Rust Bluing.....Anvil 0109
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- There really isn't much difference between conservation and actual rust bluing. Here we stir the mud even more! NOT a tutorial...we show what you need to learn, not how to do . Cannot perform at this level? Do NOT attempt. Support us: / anvil
Actually and re-do of a much earlier episode, but we wanted to upgrade the rustblue.com imbedded video.
As usual, I am mystified why Mark's channel isn't running up at the 3+ million subscribers range or higher. Pure, unadulterated, useful information.
He's such a wealth of knowledge. Something about watching someone work on a craft they've mastered is just excellent. Just to kick back and learn a thing or two with the confidence that whatever he says has been time tested. Almost makes me feel like I can do those things, or at least have the confidence to try, ya know?
Nobody wants to learn, they just want to know.... In 15 seconds or less
@@CrashRacknShoot You Can do these things. That's Mark's intent. He is sharing his knowledge (Knowledge=Experience) via being a teacher. I say this because he has said that. Use his (and others) experience to save yourself time, money and experimentation. This is hard earned information that you can use and trust to get yourself get good results. There might be 20 ways to do a particular task. Some will obviously be wrong but of the ones that are right, experience is what let's you get good results with the least chance of screwing it up!
Ya'll Take Care and be safe, John
He’s too smart for most viewers. You actually, I don’t know, need an attention span and an interest in his videos.
Spread the word guys, spread the word......................!
Mark, I cannot thank you enough for allowing us to come into your shop and see how and why metal transformations take place! You are a master, no doubt. With my cigar in hand I totally immerse myself into your subjects. Common sense and deliberate approaches to smithing is fascinating and I hope someone out there is learning your methods. BRAVO ZULÚ!
Thanks.
ALWAYS OUTSTANDING content Mark! Thank you again for having Bob on the show to get a little more info. Looking forward to more.
Man your channel is fantastic. It’s like having a cool uncle that fixes guns and explains everything. Thanks
Just so you know this channel has been the inspiration of my basement gun smithing. And now an 07 ffl….
OUTSTANDING.........just sayin
A 20 year submariner warning you about a certain alcohol being too potent is a grave warning indeed...
Nuclear grade radioactive waste, yesssirie
Torpedo juice! Yumm
Never go easy on Brake Clean... You want to use enough to move the oil completely off of the part you're cleaning. if you give something a light spray you can end up with a line of oil a little further down where the break clean evaporated. (Not directed at Mark, just a hard learned lesson.)
True, very true. Function of the videos is to get this very conversation started......
Shout out to Bob! Ordered some solution, and couldn't be happier. Timely, professional, and informative! Highly recommend.
Your videos are always must watch for me. I was able to move on from using 4-0 steel wool to carding brushes and finally to an actual carding wheel that I mounted on a $50 dollar well used craftsman drill press I found at an estate sale. I had to rewire the power cord and use it as a press to bore out the carding wheel so I could fab up an arbor for it. Currently working on a No. 5 Enfield that had a bright white flash hider. I have the hider looking plausible which is what I wanted.
Now THATs why we do the videos......outstanding!
Agree my friend! Hen you watch a master who also can explain so well for the shade tree repairman is a great combo. Why Brownells has not gotten with you to do a series and offer some courses in person is a crime!
Excellent video! A charcoal bluing video would probably be found quite interesting!
PLEASE!!!! I'd love to see a video on charcoal bluing!
I used bobs chemicals for a sxs receiver works great. My steam box was my shower and that worked great. I did boil it in a pot on my stove first
Your points at the end would have been burned in our minds if only you had worn the jammies. Thanks for being you.
Imagine a time when we see a lot less bubba’d stuff because Mark took the time to share this wonderful information. I sub a lot of youtubers but Mark is pretty much the only one I actually take the time to watch. Thanks for all you do!
I rust blued a Star BM that had water leak into its original box sometime during storage or shipping to the states and had rusted horribly. It came out amazing. I actually thought I wasn't getting very far until I hit it with Rig grease and it blackened up several shades immediately and held that color. It's a good bit of work especially if you don't have a lot of room or are doing a rifle, but worth it.
