"usually" it is always next patch after, but that was not the point. My point was that they are not going to add it at all, because "everyone will get it, when sq42 releases".@@Akluin30
mentioning MW was a great way to talk roles. it solidified my understanding of what you were saying. I knew what you meant, but being a stompy robot jock my self it was like LIGHT BULB.
@@XeroStateLIVE nice I still dabble in MWO I usually play Mad Dog, Shadow Cat, and Battlemaster and sometimes a raven either EMS with tag laser to scout
My guy. You're EXACTLY on point with max speed for the F8 Lightning. It's got an excellent weapons package and strong shields which (as Avenger mentions) is balanced by a slower turn rate to disadvantage it in dogfighting. Trouble is it ALSO has speed enough to outpace even some dedicated interceptors which makes it VERY powerful in the PU. That speed is where it oversteps and becomes OP for a heavy role fighter IMO. Bring the max speed down and you still have a very capable heavy fighter that doesn't step on the toes of other fighters in their roles.
I didn't expect much as I started listening this episode as I'm mainly a peaceful miner myself but after maybe half an hour in I found myself just fully focusing on every word. The thing is that I've never found passion towards combat piloting anything anywhere but I do like being a turret gunner. I don't have much time to play nowadays so deep dive into new gameplay loop is not really an option. That being said master modes really sounds like it could make it easier for folks like myself to learn a new trick or two to not just survive heated situations but actually engage and win some. Master Modes was never something I was really looking forward to until now. I do know both these gentlemen but I hardly ever watch their content. Today I learned that they both have the gift of sharing their enthusiasm and I will definitely check more of their content in the future. Really awesome episode! Would love to hear another 2 or why not 4 hours of you guys chatting about SC combat or whatever.
@SpaceTomato ... You really do a great job when you have guest on your Tomato talks. You have a real natural talent in what you do. Simply amazing. Keep up the great work. It makes me wish I had both the talent and the knowledge of the game of you to where I could create one. But sadly, I'm not in the place in my life to where I can yet. Maybe one day, but always a breath of fresh air watching your Tomato Verse. I built my computer last summer just to play SC because I love space, Sci-Fi and the unknowns of doing something truly immersive. But I was already excited times 10X playing this game but watching you over the year my interest and passion of wanting to learn and understand more about SC has increased 100x thanks to your content alone. Both Avenger and Xero brought up great points on both sides. I enjoyed how Avenger went really deep in depth with comparisons and you could see the engagement that they could relate or see one another's different viewpoints. This was a show of 3 people that really just want to see SC continue to grow and evolve while just sharing a passion for SC. One of the best things said: I will also agree with Avenger, "it's not the ship it's the pilot controlling the ship that makes the difference." The cat and dog on Avengers background was priceless at times, they were like hey.. we're part of the Avengers too lol.
I as a vet space engineers and war thunder (realistic) pilot am actually horrified by master modes, i love the current flight model, even if im a novice pilot (recently tried pirate swarm, made it trough to the first hammerhead solo in my new f8 (died afterwards due to not completely making it through its shields even though i kept allive quite long for having a fully manned hammerhead focusing me) whizzing around other ships in decoupled is just so fun with the current speed system, and having the afterburners is just the kick you need, ikk miss them
I am a King Crab type of guy, so I love the Ares Ion/Inferno. I was always hoping for a Gauss gun on the Ion, considering the Ares was always a platform made to target larger ships; having the capacity to kill components with a ballistic weapon made more sense.
Stranger, i like this idea 1000%. Or make the ion a distortion cannon that specializes in taking out shield facings. In either case give it a niche, Would fit the name as well according to star wars rules
Great convo! Ares all the way! Balanced or unbalance....do whatever you want this ship is ME! I will find a way based on the ship upgrades and strong points and capitalize on THAT! Back in the day of Ace Combat 4,5,6,&7 I was always a F-16, and was able to beat all air craft and the game. Like Bill Murry was taught.....YOU HAVD TO BE THE BALL! Be one with your ship no matter what you have.
I had to come and comment because I definitely want to see more conversations like this! Such a good podcast! Thank you SpaceTomato, Avenger, and Zero!
I don't think I Xerostate used the best mech to compare to a F8 (clan mechs would be better, expensive and require skill to bring out full lazor mech action like a Timber Wolf) but loved hearing Battletech talk. Great conversation as a whole too.
The Ion's gun was fine. The ship was too maneuverable. Personally I would have had the Ion's gun fire slower and hit harder. So you might get ONE shot at that little agile ship, but if you miss you're dead.
I always like to answer the "what's it's role" question or counter the "but, it won't be good against..." statement with lore perspective, Then, with that as the baseline perspective, look at how it might actually be used by players in the game and whether the in-game ship meets or misses what it's lore role is. So, the role of the F8 is be a hard counter to the Glaive.
Tomato, you r a PERFECT host - don't miss any nuance, dig deep, form contextual questions (like you heard "complaints" - and instantly ask what are those). KUDOS BRO! ❤🍅
Super glad for this conversation. I have felt this way about the f8 since day one, its kindof jack of all trades and master of none and I love it for that. I truly hope they don't ruin it by trying to appease all of whiners out there that haven't actually tested the ship vs other fighters. Thanks for the EDUCATED opinions guys, I hope this video spreads!
Came over from audio just to comment. I love hearing two apex predators arguing FOR the benefit of the little guy. I was skeptical about the F8C when it came out, but after looking at it and seeing the positive changes to the F7C that has made that ship viable. I think the F8C doesn't seem that oppressive. It is very good, as it should be, but not meta-breaking. Plus, I have a friend in Avenger squadron that has been giving me first-hand accounts of the testing they have been doing with it, and his honest opinion aligns exactly with Avenger_One's, that the F8C has a solid role in a mixed wing but not the DEFINING role.
I liken this conversation to the one around the F-35. The Air Force still retains a diverse fighter and bomber inventory for dedicated tasks. The F-35 does not excel in every task, but it is more than capable to fill the role in several. In that way, the F8C (or, A variant rather for UAE usage) is the perfect 'all around' military platform for the UAE. We still don't even know what Capitals will look like in the future, what strike package the UAE likes to field for a standard operation, or even the Vandul capabilities. The F8A may be perfect for the UAE, and the F8C just great for your average PU enjoyer.
