The miniDSP 2x4HD is an ABSOLUTE GAME CHANGER for Home Theater!
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- I recently decided to dive into the world of miniDSP with the 2x4 HD. This device has taken my dual JTR RS2's to a whole new level! Buy the miniDSP 2x4 HD here - amzn.to/2UsjhxB
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My jaw dropped when you made his line visible! Haha I need one of these and one of HIM
You have answered a lot of questions for me. Your teaching style is exemplary
Thanks; even before moving the sub-woofers and taking measurements of the room's response I would recommend using the feature in REW that models the frequency nodes. One just enters the dimensions of the room, the positions of the speakers and the listener and it graphs the response in the room before lifting anything
Timing of this video is uncanny for me! I too watched Home theatre Gurus tutorial on multi sub setup with REW & miniDSP a couple of times. Excellent tutorial but wish there was a cheat sheet version for reference. After spending about 15 hours previously on figuring how to use REW, umik1 & miniDSP & still falling short, I just spent 6 hours yesterday tweaking the system...finally success! Lessons learned (& still learning) are similar to your experience. Per Home Theater Guru’s video, I learned sub placement is critical and I moved each sub one by one to minimize the severity of the nulls. Then played them both and found through trial & error which sub required the time delay. Through placement and time alignment you get the subs as good as you possibly can get without EQ, then go into REW and use the EQ tab to achieve the target curve. Patience is paramount to this whole process but it is all worth it in the end!
Your assessment is spot on David. That is the exact order we did with my room.
Youthman but it sounds like you didn’t change the placement of your subs. It also looks like you didn’t need to, lol
He had impressive help manipulating REW, plus those subs look like they can handle it!
Youthman quote of the day "I need to go check my drawers kind of thing to make sure something didn't slip out"
🤣
That's awesome you guys were able to fine tune the subwoofer frequencies.😉👍
😁 That's exactly what I was feeling at the moment. haha
Great video! I just actually used my MiniDSP for the first time this weekend. I think the reason for the slope is our ears have a harder time hearing
That would make sense.
Just seeing this video now (1 year later). It's amazing how much things improve when we find out how little we know about our system and then work to get the most out of it. Like Gene already mentioned, proper multi sub placement is key to getting better bass. Hindsight being 20/20...Looking back at your other setups (before the JTR subs), if you had taken the time to learn REW and the Mini DSP the same way that you did now, you could have gotten very similar results with your other subs. I'm sure the JTR have more output, but as far as the response goes, (since most of that is room and placement dependant) with proper tuning you could have had similar results. In my own room (today), I have 4 SB-2000 Pros tuned via REW, MSO, and MiniDSP. My bass response is flat from around 10Hz to 100Hz. It take lots of time and learning, or a good friend who knows how to work with it all, but it's possible. I'm sure that today your bass response is even better and hopefully the same across all seats (like Gene was alluding to in his comment).
Hello! Just wanted to let you know that the rise in output in the lower frequencies of the subwoofer response is due to the way our ears perceive sub bass. You need to have that rising response the lower the frequency gets for you're perception of flat response, even if it measures as a rise. So, it just the way our ears and bodies respond to lower frequencies.
Correct that’s why most of us prefer a house curve
Home theater guru's videos also helped me figure out how to use the minidsp and is one of the reasons I got one! A great resource to learn from. I'm still learning audio and going down the rabbit hole. Thanks for the video!
Congrats on getting such great results! I plan on giving REW and a miniDSP 2x4 HD a shot once my dual Rhythmik F18s come in. The whole process seems very complicated and daunting and I don't have a friend like Tony to help me out. I'll watch as many RUclips videos on the subject and check out the forums for help. Thanks for posting this to show it's worth the effort!
Thanks, most of what we did was exactly what Stephen shows in his video Home Theater Guru. Tony did a few other things
From what I understand the house curve sloped upward as you get lower in Hertz is good cuz you don't want to lose output on some of that serious, chest-pounding, impactful bass. A lot of times guys will have what they think are bad subs and you run a sweep on them and you see that they're almost running a flat line of dipped line. The house curve will increase the output at the lower decibel and the bass response is just better.
Just want to say your videos are highly appreciated. Not only because they're so well done, but more because they're clean and respectful in a world full of negativity and filth. Thank you!
Thank you Erik. You will never have to worry about watching any of my videos even in front of young children.
@@Youthman exactly what I've noticed loud and clear. You're also refreshingly humble which makes it easy and pleasurable to listen to and learn from your videos. They're great and please keep them coming.
Happy for you that you got to experience what minidsp can do for your bass!
I use it as well and can get a similar curve in my room with 4 svs sb12-nsd subs, although in my room they only extend to about 16hz -3db because of roomgain.
Next up would be to learn understanding waterfall, IR, delay and phase plots to try and get 'the best' integration with your mains.
About your initial left and right summed subs plot , being that you lost so much output at those low frequencies (long wavelengths), it almost looks to me that your subs were 180 degrees out of phase. Of course i don't know your exact room size and equipment setup, but might be something to look in to if you ever decide to do it all over.
Enjoy your smooth bass sir! I know what a gamechanger it can be!
Home Theater Gurus videos are amazing!!! He really does know his stuff and breaks it down so most can understand. Amazing and unbelievable what he did with your subs!!! He needs to start offering remote room EQing.
Tony and Steven could certainly make a good income doing that.
The best bass test on a star is born is the opening scene. If it’s setup right, those drums will sound real. and yep, that 1917 scene literally made me jump out of my seat no joke
I'll have to check out that scene. We always jumped to the music scenes.
