The scene that always sticks in my mind from this film is the bit where he starts walking the opposite way around the room, while the other prisoners start to freak out and try to force him to conform to walking in the "correct" direction.
It’s very much of its time, (you are just catching up) and yes, it’s a great soundtrack, but that’s not what this video is about, please stay on topic.
When you say "the actual story" I'm guessing you're referring to the book, which I think is amazing. Movie is good (hard not to be good when you have actors like Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman) but to me it was a letdown when compared to the book.
I've never understood why they went with that ending, when what actually happened (at least according to Hayes) was such a story in an of itself. Billy got himself transferred to a minimum security prison work island, which in the book does sound very cushy, One night he stole a rowing boat, crossed open sea to the mainland, made it to the border, then had to cross a no-man's between two hostile nations, nearly getting shot by a Greek soldier when he reached the other side of the river. But I suppose it would confuse the whole theme of the film?
Alan Parker once said he and Stone chose the mental prison setting mainly because of the claustrophobic and mentally turbulent setting suitable to the film's emotional journey. And when I first saw the film, I really did feel tension and gradual triumph of Billy's escape. Totally different to the real life version, but still really works.
@@moviearchaeologist9655 It does really work. Also think it ties it up nicely with the sadistic head guard getting his comeuppance, 'Hoist with his own petard (well coat hook)' no less.. Apparently Hamid 'the bear' was a right bastard too, he really did beat the children Infront of his own kids, just like in the film. According to Hayes in a interview, he'd beat this one prisoner and as he was hitting him he's saying stuff like, 'fuck your mother, fuck your father, fuck your sister' Now Turks are proud people, family wise especially, so the story goes this bloke years later, walks up to Hamid while he's having his morning coffee outside cafe not far from the prison. Pulls out a pistol and says, 'this is for my mother' *bang*, this is for my father *bang*........'
@@moviearchaeologist9655 Like you say, the film was all about an emotional journey, a sort of 'every man'/'all American kid', who made a stupid mistake, ended up basically in hell. (That's certainly what you get from the insane ward of the prison?) Makes you wonder though if another writer-director had got hold of the story.... Could have been a very different film? Probably a lot less profound/ moving...
As Pauline Kael put it: Who wants to defend the Turks? If Oliver Stone had tried to express his anger of Vietnam War, he just couldn't, as the end product became another US weapon. (US had had some problems with Turkey back then, so they used this film as a blaming campaign.) The problem with the film is that, it's so hateful against all of a nation. So hateful that it is wildly unrealistic in portraying Turks and Turkey by any means. So orientalist, so cliche...
When you say "hateful against all of a nation" what do you mean? Are you referring to Billy's rant in the court scene. To me it was always obvious, even seeing it as a kid, that the film was showing how Billy was being driven toward hatred by his suffering rather than the film telling us we have to hate Turkey.
@@collativelearning Hi Rob, thanks for your response. Yes I refer to that firstly, why would you invent such a line? Ok let's say it's to express the character's psychological state. But why is it so coarse and directed towards a singular point? You can make him say anything to express his state. He can curse the judge, the prison, the police etc... Or say something with more depth and elegance or creativity to it. After all you are writing it. And I don't get why we shouldn't care about the obvious meaning of the sentence, but should search for implied meanings? This isn't 2001 a space odyssey after all. Even so, it wouldn't mean the words themselves didn't mean their intended use, unless there is such a big metaphor or something cryptic connected to it. Is there? You can say the film does criticize that cursing of him, but it doesn't do such a thing that I could spot. And why would it? It's the film itself who invents that line. Think that a screenwriter makes a real person say "f. all jews" or "f. all blacks"... That would be such a scandal. And this is not about being politically correct. It should not be that easy to insult anyone yet a whole nation, for the dramatic effect and the box office. The other thing is Turkey is shown as a desperate place in which nothing good can grow. All the Turks are either evil or miserable people. This is not realistic. I don't know if I need to expand this, it looks pretty obvious why reality is not such. Such a place doesn't exist. However some SJW guys tries to believe it does: There are oppressors and others are victims and victims don't have any responsibility. Well I don't buy it. By the way in Turkey there are lots of novels about the prison life for the say last 80-90 years, as lots of leftist guys spent their lives in jails and wrote books reflecting on that. Some have seen lots of torture and even the gallows. What they tell if vastly difference what happens in the movie. There is always room for compassion, bravery, hope and growth. It's been a long one, hope you have a chance to read. Take care...
@@chucknailstone9274 When I watched the film previously, I always love it as a drama, even though I used to agree that it was harsh against Turkish people (I'm always of the belief that there are good and bad people in Turkey as with anywhere in the world). However, just yesterday after watching the video here, I started realising the accusations of the film being utterly hateful of Turkish people as a whole is likely a misinterpretation for the simple fact that all of the Turkish characters prominently presented are ONLY the kinds of nasty people we would naturally find in the prison setting anywhere on the globe, NOT the Turkish civilians or religious people (the kinds of people tourists including my sister and friends met in the real world who were said to be nice). Turkish civilians and religious people were only present as background extras at the beginning of the film and that's it. So I personally consider the film critical ONLY to the Turkish prison system. To the critics' credit, it can be said that the downplaying of the Turkish locals' presence in the film misled both critics and real audiences to believe the whole country is bad, but I would say critics were more at fault for generalising their assumptions that further spread the misinterpretation instead of specifying the limited prison context, which kind of comes off as wanting to avoid the awkward discussion of what the real Turkish prison system is really like in the details. On top of the reports of Turkish prison system infringing on human rights as Rob said, something else that made me lean more towards the notion that there is some truth of what is depicted in MIDNIGHT EXPRESS on some level is the videos posted over the years showing Turkish politicians physically fighting each other. Check out the one in 2016, it's raw, apparently that was all about proposed legislation to remove Turkish MPs' immunity from investigations of specific crimes, so them going at each others' throats for that really strike me as suspicious. And if they are THAT intolerant and aggressive to each other on live cameras, then what are the chances of the Turkish prison guards having done the same to its prisoners (and maybe other prison guards), especially off camera? As for the film's Billy Hayes shouting in anger of "I hate you, I hate your country", it's plain to see that he is becoming as nasty as his captors. Think about the black character in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD as a comparative point, that guy is very tearful in the courtroom scene for us to feel strong sympathy for him. Imagine if the black character behaves like Billy Hayes and screams in anger of hating white people, that would make him sound just as nasty as the white racists. So I don't see the angry speech in MIDNIGHT EXPRESS as promoting hatred of Turkey. If the filmmakers wanted to, it would've consistently presented Billy Hayes as a helpless victim, not a raging one who later bites a tongue out. And yet the angry speech feels emotionally honest to me, despite the inaccuracy. Oh, and as for the "leftist guys" writing books of their experiences, I haven't read up on those (you haven't specified), but you know writer Oliver Stone considers himself Left Wing. The film includes a Left vs Right wing metaphor of prisoners going in right circle movements around a pillar, only for Billy to go the Left in rebellion (which a nutcase character referred to as Communist). And, get this, the beginning of the film includes an American newspaper clipping of Nixon promoting capital punishment (he was already disgraced in 1978 when the film was made), and a news story of American police officers shooting students in Kent. Total proof that the film wasn't just about prisons and police brutality in Turkey. Sorry for the long comment here, but I do think accusations of racism is a big misunderstanding of MIDNIGHT EXPRESS that needs to be fully addressed. I did initially believe that myself only to change my mind recently. Thanks for reading, take care...
@@moviearchaeologist9655 Thank you for your response. Don't get me wrong but all these views in the favor of the movie skip the fact that the movie itself was produced as a way of taking revenge from Turkey by the US, because of the Cyprus issue. And the film has been very successful in that regard as Turkey lost its majority of touristic income in the following years. There are not tons of movies made in Hollywood about Turkey, there is maybe not even a handful of them. So it's not like there were different viewpoints and this one. There was only this one for the general audience for a real long time. So this can not be considered in the context of freedom of speech, this is propaganda. It may not be racist, but sure it is an orientalist movie. The way Turkey depicted looks so miserable. And so cliche especially with the bad characters, they are so superficial in screenwriting terms. What you probably don't know is 2 years after the movie is made, US perpetrated a military coup in Turkey and it was the worst time ever for the political prisoners. Lots of torture and gallows too. It is the US who transformed our prisons into their worst shape. Guess how many Hollywood movies have been made on this topic? None. I'm not naive to expect such a thing from them, but I'm trying to show the way the movies were made. The motive behind the production... So when a major Hollywood studio from US tries to preach me about my country's problems in such a degrading manner, it is clear that it is inimical in the motive. Maybe you don't know that the reason Billy Hayes had 30 years, was because of the US government's pressure on Turkish government for their policy of war on drugs. So no US citizen could dare to bring some hashish back into the States. Lots of clashing ideas about how he escaped, probably it was a mini intelligence agency operation. There was no way for him to escape by himself and go to the border unnoticed. Then he crosses the border... Really? He was probably let go by Turkish government in accordance with the US government. And just a side note, maybe some western people might think that Turkey was or is an uncivilized country so they can't understand why Turks are so upset about the movie. It would be their ignorance, but I'm not sure on this one. Another thing is there are some rare movies like this one, which crushes the souls of the audience, because it is so saddening and depressive. But it's a substantial emotional experience after all, people just cling to it even years after watching. Maybe those people don't like the fact that the movie that manipulated their emotions was a politically motivated propaganda piece. Thus maybe they just don't like the possibility that they were fooled big time by the US government? Thank you for your time.
@@chucknailstone9274 Haha, the guy knows he is about to receive a life sentence for a minor drug crime. This means permanent separation from family, girlfriend and decades of misery if he lives that long. He's not going to speak with eloquence and creativity in response to that lol. He resorts to the most base, crass, offensive, hateful things he can think of in the moment because he wants to offend the judges who are about to completely destroy his life. He wants to make them feel as bad as he can for what they are about to do to him. Calling them pigs and what he says about their kids was so OTT it's obvious the film isn't telling us we should feel that way. I saw the film when I was about 9 years old and understood that framing. Why is the "scandal" of offensive language you refer to so bad? Do you prefer movies that pretend people don't say such things toward people they perceive as their oppressors? And yes there have been plenty of movies past and present that contain such dialogue. I really think you've missed the whole point of both the movie and this video. Shame. The movie is about prison injustices the world over. If you choose to view it as an attack on Turkey then you ruin it for yourself imo. Thanks for the discussion.
In his best days, Oliver Stone excelled at pushing the bounds of poetic license. In regard to the films based on true events that Stone wrote/directed, the key to appreciating them is to watch them as works of art rather than as reliable representations of what actually happened. The guy wasn't about to let the facts get in the way of telling the story he wanted to tell. But it worked! Despite being fairly wacky on a historical level, "JFK" is a hell of a movie. "The Doors" is likewise enjoyable even if it frequently stretches the truth (for instance, Stone created the peyote scene in the desert out of whole cloth; it didn't truly happen, yet the scene is so great that its lack of veracity ought be forgiven). You just have to embrace Stone as an artist while rejecting him as a historian.
So basically you are describing a propaganda director, one who won't allow any facts to get in the way of his political messages, aptly seen in this film.
@@billjoe39 Some argue that ALL movies are propaganda of one form one or another. At least with Oliver Stone, there's not much of an attempt to hide that. It's fine if people dislike his films for their historical inaccuracies and often extreme bias. I just think they're ignoring Stone's superb artistry as a director (an inconsistent artistry that falls short in many of his films, I'll add; he has certainly directed some awful duds, in addition to a handful of masterpieces).
@@wjkathman Extreme bias? What film does not have a bias.....also I get it you imply films, that don't directly follow Washington's political playbook, display 'extreme bias'. Let's face it, Hollywood is a propaganda machine, and ollie was chosen to play the 'nasty' liberal, alongside his conservative' counterparts like john milius.
@@wjkathmangotta wonder if you would extend the same courtesy to Leni Riefenstahl. She was artistically as gifted as Stone, if not more so. Just like Stone, she chose to use her gifts for propaganda. Or is kissing putin's ass more palatable for an artist than glorifying Hitler?
I always enjoy your work Rob, it is refreshing to listen to and watch, a sober, calm and opinionated (in the best possible way, naturally) take on films I like. A really close friend of mine between the ages of 11 and 25 or so, was a total film but, buff, and I was always impressed by how he would point things out that seem incredibly obvious once you know. I could kind of do a similar thing with a poem maybe, but most of the time a film just washes over me, and I often find myself completely manipulated (usually emotionally, I mean I cry when I see the new John Lewis Christmas ad each year 😥🙄
I both saw the film then later read the book. The film has little resemblance to Hayes' own words in his book. Apparently he was mortified with how the Turkish were represented in the film. I'm really not surprised either! Stone sort of treated the film as a political platform in the screenplay. The "I hate your nation" speech in court was completely fabricated, Hayes actually spoke of forgiveness to the judge when his sentence was increased. The ending of the film was horseshit too since Hayes bribed a guard then got a boat to freedom. No attempted sodomy, no guard's uniform etc. Hayes was blamed by the Turkish people for the representation even though he denounced the film. Another great video Rob thanks.
There are pics of Billy Hayes on set, proud of the project. My question is why did he not speak out against it back then? Maybe the book ales boost had something to do with it.
The most profoundest biographies -- it isn't just a biography of the person in question, but also a reflection of the person who tells their story. For this reason, I loved 'A Beautiful Mind' even though the real John Nash said of it: "I liked it a lot. But it wasn't me." And in Midnight Express, you cannot deny the passion Oliver Stone puts in the mere tale of Billy being trapped in Turkey. If a subjective bias is inevitable when it comes to a real life story, it is better to leverage it for all its worth to convey truths you deeply feel -- in contrast with the so-called objective documentary telling which is really a supercilious perch to stand upon.
The 'passion' that oliver stone puts in this movie? You mean, those grotesque stereotypes of every local, prisoner or keeper included , perhaps. All roles portrayed by non Turkish actors, incidentally, including an Isreali 'soldier' portraying the guard who almost assaults Billy near the end. All this in keeping with the strong anti arab msm portrayals in the 70's, and onwards. This here by 'liberal' director stone, who also deems fit to post photos of himself supposedly fighting in vietnam,.