01:09:53 Ding Ding this man wins a prize. I have said it before the filght model is done. It is baked into SQ42 and that we say is that. It will come to the PTU. I am sure as Avenger said some tuning to values will be made. But the idea of another flight refactor is out the window. CIG needed to define the flight model in order to complete SQ42 and there is no turning back.
agreed and master modes is a good model.. but it definitely needs tuning and some changes to it but we will also sort of need to see how other ships are affected by master mode and be able to test them over just the gladius
He's not ignoring it, he's well aware. He was just talking from what the current balance is and not what it will be as that will all change. They may fix the bug or they might leave it until the inevitable MM rebalance
I love this conversation thanks guys I love my f8 not for the power but how it looks and it’s multi-role position. And it looks like my favorite space ship from my childhood. Gradius Victory Viper
This is fantastic I'm glad I found these videos. I would love more videos like this. I personally really enjoyed master modes when I was in the PTU, I tend to naturally maneuver my ship as if it was that more linear flying so when I got into master modes and be able keep at SCM and only boost when I wanted to instead of having to fiddle with my mouse wheel if I needed to go faster, I felt I was able to do much better. I was even able to hold my own with a more experienced player on sticks while I was on mouse and keyboard. I also agree that the lightning is in a good spot right now. It's taking me a bit to get used to but I do feel in beginning to play more to it's strengths naturally. I'ma take a look at Avengers core videos and hopefully be able to get that much better at flying this thing.
I really like your podcasts. They are always pretty informative but not S dry as others. I am also on the page of Avenger. What he described about how MMs effect combat in general is pretty much how i think they work. Sure there will be a lot of tweaking and auto aim in turrets need to go. There is just no reason why a single fighter should ever beat a Hammerhead. No matter how good the pilot is.... unless all turret gunners are AFK. Also small ships should never ever single handedly beat large or cap ships. That is what groups are for. And the counter to "than the big ship always wins" is easy: in a single seater, you do not have to attack a large ship and have every possibility to avoid combat completely.
@@SpaceTomatoToo little side note: about the "aweful" Cutlass steele, i actually plan on getting one for myself ingame, for those passenger transports "outback and bush flyer" style. Also i really hope to see some "evacuate people from an outpost overrun by pyro crabs" missions in the future. Having that many seats on such a small foorprint is most probably an advantage, and you can still have 7 gunners to help you out. Its not a combat ship, but a perfect ship for that kind of missions.
1:22:15 Turning off your engines while you're going really fast in a vacuum and you slow down, with no thrust to slow you down, somehow. That's the only thing that really bothers me there
The Ares Ion was great when they released it, the only thing it needed a bit of cutting back of the maneuvering, slowing down the fire rate another 20%, and introduce a small 1meter spread to the canon.. and these would have kept the fire power but would have given enough hurdles so sniping down small fighters would be really hard.
Avenger_One have some good points and bad points there. 1) Yes, all ships plays a role and the tuning of ships should be based on roles. 2) Gladius and the other light fighters are not suppose to be the best dog fighting ships out there. They are light fighters and should be fighting in packs rather than solo wins all. Look at the dinosaurs, Raptors.. can 1 take down a Large prey? NO.. it cannot.. but it hunt in packs.. this is HOW.. light fighters should be.. The majority of players and developers are probably not seeing the role of light fighters the way i see it.
Regarding balance, we're closer to getting a huge new variable that most players ignored. Why use X bigger ship when we could use 2 or 3 smaller Y ships? When I see that question, which is usually just an insult at the larger or multi crew ship and not an actual question, I point out that at some point, the "better" smaller ship might run out of gas or require a much bigger ship to carry it where a person wants to use it.
The thing is the F8 was specifically designed to run down fast targets and use small windows of opportunity to unleash as much firepower as possible. I dont see any balance changes removing its high speed (completely). If were talking ship roles, that is the essence of what we should expect for the F8.
As an Industry player, I will always run because not in a fighter. This leads into the other problem as there is no economy which can allow me to hire consistently fighter protection on the 1 in 20 times I actually run into pirate players. This is the reason why we don't see these battles. Avenger_One sees them because he goes looking. The poor C2 or Caterpillar crew is just trying to make a living rather than get pirated and blown up.
I"ve had the same thoughts. And whats more, how would you like to be that escort who was hired to protect a cargo ship and your game play is quietly flying from point a to point b in your fancy fighter? Might be easy money but it won't be engaging game play for a fighter pilot. It's going to be a job for friends.
@@lucaslightbane Exactly, Plus trying to find fighter escort as a single is impossible in the chat because it is boring duty. The only people who have escorts are orgs or large friend groups because escorting is a way to hang out and not really a job. No one wants to be bored. So, this leads that single or two person ships need to have a mechanism which to disengage at least 30-40% or time. I do not want a get out of jail free card but rather an opportunity which can be had by skill.
Very well done tomato. very interesting conversation, sometimes funny. tomato the filthy dogfight casual (like me) together with those 2 HC dogfighters. take my sub.
I mean, light fighters are also super short range, carrier dependent, and can be killed with very little time on target from said heavy and medium fighters.
Believe it or not, F8C is at the right spot, It is not OP. Totally agree with Avenger One on this. I lose almost all fights in F8C against light fighters unless the pilot is a noob. But it is fun to fly F8C, especially against NPCs. I hope that CIG won't touch F8C without getting proper feedback from players. F8C is also supposed to be "an air superiority fighter". I can't even compare it to Vanguard since Vanguard doesn't have any problem handling light fighters on its own.
My Orgs been stress testing it and fighters vs it a fair bit and I'd have to agree. The F8 across 3 bouts 2 vs Scorp and 1 vs a Hurricane lost every bout. But you change pilots and all of a sudden the tables can flip.
We need a Capture the flag mode in AC. Like Century: Age Of Ashes, it would force those cinematic chase moments. Doing that in an asteroid field would be awesome.
The F8 has been shown with fleets and capital ships every time it's been shown. It doesn't get shown alone. From my understanding, the F8 is like the Gladius and meant more for fleet/capital defense.
It was designed to target the faster, more heavily armored vanduul fighters. You know, the ships whose pilot can survive greater g forces than humans? Whose ships were designed to ram ship blades into enemy fighter's and cut them in half? It's a counter fighter, space superiority. It's intended to dominate dogfights one on one.
It's been in lore as one of the best ships and now it comes in and it is, can't understand how anyone is surprised. There had to be one at the top and this is the one.