On the carding wheel for a cheap use, just chuck it in a drill and clamp your drill to the table with the trigger held down. Boom, you have the same setup Mark does and all you have to buy is the wheel from Brownells. Their carding toothbrushes are good too, just takes way longer. I prefer the brush over steel wool, on mine I started with wool and dumped it for the brush. I just felt like it got into every crack way better and didn't shed like steel wool does.
I am always delighted by the before/after when rust bluing. I kinda went crazy with it, and damn near everything that will fit in my steam box gets blued. All of my lathe and mill accessories. Including, quick change tool post, rotary index, all of my 3 and 4 jaw chucks, collet chucks, fly cutters, boring heads...if it will rust, and I plan on owning it more than a week, it gets rust blued. A deep bluing and a coat of light machine oil, is unbeatable as a machine tool finish.
Badass....
I finished a P14 .303 rifle using rust blueing, i even matched the original blueing parts that didn't need doing. My formula was Sal ammoniac which was used on Lee Enfield rifles at the turn of the century. The best part of the process was watching the grey silvery finish after 6 boilings turn blue black with oil just like magic.
Per your recommendation when you mentioned it long ago, I bought 2 copies of the book, and gave my son one. I have set up to do conservation and have had some nice results. Thank you.
It's hard to express how much joy I get from watching your videos! Interesting, educating, informing, and entertainment. Thank you so much for sharing your skill , knowledge and time!
Thanks. Thats why we do this
I can attest to the quality of Bob's Rust Blue. I have used the American Blue, Frontier Brown, and Damascus. All with great results. I restored a lever action Savage Model 1899 take-down in Savage 303 to near original blue. The Mark and Bob Anvil episode on the whole process made all the difference.
Did you ever think you would have so many students Mark?
Thanks for continuing to educate us!
This guy is unbelievably talented.
Mark's videos are starting to pop up in my gunsmithing courses refinishing classes. Love your stuff Mark
In my field of brass/woodwind instrument repair, I always told people, beside the actual knowing about the horns and how they work.
One also has to be part machinist, part tool and die maker, electrical engineer and part chemist.
I would suggest gunsmithing is very similar.
I'm a metal machine builder old school. Hand sweat was a bad issue. As an aprendice i had problems with rusting my fabrikated parts. On gun smithing sweat could ruin the metal surface i guess. Excellent chanel, i love it. I'm just a steel enthusiast.
Danish oil is such great stuff. I didn’t know you could use it on metal. Learned something new.
Truthfully the lighting in your shop did not show the blowing very well but when you took that revolver outside... WOW nicely done!
Mark, great to see you start with Angier's book!! I have used the Birmingham Brown Recipe (p 90) since the 80's, including the logwood chip process. My results have always been great, particularly with skelp pattern damascus. Getting that pattern to "pop" is a great feeling.
Hey mark just recently last Friday had a seizure in school 18 leaving high school soon it’s like a gift from god to have an 40 min video to lay in bed and watch.
Mark, if you need a fine rust in a hurry, just strip a piece of metal with denatured alcohol set it on your bench and just watch the magic. Depending on the humidity you can see rust as quickly as 20 seconds.
Backstory, we had a random inspection of a toolkit by Quality Assurance (QA) in the USAF. The toolkit was comprised mainly of Snap-On tools; so expensive chrome as far as the eye could see. When the inspector popped open the toolkit, it looked like it had been submersed in salt water for a decade, yet the paperwork inside said it had been inspected just a couple weeks prior and by one of our best troops. Our investigation discovered, nightshift had run out of 'CLP', it was on order, scheduled for delivery that following morning. So the Airman took it upon himself to substitute denatured alcohol and finish wiping down the tool kit as per inspection requirements. This still didn't explain the ridiculous level of rust so we conducted a little 'science'. We pulled brand new tools from bench stock, wiped them down and began setting up timers. Before we figured out how to turn on the timers we already had a super fine surface rust on the chrome which (till that moment) I thought was impossible. Another 15 minutes, the tools were no longer serviceable by military standards and we had our answer. Full disclosure, the Denatured alcohol from Lowes seems different from what the USAF HAZMAT guys provided. It seems thicker, less refined but, I can only presume it will provide similar results.
All solvents available to the public have changed dramatically in the past 20 years & eventually won't be available at all , thank you democrats , for example acetone will be banned in NY next year, according to the paint supply in my area
Great video! I used your conservation method on an unfired Navy Arms percussion revolver that I neglected and had a thumb print on the barrel. To say the least, I was amazed when I saw it work for me, on my gun, in my shop. Thank you so much!