I love Midnight Express. Alan Parker was a master filmmaker. Yes probably it's true story element was 100%. I know Oliver Stone used his experience of going to prison for drugs in the 1970s. The real Billy Hayes had been dealing with hashish in other countries before he got caught. He wasn't as innocent compare to Brad Davis portrayal of Billy Hayes in the film.
it's interesting to think about how, even though I haven't seen MIDNIGHT EXPRESS in about 20 years and have forgotten most of the details, it does remain tremendously influential as every time I think of being imprisoned in a foreign country I immediately picture eking out an existence in a squalid hellhole as it depicts. It might also be one of the first prison movies to show the experience as utterly horrific, transforming a normal man into a monster and then into a wreck of a survivor barely clinging onto his humanity. Compare this with something like I WAS A FUGITIVE FROM A CHAIN GANG or COOL HAND LUKE and it really is a whole different experience. It's like the difference between the first and last halves of UNCLE TOM'S CABIN.
@@markpage9886 no its the second biggest lie. Al Gore's "documentary " an inconvenient truth is the biggest lie on film. bowling for columbine being 3rd
An interesting take on Oliver Stone's powerful line Billy Hayes gives, "What's legal today is suddenly illegal tomorrow." - Currently the United States is considering a ban on natural gas stoves, which have been perfectly legal for decades, "because some society says it's so." On the other side, "what's illegal yesterday is suddenly legal." - As of 2023, 21 of the 50 states in the United States now have legal recreational Marijuana, "because everybody's doing it, and you can't put everybody in jail."
Did that proposal on gas stoves come from one of the politicians from here in California? I love my state but we definitely lead the country in ridiculous bans and restrictions. Well, probably a tie with New York.
@Coinraker It's actually coming from the Consumer Product Safety Commission, but it would not surprise me in the least if California and New York politicians jumped right away on the "yes we need to ban gas stoves!" bandwagon.
the only thing that really bothers me about the changes is that they completely changed how he escaped, which was so much more powerful in real life, so I don't really get why they had this whole cliche "wear the guard's uniform and walk out the front gate". The real escape is a lot more cinematic and it also offers opportunities for interesting thematic exploration
He was fantastic, really, really engaging performance he gave. Emotionally charged, but his performance never felt overdramatic or forced. Sad he died young.
@@theinnerlight8016 well energy (spirit) is never destroyed, just changed. we are animated by spirit. C'mon, you think this realm is all there is in the Universe?
Oliver Stone is an intellectual and a superb writer whose body of work will still hold up well decades from now. Midnight Express is a brilliantly filmed movie though.
Hayes was from North Babylon, NY, the same Long Island town I lived in during his ordeal. I remember the multi part series that the Long Island newspaper Newsday did on William Hayes. Timing was everything for him, if he had been arrested ten years before or ten years later, his story wouldn't have been news. He had a lot of support from many people who, by that time, had softened their opinions about the counterculture. In a way, he was lucky.
Honestly, all the shit this movie has taken over the years over claims of racism and xenophobia, is one of those controversies I never felt really held much water. Make no mistake, any movie I feel has a blatantly racist agenda, I'll absolutely acknowledge, regardless of any personal entertainment I get from it. I love me some Westerns, but simultaneously, I have no qualms admitting that as a genre, they've historically glorified the slaughtering of non-white people. So belive me when I say, Midnight express is one of those instances where I don't personally feel it's deserved. Full disclosure, I'm an American, I can't have the perspective of a Turkish person, and theirfore have no right to say they're wrong to be offended. I can only go on my own perspective. With that said, I just don't see who in their right mind would interpret this movie as an indictment against ALL Turkish people and their culture. It's a story that takes place in a prison, and it doesn't matter what country the jail is in, any prison you can go to is going to contain some of the most depraved and evil human beings imaginable, both as prisoners and employees sadly, this is just the world we live in and it can't always be portrayed in a bright, positive light. As for the infamous scene in the courtroom, my attitude on that has always been something along the lines of so fucking what? He's just one individual, and human nature being what it is, of course he's going to develop a resentment against the people who put him through the hell he's endured. I'm not saying that the feelings of hatred expressed in that scene are morraly OK or anything, but they are realistic to the circumstances. I just say this because I've always found Midnight express to be a genuinely great movie, not a perfect movie, but great nevertheless and it's dismayed me over the years, how much it's reputation has been tarnished over controversies that often really don't seem waranted.
Yes! And as a viewer, the Midnight Express movie never changed my perception of Turkey consisting of good and bad people as with anywhere else on the planet. The Turkish parliament fights seen on RUclips made me distrusting of the Turkish government, though.
Well i don't see anybody complain on other movies that didn't follow the true Story , like The Wolf of wall Street , if our standard for "good movies" is gonna be the word "acurrate " well let's trow all the great classics of "based on a true story " you'll not have a great time watching this kinds of movies, top notch movie...
"Through many a dark hour I've been thinkin' about this That Jesus Christ was Betrayed by a kiss But I can't think for you You'll have to decide Whether Judas Iscariot Had God on his side. So now as I'm leavin' I'm weary as Hell The confusion I'm feelin' Ain't no tongue can tell The words fill my head And fall to the floor That if God's on our side He'll stop the next war." Bob Dylan
Have you ever seen Midnight Cowboy, Rob? I watched it recently for the first time without very high expectations and it may now be one of my favourite films.
Completely factual or not, Midnight Express was an emotional gut-punch. I have always had a problem with the "Based on a true story" concept of movie authorship. It is such a broad and poorly defined concept, which provides us with drivel like "The Amityville Horror". Somebody reports hearing a noise in their house at night, which gets translated to angry, murderous ghosts and bleeding walls. Another great "true" prison movie is "Papillon" with Steve McQueen. Now I wonder how much that was embellished.
@@rabudman Thanks, but I'm not going to watch 2 talking heads yammer about this nonsense for an hour and half. I read the Wikipedia article, which is plenty. The story has no more validity than the multitude of alien abduction stories that have spawned movies of their own. People latch on to a compelling story of real and natural circumstances, then create their own fantastical drama around it to sell to the highest bidder. It's a practice as old as the Bible.
Under the silver lake is very confusing. But I've never tried to understand a movie as much this one. It has codes eyes wide shut,the big laboskie, many code in the movie, I still can't make any sense of it. I hope you will watch it and give your take.
I remember my washout uncle was babysitting me one day when midnight express came on. This was in Australia in 97 or 98 and I was about nine years old. He called my mother and asked a question that would change my life forever: "is it okay if Ben watches Midnight Express?" and my mother gave the possibly even more life-changing and perhaps irresponsible answer: "sure." my uncle and I sat there while I grew more and more horrified and he got more and more stoned. I don't know if any piece of art has moved me more, planting the seeds for everything from my politics to my phobias to my tolerance for violence in film. Yesterday Turkiye was hit by a series of massive devastating earthquakes and my first thought wasn't of humanitarian suffering, it was "that's the backwards Turkish prison guys" because my perception of Turkey even after twenty odd years and twenty odd Anzac services is still informed by this brutal movie that I was exposed to as a kid.
Rob Ager, you seem to have missed a glaring paradox in the film. Billy Hayes was sentenced to five years for possession then a further 30 years for smuggling a substance that was tacitly permitted within the walls of Sagmalcilar Prison in Istanbul. The film depicts prison guards ostensibly allowing Rifki to import and sell drugs (in exchange for kickbacks and services rendered ratting out other inmates). It appears that the guards also turned a blind eye to the consumption of drugs by Rifki's customers such as Max. Where does the historical truth lie? Max, Rifki and Hamidou were largely fictional characters, but what typically happened in the real-life 1970's Turkish penal system? did a double standard exist whereby drug possession and public drug use were harshly penalized by the Turkish courts yet condoned within the Turkish prison system?
People go to these countries and commit crimes knowing they're illegal and knowing how bad the prison systems in these countries are and how severe the punishments can be. To criticise the film over its depiction of crimes and abuses of power that occur in every prison in the world over fears for racism or mischaracterisation I feel misses the point entirely. The film goes out of its way to make you feel sorry for the protaganist. It's the story ignorant arrogant young westerner who smashes their lives against the legal rocks of a foreign land where there is no safety net and reality bites visciously hard, and the truth is that that the world isn't some playground for western hippy liberals to skip through in a cloud of weed smoke, and that however deeply you may despise the policies of your homeland there are many places in the world that are far worse. No one criticises shawshank for its portrayal of the prison system, yet because this film is set in turkey somehow it's a problem. This is a brilliant film and first seeing it as a kid I was shocked by its raw portrayal of prison life and the injustice of the legal system. Now I'm older I see a stupid young rich kid whose naivety nearly cost him is life.
Parker is a hidden gem. The Road to Wellville is a criminally underrated comedy. It seems people in the US have been to given to Kellogg's propaganda and mythmaking efforts to understand how well the film captures the Calvinism of Michigan, and the zaniness of tail end of victorianisms sexuality as well as doing a good job of illustrating the zeal of grifters in their religious showman as businessman. We still see this personality in american business' influence on politics. Snake oil salesmen.
Whenever someone complains about the historical accuracy of a movie, I always say "If you want historical accuracy, don't go to the movies." For example, the real Bonnie and Clyde weren't as good looking as Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty.
It is funny how Ager's right leaning politics influence his interpretation. Stone isn't commenting on how well-meaning people get incarcerated and have there lives ruined for minor crimes. It's that draconian justice is bad. It seems some people don't mind brutality in prisons, as long as it's the "really bad" criminals that are locked up. I don't mind that Ager is so conservative cuz his analyses are so interesting... but def have to watch out for those biases.
If you want to understand the underlying reason of strong anti-Turkish sentiment in the movie (much stronger than Hayes’s book), you gotta understand Turkey’s image in US media and public in late 70’s and for this, you gotta understand the deteriorating relationship between Turkey and USA during 60’s and 70’s (Cyprus crisis in 63, 69 and 74; Turkey’s rejection to stop its opium poppy production, finally resulting in US sanctions against Turkey). This all ended of course after 1980 fascist military coup in Turkey which accepted all US terms and made the country US’s biggest ally in the region.
I watched this movie along with Missing, The China Syndrome, and Last Deer Hunter. The funny thing about this movie was the scene with the girlfriend exposing herself to billy through the phonebooth. There's a comedy spoof of it that I just now understand.
Stone is 50/50. 50 percent of the time his work is pretty good, the other 50 percent of the time he is a hack that needs some one to keep him in line. Milus fixing his Conan script and how he ruined Tarantino's Natural Born Killers are two good examples of how he veers out into hackery.
@@transmissionggb2820 Liking Lynch has nothing to do with anything, as many extremely good filmmakers, far better than Stone, are also big Lynch fans. And why wouldn't they be, as he's maybe the second best director who ever lived. I personally don't like Natural Born Killers because it's just not very well made. Horribly acted by all except Harrelson and I also thought the script was not very good. I don't see any of Lynch in that film at all.
Need to say this here as I’m already seeing this in the comments and I anticipate this continuing to pop up. The idea that the movie misrepresents Turkey and even promotes hatred of the entire Turkish country and culture. I can understand that viewpoint, but I think it’s a misunderstanding caused by the simple fact that the story only prominently shows us Turkish characters who are either police officers, prison guards, bureaucrats, or prisoners, but NEVER civilians, priests or anyone outside the prison setting, they are only shown as background extras in the beginning of the film and that’s it. I know people who told me of visiting Turkey and saying about the nice locals (my brother in law my sister married is Turkish and I like him), but of course they never visited the prisons consisting of people who would undoubtedly be of a different mindset of the average Turkish civilian, and MIDNIGHT EXPRESS focuses its story on the prison setting, not the entire Turkish culture. In the prison setting (anywhere on the globe), hardly anyone would naturally be presented in a very innocent light even in movies, and that includes the American characters like Billy Hayes who lashes out over time and said some nasty things in the Turkish courtroom about wanting to “f*** your kids because they’re pigs!” I don’t believe Oliver Stone put that in to promote hatred or violence against Turkish people, I think that scene of Hayes’ anger speaks to the harsh truth of how prison life or just difficulties of the legal system can really upset and anger people that they can become just as nasty as their perceived opponents. IT IS NOT PROMOTING HATRED OF THE ENTIRE TURKISH COUNTRY, although it certainly criticises the Turkish prison system just as the British movie SCUM does with the corruption and brutality of British youth borstals. And on Oliver Stone’s statement that his MIDNIGHT EXPRESS story represents the cruelty of the prison systems all over, not just Turkey’s, I believe he meant it. Looking at clips of the film itself just now, there is an American newspaper shown early on which mentions of Nixon calling for capital punishment (remember, the film was made in 1978, so Nixon was already looked down upon for Watergate, and Oliver Stone described himself as a Left Winger which normally looks down on capital punishment). The newspaper also shows “Manson Dives at Judge with Sharp Pencil”, and “Student Violence, Guard Fire at Kent Condemned in Report”. Cruelty and police injustice present in America too. Think of it this way, we watch many war movies and play war video games where we are typically shown Nazis as the only German people present in the stories, but (at least these days) we do not automatically assume the Nazis represented ALL Germans in the country. And lastly on Turkey’s government itself, although I heard people say the locals are nice and liking their holidays there as tourists, I was also told about the strict conscription laws in Turkey which my Turkish brother-in-law personally think is harsh. I’ve also seen video footage of Turkish politicians physically fighting each other in their parliament over the years, the worst one in 2016. These politicians are THAT openly intolerant and aggressive to each other, this alone gives more plausibility to the idea of their prison system being nasty. On top of this, my sister told me that the Turkish language is very difficult to learn and use, so much that she and my brother in law decided to converse mainly in Spanish! That fits nicely with the language barrier problem in the movie. MIDNIGHT EXPRESS is a great movie which is inaccurate but also artistically misunderstood, and I do agree its artistic reputation needs to be restored.
Bullshit, this shitty movie is nothing more than American propaganda and only reason it aired is American's lust for opium. Those hypocritical westerners always do shameless things like that.
Although I generally agree with the themes of the film, I do have a problem with films which purport to be true but obviously deviate from the true story, another classic example is "Braveheart" which to me, as a qualified historian, is unwatchable because of the historical inaccuracies, but "Midnight Express" is obviously a good film in it's own right if you ignore the inaccuracies.