1:05:50 Re, experience X in Star Citizen In the actual game, there will be a lot of ai ships. That gives cig the opportunity to tune the ai with various personalities in addition to skill levels and likely ship load outs based on those factors. Sure, it's not PvP, but it does afford the opportunity for the game to provide varied experiences for players of all skill levels piloting different ships. While the ai is supposed to be "real" and always simulated (ie not just pooping into existence but starting somewhere and going somewhere to do something and just not physically rendered when no player is in range), it wouldn't take much to sometimes tweak the ai "player" the first time they are detected based on what human player they encountered, in what ship, and with what combat history. The pros in the panel might meet a very different ai than a casual player in a sub optimal ship with few combat engagements. I'm not a fan of ALWAYS scaling ai to the player and in SC it could only be done first time that ai is encountered. Everyone likes a fun easy fight now and then and a fight you have to run from reminds us there's always a bigger fish.
I have no problem with tricording, but these tiny man-thruster should have overheated quite fast...but they didn't and then we had strange RC-drone movements.
Great talk! I was skeptical about Master Modes, but it sounds pretty good. I am worried about Squadron 42 if fully implementation is so far away. Like, having set pieces and dialogue trees does not a good flight sim make. They need to have well-balanced and engaging missions, which they can't do if they don't have their flight model and ship tuning cemented in place.
@@Dorm_ Its core is a flight sim like Wing Commander or Freelancer, and it has expanded into other space stuff. And we are talking about Squadron 42, which is even closer to Wing Commander.
The point A One is making is that when something is multi-role and good at several things but with higher costs such as price, room and skill requirement, it MUST be better than average at each of the roles, because having your performance spread across different fields means you get out-performed in each role by a specialized unit, which is fine, but it can't be too extreme or it becomes worthless. Balancing across different player skill levels is an absolute bane in PVP. Blitzcrank in League of Legends comes to my mind, where simply because of the mechanics that hero uses, he is absolutely OP on low skill levels and really weak on high skill levels. They couldn't just adjust numbers to change that, they would have to change him mechanically and possibly destroy his identity. But another thing most people don't get is that you can't release balanced anything. If it releases in a balanced state, you are ultra lucky, because even balancing something after release is extremely challenging. So when you already know released stuff will be unbalanced, all you can do is decide which side you are more likely to err on, stronger or weaker, and it just has more benefits to overtune something a little than to undertune it. More people will buy it = more money, more people will play it = more data on how to balance it + something new to enjoy using.
Ideal balancing is based on a curve. You want things to be worse and things to be better, but you want things to make sense. In a game like SC, the bell curve SHOULD be managed by the ships class and intended role. You shouldn't expect a ship like the ion or the inferno to behave the same way as the f8c when the f8c is meant to dominate light and medium fighter's in squad combat and the ion and inferno are meant to be paired to abuse capital ships.
@@ThreeGoddesses exactly and despite that the skill of the pilot in light fighters can definitely win out against a less skilled f8 pilot and mediums even have a chance as well depending. The f8 is going to struggle against heavies and something like the vanguard while its more maneuverable a good vanguard and gunner pilot will probably trump a less skilled or even decently skilled f8 pilot.
I don't understand why combat discussions tend to neglect the fact that a significant part of the player base are solo and PVE players. There seems to be a misconception, that PVE and solo players do not do combat. They do - against NPCs. All balancing and ship designs have to take that into consideration. I am certain many player who fly the F8 now are using them in PVE bounty and other missions and will keep doing so. This has an effect on how ships have to be designed. I don't think CIG are designing ships specifically for S-tier players. CIG has to consider that part of the player base that spends a lot but is not interested in regular gameplay with an org, people with jobs, family and a life, who are the ones buying the expensive stuff, because they don't have the time for grinding. Neglecting those would be a huge blow for SC's funding. I am one of those and I like the F8 for it's versatility in PVE bounty missions. I also think we will see many more opportunities to acquire the F8 in the future, since CIG very well knows that this is a money maker. This is the main reason why they made it available now, kicking the big spenders in the nuts...
It's not even the best bounty hunter right now. As you and a1 said it's strength is in its versatility but big target bounties are still done more efficiently with an ares or eclipse.
So I agree with this, but what kind of balancing for PvE do you have in mind that is entirely distinct from PvP balancing? It seems like a combat ship that is well-balanced for PvP is going to be balanced for PvE as well. Having said that, where I see PvE balancing coming in is in regards to the balancing of multirole ships that aren't used for PvP (Nomad, Lancer, Cutty, Avenger, 300 series). I think these ships could use passes in regards to each other in the PvE context (why would I ever fly a 325a as opposed to the cheaper Avenger), and the dedicated fighters almost entirely being considered in terms of PvP.
@@MrClassytangerine I mean you gotta be clear. An Ares or Eclipse is best for VHRT and above, but it is gonna struggle up to that point. The F8C is exceptional for anything up to that point and ok against VHRT and above. I would rate the F8C as the second-best OVERALL (behind the Harbinger) with your examples being way better at high tiers.
Won't the F8 top speed issue be resolved with Master Modes? By the time it switches over to even reach it's top speed, try and get away from an Arrow it won't be able to outrun the dps.
All the Ships are In a alpha State . Means That once all the vanduul are in and there is more Star Systems are in i think there will be a massive pass in Pre Beta Phase That they start to bring up ships to a Golden Standard , but until then it will always Have lows and highs and that's fine , we are also doing a lot of play time now to help Devs look out for that stuff for the Best future ways to make ships more viable . it will take a few years maybe after sq42 is out before we start seeing Pre Beta Changes .
My biggest issue with how COG "balances" is how often they depart from the "systemic" method of building things. Instead of creating ships with interactive parts that combine to create an output based on their performance, they choose a "target" performance metric and then kludge the ship into it with fake parameters. Just be systemic about it, use real physical values for everything.
It's no different than the allure of people wanting to 'build' an F7A out of an F7C. CiG has stated they intend to make it 'possible,' bit difficult/time consuming. F8C will likely be no different.
I'm 100% with Avenger__One, the F8 isn't overpowered, all other heavy fighter have a disadvantage flown solo, but an advantage with a gunner, and usually in real scenarios as a fighter you're protecting a larger ship, so you can't just disengage.
I will never understand why avenger one gets so much hate. He articulated perfectly how I feel about the current flight model and the great potential of master modes.
The fact that laser cannons are half the speed of repeaters tells you everything you need to know about the people behind the balance. IE, they have absolutely no idea what they are doing.