It is a music scene and it rocks :)
@@Youthman Hey Michael, can you check what is the timestamp for that "1917" scene you talked about ? (: haven't seen the movie yet ..
Thanks, Eran
@@eran1081 I'm just guessing, but I think he might be talking about the tunnel explosion. I can't remember the exact time stamp though.
You are correct. It’s near the beginning of the movie. Get ready!
Yes, even using a basic CD freq test disc and Radioshack C weighted sound level meter, we knew that you could get near complete phase cancelation between two opposing subwoofers from a listening position, a long time ago! Now the measurements just look more fancy on a lap top with software and some fun graphs. Still have to find the best seating and speaker placement locations, plus acoustical treatment applications, furniture moving, yada yada.
Your enthousiasm always makes me happy. You can sell me anything!
Glad I bring a smile to your day.
Thanks for bringing back that famous catch phrase 👍 what a transformation your system just had.. wow. 😊
Glad you enjoyed it Garth. Was just thinking it might be getting "old"
@@Youthman never 😉
Great video Youthman! I started researching MiniDSP's a couple days ago. Great timing with your video release! You nailed it when you said it's overwhelming without good video instruction. Man, are there a lot of settings and variables and there is no one around to help answer questions. But you linked up you pal's video dissertation on the config/setup of REW so I'm gonna watch that next in my quarantined state of Colorado. Thanks Youth!
Glad it was helpful Ken!
I hope all your filters are on the output so you can take advantage of BEQ on the input side ! If your mind is blown now, wait until you can take
advantage of that extension on every movie that’s out. The miniDSP + BEQ is the best investment to a home a theater period.
Zachary....gimme some time to soak up the miniDSP before throwing more new stuff to learn my way. Haha. I've heard great things about BEQ and honestly have no idea what it's about. One day down the road I'll tackle that beast too. And yes, we added EQ on the Output side.
@@Youthman No need to wait, you'll be up and running in less than 30 min and be watching movies with BEQ only from there on out. Head over to the BEQ thread, its simple. You've already overcame the hard part which is REW and Minidsp. BEQ is a few mouse clicks away!!!
Interesting. Can you send me a link?
@@Youthman www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2995212-bass-eq-filtered-movies-431.html
@@Youthman Download the BEQ Designer app. Merge your current Minidsp Config with it. And boom you're ready to watch movies. Message me and i can walk you through it by phone, shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. Download the app and we'll go from there.
You don't need to learn the app so don't feel overwhelmed, you only need to do one thing in there and that's it. Message me when you're ready.
Love your enthusiasm Youthman. I’ve upgraded to dual Svs SB2000 pro’s and after watching many Rew videos purchased the Umik too.
I then discovered Stephens channel, fantastic, well explained content. Once you start using Rew it will all make sense.
While the minidsp HD sounds like
a must, I’m going to try svs built in app to see if I can dial in as in theory it should allow me to cover most options. If not, minidsp HD it will be!
One thing I have discovered after using Rew, my Yamaha A3070 has a sub output issue, subs are loosing so much output from 70Hz. My Kef L/R have been doing all the heavy lifting. Until I measured I didn’t know this, I often wondered why my subs worked during Yamaha configuration (YPAO) and worked very loud (-20dB - its a smaller room) yet at normal listening levels didn’t provide much (even when speakers set to small/80HZ). So Id agree, Rew/mic is a must. Going to test on another AVR and if confirmed, warranty time.
I can’t wait to mess around and get everything aligned and sounding amazing. Keep up the good work from your UK fan base!
If your using YPAO I'd save the hassle and get the MinDsp, the synergy between REW and the MiniDsp is excellent, easily upload PEQ's and more of them, time alignment which is even more important is more flexible too
1917 Blu-ray. My new go to reference disc for both audio and video to impress anyone. Trip wire enuf said! I also thought the room was collapsing on us,another incredible moment is when the planes fly over them the first time,blew me away. Great video. Keep up the good work
Dude, the trip wire! That was the scene I was referring to. Scared the mess out of us haha. The plane was awesome as well. I expected the plane crash to be more but it was eh.
I haven’t seen this movie in over a year
Nice video as usual man. Those nasty wide suckouts you measured for each sub are likely more to due with the cavity you placed those subs in. It's always a good idea to optimize placement and time/phase alignment Before engaging ANY EQ at all.
You can't use EQ to fix seat-seat variance. You can flatten common bumps across ALL of your seats IF you first fix seat-seat variance with proper multi-sub placement. You only show measurements in one seat location so it would be interesting to see how this set up affected other seats.
The massive 30dB suckout at very low F was odd since your subs are so closely spaced together and relatively the same distance from your seat. Were you using the same sub out of your processor when connecting each sub or did you have independent sub outs and just forget to adjust the delay on one of them? It's possible one of the subs was simply out of phase and you fixed it by adding delay once you added the mDSP box. The rising bass with lower F is part of the goal of developing a room curve for better sound and varies depending on the room size and speakers utilized.
Thanks Gene. Sub out into miniDSP, then sub outs on miniDSP to each sub.
Heard your first podcast today. Your new mic sounded good. :) Hope you are feeling well.
@@Youthman so we have an unsolved mystery here and I don't like those. I'd be curious if you removed the mDSP, and just connected both of those subs to a single sub out of your pre/pro. I've seen some weird phase issues when adding mDSP before and had to do more than anticipated changes in time alignment like you did. There should be no good reason why you needed to add 12ms delay to one sub given your placement unless there was a weird phase issue caused by mdSP or the controls on one of your subs. Email me if you want to discuss further. Peace.
@@Youthman thx man, excited to get that going.