Elephant Man and The Untouchables are other great movies that are very inaccurate to the original historical contexts, but still powerful and emotionally consistent regardless.
I never liked Braveheart personally. Not for historical reasons. I just wasn't interested in the story. Midnight Express comes into its own when viewed as a general representation of court and prison injustices all over the world. To me the Billy Hayes story was just a springboard used to tell a more important universal story about societal cruelty.
As young teen, watching on HBO, it was clear what the main character was doing in the clink. Clear. We watched over and over, as it was captivating and chilling.
14:00 “… on the other hand…” actually applies perfectly to TODAY’s Hollywood Film, Books and TV that oppressively push political Agendas down the throats of consumers at the cost of beloved franchises and lifelong fans.
@@coinraker6497 It's pretty much spot on but many details of Garrison's investigation have been altered for dramatic purposes, e.g. some characters (such as Kevin Bacon's, Michael Rooker's and Donald Sutherland's) are composites of actual people. In Any case, certain moments in the film are clearly not meant to be 'historically accurate' but are presented as speculation by characters. It's closer to historical reality than most Hollywood 'true story' accounts.
Great film but after reading the book I'm still disappointed with the movies ending compared to the real life escape. Will you be doing any videos breaking down the opening scene Rob? It's so suspenseful and beautifully done
12:40 I saw this when I was 13... and yes, that courtroom dialog definitely hit me as well. I agree with the overall assessment here. I'm not convinced an updated disclaimer is *required*, but wouldn't find it objectionable.
I thought Midnight Express was too harsh on the Turkish people, especially considering Billy Hays had smuggled drugs many times before he was finally caught.
I knew Oliver Stone wanted the big battle at the end which was just all wrong for this movie. I love Alan Parker movies, this and angel heart sit proudly in my video collection.
Just re-watched Angel Heart the other day.... Fantastic film. And not only do I find it underappreciated, but I think it's actually more complex and deeper than it is given credit for.
I read the book many years ago and even THAT had to deviate from certain points of reality for political reasons. It's a shame Brad Davis didn't go on to more gritty roles such as this, you'd think directors would be falling all over themselves to hire him but much like Jessica Walter after her unforgettable psychotic part in Play Misty For Me...she only ended up in mundane TV films and episodes of Columbo ever since.
Thank you for making this. Cognitive dissonance cuts both ways, it cuts for things one adores, loves, and admires. And it also cuts for things one hates, despises, and dislikes. People will cling to ideals that suit their desired perceptions in life. And hating Turkiye is a collective stimulus that people ceremoniously cling on to with media such as this film. William "Billy" Hayes, the actual writer of the book on which this movie is based, has made it abundantly clear in many instances that this movie is a biased interpretation of his story. It is PROPAGANDA according to William "Billy" Hayes, it is in writing, verbatim. But regardless of this fact, people still cling on to this film as a justification for their biased political views. And Oliver Stone is such a hit-or-miss guy, to begin with. Yea we all admire him for doing the most mainstream open conspiracy movie "JFK". But he is also responsible for the movie "World Trade Center" featuring Nicholas Cage. Presenting that fateful day just like the 911 Commission depicted it. For the love of the cosmos imagine making a movie mocking the Warren Commission and later in life making a movie depicting and not judging the 911 Commission. Seriously... Anyway, thank you for your videos. I like your input on many media.
I think Billy Hayes is a bit of a hypocrite on this subject. He was happy to go along with the making of the film. He was there on set. He knew what was being made. And years later he flips his position. So does this mean he was a propagandist too before he flipped? Or was he just in it for the cash? And if he was willing to go along with the film's deviations to begin with then how honest was his book in the first place? I haven't read it but a lot of it will just be his word with no one to prove otherwise. Regarding Oliver Stone's overall filmography, there are films whose messages I agree and disagree with. The guy has made so much political content that I don't think anyone would agree with it all. It's also clear his politics have altered from time to time as anyone's does. So my view is to take each film primarily on its own merits. You can claim he hates Turkey as many do (short sighted view imo), but you can also watch Platoon and claim he hates the US.
@@collativelearning @Collative Learning I don't think anybody that was a part of any production, or a set, knows how the final cut of their movie would be unless they are at the very top of the compartmentalization chain. The footage that was shot could be edited in a myriad of ways with sound and effects, with the finished movie being drastically different than what people thought it would be during the set. I was a part of a movie production and an actress walked out of the premiere of the movie while causing a scene because the director lied to her, and used shots she promised not to use. The director got away with it because she was a female as well. I can't imagine how big the ruckus and blowback would be if the director was a male and did the same thing but that is a whole other tangent. And tragically you misinterpreted my comment. I never stated that Oliver Stone hates a specific nation. But I did state that "people" cling on to certain media such as this movie to justify their biased political views. It is like willingly going into an echo chamber to rile yourself up with purpose. Think about it as two minutes of hate segment from 1984. And Platoon is a fictional movie with fictional characters, to begin with. The setting is real and historical but the story is pure fiction. None of those characters exist. On the contrary Midnight Express is a true story penned by a person that went through it. The two scripts are drastically different and to compare them is asinine in this instance. In my humble opinion.
@@collativelearning P.S. And mentioning hypocrisy is a bit reaching when the subject matter is Oliver Stone. He can make Midnight Express but I don't think he even noticed the irony in the recent debacle with Brittney Griner in Russia, the WNBA player arrested and incarcerated for the same reason William Hayes was incarcerated for. She was sent to an artic gulag that was probably worse than the fictional prison depicted in Midnight Express. But of course, the country in question is a favorite of Oliver Stone(him being one of the few American names to interview Putin ever). And she was also traded out for an arms dealer at the end but I wonder if the irony ever dawns on the great Oliver Stone at his current age.
@@emreus1 It's difficult to say how much he knew during production. Did he get to read the script? What scenes were being shot? His "objections" to the film didn't occur on public record until 1999 (two decades after release) to my knowledge. Have a watch of this 1978 interview. He has already seen the movie and speaks approvingly of it. ruclips.net/video/XRnP5hI26_8/видео.html I've been involved in film shoots too in various roles including as director, so yeah I'm familiar that actors sometimes are annoyed at a final cut. But again, Hayes approved the movie upon release. I wouldn't call it "tragic" if I misinterpreted your statement - bit over dramatic there nudge nudge ;) So you're not saying Stone was hateful to the Turks? In that case don't blame the movie. Blame the viewer who brings that opinion to the experience. I'm not convinced that many people view it like that anyway. My impression is most people view the Turkey setting as largely incidental. It could have been set in many different historical oppression contexts, but no matter which one was chosen, a viewer could claim bigotry toward said nation if they choose to interpret it as such. Consider this ... Billy's rant at the judge (which winds some people up when they think the film is approving his momentary reactive hatred for the nation whose court is about to give him a life sentence) starts with a statement about how laws "differ from time to time and place to place". He's referencing prison injustices everywhere. Even seeing the film as a kid that was clear to me. He bites a guy's tongue out but no one is saying the film approves that behaviour generally. The movie is showing how his traumas are turning him into a person full of rage and hate. On your last point about Platoon, I did come across one interview where Stone described Sgt Barnes as being based on a real officer. Just because he changed the name doesn't change the source. And it's not "pure fiction". The Vietnam War was real. A lot of the events in the film are based on Stone's actual experience of what it was like to serve in those circumstances. He wanted to show people what it was actually like to be there. Thanks for your thoughts anyway :)
Rob, as always, you manage to find more than other "critics" can be bothered to explore. On a similar note, have you caught that 2014 flick, WHIPLASH? Just like how you say Stone projected his own personal feelings and trauma about the war in Vietnam into Midnight Express, this flick, Whiplash, has strong similarities on the narrative level. This will take a while to explain, so bear with me everybody. In it, a kid, desperate for approval from a music conservatory's studio band's sadistic (and arguably sociopathic) music director, basically allows his mind turn to mush in his pursuit of being one of the "greats". On a deep, psychological level it is absolutely spot-on in exploring the psychology of the cycle of abuse and hatred and I'd even argue, what "social justice" govts i.e. Communist, Fascist, leftist etc. are in practice as personified by the underhanded actions, gaslighting and psychological manipulation the band director, Fletcher, dishes out on his students. Kind of similar to the whole "It's for your own good" abuser mentality when in reality, it's all for their own personal gain and not others. Now as a musician myself, the movie is DANGEROUSLY AND GROSSLY INACCURATE in portraying what it means to be a musician, never mind a Jazz musician or what music overall is about. The director claims that it was based on his own traumas going to music school as a kid but, like I said, the movie sends a very dangerous precedent that will give musicians and music overall a very bad image for years to come. That is the one part of the movie that really BOILS MY BLOOD. Plus being ex-Army myself, my BLOOD BOILS EVEN MORE knowing that ppl watching this movie will look at these studio band characters like they're in some "elite" special forces unit when they have ZERO idea what "ELITE" looks like. Ironically, the tactics of the music teacher in many ways, mirrors the same psychological tactics military leaders use to train their units or pit ppl against one another to stir everyone up into a hateful frenzy, especially before a possible combat operation. Kinda like Dirty Harry in that there's views in the flick ppl love to HATE but yet other views they can agree with, it's interesting to think of when put in that similar context to Midnight Express. Thoughts?
Watch the movie for yourself and come to your own conclusion as to whether it's great film making and / or propaganda. Note that SPEC-X S didn't provide a link to what he claims as well.
@@SPECREY You keep saying check Google, but I did and I find nothing you claim. Why don't you just provide the link rather than telling us to look it up? To me, that's a sign that it doesn't exist.
Hi Rob mate. Been following you for many years now. You've responded to me on the odd RUclips comment many moons ago but you might not remember. Appreciated the friendly interaction though. As I've said before...Despite our own personal political differences, your film analysis transcends political leaning in favour of our love of film making. You really don't go there unless the artist themself did. You're extremely open minded that way. Anyway... Since you did a wee bit of heavy shilling on this particular vid... Any chance of a link to your movie to purchase? Turn In Your Grave. I purchased it years ago online, God knows where now. A few houses and broadband providers and PCs ago... Fancied purchasing and viewing it again where you get the most kickback? Can't find it on your website atm. Certain parts seem to be down or getting upgraded. If it's available on Vimeo or something, perfect. Will buy it on the 10th. Promise. If you get all the kickback, perfect. Keep up the amazing film analysis, Rob. Long time, mostly silent, avid fan.
Thanks. No idea the political differences you refer, though personally I find I have political differences with everybody because I don't subscribe to any particular off the shelf ideology. As for Turn In Your Grave, it's still available on my site www.collativelearning.com/FILMS%20reviews%20BY%20ROB%20AGER.html
Never heard of "Turn in Your Grave" so looked it up on IMBD. Directed by Rob Ager, WOAH!!! 6.1 rating, not too bad. Searched for it on my ROKU, didn't show up. Shucks!
@@collativelearning only of those who claim to make movies based on historical fact. but stone is on another level. he is the george santos of filmmakers
Billy has already said that this movie is a fabrication. The cop who arrested him has an interview and he denied everything in the movie. This movie was a kind of revenge on the Turks after the Cyprus war. The only thing the movie can be praised for is its music, apart from that it is a racist movie that has nothing to do with reality. The funniest part is that this movie was awarded the Best adapted screenplay award by the academy.
Apparently learning and speaking Turkish is very difficult. My sister who is a very worldly person and learned different languages tried to learn Turkish with her Turkish husband, but it wasn't working so they proceed to communicate more in Spanish, lol
@@collativelearning I don't speak it either but I learned from Alan Parker's DVD commentary that many of the actors portraying the Turks either didn't know the language or weren't very fluent. The guard that inspects Billy Hayes's bag at the start of the movie is actually speaking Armenian I believe lol.
@@FrankieTeardrop1998 Actually, been thinking of it today, you know the amusing cliche in old war movies of Nazi characters having posh British accents or speak in English all the way through? Never broke the immersion for me in those movies. There is also the modern show Chernobyl which was okay, it had the English actors who portray real Russian and Ukrainian people with the actors' own English accents because the makers didn't want the show to come off as cliched due to any attempts to imitate the Russian accents. So if these filmmakers are doing it, I can't see why Midnight Express shouldn't be an exception of this liberty.
Dear Collative Learning, What's your opinion on Kanye West's mental health collapse? Is he faking all this or publicity, or his gone All Out Dixie (American South) Looney Tunes?
@@cashless1980 you know they had open jails until about a decade ago? I'm sure they aren't torturing folk in jail, but I was told of a few murders. Which isn't really that surprising in a jail.
@@curiositycloset2359 open jails.. murders in jail.. sounds like jails all over the world.. have you ever been in South American jails.. Asian.. or African jails.. even in the US.. they will rob and rape you..
Deceptive but genius marketing. And the makers of the TV show had the balls to carry on the "True story" tagline even after everyone knows the original film was fiction 🤣
Come on, Ager! This is the first time I am diametrically opposed to this video. I was young when this movie came out and heard the synopsis that he involved himself with drugs and thus was locked up. I didn't bother to watch the movie regardless of his plight in prison. Drugs were destroying the black community in the 80s, and as far i was confirmed, he deserved what he got. Also, you criticizing the Turkish prison system is a joke! Allow me to enlighten you, ALL PRISONS are tools of the dystopian governments. They do not exist to lock up "bad" people but to scare the hell out the middle class to pay taxes and follow the rules of the Elites. Men raping men and stabbing men in prison along with mental tortures by murderers, sodomites, rapists, and other vile human beings kept alive by the tax payers to feed, house, give medical and dental care, is just f madness while the poor are on the f streets. Prisons are in the West, especially the USA, a prison industrial complex that profits from quotas. No, I don't think drug users should be sent to jail, but that's why they are there for profit and bankrolling a bunch of beauracratic bottom-feeders. The argument that it's so inhumane to execute murderers, rapists, pedophiles, and kidnappers is f madness. Responsibility That's what's missing in society at all levels. Corporations and politicians blatantly disregard RESPONSIBILITY along with the rest of the citizens for the consequences of their actions. God Almighty stated: Life for life! Even in an accidental killing, the family of the victim had the right to go after the person who killed their relative and the only way that person can stay alive was to go to a sanctuary city and stay there until the High Priest died which could be lifetime or a mere short period of time. This was a means to ingrain into every person that LIFE is sacred!!!!!!! This is why society is collapsing as corruption spreads where people do not know what is right or wrong anymore. God Almighty stated to Israel to get rid of the evil in their land! This is why Israel was destroyed, which was a shadow picture of the world's fate that if evil is not eliminated, the world will collapse into utter annihilation as life is blatantly disregarded as being sacred. This is why China, an atheistic nation, can murder innocent people at will. Millions of people murdered by atheistic men and women. And if you cry out, religion also murdered millions and you are right because they were all cults, Judaism, which is not based on Torah, Islam, Christianity, even Buddhist resorting to violence as they did against Muslims. Israel was to be a model nation of executing murderers, pedophiles, rapists, kidnappers, and other such vile men and women who have forfeited their humanity. We are living in a dystopian world 🌎. We are in a prison. God allowed Jews to be enslaved in Egypt to show them that without the knowledge of Good and Evil and enforced by a holy and godly people, they would find themselves enslaved and murdered as well. This is why God gave HIS TORAH, to destroy evil-doers but the Jews have fallen like Satan. They failed to be our heroes and now, society is in chaos, praising evil as good and good as evil. Demoncrats wanting to murder unborn babies and hacking off your sons dic**. Praising perverse lifestyles today just as the Bible prophecied long ago. Look at the cities of the West, once glorious and marvelous; the pinnacle of human civilization and now over run by drugged out lost souls and violence everywhere.