The F8C is the first fighter I feel is not artificial nerved (yet). Make other ships perform to its role instead of nerving ships that fullfill their role.
Some ships SHOULD be better than others in the same role. That's why they command a higher UEC price, and a major part of progression in the game. The ship sales model distracts from that.
It's so nice to hear highly respected star citizen content creatie saying the same words I've been saying for almost 10 years about how the ships should really fly. I always used to say the Elite Dangerous flight model is how ships should fly. The amount of backlash I used to get for even mentioning ED was insane. And now after all this time it looks like CIG is doing the right thing.
Master modes is fine for combat with ships that are combat ships. When you find yourself in a non combat ship being targeted by a combat ship of any kind…you will die. You want to run? No shields, you don’t have armor on your HullA so you die. Are you in a Miner and get jumped by a Hornet? Try to fight? You are dead, try to run? Switch to master modes to run, shields drop and…yep you die.
I say have Master Mode and then give the pilot the option to turn Master Mode off if you achieve a certain level of flight skill. Fantastic Conversation and I agree a lot of what Avenger one is talking about.
If you look at the air force you see multiple ship designs depending on what roll needs filled. The FA8 Lightning is like getting the new F35 and saying that all other fighters are obsolete now. When in fact you put it up against an F16 in a dogfight it will still loose. I think CIG can do a better job of defining what the roll of each fighter will be. And I agree armor is going to be a game changer and I hope to see it sooner rather than later. Seeing military variants of regular ships that have more armor is going to be interesting.
Problem is that they are trying to make a space SIM, and they are trying to push for realism, but also it's a game and they need it to be fun enough to bring people in.
My main concern is... Shields go down in "navigation mode" right? And if you are not fighting you never have an incentive to go out of "navigation mode". So are shields now worthless for non combatants?
Well if you get interdicted or have to stop somewhere that isn't completely safe you are going to want to be in SCM mode. Cruise mode will only be safe when you are traveling at high speed. I assume that atmosphere will still limit speeds as well so you should be alot more vulnerable there as well
@@MrClassytangerine currently when you switch from nav to scm you speed slows rapidly and i mean rapidly to the cruise speed but weapons and shields are online immediately however changing from scm to nav well weapons are off instantly and speed doesn't immediately go up nor is it that rapid but shields take time to shut off and deplete, you need to boost and hold boost for a few seconds when you do by the time you get into full nav mode your speed is let you get away fairly easily by the time the other has a chance to catch up outside of some circumstances or ships and they won't be able to catch up because their top speed in full boost is roughly halved or more and you can accelerate very fast in nav mode. But at the same time it is concerning in some manners so tuning is going to be key to see what happens.
Changing my comment because I've said it elsewhere but also because I think I have a better position anyways. Avenger 1 is talking about whether or not things are balanced at the peak of skill in combat. This is fair, he has experience but he is avidly avoiding the topic about how balancing works IF you only consider balance from the top. You do not balance a game for sweats or the hardcore players because these players will take a crumb and turn it into a knife. IF you do, you end up in a scenario where ONLY the hardcore players can approach your game with any confidence at all. This is fine in terms of competitive games, one off instanced matches where every detail of the game is tied to high skill ceilings to allow for professional play at an international level. Games like League of Legends, for example, balance primarily from the top for this reason. Star Citizen is NOT this type of game. IF you balance an MMO from the top, however, you cause problems. The game becomes inaccessible, the balance creates many unnecessary quit points for new players, and it encourages power creep to dial itself in far to quickly. You end up having to fight the players by making the game more complicated purely to satisfy their need for challenge as they get better with the tools you provide, and this creates a game environment that's hostile to people trying to learn how to play. He is also ignoring its overall fit outside of the pvp environment. How does a fighter as lethal as the F8C feel when its bearing down on you in your vulture? Your Corsair? A C1? You cannot ONLY consider how a ship feels at the top. Or purely in pvp, either.
This is a highly productive conversation thanks for haveing me on
Had fun holding down JT with some of your boys the other day, friendly bunch I had a blast. 💥
F8 is pay 2 win by definition, since you can only get it by paying, since they are not going to add it to the buyable ship pool in the next patch.
They never add a ship in the pool just after made it buyable, it's usually 2,3 or 4 patchs later
"usually" it is always next patch after, but that was not the point. My point was that they are not going to add it at all, because "everyone will get it, when sq42 releases".@@Akluin30
@@satanicdude I killed a f8 last night with my Connie. Doesn’t seem too p2w to me
This was a great conversation that definitely widened my perspective! Thank you for having us, Tomato! o7
mentioning MW was a great way to talk roles. it solidified my understanding of what you were saying. I knew what you meant, but being a stompy robot jock my self it was like LIGHT BULB.
LOVE YOU FOR MENTIONING MECHWARRIOR!! Mad Dog /Vulture is still my favorite mech since mechwarrior 4
@@TheGlassSword I am a MW lover, I admit.
Mauler MX-90 from MW5:Mercs was a boatload of fun
@@XeroStateLIVE nice I still dabble in MWO I usually play Mad Dog, Shadow Cat, and Battlemaster and sometimes a raven either EMS with tag laser to scout
My guy. You're EXACTLY on point with max speed for the F8 Lightning. It's got an excellent weapons package and strong shields which (as Avenger mentions) is balanced by a slower turn rate to disadvantage it in dogfighting. Trouble is it ALSO has speed enough to outpace even some dedicated interceptors which makes it VERY powerful in the PU. That speed is where it oversteps and becomes OP for a heavy role fighter IMO. Bring the max speed down and you still have a very capable heavy fighter that doesn't step on the toes of other fighters in their roles.
I didn't expect much as I started listening this episode as I'm mainly a peaceful miner myself but after maybe half an hour in I found myself just fully focusing on every word.
The thing is that I've never found passion towards combat piloting anything anywhere but I do like being a turret gunner. I don't have much time to play nowadays so deep dive into new gameplay loop is not really an option.
That being said master modes really sounds like it could make it easier for folks like myself to learn a new trick or two to not just survive heated situations but actually engage and win some.
Master Modes was never something I was really looking forward to until now. I do know both these gentlemen but I hardly ever watch their content. Today I learned that they both have the gift of sharing their enthusiasm and I will definitely check more of their content in the future.
Really awesome episode! Would love to hear another 2 or why not 4 hours of you guys chatting about SC combat or whatever.
This is one of the best SC interviews ever made. So informative and broadened my understanding of the gameplay. Well done.