For better for worse Marc your series of videos has become THE point for me checking YT.
As a fellow GS thank you SO much.
Thank you mark
Happenstance led me to this channel. Now subscribed.
Takes a lot of trepidation out of diving head long into a couple of WWI era military weapons.
Thank you for this gigantic input. You are truly teaching though YT.
Just wanted to add that you can make a sweat box also by hanging the parts in your shower with a steam humidifier! I've done that a couple times and it works well! Also, if you don't shower with your rust blue gun parts while they are in there, are you even a *real* gunsmith? Lol.
I like all that quite a bit, sir.
🤣
I spy with my own eyes, a spittoon and what appears to my non-expert eyes, a flintlock pistol! This was an epic episode. Totally awesome. Thanks gents!
OK now, I'm going to put away my Rust-Oleum spray can, one each, condition code "A", Black, and go for conservation and actual rust bluing. My 870 WingMaster is camo rust-oleum paint with a slight coating of Mallard and Squirrel blood. I painted it in the mid 80s. I bought it new, and it was so well shined that it scared off the Ducks.
the pleasure is all ours...to watch...to learn...and to be entertained...thank you...
I've used Bob's rust bluing chemicals and they do a superb job. I especially like the German and Swiss formulations. Rubbing the oiled patina with coarse burlap really brings out the fineness of the metal. I haven't seen that brake cleaner in the State of California; it would be nice to try some of that sometime. When I was a kid here in California I used to be able to purchase gallons of Toulene and Xylene and Naphthalene. Now can get none of these three.
Use acetone.
Lacquer thinner
@@ericschulze5641 I notice in three paint stores here in the Roseville, California area, (Rockler and 2 Warehouse Paints stores one in Citrus Heights and the other in Auburn) carry lacquer thinner. Gallon cans are able to be purchased but it has to be sold to the customer when purchasing Mohawk Nitrocelluose based Lacquers.
@@cameronmccreary4758 maybe you can return the paint after the purchase
Your state has weird laws, are you sure you can't get it at Lowes or home depot or a hardware store ? You got any friends that are truck drivers, they can get you some when they go out of state
YOU DA MAN! I never knew chemestry can be so much fun
Do the Whaintenance??? Get them all out and enjoy them occasionally. Give them a good look over even under the wood. Then thank God for John Moses Browning and Mark Novak.
Awesome video, great to see Bob again!
Damn, your good! Thanks again Mark. You are rhe best.
Cool information. I've wanted to do a Hawken Style 54 caliber percussion cap rifle kit for years .
I've done a few barrels now with bobs rust blue and yalls old vid. A+ stuff
Minwax floor wax works extremely well for this. I use it for hot waxing parts that I blacksmith
as long as iron is in its happy place 🤣 great explanation by someone who has obviously experience in teaching...
Mark thank you for sharing your time on this.
What does one have to do to work for this amazingly knowledgeable man!
Very beautiful job smith!! Thanks for the education!
Absolutely brilliant
..You forgot to give the part number for the carding wheel.
He gives it in at 39:24 in this video here ruclips.net/video/rShG_F85W1Y/видео.html
Please tell us how you card the inside of the actions , i imagine you you use steel wooll and a pick or some sort of stick but i would like to know more , thanks as allways !! cheers!!
Fine stainless bristle brush or denim works as well
Regular tooth or a bore brush both work and are cheap
@@marknovak8255 Thanks!
Love your content! keep it coming!
Wealth of knowledge. 🙏
Parts for the turkey pot/toilet flange system in January... $65 total. It paid for itself the first time as I had great results. I'm thinking about rebluing my Win. 1907 next. It's an early nickel steel type and it's completely missing the hot dip blue I'm afraid all that nickel won't blue or it will come out purple. I may let a sleeping dog lie.
Ever see an old Ruger P series semiauto (aka a boat anchor that shoots 9mm) that has blued parts on it? They turn an interesting plum color. My Russian capture Kar98K has the same odd plum color on the bolt in some spots and on the rear sight. Strangest of all, my M1895 Nagant's cylinder has turned into a copper/bronze color! No idea what that's all about. It doesn't look like "patina" oil coated rust to me. It is almost like it was cerakoted burnt bronze. It was purchased in 2007 or 2008 from JG Sales straight outta a Russian crate so I know it is not painted or coated. That's just what time has done to these examples of bluing. If your gun turns out a plum purple color, it wouldn't be all that unnatural and out of place. Sometimes blued guns end up that way. Idk why. 🤯
Thanks Mark, great stuff as usual..