Ah, here we go again. Another respondent who didn't watch the video or didn't really listen :) I stated in the video (and cited the writer and director's comments on this) that one of the themes in the film is that it's not just about the incidental Turkish prison setting. It's about prison injustices the world over, esp the ones Stone witnessed and experienced directly in the US. As for your claim to "enlighten" me that all prisons are tools of oppression, wrong. I'll enlighten you instead. Prisons can and do get used as tools of oppression, but all of the evil traits present in governments are also present in the population generally (after all governments are just collections of people to begin with). There are individuals and groups in the general population whose crimes against others not only justify, but demand, forced segregation from the population. In fact your own approval of Billy Hayes getting a life sentence for a very small amount of a drug that's nowhere near as deadly as the ones that actually "destroy communities" is a contradiction with your dismissal of the entire prison system as "oppressive". I agree Hayes was no angel, and I mentioned in the vid that he had smuggled multiple times and that I have doubts his own biography is completely honest.
Sounds like Stone injected his liberal worldview and ideology into the film, which is the typical thing you'd expect a Hollywood writer to do. Does it make it more dramatic? Sure - but more specifically it moves the viewer to relate to his viewpoint only by misrepresenting what was a true story. In other words, it's hacky.
You don't have to agree with the viewpoints to enjoy a movie. There are many movies and video games I still like even though I disagree with some of its viewpoints like various pro-military war movies and games. But I don't see Midnight Express as a liberal film considering its raw depiction of the Turkish prison system (which many people mistakenly took as the film hating the entire Turkish culture).
@@moviearchaeologist9655 I agree that you don't have to agree with the viewpoint to enjoy the movie. Midnight Express was very enjoyable, but it really diminishes the artistic vision and themes portrayed by the movie. What would actually be fresh in the context of Hollywood is depicting a country who's victimized by drug smuggling and portraying the authoritarian government morally combating the issue - in other words, the opposite of what this movie was going for.
See, you ruin it for yourself by attaching an ideological label such as "liberal". In what way is it "liberal" for a writer to want to make the audience aware of prison system abuses? They do happen. It's worldwide. Why would you disapprove of it being drawn attention to?
@@collativelearning That's a pretty easy question to answer. Liberals and conservatives have different ideas of how a prison system should work and ubiquitously liberals aim for leniency in regards to crime and punishment where conservatives are more likely to be in favor of harsher rules and deterrence. In other words, this movie paints a very subjective theme that is meant to condemn a foreign government for being more authoritarian (regardless if they have good reason to be or not). Oliver Stone insinuates that you will get raped by the guards (even if that didn't really happen). The point I'm making is that these artistic liberties taken for dramatic effect are predictable liberal tropes in the context of Hollywood. It's also a little disingenuous to pretend as if the film is exclusively about prison abuse. Where is the prison abuse taking place again? Obviously there is a lot more going on which ties it all together politically and I think you're smart enough to know that. You don't win awards or recognition in Hollywood for praising authoritarian or conservative governments, do you? We all know which way the wind blows.
@@GamerWordDotNet Thanks for the expansion. I still disagree with the over-simplistic labels. For example, I believe in capital punishment for the absolute worst crimes like serial murder, but I go in the lenient direction regarding free speech and I'd probably legalize some rec drugs even though I don't use them myself. So I'm both a Conservative and a Liberal at the same time? By dropping ideological (in other words dropping biased assumptions of universality) positions you free yourself up to take each situation on its own merits. I disagree with most of your descriptions of what the film insinuates. Imprisonment for life for a minor drug offense (not subjective, apparently this happened to the real Billy Hayes) being flat out wrong, I don't consider "subjective". That is the core injustice presented in the film and it was true. But as both Stone and Parker have explained, they viewed it as a universal statement against such imprisonment injustices everywhere. Stone even made that point in his Oscar reception for the script. To pass all that off as "liberal" or "conservative" or whatever other over-simplistic label you fancy, ignores the issue at hand. In the video I presented my theory that Stone was using the Hayes story to vent his Vietnam War experience frustration, with supporting evidence. In his script for Platoon, which was already written before he adapted Midnight Express, he doesn't blame a foreign government. He is critical of the US, though personally I consider that film a bit one-sided because the Viet Cong did terrible stuff to their own people. And Stone explains that in deviating from the real Hayes story he was expressing his frustrations with his own incarceration within the US penal system. So why do you consider Midnight Express to be about condemning only the Turkish government? You also claim the film tells the audience they will be raped by guards. Why would the audience assume that seeing one specific brutal guard character in one movie means that in a typical prison one gets raped by "the guards". Billy is in that prison for several years in the film and how many times is he raped? I ask again, have you watched the video? ... because you seem to be ignoring all the info presented in it :)
Dear Mr Rob Ager, I love your analysis but i'm going to have to diasgree with you on one point. The movie is racist and I think moe on account of Oliver Stone than alan Parker. Oliver Stone's movie 'Alexander' portrays the Pesians very badly. He has the Persian army with cmels, as if they're Arabs, and when you see the Persian soldiers with their beards your hear flies in the background- implying they are unwashed and dirty people. It's also racist because it omits facts like the fact that Persians employed Greek footsoldiers, as mercinaries but also as people angy at Alexander for conquering Greece. You can find this in the old 'Alexander the Great' movie, with Peter Kushing advising the Persian emperor on how best to fight Alexander. Oliver Stone also portrays Roxana in a bad way, like a wild jungle girl, played by an African American actress, when the girl was Central Asian. He portrays women badly in general in the movie, as temptresses and snakes, including Alexander's own mother played by Angelina Jolie as if she's a gypsy women with giant earings. When Alexander drinks the goblet of wine that seals his fate, you see his mother's image in it, with her hair looks like Medusa's.
You can not justify the appalling bigotry in this movie by pretending it is about criticizing Turkish prisons. There is nothing wrong with criticizing Turkey's prison system, and by the way most Americans who served prison time in Turkey refused a deal that would have had them serve in the US instead because they were more afraid of the American prison system-it is much more violent. What is awful is how an entire nations is deliberately depicted as violent and bestial. Why? because some two bit experienced drug trafficker realized his white privilege didn't travel with him overseas, and (gasp), daddy couldn't bribe the Turkish judge to set his son free.
Dishonest hypocritical sadistic manipulative movie that completely ignored the appalling American prison system filled with poor people serving obscenely long sentences for possession of small amounts of drug.
"movie that completely ignored the appalling American prison system filled with poor people serving obscenely long sentences for possession of small amounts of drug." wtf are you talking about? This movie actually brought some attention to the similar bullshit system that was in place in the US, and opened some eyes... and some minds.
Why are you anti-CC. You act like you have to type them yourself. Usually when people don't want them, they don't want their words analyzed or disagreed with. Very juvenile don't you think?
Why do you mistakenly assume I'm anti-CC? YT should generate them automatically but it doesn't. I have to wait a while after upload for YT to generate them, but then manually tell it to actually include it in the vid. I often forget. Rather juvenile of you to think people who don't have them don't want their words analyzed when their words can be heard anyway.
one of the most racist and hateful movies ever made. also worth keeping the geopolitical climate in mind since at the time. In 1974 the illegal greek attempt to ethnically cleanse cyprus of its Turkish Muslim community in order to annex the island led to a war in which the Turks defeated the Greeks. This movie got lots of its financing from the greek/armenian community in order to slander the Turks after being bitter over losing a war the greeks started. The massacres by the greeks against the Muslim Turks started in Christmas and is called bloody christmas by the Turkic Cypriots. Also worth pointing out that the bad/ugly Turks in this are played by greek/armenian actors predominately. I don't actually think the film even stars one ethnic Turk in it. Its a shame you white washed this movie and its real intentions. Also worth pointing out at the time that Britain and France as well as the soviet union threatend Turkey not to intervene and the USA placed various embargoes against Turkiye over it. To understand this movie you have to understand the time frame in which it was made. Nasty film making if were being absolutely honest.
Ah, you expanded your comment from merely "one of the most racist and hateful movies ever made." What's your source for the Greek financing claim? Not that it would change the fact that Turkey has been criticized by human rights organizations then and now for it's human rights abuses and prison system. Also, have you actually watched the video yet?
@@collativelearning I also find the timing of this video very suspicious. Just as we have the Quran burning incident in sweden directed towards Turkiye and Muslims, this video pops up celebrating a work of pure hate. Most nations on earth have human rights abuses, go look at auditing in the UK for example where police routinely and daily trample on our rights, of the USA police murdering its own people, not to mention the brutality of the prison system there. This doesn't include the human rights abuses we have committed over seas like the invasion of iraq. Yes Turkiye has human rights issues, but that doesnt take away from the nature of the movie. This movie was designed from top to bottom to slander an entire race. By jumping on "muh human rights" to justify, you are aiding the wholesale prejudice towards a specific ethnicity. The movie is nearly entirely bullshit fabricated nonsense, you can have find the guy giving interviews in Turkiye where he says as much. But what we cannot deny is how the Turks and Muslims are portrayed in such a racist propaganda type of way. But at least you appreciate it. If you ever made an effort to see how Turks are portrayed in Hollywood, its nearly always entirely negative.
The scene that always sticks in my mind from this film is the bit where he starts walking the opposite way around the room, while the other prisoners start to freak out and try to force him to conform to walking in the "correct" direction.
Yep. A good Turk always walks to the right. Left is communist.
@Matt THX It did remind me very strongly of it at the time yeah... Ah well, I never did mind being a "broken machine".
Yes. And the music was chilling. I have the cd.
@@alenel-rp3riI used to listen to it in my heroin days. I've been clean 5 years and I still enjoy it.
Midnight Express aged really well and let's not forget the mind blowing soundtrack by Giorgio Moroder which was years ahead of its time
It’s very much of its time, (you are just catching up) and yes, it’s a great soundtrack, but that’s not what this video is about, please stay on topic.
@@jnnx What ruined the oscar winning soundtrack somewhat were the dated synth drums, so it's not ahead of its time at all.
@@TheVidkid67 Actually those synth drums sound more futuristic than whatever tail-chase goes on today
@@RideAcrossTheRiver That's because today's soundtracks and films are shit.
Same bass line as I Feel Love by Donna Summer. Casablanca records and film works.
The actual story of Henri Charrière in "Papillon" is a similar letdown, but in the end the 1973 film is amazing in its own right.
Papillon was okay. It was mostly good until its very Hollywood final act.
@@moviearchaeologist9655 the film is generally excellent. I thought the book was phenomenal when I read it when I was about 18
When you say "the actual story" I'm guessing you're referring to the book, which I think is amazing. Movie is good (hard not to be good when you have actors like Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman) but to me it was a letdown when compared to the book.
Papillon the book, was a vanity project.
'I'm still here, ya bastards'
I've never understood why they went with that ending, when what actually happened (at least according to Hayes) was such a story in an of itself.
Billy got himself transferred to a minimum security prison work island, which in the book does sound very cushy,
One night he stole a rowing boat, crossed open sea to the mainland, made it to the border, then had to cross a no-man's between two hostile nations, nearly getting shot by a Greek soldier when he reached the other side of the river.
But I suppose it would confuse the whole theme of the film?
Alan Parker once said he and Stone chose the mental prison setting mainly because of the claustrophobic and mentally turbulent setting suitable to the film's emotional journey. And when I first saw the film, I really did feel tension and gradual triumph of Billy's escape. Totally different to the real life version, but still really works.
@@moviearchaeologist9655 It does really work.
Also think it ties it up nicely with the sadistic head guard getting his comeuppance, 'Hoist with his own petard (well coat hook)' no less..
Apparently Hamid 'the bear' was a right bastard too, he really did beat the children Infront of his own kids, just like in the film.
According to Hayes in a interview, he'd beat this one prisoner and as he was hitting him he's saying stuff like, 'fuck your mother, fuck your father, fuck your sister'
Now Turks are proud people, family wise especially, so the story goes this bloke years later, walks up to Hamid while he's having his morning coffee outside cafe not far from the prison.
Pulls out a pistol and says, 'this is for my mother' *bang*, this is for my father *bang*........'
@@moviearchaeologist9655 Like you say, the film was all about an emotional journey, a sort of 'every man'/'all American kid', who made a stupid mistake, ended up basically in hell. (That's certainly what you get from the insane ward of the prison?)
Makes you wonder though if another writer-director had got hold of the story....
Could have been a very different film? Probably a lot less profound/ moving...
As Pauline Kael put it: Who wants to defend the Turks?
If Oliver Stone had tried to express his anger of Vietnam War, he just couldn't, as the end product became another US weapon.
(US had had some problems with Turkey back then, so they used this film as a blaming campaign.)
The problem with the film is that, it's so hateful against all of a nation. So hateful that it is wildly unrealistic in portraying Turks and Turkey by any means. So orientalist, so cliche...
