Yes, the critique on ABA is very good in this video and basically also adresses why the "we only use positive reinforcement now" argument doesn't really make things better.
The worst thing for me was the ABA practitioners saying that autistic folks experiences with ABA were lies because ABA is good now. Like, these people are saying they were abused and traumatized only a few years ago. That their children were abused recently. I wish they’d stop telling autistic people their inexperienced are invalid and actually take a second to listen and evaluate their field.
Luckily for me, in Québec (Canada), ABA is not used for autistic people like me. Many of us French-Canadian autistics either go to a "special (needs) education" class/school, or go to a public school with a "plan d'adaptation scolaire".
Yes indeed and the older you get the more you will realize the truth in this! Most of my artistic problems so to speak are because of "other people" I actually like the way I am...
@@kevoreilly6557I can understand why it would look that way, but considering other people to be the issue in this case is based on the common failure of understanding with neurotypicals rather than narcissism. It's not that they're saying "I'm perfect and without fault and it's always everyone else's problem", its moreso "I'm not as broken as the communication deficit seems to paint me as, the problem is just the difference between me and the other person." Yeah it's an empowering viewpoint, but not to a narcissistic extent I think. Because there *are* actually people with whom that deficit does not exist, so it can't just be a personal problem.
@@amandamarinovich6164 yw! I haven't read Unmasking Autism but one of my friends loved it. And Fern Brady has a book about autism! Or herself? Idk. I haven't read it, but i love her so its probably good. I was watching her on a podcast today talking about autism.
ABA therapy is not just damaging for the patient (it has been shown to cause long term PTSD in autistic people). It also just doesn't work. Let me just quote a 2021 paper (Shkedy, G., Shkedy, D. & Sandoval-Norton, A.H. Long-term ABA Therapy Is Abusive: A Response to Gorycki, Ruppel, and Zane): Furthermore, two major studies conducted by the US Department of Defense over a nationwide sample in the last two years massively call into question the efficacy of ABA for treating autism. These studies were based on real world experience and not laboratory results. In addition, the sample size for both was over 6000, making them the largest studies these authors are aware of pertaining to autism services. The first study, presented to Congress in 2019, reported that 76% of beneficiaries had little to no change over 12 months of ABA, and 9% had worsened symptoms, as measured by ABA therapists (Stewart, 2019). The second follow-up study found no statistically significant correlation between the number of ABA hours rendered and outcome measures (Donovan, 2020). Donovan (2020) also conducted population analyses for age and severity which found that, in older children, symptoms worsened over time. Therefore, as Sandoval-Norton and Shkedy (2019) noted, the longer a child receives ABA services, the worse off they are. In sum, the largest study ever conducted on Autism found that any positive changes observed were “small and may not be clinically significant,” with the vast majority of those receiving services having no change in the only thing ABA purports to treat, or even worse, regressing (Donovan, 2020, p.23).
Unfortunately, despite the fact that “the science” is on our side, ABA practitioners have cemented the notion (at least in the United States and South Africa) that ABA is scientifically validated and unassailable. For every critical study that’s released, ABA practitioners will churn out 100 low-quality, biased studies that say the opposite. I think the fact that we’re even having a discussion about “the science,” rather than how no human being should be physically and psychologically coerced into unconditional compliance to authority, shows how badly we’re losing to a bunch of ableist grifters. We get bogged down in scientific argument and ignore the moral one.
My older brother was put into aba therapy as a child and definitely only made things worse. It was so bad, in fact, that I was also traumatized by how he was treated. I could never fully trust my parents to not put me through the same thing, so I became obsessed with not doing anything wrong. My brother was diagnosed at 6 while I have only come to accept that I am autistic this year. Truly horrendous damage has been done to the autistic community at large.
@GhostIntoTheFog I think the belief that ABA therapy is effective and helpful is coming to an end, though. I have a younger coworker who just graduated with a bachelor's degree in psychology, and she told me that her professor was adamantly against ABA therapy and made that known and why, in spite of having a student in the classes who had worked in a clinic that conducted ABA therapy who had all sorts of good things to say about it. Prior to telling me this, knowing that I am autistic, she asked me what I thought about it, and my reply was "Well, I think it's probably not quite as bad as gay conversion therapy" which she smirked at and then told me about her experience in class. She seemed to agree with her professor, and implied that the majority of her classmates did as well, so I am hoping that this generation of people going into psychotherapy and other psychology related fields are learning the problems with ABA and that it is signaling the end of it. Maybe not soon enough, but at least the problems with it are coming to light and being accepted by more and more people.
What ABA refers to as "improvement", I sometimes refer to as "con/deformity". ... To force a square peg through a round hole, they have to apply enough pressure until it "conforms" to the shape they want to see. But in the process, the pig has been forced to "deform" itself into an unnatural shape, and it will likely take significantly more time and effort to repair the damage that has been done in the process.
I think of this poor boy who was having an emotional episode (severely adhd) and the cops shot the kid a bunch. How dare anyone different feel anything around me and my gun!
I hope they ignore this vid but learn and take their own learning and opinions away where ever they decide to grow or learn from us autistic people. Freedom to speak your piece is granted. Just dont act like your gonna police others per say.
Yes. That is why I used the idea of a square peg in a round hole...the square peg is destroyed. You got this point for sure! The amount of trauma caused by being forced to fit in by masking (for me, for 64 years) cannot be underestimated. I also agree that learning the genetic cause of autism is unhelpful. Brain replacements are simply not feasible. I would much rather see programs to assist autistic people by supporting who they ARE, so they can live happy lives as autistic people. I'm not broken...I am just not neurotypical. My operating system is not flawed, it just works differently. There are so many simple ways to support autistic people, and educating about us is one step toward this. In that regard this video is excellent. Great review and response.
To further the square-peg-round-hole example: efforts should really be about making that round hole just a bit more roomy. Yeah, maybe us squares can round our corners off a bit… but there’s a difference between a light sanding and a traumatic planing that ends in a squashed or broken peg.
I remember the “pounding a square peg into a round hole” metaphor from when I was a child. I certainly felt like I was being pounded with such dedication I risked complete destruction! There have to be better ways! 👍
"I also agree that learning the genetic cause of autism is unhelpful. Brain replacements are simply not feasible. " I don't think we get to decide what we should and should not investigate. We are at a stage in science where we are beginning to get the ability to fiddle with DNA and if they ever find out what happens to genes to cause autism I would absolutely want them to look into it, so they can maybe prevent other people from having to live life like this. They won't be able to fix me, but that doesn't mean I get to deny the possibility for future generations.
This was a good response video - and overall, I agree with the main sentiment of "This is way better than most videos we get; there is a lot of great information. There were a few "not good" parts, but I would have overlooked them, if not for the ABA bit." I could not share this video with those who could have learned quite a bit because I WILL NOT share a video that promotes or justifies ABA.
Zero tolerance for ABA is critically important. I’ve encountered far too many complicit Autistics who don’t see it as abuse or don’t consider it a battle worth fighting (even many that go into the field themselves). We ignore and invalidate survivors’ suffering when we don’t present a united front.
First, the focus on symptoms has little value to me, in comparison with the fact that my brain works differently and that's what I suffer with. I expect things that people forget or don't mean, I'm made fun of if I don't understand that a mean comment was supposed to be a joke (which usually is not, but I'm expected to pretend and I can't), I'm usually ignored or completely denied to things because I asked about things that I truly want to understand and somehow this makes people avoid me... And I'm not even talking about friends, I'm talking about authorities or medical professionals, the problem is with everything around me. That's where our problem starts. Not the symptoms... In my opinion, this is where we need help and where therapies should start, with kids as well. Not addressing their behaviour, but why they do it. That's why it's so easy to grow up undiagnosed, we have the problems, but happened to be in an environment where we were taught to hide and fix ourselves, and shamed or punished if not. It also bothers me how people don't talk about the shift that happens on average (from what I see on Reddit and myself ofc) at mid age. Basically in our 20s, 30s, even 40s for some people, we are stronger and still learning/absorbing. We can heavily mask and "push" the thought that we are different from our heads, because it feels like it will eventually go away and he will become less autistic one day. For the first decades, things seem to get better for us, but that's just because we learn more masking, and thus mask more (i.e. fake more). And this is rewarded by those around, who expect "normality"... even though it's still only a shell, that cracks if the interactions are too long. The reality is that it's the opposite for autistic people: the struggles in our minds become more difficult to ignore or overcome as we get older and naturally weaker. So there seems to be a number of autistic people in their 40s, 50s, 60s,... that reach their limit to mask and be active, and consequently burnout perhaps for the rest of their lives... This is why it matters how we think, ALL THE TIME. Not what others see... I couldn't care less what others see at this point. I used to, and it got me to a burnout without end in sight, and 10 years of studies completely wasted.
I should add that when I said "addressing why autistic kids do what they do", I didn't mean changing how they think of course. It dawned on me that this may be the interpretation... I mean that this should be understood ideally prior to therapies start, because therapists need to understand that autistic people don't act to purposely bother others, these so-called symptoms that they see are just coping mechanisms... In my opinion, "specialists" can only help autistic people (as opposed to helping themselves as part of the neurotypical society) once they understand what are the causes of our struggles, that require those "unusual" forms of soothing because we also don't know any better... No one tells us how to be autistic. If experts understood, then maybe they can provide alternatives to our stimming methods, maybe even more effective. In my dream world... One other reason I don't like the autism discussions to be about symptoms, is because it makes autism sound like an illness, where the "symptoms" are something to be cured... In reality, symptoms are our "cure", and the thought of someone wanting to take them away altogether is depressing...
Yes, I too get constanly punished for asking questions because wanna truly understand things and people. By colleagues and professional field individuals because my questions unintentionally expose their ignorance. And by peers because they say I ask too many questions & it's probably to plot against them. I mean, this breaks my heart. How am I supposed to know one's soul & heart if they don't allow me? Could you define what you mean by "naturally weaker"?
I suffer because I was almost a level 3. The only that seperate from those was I was able to speak. I am a case with immune dysfounction or dysruption. My immune system is terribly weak it my skin is not in a great condition. I need to take chemotherapy in pills just to make it less likely to destroy my skin.
Amen. This happened to me. 32 and I am BURNT OUT. And now I don't have the capacity to seek out the supports that I"ve been seeking for years, but when I was masking, and as such was not deemed important enough to help, so here we are, burnout city, population: most autistic people
The whole "you don't show the autism so you don't need help" hits so hard, I am Late diagnosed, throughout my entire school experience it was being yelled at for acting " inappropriate", me masking really hard and struggling for it then being told I'm just lazy cus my grades are crap and I don't need any help because I'm clearly just "normal" I ended up in therapy because of just how bad this cycle became after I had a full mental breakdown leading me to issues that took years and years to help fix, it also left me very vulnerable and people took advantage of that Please for the love of everything that is good in this world Get the child tested if you think they have it And TELL THEM WHAT IS GOING ON Not knowing is the worst part, you constantly sit there and ask yourself "why can't I just be normal, what is wrong with me" ect The answer being your disability and the lack of help for it You don't tell someone who can't walk they are just being lazy, why do we do that to people with autism and ADHD (I have both)
The statement about ABA being the only scientifically validated treatment for autistic people seemed like something someone would come up with if they just did a cursory Google search or sifted through Wikipedia (which has a strong pro-ABA bias).
Thanks, Paul. Great video. I usually enjoy SciShow, and had watched their autism video previously. Had hoped that Hank would "come out" as autistic. 😆 Unfortunately, it was much lower quality/ researched than their usual fare - as Paul pointed out variously. Yes, "shock therapy" equates well with ABA conditioning; resulting in traumatized autistics and reinforced masking. I was relieved to see your (Paul's) analogy, and historical reference to "treatments." My friend's uncle was a neurodivergent indigenous "troublemaker", and doctors "remedied" it by giving him a frontal lobotomy. Family mourned the loss, as post-op he was a numb, compliant, shell of a person. Good to know history, so we don't repeat it, and grow more accepting in diverse ways.
It would be refreshing to hear from people on the spectrum what things improved their quality of life and what did not. For other conditions that seems to be the standard, but not for autism. While undiagnosed, I went through years of cognitive therapy and I think it did more harm than good.
Paul's videos are good, and there are others who have great ideas too. Do some looking on your social media. More and more autistic people are making helpful videos. There are several who have helped me find ways to support myself in healthier ways.
@@Tilly850I think @jimvicpas might be referring to broader channels line SciShow and how neurotypicals continue to focus on externally apparent behaviours instead of truly meaningful outcomes. Paul and other autistic creators are far more likely to focus on the true mental health outcomes of autism, but they just fundamentally have less reach with neurotypicals than larger NT run channels - that reach is important for the sort of advocacy required to convince neurotypicals to stop forcing neurodiverse people to mask so much
From esoteric to less esoteric, from internal to external, some of the things that improved my quality of life (now as an adult): Intentionally setting a goal to research, understand and process as much as possible about Autism and how it is intertwined with my existence in this world. Thankfully I am a very curious person who wants to know and understand how everything and everyone works, which also includes personal introspection. As most things & NT/regular interactions in this world naturally go over or under my radar, I rose my awareness about what those things are and how they might contribute to my misunderstanding of the world around me as well as the world’s misunderstanding of me. This is an ongoing and painful project and sadly the frequency of me getting into trouble because not ‘getting the message’ and not ‘vibing’ with the common wavelengths has not decreased at all (it only grew if nothing else), but my awareness of it increased. Slowly and persistently developing emotional, intellectual, experiential and socio-cultural awareness and understanding of myself from within and then how that collides (and it almost always does) with the regular world. Yes, I am from another planet and no, there is nothing wrong with me because of that, despite what the world around me is telling me. Understanding, describing and learning how to feel and process my own emotions and feelings contributed to lowering of episodes and outbursts of rage, extreme anger, meltdowns and dysregulation every time I would get overwhelmed by the world, but had no words or ability to communicate it to myself or others. Me being extremely sensitive, introverted and intuitive but having no regular language to communicate that timely and properly to the world around me. Coming to terms with my own needs and the fact my bandwidth and capacity to engage with others is very limited and much shorter/smaller than with the average individual AND learning how to communicate that to people around me, while making sure they know I am not rejecting them as people and that my withdrawals have nothing to do with them, but with my own energetic make-up: This means not working at the types of jobs I used to work before, jobs that include frequent interaction with colleagues, public, clients, fast paced environments, constant chit chatting, messaging, and interrupting and no respite and time away from others and interactions with them. Putting a stop on forced speaking at work, social gatherings and events (I naturally don’t speak much and sometimes not at all) and settling into my natural state of being, which mostly consists of observing without engaging or simply not even that, instead of artificial social ‘herding’ as NTs really seem to enjoy; This also means intentionally and aggressively (but respectfully) cutting down my social interactions in general and reducing voluntary ‘hanging out’, going out and about for at least 40% in 2023 and in 2024. Being fully aware and proud of things and skills I have without breaking a sweat that most NTs can only dream about and pointing that out to them without hesitation. Proper routines that work for me, not for those around me for them to feel better about themselves. Healthy life style, proper nutrition, exercise/movement and sleep. Learning about nervous system, breathing and emotional and nervous system dysregulation intervention and repair.
Thanks for this video. I've been low-key avoiding the SciShow video in my feed because I had a feeling it would feel a little...off. This is such an interesting conversation to me as a late-diagnosed ADHDer (and suspected AuDHDer) who is deeply steeped in the ND conversation online as a means to understand myself. I am a certified therapeutic horseback riding instructor, and while I am not specifically trained in working with autism, many of my riders are autistic. I sometimes have a hard time reconciling what I know about the experience of being neurodivergent with how best to work with ND kiddos. I pretty much just do my best to understand who they are and what they're interested in, and I think it works pretty well. I don't know a ton about ABA or what the more current best practices are, but I know enough to feel weird when parents ask me to force their kids to make eye contact and say "hello" and "thank you." I don't know if it's my place to say anything, so I usually end up sort of going with it but not being strict about it at all. I've also felt very weird listening to conference presentations about autism given by clearly NT presenters. It seems very similar to how the SciShow video came across, well-meaning but with underlying medicalization and reductive explanations. Not sure what my point is here, but I really appreciate the way you discuss this topic. I hope to be a better ambassador with folks like you as a role model.