Thank you! I think it was a very good talk, glad you enjoyed it :D
@@SpaceTomatoToo I have to agree, the topic got very well explained so even a normal citizen could understand the arguments.
Great conversation. AV's comments were spot on. The F8 was fun, but it's just part of a well balanced fleet.
@SpaceTomato ... You really do a great job when you have guest on your Tomato talks. You have a real natural talent in what you do. Simply amazing. Keep up the great work. It makes me wish I had both the talent and the knowledge of the game of you to where I could create one. But sadly, I'm not in the place in my life to where I can yet. Maybe one day, but always a breath of fresh air watching your Tomato Verse. I built my computer last summer just to play SC because I love space, Sci-Fi and the unknowns of doing something truly immersive. But I was already excited times 10X playing this game but watching you over the year my interest and passion of wanting to learn and understand more about SC has increased 100x thanks to your content alone.
Both Avenger and Xero brought up great points on both sides. I enjoyed how Avenger went really deep in depth with comparisons and you could see the engagement that they could relate or see one another's different viewpoints. This was a show of 3 people that really just want to see SC continue to grow and evolve while just sharing a passion for SC.
One of the best things said: I will also agree with Avenger, "it's not the ship it's the pilot controlling the ship that makes the difference."
The cat and dog on Avengers background was priceless at times, they were like hey.. we're part of the Avengers too lol.
💯
Big love for Mechwarrior. If Star Citizen makes it there in terms of ship balance I'll be ecstatic!
I as a vet space engineers and war thunder (realistic) pilot am actually horrified by master modes, i love the current flight model, even if im a novice pilot (recently tried pirate swarm, made it trough to the first hammerhead solo in my new f8 (died afterwards due to not completely making it through its shields even though i kept allive quite long for having a fully manned hammerhead focusing me) whizzing around other ships in decoupled is just so fun with the current speed system, and having the afterburners is just the kick you need, ikk miss them
I am a King Crab type of guy, so I love the Ares Ion/Inferno. I was always hoping for a Gauss gun on the Ion, considering the Ares was always a platform made to target larger ships; having the capacity to kill components with a ballistic weapon made more sense.
Stranger, i like this idea 1000%. Or make the ion a distortion cannon that specializes in taking out shield facings. In either case give it a niche, Would fit the name as well according to star wars rules
Xero has the best takes. Love that guy's clear thinking and perspective.
Great convo! Ares all the way! Balanced or unbalance....do whatever you want this ship is ME! I will find a way based on the ship upgrades and strong points and capitalize on THAT! Back in the day of Ace Combat 4,5,6,&7 I was always a F-16, and was able to beat all air craft and the game. Like Bill Murry was taught.....YOU HAVD TO BE THE BALL! Be one with your ship no matter what you have.
Super interesting conversation, I would have happily listened to this for another hour or three.
I had to come and comment because I definitely want to see more conversations like this! Such a good podcast! Thank you SpaceTomato, Avenger, and Zero!
I don't think I Xerostate used the best mech to compare to a F8 (clan mechs would be better, expensive and require skill to bring out full lazor mech action like a Timber Wolf) but loved hearing Battletech talk. Great conversation as a whole too.
The Ion's gun was fine. The ship was too maneuverable. Personally I would have had the Ion's gun fire slower and hit harder. So you might get ONE shot at that little agile ship, but if you miss you're dead.
Agreed. Give it the Corsair's "One pass" doctrine, but crank that to 11
I always like to answer the "what's it's role" question or counter the "but, it won't be good against..." statement with lore perspective,
Then, with that as the baseline perspective, look at how it might actually be used by players in the game and whether the in-game ship meets or misses what it's lore role is.
So, the role of the F8 is be a hard counter to the Glaive.
Tomato, you r a PERFECT host - don't miss any nuance, dig deep, form contextual questions (like you heard "complaints" - and instantly ask what are those). KUDOS BRO! ❤🍅
I love your flexibility with the time. This was a phenomenal conversation.
The pokemon reference for the new flight model was hilariously spot on 😂
Damn that was fun! Tomato you should host the Avenger_Xero-Show every week or so :D
Super glad for this conversation. I have felt this way about the f8 since day one, its kindof jack of all trades and master of none and I love it for that. I truly hope they don't ruin it by trying to appease all of whiners out there that haven't actually tested the ship vs other fighters. Thanks for the EDUCATED opinions guys, I hope this video spreads!
A1 was spot on with every single take in this stream.
Love the Battletech analogy, makes total sense.
Came over from audio just to comment. I love hearing two apex predators arguing FOR the benefit of the little guy. I was skeptical about the F8C when it came out, but after looking at it and seeing the positive changes to the F7C that has made that ship viable. I think the F8C doesn't seem that oppressive. It is very good, as it should be, but not meta-breaking. Plus, I have a friend in Avenger squadron that has been giving me first-hand accounts of the testing they have been doing with it, and his honest opinion aligns exactly with Avenger_One's, that the F8C has a solid role in a mixed wing but not the DEFINING role.
I liken this conversation to the one around the F-35. The Air Force still retains a diverse fighter and bomber inventory for dedicated tasks. The F-35 does not excel in every task, but it is more than capable to fill the role in several. In that way, the F8C (or, A variant rather for UAE usage) is the perfect 'all around' military platform for the UAE. We still don't even know what Capitals will look like in the future, what strike package the UAE likes to field for a standard operation, or even the Vandul capabilities. The F8A may be perfect for the UAE, and the F8C just great for your average PU enjoyer.
01:09:53 Ding Ding this man wins a prize. I have said it before the filght model is done. It is baked into SQ42 and that we say is that. It will come to the PTU. I am sure as Avenger said some tuning to values will be made. But the idea of another flight refactor is out the window. CIG needed to define the flight model in order to complete SQ42 and there is no turning back.
agreed and master modes is a good model.. but it definitely needs tuning and some changes to it but we will also sort of need to see how other ships are affected by master mode and be able to test them over just the gladius
Star Citizen combat and MechWarrior/Battletech in the same stream? Hell yeah
A1s F8C vs Hornet discussion ignores the fact that the Hornet boost is broken AF right now.