Jene for a novice can i just get a umic and just test my svs 2000 pro sub with the software and just make slight changes with the eq in the svs app ?
I have never commented on our channel but there are few things that need to b pointed out.
First, Your raw (non EQ) response starts at 10Hz and your EQ response goes way below it. No EQ can achieve this. Clearly, you took before reading in REW starting from 10Hz and after EQ starting from 0. Please mention this in your video otherwise this can mislead others.
2 - I believe both of your subs are placed at the front of room b/w your L/C/R speakers? If that's correct then most likely you shouldn't have to add any delay. Adding 12ms of delay to align their response shows that you have polarity inverted in 1 of your sub. Take each sub reading without any EQ and turn acoustic timing reference on and then see in impulse response under Overlay window if their peaks are in same direction. Most likely they are in opposite directions which indicates that 1 of your sub is inverted.
3 - Your initial FR shows major room issues where you have your subs placed. I'd recommend you to move one of our sub to the back of your room. Most likely you'll get quiet the opposite response in the back of your room where you are going to gain all this midbass that you are missing in the front. Then after setting delays of both subs, you are going to get a very flat response without any EQ.
4 - When taking raw response, don't setup your subs to be crossed over at 120, Go as high as you can. I can explain why later if you need to know.
4 - Finally, the final FR you have that SAWK setup is called a House Curve. If you notice, 100Hz is almost 10dB lowered. That's because 100Hz sounds a lot louder than 70Hz and 70Hz sounds louder than 30Hz. In other workds, assuming you have flat response with any dips/peaks, play a 100Hz tone and see on spl what it reads. Then play 30Hz. You'll see that 30Hz will come a lot less than 100Hz. In order to compensate this, we use house curve where low end is ~10dB louder than high end.
Sheraz Khan thanks for these insights!
Wow those are some major improvements! Next up, MINI-DSP!
Quick hint: your microphone does not go as low as what you are showing on your graph.
What you see on your graph below 18Hz (the specification and calibration of your microphone) IS NOT the frequency response of your system, it’s basically random.
You need a way more expensive microphone to measure anything correctly to 10Hz or below.
Some people buy their UMIK professionally calibrated from Cross Spectrum Labs and they provide a .FRD calibration file from 5Hz to 25KHz.
"Our cal files range from 5 Hz to 25 kHz to encompass the low bass and high treble regions that many audiophiles, professionals and home theater aficionados require."
They are comparing their calibrated UMIK's to their expensive reference gear so I would assume there is some reason they are running it down to 5Hz.
I know this is late to the party, but first thing to try when seeing (hearing) a drop this significant (on any speakers, not just subs) is to verify that they are wired correctly in phase with each other. swap the positive and negative speaker lead on one speaker and it will improve dramatically. Don't trust the positive and negative markings on either the cabinet or the driver itself. Mistakes can happen when the speaker is built!
it is good that it slants down so it blends better with the low end of your speakers
also human hearing gets worse the lower and higher you get from the mids that we hear best
I am not sure about the quality of the DAC inside MiniDSP 2x4 or HD version. It does not have the digital out for me to connect to my DAC before distributing to my main speakers/sub. If I place my DAC before miniDSP 2x4 and it will go through internal A-D-A dual conversion. I just do not think the signal after so many conversions will still keep its quality intact. Then if I go the full digital route using SHD Studio, for example, the cost is almost $1000 which is not money I wish to spend. What do you suggest? Thx.
The cancellation between the two subs in your original setup is atypical. Looks as if they had opposite polarity. Regardless, the end result is phenomenal. Really surprised that you were able to get such a smooth response with both subs up front.
Thanks David. I’m glad Tony was able to help me dial them in in their location behind the screen as I do not have much floor space for subs.
Did you try inverting polarity on one of your two subs BEFORE adding delay?
I’m not sure as Tony was driving. He knows what he’s doing so I just watched. 👍
@@Youthman Any chance Tony would accept payment to do it remotely for others?
Unfortunately that’s not something he wants to get into as he has a full-time job and also works for JTR
Hi Youthman. One of your subwoofer must be out of phase.! Your room is a rectangle, and your subwoofer behind the screen is at equal distance to your center listening position, right.? There is no way you have to add 22ms (24.79ft) to get them in phase.! Just my humble opinion. Great video 👍
This is the logic behind a house curve (boost at the lower end of the curve): The EQ software sets EQ levels based on reference level (105 dB). Since our ears are less sensitive to lower frequencies at lower levels and we generally don't watch movies at reference level, the house curve is designed to manually compensate for listening at those lower levels. If your receiver does automatic or dynamic loudness compensation then it is best to NOT use a house curve, EQ flat, and let the receiver do the work of compensating gain in the lower bass range for you. It will sound MUCH better!
I have 3 subwoofers and I just added a 4th and my bass is now gone. After messing around for 2 days with placements and REW, I accepted defeat and realized I can’t make this work without further calibration.
I ordered the minidsp 2x4hd a couple of days ago and I’m so excited to get it up and running!
Great video man. I think too many people are hung up on having more or larger subs when all they really need is proper calibration.
Exactly. Sometimes the best approach is to properly dial in what you have instead of adding more hoping it will magically fix the issue.
Youthman Thank you for the video review.
I hit that subscribe button. 😊 Keep up the good work.
Straight over to your channel to find out what DSP was.... thank you sir!! You always come through for me!! You the man homie
Glad to help.
@@Youthman teaching me all the time brother!! I'm actually getting ready to drop a pt 2 on my TSR 700 due to a viewer question.... I hope you get a chance to check it out!!