I'm also a late-diagnossd ADHDer and suspected AuDHDer. I keep wondering if it's even worth it to try to get an autism diagnosis because I'm already neurodivergent so what's the point? 😅
@@ewestner As another late-diagnosed ADHDer and self-identified Autistic (My survey scores are ridiculously high, I just need to find an educated evaluator,) I'd say it depends on your needs. I'm currently pursuing the evaluation primarily because I'm getting a late-start on college, and a diagnosis opens up more options for legal accommodations. I'm also in a "privileged-underprivileged" position where I'm currently below the poverty level so my insurance completely covers the cost of evaluation, therefore I don't have to consider any financial impact. I'm personally of the opinion that self-identification is sufficient if your intentions are just researching AuDHD coping skills and applying them to your own life, but it's also more than fair to pursue diagnosis even just for the validation. tldr It's really case-by-case, and I hope the current barriers are eliminated in the future.
Ask the parents if they would ask to shake hands with a person with amputated hands they're meeting with. If they say no, ask why wouldn't they as that is the cultural norm and accepted behaviour when meeting people. Then what ever they respond to that, ask them to apply that same reasoning to autists not looking at their eyes. The point is, even though autistic people are physically able to look, in their head the situation may not be any less distressing, condescending and overall problematic than with amputated person. Yes, I'm aware that kind of questioning comes easily out as snarky and condescending which usually does not make it helpful or productive, and I myself am unable come up with any remedy to that because politeness is not something I do well with, but with your training I'm thinking you just might be able to.
That's such a huge problem (the parents requests)... People need to understand that these are ways to cope, and if taken away, we are forced to basically mask, and have no other outlets or ways to sooth (which yes, it's done by not looking, or not touching, or stimming...).
@@AnonYmous-ow2eb thank you! Validation is really useful, I gotta say. I self-diagnosed with ADHD for over a year but once I really had the diagnosis, it was extremely validating.
The most important thing ANY child can receive from family is feeling safe and supported. That will look different for every child, and moreso for children who are particularly different in functioning in some way. An autistic child is more likely to do well in dim, quiet, low-scent environments where they are permitted to wear clothing they find comfortable and interact with a person one-on-one, rather than in a crowd. Autistic children (and adults) MAY sometimes like large, loud gatherings of people, but are still likely to become overwhelmed and need a long break well before anyone else does. There is no sense in trying to force the child to have abilities or enjoy things that they simply don’t. Instead, pay attention to what THEY enjoy and are comfortable with. It’s not that anyone should never be challenged or uncomfortable, but that it is important to remember that this is a much more frequent experience in ordinary day-to-day life for autistic people, so it should be minimized whenever possible. It is wonderful that you care so much about your grandson and only want a happy life for him! ☺️
You try to understand how he does things (interactions, communication, problem solving, etc.) and try to meet him at his level first. You can explain how YOU do those things but you shouldn't expect him to do the same, to come to the same conclusion on taking the same steps in solving a problem. If he's able to, ask him to go through his thought process. It's really a matter of adjusting, of meeting in the middle in a reasonable way. It's also good to know in what aspects his autism manifest. Texture aversion can be one (the reason why a kid can stay "picky" through adulthood), executive dysfunction/functioning, hypersensitivity (like texture but can be about stimuli like the quantity and strength of sounds, light and color variation and/or objects). It doesn't mean they wouldn't enjoy going to crowded places like a zoo for example, but they might mentally tire much faster than your average kid. Or they might just not be interested and that's ok. It might be disappointing because you had a bunch of ideas to spend time with him, but that's not the end of the world. Maybe he'd love the library instead, or exploring nature while walking down a trail. I know from experience with ADD (or if you prefer ADHD-I) and ADHD, the brain can link thoughts together that a neurotypical person wouldn't understand. Or the brain skips a few steps in reasoning, so it comes as a surprise why someone else wouldn't think of X as common sense when doing Y (common sense is a falsehood anyway even between neurotypicals). It might be hard to figure out how his brain differs, but it's not impossible, and he's not broken or unable to enjoy life and grow to his full potential. He just has to find what works best for him to do so and you can help him figure that out with him, alongside him.
My biggest advice is don’t take things personally. He will interact with you and the world in a way that you may find blunt/confusing/weird or whatnot, but always give him space to just relax and be himself. He may not like what you like, or interact with you the way others do, and that’s alright! Let him do his thing! That’s all we want, is to be safe and supported. I feel like our natural state makes people feel like we’re being rude or distant, but most of the time we’re just chilling. Learn how to find out what he wants, likes and needs and meet him there. And if you’re a safe person to him, you’ll see the meltdowns and that’s a great time for you to accomodate, not punish. And maybe stock up on some of his favorite foods and provide a way for him to be alone or in a quiet space when he’s with you, in case he just needs to opt out for a bit and recharge.
Listen to autistic adults and encourage him to listen to them as well. Autism isn’t really that mysterious - it’s a neurological disability, which means that it may affect the way he thinks, processes emotions, interprets information from his senses, and how he controls his body. Autistic adults can give you *lots* of insight into the way he experiences the world. Many of them are also very funny, smart, and sarcastic, which I personally appreciate :).
So glad that (1) he used the word "autistic," (2) he explained the double communication situation, and (3) he said that autism is forever! Wonderful analysis, Paul. Thank you for your ceaseless work on behalf of the autism community.
I refused from the onset to expose my autistic son to any sort of ABA therapy, for the exact reason critics of this raises. I found the "Son Rise" home-based program (which my son's school willingly integrated with Floortime and other more appropriate strategies suitable to him individually) very valuable, kind and successful. He is as unique as any individual out there and the joy of my life! Thank you to Stepping Stone Special Education School in Swakopmund, Namibia - you guys are a benchmark for autism best practice and compassion in Africa.
Can't wait to hear what you have to say on the video. Maybe it's because I follow a lot of autistic creators online, but for a SciShow video it felt quite out of touch and very US centric. Edit after watching your breakdown: good job on your response! Thank you for being so thorough
I love SciShow and watch most of their videos. I actually don't remember much of the autism video but I will watch it again after I finish this comment. I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and keep thinking that maybe I actually have AuDHD so I've been watching a lot of your content and that by other autistic RUclipsrs. Thank you for making these videos! But as I watch them I think, "What if ADHD and autism are really the same thing and it's only the varying levels that ppl are affected by their neurodivergence that makes the difference between autism, AuDHD, and ADHD?" I was happy to see the part in your video where someone seems to actually be doing some research related to this idea (because I know I can't be the first person to come up with it). And I'm quite upset that SciShow put in the whole section about applied behavioral analysis. I don't know anything about ABA (but am going to read about it now!) but wow, that's so awful. I'm glad that recently ppl have realized how terrible masking is for neurodivergents but we still have such a long way to go in this regard. Great video, really well done. I hope Hank Green sees it and issues a new autism/neurodiversity video.
I'm of the sincere belief that Hank and John are autistic and/or ADHD. John is a classic example of an autistic adult, IMO. He has said he has complete aphantasia, even. Hank Green comes in second place as my mental example of a celebrity with ADHD, first place being held by Jack Black. Neither Hank nor John have ever sought formal diagnosis or treatment. I'm not sure if there is some level of shame that prevents them from doing this or what.
I have ADHD and care for an autistic relative. Autism and ADHD are related in that they are both neurodevelopmental disorders. The problem is pop culture psychology has really loaded the word “masking” along with a lot of misinformation about autism on social media. So much of the content I see thats supposedly for autistic people is just cringe with stuffed animals, rainbows, overly childish presentation, they’re “self-diagnosed”, etc.
I had no idea what ABA was until now. This is torture. I can imagine some poor soul dying inside while appearing “improved” on the outside. It’s something out of a dystopian novel. Awful.
Unfortunately, it’s spread like cancer in the United States. An American diagnosed in early childhood has virtually no chance of avoiding it. It’s fully attached itself to our educational and healthcare systems.
There's a great article out there comparing ABA to dog training, and how ABA is WORSE because at least dog training respects a dog's needs and personality. ABA treats human children worse than DOGS.
Dang thank you for this, Paul! I watched the SciShow video immediately after it came out and I think I was so excited by the good first half, I kind glossed over/didn’t fully process the second half. I really appreciated the points you made and I really hope SciShow sees your video!
I’m glad you brought up the paradigm of the medical model in dealing with autism. It is, in my experience, the attempt and effort of parents, peers, etc to point out and change autistic individuals’ behaviors to model “typical” individuals’ behavior to be the source of our suffering. We are different. Not deficient.
I seriously hesitated to use the "thumb down" button in their video, and I asked myself whether that video in his globality was more helpful or more damaging regarding the general consideration towards autism. And I definitely don't know. The spirit of the video is still "exclusive" rather than "inclusive" despite good intentions. And that is very damaging.
I don't think the video deserves a thumbs down, but I only give thumbs down on very few videos. Pretty much only on bigoted videos/videos that show something that borders animal ab**e or something, but since I don't watch videos like that if I can help it, that's rare. So with that disclaimer out of the way, my suggestion would be to simply not give it a thumb at all. If we hate on this good-intentioned video to much, it might result in people not daring to talk about the topic at all anymore, even if they are trying to spread positive awareness. Instead, constructive feedback is more helpful, so people know that they can make it right if they follow some guidelines. I don't think it's a desirable goal if no neurotypical person ever again talks about autism. That's the opposite of awareness and normalising autism.
This is a fantastic breakdown. I watched it and I felt disappointed but I couldn't put my finger on were it fell down. It's so nice to a non aggressive breakdown. I really hope @scishow watches this and maybe comes out with response or better yet a new and improved video.
Now that I've had a few hours to process this video (and SciShow's video), I have a few things to say. This was a great response to the SciShow video. I appreciate and value the nuance you've added. Though, there are some nuances that _you_ gloss over too. I think the problem is that this topic can't be covered in a 20 minute video. Complexly is a good company with good people and it's obvious to me that they _tried_ to make an informative video. I'm glad you weren't particularly hard on them and I hope they see this after my comment gives it a bump. There's one major issue I have with your take at 5:53. Is autism a form of neurodivergence? Yes, but putting autism within the context of broader neurodivergence has mostly served to hurt the conversation around autism. One Example (of many): There are specific words autistic people use to describe (or at least attempt to describe) our experience to anyone who isn't autistic. Those words can get co-opted by other neurotypes and the definitions of those words get so muddled that they often become unusable for autistic people. This leaves us with fewer words to communicate with, effectively silencing us. I'm glad SciShow didn't mention it. It was a video about autism, not neurodivergence. Also, it's not just a society that makes autism a disability. While our society definitely causes unnecessary obstacles for autistics, there are obstacles I have even if I'm home by myself. It _is_ a disability and some of us need more support than others. As speaking autistics, we have to be careful not to generalize with our own experience. I agree with you on the ABA issue though, as do many other autistics, but that specific topic has _way_ too much nuance for a YT comment like this one.
Not sure which autistic vocabulary gets "co-opted" by other neurodivergents, better that we accept/ encourage what works best for each, and all communication isn't perceived identically by all. However, I do object to some obviously neurodiverse people stating publicly that they're autistic - when they're clearly not (sociopaths) - just because autism is more socially acceptable currently than their neurotype.
@justmeherethereandeverywhere I don't think they are directly connected, although there may be overlap in some people. My husband has Autism, but absolutely does not have ADD/ADHD. I have ADHD, but do not have symptoms of Autism.
@justmeherethereandeverywhereThey absolutely are two separate things, they can be comorbid but they are by no means the same or inherently connected. The symptoms are not the same, but there are a few shared symptoms like stimming and different sensory input. I am diagnosed autistic but don’t meet the criteria for adhd whatsoever.
Post watching note... Therapists never seem to talk much about meldowns and autistic burnouts, which are the consequences of living with an autistic brain... The scishow video also doesn't mention any of it (symptoms that matter the most... even for society). The assumption seems to still be that autism probably gets better with age, except that it doesn't, we are just too burned out and defeated to even speak out...
Well, at nearly 70, I'm hyper-vocal/ noisy when I have meltdowns (which I try to avoid by removing myself, doing soothing activities, but can't always control environs)... I don't care to be "polite" or "fit in" anymore. If they think I'm an eccentric, crazy, old lady, fine. Then leave me alone, and let me be. I'm more more outspoken now - and less self-suppressed (I've thrown my NT internalized expectations/ shackles off).
Oh my god thank you so much for this! I normally love SciShow but man, that episode sat brewing in my recommended for a good while. Watching through it felt like they kept barking up the wrong tree; all the emphasis on diversity was "Oh look at the breadth of people who have autism!" "Look at how many factors could play into it!", instead of, you know, the actual differences + social context that make our experiences unique to neurotypical ones. The neurodiversity. Instead those parts got framed as symptoms, and the latter half played out like a "how to potentially fix autism" segment :/
That was a well done critique (disclosure: of a video I have not seen). With regard to ABA, I’m going to offer one critique of what you said. Philosophically, the square peg/what is “correct” behavior arguments are on target. But I think they are vulnerable to being dismissed as mostly an argument of values and perspective. What I find appalling about ABA is that it is rooted in the modality that mental health care has traditionally utilized. For most of its history, the main objective of mental health care has been to deal with the “problems” that people with disorders cause others. It’s mostly been in my lifetime that the focus has shifted (somewhat) to trying to help an individual who is struggling live their best life. But there’s still lots of the original aim mixed in, and given that many of things that regarded as problem behaviors are more disconcerting than dangerous, it can create a horribly confusing cognitive dissonance: the patient who is faced with instructions that feel wrong, and feels that the practitioner is telling them that they are broken, yet...obviously the practitioner is there to help me! How can I be so unhappy with what they are telling me? I must in fact be a helpless, broken person. This is why so many people describe their therapeutic experiences as traumatic or gaslighting. But it’s not just a mistake in technique: it has historically been the way the “mentally ill” have been managed, and it’s essentially the same psychological technique as torture: break the person and they become submissive. ABA, in my opinion, is still steeped in this approach, and this is why people use the term “abuse.” It’s not skills acquisition, it is fundamentally teaching someone to fear doing something the “wrong way” - and autistic people already get trained to fear that. It’s learned hypervigilance. So everything you said was correct, but I think more emphasis needs to be put on the psychological damage that these techniques can inflict. Yes, the “correct behavior” model is deeply wrong, and inflicts its own judgemental damage. But we have to be careful not to make it sound like these are simply intellectual disagreements. And as it happens, I believe there is still one center in Connecticut, USA that employs electric shocks to kids. Unless they bowed to the pressure they were getting, but last I heard they hadn’t.
Thank you for your comment, you make a very valid point that I have long held, but approached it from an angle that was new to me. That angle will, I think, be helpful when talking to others about this topic. 😁
Agree completely. Glad Paul mentioned electric shock "therapy". Frontal lobotomies, and extermination, have been used previously, too. In those historical contexts, there's improvement - but the ABA (essentially subtle shock therapy) needs to be eliminated.
I’m not autistic, but have always enjoyed scishow’s stuff… i really enjoy when knowledgeable people make “reviews” or “responses” that are clear and fair. It sounds like A.B.A. Is the autistic version of conversion 17:20 and as a gay man, that definitely put the practice in perspective
Thank you, Paul. Your points were made cĺearly, and politely. I also hope the SciShow responds in a positive way to your critique, which has been a response to the mostly positive feedback of the SciShow segment.😊
Thanks for putting this extremely well done video together so promptly! You gave an accurate and clear summary of the most important aspects and added more context. I hope viewers of the original video will find yours and that it gives them another stepping stone for further education. Also, adding that the appropriate response would be another video specifically on neurodivergence was such a good, constructive suggestion! Hopefully they will take you on on that one and get in touch. Well done, Paul!
I’m SO glad you addressed this video! I saw how many views it got, and was hoping it would be good, but didn’t feel as happy with it as I had hoped. I hope they watch this video and do another video of their own in the future.
I like the analogy with the car. It doesn't drill to the specific cause of the knock (off beat sound) that is coming from my car it only tells me that it could be at least 200 other things or an additional 200 other things "wrong" with my car. That helps how? Or "how" does that help me? Also, the behavior part of your video with the focus on "look at me" behavior was so spot on. The energy that it drains from trying to "behave" and "focus" is like punishment to my psyche. This is almost like (not to this extreme) but something I have read about in the past, when students in religious schools would get the back of their hands smacked with a ruler across the knuckles by nuns if they "misbehaved." But "look" it changed the students behavior! (Heartbreaking to read) Thank you for helping me learn more from your content.
I think the SciShow folks are good people, and if they hear the message they'll be open to the feedback. I wonder if any autistic people were involved in the creation of the video?