Was thinking the same thing
He's not ignoring it, he's well aware. He was just talking from what the current balance is and not what it will be as that will all change. They may fix the bug or they might leave it until the inevitable MM rebalance
I love this conversation thanks guys I love my f8 not for the power but how it looks and it’s multi-role position. And it looks like my favorite space ship from my childhood. Gradius Victory Viper
This is fantastic I'm glad I found these videos. I would love more videos like this. I personally really enjoyed master modes when I was in the PTU, I tend to naturally maneuver my ship as if it was that more linear flying so when I got into master modes and be able keep at SCM and only boost when I wanted to instead of having to fiddle with my mouse wheel if I needed to go faster, I felt I was able to do much better. I was even able to hold my own with a more experienced player on sticks while I was on mouse and keyboard. I also agree that the lightning is in a good spot right now. It's taking me a bit to get used to but I do feel in beginning to play more to it's strengths naturally. I'ma take a look at Avengers core videos and hopefully be able to get that much better at flying this thing.
"Why is everyone flying the F8?" Because it's new and everyone who has one is excited about it! Simple.
I really like your podcasts. They are always pretty informative but not S dry as others.
I am also on the page of Avenger. What he described about how MMs effect combat in general is pretty much how i think they work. Sure there will be a lot of tweaking and auto aim in turrets need to go.
There is just no reason why a single fighter should ever beat a Hammerhead. No matter how good the pilot is.... unless all turret gunners are AFK. Also small ships should never ever single handedly beat large or cap ships. That is what groups are for. And the counter to "than the big ship always wins" is easy: in a single seater, you do not have to attack a large ship and have every possibility to avoid combat completely.
Glad you enjoy them and appreciate the feedback. This combat model has some cool possibilities.
Cheers!
@@SpaceTomatoToo little side note: about the "aweful" Cutlass steele, i actually plan on getting one for myself ingame, for those passenger transports "outback and bush flyer" style.
Also i really hope to see some "evacuate people from an outpost overrun by pyro crabs" missions in the future. Having that many seats on such a small foorprint is most probably an advantage, and you can still have 7 gunners to help you out. Its not a combat ship, but a perfect ship for that kind of missions.
They have said that once armor gets in the game that small fighters with small guns pretty much can`t touch a HH. This was not that long ago.
1:22:15
Turning off your engines while you're going really fast in a vacuum and you slow down, with no thrust to slow you down, somehow.
That's the only thing that really bothers me there
This was a great conversation. Really made me consider things I had not regarding the F8C. Good points have changed my perspective.
One of the best podcast about star citizen I have ever heard.
... I just want to throw in there:
Heavy Fighter interceptor class --> you cant turn but your a rocket. Fligh in, shoot, out no turn.
The Ares Ion was great when they released it, the only thing it needed a bit of cutting back of the maneuvering, slowing down the fire rate another 20%, and introduce a small 1meter spread to the canon.. and these would have kept the fire power but would have given enough hurdles so sniping down small fighters would be really hard.
the mechwarrior reference was very helpful in looking at team play
Avenger_One have some good points and bad points there. 1) Yes, all ships plays a role and the tuning of ships should be based on roles. 2) Gladius and the other light fighters are not suppose to be the best dog fighting ships out there. They are light fighters and should be fighting in packs rather than solo wins all. Look at the dinosaurs, Raptors.. can 1 take down a Large prey? NO.. it cannot.. but it hunt in packs.. this is HOW.. light fighters should be.. The majority of players and developers are probably not seeing the role of light fighters the way i see it.
Amazing conversation 👌 ❤
Regarding balance, we're closer to getting a huge new variable that most players ignored.
Why use X bigger ship when we could use 2 or 3 smaller Y ships?
When I see that question, which is usually just an insult at the larger or multi crew ship and not an actual question, I point out that at some point, the "better" smaller ship might run out of gas or require a much bigger ship to carry it where a person wants to use it.
The thing is the F8 was specifically designed to run down fast targets and use small windows of opportunity to unleash as much firepower as possible. I dont see any balance changes removing its high speed (completely).
If were talking ship roles, that is the essence of what we should expect for the F8.
As an Industry player, I will always run because not in a fighter. This leads into the other problem as there is no economy which can allow me to hire consistently fighter protection on the 1 in 20 times I actually run into pirate players. This is the reason why we don't see these battles. Avenger_One sees them because he goes looking. The poor C2 or Caterpillar crew is just trying to make a living rather than get pirated and blown up.
I"ve had the same thoughts. And whats more, how would you like to be that escort who was hired to protect a cargo ship and your game play is quietly flying from point a to point b in your fancy fighter? Might be easy money but it won't be engaging game play for a fighter pilot. It's going to be a job for friends.
@@lucaslightbane Exactly, Plus trying to find fighter escort as a single is impossible in the chat because it is boring duty. The only people who have escorts are orgs or large friend groups because escorting is a way to hang out and not really a job. No one wants to be bored. So, this leads that single or two person ships need to have a mechanism which to disengage at least 30-40% or time. I do not want a get out of jail free card but rather an opportunity which can be had by skill.
A1 made great point , I agree with his point of view
Very well done tomato. very interesting conversation, sometimes funny. tomato the filthy dogfight casual (like me) together with those 2 HC dogfighters. take my sub.
My gripe is there seems to be a huge gap of ship maneuverability between light fighters and medium sized/heavy fighter ships.
I mean, light fighters are also super short range, carrier dependent, and can be killed with very little time on target from said heavy and medium fighters.
I like A1, he makes some very rational points but what i like most about him is how much he makes reddit seethe.
Believe it or not, F8C is at the right spot, It is not OP. Totally agree with Avenger One on this. I lose almost all fights in F8C against light fighters unless the pilot is a noob. But it is fun to fly F8C, especially against NPCs. I hope that CIG won't touch F8C without getting proper feedback from players. F8C is also supposed to be "an air superiority fighter". I can't even compare it to Vanguard since Vanguard doesn't have any problem handling light fighters on its own.
My Orgs been stress testing it and fighters vs it a fair bit and I'd have to agree.
The F8 across 3 bouts 2 vs Scorp and 1 vs a Hurricane lost every bout. But you change pilots and all of a sudden the tables can flip.
We need a Capture the flag mode in AC. Like Century: Age Of Ashes, it would force those cinematic chase moments. Doing that in an asteroid field would be awesome.
We had one and it was a huge mess. Funny, but super messy as people always never were able to defend.
The F8 has been shown with fleets and capital ships every time it's been shown. It doesn't get shown alone. From my understanding, the F8 is like the Gladius and meant more for fleet/capital defense.
