to play safer than they could have.
I had my fair share of laning experience before starting to jungle (Which became my main and favorite role), and I understand why people believe jungle is an unfair role, the influence that one can have in the game is huge when ahead, and zero when behind. But even then, everytime I go back to playing lane roles such as top, I have a much better understanding of when I can or cannot do something, resulting in me having a fairly safe laning phase and almost never dying to ganks. In my opinion, a big issue is that laners don't take in consideration learning the basics of jungle, when good junglers have to take in consideration conditions of laning such as wave management, cooldowns, item advantage from recall timings, etc.
This isn't me ranting bout laners, but more on the huge difference that it makes to know jungle clears, respawn timers, jungler's favorite angles to gank, and many other things that make you say "Jg Gap". Knowing when to make use of prio as a laner, or warding properly against champions such as Kayn, Fiddlesticks, Evelynn, Rek'sai or Nidalee can completely ruin the enemy jungler's tempo and raise your winning chances by a lot.
I just want laners to be nicer to junglers, the amount of flame and toxicity towards junglers seems to have increased this season.
You'd have a better chance at being stuck by lightning. The league community itself is just toxic and everyone shits on every role.
I think jungling should have more cost and reword. By increasing camp damage, reducing camp hp, and increasing camps stat scaling (also including gold and xp). This would help slow clearing, and power clearing junglers, and force early game junglers to focus more on ganking without becoming irrelevant mid game. What do you think about this?
“Back in the day only a few champions could go to jungle... such as zac, sejuani, olaf etc” Remembering the days when to jungle you had to play shaco, fiddle or warwick (that’s it, not really sure about warwick though)and it was a really difficult thing to do
I think the biggest problem is that as many people say "mid can play as second jungle". And that shows. Main goal of the jungle is just help other lanes win. But choise HOW you gonna do it is so vast that basicly ANYONE can play it.
Ether:
You can just clear jungle and wait for enemy jungler to countergang him.
You can just gang every lane and make enemy fall behind
You can just power farm and outscale everyone to the point no one can deal with you.
You can control main objectives that will give edge to laners.
You can just 1v1 enemy jungler and render him useless or not 1v1 him and just steal his camps.
By that you can be ether just a brute that will destroy everyone with strength or master mind that will just let enemies fall to your trap.
Not to menition that many forget that it's strategy game and balancing where gold go is bread and butter of this game. Also compare to any lane jungle operate on fix timers when money and where money will spawn...
This makes this role basicly impossible to control.
Wow, I still have to learn a lot about the jungle role. Nice video!
I feel i like jungle should be the wild card role to bring the class or champion you need into your comp
I just want to play with my warwick again...
Rip tiamat
I know this might be crazy, but hear me out: turn lane into pseudo jungle
Explain
How would that work? Have monsters in lane?
Welp, instead of farming just minion laners will farm their own camp , or sth like that
@@v01dabby76 and how are you supposed to pushen Towers? How will you fit enough Camps into the map to make it Balanced? How will supports get their Gold? What would hold back the players to create a funnel role, where you play kogmaw and lulu jungle farming Everything and healing 3 Tanks in solo Lanes just farming a camp here and there. That wouldnt be league of legends anymore. Idk call it league of warcraft or something
You mean mobile legends? Fk no
9:25 "[currently meta champion class] is extra strong in the jungle because in the jungle you can safely farm for your item and level powerspike if you're good at reading your enemy's movements."
key part of this sentence:
"if your'e good at reading your enemy's movements."
Likewise, a laner can safely farm for their item and level powerspikes if they're good at trading and managing the wave. If you consider knowing how to properly trade and wave manage to be a laner's "lane phase skill", then knowing when to safely gank, invade, and take objectives is a jungler's "lane phase skill".
Additionally, this statement stipulates (the whole video kinda does this as well) that a jungler can basically vibe during lane phase and still come out on the other side of it having had an equal impact on their team's chances of winning the game. But this is NOT the case. Objectives are very important and I'm surprised aren't talked about more in the video since they can dramatically turn the tide of a game. Even if two junglers are relatively even in kda/level/cs and equally ganked their laners, the one who took more dragons and heralds had the higher impact on their team's chances of winning the game coming out of lane phase. The skill of preparing and taking objectives, especially during lane phase, should be taken into account when assessing the difficulty and balance of the jungle role. How good someone is at this certainly plays into the role's impact.