It came off as very allistic-written to me. If Autistic people worked on the video, I’d imagine they’re either closeted or haven’t engaged with the larger community.
Thank you for the great explanations. I really appreciate that you put forward actual concrete arguments instead of just emotion and chaotic thoughts. I feel like your video is a really good example and template of how to deal with controversial views or information
This reminds me of the time they talked about ADHD and it’s causes, saying something along the line as “insomnia causes ADHD like symptoms. ADHD causes insomnia. Hey, maybe insomnia is the cause of ADHD” and then kind of insinuating that if people with ADHD could just SLEEP they might be fine?? I was seriously appalled by that.
One big issue I had was when SciShow was talking about growing out of autism. While I liked them saying that autism stays with you I hated the mention of mirror neurons and no mention of higher masking. My belief is that adults show less traits of autism when they are older because it is less acceptable for adult to “be autistic”. If they would have also mentioned that it shows that adults can struggle just as much if not more because they have to actively hide traits to be able to interact and work a job. When he only mentions the mirror neuron theory it leads you to believe it gets easier for adults. While it might get easier for SOME that is definitely not reflective of what I’ve heard while talking to other autistic people. They should have mentioned masking and it really really bothers me.
I have an official diagnosis (which was initiated by 3 independent expert opinion so it should be seen as a strongly supported one), but every time I come across such videos as the SciShow one I always feel that I am an impostor. Maybe the adamant ableism or how do you call it (not a native English speaker) I learned through my life. I realized this again when you talked about how detrimental could be to make autistic people to effectively mask their behaviour, as in this case the only benefactor is everybody except the person of concern who will suffer even more as they become invisible. Even for themselves.
Everyone, including neurotypicals, masks. What and how much is being hidden or behavior altered is different by the person and not determined by a diagnosis. Communicate your needs and practice the tolerance you hope to receive. I don't think you need to feel like an imposter because a particular viewpoint doesn't line up with your experience. You're a unique individual, afterall.
@@spinthepickle1244 Thank you! I definetely practice tolerance - that is what turned out to be my strategy to tolerate everyone except myself but again definetely I only hope that I receive it. Interestingly, this diagnosis made me change my attitude in ways that I try to be more tolerant toward myself as well.
@@arcanethievery That's wonderful! It's VITAL to give ourselves as much kindness as we extend to others. I've learned that while it's important to realize when I've messed up, I can't spend all my time beating myself up, I have to move forward so the changing and growing can have space to happen! It's easier if I ask myself, "Would I be understanding and forgiving if someone else made this mistake?" If the answer is Yes, it only makes sense to forgive myself too.
@@spinthepickle1244 Still, it is quite weird that you have to (constantly feel the urge) kind of secondguess(??) yourself. If I understand you correctly, yours is a familiar feeling.
@@arcanethievery Sometimes it's second guessing, sometimes it's realizing too late that I've mucked something up, sometimes it's imposter syndrome. The more people I talk to, the more universal the experience seems to be. Just a part of being human.
I'm glad you made this video and I hope the SciShow folks see it. I know they always strive for accurate, helpful information in their videos, so their viewers trust them and probably won't question anything in that video. I know I usually don't. The only reason I know about ABA is because when my child was very young I learned about the full autistic experience from Actually Autistic adults. Prior to that we were trying therapies that the pediatrician told us to, and we didn't know any better yet. The therapists didn't know what was good for him either; one told us to restrict him from his special interest because he was, well, too interested.
I really love this video and all the details. And I have a question 🙋🏻♀️. How do these takes relate to the level 2 or 3 ASD community? I feel like you’re perfectly outlining my experience as a verbal ASD L1. But what about those people who need full time care, who’s social traits are so severe that it can affect their everyday life to a painful degree? I don’t know what that experience is like, but sometimes I feel like our ASD low support discussions exclude them somehow.
I have difficulty with the pigeon holing of autistic experience into “levels”. What might look from the outside to be someone ‘coping’, ‘succeeding’, and distinguished as “level 1” may in many ways actually experience greater impacts of their autism than someone labelled “level 3”. I find this approach is as limiting as the idea of training us into good little learners of polite behaviour. I am Audhdistic, and a mum of 3 Audhdistic YAs. Each of us could be viewed as level 1 on a good day. 2 of us have considerable communication differences that could constitute L2 or 3 on another day. 2 of us have reactions to certain experiences or sensations leading to behaviours that are well within level 2 or 3 at certain times. One of us is able to undertake paid work, but only in very specific settings and conditions. One of us has a genius IQ, but no capacity to leave the house without support, or to attend to everyday hygiene even with support. Whilst i understand the reasoning behind your comment, the problem is that the Levels approach is also extraordinarily problematic. And is another example of non-autistic people needing to categorise *us* in order to be able to feel comfortable about their own levels of non-brilliance. A better approach is to think about the individual person’s goals. What are they, and how can the individual achieve them within the framework of society and disability; regardless of their communication style/ support needs. And the levels approach begs the question, is autism a spectrum or a 3 classes category? (I actually believe it is much more complex than the whitewashing that ‘the spectrum’ suggests, but it’s better than having what is effectively a caste system applied over us by people outside of the experience.)
Yes! I find this video very limited in regards to moderate and high support needs autists. As with most of online autism community. Especially the quoted "i don't suffer from autism i suffer from other people" is quite telling and suggest a limited view of autism - ironic isn't it. I suffer a great deal from autism! And society gots nothing to do with that
@@spiralpython1989 Complaining about the inaccuracy of the levels system (which, I agree, it needs more nuance than 3 strict boxes) misses the point of OP's comment. Regardless of whether it's in the form of levels or a spectrum, there are some autistic people who struggle more than others. There are people who cannot ever speak, people who require around the clock care every day, etc. These people have been trying to make themselves heard in the autistic community for a long time, and OP is absolutely right that conversations such as this within the low support needs community often exclude the people with higher support needs -- this video is absolutely one such example. It clings incredibly strongly to the social model without even mentioning the concerns that many higher support needs autistic people have with it, for example, and it also talks for a long time about the horrors of behaviour therapies without mentioning the nuance that many autistic people _need_ to learn to mask as a survival skill. I really recommend that you seek out and listen to the perspectives of both 1) some people who have consistently higher support needs than you, there are plenty of them online but you have to look for them because their content isn't going to get pushed, 2) autistic people who belong to other socioeconomic groups than you in other ways (eg. autistic people of colour, autistic people with other disabilities, poor autistic people, queer autistic people -- whichever perspectives apply that you might not see otherwise) and 3) the relatives of those who *can't* communicate their perspectives on their own. I understand that there's a reluctance to listen to second-hand perspectives, but if you only listen to the people like you and me who can articulate our experiences and put them online themselves you're going to get an inaccurate picture of what autism is.
I'm diagnosed as Level 2. This video matches a lot of the sentiments i see in Lvl 2/3 spaces, and my own as well However, i see pushback to the social model sometimes from ppl of all Levels, but not often, at least online
It's so wild to think you might have come across my comment in that video. I will admit, I didn't see the whole video bc I knew by the tone that it wasn't gonna get better. Hank and John were a small hyperfixation of mine for a bit and I didn't wanna risk getting really hurt. Idk if I'll watch your full video either. But I'm really happy you're speaking out and being brave and I'm sure that Hank will take this in consideration if he watches it. Well, I hope. Thanks for talking about this ♡ It makes me feel relieved when I remeber that when we're too tired and scared to keep trying to make ppl understand things (after all, communication is a struggle for us and it takes A Lot of energy), someone else can still be there and that's why it's so important that we fight together ♡
This was the first Sci-Show video which did not receive a thumbs up from me. I expected more from the channel than being othered and a checklist of weaknesses. I honestly couldn’t finish it due to not feeling seen. They still seem to be focused on how to grind the extraordinary into the bland, beige ordinary.
I'm 43 and I have received so many anxiety diagnoses over the course of my life. I finally got diagnosed autistic a few weeks ago and reexamining how my life has been structured through that lens, it's no wonder I've been fighting anxiety and depression since I was young. I've been working in a system that wasn't designed for me, and every time I've inevitably failed, I've been held personally accountable by others and myself. I'm slowly making changes in my life to allow for my needs, including setting up boundaries with friends. In the past, because it's been so hard for me to make friends, I've never really said 'no' to hanging out with anyone. Lately I've been taking the alone time I need to recharge, and my friends have all been incredibly understanding. I've also communicated at work that I need to focus on finishing a project before I can direct my attention to another. I won't say I'm ready to come off my antidepressants just yet, but just making some small changes has made life in general feel less heavy on my chest. I just realized that I info-dumped on you big time. It wasn't my intention to redirect the conversation away from you. I just related to your statement and it kind of poured out from there. I wish you the best and I hope you find all the support you need to thrive, if you haven't already.
Paul, thank you for making this. I saw the SciShow video in my suggestions but initially decided not to watch it -- even though, on the whole, I love Hank and the team over there. I know their video will get a LOT of views, though, and it's great to see that a measured response to it has been produced by a respected member of the autistic community. As someone who grew up with their early childhood diagnosis hidden from them, but was "trained to be normal" using a nighmarish homebrewed version of ABA + Evangelical "tough love" approach, I cannot over-emphasize the importance of making sure reliable information about autism is made available to a young audience likely to include autistic people who have been confused or misled about their situation for their entire lives. I'm certain SciShow aimed in good faith to provide good information to that particular audience segment among their other viewers. But as you and others have pointed out, it missed the mark in some key respects. I am grateful to be able to recommend this to anybody who watched the other video and thinks they know all they need to know from SciShow.
Thank you! I am a late diagnosed adult. One of the things that kept me from being diagnosed was I do make eye contact. I had no formal ABA as a child, but when you described it I realized that is exactly what my father did to me. He would literally hit me to make me make eye contact with people. I am nauseous just writing this. So yes, I also have cPTSD.
Surprisingly I never ended up watching the sci show vid, suspecting it would fall out pretty as you summarised it. Seems very clear we are still a long way short of understanding people as whole, complicated beings, and using medically holistic approaches
As someone who has always socialised with autistic people as I have some in my family, there is one problem I have with the criticism of ABA. The ASD1 people I have known do have significant problems when it comes to conflict resolution with others, whether they are neurodivergent or neurotypical. The first is black and white thinking where, when frustrated or offended by another person they completely cut that person out of their life forever. The other is empathy. It is reasonable to assume that both are caused by difficulty in moderating emotions. Yes, the double empathy problem is part of that but not the whole of the problem. Every time I hear criticism of ABA I never hear anyone on the spectrum talk about alternative solutions to these problems other than to put the onus on the rejected party to fix it. However when the autistic person refuses any attempt at connection from the other person, how is that other person supposed to repair the relationship? The empathy problem shows itself in more than one way. Every time I hear this discussed no one talks about how the presumably neurotypical person has been affected by the neurodiverse person’s behaviour. The responsibility for the communication breakdown is put on the neurotypical. This implies that the neurotypical has unlimited time and resources to be the one who is better at reaching out and the fact that they fail is because they don’t care enough or is being deliberately cruel. This is not realistic. No individual has infinite social skills. We all have to work on being aware of our limitations and work on how to be socially aware of others. We are a social species. When autistic individuals cut off communication with someone who has made a mistake and make oversized accusations against that person, they really deeply hurt that person emotionally. In fact they hurt many people. I can empathise with why this happens but it doesn’t change the deep and lasting hurt caused by the autistic (or ADHD) person’s 100% withdrawal and rejection. ABA may well be rubbish but what’s the alternative?
Absolutely excellent video Paul. I watched it a few hours after it was put out. Was glad to see many peoples opinions mirrored mine. Pretty decent compared to what I have seen.
I am thinking about writing an email to Hank Green and Sci Show to actually raise a bunch of concerns and this video has made me rather more motivated to do so. I'll take one slight issue with your video as well, if you don't mind (although overall, very good and well structured video!) - around 13:39 you say "Obviously, those types of extremes are not used today" is not entirely true. Those types of extremes are more marginal in their use today, but are definitely still used. The highest profile example I can list to back that up is the Judge Rotenberg Educational Center, which uses portable electroshock devices nine times stronger than a commercial cattle prod, and sustains that shock for far longer, as well as the starvation (a "contingent food" scheme), sensory deprivation and restraints (sometimes in conjunction, and sometimes for extended periods).
Thank you for this video. I’m an AuDHD mom of an AuDHD 8 year old. We both have high IQs and school is a nightmare. I had to shut that video off when they began to speculate causes. I cannot help what medical conditions or situations I have and it made me feel awful.
Your child’s lucky to have you. I always wanted to be a parent and ensure a better life for my neurodivergent offspring than I had, but, after multiple consecutive burnouts, there’s no way I could tend to the needs of an infant or other young child. Had I pursued parenthood at a younger age, things might have been different.
Hi I’m a clinical psychologist and really appreciate how your video helped me understand what my clients may be experiencing during neuropsychological testing. I’m hoping to get a sense of what recommendations to make instead of the traditional ABA and neurology consults. Will be looking more into the social model ❤
I’m glad you’re taking Autistic perspectives to heart and discontinuing any ABA referrals. ABA is based on radical behaviorism, a branch of psychology that never had any scientific rigor behind it (and still doesn’t) and was never suitable to apply to humans (or animals, for that matter). ABA is and always was an ableist grift that has contaminated the American healthcare and educational systems.
I thought some stuff was ok but too much negative downlook on the spectrum as a whole. I think you did a great job breaking down the whitepapers. Lots of good points of why correlation does not mean that it is causative.
I totally agree and it would be soooooo cool if SciShow would respond to this. I’m a fan of John and Hank and what they do and I think the SciShow people really tried (and partially achieved) to be inclusive and respectful.
Pretty sure there are several people on the SciShow staff who are Us. I give them some grace of having to be fair to the "official view", being the scientific consensus, which we all know is a bit lacking to put it mildly.
@@ryanjamesloyd6733I suspect Hank is at least ADHD, but I can't remember if I have seen confirmation of this or if my suspicion is all in my head. 🤷♀️
@ryanjamesloyd6733 haha, yup. I was only diagnosed ADHD last year (suspect AuDHD though) and I keep wondering how ok it is to armchair diagnose others with it.......but I see us alllllll over the place now.
This is really really really good. Getting someone to behave a certain way, just to "fit in" to certain social standards does NOT mean you "fixed" or made them "better". We MUST look at things from all angles. It baffles me that so many of us on the autism spectrum had no other choice but to mask, or that we do so to not freak people out. But what are the rest doing to accomodate US?
I have ADHD and care for an autistic relative. I have a hard time understanding what people mean when they say masking? For me with ADHD, it can be difficult to shut up sometimes, but it’s better for me to quit talking and be quiet and try to pay attention in class. Manners are still important in any functional society. I’ve had to learn many COPING strategies, such as better time management and organizational skills, keeping a calendar, setting alarms, and various reminders in order to navigate life as an adult with ADHD. Like many autistic people, I do best with a regular schedule that has a routine. Post-modernist ideology has no place in mental health care. What kinds of accommodations do you think should be implemented?
@@SalivatingSteve Masking is when you become like someone else so that they would feel comfortable with you or so that you are safe from them acting like idiots because they're not use to a wide diversity of humans. For example we have different ways of "stemming" and it sometimes does look strange to other people. It's got nothing to do with manners at all. It's rude to say that people who has different brain "must" comply to a certain type of group of people if they are literally wired differently. The system is flawed. They want everyone to fit in the same box. Mental health system also very flawed. This is something that can be discussed for days on end. We are all learning. Yes- We can and we have all learned to act a certain way. Just like a cat will act like a dog because he grew up with one. That does not mean, you are "acting appropriately". You are still a cat. Unfortunately, we cant see each other's brains walking around and expect everyone to be the same. We shouldn't think that everyone with some extreme differences in their brains MUST act the similar. That idea itself is madness.
This did an excellent job putting into words what was bothering me with the sci show video (which, like you and the majority of the other commenters you showed remarks from, I liked, but...), which is something that I was struggling to do. Thank you for this. It helped me significantly with finding a way to explicitly describe my thoughts.