It was designed to target the faster, more heavily armored vanduul fighters. You know, the ships whose pilot can survive greater g forces than humans? Whose ships were designed to ram ship blades into enemy fighter's and cut them in half?
It's a counter fighter, space superiority. It's intended to dominate dogfights one on one.
1:00:30 and racing! Everyone forgets racing xD
Great info! Than you
the ramming problem is so easy to solve, base collision damage of hull mass and for now hull hp off hull mass until we get armor
It's been in lore as one of the best ships and now it comes in and it is, can't understand how anyone is surprised. There had to be one at the top and this is the one.
1:05:50 Re, experience X in Star Citizen
In the actual game, there will be a lot of ai ships. That gives cig the opportunity to tune the ai with various personalities in addition to skill levels and likely ship load outs based on those factors.
Sure, it's not PvP, but it does afford the opportunity for the game to provide varied experiences for players of all skill levels piloting different ships.
While the ai is supposed to be "real" and always simulated (ie not just pooping into existence but starting somewhere and going somewhere to do something and just not physically rendered when no player is in range), it wouldn't take much to sometimes tweak the ai "player" the first time they are detected based on what human player they encountered, in what ship, and with what combat history.
The pros in the panel might meet a very different ai than a casual player in a sub optimal ship with few combat engagements.
I'm not a fan of ALWAYS scaling ai to the player and in SC it could only be done first time that ai is encountered. Everyone likes a fun easy fight now and then and a fight you have to run from reminds us there's always a bigger fish.
I have no problem with tricording, but these tiny man-thruster should have overheated quite fast...but they didn't and then we had strange RC-drone movements.
Great talk! I was skeptical about Master Modes, but it sounds pretty good. I am worried about Squadron 42 if fully implementation is so far away. Like, having set pieces and dialogue trees does not a good flight sim make. They need to have well-balanced and engaging missions, which they can't do if they don't have their flight model and ship tuning cemented in place.
Isnt star citizen a space sim? not a flight sim, I know it may feel like that atm cause there`s not much to do than to do pvp or race :)
@@Dorm_ Its core is a flight sim like Wing Commander or Freelancer, and it has expanded into other space stuff. And we are talking about Squadron 42, which is even closer to Wing Commander.
One of the better panel podcasts, well done team!
I played elite for hundreds of hours and I would pick the SC flight model (pre mastermodes) anytime!
The point A One is making is that when something is multi-role and good at several things but with higher costs such as price, room and skill requirement, it MUST be better than average at each of the roles, because having your performance spread across different fields means you get out-performed in each role by a specialized unit, which is fine, but it can't be too extreme or it becomes worthless.
Balancing across different player skill levels is an absolute bane in PVP.
Blitzcrank in League of Legends comes to my mind, where simply because of the mechanics that hero uses, he is absolutely OP on low skill levels and really weak on high skill levels.
They couldn't just adjust numbers to change that, they would have to change him mechanically and possibly destroy his identity.
But another thing most people don't get is that you can't release balanced anything.
If it releases in a balanced state, you are ultra lucky, because even balancing something after release is extremely challenging.
So when you already know released stuff will be unbalanced, all you can do is decide which side you are more likely to err on, stronger or weaker, and it just has more benefits to overtune something a little than to undertune it. More people will buy it = more money, more people will play it = more data on how to balance it + something new to enjoy using.
Ideal balancing is based on a curve. You want things to be worse and things to be better, but you want things to make sense.
In a game like SC, the bell curve SHOULD be managed by the ships class and intended role. You shouldn't expect a ship like the ion or the inferno to behave the same way as the f8c when the f8c is meant to dominate light and medium fighter's in squad combat and the ion and inferno are meant to be paired to abuse capital ships.
@@ThreeGoddesses exactly and despite that the skill of the pilot in light fighters can definitely win out against a less skilled f8 pilot and mediums even have a chance as well depending. The f8 is going to struggle against heavies and something like the vanguard while its more maneuverable a good vanguard and gunner pilot will probably trump a less skilled or even decently skilled f8 pilot.
I don't understand why combat discussions tend to neglect the fact that a significant part of the player base are solo and PVE players. There seems to be a misconception, that PVE and solo players do not do combat. They do - against NPCs. All balancing and ship designs have to take that into consideration. I am certain many player who fly the F8 now are using them in PVE bounty and other missions and will keep doing so. This has an effect on how ships have to be designed. I don't think CIG are designing ships specifically for S-tier players. CIG has to consider that part of the player base that spends a lot but is not interested in regular gameplay with an org, people with jobs, family and a life, who are the ones buying the expensive stuff, because they don't have the time for grinding. Neglecting those would be a huge blow for SC's funding.
I am one of those and I like the F8 for it's versatility in PVE bounty missions.
I also think we will see many more opportunities to acquire the F8 in the future, since CIG very well knows that this is a money maker. This is the main reason why they made it available now, kicking the big spenders in the nuts...
It's not even the best bounty hunter right now. As you and a1 said it's strength is in its versatility but big target bounties are still done more efficiently with an ares or eclipse.
So I agree with this, but what kind of balancing for PvE do you have in mind that is entirely distinct from PvP balancing? It seems like a combat ship that is well-balanced for PvP is going to be balanced for PvE as well.
Having said that, where I see PvE balancing coming in is in regards to the balancing of multirole ships that aren't used for PvP (Nomad, Lancer, Cutty, Avenger, 300 series). I think these ships could use passes in regards to each other in the PvE context (why would I ever fly a 325a as opposed to the cheaper Avenger), and the dedicated fighters almost entirely being considered in terms of PvP.
@@MrClassytangerine I mean you gotta be clear. An Ares or Eclipse is best for VHRT and above, but it is gonna struggle up to that point. The F8C is exceptional for anything up to that point and ok against VHRT and above. I would rate the F8C as the second-best OVERALL (behind the Harbinger) with your examples being way better at high tiers.
Won't the F8 top speed issue be resolved with Master Modes? By the time it switches over to even reach it's top speed, try and get away from an Arrow it won't be able to outrun the dps.
Excellent video my dude. Great guests and discussion
100% agree with Avnger One
absolutely wonderful video Tomato , with top notch Guest speakers .
Great show!!!
Hahaha, excellent show, all you guys were fun to listen to!!!
All the Ships are In a alpha State . Means That once all the vanduul are in and there is more Star Systems are in i think there will be a massive pass in Pre Beta Phase That they start to bring up ships to a Golden Standard , but until then it will always Have lows and highs and that's fine , we are also doing a lot of play time now to help Devs look out for that stuff for the Best future ways to make ships more viable . it will take a few years maybe after sq42 is out before we start seeing Pre Beta Changes .