I like you have found that finding any info online (RUclips, google,etc) almost impossible. The current videos on youtube are less than helpful in my opinion. I've recently went from a 5.2.2 surround system to a 7.4.4 system. I added 2 subs,two side surrounds and 2 extra ceiling speakers for atmos. But I have to be honest as I'm just going to hire a audio guy to come to my house to calibrate my system. I personally think it's worth it with the complexity of my system because I want it to sound awesome. I would love to do it myself but I just have to be honest with myself as I dont have the patience and i dont want the struggle of finding competent info online.
You don't need rew for two subs. There are ways to balance both with a test cd, an spl meter and graph paper. You can get good balanced bass with just those three items along with some years of experience. That's how we did it years ago and if you know what your doing, you can get pretty close to rew's graph. There are bass cd's and apps that play as low as 10hz. However, most movies will never hit that low anyways.
Nothing wrong with hiring someone. I prefer to know how my system was built and how to tweak it. But you are correct, time is the issue.
Of course you can do it manually but I for one have zero desire to do so. Let's say you chart it out and discover a null. Now you move one sub and have to redo the entire process. Then you move it again. No thanks. I'll take miniDSP any day of the week but that's just me.
@@Youthman i understand. However, if you keep things simple by spacing your subs equal to your listening position, the manual way works. There are test cd's and dvd's that have all kinds of test tones including phase, rumble, levels etc. However, you do need above average knowledge to do it right. You need to have a processor or receiver that splits the sub outputs separately. This won't work for outputs that are shared. Like a splitter. You can use negative peq to balance both subs. Nulls are nulls. You're gonna have em in every room.
It looks like Tony created a house curve. What where/are your Audyssey settings after you re-ran audyssey calibration? Is Audyssey on/off? If on is it set to reference or flat? Dynamic Eq on or off?
I upgraded my 2x4HD to the DDRC-24 and I can never go back. I've had it for almost 3 years and it still boggles my mind how awesome it is!
That looks cool Bob. I didn't realize they had a miniDSP with built in Dirac Live.
@@Youthman They have a couple, but the Dirac Live is just a software upgrade for the 2x4HD so anyone can add it to theirs.
What's the added benefit of Dirac?
Audsssy boosts frequencies FYI. Also you can now use MSO to tweak the subs
Mike I remember watching 1917 at IMAX (not liemax), that scene where the tripwire goes off was insane. I jumped out of my seat because it went from 70dB to what seemed like 150dB in a split second. It was amazing. I rewatched it in my home theater with dual pb2000s and I was so underwhelmed. You need serious power and SPL to recreate that
Hahaha yes that was the scene! Absolutely INSANE!
Great videos (yours and the linked guide). Just got my minisDSP and have it all setup. Worth every penny!
A follow up or advanced tricks and tips video would be great. My FR is definitely much better, and this allowed me to mix sealed and ported subs seamlessly. But I still have some small bumps and valleys despite a well treated symmetrical room...so I’m sure there’s more to know that I don’t :).
And FYI for everyone, you can make the miniDSP remote a device in your harmony. Just add a new device and search for miniDSP. Device model is shd.
Thx for the tip on the Harmony
Awesome video! Sounds like you need to keep some emergency underwear in the theater... 😂
I do!
You got that measurement, in your room without a groundplane outside....and your speaker goes to DC. pretty cool. That mic also goes to DC. Yes measurements are a good thing. Thanks for the video
Glad you enjoyed it
This is a good video that could have been great. Wish you would have commented more on what you did instead of what your listening impressions were. Knowing how you were able to get rid of the null at 100Hz would have been fantastic. Hopefully you will do a followup. In any case I always enjoy your videos. Thanks.
I can understand but here is the difficult part...Tony was “driving” my computer and making all of the tweaks to REW and MiniDSP through Team Viewer. I was tracking pretty well with what he was doing but some of it was new to me (setting up ISAO, using REW to determine the exact delay by pinging the center channel and comparing it to each sub, setting a house curve etc) so I’m not exactly sure I could recreate that just yet as it was the first time I had ever done that.
The other issue is it took us 4 hours (10pm to 2am). Some of it was simply trial and error to see what produced the best FR in my room.
Everyone wants a simple follow Step 1, Step 2 and Step 3 and you will get a flat FR. unfortunately it’s just not that simple and it takes a really long time to make a video that detailed, which is exactly why I’m pointing everybody to Steven Smith‘s video because he is much smarter at this than I am and already has done a step by step tutorial on his channel.
@@Youthman , I understand the issues and difficulty. Your comments to Martin_3_8 are a great starting point. As you stated there is no simple step by step that can be used so it is nice to learn a little from everyones experience. Also as a side note there is also software called "Multi Sub Optimizer" that might be worth a look. Keep up the good work - loved video of Tonys HT.
Thx for the tip
The downward slant is called a house curve. It's highly recommended so that you can hear the lower frequencies (the lower the frequency the more difficult it is to hear the LFE).
Ah! I've heard guys mention adding a "house curve". Thx for clarifying!
@@Youthman Btw, after months of procrastination, your video just convinced me to order the Umik-1 and miniDSP 2x4HD. Even added the IR remote. Now I'll spend the next week digesting HTG's video. :)
Good luck! It takes some time to get it dialed in but it’s certainly worth it
Fantastic video! Now I'm looking forward to tuning my two SVS PB-2000's within my room. Thanks!
Go for it!