When you say "hateful against all of a nation" what do you mean? Are you referring to Billy's rant in the court scene. To me it was always obvious, even seeing it as a kid, that the film was showing how Billy was being driven toward hatred by his suffering rather than the film telling us we have to hate Turkey.
@@collativelearning Hi Rob, thanks for your response. Yes I refer to that firstly, why would you invent such a line? Ok let's say it's to express the character's psychological state. But why is it so coarse and directed towards a singular point? You can make him say anything to express his state. He can curse the judge, the prison, the police etc... Or say something with more depth and elegance or creativity to it. After all you are writing it.
And I don't get why we shouldn't care about the obvious meaning of the sentence, but should search for implied meanings? This isn't 2001 a space odyssey after all. Even so, it wouldn't mean the words themselves didn't mean their intended use, unless there is such a big metaphor or something cryptic connected to it. Is there?
You can say the film does criticize that cursing of him, but it doesn't do such a thing that I could spot. And why would it? It's the film itself who invents that line. Think that a screenwriter makes a real person say "f. all jews" or "f. all blacks"... That would be such a scandal. And this is not about being politically correct. It should not be that easy to insult anyone yet a whole nation, for the dramatic effect and the box office.
The other thing is Turkey is shown as a desperate place in which nothing good can grow. All the Turks are either evil or miserable people. This is not realistic. I don't know if I need to expand this, it looks pretty obvious why reality is not such. Such a place doesn't exist. However some SJW guys tries to believe it does: There are oppressors and others are victims and victims don't have any responsibility. Well I don't buy it.
By the way in Turkey there are lots of novels about the prison life for the say last 80-90 years, as lots of leftist guys spent their lives in jails and wrote books reflecting on that. Some have seen lots of torture and even the gallows. What they tell if vastly difference what happens in the movie. There is always room for compassion, bravery, hope and growth.
It's been a long one, hope you have a chance to read. Take care...
@@chucknailstone9274 When I watched the film previously, I always love it as a drama, even though I used to agree that it was harsh against Turkish people (I'm always of the belief that there are good and bad people in Turkey as with anywhere in the world). However, just yesterday after watching the video here, I started realising the accusations of the film being utterly hateful of Turkish people as a whole is likely a misinterpretation for the simple fact that all of the Turkish characters prominently presented are ONLY the kinds of nasty people we would naturally find in the prison setting anywhere on the globe, NOT the Turkish civilians or religious people (the kinds of people tourists including my sister and friends met in the real world who were said to be nice). Turkish civilians and religious people were only present as background extras at the beginning of the film and that's it. So I personally consider the film critical ONLY to the Turkish prison system. To the critics' credit, it can be said that the downplaying of the Turkish locals' presence in the film misled both critics and real audiences to believe the whole country is bad, but I would say critics were more at fault for generalising their assumptions that further spread the misinterpretation instead of specifying the limited prison context, which kind of comes off as wanting to avoid the awkward discussion of what the real Turkish prison system is really like in the details.
On top of the reports of Turkish prison system infringing on human rights as Rob said, something else that made me lean more towards the notion that there is some truth of what is depicted in MIDNIGHT EXPRESS on some level is the videos posted over the years showing Turkish politicians physically fighting each other. Check out the one in 2016, it's raw, apparently that was all about proposed legislation to remove Turkish MPs' immunity from investigations of specific crimes, so them going at each others' throats for that really strike me as suspicious. And if they are THAT intolerant and aggressive to each other on live cameras, then what are the chances of the Turkish prison guards having done the same to its prisoners (and maybe other prison guards), especially off camera?
As for the film's Billy Hayes shouting in anger of "I hate you, I hate your country", it's plain to see that he is becoming as nasty as his captors. Think about the black character in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD as a comparative point, that guy is very tearful in the courtroom scene for us to feel strong sympathy for him. Imagine if the black character behaves like Billy Hayes and screams in anger of hating white people, that would make him sound just as nasty as the white racists. So I don't see the angry speech in MIDNIGHT EXPRESS as promoting hatred of Turkey. If the filmmakers wanted to, it would've consistently presented Billy Hayes as a helpless victim, not a raging one who later bites a tongue out. And yet the angry speech feels emotionally honest to me, despite the inaccuracy.
Oh, and as for the "leftist guys" writing books of their experiences, I haven't read up on those (you haven't specified), but you know writer Oliver Stone considers himself Left Wing. The film includes a Left vs Right wing metaphor of prisoners going in right circle movements around a pillar, only for Billy to go the Left in rebellion (which a nutcase character referred to as Communist). And, get this, the beginning of the film includes an American newspaper clipping of Nixon promoting capital punishment (he was already disgraced in 1978 when the film was made), and a news story of American police officers shooting students in Kent. Total proof that the film wasn't just about prisons and police brutality in Turkey.
Sorry for the long comment here, but I do think accusations of racism is a big misunderstanding of MIDNIGHT EXPRESS that needs to be fully addressed. I did initially believe that myself only to change my mind recently. Thanks for reading, take care...
@@moviearchaeologist9655 Thank you for your response. Don't get me wrong but all these views in the favor of the movie skip the fact that the movie itself was produced as a way of taking revenge from Turkey by the US, because of the Cyprus issue. And the film has been very successful in that regard as Turkey lost its majority of touristic income in the following years.
There are not tons of movies made in Hollywood about Turkey, there is maybe not even a handful of them. So it's not like there were different viewpoints and this one. There was only this one for the general audience for a real long time. So this can not be considered in the context of freedom of speech, this is propaganda. It may not be racist, but sure it is an orientalist movie. The way Turkey depicted looks so miserable. And so cliche especially with the bad characters, they are so superficial in screenwriting terms.
What you probably don't know is 2 years after the movie is made, US perpetrated a military coup in Turkey and it was the worst time ever for the political prisoners. Lots of torture and gallows too. It is the US who transformed our prisons into their worst shape.
Guess how many Hollywood movies have been made on this topic? None. I'm not naive to expect such a thing from them, but I'm trying to show the way the movies were made. The motive behind the production...
So when a major Hollywood studio from US tries to preach me about my country's problems in such a degrading manner, it is clear that it is inimical in the motive.
Maybe you don't know that the reason Billy Hayes had 30 years, was because of the US government's pressure on Turkish government for their policy of war on drugs. So no US citizen could dare to bring some hashish back into the States.
Lots of clashing ideas about how he escaped, probably it was a mini intelligence agency operation. There was no way for him to escape by himself and go to the border unnoticed. Then he crosses the border... Really? He was probably let go by Turkish government in accordance with the US government.
And just a side note, maybe some western people might think that Turkey was or is an uncivilized country so they can't understand why Turks are so upset about the movie. It would be their ignorance, but I'm not sure on this one.
Another thing is there are some rare movies like this one, which crushes the souls of the audience, because it is so saddening and depressive. But it's a substantial emotional experience after all, people just cling to it even years after watching. Maybe those people don't like the fact that the movie that manipulated their emotions was a politically motivated propaganda piece. Thus maybe they just don't like the possibility that they were fooled big time by the US government?
Thank you for your time.
@@chucknailstone9274 Haha, the guy knows he is about to receive a life sentence for a minor drug crime. This means permanent separation from family, girlfriend and decades of misery if he lives that long. He's not going to speak with eloquence and creativity in response to that lol. He resorts to the most base, crass, offensive, hateful things he can think of in the moment because he wants to offend the judges who are about to completely destroy his life. He wants to make them feel as bad as he can for what they are about to do to him. Calling them pigs and what he says about their kids was so OTT it's obvious the film isn't telling us we should feel that way. I saw the film when I was about 9 years old and understood that framing.
Why is the "scandal" of offensive language you refer to so bad? Do you prefer movies that pretend people don't say such things toward people they perceive as their oppressors? And yes there have been plenty of movies past and present that contain such dialogue.
I really think you've missed the whole point of both the movie and this video. Shame. The movie is about prison injustices the world over. If you choose to view it as an attack on Turkey then you ruin it for yourself imo. Thanks for the discussion.
In his best days, Oliver Stone excelled at pushing the bounds of poetic license. In regard to the films based on true events that Stone wrote/directed, the key to appreciating them is to watch them as works of art rather than as reliable representations of what actually happened. The guy wasn't about to let the facts get in the way of telling the story he wanted to tell. But it worked! Despite being fairly wacky on a historical level, "JFK" is a hell of a movie. "The Doors" is likewise enjoyable even if it frequently stretches the truth (for instance, Stone created the peyote scene in the desert out of whole cloth; it didn't truly happen, yet the scene is so great that its lack of veracity ought be forgiven). You just have to embrace Stone as an artist while rejecting him as a historian.
So basically you are describing a propaganda director, one who won't allow any facts to get in the way of his political messages, aptly seen in this film.
@@billjoe39 Some argue that ALL movies are propaganda of one form one or another. At least with Oliver Stone, there's not much of an attempt to hide that. It's fine if people dislike his films for their historical inaccuracies and often extreme bias. I just think they're ignoring Stone's superb artistry as a director (an inconsistent artistry that falls short in many of his films, I'll add; he has certainly directed some awful duds, in addition to a handful of masterpieces).
@@wjkathman Extreme bias? What film does not have a bias.....also I get it you imply films, that don't directly follow Washington's political playbook, display 'extreme bias'. Let's face it, Hollywood is a propaganda machine, and ollie was chosen to play the 'nasty' liberal, alongside his conservative' counterparts like john milius.
@@wjkathmangotta wonder if you would extend the same courtesy to Leni Riefenstahl. She was artistically as gifted as Stone, if not more so. Just like Stone, she chose to use her gifts for propaganda. Or is kissing putin's ass more palatable for an artist than glorifying Hitler?
I agree completely...it's Stone's art...it's not supposed to be completely accurate
I always enjoy your work Rob, it is refreshing to listen to and watch, a sober, calm and opinionated (in the best possible way, naturally) take on films I like. A really close friend of mine between the ages of 11 and 25 or so, was a total film but, buff, and I was always impressed by how he would point things out that seem incredibly obvious once you know. I could kind of do a similar thing with a poem maybe, but most of the time a film just washes over me, and I often find myself completely manipulated (usually emotionally, I mean I cry when I see the new John Lewis Christmas ad each year 😥🙄
I both saw the film then later read the book. The film has little resemblance to Hayes' own words in his book. Apparently he was mortified with how the Turkish were represented in the film. I'm really not surprised either! Stone sort of treated the film as a political platform in the screenplay. The "I hate your nation" speech in court was completely fabricated, Hayes actually spoke of forgiveness to the judge when his sentence was increased. The ending of the film was horseshit too since Hayes bribed a guard then got a boat to freedom. No attempted sodomy, no guard's uniform etc. Hayes was blamed by the Turkish people for the representation even though he denounced the film. Another great video Rob thanks.
There are pics of Billy Hayes on set, proud of the project. My question is why did he not speak out against it back then? Maybe the book ales boost had something to do with it.
Good point Rob.
@@collativelearningshh, your making sense again Rob.
@@collativelearning he's a changeling. He hated the whole nation in 75 and told that to his neighbours in jail. I've heard it, I was there.
The most profoundest biographies -- it isn't just a biography of the person in question, but also a reflection of the person who tells their story. For this reason, I loved 'A Beautiful Mind' even though the real John Nash said of it: "I liked it a lot. But it wasn't me." And in Midnight Express, you cannot deny the passion Oliver Stone puts in the mere tale of Billy being trapped in Turkey. If a subjective bias is inevitable when it comes to a real life story, it is better to leverage it for all its worth to convey truths you deeply feel -- in contrast with the so-called objective documentary telling which is really a supercilious perch to stand upon.
The 'passion' that oliver stone puts in this movie? You mean, those grotesque stereotypes of every local, prisoner or keeper included , perhaps. All roles portrayed by non Turkish actors, incidentally, including an Isreali 'soldier' portraying the guard who almost assaults Billy near the end. All this in keeping with the strong anti arab msm portrayals in the 70's, and onwards. This here by 'liberal' director stone, who also deems fit to post photos of himself supposedly fighting in vietnam,.
I love Midnight Express. Alan Parker was a master filmmaker. Yes probably it's true story element was 100%. I know Oliver Stone used his experience of going to prison for drugs in the 1970s. The real Billy Hayes had been dealing with hashish in other countries before he got caught. He wasn't as innocent compare to Brad Davis portrayal of Billy Hayes in the film.
it's interesting to think about how, even though I haven't seen MIDNIGHT EXPRESS in about 20 years and have forgotten most of the details, it does remain tremendously influential as every time I think of being imprisoned in a foreign country I immediately picture eking out an existence in a squalid hellhole as it depicts. It might also be one of the first prison movies to show the experience as utterly horrific, transforming a normal man into a monster and then into a wreck of a survivor barely clinging onto his humanity. Compare this with something like I WAS A FUGITIVE FROM A CHAIN GANG or COOL HAND LUKE and it really is a whole different experience. It's like the difference between the first and last halves of UNCLE TOM'S CABIN.
Facist Americans
"It seems like Oliver Stone had been dishonest, to make the film more commercially viable." Oliver Stone, lying about history? Huh, ya don't say...
My response EXACTLY. His JFK is the biggest, bald faced LIE ever filmed. I believed every second of that film to the point I did my own research....
he is a pinko leftist so he gets away with dishonest hackery
@@markpage9886 no its the second biggest lie. Al Gore's "documentary " an inconvenient truth is the biggest lie on film. bowling for columbine being 3rd
@@markpage9886 Still a great movie though
Are you by any chance one of those coincidence theorists?
So glad you finally got to this movie. Watched the shit out of this in college.
An interesting take on Oliver Stone's powerful line Billy Hayes gives,
"What's legal today is suddenly illegal tomorrow." - Currently the United States is considering a ban on natural gas stoves, which have been perfectly legal for decades, "because some society says it's so."
On the other side, "what's illegal yesterday is suddenly legal." - As of 2023, 21 of the 50 states in the United States now have legal recreational Marijuana, "because everybody's doing it, and you can't put everybody in jail."
Yeah lots of examples doing the rounds all the time.
Did that proposal on gas stoves come from one of the politicians from here in California? I love my state but we definitely lead the country in ridiculous bans and restrictions. Well, probably a tie with New York.
@Coinraker It's actually coming from the Consumer Product Safety Commission, but it would not surprise me in the least if California and New York politicians jumped right away on the "yes we need to ban gas stoves!" bandwagon.