My biggest issue with how COG "balances" is how often they depart from the "systemic" method of building things.
Instead of creating ships with interactive parts that combine to create an output based on their performance, they choose a "target" performance metric and then kludge the ship into it with fake parameters.
Just be systemic about it, use real physical values for everything.
Amazing show. Im watching while hand mining a hammerhead.
Great discussion :)
The F8C was already nerfed by default. It was nerfed from the F8A. Nerfing it has now created a situation where the focus turns to acquiring an F8A.
F8A is the military varient and is never supposed to be in civilian hands.
It's no different than the allure of people wanting to 'build' an F7A out of an F7C. CiG has stated they intend to make it 'possible,' bit difficult/time consuming. F8C will likely be no different.
Great vid!
My big problem with the F8 is that it treads too far onto the medium fighter category. At least on paper, the F8 is in every way the superior choice.
I'm 100% with Avenger__One, the F8 isn't overpowered, all other heavy fighter have a disadvantage flown solo, but an advantage with a gunner, and usually in real scenarios as a fighter you're protecting a larger ship, so you can't just disengage.
I will never understand why avenger one gets so much hate. He articulated perfectly how I feel about the current flight model and the great potential of master modes.
The fact that laser cannons are half the speed of repeaters tells you everything you need to know about the people behind the balance. IE, they have absolutely no idea what they are doing.
NOT OVERPOWRED AT ALL
it is absolutely absurd to think that all ships MUST have the same damage output!
The F8C is the first fighter I feel is not artificial nerved (yet). Make other ships perform to its role instead of nerving ships that fullfill their role.
Watched this PURELY for the Plat ticket conversation that didn’t happen
Some ships SHOULD be better than others in the same role. That's why they command a higher UEC price, and a major part of progression in the game. The ship sales model distracts from that.
Can a F8C run away if its out of countermeasures? Because of missiles right?
quick question. its happened to me twice in a row now. anyone else get crime state after killing a legitimate bounty target?
Xero, great job!!!
Xero is smart. Other ppl not. That is all.
Without even watching the video...
It's 2023.
CIG released a new combat oriented ship.
Of course it's going to be overpowered.
The F8 SHOULD be slightly OP. It’s rare, exclusive, and for good reason
Loved the video. Get these two back on again.
If only we were all as good as A1 and could get off the go-kart track then we’d understand
The Ares needs to hit like a size 7 fixed weapon. It needs to hit slow, and it needs to devastate if it hits.
It's so nice to hear highly respected star citizen content creatie saying the same words I've been saying for almost 10 years about how the ships should really fly.
I always used to say the Elite Dangerous flight model is how ships should fly. The amount of backlash I used to get for even mentioning ED was insane. And now after all this time it looks like CIG is doing the right thing.
I could watch these two talk high level ship balancing all day
Master modes is fine for combat with ships that are combat ships.
When you find yourself in a non combat ship being targeted by a combat ship of any kind…you will die. You want to run? No shields, you don’t have armor on your HullA so you die.
Are you in a Miner and get jumped by a Hornet? Try to fight? You are dead, try to run? Switch to master modes to run, shields drop and…yep you die.
I say have Master Mode and then give the pilot the option to turn Master Mode off if you achieve a certain level of flight skill. Fantastic Conversation and I agree a lot of what Avenger one is talking about.
If you look at the air force you see multiple ship designs depending on what roll needs filled. The FA8 Lightning is like getting the new F35 and saying that all other fighters are obsolete now. When in fact you put it up against an F16 in a dogfight it will still loose. I think CIG can do a better job of defining what the roll of each fighter will be. And I agree armor is going to be a game changer and I hope to see it sooner rather than later. Seeing military variants of regular ships that have more armor is going to be interesting.
Problem is that they are trying to make a space SIM, and they are trying to push for realism, but also it's a game and they need it to be fun enough to bring people in.
watching xero and a1 have a secret pissing contest the whole time is funny :)
My main concern is... Shields go down in "navigation mode" right? And if you are not fighting you never have an incentive to go out of "navigation mode". So are shields now worthless for non combatants?
Well if you get interdicted or have to stop somewhere that isn't completely safe you are going to want to be in SCM mode. Cruise mode will only be safe when you are traveling at high speed.
I assume that atmosphere will still limit speeds as well so you should be alot more vulnerable there as well
@@MrClassytangerine currently when you switch from nav to scm you speed slows rapidly and i mean rapidly to the cruise speed but weapons and shields are online immediately however changing from scm to nav well weapons are off instantly and speed doesn't immediately go up nor is it that rapid but shields take time to shut off and deplete, you need to boost and hold boost for a few seconds when you do by the time you get into full nav mode your speed is let you get away fairly easily by the time the other has a chance to catch up outside of some circumstances or ships and they won't be able to catch up because their top speed in full boost is roughly halved or more and you can accelerate very fast in nav mode.
But at the same time it is concerning in some manners so tuning is going to be key to see what happens.
I think the best thing to do is wait and see how the f8 is used in sq42....and stick to that with its roll
Changing my comment because I've said it elsewhere but also because I think I have a better position anyways.
Avenger 1 is talking about whether or not things are balanced at the peak of skill in combat. This is fair, he has experience but he is avidly avoiding the topic about how balancing works IF you only consider balance from the top.
You do not balance a game for sweats or the hardcore players because these players will take a crumb and turn it into a knife. IF you do, you end up in a scenario where ONLY the hardcore players can approach your game with any confidence at all. This is fine in terms of competitive games, one off instanced matches where every detail of the game is tied to high skill ceilings to allow for professional play at an international level. Games like League of Legends, for example, balance primarily from the top for this reason. Star Citizen is NOT this type of game.
IF you balance an MMO from the top, however, you cause problems. The game becomes inaccessible, the balance creates many unnecessary quit points for new players, and it encourages power creep to dial itself in far to quickly. You end up having to fight the players by making the game more complicated purely to satisfy their need for challenge as they get better with the tools you provide, and this creates a game environment that's hostile to people trying to learn how to play.
He is also ignoring its overall fit outside of the pvp environment. How does a fighter as lethal as the F8C feel when its bearing down on you in your vulture? Your Corsair? A C1?
You cannot ONLY consider how a ship feels at the top. Or purely in pvp, either.