Jungle also changes when labers does example of passive meta late game meta or early meta so you have to change routes and playstyles
Also Because the roster is so diverse its only normal that you cant balance high portion of it
i think another important factor is the average skill level has risen considerably from the time that jg was gated by sustain. the role needs to adapt to this.
part of riot's interest in lowering the floor for jungling is about matchmaking. as a jungler you never get autofilled and the queue times are lower. distributing the player base equally between roles is in their interest, as is lowering the barrier to entry. it increases the longevity of the game, as i would assume the amount of new players isn't rising.
Jungle just has too much impact. You feel jungle pressure and jungle difference every game and it’s frustrating for both the Laners and junglers since the jungler is gonna get flamed for messing up (and often even when he did nothing wrong) and the Laners get frustrated and punished for having a bad jungler. It should just be a 2nd support role where they still have impact but I think no jungler should ever be able to 1v1 an even solo Laner that’s just dumb
An idea that came to mind but I honestly haven't put much thought into, what if they buffed jg monsters with every clear so that junglers would have to either spend more time in the jungle or give up farm to help their laners with a gank? They kinda already do this but if the problem is they can do everything really well, it seems the solution would be to try and force them to focus more on a couple.
Make an item so that powerfarm and gang heavy is seperated reward players for cpunter jungling and punish powerfarmers for powerfarming by making counter jungle easier and reward powerfarmers if they can survive the pressure of the enemy this way junglers now have an opponent but it isnt a direct 1v1
My main problems with Jungle:
-Reworked very often. Especially when i play off meta junglers, i have to relearn the game every 6 months
-Priority, especially mid. You can't get Map Control if enemy has priority all the time, think of playing with a Kassadin and trying to get Prio for Dragon.
-Lack of understanding. We all heard our laners say "Just Gank", "enemy mid 5 times, my jungler 0 times" or them spam pinging if we tax (even if the laner got the kill). Most of the times, my laner doesn't understand the reasons for those plays (like pushing to roam for drake, or a matchup that could screw you in a counter gank, etc.)
My proposal for balance: Delete Jungle role, make summoners rift a 4v4, and add walls around each entry point to the jungle/ baron and dragon pits.
So there was this Moba
It had a simple rule
Lane offers more gold the jungle offers more XP
In the game the junglers would in most cases be ahead in levels and in order to actually advance on items getting kills and assist was essencial in your jungle rotation
As you where ahead in levels yes this did mean that junglers where really dangerous to face making them really powerful in the early game it also meant that if the enemy avoided being killed by the jungler early on he would lag behind in items
Round 2 of commenting for more engagement because algorithms!! Well thought out vid as always :D
8:40 i agree, but it was pretty much impossible to play jungle before xD
May I ask where you have got the song running in the background from? Or is it self made?
I feel like the biggest problem with the Jungle is that there is simply too many objectives that rely on that role. A big portion of the flow of the game relies solely on the jungler, even if you have a roaming Sup, mid and top, the guy carrying the smite is the one who will dictate when to get scuttle, herald, baron and dragon. And those four, specially those last three, have indirect impacts on the whole, regardless if you saw the jungler or not this match. Having a single player to be the dedicated "smite" and responsible for securing the most important objectives (to some extent, even more so than towers and inhibitors), is the problem itself. It's impossible to balance a role like that because either everything about the game is on their lap, or they are so nerfed they can barely do anything.
To make an example, imagine if in CS:GO the moment you started a match a single player would be designated to be the bomb carrier on TR and they were also obligated be the entry fragger (and on the other side, only one guy with the kit). Everything about the match would rely on that sole player: if they get inside the bomb site, they win the round, if not, your team loses, simple as that. Sure, once in a blue moon the awper will get 3 dudes from the other team or someone will manage to pick up the c4, but 99% everything would depend on that player.
It's kind of weird, but I think if Riot removed Smite from the game, the jungle would be a lot easier to balance. Securing objectives would depend a lot more on team rotation and coordination, and junglers would rely a lot more on either ganking early, power farming or counter jungling in order to win.
I believe Jungle is a more supportive and team fighting role , so i hope riot intends to keep it that way
Keeps it or makes it?
Rn it's not really a supportive one
Jg controls the game and others support them
In other words, why I love being a jungle main
When you download wild rift, the tutorial there says jungle is usually for assassins who can lurk around I believe. With that being said, i don't like the smite changes they're proposing. Why should baron be 50/50 toss up if I'm up 5 levels on their jg? They should make it that when you hit lvl 18 smite damage doubles again to 1800 or something
I really didn't care about Jungle since I don't know when. But it's when they buffed Poppys stats against jungle camps. The clear is better and mana management is so good. The clear speed is fairly nice too. Overall my main Poppy got all the more suitable as a Jungle pick since that patch.