I know what I need to buy next, thanks Michael! 😎
Hey Michael. I loved getting your opinion on how much of a difference it made in your setup. I just pulled the trigger on the MiniDSP today. I’ve spent the past couple of weeks watching Stevens videos and wrapping my head around the concepts while playing around with REW. I’m seeing similar dips in my sweeps that you have. Both my subs are in the front between my mains and center like yours. So what would you say was the biggest difference in approach that you took with Tony that helped the most?
About to order a MiniDSP for my 2.1 music-centric setup. I just need to buy or rent a Tony and I’ll be golden.
Always wondered what those were used for and because of your vid, i now know and understand their purpose. Thats crazy how that little device can fix the curves.
Some have referred to it as the “Magic Box”
Youthman haha. I can see why 😂
That was a GREAT video! Your explanation of a fairly complex topic was clear and understandable to almost anyone. - Thanks for the great content.
Glad it was helpful!
I’ve learned a lot from your videos. I recently upgraded all my equipment to all Klipsch RP with a Denon x6700H. Running as 5.2.4. My setup is currently in my living room for now. With more additional equipment on the list to add. Looks like this is a must have.
Congratulations and thank you for the kind words. I know for my system it made a massive difference in my frequency response. I guess it really depends on how your room is acoustically. Mine isn’t so hot apparently LOL
@@Youthman Thanks! its funny after upgrading, the bug has bitten me and now looking at other brands (such as SVS, Emotiva, Parasound, Monolith) and what level do I want to move to and where I want to go with things. The other half of the battle is negotiations with my wife to acquiring more Equipment. I would really love to hear your feed back on direction that I would like to go. Everyone that I know is not really into HT as I am and the direction I want to go and Facebook some are just rude... If you don't mind and I would like to reach out to you on your FB group and chat a bit more?
Absolutely. Just tag me in the post in the youthman crew Facebook group.
do you think someone starting off can understand all this and how it works? I've always been intimidated by the miniDSP but I think it would be the single best upgrade to any system only problem is getting it to work. I would honestly pay someone to tune my stuff remotely but this takes time. This is when knowing people willing to help is important.
Depends on what "starting off" means. For someone that knows zero about home theater, yes this is going to be way over their head. But I believe anyone can learn this. It just takes time and the willingness to learn. There are lots of guys in the AVS Forums and various Facebook Groups that can help when you get stuck.
@@Youthman great info like always. Im ok with things just not of this level Ill check out you friends video and see if im up to going the extra mile. Pretty sure this would change my HT completley.
@@taxi615 i can help, message me
@@geojustgeo3219 I'll have to buy one before lol but send me an email when I get one we can figure it out together.
Jeanmarc_giroux@yahoo.ca
Have you played with your phase settings, going from 2subs to 4 subs that are a few feet apart should never kill over 30db of output. Especially in sealed chambers.
Yeah, it looked to me that he was out of phase with one of the subs. Maybe that's why he doesn't want to expose the details...
At the end of 4hrs, we (well mostly Tony) adjusted a lot of settings. There's still a lot of this that is over my head but I'm excited to learn all that I can.
Don't you just love that? You get your setup dialed in and it's like "well now I have to go re-watch all of these movies!" I honestly must have watched Into The Spiderverse and Annabelle: Creation 2 dozen times or more because I keep getting better and better response everytime I build a new sub. I am now pretty consistently flat across the board. I'm hitting 100dB at 10Hz and going flat from there to about 100Hz where I hit some SBIR issues that I'm currently working through.
I can't explain how stoked I am that you finally got your MiniDSP config set up, I'd love to see some SPL numbers from your theater, I bet you're over 130 EASY. That tune is dope, Tony hooked you up man, I've been working at mine for months and months and I still am always learning and discovering new ways to get my tune tighter. I've recently dove into building my own house curve. That's a lot of fun but can be tedious for various listening levels. You and I both have LOTS of headroom though so we can dial in a super aggressive curve and just barely warm up the amps. Dang this is so cool, man! I'm so happy your theater has new life breathed into it and I'm super stoked you're getting these results sealed.
I don't get the same response you do below 10Hz, I'm running a heavily aggressive HPF (48dB/oct) so at 9Hz I'm down like 6dB, LOL! Keep it up man, I can't wait to see what the future brings this theater, this is so motivating!
Thanks! It's been a lot of fun but a LOT to learn as well.
Dude... MiniDSP is a magic box. It was so awesome after getting a flat bass response. You don't realize how much you are missing until it's there. Great overview of the process and excellent results man!
Thanks Kyle.
Ah and about the curve downwards in output from 20 to 100hz its truly the desired outcome. It all has to do with the way our ears perceive low frequencies. Lets say that you hear a 100hz tone in 75db...to match that loudness at 30hz you need at least 10db more at that freq...about 85db. Thats a house curve and as long as its seamless without dips and nulls, you r set to go!
Thanks, I have heard people use the term "house curve" but wasn't sure what it was.
Looks like the REW filters did get rid of some of the nulls. Seems to me that you still have to be careful with the filters so they don't exceed +6dB as some subwoofers can bottom out with the EQ. A frequency sweep in REW won't push the subwoofers as much as an actual movie playing. So you might still hear some knocking if there is no headroom in the sub. Just a thought.
We used the filters to reduce the levels to flatten the curve because there was so much headroom in the amp.
Yes a new upload!👍
Hopefully another tomorrow as well.
Excellent info. Are all the curves shown or made during your DSP sessions from a single seating location or averaging multiple locations?
These were all taken from the primary listening position. I did not measure seat to seat. 4hrs was enough for me LOL
The scene you're talking about from 1917. When we watched it, everyone in my family jumped except me. I was like alright, that was kinda expected.
I expected it, I just didn’t expect that much authority from (4) 18’s in my JTR Captivator RS2. I would not have jumped like that if I still had my PB16’s.