Amazing thanks Mark🇺🇸
Fantastic information. Thanks gents!
Mark, Amazon has that book both in digital and in hard copy formats, the digital cost me $13 and something cents. The hard copy costs like $24
Hey Mark. Another great video… thanks! Just wondering what the details were on that wheel? I think you mentioned sharing the part number at one point?
i love bob, nice to see him in another episode
Mark, this is the most informative and entertaining gun videos on the internet. Keep up the good work
This makes me want to buy an old rifle and have some fun in the garage.
Thank yall for making this video, im working on an arisaka with some "texture" rust on it right now. It got left in a shed with chlorine :(
😭😭😭😭😭
ARRRGH
@@marknovak8255 Atleast it wasnt me! thank u again for your videos ive learned alot from u over the past few years
Toluene, heptane, xylene... Ah, memories of the boat and dive locker doing repairs without a respirator. Looking back from 20 years distance, might have been a mistake.
Greatest channel
'Tea kettle' ? Regular 'kettle' will do. Now where did i put my 'bread toaster'? 😂👍🏴
Thanks Mark,
You've teached me quite a bit.
Cheers and God bless.
:))
Time is something one cannot put on a shelf for later.
...that's GOTTA BE an OLD can of Watco...the ones I see now have the Minwax logo in the mid/late 60s my job when I got home from school/college was to finish the furniture (Hi-Fi & speaker cabinets) dad built - with the Watco Danish Oil Finish...
Can you explain how you are "looking at the original finish" after converting and carding? I did this to an 1816 musket and it came out beautifully blued, only to learn that they were done in the white and I had simply used the rust from 200 years to rust blue a gun that never was. Seems you are not looking at (or uncovering) the original finish but rather using years of rust to blue the piece. Thank you!
black powder guns were often kept in the white in order to show rust and fouling better, especially in military contexts
Are we going to see that .22 in an upcoming video?
Based on an old memory, it looks like a Winchester Model 275 pump action .22 Magnum. I had one back around 1967.
magnetite is iron (II) (III) oxide, fe3o4, produced from iron (III) oxide. the iron does not gain a full valence shell, it regains a d electron and has 6 d electrons, which is why it can still oxidize to iron (III) oxide. it's less reactive than metallic iron, but not quite in its happy place, iron III oxide is more stable, but porous and expands, letting moisture which dissolves oxygen and lets regular ambient oxygen in.
Excellent video I've learned a lot from this thank you five stars sir
Dang you do make the grass look greener on the other side.
I was about to ask why you had Andy Ritcher in the shop, but thank god it was Bob.
Alcohol is used in other hobbies to break the surface tension
Hey now! 🤑
I'm just a little confused because you kept changing nomenclature such as steaming, boiling and hot potting and had multiple parts in various stages of conversion. Did I understand correctly that the bayonet had not blueing chemicals and was merely cleaned and steamed before carding? The reason I ask is I have a Winchester rifle that was stored in a cloth case in a closet. A water heater on the opposite side of the wall developed a lead and caused a humid environment to develop inside the case. Imagine my confusion when I opened up that case one day and discovered surface rust in some locations on this once mint 30:06. Imagine my confusion as well because my guns are always oiled before putting them away. I haven't touched the rifle or tried to card off the surface rust. The finish may be fine underneath but I don't know. What I gather from your video is I should leave the rust alone, clean it thoroughly, after disassembly of course, heat it up and then steam it and it will possibly convert that rust back to it's oxide layer and then I can card it with some 00: steal wool. I really would like to preserve this rifle and give it the best chance at bringing out it's factory condition without unnecessarily stripping it down to white metal. The rust isn't all that bad but just because it's there it's bad enough. Thanks for clarification
can you oil a finish with kerosene for the first oiling?
Yes, he's used that in other videos. Kerosene, mineral oil, or non-detergent motor oil.
At 23:00 you wrap up the discussion of ripening the rust on the chemically applied pieces. Then you say you’ll hang it along side of the pieces you’re “conserving”. Conserving is the ones you’re doing without adding chemical?