Some time ago I came to conclusion that I became almost like others, that the difference is merely noticeable. Then I realised that I don’t know who I am anymore. That I lost my true personality, that I’m hollow and broken from the inside and that I miss my old true me, which I used to hate because of the constant feedback “you need to be fixed”. As much as I got fixed, as much I got actually damaged. Very recently I got to know what autism actually is. And why I have panic attacks, heart palpitations, why I cry without any obvious reason in a dynamic environment. These symptoms caused me a lot of suffering and I was even gaslit, that I make this up to get some attention. Thank you, your videos help me not only get educated about autism and neurodiversity, but also help me find my true long time ago forgotten self and embrace it. Once a therapist told me that I should leave my comfort zone a bit, when we spoke about jobs. The problem is that I don’t remember when last time I was in my comfort zone and what it actually is for me. If I want to work in an environment that wouldn’t cause me heart palpitations and panic attacks- is it too much? I’m wondering if it’s too demanding to ask for that?
@@BrickNewton it also took me long time to put these feelings in words as I often have problems to recognize and name my own feelings and needs, it takes me time. Most important is that we are all not alone in our journeys. We are together and it’s absolutely life changing to see that other people relate a lot to the experience which I always thought only I have and that I’m crazy and broken.
@@Alien_ated-human88 Thank you for writing what you did. I'm undiagnosed at this point and not too sure about getting a diagnosis at my age. But finding comments like yours and others who go through the same things I only thought I went through has been amazing. Now I don't feel as 'broken' as I have before. This community is amazing for support.
@@BrickNewton same here, I’m also not diagnosed and I have strong reasons to not seek any diagnosis right now, but I’ve got validation from my therapist who said she is sure I’m an aspie and I agree with her and from members of the online community. We as a community need to rise awareness and wake up as many autistic people as possible who have no idea that they are autistic and think of themselves “what’s wrong with me?” “Why I’m such a looser” etc. it’s devastating.
I'm on the ADHD part of the neurodiversity spectrum. And I'd like to thank you for this video. I agree a lot with you and I really like how you explain everything.
fantastic video! i hope they make a second video addressing these points. i also really feel like they downplayed the harm that Dr asperger was causing. he was deciding who was going to be killed or not. that shouldnt be left unsaid.
I have just started unmasking from years of trying to fit in. In late high school I thought to myself, "F thus, they are never going to accept me at this school." I may as well just do what I want. So I wore a pink sunhat, kept the school senior skirt past my knees and made announcements about youth group at every assembly. Then I left school and couldn't fit in even more, had to leave the bullying at home and got bullied everywhere. Lost all my school and non-school friends. Life just broke me so I went back to the masking I'd been doing from early childhood. I didn't know about any of this until only .oaths ago testing myself against DSM-5 assessments. I have been in burn out for the last 10+ years, causing depression, anxiety and more masking. Now I am terrified of the workplace where the worst human behaviour carries on (in my opinion). Bullies are the managers, 5min late means losing 1hrs pay and repeated dressing downs. Working over 1hr without pay goes unnoticed. People are friendly but 2 faced. I can't handle the fake people any more! 😢😢😢❤❤❤
I started watching your video first, before stopping early and switching to the SciShow video. Im glad i did, you masterfully captured and distilled the issues and refuted them excellently. I say this as someone who masks frequently, often to the point that i become exhausted.
A fantastic response 💕 I really appreciate how you broke down exactly where and what they got wrong and applied real knowledge and for lack of a better word right now receipts to back it up! I love Vlog Brothers and Scishow, it's clear they wanted to do a video that was helpful, and I do hope they respond to this one!
Very helpful. I am glad you are addressing the issue. They did the same with my disease. It was upsetting to see yourself misrepresented. I hope they see this and apply the learnings to all their presentations past, future, present.
I’m freshly diagnosed at the age of 30. I’ve been heavily masking my entire life And since the pandemic I’ve completely shut down and barely leave my apartment. I’m not sure how I’m going to deal with the situation from now on. I’m starting to see some troublesome things in the recommendations the clinic made.(It’s the only clinic that diagnoses autism that is covered by the Canadian health insurance in our area) but thanks for showing me this analysis of the SciShow video. I’ve loved their videos for years, I wasn’t expecting them to make one about autism, but I guess they are really just focused on the scientific aspect of it. I doubt it was their intention to make a cringe video!
ty for this video :) i had such strong feelings about that video but i didn’t wanna leave a hate comment yk? ty for speaking up for us who are too anxious to make a video, i hope they make a redo video about “what is autism?” and cover every facet as in depth as possible
Because of the problems with the SciShow video, I have not included in my playlist of videos about autism that I keep for my spouse to watch. I like it better when others corroborate the things I spout. Looking in the eye: eons ago, someone told me that I should look people in the eye when I talk to them. So, I did. About 10 years later, someone else said that I shouldn't look people in the eye all the time because it is unnerving for them---or, gives them the wrong impression. So, now I consciously look in the eyes, look away, look in the eyes, look away, etc. Can I follow what's being exchanged? Nope. Additionally, I have tried to explain to my spouse that looking them in the eye has as much impact emotionally for me as looking at their elbow. It's just body parts. THIS video is on my autism playlist to share with my spouse. :-)
Wow that sounds super annoying and unhelpful. To clarify, there is a sort of unspoken time limit with the eye contact thing, too much and it becomes too intimate or creepy or intimidating whereas not enough eye contact and you seem to not be paying attention. I'm sure that is very annoying to hear, but I figured you would at least like some sort of explanation. I've struggled with this a tiny bit as well, constantly looking out the window or doodling, paying perfect attention to the teacher yet still getting called out for not paying attention.
I reckon that neurotypical (including nearly all employers) insisting on so much 'proper communication' and 'social skills' for Autistic people is due to them (NTs) not having any real social skills & being limited in communication to superficial, shallow and mostly meaningless, more often than not manipulative word utterings. I am constantly observing and analyzing their interactions between themselves only (especially at work and in meetings) and I am constantly blown away by how that communication is mostly fake, insincere, uninteresting and clumsy. A few years ago I met at work the most interesting guy ever, I enjoyed his mind so much and I was thinking this guy gotta be Autistic too, no way he is NT, he was so weird and off beat in such a nice way. So it turned out he is most likely Autistic, too but can't get diagnosis for some reason.
Man, I feel this so hard. We have a terrible coworker who is incredibly superficial (and a fraud, actually) and the NTs at my workplace seem to think she's great because she can schmooze with them and butter up the leadership team. That kind of nonsense doesn't work on me at all and while she stresses me out a TON it has been at least somewhat amusing to see her realizing that her usual schmoozy tactics don't work on me at all and to see her kind of panic when I call her out on her BS.
@@ewestner Yeah, if a study were done I bet they would find infomercials do NOT work on autistic people! Just a random autistic thought here. I feel the same about the surface small talk...and people LISTEN to it...and LOVE it! Blows me away that they suck up and eat it up.
@Tilly850 so far I'm only diagnosed ADHD but strongly suspect AuDHD, and I haaaaaaaate commercials SO HARD. I try to avoid them at all costs and I hate talking to salespeople.
@@ewestner I loved watching informercials as a teen because I knew what they were after and I categorically denied to give them anything. But some were so egregious and honestly offending that I had an almost violent reaction to them. I think it is something in the tone of voice that just sets me off. Which I can often observe when listening to people I know intend to manipulate and incite me. Especially when I also see their face on TV. That's in large part why I avoid political talk shows or watch reactions to them. Too much whiplash that needs to be broken up.
Thank you for one of the most Intelligent and Articulate Dissections of our Current Health, Medical and Science Based Approach to Autism. Your Calm & Rational approach is like a breath of fresh air in a stifling room of choking, old anecdotal ideas. Your excellent contribution to this most important matter cannot be overstated. Please keep up the great work. Again, many thanks. Cheers from Michael. Australia..
I have never been diagnosed. After having both my boys tested for and diagnosed with ADHA in the nineties, I realized I might have an answer for my own social and intellectual difficulties throughout my childhood and life. Maybe I have it too?... At 67 I realized I have been trying to fit in,(square peg) my whole life. I have done a lot of damage to myself trying to. Mostly psychologically. Feeling “different” than EVERYONE else caused me inner hatred. I desperately needed people to like me, but I didn’t fit in. Loving myself for who I am, the way I am has been a challenge I only recently achieved. I hope everyone here realizes they’re worthy of love. We are not broken, just think differently.
That is a very accurate summary. I would have been kinder in most points, since they really seemed to have made an effort. But regarding ABA I could not agree more. Thank you for putting this out there.
Those are all valid points. It is a sight for sore eyes that they are now being said. Not the video talked about, but the comments you made. And the ideas you communicated as well as the effects. They do make a difference.
As someone who's self diagnosed, no medical insurance so I can't get tested but I've done my research, this was refreshing and helped to add to my understanding of what's been bothering me my whole life. Thank you for how you responded to SciShow. Seeing everything in retrospect now after having watched both of these videos, I feel a little bit better about how my mind works and that hopefully soon more people will understand trying to be normal is weird.
Great response video. This comment mainly exists to feed the algorithm in the hope that it helps the video land on Hank's eyeballs at some point. I think he made his video in good faith and it was mostly a good step forward, like you said, but we can't let the conversation stop there when people are being hurt.
I'm really glad to see this video. I usually love SciShow's stuff, but their autism video made me really uncomfortable, and this response helped me put into words why. I really hope they listen to the community's criticism and do better next time
Problem with aba of course also being reasons behind, there is a difference between learning to handle situations but looking in someones eyes or hug someone? Isn’t it OBVIOUS those CRAVING these things from someone else is deeply DISTURBED and that person is the one needing aba to quit it! The shivers throuugh my body are even visible from listening to that last part! Because it’s spoken of like that’s not even THE problem. Typicals are the effin problem.
I thought the video was more good than bad, on balance. I share quite a few of the criticisms covered here and wish there were some things covered that it didn’t cover. Really grateful for this video, as Hank Green and SciShow team tend to be very welcoming and receptive of this kind of criticism! Hope they’re able to respond
I have an autistic son, he’s 6 with limited verbal abilities but starting to use language and is developing this ability more and more. I have heard a lot of negative comments recently from autistic adults on line about an interventions and I would really like to understand from an adult perspective what the issue is with therapy and interventions? As his mum I want to help him to be understood whether through speaking, sign or PECs. I feel helping him develop these skills is really important for his quality of life and he has been taught PECs and has speech therapy. It can be a challenge sometimes as he doesn’t want to engage but I suppose my feelings are that all children have to have an education and many if not most don’t always want to engage. Please don’t come after me in the comments, I’m genuinely interested in hearing the perspective of adults with autism especially if you’re nonverbal or mostly non verbal. I’d also love to know what support did help and was a positive experience?
Notice how he doesn't use any data in this video. It's all feeling based. Feelings are important, but his feelings are anecdotal. The comment on how making a square peg fit in a round hole damages it is pure allegory. Is there actual evidence that all behavioural modifications are bad? Neurotypical children also have to be socialised and taught what's appropriate, what's rude, etc. It's clear that you have to teach some behaviours. I understand that interventions can be taken too far, but they have a place. I have ADHD, if I don't consciously look out for it, I can absolutely dominate a conversation. Not reading the room, not taking others into consideration since I'm talking about whatever my hyper fixation is. Is this appropriate? No, it's not. I'll sometimes slip up and do it anyway, and those close to me understand, but they also understand that I don't do it intentionally. This attitude of "that's just how I am" isn't helpful.
Autistic adult and currently working on my PhD in cognitive psychology. With treatments and interventions it depends on the autistic individual. Every autistic individual is different and as such not every intervention will be beneficial for them. The basic guidelines is to recognize that nothing is wrong with the autistic individual and that treatments and interventions should only be used to improve their well-being and not the well-being of neurotypical peers. This means you do not want to correct behaviors that only benefit neurotypical people such as eye contact. However, speech therapy is mostly okay. Autistic people want to communicate. However the problem is that most neurotypical people do not want to listen. Communication comes in multiple forms and sometimes it won't be verbal. For example arranging cars might be a form of communication for an autistic individual but a neurotypical person might only see repetitive behavior. Language is repetitive behavior. I had ABA therapy and from my experience it was good. However, I am more of an exception than the rule. Most ABA therapy focuses on correcting autistic behaviors into neurotypical behaviors. For truly good ABA therapy you need a therapist that focuses on improving the autistic child's life and not fitting them into a mold. For example, I was encouraged to use my emotions and describe them. However, I was never forced to describe them nor was I punished when I did not. My therapist was kind to me and realized my limits. I have poor eye contact and as such I was never forced to keep my eye contact with them while talking. A good way to tell if the ABA therapy is good for them is that the autistic child is more expressive and eager to share themselves with you. Other good forms of treatment are animal therapy and working with a dietitian. Dietitians can be beneficial because of most autistic people's limited diets. When working with the dietitian, it is important not to force foods onto to autistic people or punish them for not eating but slowly introduce them to new foods. Also learn about their experience with foods. Many autistic people including myself have sensory issues with certain food textures. I cannot eat raspberries because the texture feels like sandpaper in my mouth. Understanding how your autistic child interacts with their food allows you a better understanding why they do not like certain foods.
Thank you so much for your comments, they are very really helpful. It’s so important to me he grows up knowing we love him for who he is and all the speech therapy and communication books are to help him, because we want to know his choices, preferences and feelings. We have recently started pony rides for my son, not necessarily as therapy just for fun, and he is really enjoying them.
This was a great response video! Encompassed a lot of the feelings I had about the scishow video. While it was made with good intents and in a lot of ways did help progress a better mainstream understanding of autism, it failed to recognize the systems at play. I think Scishow could stand to give more attention to the truth that science is not and never has been unbiased. What questions get funding, who is studied, and who gets to do the studying will always be important, and that shows especially when it comes to science around historically and socially marginalized groups.
This is wonderful. Even if the SciShow folks don't see this, it was very helpful to me as an autistic person who has only known the neurodiversity paradigm. I was unfamiliar with most of the earlier theories of autism.
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Rj2gQAyPA/mqdefault.jpg)
Your comment “it really matters what we consider improvement to be” is incredibly significant. THANK YOU.
Yes, the critique on ABA is very good in this video and basically also adresses why the "we only use positive reinforcement now" argument doesn't really make things better.
👍
The worst thing for me was the ABA practitioners saying that autistic folks experiences with ABA were lies because ABA is good now. Like, these people are saying they were abused and traumatized only a few years ago. That their children were abused recently. I wish they’d stop telling autistic people their inexperienced are invalid and actually take a second to listen and evaluate their field.
Improvements in the present don’t discount cruelties in the past… and hint that the improvements aren’t sufficient to be actually good now.
Luckily for me, in Québec (Canada), ABA is not used for autistic people like me. Many of us French-Canadian autistics either go to a "special (needs) education" class/school, or go to a public school with a "plan d'adaptation scolaire".
“I don’t suffer from autism. I suffer from other people.” YES!!!
I'm 64 and I found out Tuesday I'm autistic, and right now it's the lack of other people that's causing my suffering.
Yes indeed and the older you get the more you will realize the truth in this! Most of my artistic problems so to speak are because of "other people" I actually like the way I am...
Sounds like a standard narcissistic response
@@kevoreilly6557A narcissistic Person doesn't prefer to be alone. Nor does autistic people generally thing otherd being inferior.
So no.
@@kevoreilly6557I can understand why it would look that way, but considering other people to be the issue in this case is based on the common failure of understanding with neurotypicals rather than narcissism.
It's not that they're saying "I'm perfect and without fault and it's always everyone else's problem", its moreso "I'm not as broken as the communication deficit seems to paint me as, the problem is just the difference between me and the other person." Yeah it's an empowering viewpoint, but not to a narcissistic extent I think.
Because there *are* actually people with whom that deficit does not exist, so it can't just be a personal problem.
Really appreciate the measured response. I hope that the SciShow team do watch it and make a statement - and preferably a new video.
I hope scishow team reads We're Not Broken by Eric Garcia.
That's the best book I've ever read. This vid here is also really good.
@reed6514 thanks! I'm looking for good reading material for my parents
@@amandamarinovich6164 yw! I haven't read Unmasking Autism but one of my friends loved it. And Fern Brady has a book about autism! Or herself? Idk. I haven't read it, but i love her so its probably good. I was watching her on a podcast today talking about autism.
@@reed6514please share the name of that podcast - I would love to check it out 😊
@@reed6514 Listening to Hanna Gadsby was the most enjoyable discussion about autism I've ever heard.
ABA therapy is not just damaging for the patient (it has been shown to cause long term PTSD in autistic people). It also just doesn't work.