@@Youthman I get what you mean. Your home theater must truly sound amazing. I've got a pretty nice setup with my main speakers but I think I'm due for an upgrade in the sub department. I'm rocking some old 100W Tannoy that goes down to about 35Hz. But after all I got it bundled with a set of speakers that was an amazing deal. Thank you for the content you make! Keep up the great work.
Thank you kindly. Yeah I’m not sure a 100 watt single sub would make me jump during that scene either.
Watching Theater Gurus vid and following his directions made me feel like I bought an entire new theater. Never heard it sound this good before! Used my PEQ on my PB-2000 Pro.
Awesome!
Youthman in the video you said you weren't sure what that curve was and why it's there. It's called a house curve. Theater Guru describes what it is and it's there because when you are not listening to reference level, your ears hear deep frequencies, especially 30Hz and lower, quieter even if it is read on an SPL as being the same. So that boost is what makes it sound amazing. I can't believe what this trick did for me. I was seriously about to buy a whole new setup until I found this out. Now I really don't need anything new! Now I hear what I bought. He explains it at 58:00 in his video! I HIGHLY RECOMMEND WATCHING THAT REALLY QUICK! I know you'd be interested in learning why that is true!
Youthman The human ear is a strange thing lol. Also I 100% agree with how you felt about 1917. I've been watching my favorite movies with this new calibration and it's a whole other experience. I really want to go back and watch everything over because it is just ridiculous. I can't believe I was listening to movies the way I was before. CRAZY MAN! 7.1.2 Klipsch theater, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, with a PB-2000 Pro. No words. Just WOW lol. I wish I knew about REW and your channel years ago. And obviously Theater Guru. Ridiculously smart guy.
Thanks. Steven is way more knowledgeable than I am in a lot of areas. Super nice guy too. We chat quite often
@@kyleshays - If your receiver does any kind of automatic loudness compensation then it's best to EQ flat and let the receiver do the work for you with its continuously variable automatic low-frequency boost. The PEQ software adjusts for flat response at reference level. The house curve attempts to correct that at lower volume levels in a manual, fixed fashion. When I first EQ'd mine it still didn't sound right. I went back through HTG's video and picked up on him saying this about automatic or dynamic loudness correction (missed that the first time through) and it made all the difference in the world!
Too bad we couldn't see a comparison with the dual PB16s optimized with the MiniDSP. They won't go down to a clean 10hz, but I wonder if it would've delivered a similar visceral impact for movies.
The PB16's have been moved into retirement until COVID-19 passes and I am able to list them locally. Unfortunately it's a huge deal to replace the JTR subs to test the PB16's only to turn around and put the JTR's back in place. The PB16's are great speakers but I can assure you the JTR's are next level.
Thats all good, happy you fine tuned your system, but it doesnt help a lot the rest of us, bassoholics. Now the ideal video would be to have another getogether with your buddy that helped you eq your system and make a detailed tutorial on how you got this response in your system....there r a lot of us,who in the pursue of perfect bass in our HT system, have already bought all the tools but we lack the knowhow to achieve these results. So in my opinion the perfect vid would be the one that explains in detail what you guys did to get to these results. As you said there is little to none info out there,on practicly using tools like rew, minidsp and audyssey multiEQ in perfect conjuction to get great audio results, especially in the bass region. So be a pioneer and spread the knowldge, it would be a ton of help to many many people!! Thanx a lot and keep on the good work!!
Thanks, that was the reason for me pointing you to Steven's video. He has an in depth walkthrough with much of what we did during our 4hr remote session. Much of what we did was trial and error so do do a simple Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 and you will get a flat response simply isn't possible.
@@Youthman Wow thanx for the quick reply! I've watched Stevens video and i really enjoyed it. In fact its the same video that got me started, diving into real measurements and tweaking of my HT. The thing though, is that Steven refers in this video only to REW and minidsp HD 2x4 and how you could get a flat base response WITHOUT using the Audyssey multiEQ of your receiver. In his case(having a dedicated room with perfect acoustic treatment, calculated room dimensions, the same 4 potent subs strategically placed etc) maybe its better not to EQ over the modal area of sound. But i think for the majority of us, we need to incorporate the receiver's EQ, for the whole bandwidth of sound, in addition with what Steven shown in his video. The way though to do this, after extensive personal experiments i might say, is a bit tricky. Without getting into details, i bet your friend, kind of used all the tools in his disposal to achieve this result which i find excellent!(i'd also really like to see, besides the Frequency Response graph that you showed us, the spectrogram graph, impulse response, waterfall, decay graphs). Of course every room is different and has its own problems but, with the right tools and knowhow, you could make the best of it. I saw your video enjoying his perfect HT set up and honestly i felt a bit jealous hehehe. Sorry for the lengthy response, but i strongly believe that a solid, step by step tutorial of dealing with the bass management nightmare, is going to help A LOT of people, saving money out of unnecessary expensive buys, getting a bang for their buck and ultimately enjoing their set ups to the fullest...Thanx again!
Now that you've got the miniDSP set up, maybe you should take a look at BEQ. It's very easy to load into miniDSP. Would love a video with your impressions.
Thanks for a fun video!
You guys are killing me. Might have to check out the BEQ hype!
Those charts you are showing is CRAZY! The difference sould be HUGE!. Time to rediscover your collection XD...hehe.
i have had mine for over a year...same issues...maybe will finally try to install.
It's a bit daunting at first but with patience, it is worth the effort.