Then you jump to saying they’ve been all “converted” and spent time in a “conversion tank” but you never showed that step or what you did that in.
Is it a boiling water bath? Is it steam? Is it something else? Is it fully immersed in water? For the 45 minutes?
You came back to the topic to create a one-stop summary, and skipped the details of that step.
I think if we watch all the blueing episodes, we’ll get the process. I was just hoping to have it all in one video.
Yeah this frustrated me also. I’ve seen enough of Mark’s videos to know what he did, but I was also hoping this would be an all-in-one, thoroughly descriptive video. I think that was Mark’s intent, but he missed those parts.
If you’re asking, here’s what he did (to the best of my knowledge): after heating the part up in the box with the heater, they remove the heater, and put the kettle in to steam up the box. In this step, you’re really just going for a warm, super humid environment to encourage rust. The parts are not directly in the steam, and only around 100 degrees. You let the parts sit in the warm, super humid box to “frog hair” rust. Then you move to conversion. Conversion is done in the steam tube (the PVC tube attached to the pot they showed earlier in the video). This is distinct from the previous step in that the parts are actually in hot steam, not just humid warmth. This converts the red rust to ferro-ferric oxide. Then you card, which is where the video picks back up.
I know it's seems somewhat vague to me I was expecting a overview kind of video but ended up mentally playing connecting the dots luckily I used to have lots of old scrap metal of different kinds to make things with an learned about different types of corrosion or rust, dad was a boilermaker and pipefitter so I had some input from his experiences
We are dealing with two different processes here; Part 1 is to converting “Rust” into “Magnetite” that is Bluing. And Part 2 is creating the rust coating that is needed to do Part 1.
Part 1 is simple, converting “Rust” into “Magnetite” by either boiling the rusted steel directly in water or use the hot steaming created from boiling water. After 45 minutes of boiling or Hot steaming you card the metal.
Part 2 can be simple or complex depending on the out come you want. There are a lot of different ways to create a thin coat of rust on steel however, the thinner the better. Too thick of a rust coating will be hard to convert, can damage the steel by pitting and can cause coloration issues. Mark's method is quick and efficient but if time and quantity is not a concern then you can dispense with the cardboard box and all the components that go with it....... My tried and true method is clean the metal as Mark describes, apply the “Rust Blue” solution to the metal, hang the metal wait about 4 to 8 hours depending on the humidity level. I live in South Carolina so the rusting process can be a quick as 1 hour. Once I feel the rust has achieve the proper level I then do Part 1. I will repeat this process anywhere from 3 to 5 times in order to get the bluing thickness I desire.
Julia Child wasn’t a frog, she was Scottish, lol
True, but her entire cooking carrier was French, no?
@@marknovak8255 I'd like to think she may have made a haggis or two, off camera...
BTW, I didn't know you had the time to respond to or even read comments, so let me just say, every video of yours has been absolutely fantastic. Great knowledge, production quality and content. Thanks! Every video a great opportunity to settle in and and adsorb.
I’m curious, what about all of those tricky inside area that you can’t reach with a carding wheel? Fine steel wool ? Tips anybody ..
They make a small carding brush similar to a cleaning brush for harder areas. balled up steel wool works too, for wool make sure you ground your metal or you might end up contaminating the metal you are finishing by magnetizing it causing it to attract metal particles that will create unsightly specs in your finish.
Phantasic video!
Where did you source the carding wheel from?
Others have same question.
Grobet File Co. You can order from Midway USA / Brownells. Cost about $30 Per wheel or $80 Per. Depends on light or heavy carding.
in the conversion process, how does one protect the bore? Is that even necessary, or is the bore polished with a few rounds and a cleaning brush?
From what I remember, you are keeping the chemicals out of the bore. The rust blue won't really get in the bore, and any rust that does start in the bore comes out with a couple passes of a brass brush.
@@ScottKenny1978 And that method of controlling the extent of conversion makes perfect sense for the chemically blued guns, but what about for the barreled actions that are blued with water, heat and air (i.e. in this video, the Vedderli)?
@@amschind that one I am going to defer to Mark.
I don't *think* it is any different, but I haven't done the work myself to confirm.