Let me just quote a 2021 paper (Shkedy, G., Shkedy, D. & Sandoval-Norton, A.H. Long-term ABA Therapy Is Abusive: A Response to Gorycki, Ruppel, and Zane):
Furthermore, two major studies conducted by the US Department of Defense over a nationwide sample in the last two years massively call into question the efficacy of ABA for treating autism. These studies were based on real world experience and not laboratory results. In addition, the sample size for both was over 6000, making them the largest studies these authors are aware of pertaining to autism services. The first study, presented to Congress in 2019, reported that 76% of beneficiaries had little to no change over 12 months of ABA, and 9% had worsened symptoms, as measured by ABA therapists (Stewart, 2019). The second follow-up study found no statistically significant correlation between the number of ABA hours rendered and outcome measures (Donovan, 2020). Donovan (2020) also conducted population analyses for age and severity which found that, in older children, symptoms worsened over time. Therefore, as Sandoval-Norton and Shkedy (2019) noted, the longer a child receives ABA services, the worse off they are. In sum, the largest study ever conducted on Autism found that any positive changes observed were “small and may not be clinically significant,” with the vast majority of those receiving services having no change in the only thing ABA purports to treat, or even worse, regressing (Donovan, 2020, p.23).
Unfortunately, despite the fact that “the science” is on our side, ABA practitioners have cemented the notion (at least in the United States and South Africa) that ABA is scientifically validated and unassailable. For every critical study that’s released, ABA practitioners will churn out 100 low-quality, biased studies that say the opposite. I think the fact that we’re even having a discussion about “the science,” rather than how no human being should be physically and psychologically coerced into unconditional compliance to authority, shows how badly we’re losing to a bunch of ableist grifters. We get bogged down in scientific argument and ignore the moral one.
My older brother was put into aba therapy as a child and definitely only made things worse. It was so bad, in fact, that I was also traumatized by how he was treated. I could never fully trust my parents to not put me through the same thing, so I became obsessed with not doing anything wrong. My brother was diagnosed at 6 while I have only come to accept that I am autistic this year. Truly horrendous damage has been done to the autistic community at large.
@GhostIntoTheFog I think the belief that ABA therapy is effective and helpful is coming to an end, though. I have a younger coworker who just graduated with a bachelor's degree in psychology, and she told me that her professor was adamantly against ABA therapy and made that known and why, in spite of having a student in the classes who had worked in a clinic that conducted ABA therapy who had all sorts of good things to say about it. Prior to telling me this, knowing that I am autistic, she asked me what I thought about it, and my reply was "Well, I think it's probably not quite as bad as gay conversion therapy" which she smirked at and then told me about her experience in class.
She seemed to agree with her professor, and implied that the majority of her classmates did as well, so I am hoping that this generation of people going into psychotherapy and other psychology related fields are learning the problems with ABA and that it is signaling the end of it. Maybe not soon enough, but at least the problems with it are coming to light and being accepted by more and more people.
What ABA refers to as "improvement", I sometimes refer to as "con/deformity". ...
To force a square peg through a round hole, they have to apply enough pressure until it "conforms" to the shape they want to see. But in the process, the pig has been forced to "deform" itself into an unnatural shape, and it will likely take significantly more time and effort to repair the damage that has been done in the process.
ABA therapy should be illegal! It hurts autistic people by treating them like they are broken and need "fixing"!
I think of this poor boy who was having an emotional episode (severely adhd) and the cops shot the kid a bunch. How dare anyone different feel anything around me and my gun!
I hope they ignore this vid but learn and take their own learning and opinions away where ever they decide to grow or learn from us autistic people. Freedom to speak your piece is granted. Just dont act like your gonna police others per say.
"What do actually autistic people think?"
We think that question as written should come with blood pressure medication.
😂 yes
I'm opting for Gin myself...
😄
When irate, hyphenate? 😊
Yes. That is why I used the idea of a square peg in a round hole...the square peg is destroyed. You got this point for sure!
The amount of trauma caused by being forced to fit in by masking (for me, for 64 years) cannot be underestimated.
I also agree that learning the genetic cause of autism is unhelpful. Brain replacements are simply not feasible.
I would much rather see programs to assist autistic people by supporting who they ARE, so they can live happy lives as autistic people. I'm not broken...I am just not neurotypical. My operating system is not flawed, it just works differently.
There are so many simple ways to support autistic people, and educating about us is one step toward this. In that regard this video is excellent.
Great review and response.
To further the square-peg-round-hole example: efforts should really be about making that round hole just a bit more roomy. Yeah, maybe us squares can round our corners off a bit… but there’s a difference between a light sanding and a traumatic planing that ends in a squashed or broken peg.
I remember the “pounding a square peg into a round hole” metaphor from when I was a child. I certainly felt like I was being pounded with such dedication I risked complete destruction! There have to be better ways! 👍
"I also agree that learning the genetic cause of autism is unhelpful. Brain replacements are simply not feasible. "
I don't think we get to decide what we should and should not investigate. We are at a stage in science where we are beginning to get the ability to fiddle with DNA and if they ever find out what happens to genes to cause autism I would absolutely want them to look into it, so they can maybe prevent other people from having to live life like this.
They won't be able to fix me, but that doesn't mean I get to deny the possibility for future generations.
@@faiora 👏👏👏💌
@@misspat7555 absolutely. The trauma of having to fit in is very painful.
This was a good response video - and overall, I agree with the main sentiment of "This is way better than most videos we get; there is a lot of great information. There were a few "not good" parts, but I would have overlooked them, if not for the ABA bit." I could not share this video with those who could have learned quite a bit because I WILL NOT share a video that promotes or justifies ABA.
Zero tolerance for ABA is critically important. I’ve encountered far too many complicit Autistics who don’t see it as abuse or don’t consider it a battle worth fighting (even many that go into the field themselves). We ignore and invalidate survivors’ suffering when we don’t present a united front.
First, the focus on symptoms has little value to me, in comparison with the fact that my brain works differently and that's what I suffer with. I expect things that people forget or don't mean, I'm made fun of if I don't understand that a mean comment was supposed to be a joke (which usually is not, but I'm expected to pretend and I can't), I'm usually ignored or completely denied to things because I asked about things that I truly want to understand and somehow this makes people avoid me... And I'm not even talking about friends, I'm talking about authorities or medical professionals, the problem is with everything around me. That's where our problem starts. Not the symptoms...
In my opinion, this is where we need help and where therapies should start, with kids as well. Not addressing their behaviour, but why they do it. That's why it's so easy to grow up undiagnosed, we have the problems, but happened to be in an environment where we were taught to hide and fix ourselves, and shamed or punished if not.
It also bothers me how people don't talk about the shift that happens on average (from what I see on Reddit and myself ofc) at mid age. Basically in our 20s, 30s, even 40s for some people, we are stronger and still learning/absorbing. We can heavily mask and "push" the thought that we are different from our heads, because it feels like it will eventually go away and he will become less autistic one day. For the first decades, things seem to get better for us, but that's just because we learn more masking, and thus mask more (i.e. fake more). And this is rewarded by those around, who expect "normality"... even though it's still only a shell, that cracks if the interactions are too long. The reality is that it's the opposite for autistic people: the struggles in our minds become more difficult to ignore or overcome as we get older and naturally weaker. So there seems to be a number of autistic people in their 40s, 50s, 60s,... that reach their limit to mask and be active, and consequently burnout perhaps for the rest of their lives...
This is why it matters how we think, ALL THE TIME. Not what others see... I couldn't care less what others see at this point. I used to, and it got me to a burnout without end in sight, and 10 years of studies completely wasted.
I should add that when I said "addressing why autistic kids do what they do", I didn't mean changing how they think of course. It dawned on me that this may be the interpretation... I mean that this should be understood ideally prior to therapies start, because therapists need to understand that autistic people don't act to purposely bother others, these so-called symptoms that they see are just coping mechanisms...
In my opinion, "specialists" can only help autistic people (as opposed to helping themselves as part of the neurotypical society) once they understand what are the causes of our struggles, that require those "unusual" forms of soothing because we also don't know any better... No one tells us how to be autistic. If experts understood, then maybe they can provide alternatives to our stimming methods, maybe even more effective. In my dream world...
One other reason I don't like the autism discussions to be about symptoms, is because it makes autism sound like an illness, where the "symptoms" are something to be cured... In reality, symptoms are our "cure", and the thought of someone wanting to take them away altogether is depressing...
Yes, I too get constanly punished for asking questions because wanna truly understand things and people. By colleagues and professional field individuals because my questions unintentionally expose their ignorance. And by peers because they say I ask too many questions & it's probably to plot against them. I mean, this breaks my heart. How am I supposed to know one's soul & heart if they don't allow me?
Could you define what you mean by "naturally weaker"?
I suffer because I was almost a level 3. The only that seperate from those was I was able to speak. I am a case with immune dysfounction or dysruption. My immune system is terribly weak it my skin is not in a great condition. I need to take chemotherapy in pills just to make it less likely to destroy my skin.
Amen. This happened to me. 32 and I am BURNT OUT. And now I don't have the capacity to seek out the supports that I"ve been seeking for years, but when I was masking, and as such was not deemed important enough to help, so here we are, burnout city, population: most autistic people
Can confirm the age thing (I’m 44)
The whole "you don't show the autism so you don't need help" hits so hard, I am Late diagnosed, throughout my entire school experience it was being yelled at for acting " inappropriate", me masking really hard and struggling for it then being told I'm just lazy cus my grades are crap and I don't need any help because I'm clearly just "normal"
I ended up in therapy because of just how bad this cycle became after I had a full mental breakdown leading me to issues that took years and years to help fix, it also left me very vulnerable and people took advantage of that
Please for the love of everything that is good in this world
Get the child tested if you think they have it
And TELL THEM WHAT IS GOING ON
Not knowing is the worst part, you constantly sit there and ask yourself "why can't I just be normal, what is wrong with me" ect
The answer being your disability and the lack of help for it
You don't tell someone who can't walk they are just being lazy, why do we do that to people with autism and ADHD (I have both)
Absolutely agree! Couldn't believe my eyes and ears when Hank was talking about ABA like that. Really dissapointed in that part!
I agree. I expected better of Hank.
The statement about ABA being the only scientifically validated treatment for autistic people seemed like something someone would come up with if they just did a cursory Google search or sifted through Wikipedia (which has a strong pro-ABA bias).
Then you haven't seen their previous videos on autism. This is a repeated problem for them.
@@laurelgardner Interesting. Will have to check it out. Will rag on Hank then...
Yeah, they have an old one where they actually try to givr credence to the "extreme male brain" notion of autism. I shit you not.
Excellent response! I hope people who watch the SciShow video also watch this video for a more complete picture and understanding.
We do 😉 (well... I did)
I did too. I love SciShow but I think this reaction video is excellent.
Thanks, Paul. Great video. I usually enjoy SciShow, and had watched their autism video previously. Had hoped that Hank would "come out" as autistic. 😆
Unfortunately, it was much lower quality/ researched than their usual fare - as Paul pointed out variously. Yes, "shock therapy" equates well with ABA conditioning; resulting in traumatized autistics and reinforced masking. I was relieved to see your (Paul's) analogy, and historical reference to "treatments."
My friend's uncle was a neurodivergent indigenous "troublemaker", and doctors "remedied" it by giving him a frontal lobotomy. Family mourned the loss, as post-op he was a numb, compliant, shell of a person. Good to know history, so we don't repeat it, and grow more accepting in diverse ways.
It would be refreshing to hear from people on the spectrum what things improved their quality of life and what did not. For other conditions that seems to be the standard, but not for autism. While undiagnosed, I went through years of cognitive therapy and I think it did more harm than good.
Paul's videos are good, and there are others who have great ideas too. Do some looking on your social media. More and more autistic people are making helpful videos. There are several who have helped me find ways to support myself in healthier ways.
@@Tilly850I think @jimvicpas might be referring to broader channels line SciShow and how neurotypicals continue to focus on externally apparent behaviours instead of truly meaningful outcomes. Paul and other autistic creators are far more likely to focus on the true mental health outcomes of autism, but they just fundamentally have less reach with neurotypicals than larger NT run channels - that reach is important for the sort of advocacy required to convince neurotypicals to stop forcing neurodiverse people to mask so much
Define "quality of life" in this context.
@@jliller Yes, please.
From esoteric to less esoteric, from internal to external, some of the things that improved my quality of life (now as an adult):
Intentionally setting a goal to research, understand and process as much as possible about Autism and how it is intertwined with my existence in this world. Thankfully I am a very curious person who wants to know and understand how everything and everyone works, which also includes personal introspection.
As most things & NT/regular interactions in this world naturally go over or under my radar, I rose my awareness about what those things are and how they might contribute to my misunderstanding of the world around me as well as the world’s misunderstanding of me. This is an ongoing and painful project and sadly the frequency of me getting into trouble because not ‘getting the message’ and not ‘vibing’ with the common wavelengths has not decreased at all (it only grew if nothing else), but my awareness of it increased.
Slowly and persistently developing emotional, intellectual, experiential and socio-cultural awareness and understanding of myself from within and then how that collides (and it almost always does) with the regular world. Yes, I am from another planet and no, there is nothing wrong with me because of that, despite what the world around me is telling me.
Understanding, describing and learning how to feel and process my own emotions and feelings contributed to lowering of episodes and outbursts of rage, extreme anger, meltdowns and dysregulation every time I would get overwhelmed by the world, but had no words or ability to communicate it to myself or others. Me being extremely sensitive, introverted and intuitive but having no regular language to communicate that timely and properly to the world around me.
Coming to terms with my own needs and the fact my bandwidth and capacity to engage with others is very limited and much shorter/smaller than with the average individual AND learning how to communicate that to people around me, while making sure they know I am not rejecting them as people and that my withdrawals have nothing to do with them, but with my own energetic make-up:
This means not working at the types of jobs I used to work before, jobs that include frequent interaction with colleagues, public, clients, fast paced environments, constant chit chatting, messaging, and interrupting and no respite and time away from others and interactions with them.
Putting a stop on forced speaking at work, social gatherings and events (I naturally don’t speak much and sometimes not at all) and settling into my natural state of being, which mostly consists of observing without engaging or simply not even that, instead of artificial social ‘herding’ as NTs really seem to enjoy;
This also means intentionally and aggressively (but respectfully) cutting down my social interactions in general and reducing voluntary ‘hanging out’, going out and about for at least 40% in 2023 and in 2024.
Being fully aware and proud of things and skills I have without breaking a sweat that most NTs can only dream about and pointing that out to them without hesitation.
Proper routines that work for me, not for those around me for them to feel better about themselves. Healthy life style, proper nutrition, exercise/movement and sleep.
Learning about nervous system, breathing and emotional and nervous system dysregulation intervention and repair.
Thanks for this video. I've been low-key avoiding the SciShow video in my feed because I had a feeling it would feel a little...off. This is such an interesting conversation to me as a late-diagnosed ADHDer (and suspected AuDHDer) who is deeply steeped in the ND conversation online as a means to understand myself.
I am a certified therapeutic horseback riding instructor, and while I am not specifically trained in working with autism, many of my riders are autistic. I sometimes have a hard time reconciling what I know about the experience of being neurodivergent with how best to work with ND kiddos. I pretty much just do my best to understand who they are and what they're interested in, and I think it works pretty well. I don't know a ton about ABA or what the more current best practices are, but I know enough to feel weird when parents ask me to force their kids to make eye contact and say "hello" and "thank you." I don't know if it's my place to say anything, so I usually end up sort of going with it but not being strict about it at all. I've also felt very weird listening to conference presentations about autism given by clearly NT presenters. It seems very similar to how the SciShow video came across, well-meaning but with underlying medicalization and reductive explanations.
Not sure what my point is here, but I really appreciate the way you discuss this topic. I hope to be a better ambassador with folks like you as a role model.
I'm also a late-diagnossd ADHDer and suspected AuDHDer. I keep wondering if it's even worth it to try to get an autism diagnosis because I'm already neurodivergent so what's the point? 😅
@@ewestner As another late-diagnosed ADHDer and self-identified Autistic (My survey scores are ridiculously high, I just need to find an educated evaluator,) I'd say it depends on your needs. I'm currently pursuing the evaluation primarily because I'm getting a late-start on college, and a diagnosis opens up more options for legal accommodations.
I'm also in a "privileged-underprivileged" position where I'm currently below the poverty level so my insurance completely covers the cost of evaluation, therefore I don't have to consider any financial impact.
I'm personally of the opinion that self-identification is sufficient if your intentions are just researching AuDHD coping skills and applying them to your own life, but it's also more than fair to pursue diagnosis even just for the validation.
tldr It's really case-by-case, and I hope the current barriers are eliminated in the future.