Home Theater Gurus's tutorial is what finally got me to pull the trigger on the minidsp 2x4hd. Great video that clearly explains how to work the device. I can't wait to dial in my subs.
Great to hear!
Dubtronix. Hey Youthman, really like your videos, never commented ever on RUclips, you’re the first. I would to know if you got that flat respnse by moving the front 2 subs or was it purely electronic trickery ? Thanks
Nigel Purnell yes i am curious about that.
I can’t really move my subs as I have limited space between my Klipsch LaScalas. We did find we got slightly better response by facing the subs towards the side walls instead of forward but it wasn’t a huge difference.
Tony sent me the overall steps we went through with my setup:
1. Gain match each sub
2. Level match each sub
3. Time Align each sub to the furthest sub
4. Phase match each sub
5. Run Room Correction Software
6. Run PEQ with MiniDSP if you have one
7. Setup a house curve
Youthman thank you very much for the info. I thought step 5 is the last step we should do, i was wrong then.
Great video buddy, lol hopefully your drawers made it out of that movie without mud in their eye ;)!
Haha thanks
Something you can do to dial in that low bass even better is do something I like to call "wag the dog" and that is to use a shelf filter to tune your lowest bass by ear. The Umik-1 typically has some error in the response (unless you have the fully calibrated one from cross-spectrum) below 40hz and it could be measuring 2 db high or low at 20 hz. To "wag the dog" add a PEQ (perhaps on your input) and use the high_shelf filter with Q of 0.5 and Frequency around 10 hz. You then can dial in the gain setting to boost or cut your low bass and just listen by ear. What do you get? Well even tighter bass, but more importantly bass reproduction also influences your perception of high frequencies (Mary Queen of Scots confrontation between the Queens with the wind, Bram Stoker's Dracula chimes in many of the early scenes.) Getting your bass just as clean and flat as possible should allow the rest of your spectrum and Atmos just sound all the better with perfect ambience. Even if you have an awesome microphone still worth the effort as 0.1 db changes quite audible. Go ahead and put in larger settings at first just so you can see graphically what is going on and then adjust by ear.
Kudos on your first effort with your JTR friend (loved those videos) and just draw dropping bass you have below 20 hz. The world is jealous!
Thanks, I have sooooo much to learn but always strive to grow in my knowledge by learning from people who know more than I do. Thx for the tips.
good update.ill take a look at my 2 subs and rew today. cheers
Good Afternoon Youthman, do you yourself offer a service to calibrate home theaters with R.E.W or do you know anyone in Florida who offers this service? I live in Port St Lucie and I’m having my home theater installed by a company, however 1)I don’t believe they use R.E.W for room calibration and 2)their labor rate is really expensive. I am using a trinnov altitude 16 for processing but I’ve seen that I’d still need to use R.E.W before the trinnov can do its thing.
Thanks for the video lots of good info!!
Glad it was helpful!
I tried this and got my house curve near to perfect. However after running Audyssey, I measured frequency sweep again and it did not look good. Should I care about the frequency sweep curve after running Audyssey?
How do you deal with all the power that your AVR, amps, and those super powerful subs draw? I'm guessing you have a 20amp circuit but even then I would guess you could be maxing it out. Have you ever tripped anything when running the system really cranked. Anything else you did to make sure you have enough power?
I actually made a video on it - ruclips.net/video/4Emq8cTYQ3Q/видео.html
@@Youthman Awesome, I will check it out. Thanks!!!
Much love from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺 your awesome Michael!
Thanks! Much love from the US
You have to get the Monolith 215 back in your room now that you have the mini DSP...we NEED to Know what that does dialed in...Also, I saw 1917 loved the movie, and I know the scene...CRAZY!!!
Unfortunately it has been returned and will not be coming back. Onto the next review
After flattening the peaks, did you have a problem with running out of gain? I have resisted using REW and the Mini DSP solely because of the lack of info on how to use it. Maybe I will try it now.
No lack of gain on my subs. We were running 1/2 gain on the amps so there's still plenty if needed but I have not felt the need to increase it at all. PLENTY of output from the JTR RS2's.
Great ! You are now the direct reason why I have ordered one 👍😎. Wonder what max boost you dare to use - do not want to destroy anything here. I really like your videos.
Thank you kindly
I’ve been considering trying to learn REW. I’ll have to look into it. I was actually looking at the MiniDSP this week for the high pass filter. Is this something that a novice can learn or do I need an expert to set it up for me?
Thanks for this one Youthman👍🏻
My pleasure!
i'm pretty new to all this also, So did you add acoustic matting to get your curve balanced out? or is it all EQ levelling?
Ahhhh amazon sold out of minidsp , time to shop around. And great video as always !
Tends to happen when I recommend a product. LOL They sell them directly on the miniDSP website too.
Youthman yeah going to order from them direct lol, can’t wait to set mine up!
Parts-express has it in stock. You can even get 7% discount for first time subscriber. And it includes the code for plugin. The cost would be less than what you would spend on its website (~$225). Also the free shipping option on PE stats 5-10 days but it was delivered to my home in VA in two days. So check out parts express.
Had your minidsp been reliable?. Was wondering how they last in the long term.
100% reliable so far
@@Youthman thank you youthman
Youthman,
I don't have near the setup as you do.
Do you think it would be worth the investment for the MiniDSP 2X4HD and UMIK-1 for my system?
Would I hear the difference?
I'm always striving to get the best out of my room but it comes to a point where I just want to enjoy it, and not chase it.
Klipsch
2-RP-8000F
1-RP-504C
4-RP-502S
2-SPL-150
4-Pro-180RPC
Denon AVR-X6500H
It made a big difference in my setup. It honestly depends on the acoustics of your room.