@@coinraker6497it’s more than a proposal, it’s law. The cleanest energy ever is now suddenly dirty.
the only thing that really bothers me about the changes is that they completely changed how he escaped, which was so much more powerful in real life, so I don't really get why they had this whole cliche "wear the guard's uniform and walk out the front gate". The real escape is a lot more cinematic and it also offers opportunities for interesting thematic exploration
Film critics that came up the hard way and those that haven’t … big deference , your insight is gold
Loving this, thank you Rob. Midnight Express was a favourite film of mine growing up.
Thank you for giving a in-depth review of Midnight Express. It's been a film that stays with you for a while.
this movie was a lie, stop spreading the lie, the producer of the movie apologised to public and to Turish people
@@SPECREY That's a lie right there. Never happened.
@@ryancalhoun2910 like your saying that this movie is lie or the imformation im.giving just check.google he has a interview
***BREAKING NEWS!*** Movie adaptions take artistic liberties!
Nothing new. Elephant Man and The Untouchables are other great movies that made major artistic liberties
Classic movie. Loved your analysis, always dig your videos
Poor Brad Davis. I've read different accounts of his life before he died but still a sad ending for a really good actor.
He was fantastic, really, really engaging performance he gave. Emotionally charged, but his performance never felt overdramatic or forced. Sad he died young.
His life before he died...
Is there any other life?
@@theinnerlight8016 the inner light continues after death
@@alexeisavrasov888 prove it.
@@theinnerlight8016 well energy (spirit) is never destroyed, just changed. we are animated by spirit. C'mon, you think this realm is all there is in the Universe?
Oliver Stone is an intellectual and a superb writer whose body of work will still hold up well decades from now. Midnight Express is a brilliantly filmed movie though.
Hayes was from North Babylon, NY, the same Long Island town I lived in during his ordeal. I remember the multi part series that the Long Island newspaper Newsday did on William Hayes. Timing was everything for him, if he had been arrested ten years before or ten years later, his story wouldn't have been news. He had a lot of support from many people who, by that time, had softened their opinions about the counterculture. In a way, he was lucky.
he even had a senator speaking for him and writing to the Turks.
Honestly, all the shit this movie has taken over the years over claims of racism and xenophobia, is one of those controversies I never felt really held much water. Make no mistake, any movie I feel has a blatantly racist agenda, I'll absolutely acknowledge, regardless of any personal entertainment I get from it. I love me some Westerns, but simultaneously, I have no qualms admitting that as a genre, they've historically glorified the slaughtering of non-white people. So belive me when I say, Midnight express is one of those instances where I don't personally feel it's deserved. Full disclosure, I'm an American, I can't have the perspective of a Turkish person, and theirfore have no right to say they're wrong to be offended. I can only go on my own perspective.
With that said, I just don't see who in their right mind would interpret this movie as an indictment against ALL Turkish people and their culture. It's a story that takes place in a prison, and it doesn't matter what country the jail is in, any prison you can go to is going to contain some of the most depraved and evil human beings imaginable, both as prisoners and employees sadly, this is just the world we live in and it can't always be portrayed in a bright, positive light. As for the infamous scene in the courtroom, my attitude on that has always been something along the lines of so fucking what? He's just one individual, and human nature being what it is, of course he's going to develop a resentment against the people who put him through the hell he's endured. I'm not saying that the feelings of hatred expressed in that scene are morraly OK or anything, but they are realistic to the circumstances. I just say this because I've always found Midnight express to be a genuinely great movie, not a perfect movie, but great nevertheless and it's dismayed me over the years, how much it's reputation has been tarnished over controversies that often really don't seem waranted.
Yes! And as a viewer, the Midnight Express movie never changed my perception of Turkey consisting of good and bad people as with anywhere else on the planet. The Turkish parliament fights seen on RUclips made me distrusting of the Turkish government, though.
Great summary. Thanks :)
What a great, in depth, and honest analysis. Aware of one’s own bias Rob? What?!?!? If only mankind had this self awareness
Well i don't see anybody complain on other movies that didn't follow the true Story , like The Wolf of wall Street , if our standard for "good movies" is gonna be the word "acurrate " well let's trow all the great classics of "based on a true story " you'll not have a great time watching this kinds of movies, top notch movie...
Excellent content, again. Thank you Rob!
"Through many a dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ was
Betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
That if God's on our side
He'll stop the next war."
Bob Dylan
Have you ever seen Midnight Cowboy, Rob? I watched it recently for the first time without very high expectations and it may now be one of my favourite films.
Completely factual or not, Midnight Express was an emotional gut-punch. I have always had a problem with the "Based on a true story" concept of movie authorship. It is such a broad and poorly defined concept, which provides us with drivel like "The Amityville Horror". Somebody reports hearing a noise in their house at night, which gets translated to angry, murderous ghosts and bleeding walls. Another great "true" prison movie is "Papillon" with Steve McQueen. Now I wonder how much that was embellished.
@@rabudman Thanks, but I'm not going to watch 2 talking heads yammer about this nonsense for an hour and half. I read the Wikipedia article, which is plenty. The story has no more validity than the multitude of alien abduction stories that have spawned movies of their own. People latch on to a compelling story of real and natural circumstances, then create their own fantastical drama around it to sell to the highest bidder. It's a practice as old as the Bible.
@@aliensoup2420 ok dipshit
@@rabudman Good comeback. Compelling and original.
Under the silver lake is very confusing. But I've never tried to understand a movie as much this one. It has codes eyes wide shut,the big laboskie, many code in the movie, I still can't make any sense of it. I hope you will watch it and give your take.
I remember my washout uncle was babysitting me one day when midnight express came on. This was in Australia in 97 or 98 and I was about nine years old. He called my mother and asked a question that would change my life forever: "is it okay if Ben watches Midnight Express?" and my mother gave the possibly even more life-changing and perhaps irresponsible answer: "sure." my uncle and I sat there while I grew more and more horrified and he got more and more stoned. I don't know if any piece of art has moved me more, planting the seeds for everything from my politics to my phobias to my tolerance for violence in film. Yesterday Turkiye was hit by a series of massive devastating earthquakes and my first thought wasn't of humanitarian suffering, it was "that's the backwards Turkish prison guys" because my perception of Turkey even after twenty odd years and twenty odd Anzac services is still informed by this brutal movie that I was exposed to as a kid.
That movie was a fucking lie
Watched this movie once, and never again. Great movie, but hard to watch again.
@Alabama Wyatt Really? I'm not sure that's true
Rob Ager, you seem to have missed a glaring paradox in the film. Billy Hayes was sentenced to five years for possession then a further 30 years for smuggling a substance that was tacitly permitted within the walls of Sagmalcilar Prison in Istanbul. The film depicts prison guards ostensibly allowing Rifki to import and sell drugs (in exchange for kickbacks and services rendered ratting out other inmates). It appears that the guards also turned a blind eye to the consumption of drugs by Rifki's customers such as Max. Where does the historical truth lie? Max, Rifki and Hamidou were largely fictional characters, but what typically happened in the real-life 1970's Turkish penal system? did a double standard exist whereby drug possession and public drug use were harshly penalized by the Turkish courts yet condoned within the Turkish prison system?
Probably best not to mention 'brutal Turkish prison systems'... not whilst Julian rots in Belmarsh. The UK has no moral high ground.
People go to these countries and commit crimes knowing they're illegal and knowing how bad the prison systems in these countries are and how severe the punishments can be. To criticise the film over its depiction of crimes and abuses of power that occur in every prison in the world over fears for racism or mischaracterisation I feel misses the point entirely. The film goes out of its way to make you feel sorry for the protaganist. It's the story ignorant arrogant young westerner who smashes their lives against the legal rocks of a foreign land where there is no safety net and reality bites visciously hard, and the truth is that that the world isn't some playground for western hippy liberals to skip through in a cloud of weed smoke, and that however deeply you may despise the policies of your homeland there are many places in the world that are far worse. No one criticises shawshank for its portrayal of the prison system, yet because this film is set in turkey somehow it's a problem. This is a brilliant film and first seeing it as a kid I was shocked by its raw portrayal of prison life and the injustice of the legal system. Now I'm older I see a stupid young rich kid whose naivety nearly cost him is life.
Parker is a hidden gem. The Road to Wellville is a criminally underrated comedy. It seems people in the US have been to given to Kellogg's propaganda and mythmaking efforts to understand how well the film captures the Calvinism of Michigan, and the zaniness of tail end of victorianisms sexuality as well as doing a good job of illustrating the zeal of grifters in their religious showman as businessman. We still see this personality in american business' influence on politics. Snake oil salesmen.
Whenever someone complains about the historical accuracy of a movie, I always say "If you want historical accuracy, don't go to the movies." For example, the real Bonnie and Clyde weren't as good looking as Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty.
It is funny how Ager's right leaning politics influence his interpretation. Stone isn't commenting on how well-meaning people get incarcerated and have there lives ruined for minor crimes. It's that draconian justice is bad. It seems some people don't mind brutality in prisons, as long as it's the "really bad" criminals that are locked up. I don't mind that Ager is so conservative cuz his analyses are so interesting... but def have to watch out for those biases.
If you want to understand the underlying reason of strong anti-Turkish sentiment in the movie (much stronger than Hayes’s book), you gotta understand Turkey’s image in US media and public in late 70’s and for this, you gotta understand the deteriorating relationship between Turkey and USA during 60’s and 70’s (Cyprus crisis in 63, 69 and 74; Turkey’s rejection to stop its opium poppy production, finally resulting in US sanctions against Turkey). This all ended of course after 1980 fascist military coup in Turkey which accepted all US terms and made the country US’s biggest ally in the region.
I watched this movie along with Missing, The China Syndrome, and Last Deer Hunter. The funny thing about this movie was the scene with the girlfriend exposing herself to billy through the phonebooth. There's a comedy spoof of it that I just now understand.
The Cable Guy?
@@mroctober3657 lol yeah that was it. Couldn't remember the name
Stone is 50/50. 50 percent of the time his work is pretty good, the other 50 percent of the time he is a hack that needs some one to keep him in line. Milus fixing his Conan script and how he ruined Tarantino's Natural Born Killers are two good examples of how he veers out into hackery.
Hackery in what way? As a filmmaker purely or as someone trying to make a point with the art he creates?
He likes David lynch a lot and it comes through in movies like natural born killers.
@@transmissionggb2820 Liking Lynch has nothing to do with anything, as many extremely good filmmakers, far better than Stone, are also big Lynch fans. And why wouldn't they be, as he's maybe the second best director who ever lived.
I personally don't like Natural Born Killers because it's just not very well made. Horribly acted by all except Harrelson and I also thought the script was not very good. I don't see any of Lynch in that film at all.
I'm 50/50 on Stone, as well, either I've seen the movie or not.
And his horrible Doors biopic. He really wasted Val Kilmer.
Need to say this here as I’m already seeing this in the comments and I anticipate this continuing to pop up. The idea that the movie misrepresents Turkey and even promotes hatred of the entire Turkish country and culture. I can understand that viewpoint, but I think it’s a misunderstanding caused by the simple fact that the story only prominently shows us Turkish characters who are either police officers, prison guards, bureaucrats, or prisoners, but NEVER civilians, priests or anyone outside the prison setting, they are only shown as background extras in the beginning of the film and that’s it. I know people who told me of visiting Turkey and saying about the nice locals (my brother in law my sister married is Turkish and I like him), but of course they never visited the prisons consisting of people who would undoubtedly be of a different mindset of the average Turkish civilian, and MIDNIGHT EXPRESS focuses its story on the prison setting, not the entire Turkish culture.
In the prison setting (anywhere on the globe), hardly anyone would naturally be presented in a very innocent light even in movies, and that includes the American characters like Billy Hayes who lashes out over time and said some nasty things in the Turkish courtroom about wanting to “f*** your kids because they’re pigs!” I don’t believe Oliver Stone put that in to promote hatred or violence against Turkish people, I think that scene of Hayes’ anger speaks to the harsh truth of how prison life or just difficulties of the legal system can really upset and anger people that they can become just as nasty as their perceived opponents. IT IS NOT PROMOTING HATRED OF THE ENTIRE TURKISH COUNTRY, although it certainly criticises the Turkish prison system just as the British movie SCUM does with the corruption and brutality of British youth borstals.
And on Oliver Stone’s statement that his MIDNIGHT EXPRESS story represents the cruelty of the prison systems all over, not just Turkey’s, I believe he meant it. Looking at clips of the film itself just now, there is an American newspaper shown early on which mentions of Nixon calling for capital punishment (remember, the film was made in 1978, so Nixon was already looked down upon for Watergate, and Oliver Stone described himself as a Left Winger which normally looks down on capital punishment). The newspaper also shows “Manson Dives at Judge with Sharp Pencil”, and “Student Violence, Guard Fire at Kent Condemned in Report”. Cruelty and police injustice present in America too.
Think of it this way, we watch many war movies and play war video games where we are typically shown Nazis as the only German people present in the stories, but (at least these days) we do not automatically assume the Nazis represented ALL Germans in the country.
And lastly on Turkey’s government itself, although I heard people say the locals are nice and liking their holidays there as tourists, I was also told about the strict conscription laws in Turkey which my Turkish brother-in-law personally think is harsh. I’ve also seen video footage of Turkish politicians physically fighting each other in their parliament over the years, the worst one in 2016. These politicians are THAT openly intolerant and aggressive to each other, this alone gives more plausibility to the idea of their prison system being nasty.
On top of this, my sister told me that the Turkish language is very difficult to learn and use, so much that she and my brother in law decided to converse mainly in Spanish! That fits nicely with the language barrier problem in the movie.
MIDNIGHT EXPRESS is a great movie which is inaccurate but also artistically misunderstood, and I do agree its artistic reputation needs to be restored.
Bullshit, this shitty movie is nothing more than American propaganda and only reason it aired is American's lust for opium. Those hypocritical westerners always do shameless things like that.
Although I generally agree with the themes of the film, I do have a problem with films which purport to be true but obviously deviate from the true story, another classic example is "Braveheart" which to me, as a qualified historian, is unwatchable because of the historical inaccuracies, but "Midnight Express" is obviously a good film in it's own right if you ignore the inaccuracies.