Ask the parents if they would ask to shake hands with a person with amputated hands they're meeting with. If they say no, ask why wouldn't they as that is the cultural norm and accepted behaviour when meeting people. Then what ever they respond to that, ask them to apply that same reasoning to autists not looking at their eyes.
The point is, even though autistic people are physically able to look, in their head the situation may not be any less distressing, condescending and overall problematic than with amputated person.
Yes, I'm aware that kind of questioning comes easily out as snarky and condescending which usually does not make it helpful or productive, and I myself am unable come up with any remedy to that because politeness is not something I do well with, but with your training I'm thinking you just might be able to.
That's such a huge problem (the parents requests)... People need to understand that these are ways to cope, and if taken away, we are forced to basically mask, and have no other outlets or ways to sooth (which yes, it's done by not looking, or not touching, or stimming...).
@@AnonYmous-ow2eb thank you! Validation is really useful, I gotta say. I self-diagnosed with ADHD for over a year but once I really had the diagnosis, it was extremely validating.
I have an autistic grandson. My objective is "how do I act, or what do I do , so he has a happy life, the same as I wish to have?
The most important thing ANY child can receive from family is feeling safe and supported. That will look different for every child, and moreso for children who are particularly different in functioning in some way. An autistic child is more likely to do well in dim, quiet, low-scent environments where they are permitted to wear clothing they find comfortable and interact with a person one-on-one, rather than in a crowd. Autistic children (and adults) MAY sometimes like large, loud gatherings of people, but are still likely to become overwhelmed and need a long break well before anyone else does. There is no sense in trying to force the child to have abilities or enjoy things that they simply don’t. Instead, pay attention to what THEY enjoy and are comfortable with. It’s not that anyone should never be challenged or uncomfortable, but that it is important to remember that this is a much more frequent experience in ordinary day-to-day life for autistic people, so it should be minimized whenever possible. It is wonderful that you care so much about your grandson and only want a happy life for him! ☺️
You try to understand how he does things (interactions, communication, problem solving, etc.) and try to meet him at his level first. You can explain how YOU do those things but you shouldn't expect him to do the same, to come to the same conclusion on taking the same steps in solving a problem. If he's able to, ask him to go through his thought process. It's really a matter of adjusting, of meeting in the middle in a reasonable way. It's also good to know in what aspects his autism manifest. Texture aversion can be one (the reason why a kid can stay "picky" through adulthood), executive dysfunction/functioning, hypersensitivity (like texture but can be about stimuli like the quantity and strength of sounds, light and color variation and/or objects). It doesn't mean they wouldn't enjoy going to crowded places like a zoo for example, but they might mentally tire much faster than your average kid. Or they might just not be interested and that's ok. It might be disappointing because you had a bunch of ideas to spend time with him, but that's not the end of the world. Maybe he'd love the library instead, or exploring nature while walking down a trail.
I know from experience with ADD (or if you prefer ADHD-I) and ADHD, the brain can link thoughts together that a neurotypical person wouldn't understand. Or the brain skips a few steps in reasoning, so it comes as a surprise why someone else wouldn't think of X as common sense when doing Y (common sense is a falsehood anyway even between neurotypicals). It might be hard to figure out how his brain differs, but it's not impossible, and he's not broken or unable to enjoy life and grow to his full potential. He just has to find what works best for him to do so and you can help him figure that out with him, alongside him.
My biggest advice is don’t take things personally. He will interact with you and the world in a way that you may find blunt/confusing/weird or whatnot, but always give him space to just relax and be himself. He may not like what you like, or interact with you the way others do, and that’s alright! Let him do his thing! That’s all we want, is to be safe and supported. I feel like our natural state makes people feel like we’re being rude or distant, but most of the time we’re just chilling. Learn how to find out what he wants, likes and needs and meet him there. And if you’re a safe person to him, you’ll see the meltdowns and that’s a great time for you to accomodate, not punish. And maybe stock up on some of his favorite foods and provide a way for him to be alone or in a quiet space when he’s with you, in case he just needs to opt out for a bit and recharge.
Don't make him "fit in"!
Listen to autistic adults and encourage him to listen to them as well. Autism isn’t really that mysterious - it’s a neurological disability, which means that it may affect the way he thinks, processes emotions, interprets information from his senses, and how he controls his body. Autistic adults can give you *lots* of insight into the way he experiences the world. Many of them are also very funny, smart, and sarcastic, which I personally appreciate :).
So glad that (1) he used the word "autistic," (2) he explained the double communication situation, and (3) he said that autism is forever! Wonderful analysis, Paul. Thank you for your ceaseless work on behalf of the autism community.
Thank you for producing this response to the SciShow video on Autism. I hope you hear from them.
I refused from the onset to expose my autistic son to any sort of ABA therapy, for the exact reason critics of this raises. I found the "Son Rise" home-based program (which my son's school willingly integrated with Floortime and other more appropriate strategies suitable to him individually) very valuable, kind and successful. He is as unique as any individual out there and the joy of my life! Thank you to Stepping Stone Special Education School in Swakopmund, Namibia - you guys are a benchmark for autism best practice and compassion in Africa.
Great feedback, I hope the people from Sci Show watches your video ❤
Does RUclips have a way of tagging that would get their attention here?
Can't wait to hear what you have to say on the video. Maybe it's because I follow a lot of autistic creators online, but for a SciShow video it felt quite out of touch and very US centric.
Edit after watching your breakdown: good job on your response! Thank you for being so thorough
I love SciShow and watch most of their videos. I actually don't remember much of the autism video but I will watch it again after I finish this comment.
I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and keep thinking that maybe I actually have AuDHD so I've been watching a lot of your content and that by other autistic RUclipsrs. Thank you for making these videos! But as I watch them I think, "What if ADHD and autism are really the same thing and it's only the varying levels that ppl are affected by their neurodivergence that makes the difference between autism, AuDHD, and ADHD?" I was happy to see the part in your video where someone seems to actually be doing some research related to this idea (because I know I can't be the first person to come up with it).
And I'm quite upset that SciShow put in the whole section about applied behavioral analysis. I don't know anything about ABA (but am going to read about it now!) but wow, that's so awful. I'm glad that recently ppl have realized how terrible masking is for neurodivergents but we still have such a long way to go in this regard.
Great video, really well done. I hope Hank Green sees it and issues a new autism/neurodiversity video.
I'm of the sincere belief that Hank and John are autistic and/or ADHD. John is a classic example of an autistic adult, IMO. He has said he has complete aphantasia, even. Hank Green comes in second place as my mental example of a celebrity with ADHD, first place being held by Jack Black. Neither Hank nor John have ever sought formal diagnosis or treatment. I'm not sure if there is some level of shame that prevents them from doing this or what.
@@meadowrae1491 I remember from one of Hank's videos that he said that since he's been able to cope, he's never felt the need for a diagnosis.
I have ADHD and care for an autistic relative. Autism and ADHD are related in that they are both neurodevelopmental disorders.
The problem is pop culture psychology has really loaded the word “masking” along with a lot of misinformation about autism on social media. So much of the content I see thats supposedly for autistic people is just cringe with stuffed animals, rainbows, overly childish presentation, they’re “self-diagnosed”, etc.
I had no idea what ABA was until now. This is torture. I can imagine some poor soul dying inside while appearing “improved” on the outside. It’s something out of a dystopian novel. Awful.
Unfortunately, it’s spread like cancer in the United States. An American diagnosed in early childhood has virtually no chance of avoiding it. It’s fully attached itself to our educational and healthcare systems.
you still have no idea what it is. they only explain thw absolute worst possible examples of what could be called aba.
@@jimmjimmsin this case, I'd say it is more than enough. Anything in that direction that involves even a fraction of that should be illegal. Period.
There's a great article out there comparing ABA to dog training, and how ABA is WORSE because at least dog training respects a dog's needs and personality. ABA treats human children worse than DOGS.
It's like breaking in a circus animal
Dang thank you for this, Paul! I watched the SciShow video immediately after it came out and I think I was so excited by the good first half, I kind glossed over/didn’t fully process the second half. I really appreciated the points you made and I really hope SciShow sees your video!
I’m glad you brought up the paradigm of the medical model in dealing with autism.
It is, in my experience, the attempt and effort of parents, peers, etc to point out and change autistic individuals’ behaviors to model “typical” individuals’ behavior to be the source of our suffering.
We are different. Not deficient.
They know, they wont accept. When will we wake up?
Paul, thank you for speaking for us. I couldn’t have been so nice! Well, not very easily! You were very clear!
I seriously hesitated to use the "thumb down" button in their video, and I asked myself whether that video in his globality was more helpful or more damaging regarding the general consideration towards autism. And I definitely don't know. The spirit of the video is still "exclusive" rather than "inclusive" despite good intentions. And that is very damaging.
I don't think the video deserves a thumbs down, but I only give thumbs down on very few videos. Pretty much only on bigoted videos/videos that show something that borders animal ab**e or something, but since I don't watch videos like that if I can help it, that's rare. So with that disclaimer out of the way, my suggestion would be to simply not give it a thumb at all. If we hate on this good-intentioned video to much, it might result in people not daring to talk about the topic at all anymore, even if they are trying to spread positive awareness. Instead, constructive feedback is more helpful, so people know that they can make it right if they follow some guidelines. I don't think it's a desirable goal if no neurotypical person ever again talks about autism. That's the opposite of awareness and normalising autism.
@@solar0wind I agree with your point, and I finally didn't thumb it down, but still find the spirit of the video is damaging :-/
IMO it would've been better for them to just stay silent rather than make that video.
I think It's better to voice your disagreements with the video in the comments! Constructive criticism is always good to give
That's what we need. Let it be.
This is a fantastic breakdown. I watched it and I felt disappointed but I couldn't put my finger on were it fell down. It's so nice to a non aggressive breakdown. I really hope @scishow watches this and maybe comes out with response or better yet a new and improved video.
Now that I've had a few hours to process this video (and SciShow's video), I have a few things to say.
This was a great response to the SciShow video. I appreciate and value the nuance you've added. Though, there are some nuances that _you_ gloss over too. I think the problem is that this topic can't be covered in a 20 minute video. Complexly is a good company with good people and it's obvious to me that they _tried_ to make an informative video. I'm glad you weren't particularly hard on them and I hope they see this after my comment gives it a bump.
There's one major issue I have with your take at 5:53. Is autism a form of neurodivergence? Yes, but putting autism within the context of broader neurodivergence has mostly served to hurt the conversation around autism. One Example (of many): There are specific words autistic people use to describe (or at least attempt to describe) our experience to anyone who isn't autistic. Those words can get co-opted by other neurotypes and the definitions of those words get so muddled that they often become unusable for autistic people. This leaves us with fewer words to communicate with, effectively silencing us. I'm glad SciShow didn't mention it. It was a video about autism, not neurodivergence.
Also, it's not just a society that makes autism a disability. While our society definitely causes unnecessary obstacles for autistics, there are obstacles I have even if I'm home by myself. It _is_ a disability and some of us need more support than others. As speaking autistics, we have to be careful not to generalize with our own experience. I agree with you on the ABA issue though, as do many other autistics, but that specific topic has _way_ too much nuance for a YT comment like this one.
Not sure which autistic vocabulary gets "co-opted" by other neurodivergents, better that we accept/ encourage what works best for each, and all communication isn't perceived identically by all.
However, I do object to some obviously neurodiverse people stating publicly that they're autistic - when they're clearly not (sociopaths) - just because autism is more socially acceptable currently than their neurotype.
@justmeherethereandeverywhere
I don't think they are directly connected, although there may be overlap in some people. My husband has Autism, but absolutely does not have ADD/ADHD. I have ADHD, but do not have symptoms of Autism.
@justmeherethereandeverywhereThey absolutely are two separate things, they can be comorbid but they are by no means the same or inherently connected. The symptoms are not the same, but there are a few shared symptoms like stimming and different sensory input. I am diagnosed autistic but don’t meet the criteria for adhd whatsoever.
Post watching note... Therapists never seem to talk much about meldowns and autistic burnouts, which are the consequences of living with an autistic brain... The scishow video also doesn't mention any of it (symptoms that matter the most... even for society). The assumption seems to still be that autism probably gets better with age, except that it doesn't, we are just too burned out and defeated to even speak out...
Well, at nearly 70, I'm hyper-vocal/ noisy when I have meltdowns (which I try to avoid by removing myself, doing soothing activities, but can't always control environs)... I don't care to be "polite" or "fit in" anymore. If they think I'm an eccentric, crazy, old lady, fine. Then leave me alone, and let me be. I'm more more outspoken now - and less self-suppressed (I've thrown my NT internalized expectations/ shackles off).
Oh my god thank you so much for this! I normally love SciShow but man, that episode sat brewing in my recommended for a good while. Watching through it felt like they kept barking up the wrong tree; all the emphasis on diversity was "Oh look at the breadth of people who have autism!" "Look at how many factors could play into it!", instead of, you know, the actual differences + social context that make our experiences unique to neurotypical ones. The neurodiversity. Instead those parts got framed as symptoms, and the latter half played out like a "how to potentially fix autism" segment :/
That was a well done critique (disclosure: of a video I have not seen). With regard to ABA, I’m going to offer one critique of what you said.
Philosophically, the square peg/what is “correct” behavior arguments are on target. But I think they are vulnerable to being dismissed as mostly an argument of values and perspective. What I find appalling about ABA is that it is rooted in the modality that mental health care has traditionally utilized.
For most of its history, the main objective of mental health care has been to deal with the “problems” that people with disorders cause others. It’s mostly been in my lifetime that the focus has shifted (somewhat) to trying to help an individual who is struggling live their best life. But there’s still lots of the original aim mixed in, and given that many of things that regarded as problem behaviors are more disconcerting than dangerous, it can create a horribly confusing cognitive dissonance: the patient who is faced with instructions that feel wrong, and feels that the practitioner is telling them that they are broken, yet...obviously the practitioner is there to help me! How can I be so unhappy with what they are telling me? I must in fact be a helpless, broken person.
This is why so many people describe their therapeutic experiences as traumatic or gaslighting. But it’s not just a mistake in technique: it has historically been the way the “mentally ill” have been managed, and it’s essentially the same psychological technique as torture: break the person and they become submissive. ABA, in my opinion, is still steeped in this approach, and this is why people use the term “abuse.” It’s not skills acquisition, it is fundamentally teaching someone to fear doing something the “wrong way” - and autistic people already get trained to fear that. It’s learned hypervigilance.
So everything you said was correct, but I think more emphasis needs to be put on the psychological damage that these techniques can inflict. Yes, the “correct behavior” model is deeply wrong, and inflicts its own judgemental damage. But we have to be careful not to make it sound like these are simply intellectual
disagreements.
And as it happens, I believe there is still one center in Connecticut, USA that employs electric shocks to kids. Unless they bowed to the pressure they were getting, but last I heard they hadn’t.
Thank you for your comment, you make a very valid point that I have long held, but approached it from an angle that was new to me. That angle will, I think, be helpful when talking to others about this topic. 😁
Agree completely.
Glad Paul mentioned electric shock "therapy". Frontal lobotomies, and extermination, have been used previously, too. In those historical contexts, there's improvement - but the ABA (essentially subtle shock therapy) needs to be eliminated.
You’re talking about the Judge Rotenberg Center in Canton, Mass. The FDA has proposed a ban on the practice and is taking public comments now.
I’m not autistic, but have always enjoyed scishow’s stuff… i really enjoy when knowledgeable people make “reviews” or “responses” that are clear and fair.
It sounds like A.B.A. Is the autistic version of conversion 17:20 and as a gay man, that definitely put the practice in perspective
Thank you, Paul. Your points were made cĺearly, and politely. I also hope the SciShow responds in a positive way to your critique, which has been a response to the mostly positive feedback of the SciShow segment.😊
Autistics of the world, unite!
Thanks for putting this extremely well done video together so promptly! You gave an accurate and clear summary of the most important aspects and added more context. I hope viewers of the original video will find yours and that it gives them another stepping stone for further education. Also, adding that the appropriate response would be another video specifically on neurodivergence was such a good, constructive suggestion! Hopefully they will take you on on that one and get in touch.
Well done, Paul!
I’m SO glad you addressed this video! I saw how many views it got, and was hoping it would be good, but didn’t feel as happy with it as I had hoped. I hope they watch this video and do another video of their own in the future.