Great video. I’m in process of getting a calibrated mic and REW now. I’m definitely curious as I also hear bass drops I’m certain movies as well. Awesome!!
Outstanding
Exact same place as you.
Thank you
12:45. . . Bass-ically
It’s preferred to have a rising curve as you get lower into the lower octaves because you 100 dB at 80 hz is much louder than 100db at 30hz /20hz etc. it has to do with how we hear sound at a given frequency.
As with most elements with this hobby, much is personal preference. I'm not sure what I prefer, I just know I love what I'm hearing now. :)
Youthman what I’m saying is an 50hz tone and 20 hz tone will appear to be equal in loudness but that requires the 20HZ tone to be 10db louder than the higher frequency tone.
Google search "fletcher munson curve". Also lots of research, some by Sean Olive at Harman, suggesting a downward sloping curve as you go up in frequency is preferable in blinded listening studies
This is factually true, but it is also true for the person that does the mix, right? Why would they leave the low end lacking?? They could be concerned with the low end capabilities of end user equipment, distortion, driver over excursion... but our sensitivity to frequencies is factored in to their mix. They listen with human ears, their ears
Very nice response, try multi sub optimizer
Thank you that was enlightening.
I have one of these, I am about where you were on the graph before your friend did the remote in and made it better, is he for hire on something like that? I would love to get mine more dialed in and am at my limitations, thanks!
So Michael, you are saying this mini DSP actually IMPROVES the frequency response above and beyond what Audyssey MultEQ xt32 that I already have in my $4500 Marantz preamp does? I have the Audyssey iPhone app and after the room was corrected I couldn’t believe how flat the curves now were, especially the subs. And the Audyssey app lets you go into editor and “spot correct” if you wish. Do you think this mini DSP is kind of redundant? I have two subs (2 sub outputs on the Marantz). Not sure if they are time aligned, but the sit in the front of the room, same distance from the seating. What do you think?
Michael, ty for an excellent video yet again. Once you have everything dialed in, do you remove the minidsp? I notice it doesn't have balanced connectors. My subs connect to my AVR with XLR.
Thank you kindly. No once you have everything dialed into the Mini DSP, that stays in between your AVR and your subwoofers. Up until a few weeks ago, the Mini DSP did not offer XLR outputs so currently in my system I use RCA cables. But miniDSP just announced a miniDSP FLEX that does support XLR! Pretty exciting
Would this be a good buy for a simple music hook up...with a intergrated amp, power amp 2 loud speakers(klipsh rp600m) and one(possibly add 2 in the future) sub?
It's interesting the horrific sub response you were having (displayed in the both subs simultaneously graphic around the 10 minute mark)...yet prior to seeing/knowing this you felt the JTR's superior to the SVS's and upgraded to them.
The point here, I believe, is how many other home theater enthusiasts believe their system audio performance is spectacular yet most likely are experiencing similar results as you were. 😳
????
Since you are normally a -10 dB Movie watcher (and I therefore suspect a -10 dB to -15 dB Music listener), his gradually increasing Subwoofer response curve is exactly what you need / want. Also placement, Placement, PLACEMEMNT. Just dropping Dual Subwoofers upfront behind the Screen like you have them is so typical, but often not the Best placement to have. If one would first use REW and work on Dual Subwoofer placement and then ask MiniDSP (or DIRAC / Audyssey) to then improve things further..., the Results will usually be phenomenal. For years and years and years the only tool I had at my dismay was "Placement" (and Volume and Phase of course), followed by the small improvements brought upon early versions of Audyssey. Now these EQ'ng Softwares are quite good (let's not forget ARC and others), however PLACEMENT still Rules! Spend your time with PLACEMENT first and THEN these EQ'ng software packages will bring your End Game to a level that you likely never before had. So if I didn't make myself clear ;) - Subwoofer(s) PLACEMENT is key!!!
Placement is crucial, however those are the only available location in my room. Sometimes you have to work with what you have
@@Youthman Agree, I too have some Rooms in my house where placement is dictated :( :( :( Then again, and just as shown here, forced placement using dual Subs + REW + MiniDSP can often achieve DANG good results! So hopefully this video will inspire others to make the LEAP into REW & MiniDSP. Heck it inspired me and I was already there :)
Just starting to play with REW and the 2x4HD and I'm about 12 minutes into the video and have a quick question; are you running each of your subs off a single output from the AVR or running each separately? I'm going to jump into the AVS thread after I get things evened out with the two PSA V3611s as I'll need help integrating the dual 21" Devastator LFEs.
Single output from the AVR. You want the miniDSP to control everything so you only need one signal in since there is only one LFE channel
@@Youthman Thank you!
Once again Nice Video👍 I liked that part at 22:23 to 22: 26😀
Yes Mr.Steven Smith (Home Theater gurus) have done a great detailed video about it..
Thanks for the great video. One question is your subs at equal distance from your seating.?If they are I don`t understand why you would need time aligment ..
Youthman, good morning. Im in the process of saving up for the JTR’s for my front stage. One question, i have 6 subs, what equipment will i need when purchasing a mini dsp? I wanna make sure i have everything for the dsp to analyze my systems. Im currently running a 7.6.2 system as of now. Thank you
Great video! This might be a stupid question but are you forced to use the mini DSP for setting crossovers or can you still use your AVR or other preamp? I ask because I have the parasound integrated and I use in home theater bypass so I use separate crossovers for two channel then movies. If this forces the crossover then I wonder if I can just run the mini DSP in between my AVR and the parasound (to only process what's coming from the avr) instead of from the parasound to the Sub...