@@ScottKenny1978 To rephrase my question so that it's clear: you can deliberately avoid applying bluing agent to the bore, but I didn't see any method of excluding the steam from the bore when steam (rather than a brushed on chemical) is the oxidizing agent. I suspect that the residual oil in the bore may have something to do with it, but I'm obviously unsure.
@@amschind there shouldn't be any residual oil in the bore.
Any light (orange) rust will just scrub out with a brass bore brush, been there done that a few times.
It's the black rust I'm not sure about.
How do you clean the bores and internal spaces after rust bluing?
The same way you would clean it normally. Use a new bore brush (cleaned with acetone) with no oil and/or a wire brush or tooth brush.
Public library has copy,, plus a couple others.. do people still know what a library is ?
Its where homeless hipsters go to rest before heading out to commit crimes and wreck shit.
Do you use distilled water, or regular tap water for the boil?
Doesn't seem to matter, we use tap water
Do you have a assembly of a LeFever on you tube? I recently found one and took it apart to clean everything. I've searched before but couldn't find anything. I'll be reassembling it soon.
Well, I guess the secret finish of my master blacksmith isn’t a secret anymore…… Francis Whittaker taught my boss about Watco and I learned it from him, I’ve used it for 25 years to great effect
Mark have you here’d of the Modern gun smith volume 1 & 2? Lots or old formulas and methods from 1900,get one if you see one they are out of print. The old ways are simple but work.
I agree. A buck in books save a grand in stupid, also
What about the inside of the barrel?
He's said it in the past. Just clean it with a brush as normal.
20 minutes of steam doesn't even begin to form an oxide in the bore. It took 3 hours, with a chloride agent, to FORCE the outside to rust.
@Mark Novak : When you were chemical wetting the double receive using a el-cheapo brush, if you were doing more than a few pars but still not production, could you apply the chemical agent from a small pump sprayer to get the first coating down, or do you believe that would be ill advised?
It IS an acid, best not spread that around. Salt spray at the beach type destruction.....
@@marknovak8255 Most interesting indeed, didn't realize it was an acid but yeah that makes a whole lot of sense now as to why the brush was eaten up ratty looking. Thank you for getting back to me on that. Have a bonkers good day.
Awesome video as usual. Are we gonna see more of that Vetterli?
yes
I just attempted all this, and everything was going decently well until after I took the barreled action out of the steam pipe. The steam pipe ended up causing rust rather than converting it. By that I mean there was FAR more rust on the gun than when I put it in. I was able to card most of it off and under all that gunk was bluing, but not quite the results I was expecting. The small parts that I boiled turned out as expected and look great. What am I doing wrong with the steam pipe?
Too much time in the steam, how long did you steam it for? Steam has far more energy than boiling water does, should only steam for 10-15 minutes tops.
@@AdamCeresa First go around was for 15 min, second go around was for 10
@@TheRealJeff984 What did your new rust build up look like? I found steaming compared to boiling causes a black and rust colored shiny flaky oxide layer on the steel where as boiling produces the black/red powdery oxide layer. As long as it was all removed when carding you should be good to go.
@@TheRealJeff984 did you ever figure out what the issue was? i'm contemplating trying this
@@familiarhuman No, I had a boiling tank already and decided to just use that.
Does this apply at all to using a aluminum blackening chemical as well?
How do you get the bluing darker, almost a black color? Just continue to repeat cycles over and over until it gets to the color I’m looking for?
What is the rpm of your carding wheel?????? I used mine on a bench grinder and it ate my steel
There’s a high speed bench grinder which is much more common and a low rpm machine, harder to find. I’m betting you were using the high rpm type. Be prepared to pay more for the slow machine.
Your wires were likely too stiff/aggressive. It's gotta be soft like an SOS/Brillo pad or 0000 steel wool.
Not sure how fast his is going. I use the same exact wheel that he's using chucked in my bench drill press set to its highest speed 1500ish rpm.
Just checked the data plates on my machines. The typical bench grinder is 3500 rpm. The low speed Rikon machine is 1750rpm. The slower unit can be difficult to find in a price point machine. A belt driven arbor unit could be slower. Like others have suggested, are you sure about your carding wheel ?
Don’t recall the wheel,(0000 I think , I know it’s soft ) but grinder is 3700,,, to fast,,,,, hard to find a slower one
Always a pleasure