I like the analogy with the car. It doesn't drill to the specific cause of the knock (off beat sound) that is coming from my car it only tells me that it could be at least 200 other things or an additional 200 other things "wrong" with my car. That helps how? Or "how" does that help me? Also, the behavior part of your video with the focus on "look at me" behavior was so spot on. The energy that it drains from trying to "behave" and "focus" is like punishment to my psyche. This is almost like (not to this extreme) but something I have read about in the past, when students in religious schools would get the back of their hands smacked with a ruler across the knuckles by nuns if they "misbehaved." But "look" it changed the students behavior! (Heartbreaking to read)
Thank you for helping me learn more from your content.
I think the SciShow folks are good people, and if they hear the message they'll be open to the feedback.
I wonder if any autistic people were involved in the creation of the video?
It came off as very allistic-written to me. If Autistic people worked on the video, I’d imagine they’re either closeted or haven’t engaged with the larger community.
Thank you for the great explanations. I really appreciate that you put forward actual concrete arguments instead of just emotion and chaotic thoughts. I feel like your video is a really good example and template of how to deal with controversial views or information
This reminds me of the time they talked about ADHD and it’s causes, saying something along the line as “insomnia causes ADHD like symptoms. ADHD causes insomnia. Hey, maybe insomnia is the cause of ADHD” and then kind of insinuating that if people with ADHD could just SLEEP they might be fine??
I was seriously appalled by that.
One big issue I had was when SciShow was talking about growing out of autism. While I liked them saying that autism stays with you I hated the mention of mirror neurons and no mention of higher masking. My belief is that adults show less traits of autism when they are older because it is less acceptable for adult to “be autistic”. If they would have also mentioned that it shows that adults can struggle just as much if not more because they have to actively hide traits to be able to interact and work a job. When he only mentions the mirror neuron theory it leads you to believe it gets easier for adults. While it might get easier for SOME that is definitely not reflective of what I’ve heard while talking to other autistic people. They should have mentioned masking and it really really bothers me.
I have an official diagnosis (which was initiated by 3 independent expert opinion so it should be seen as a strongly supported one), but every time I come across such videos as the SciShow one I always feel that I am an impostor. Maybe the adamant ableism or how do you call it (not a native English speaker) I learned through my life. I realized this again when you talked about how detrimental could be to make autistic people to effectively mask their behaviour, as in this case the only benefactor is everybody except the person of concern who will suffer even more as they become invisible. Even for themselves.
Everyone, including neurotypicals, masks. What and how much is being hidden or behavior altered is different by the person and not determined by a diagnosis. Communicate your needs and practice the tolerance you hope to receive. I don't think you need to feel like an imposter because a particular viewpoint doesn't line up with your experience. You're a unique individual, afterall.
@@spinthepickle1244 Thank you! I definetely practice tolerance - that is what turned out to be my strategy to tolerate everyone except myself but again definetely I only hope that I receive it. Interestingly, this diagnosis made me change my attitude in ways that I try to be more tolerant toward myself as well.
@@arcanethievery That's wonderful! It's VITAL to give ourselves as much kindness as we extend to others. I've learned that while it's important to realize when I've messed up, I can't spend all my time beating myself up, I have to move forward so the changing and growing can have space to happen! It's easier if I ask myself, "Would I be understanding and forgiving if someone else made this mistake?" If the answer is Yes, it only makes sense to forgive myself too.
@@spinthepickle1244 Still, it is quite weird that you have to (constantly feel the urge) kind of secondguess(??) yourself. If I understand you correctly, yours is a familiar feeling.
@@arcanethievery Sometimes it's second guessing, sometimes it's realizing too late that I've mucked something up, sometimes it's imposter syndrome. The more people I talk to, the more universal the experience seems to be. Just a part of being human.
I'm glad you made this video and I hope the SciShow folks see it. I know they always strive for accurate, helpful information in their videos, so their viewers trust them and probably won't question anything in that video. I know I usually don't. The only reason I know about ABA is because when my child was very young I learned about the full autistic experience from Actually Autistic adults. Prior to that we were trying therapies that the pediatrician told us to, and we didn't know any better yet. The therapists didn't know what was good for him either; one told us to restrict him from his special interest because he was, well, too interested.
Thoughtful and well balanced response. Really good job incorporating community feedback. I hope they listen!
I really love this video and all the details. And I have a question 🙋🏻♀️.
How do these takes relate to the level 2 or 3 ASD community? I feel like you’re perfectly outlining my experience as a verbal ASD L1. But what about those people who need full time care, who’s social traits are so severe that it can affect their everyday life to a painful degree? I don’t know what that experience is like, but sometimes I feel like our ASD low support discussions exclude them somehow.
I have difficulty with the pigeon holing of autistic experience into “levels”. What might look from the outside to be someone ‘coping’, ‘succeeding’, and distinguished as “level 1” may in many ways actually experience greater impacts of their autism than someone labelled “level 3”. I find this approach is as limiting as the idea of training us into good little learners of polite behaviour. I am Audhdistic, and a mum of 3 Audhdistic YAs. Each of us could be viewed as level 1 on a good day. 2 of us have considerable communication differences that could constitute L2 or 3 on another day. 2 of us have reactions to certain experiences or sensations leading to behaviours that are well within level 2 or 3 at certain times. One of us is able to undertake paid work, but only in very specific settings and conditions. One of us has a genius IQ, but no capacity to leave the house without support, or to attend to everyday hygiene even with support.
Whilst i understand the reasoning behind your comment, the problem is that the Levels approach is also extraordinarily problematic. And is another example of non-autistic people needing to categorise *us* in order to be able to feel comfortable about their own levels of non-brilliance. A better approach is to think about the individual person’s goals. What are they, and how can the individual achieve them within the framework of society and disability; regardless of their communication style/ support needs. And the levels approach begs the question, is autism a spectrum or a 3 classes category? (I actually believe it is much more complex than the whitewashing that ‘the spectrum’ suggests, but it’s better than having what is effectively a caste system applied over us by people outside of the experience.)
Yes! I find this video very limited in regards to moderate and high support needs autists. As with most of online autism community. Especially the quoted "i don't suffer from autism i suffer from other people" is quite telling and suggest a limited view of autism - ironic isn't it. I suffer a great deal from autism! And society gots nothing to do with that
@@fleon4115 🙄
@@spiralpython1989 Complaining about the inaccuracy of the levels system (which, I agree, it needs more nuance than 3 strict boxes) misses the point of OP's comment. Regardless of whether it's in the form of levels or a spectrum, there are some autistic people who struggle more than others. There are people who cannot ever speak, people who require around the clock care every day, etc. These people have been trying to make themselves heard in the autistic community for a long time, and OP is absolutely right that conversations such as this within the low support needs community often exclude the people with higher support needs -- this video is absolutely one such example. It clings incredibly strongly to the social model without even mentioning the concerns that many higher support needs autistic people have with it, for example, and it also talks for a long time about the horrors of behaviour therapies without mentioning the nuance that many autistic people _need_ to learn to mask as a survival skill.
I really recommend that you seek out and listen to the perspectives of both 1) some people who have consistently higher support needs than you, there are plenty of them online but you have to look for them because their content isn't going to get pushed, 2) autistic people who belong to other socioeconomic groups than you in other ways (eg. autistic people of colour, autistic people with other disabilities, poor autistic people, queer autistic people -- whichever perspectives apply that you might not see otherwise) and 3) the relatives of those who *can't* communicate their perspectives on their own. I understand that there's a reluctance to listen to second-hand perspectives, but if you only listen to the people like you and me who can articulate our experiences and put them online themselves you're going to get an inaccurate picture of what autism is.
I'm diagnosed as Level 2. This video matches a lot of the sentiments i see in Lvl 2/3 spaces, and my own as well
However, i see pushback to the social model sometimes from ppl of all Levels, but not often, at least online
It's so wild to think you might have come across my comment in that video. I will admit, I didn't see the whole video bc I knew by the tone that it wasn't gonna get better. Hank and John were a small hyperfixation of mine for a bit and I didn't wanna risk getting really hurt. Idk if I'll watch your full video either. But I'm really happy you're speaking out and being brave and I'm sure that Hank will take this in consideration if he watches it. Well, I hope.
Thanks for talking about this ♡ It makes me feel relieved when I remeber that when we're too tired and scared to keep trying to make ppl understand things (after all, communication is a struggle for us and it takes A Lot of energy), someone else can still be there and that's why it's so important that we fight together ♡
This was the first Sci-Show video which did not receive a thumbs up from me. I expected more from the channel than being othered and a checklist of weaknesses. I honestly couldn’t finish it due to not feeling seen.
They still seem to be focused on how to grind the extraordinary into the bland, beige ordinary.
I am 51. I know for a fact I am on the spectrum, but have never been diagnosed. My Dr. put me on lexapro for anxiety, but it is much more than that.
I'm 43 and I have received so many anxiety diagnoses over the course of my life. I finally got diagnosed autistic a few weeks ago and reexamining how my life has been structured through that lens, it's no wonder I've been fighting anxiety and depression since I was young. I've been working in a system that wasn't designed for me, and every time I've inevitably failed, I've been held personally accountable by others and myself.
I'm slowly making changes in my life to allow for my needs, including setting up boundaries with friends. In the past, because it's been so hard for me to make friends, I've never really said 'no' to hanging out with anyone. Lately I've been taking the alone time I need to recharge, and my friends have all been incredibly understanding. I've also communicated at work that I need to focus on finishing a project before I can direct my attention to another.
I won't say I'm ready to come off my antidepressants just yet, but just making some small changes has made life in general feel less heavy on my chest.
I just realized that I info-dumped on you big time. It wasn't my intention to redirect the conversation away from you. I just related to your statement and it kind of poured out from there.
I wish you the best and I hope you find all the support you need to thrive, if you haven't already.
Paul, thank you for making this. I saw the SciShow video in my suggestions but initially decided not to watch it -- even though, on the whole, I love Hank and the team over there. I know their video will get a LOT of views, though, and it's great to see that a measured response to it has been produced by a respected member of the autistic community.
As someone who grew up with their early childhood diagnosis hidden from them, but was "trained to be normal" using a nighmarish homebrewed version of ABA + Evangelical "tough love" approach, I cannot over-emphasize the importance of making sure reliable information about autism is made available to a young audience likely to include autistic people who have been confused or misled about their situation for their entire lives.
I'm certain SciShow aimed in good faith to provide good information to that particular audience segment among their other viewers. But as you and others have pointed out, it missed the mark in some key respects. I am grateful to be able to recommend this to anybody who watched the other video and thinks they know all they need to know from SciShow.
Thank you! I am a late diagnosed adult. One of the things that kept me from being diagnosed was I do make eye contact. I had no formal ABA as a child, but when you described it I realized that is exactly what my father did to me. He would literally hit me to make me make eye contact with people. I am nauseous just writing this. So yes, I also have cPTSD.
Thank you for sharing. I’m so sorry you experienced such abuse.
Surprisingly I never ended up watching the sci show vid, suspecting it would fall out pretty as you summarised it. Seems very clear we are still a long way short of understanding people as whole, complicated beings, and using medically holistic approaches
As someone who has always socialised with autistic people as I have some in my family, there is one problem I have with the criticism of ABA. The ASD1 people I have known do have significant problems when it comes to conflict resolution with others, whether they are neurodivergent or neurotypical. The first is black and white thinking where, when frustrated or offended by another person they completely cut that person out of their life forever. The other is empathy. It is reasonable to assume that both are caused by difficulty in moderating emotions. Yes, the double empathy problem is part of that but not the whole of the problem. Every time I hear criticism of ABA I never hear anyone on the spectrum talk about alternative solutions to these problems other than to put the onus on the rejected party to fix it. However when the autistic person refuses any attempt at connection from the other person, how is that other person supposed to repair the relationship? The empathy problem shows itself in more than one way. Every time I hear this discussed no one talks about how the presumably neurotypical person has been affected by the neurodiverse person’s behaviour. The responsibility for the communication breakdown is put on the neurotypical. This implies that the neurotypical has unlimited time and resources to be the one who is better at reaching out and the fact that they fail is because they don’t care enough or is being deliberately cruel. This is not realistic. No individual has infinite social skills. We all have to work on being aware of our limitations and work on how to be socially aware of others. We are a social species. When autistic individuals cut off communication with someone who has made a mistake and make oversized accusations against that person, they really deeply hurt that person emotionally. In fact they hurt many people. I can empathise with why this happens but it doesn’t change the deep and lasting hurt caused by the autistic (or ADHD) person’s 100% withdrawal and rejection. ABA may well be rubbish but what’s the alternative?
Absolutely excellent video Paul.
I watched it a few hours after it was put out. Was glad to see many peoples opinions mirrored mine. Pretty decent compared to what I have seen.
I am thinking about writing an email to Hank Green and Sci Show to actually raise a bunch of concerns and this video has made me rather more motivated to do so.
I'll take one slight issue with your video as well, if you don't mind (although overall, very good and well structured video!) - around 13:39 you say "Obviously, those types of extremes are not used today" is not entirely true. Those types of extremes are more marginal in their use today, but are definitely still used. The highest profile example I can list to back that up is the Judge Rotenberg Educational Center, which uses portable electroshock devices nine times stronger than a commercial cattle prod, and sustains that shock for far longer, as well as the starvation (a "contingent food" scheme), sensory deprivation and restraints (sometimes in conjunction, and sometimes for extended periods).
Thank you for this video. I’m an AuDHD mom of an AuDHD 8 year old. We both have high IQs and school is a nightmare. I had to shut that video off when they began to speculate causes. I cannot help what medical conditions or situations I have and it made me feel awful.
Your child’s lucky to have you. I always wanted to be a parent and ensure a better life for my neurodivergent offspring than I had, but, after multiple consecutive burnouts, there’s no way I could tend to the needs of an infant or other young child. Had I pursued parenthood at a younger age, things might have been different.
@@GhostIntoTheFog I’m trying. It’s not easy. I wish we had more support.
Hi I’m a clinical psychologist and really appreciate how your video helped me understand what my clients may be experiencing during neuropsychological testing. I’m hoping to get a sense of what recommendations to make instead of the traditional ABA and neurology consults. Will be looking more into the social model ❤
I’m glad you’re taking Autistic perspectives to heart and discontinuing any ABA referrals. ABA is based on radical behaviorism, a branch of psychology that never had any scientific rigor behind it (and still doesn’t) and was never suitable to apply to humans (or animals, for that matter). ABA is and always was an ableist grift that has contaminated the American healthcare and educational systems.
I thought some stuff was ok but too much negative downlook on the spectrum as a whole. I think you did a great job breaking down the whitepapers. Lots of good points of why correlation does not mean that it is causative.
"When you force a square peg into a round hole, you damage the peg." This. So much this.
I totally agree and it would be soooooo cool if SciShow would respond to this. I’m a fan of John and Hank and what they do and I think the SciShow people really tried (and partially achieved) to be inclusive and respectful.
Unfortunately more up-to-date scientific research was needed by SciShow - usually they do better, it seems.
Pretty sure there are several people on the SciShow staff who are Us. I give them some grace of having to be fair to the "official view", being the scientific consensus, which we all know is a bit lacking to put it mildly.
(like I would probably ping Hank as being kindred. Maybe not, but i'm pretty sure)
@@ryanjamesloyd6733I suspect Hank is at least ADHD, but I can't remember if I have seen confirmation of this or if my suspicion is all in my head. 🤷♀️
@@ewestner He just sets off my "one of Us" vibes.
@ryanjamesloyd6733 haha, yup. I was only diagnosed ADHD last year (suspect AuDHD though) and I keep wondering how ok it is to armchair diagnose others with it.......but I see us alllllll over the place now.
@@ewestner that is my suspicion of my own self as well.
It fits far too well.
Excellent measured response. Not angry or pointed, but clear and as collaborative as a response video could be. I appreciate that.
This reminds me of Apollo 13, fitting a square filter into a round peg. It takes a lot of work and ingenuity.
This is really really really good. Getting someone to behave a certain way, just to "fit in" to certain social standards does NOT mean you "fixed" or made them "better". We MUST look at things from all angles. It baffles me that so many of us on the autism spectrum had no other choice but to mask, or that we do so to not freak people out. But what are the rest doing to accomodate US?
I have ADHD and care for an autistic relative. I have a hard time understanding what people mean when they say masking? For me with ADHD, it can be difficult to shut up sometimes, but it’s better for me to quit talking and be quiet and try to pay attention in class. Manners are still important in any functional society. I’ve had to learn many COPING strategies, such as better time management and organizational skills, keeping a calendar, setting alarms, and various reminders in order to navigate life as an adult with ADHD. Like many autistic people, I do best with a regular schedule that has a routine. Post-modernist ideology has no place in mental health care. What kinds of accommodations do you think should be implemented?