Elephant Man and The Untouchables are other great movies that are very inaccurate to the original historical contexts, but still powerful and emotionally consistent regardless.
I never liked Braveheart personally. Not for historical reasons. I just wasn't interested in the story. Midnight Express comes into its own when viewed as a general representation of court and prison injustices all over the world. To me the Billy Hayes story was just a springboard used to tell a more important universal story about societal cruelty.
@@moviearchaeologist9655 The Untouchables is not a great movie, I have spoken.
As young teen, watching on HBO, it was clear what the main character was doing in the clink. Clear. We watched over and over, as it was captivating and chilling.
I remember seeing this as a kid.
Another good esucational vid. Thanks mr ager. Cheers
14:00 “… on the other hand…” actually applies perfectly to TODAY’s Hollywood Film, Books and TV that oppressively push political
Agendas down the throats of consumers at the cost of beloved franchises and lifelong fans.
"Oliver Stone had been rather dishonest..."
Business as usual for him.
Not always.
JFK is the one I've always been curious about how historically accurate it is.
@@coinraker6497 It's pretty much spot on but many details of Garrison's investigation have been altered for dramatic purposes, e.g. some characters (such as Kevin Bacon's, Michael Rooker's and Donald Sutherland's) are composites of actual people. In Any case, certain moments in the film are clearly not meant to be 'historically accurate' but are presented as speculation by characters. It's closer to historical reality than most Hollywood 'true story' accounts.
Excellent analysis xxx
Great film but after reading the book I'm still disappointed with the movies ending compared to the real life escape. Will you be doing any videos breaking down the opening scene Rob? It's so suspenseful and beautifully done
12:40 I saw this when I was 13... and yes, that courtroom dialog definitely hit me as well. I agree with the overall assessment here. I'm not convinced an updated disclaimer is *required*, but wouldn't find it objectionable.
Omg there was a divination from the source material.?? That never happens.
I was blown away by this film ….
I thought Midnight Express was too harsh on the Turkish people, especially considering Billy Hays had smuggled drugs many times before he was finally caught.
I knew Oliver Stone wanted the big battle at the end which was just all wrong for this movie. I love Alan Parker movies, this and angel heart sit proudly in my video collection.
Just re-watched Angel Heart the other day.... Fantastic film. And not only do I find it underappreciated, but I think it's actually more complex and deeper than it is given credit for.
Angel Heart is one of the most criminally underrated films of all time.
Pink Floyd the Wall is another great one from Alan Parker
@@moviearchaeologist9655 I grew up on that one.... It's a work of art, to be sure.
@@moviearchaeologist9655 and Bugsy Malone.
I read the book many years ago and even THAT had to deviate from certain points of reality for political reasons. It's a shame Brad Davis didn't go on to more gritty roles such as this, you'd think directors would be falling all over themselves to hire him but much like Jessica Walter after her unforgettable psychotic part in Play Misty For Me...she only ended up in mundane TV films and episodes of Columbo ever since.
There is a big difference between a Pow camp and a concentration camp , although one can resemble the other under certain circumstances .
Thank you for making this.
Cognitive dissonance cuts both ways, it cuts for things one adores, loves, and admires. And it also cuts for things one hates, despises, and dislikes. People will cling to ideals that suit their desired perceptions in life. And hating Turkiye is a collective stimulus that people ceremoniously cling on to with media such as this film.
William "Billy" Hayes, the actual writer of the book on which this movie is based, has made it abundantly clear in many instances that this movie is a biased interpretation of his story. It is PROPAGANDA according to William "Billy" Hayes, it is in writing, verbatim. But regardless of this fact, people still cling on to this film as a justification for their biased political views.
And Oliver Stone is such a hit-or-miss guy, to begin with. Yea we all admire him for doing the most mainstream open conspiracy movie "JFK". But he is also responsible for the movie "World Trade Center" featuring Nicholas Cage. Presenting that fateful day just like the 911 Commission depicted it. For the love of the cosmos imagine making a movie mocking the Warren Commission and later in life making a movie depicting and not judging the 911 Commission. Seriously...
Anyway, thank you for your videos. I like your input on many media.
Who hates Turkey? Oliver Stone? Alan Parker? Giorgio Moroder?
I think Billy Hayes is a bit of a hypocrite on this subject. He was happy to go along with the making of the film. He was there on set. He knew what was being made. And years later he flips his position. So does this mean he was a propagandist too before he flipped? Or was he just in it for the cash? And if he was willing to go along with the film's deviations to begin with then how honest was his book in the first place? I haven't read it but a lot of it will just be his word with no one to prove otherwise.
Regarding Oliver Stone's overall filmography, there are films whose messages I agree and disagree with. The guy has made so much political content that I don't think anyone would agree with it all. It's also clear his politics have altered from time to time as anyone's does. So my view is to take each film primarily on its own merits. You can claim he hates Turkey as many do (short sighted view imo), but you can also watch Platoon and claim he hates the US.
@@collativelearning @Collative Learning I don't think anybody that was a part of any production, or a set, knows how the final cut of their movie would be unless they are at the very top of the compartmentalization chain. The footage that was shot could be edited in a myriad of ways with sound and effects, with the finished movie being drastically different than what people thought it would be during the set.
I was a part of a movie production and an actress walked out of the premiere of the movie while causing a scene because the director lied to her, and used shots she promised not to use. The director got away with it because she was a female as well. I can't imagine how big the ruckus and blowback would be if the director was a male and did the same thing but that is a whole other tangent.
And tragically you misinterpreted my comment. I never stated that Oliver Stone hates a specific nation. But I did state that "people" cling on to certain media such as this movie to justify their biased political views. It is like willingly going into an echo chamber to rile yourself up with purpose. Think about it as two minutes of hate segment from 1984.
And Platoon is a fictional movie with fictional characters, to begin with. The setting is real and historical but the story is pure fiction. None of those characters exist. On the contrary Midnight Express is a true story penned by a person that went through it. The two scripts are drastically different and to compare them is asinine in this instance. In my humble opinion.
@@collativelearning P.S.
And mentioning hypocrisy is a bit reaching when the subject matter is Oliver Stone.
He can make Midnight Express but I don't think he even noticed the irony in the recent debacle with Brittney Griner in Russia, the WNBA player arrested and incarcerated for the same reason William Hayes was incarcerated for.
She was sent to an artic gulag that was probably worse than the fictional prison depicted in Midnight Express. But of course, the country in question is a favorite of Oliver Stone(him being one of the few American names to interview Putin ever). And she was also traded out for an arms dealer at the end but I wonder if the irony ever dawns on the great Oliver Stone at his current age.
@@emreus1 It's difficult to say how much he knew during production. Did he get to read the script? What scenes were being shot? His "objections" to the film didn't occur on public record until 1999 (two decades after release) to my knowledge. Have a watch of this 1978 interview. He has already seen the movie and speaks approvingly of it. ruclips.net/video/XRnP5hI26_8/видео.html
I've been involved in film shoots too in various roles including as director, so yeah I'm familiar that actors sometimes are annoyed at a final cut. But again, Hayes approved the movie upon release.
I wouldn't call it "tragic" if I misinterpreted your statement - bit over dramatic there nudge nudge ;) So you're not saying Stone was hateful to the Turks? In that case don't blame the movie. Blame the viewer who brings that opinion to the experience.
I'm not convinced that many people view it like that anyway. My impression is most people view the Turkey setting as largely incidental. It could have been set in many different historical oppression contexts, but no matter which one was chosen, a viewer could claim bigotry toward said nation if they choose to interpret it as such. Consider this ... Billy's rant at the judge (which winds some people up when they think the film is approving his momentary reactive hatred for the nation whose court is about to give him a life sentence) starts with a statement about how laws "differ from time to time and place to place". He's referencing prison injustices everywhere. Even seeing the film as a kid that was clear to me. He bites a guy's tongue out but no one is saying the film approves that behaviour generally. The movie is showing how his traumas are turning him into a person full of rage and hate.
On your last point about Platoon, I did come across one interview where Stone described Sgt Barnes as being based on a real officer. Just because he changed the name doesn't change the source. And it's not "pure fiction". The Vietnam War was real. A lot of the events in the film are based on Stone's actual experience of what it was like to serve in those circumstances. He wanted to show people what it was actually like to be there.
Thanks for your thoughts anyway :)
Another banger
Brilliant film. Love your channel by the way.
Great video!!
Incredible video! Keep up the good work.
You are a FUCKING genius.
Greetings from Argentina
Not to take away from Stone's excellent writing, but the prepubescent his lines reached were a prepubescent Rob Ager.
Rob, as always, you manage to find more than other "critics" can be bothered to explore. On a similar note, have you caught that 2014 flick, WHIPLASH? Just like how you say Stone projected his own personal feelings and trauma about the war in Vietnam into Midnight Express, this flick, Whiplash, has strong similarities on the narrative level.
This will take a while to explain, so bear with me everybody. In it, a kid, desperate for approval from a music conservatory's studio band's sadistic (and arguably sociopathic) music director, basically allows his mind turn to mush in his pursuit of being one of the "greats". On a deep, psychological level it is absolutely spot-on in exploring the psychology of the cycle of abuse and hatred and I'd even argue, what "social justice" govts i.e. Communist, Fascist, leftist etc. are in practice as personified by the underhanded actions, gaslighting and psychological manipulation the band director, Fletcher, dishes out on his students. Kind of similar to the whole "It's for your own good" abuser mentality when in reality, it's all for their own personal gain and not others.
Now as a musician myself, the movie is DANGEROUSLY AND GROSSLY INACCURATE in portraying what it means to be a musician, never mind a Jazz musician or what music overall is about. The director claims that it was based on his own traumas going to music school as a kid but, like I said, the movie sends a very dangerous precedent that will give musicians and music overall a very bad image for years to come. That is the one part of the movie that really BOILS MY BLOOD.
Plus being ex-Army myself, my BLOOD BOILS EVEN MORE knowing that ppl watching this movie will look at these studio band characters like they're in some "elite" special forces unit when they have ZERO idea what "ELITE" looks like. Ironically, the tactics of the music teacher in many ways, mirrors the same psychological tactics military leaders use to train their units or pit ppl against one another to stir everyone up into a hateful frenzy, especially before a possible combat operation.
Kinda like Dirty Harry in that there's views in the flick ppl love to HATE but yet other views they can agree with, it's interesting to think of when put in that similar context to Midnight Express. Thoughts?
Wow, I just browsed through the comments and just noticed some scary shit down there.
In that Vietnam pic he looks like Dane Cook 😂
I can't remember but going off clips in your video, There didn't appear to be many Turkish people in the Turkish prison.
It's mostly Turks in there, but Billy hooks up with the foreigners, as usually happens in prisons.
Its a great movie. Its not meant to be a documentary. Im hearing that moroder theme in my head!!!!
Hi Rob I would like to hear a analysis on the Last Temptation of Christ from you.
I've never seen Midnight Express
It is worth watching simply as great filmmaking. Good directing, good photography, good art direction, good acting.
its a propaganda and also rqcist movie, even its producers said everything they potrayed was a lie, check google.for his interview
Watch the movie for yourself and come to your own conclusion as to whether it's great film making and / or propaganda. Note that SPEC-X S didn't provide a link to what he claims as well.
@@SPECREY You keep saying check Google, but I did and I find nothing you claim. Why don't you just provide the link rather than telling us to look it up? To me, that's a sign that it doesn't exist.
"Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"
I have. In 74.
Hi Rob mate.
Been following you for many years now. You've responded to me on the odd RUclips comment many moons ago but you might not remember. Appreciated the friendly interaction though.
As I've said before...Despite our own personal political differences, your film analysis transcends political leaning in favour of our love of film making. You really don't go there unless the artist themself did. You're extremely open minded that way.
Anyway...
Since you did a wee bit of heavy shilling on this particular vid...
Any chance of a link to your movie to purchase? Turn In Your Grave. I purchased it years ago online, God knows where now. A few houses and broadband providers and PCs ago...
Fancied purchasing and viewing it again where you get the most kickback? Can't find it on your website atm. Certain parts seem to be down or getting upgraded. If it's available on Vimeo or something, perfect. Will buy it on the 10th. Promise. If you get all the kickback, perfect.
Keep up the amazing film analysis, Rob. Long time, mostly silent, avid fan.
Last time I saw it, it's on his "Film analysis" page for some reason. I need to watch it again, really interesting low budget flick. 📽📽
Thanks. No idea the political differences you refer, though personally I find I have political differences with everybody because I don't subscribe to any particular off the shelf ideology. As for Turn In Your Grave, it's still available on my site www.collativelearning.com/FILMS%20reviews%20BY%20ROB%20AGER.html
Never heard of "Turn in Your Grave" so looked it up on IMBD. Directed by Rob Ager, WOAH!!! 6.1 rating, not too bad. Searched for it on my ROKU, didn't show up. Shucks!
none of stone's movies are historically accurate
and you have to take most of stone's personal experience claims with a grain of salt
I think you can say that of any film maker.
@@collativelearning only of those who claim to make movies based on historical fact. but stone is on another level. he is the george santos of filmmakers
this movie reminds me of "the eternal jew". same vibe.
Billy has already said that this movie is a fabrication. The cop who arrested him has an interview and he denied everything in the movie. This movie was a kind of revenge on the Turks after the Cyprus war. The only thing the movie can be praised for is its music, apart from that it is a racist movie that has nothing to do with reality. The funniest part is that this movie was awarded the Best adapted screenplay award by the academy.
This looks interesting! 😁
But have you _seen_ the movie Midnight Express…and…and how did it make you _feel_ ?
This is a good video.
I just wish that more of the Turkish characters spoke actual Turkish. Breaks the immersion somewhat.
Apparently learning and speaking Turkish is very difficult. My sister who is a very worldly person and learned different languages tried to learn Turkish with her Turkish husband, but it wasn't working so they proceed to communicate more in Spanish, lol
I don't speak Turkish so no immersion break for me.
@@collativelearning I don't speak it either but I learned from Alan Parker's DVD commentary that many of the actors portraying the Turks either didn't know the language or weren't very fluent. The guard that inspects Billy Hayes's bag at the start of the movie is actually speaking Armenian I believe lol.