I think that the vision plants are a good step to balance the jungle.
Are you powerfarming alone? Opponents can gain vision on you and kill you since you're isolated.
Are you ganking a lot? Opponents can see you using vision plant and know if there's a danger of an imminent gank.
Are you invading or being invaded? Control of plants can make or break your survival.
Plants provide skill-dependent tools to interact with the junglers, in contrast to the past where you could only discover what they were doing if your support or mid were invading the enemy camps.
Also, I think that smoothing clears for jungle is a good thing, because the game in essence is about interacting with other players. The main reason why I think these changes are occurring, is because sometimes your jungler is autofilled. While getting autofilled to lane, you can farm defensively under turret and get away with not losing the game for your team, but in the jungle you don't have this option. This means that you're constantly at risk and have to interact with your lanes from a worse position than the enemy jungler. If in addition to that, you had a chance of actually getting executed by jungle monsters, you would essentially be getting punished for being autofilled to jungle.
And if you don't believe me, think about the number of times that you remember bad players getting executed by jungle monsters in past seasons (including me), and try telling them that it's still a fair game for them.
Honestly, I think the healthiest, at least from a laner's perspective, is to make camps be worth a lot of gold and XP, but take an extremely long time to clear. That way, you are forced to either sacrifice your late game in order to gank or sacrifice your early in order to farm up. This way, you don't overly hurt either power farmers or power gankers, but give both a high cost in exchange for their strengths
imo.. if you wanna learn map-related stuffs and quick real-time decisions, play jungle. I told that to all new Wild Rift players that comes by my streams. You'll be able to get a grasp on what usually happens on the lanes by carefully watching the map, make predictions on which lane is going down by knowing the comps, and learn overall map movements not only for you, but everyone else too.
Looks like Master Yi is going to be fun to play against next patch
I think there's a holdover problem of the very design of jungle that makes it fairly hard to balance, since jungle was originally made for the purpose of extra exp. for the laners when roaming. It was created with everyone in mind because everyone was originally supposed to benefit from it by balancing out their leveling curve.
We have to remember that jungle only became a role because players figured that there was roughly enough exp to be gained in the jungle so that two lanes could go singleton without the jungle farming player being vastly underleveled.
I don't know much about balance of jungle and how it could be improved but my god! It is so hard to to know how to do jungle camps when you don't play jungle regularly and I feel like there is a big change to the jungle every few months that compleatly changes the way you do camps. I just wish jungle camps were more like herald and scuttle, had clearer weaknesses and were easier to kill overall. It shouldn't be a problem to kill a jungle camp! Tft has got that right.
@@micah4420 I don't want to sound mean but you just described how it's suppose to work in theory, in practice it's a lot more convoluted than that.
My only big complain with the jungle is that there should be less of an incentive to repeat-gank the same lane. It sucks from both sides. When your jungler is camping a different lane and you are basically left with no help at all against a losing matchup, it feels horrible. Similarly, when the enemy jungler decides to camp YOU, you basically dont get to play the game. You are removed from the game because ONE person on the enemy team has the power to do so.
Idk how this would be implimented. Maybe reduce the amount of gold that you get from kills in the first 10 minutes of the game if it isnt a solo kill? Is it too much to ask for my jungler to help me reset my wave rather than gank mid for the 6th time in 10 minutes?
I think the thought of "Which metas are healthiest for the game" is something to heavily consider. Power farm junglers are less ineractive and just less enjoyable in the game. It's coin flip of "win past a point lose before" which past an ELO loses a lot of strength. It's why tank meta tends to be a bit more common than carry meta. Although it may seem a bit more boring it's more interactive than an assassin meta.
Crazy how so many jungle players fail to meet basic “expectations”
Yeah i mean its hilarious. Laners need to learn how to rightclick minions and fight against their enemy, how can Silber junglers Not learn what lane prio, jungle tracking and kiting is? These guys are just idiots.
I'm a jungle main myself and I think the exp we recieve should be slightly lowered. Showing up to gank top lane and being the same level as your team and opponent makes it a very easy fight for you since it's a 2v1. If junglers were a level behind it would make the ganks a bit easier to survive or even turn around
The biggest buff to jungle would be changing the mentality of laners so that jg isn't the one with all the world on their shoulders. If lanes work with their junglers and aren't just sitting in their lane all early game jg can lose some of its own power because you're playing more with your team. This is why mid rotating to help crabs is so effective.