@@SalivatingSteve Masking is when you become like someone else so that they would feel comfortable with you or so that you are safe from them acting like idiots because they're not use to a wide diversity of humans. For example we have different ways of "stemming" and it sometimes does look strange to other people. It's got nothing to do with manners at all. It's rude to say that people who has different brain "must" comply to a certain type of group of people if they are literally wired differently. The system is flawed. They want everyone to fit in the same box. Mental health system also very flawed. This is something that can be discussed for days on end. We are all learning. Yes- We can and we have all learned to act a certain way. Just like a cat will act like a dog because he grew up with one. That does not mean, you are "acting appropriately". You are still a cat. Unfortunately, we cant see each other's brains walking around and expect everyone to be the same. We shouldn't think that everyone with some extreme differences in their brains MUST act the similar. That idea itself is madness.
This did an excellent job putting into words what was bothering me with the sci show video (which, like you and the majority of the other commenters you showed remarks from, I liked, but...), which is something that I was struggling to do. Thank you for this. It helped me significantly with finding a way to explicitly describe my thoughts.
This was excellent. Thank you, Paul, for taking such care to craft such a well thought out response.
Some time ago I came to conclusion that I became almost like others, that the difference is merely noticeable. Then I realised that I don’t know who I am anymore. That I lost my true personality, that I’m hollow and broken from the inside and that I miss my old true me, which I used to hate because of the constant feedback “you need to be fixed”. As much as I got fixed, as much I got actually damaged. Very recently I got to know what autism actually is. And why I have panic attacks, heart palpitations, why I cry without any obvious reason in a dynamic environment. These symptoms caused me a lot of suffering and I was even gaslit, that I make this up to get some attention. Thank you, your videos help me not only get educated about autism and neurodiversity, but also help me find my true long time ago forgotten self and embrace it. Once a therapist told me that I should leave my comfort zone a bit, when we spoke about jobs. The problem is that I don’t remember when last time I was in my comfort zone and what it actually is for me. If I want to work in an environment that wouldn’t cause me heart palpitations and panic attacks- is it too much? I’m wondering if it’s too demanding to ask for that?
Wow, it feels like you wrote down what's been in my head forever but have never been able to put it down in words.
@@BrickNewton it also took me long time to put these feelings in words as I often have problems to recognize and name my own feelings and needs, it takes me time. Most important is that we are all not alone in our journeys. We are together and it’s absolutely life changing to see that other people relate a lot to the experience which I always thought only I have and that I’m crazy and broken.
@@Alien_ated-human88 Thank you for writing what you did. I'm undiagnosed at this point and not too sure about getting a diagnosis at my age. But finding comments like yours and others who go through the same things I only thought I went through has been amazing. Now I don't feel as 'broken' as I have before. This community is amazing for support.
@@BrickNewton same here, I’m also not diagnosed and I have strong reasons to not seek any diagnosis right now, but I’ve got validation from my therapist who said she is sure I’m an aspie and I agree with her and from members of the online community. We as a community need to rise awareness and wake up as many autistic people as possible who have no idea that they are autistic and think of themselves “what’s wrong with me?” “Why I’m such a looser” etc. it’s devastating.
I had several vibes of conversion therapy from the SciShow videa and was wondering if that's really what they meant.
I'm on the ADHD part of the neurodiversity spectrum. And I'd like to thank you for this video. I agree a lot with you and I really like how you explain everything.
Fantastic response! Exactly what I thought as I watched the SciShow episode earlier this week.
fantastic video! i hope they make a second video addressing these points.
i also really feel like they downplayed the harm that Dr asperger was causing. he was deciding who was going to be killed or not. that shouldnt be left unsaid.
I have just started unmasking from years of trying to fit in. In late high school I thought to myself, "F thus, they are never going to accept me at this school." I may as well just do what I want. So I wore a pink sunhat, kept the school senior skirt past my knees and made announcements about youth group at every assembly. Then I left school and couldn't fit in even more, had to leave the bullying at home and got bullied everywhere. Lost all my school and non-school friends. Life just broke me so I went back to the masking I'd been doing from early childhood. I didn't know about any of this until only .oaths ago testing myself against DSM-5 assessments. I have been in burn out for the last 10+ years, causing depression, anxiety and more masking. Now I am terrified of the workplace where the worst human behaviour carries on (in my opinion). Bullies are the managers, 5min late means losing 1hrs pay and repeated dressing downs. Working over 1hr without pay goes unnoticed. People are friendly but 2 faced. I can't handle the fake people any more! 😢😢😢❤❤❤
Thank you so much for writing out captions for your videos! It helps me hear and understand a little better when I can read ahead a little bit
I started watching your video first, before stopping early and switching to the SciShow video. Im glad i did, you masterfully captured and distilled the issues and refuted them excellently.
I say this as someone who masks frequently, often to the point that i become exhausted.
Thank you very much for making this video. I truly hope Sci-Show watches this.
A fantastic response 💕 I really appreciate how you broke down exactly where and what they got wrong and applied real knowledge and for lack of a better word right now receipts to back it up!
I love Vlog Brothers and Scishow, it's clear they wanted to do a video that was helpful, and I do hope they respond to this one!
i'm just waiting to watch it before i comment
Very helpful. I am glad you are addressing the issue. They did the same with my disease. It was upsetting to see yourself misrepresented. I hope they see this and apply the learnings to all their presentations past, future, present.
I’m freshly diagnosed at the age of 30. I’ve been heavily masking my entire life And since the pandemic I’ve completely shut down and barely leave my apartment. I’m not sure how I’m going to deal with the situation from now on. I’m starting to see some troublesome things in the recommendations the clinic made.(It’s the only clinic that diagnoses autism that is covered by the Canadian health insurance in our area) but thanks for showing me this analysis of the SciShow video. I’ve loved their videos for years, I wasn’t expecting them to make one about autism, but I guess they are really just focused on the scientific aspect of it. I doubt it was their intention to make a cringe video!
ty for this video :) i had such strong feelings about that video but i didn’t wanna leave a hate comment yk? ty for speaking up for us who are too anxious to make a video, i hope they make a redo video about “what is autism?” and cover every facet as in depth as possible
Because of the problems with the SciShow video, I have not included in my playlist of videos about autism that I keep for my spouse to watch. I like it better when others corroborate the things I spout.
Looking in the eye: eons ago, someone told me that I should look people in the eye when I talk to them. So, I did. About 10 years later, someone else said that I shouldn't look people in the eye all the time because it is unnerving for them---or, gives them the wrong impression. So, now I consciously look in the eyes, look away, look in the eyes, look away, etc. Can I follow what's being exchanged? Nope. Additionally, I have tried to explain to my spouse that looking them in the eye has as much impact emotionally for me as looking at their elbow. It's just body parts.
THIS video is on my autism playlist to share with my spouse. :-)
Autistic/AuDHD RUclipsrs with some great vids on the subject include Ponderful, Yo Samdy Sam, I Am MindBlind, and Purple Ella. 💜♾️
Wow that sounds super annoying and unhelpful. To clarify, there is a sort of unspoken time limit with the eye contact thing, too much and it becomes too intimate or creepy or intimidating whereas not enough eye contact and you seem to not be paying attention. I'm sure that is very annoying to hear, but I figured you would at least like some sort of explanation.
I've struggled with this a tiny bit as well, constantly looking out the window or doodling, paying perfect attention to the teacher yet still getting called out for not paying attention.
Fantastic review, Paul. Thank you.
I reckon that neurotypical (including nearly all employers) insisting on so much 'proper communication' and 'social skills' for Autistic people is due to them (NTs) not having any real social skills & being limited in communication to superficial, shallow and mostly meaningless, more often than not manipulative word utterings.
I am constantly observing and analyzing their interactions between themselves only (especially at work and in meetings) and I am constantly blown away by how that communication is mostly fake, insincere, uninteresting and clumsy.
A few years ago I met at work the most interesting guy ever, I enjoyed his mind so much and I was thinking this guy gotta be Autistic too, no way he is NT, he was so weird and off beat in such a nice way. So it turned out he is most likely Autistic, too but can't get diagnosis for some reason.
Man, I feel this so hard. We have a terrible coworker who is incredibly superficial (and a fraud, actually) and the NTs at my workplace seem to think she's great because she can schmooze with them and butter up the leadership team. That kind of nonsense doesn't work on me at all and while she stresses me out a TON it has been at least somewhat amusing to see her realizing that her usual schmoozy tactics don't work on me at all and to see her kind of panic when I call her out on her BS.
@@ewestner Yeah, if a study were done I bet they would find infomercials do NOT work on autistic people! Just a random autistic thought here. I feel the same about the surface small talk...and people LISTEN to it...and LOVE it! Blows me away that they suck up and eat it up.
@Tilly850 so far I'm only diagnosed ADHD but strongly suspect AuDHD, and I haaaaaaaate commercials SO HARD. I try to avoid them at all costs and I hate talking to salespeople.
@@Tilly850 I believe that study has already been done; it rings a bell.
@@ewestner I loved watching informercials as a teen because I knew what they were after and I categorically denied to give them anything. But some were so egregious and honestly offending that I had an almost violent reaction to them. I think it is something in the tone of voice that just sets me off. Which I can often observe when listening to people I know intend to manipulate and incite me. Especially when I also see their face on TV. That's in large part why I avoid political talk shows or watch reactions to them. Too much whiplash that needs to be broken up.
Thank you for one of the most Intelligent and Articulate Dissections of our Current Health, Medical and Science Based Approach to Autism. Your Calm & Rational approach is like a breath of fresh air in a stifling room of choking, old anecdotal ideas. Your excellent contribution to this most important matter cannot be overstated. Please keep up the great work. Again, many thanks. Cheers from Michael. Australia..
I have never been diagnosed. After having both my boys tested for and diagnosed with ADHA in the nineties, I realized I might have an answer for my own social and intellectual difficulties throughout my childhood and life. Maybe I have it too?... At 67 I realized I have been trying to fit in,(square peg) my whole life. I have done a lot of damage to myself trying to. Mostly psychologically. Feeling “different” than EVERYONE else caused me inner hatred. I desperately needed people to like me, but I didn’t fit in.
Loving myself for who I am, the way I am has been a challenge I only recently achieved. I hope everyone here realizes they’re worthy of love. We are not broken, just think differently.
That is a very accurate summary. I would have been kinder in most points, since they really seemed to have made an effort. But regarding ABA I could not agree more. Thank you for putting this out there.
Those are all valid points. It is a sight for sore eyes that they are now being said. Not the video talked about, but the comments you made. And the ideas you communicated as well as the effects. They do make a difference.
As someone who's self diagnosed, no medical insurance so I can't get tested but I've done my research, this was refreshing and helped to add to my understanding of what's been bothering me my whole life. Thank you for how you responded to SciShow. Seeing everything in retrospect now after having watched both of these videos, I feel a little bit better about how my mind works and that hopefully soon more people will understand trying to be normal is weird.
Great response video. This comment mainly exists to feed the algorithm in the hope that it helps the video land on Hank's eyeballs at some point. I think he made his video in good faith and it was mostly a good step forward, like you said, but we can't let the conversation stop there when people are being hurt.
Looking forward to this, thank you.
Very well said, Paul!
I'm really glad to see this video. I usually love SciShow's stuff, but their autism video made me really uncomfortable, and this response helped me put into words why. I really hope they listen to the community's criticism and do better next time
Problem with aba of course also being reasons behind, there is a difference between learning to handle situations but looking in someones eyes or hug someone? Isn’t it OBVIOUS those CRAVING these things from someone else is deeply DISTURBED and that person is the one needing aba to quit it! The shivers throuugh my body are even visible from listening to that last part! Because it’s spoken of like that’s not even THE problem. Typicals are the effin problem.
I thought the video was more good than bad, on balance. I share quite a few of the criticisms covered here and wish there were some things covered that it didn’t cover. Really grateful for this video, as Hank Green and SciShow team tend to be very welcoming and receptive of this kind of criticism! Hope they’re able to respond
Excellent video. I hope Sci Show people see this and make suggested improvements in future videos that talk about autism and/or neurodiversity.
I am autistic ... I personally was not a fan of the video ... I felt the cringe
I have an autistic son, he’s 6 with limited verbal abilities but starting to use language and is developing this ability more and more.
I have heard a lot of negative comments recently from autistic adults on line about an interventions and I would really like to understand from an adult perspective what the issue is with therapy and interventions?
As his mum I want to help him to be understood whether through speaking, sign or PECs. I feel helping him develop these skills is really important for his quality of life and he has been taught PECs and has speech therapy. It can be a challenge sometimes as he doesn’t want to engage but I suppose my feelings are that all children have to have an education and many if not most don’t always want to engage.
Please don’t come after me in the comments, I’m genuinely interested in hearing the perspective of adults with autism especially if you’re nonverbal or mostly non verbal. I’d also love to know what support did help and was a positive experience?
Notice how he doesn't use any data in this video. It's all feeling based. Feelings are important, but his feelings are anecdotal. The comment on how making a square peg fit in a round hole damages it is pure allegory. Is there actual evidence that all behavioural modifications are bad? Neurotypical children also have to be socialised and taught what's appropriate, what's rude, etc. It's clear that you have to teach some behaviours. I understand that interventions can be taken too far, but they have a place. I have ADHD, if I don't consciously look out for it, I can absolutely dominate a conversation. Not reading the room, not taking others into consideration since I'm talking about whatever my hyper fixation is. Is this appropriate? No, it's not. I'll sometimes slip up and do it anyway, and those close to me understand, but they also understand that I don't do it intentionally. This attitude of "that's just how I am" isn't helpful.
Autistic adult and currently working on my PhD in cognitive psychology. With treatments and interventions it depends on the autistic individual. Every autistic individual is different and as such not every intervention will be beneficial for them. The basic guidelines is to recognize that nothing is wrong with the autistic individual and that treatments and interventions should only be used to improve their well-being and not the well-being of neurotypical peers. This means you do not want to correct behaviors that only benefit neurotypical people such as eye contact. However, speech therapy is mostly okay. Autistic people want to communicate. However the problem is that most neurotypical people do not want to listen. Communication comes in multiple forms and sometimes it won't be verbal. For example arranging cars might be a form of communication for an autistic individual but a neurotypical person might only see repetitive behavior. Language is repetitive behavior. I had ABA therapy and from my experience it was good. However, I am more of an exception than the rule. Most ABA therapy focuses on correcting autistic behaviors into neurotypical behaviors. For truly good ABA therapy you need a therapist that focuses on improving the autistic child's life and not fitting them into a mold. For example, I was encouraged to use my emotions and describe them. However, I was never forced to describe them nor was I punished when I did not. My therapist was kind to me and realized my limits. I have poor eye contact and as such I was never forced to keep my eye contact with them while talking. A good way to tell if the ABA therapy is good for them is that the autistic child is more expressive and eager to share themselves with you. Other good forms of treatment are animal therapy and working with a dietitian. Dietitians can be beneficial because of most autistic people's limited diets. When working with the dietitian, it is important not to force foods onto to autistic people or punish them for not eating but slowly introduce them to new foods. Also learn about their experience with foods. Many autistic people including myself have sensory issues with certain food textures. I cannot eat raspberries because the texture feels like sandpaper in my mouth. Understanding how your autistic child interacts with their food allows you a better understanding why they do not like certain foods.
Thank you so much for your comments, they are very really helpful. It’s so important to me he grows up knowing we love him for who he is and all the speech therapy and communication books are to help him, because we want to know his choices, preferences and feelings.
We have recently started pony rides for my son, not necessarily as therapy just for fun, and he is really enjoying them.
This was a great response video! Encompassed a lot of the feelings I had about the scishow video. While it was made with good intents and in a lot of ways did help progress a better mainstream understanding of autism, it failed to recognize the systems at play. I think Scishow could stand to give more attention to the truth that science is not and never has been unbiased. What questions get funding, who is studied, and who gets to do the studying will always be important, and that shows especially when it comes to science around historically and socially marginalized groups.
This is wonderful. Even if the SciShow folks don't see this, it was very helpful to me as an autistic person who has only known the neurodiversity paradigm. I was unfamiliar with most of the earlier theories of autism.
Great analysis! I appreciate your depth of insight and balanced approach 👍