@@FrankieTeardrop1998 Actually, been thinking of it today, you know the amusing cliche in old war movies of Nazi characters having posh British accents or speak in English all the way through? Never broke the immersion for me in those movies. There is also the modern show Chernobyl which was okay, it had the English actors who portray real Russian and Ukrainian people with the actors' own English accents because the makers didn't want the show to come off as cliched due to any attempts to imitate the Russian accents. So if these filmmakers are doing it, I can't see why Midnight Express shouldn't be an exception of this liberty.
@@collativelearningYes for YOU not for US
Dear Collative Learning,
What's your opinion on Kanye West's mental health collapse?
Is he faking all this or publicity, or his gone All Out Dixie (American South) Looney Tunes?
No idea, haven't been following it. I mostly think outside the sandbox of whatever the news media are waffling about.
Spoke to a guy who went to a Turkish jail back in the 80s. Can confirm he pretty much said they are pretty much like they were in that film.
I spoke to a guy also. Can confirm that this movie is all a lie.
@@Jb991-q9x his name was fikrit
@@cashless1980 you know they had open jails until about a decade ago?
I'm sure they aren't torturing folk in jail, but I was told of a few murders. Which isn't really that surprising in a jail.
@@curiositycloset2359 open jails.. murders in jail.. sounds like jails all over the world.. have you ever been in South American jails.. Asian.. or African jails.. even in the US.. they will rob and rape you..
@@cashless1980 kind of my point. Thanks
Begs the question. Fargo?
Deceptive but genius marketing. And the makers of the TV show had the balls to carry on the "True story" tagline even after everyone knows the original film was fiction 🤣
@@moviearchaeologist9655 my mother in law thought the tv show was true so it still catches a few people. Lol!
I like Fargo and it has some great themes. But I love The Man Who Wasn't There.
Classic.
Come on, Ager!
This is the first time I am diametrically opposed to this video.
I was young when this movie came out and heard the synopsis that he involved himself with drugs and thus was locked up.
I didn't bother to watch the movie regardless of his plight in prison.
Drugs were destroying the black community in the 80s, and as far i was confirmed, he deserved what he got.
Also, you criticizing the Turkish prison system is a joke!
Allow me to enlighten you, ALL PRISONS are tools of the dystopian governments.
They do not exist to lock up "bad" people but to scare the hell out the middle class to pay taxes and follow the rules of the Elites.
Men raping men and stabbing men in prison along with mental tortures by murderers, sodomites, rapists, and other vile human beings kept alive by the tax payers to feed, house, give medical and dental care, is just f madness while the poor are on the f streets.
Prisons are in the West, especially the USA, a prison industrial complex that profits from quotas.
No, I don't think drug users should be sent to jail, but that's why they are there for profit and bankrolling a
bunch of beauracratic bottom-feeders.
The argument that it's so inhumane to execute murderers, rapists, pedophiles, and kidnappers is f madness.
Responsibility
That's what's missing in society at all levels. Corporations and politicians blatantly disregard RESPONSIBILITY along with the rest of the citizens for the consequences of their actions.
God Almighty stated: Life for life!
Even in an accidental killing, the family of the victim had the right to go after the person who killed their relative and the only way that person can stay alive was to go to a sanctuary city and stay there until the High Priest died which could be lifetime or a mere short period of time.
This was a means to ingrain into every person that LIFE is sacred!!!!!!!
This is why society is collapsing as corruption spreads where people do not know what is right or wrong anymore.
God Almighty stated to Israel to get rid of the evil in their land!
This is why Israel was destroyed, which was a shadow picture of the world's fate that if evil is not eliminated, the world will collapse into utter annihilation as life is blatantly disregarded as being sacred.
This is why China, an atheistic nation, can murder innocent people at will. Millions of people murdered by atheistic men and women.
And if you cry out, religion also murdered millions and you are right because they were all cults, Judaism, which is not based on Torah, Islam, Christianity, even Buddhist resorting to violence as they did against Muslims.
Israel was to be a model nation of executing murderers, pedophiles, rapists, kidnappers, and other such vile men and women who have forfeited their humanity.
We are living in a dystopian world 🌎.
We are in a prison.
God allowed Jews to be enslaved in Egypt to show them that without the knowledge of Good and Evil and enforced by a holy and godly people, they would find themselves enslaved and murdered as well.
This is why God gave HIS TORAH, to destroy evil-doers but the Jews have fallen like Satan.
They failed to be our heroes and now, society is in chaos, praising evil as good and good as evil.
Demoncrats wanting to murder unborn babies and hacking off your sons dic**.
Praising perverse lifestyles today just as the Bible prophecied long ago.
Look at the cities of the West, once glorious and marvelous; the pinnacle of human civilization and now over run by drugged out lost souls and violence everywhere.
Ah, here we go again. Another respondent who didn't watch the video or didn't really listen :)
I stated in the video (and cited the writer and director's comments on this) that one of the themes in the film is that it's not just about the incidental Turkish prison setting. It's about prison injustices the world over, esp the ones Stone witnessed and experienced directly in the US.
As for your claim to "enlighten" me that all prisons are tools of oppression, wrong. I'll enlighten you instead. Prisons can and do get used as tools of oppression, but all of the evil traits present in governments are also present in the population generally (after all governments are just collections of people to begin with). There are individuals and groups in the general population whose crimes against others not only justify, but demand, forced segregation from the population. In fact your own approval of Billy Hayes getting a life sentence for a very small amount of a drug that's nowhere near as deadly as the ones that actually "destroy communities" is a contradiction with your dismissal of the entire prison system as "oppressive".
I agree Hayes was no angel, and I mentioned in the vid that he had smuggled multiple times and that I have doubts his own biography is completely honest.
So you didn't even watch the movie and you make a comment that long? LOL geez!
Erlik bildiğin bu videoyu kelime kelime kullanmış.
Sounds like Stone injected his liberal worldview and ideology into the film, which is the typical thing you'd expect a Hollywood writer to do. Does it make it more dramatic? Sure - but more specifically it moves the viewer to relate to his viewpoint only by misrepresenting what was a true story. In other words, it's hacky.
You don't have to agree with the viewpoints to enjoy a movie. There are many movies and video games I still like even though I disagree with some of its viewpoints like various pro-military war movies and games. But I don't see Midnight Express as a liberal film considering its raw depiction of the Turkish prison system (which many people mistakenly took as the film hating the entire Turkish culture).
@@moviearchaeologist9655 I agree that you don't have to agree with the viewpoint to enjoy the movie. Midnight Express was very enjoyable, but it really diminishes the artistic vision and themes portrayed by the movie. What would actually be fresh in the context of Hollywood is depicting a country who's victimized by drug smuggling and portraying the authoritarian government morally combating the issue - in other words, the opposite of what this movie was going for.
See, you ruin it for yourself by attaching an ideological label such as "liberal". In what way is it "liberal" for a writer to want to make the audience aware of prison system abuses? They do happen. It's worldwide. Why would you disapprove of it being drawn attention to?
@@collativelearning That's a pretty easy question to answer. Liberals and conservatives have different ideas of how a prison system should work and ubiquitously liberals aim for leniency in regards to crime and punishment where conservatives are more likely to be in favor of harsher rules and deterrence.
In other words, this movie paints a very subjective theme that is meant to condemn a foreign government for being more authoritarian (regardless if they have good reason to be or not). Oliver Stone insinuates that you will get raped by the guards (even if that didn't really happen). The point I'm making is that these artistic liberties taken for dramatic effect are predictable liberal tropes in the context of Hollywood.
It's also a little disingenuous to pretend as if the film is exclusively about prison abuse. Where is the prison abuse taking place again? Obviously there is a lot more going on which ties it all together politically and I think you're smart enough to know that. You don't win awards or recognition in Hollywood for praising authoritarian or conservative governments, do you? We all know which way the wind blows.
@@GamerWordDotNet Thanks for the expansion. I still disagree with the over-simplistic labels. For example, I believe in capital punishment for the absolute worst crimes like serial murder, but I go in the lenient direction regarding free speech and I'd probably legalize some rec drugs even though I don't use them myself. So I'm both a Conservative and a Liberal at the same time? By dropping ideological (in other words dropping biased assumptions of universality) positions you free yourself up to take each situation on its own merits.
I disagree with most of your descriptions of what the film insinuates. Imprisonment for life for a minor drug offense (not subjective, apparently this happened to the real Billy Hayes) being flat out wrong, I don't consider "subjective". That is the core injustice presented in the film and it was true. But as both Stone and Parker have explained, they viewed it as a universal statement against such imprisonment injustices everywhere. Stone even made that point in his Oscar reception for the script. To pass all that off as "liberal" or "conservative" or whatever other over-simplistic label you fancy, ignores the issue at hand.
In the video I presented my theory that Stone was using the Hayes story to vent his Vietnam War experience frustration, with supporting evidence. In his script for Platoon, which was already written before he adapted Midnight Express, he doesn't blame a foreign government. He is critical of the US, though personally I consider that film a bit one-sided because the Viet Cong did terrible stuff to their own people. And Stone explains that in deviating from the real Hayes story he was expressing his frustrations with his own incarceration within the US penal system. So why do you consider Midnight Express to be about condemning only the Turkish government?
You also claim the film tells the audience they will be raped by guards. Why would the audience assume that seeing one specific brutal guard character in one movie means that in a typical prison one gets raped by "the guards". Billy is in that prison for several years in the film and how many times is he raped?
I ask again, have you watched the video? ... because you seem to be ignoring all the info presented in it :)
Dear Mr Rob Ager, I love your analysis but i'm going to have to diasgree with you on one point. The movie is racist and I think moe on account of Oliver Stone than alan Parker. Oliver Stone's movie 'Alexander' portrays the Pesians very badly. He has the Persian army with cmels, as if they're Arabs, and when you see the Persian soldiers with their beards your hear flies in the background- implying they are unwashed and dirty people.
It's also racist because it omits facts like the fact that Persians employed Greek footsoldiers, as mercinaries but also as people angy at Alexander for conquering Greece. You can find this in the old 'Alexander the Great' movie, with Peter Kushing advising the Persian emperor on how best to fight Alexander. Oliver Stone also portrays Roxana in a bad way, like a wild jungle girl, played by an African American actress, when the girl was Central Asian. He portrays women badly in general in the movie, as temptresses and snakes, including Alexander's own mother played by Angelina Jolie as if she's a gypsy women with giant earings. When Alexander drinks the goblet of wine that seals his fate, you see his mother's image in it, with her hair looks like Medusa's.
You can not justify the appalling bigotry in this movie by pretending it is about criticizing Turkish prisons.
There is nothing wrong with criticizing Turkey's prison system, and by the way most Americans who served prison time in Turkey refused a deal that would have had them serve in the US instead because they were more afraid of the American prison system-it is much more violent.
What is awful is how an entire nations is deliberately depicted as violent and bestial.
Why? because some two bit experienced drug trafficker realized his white privilege didn't travel with him overseas, and (gasp), daddy couldn't bribe the Turkish judge to set his son free.
This is not a movie.
This is just.
PROPAGANDA.
Rifki!!!!
Most Turks in my country don't like this movie.
Dishonest hypocritical sadistic manipulative movie that completely ignored the appalling American prison system filled with poor people serving obscenely long sentences for possession of small amounts of drug.
"movie that completely ignored the appalling American prison system filled with poor people serving obscenely long sentences for possession of small amounts of drug."
wtf are you talking about? This movie actually brought some attention to the similar bullshit system that was in place in the US, and opened some eyes... and some minds.
Si Vous Play
Why are you anti-CC. You act like you have to type them yourself. Usually when people don't want them, they don't want their words analyzed or disagreed with. Very juvenile don't you think?
Why do you mistakenly assume I'm anti-CC? YT should generate them automatically but it doesn't. I have to wait a while after upload for YT to generate them, but then manually tell it to actually include it in the vid. I often forget. Rather juvenile of you to think people who don't have them don't want their words analyzed when their words can be heard anyway.
one of the most racist and hateful movies ever made. also worth keeping the geopolitical climate in mind since at the time. In 1974 the illegal greek attempt to ethnically cleanse cyprus of its Turkish Muslim community in order to annex the island led to a war in which the Turks defeated the Greeks. This movie got lots of its financing from the greek/armenian community in order to slander the Turks after being bitter over losing a war the greeks started. The massacres by the greeks against the Muslim Turks started in Christmas and is called bloody christmas by the Turkic Cypriots. Also worth pointing out that the bad/ugly Turks in this are played by greek/armenian actors predominately. I don't actually think the film even stars one ethnic Turk in it. Its a shame you white washed this movie and its real intentions. Also worth pointing out at the time that Britain and France as well as the soviet union threatend Turkey not to intervene and the USA placed various embargoes against Turkiye over it. To understand this movie you have to understand the time frame in which it was made. Nasty film making if were being absolutely honest.
One of the most reactive, jump the gun without watching the video comments ever posted.
Ah, you expanded your comment from merely "one of the most racist and hateful movies ever made." What's your source for the Greek financing claim? Not that it would change the fact that Turkey has been criticized by human rights organizations then and now for it's human rights abuses and prison system.
Also, have you actually watched the video yet?
Not even that racist a film, never thought anything of it at the time, anyway.
Is it frankly any worse than any American film made about the American penal system?
@@collativelearning I also find the timing of this video very suspicious. Just as we have the Quran burning incident in sweden directed towards Turkiye and Muslims, this video pops up celebrating a work of pure hate. Most nations on earth have human rights abuses, go look at auditing in the UK for example where police routinely and daily trample on our rights, of the USA police murdering its own people, not to mention the brutality of the prison system there. This doesn't include the human rights abuses we have committed over seas like the invasion of iraq. Yes Turkiye has human rights issues, but that doesnt take away from the nature of the movie. This movie was designed from top to bottom to slander an entire race. By jumping on "muh human rights" to justify, you are aiding the wholesale prejudice towards a specific ethnicity. The movie is nearly entirely bullshit fabricated nonsense, you can have find the guy giving interviews in Turkiye where he says as much. But what we cannot deny is how the Turks and Muslims are portrayed in such a racist propaganda type of way. But at least you appreciate it. If you ever made an effort to see how Turks are portrayed in Hollywood, its nearly always entirely negative.
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Nice cant wait to watch
Another greay vid. Be sure to plug your other content more often