Jungle is rough to balance certainly, though I think compared to Smite, the Jungle is far better in pretty much every regard.
For instance in Smite I've been practicing jungling a lot, and regardless of who I choose I'm almost always a few levels behind other players, as while I can get really good clear times as as Fenrir, the XP you get in Jungle can never really compare to the XP in lanes, even if you get all three middle harpy camps which can be highly contested in the Jungle due to them being the biggest sources of in Jungle XP relatively speaking, for instance I'll be ~3-5 levels behind our Mid Lane, ~1-2 behind our Left/Bot Laners, and 2-3 Behind our Right/Top Lane, and most of my levels in a match end up coming from Gank kills or minions rather then the Jungle itself due to the difference in XP between one Player Kill, a Wave Clear or the Jungle Camps.
But at the end of the day with League's Jungle I don't think I'd change much if anything while with Smite, I'd honestly be tempted to rework the entire jungle, as it just isn't satisfying or efficient to play, and outside of the odd Gank, I feel like I have very little to no impact on the game, unlike if I were playing as say Fiddlesticks in League where I have the potential to sway the course of an entire fight in my team's favour, where as if I'm playing say Fenrir, Awilix or Set at most I get the odd pick every now and again that ultimately doesn't change much since if I of all people am getting picks then my team's typically already in a winning position.
But I'm by no means someone who plays MOBAs competitively however so it'd be safe to take what I say with a fair amount of salt.
Personally i have the mind set of if somethings hard its hard for a reason. I dont think the jg needs to be dumbed down when the information is out there but ppl dont bother looking. Like i feel most players would rather look for an hour long video teaching u how to aa cancel properly on riven or something than to watch a 10 minute video of how to properly go thru ur first clear.
I feel like the first things Riot needs to do to "fix" jungle is settle on one version of it. It's such an impossible role to balance because unlike the lanes, it can change overnight, as seen by the recent patch changes.
Biggest suggstion to make the jungle more beginer friendly is to make it more risky and not worth it to go into the enemy jungle early as many junglers can be rendered almost useless if they get counterjungled, also raptors and krugs deal way too much damage
Honestly I preferred when you had to buy an item for upgraded Smite. It gave junglers a "power limiter" of sorts that stopped them from getting out of hand. I would like a return to that system but perhaps have it where that item isn't 100% necessary, and you can either choose between rushing combat stats or getting combat smite. I know that personally I never have much use for my upgraded Smite as someone like Vi in the early game but I had to rush Warrior's Enchant for the damage and CDR. Inversely I really dislike the new smite item as someone like Kayn because I honestly don't use Smite much to clear and would rather just powerfarm and rush my Smite item to have it for ganking instead of being forced to waste time Smiting whenever it comes off cooldown.
As a jungler, i just hate how most players from other roles often stay outside or the other side of the dragon/rh/baron pit when contesting the objective instead of pushing inside the pit while enemy team takes the aggro. This even happens in high elo.
I believe riot needs to make jungle less reliant on the success of laners, in mid to high elo you can essentially choose a laner to make win but having played in bronze for quite a bit I can say that when your laners lose, it does not matter if you gank them 5 times and give them all the kills, you can drop them two heralds, they will still throw through any means possible, thus I belive that if riot makes jungle less reliant on the success of your laners they could decrease the overall power of junglers because it would allow for junglers to be buy and large self-sufficient, not needing laners to have good lane states or prio, or even fighting without laners rotating at all (which happens alot in bronze, and is often a point of contention for the jungler whos mid lane had prio, and they refused to rotate resulting in him dying.) basically i think they could tune down the solo carry potential of jungle if they overall decreased the influence laners have on junglers and vice versa, how would they do this? I can't really think of a way but honestly, this vague solution is the best I can think of.
Probably the easiest step towards the middle ground would be to bring back extra wards for jungle (see Jankos's comments here: ruclips.net/video/zmuRmbUYAbw/видео.html ).
It has been too much a case of the Riot devs wanting their cake and eating it too:
1. They want to play to the LPL's love of the "fiesta in the dark" so they reduced wards and ward lifespans (which made it harder for the utility junglers).
2. They want to play to increase "interactivity" so they put a ton of xp on scuttles - which messed up the farm junglers.
3. They wanted to cut back on ganks and camping so they on one hand increased xp splitting (hurting botlane at the same time) - yet now they bring in extra catch-up on camps.
And it goes on. There is just no real plan for the jungle role.