"Moria... You fear to go into those mines. The dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum... Shadow and flame." I always get chills when Saruman says that line.
Its those exact lines that make me believe Sauron had to know about it. If Saruman knew then he would have notified Sauron if Sauron didn't already know
@@Kellenmcconnell1417 well I don't have a credible source cause I can't remember where I heard it but I heard Balrogs were loyal to Morgoth and Morgoth alone as he was their creator so if that's true then Sauron could either kill it or leave it be and it seems he chose to leave it be
I don't believe that line is in the book though, it was only in the film. Based on the books (or at least what I felt after reading it) most people seem to be aware that something powerful had awoken in Moria and drove out the Dwarfs but no one was really sure exactly what it was. It was only when the fellowship directly encountered it when they passed through Moria that Gandalf recognised it as a Balrog. But it is implied that the Orc's living there were connected to Sauron as their ranks apparently included several "Black Uruk's of Mordor" which had only appeared recently and where known to only serve him directly, so the theory that he knew of the Balrog via the Orcs living in Moria does hold up.
What a coincidence, I had just this phrase in my thoughts as well. Memories from my childhood, things I don't forget because of the beautiful, mystical sound of the words. But also it leads me to believe that the Balrog was not there on purpose .. it was a horror discovered in the depths .. a horrible coincidence .. I always imagined as a child .. the labour of the stone in so horribly scary depths .. flat stone is in front of them, as the dwarfs are so far down: they stand in front of cliffs and they are at the deepest point. They have tools, they work the stone, everybody else would be scared to death, but they are careless, everybody else is scared of just watching where they are. The fear has always been there, the darkness has always been scary and anybody but the dwarfs would look over their shoulder , scared of noises, of who might be there. And then the wall crumbles, and it becomes real: The Balrog.
This Balrog was kind of passive in his actions. He secured the Moria and kept to himself for a loooong time. He never revealed himself. He never raided Lothlorien which was under his nose. When dwarfs attacked the Moria he watched but didnt interfere. He didnt even command the orc army, he just waited to see if dwarfs will try to reclaim the mine. When dwarfs had created a colony in Moria, he didnt attack nor reveal himself. For thousands of years he was content with keeping low profile. Maybe he was sort of traumatized by stomping that Valar delivered unto the dark armies. Maybe he was passive without Morgoth to direct him. He acted only once fellowship of the ring came to him. He might have sensed a power of the ring...or Gandalf? Servant of Valar in his home? Is he there for him? Will he inform the Valar that one of the Balrog was located? Anyhow, I dont think that Sauron controlled him. He would probably be able to persuade him and coerce him into compliance but not to command him.
I think that sauron can't control the Ballrog. He probably know him from some orcs or his eye see him, but I think without the ring he has no physical firm so he can't go to Moria and recute the Ballrog. I also think that he shall do that on his own because if you were a high demon would you accept instructions of a orc, which was maybe send by the dark lord. I don't think so.
I'm pretty sure he was slumbering rather than observin what was going on until he was awoken, also I thought he got trapped under there after Eru did the whole reformation of arda?
@@SuperNils666 I am not sure what you are referring to. It is said by one of the dwarfs that after victory over orcs at the gates of Moria victorious army refrained from entering the mines because they could tell that something was lurking in the darkness just beyond the gates waiting for them.
@@drarsen33 Yeah Dain the dwarf actually saw the Balrog within the threshold of Moria and convinced the rest of the dwarf army that Durin's Bane was still present and they couldn't defeat it. That's why they didn't retake it during the War of Dwarves and Orcs.
@@ravenlord4256 Sauron did have a wraith/spirit form, the Balrog likely would've been able to see it and communicate with it. Sauron could've easily sent a Nazgul to Moria as well. In the books Sauron did have a physical form by the end of the Third Age.
Sauron might have been Morgoth's chief lieutenant in the First Age, but by the Third Age he had been diminished by the Downfall of Numenor, his defeat at the Black Gates, and the loss of the one ring. He may not have been confident in his ability to compel a strong entity like a Balrog or Fire Drake to serve him.
But still, Sauron is still more powerful than Durin's Bane. Back in Battle of Dagorlad, Sauron fought thousands of troops consisting of Elves, Dunedains, and Dwarves. Most notable feat is that he defeated Gil Galard and Elendil. These two are very powerful warriors who can fight equally with Maiars. It's like he defeated at least 3~4 Balrogs by himself. But still, Durin's Bane is still not a foe Sauron can underestimate. But since, they once served same master and Sauron was higher, I'd say there is a chance Balrog of Moria might join forces with Sauron. Maybe if Smaug was alive, Sauron could've used him as mercenary too. Smaug loves treasures and Sauron, while he likes to rule, he doesn't show a lot of interest of it, so he could've make Smaug work for him by taking all to treasures from kingdoms of men that he will attack in return, Smaug fights for him.
Sauron's true strength lies in his cunning intellect and his creative prowess. Before he was corrupted by Melkor, Sauron (aka Mairon) was known for his love for order and his obsession with creation, only matched by his former master Aulë. When he was serving Morgoth, he became his greatest servant not because of his brute strength or combat skills but because of his excellent strategy and creative plans which consolidated Morgoth's dominance. Balrogs on the other hand were Maiars corrupted long before Sauron. In fact, Balrogs went with Morgoth as early as the music of Ainur. This ensured a greater loyalty and bond with their master.This became evident when Balrogs rescued their master from Ungoliant. Balrogs also had their own chief, Gothmog. However, powerful Sauron was during the first age, Balrog acted only by the order of Morgoth and for Morgoth and no one else. There's no way Sauron could command Balrogs without the mediator, Morgoth, and wisely enough Sauron never did.
@@garammaru3272he planned on using Smaug. Because Gandalf knew Sauron was gaining power he didn’t want him to partner with Smaug and used dwarves and Bilbo as a means to prevent that
The theory about Sauron knowing about the Balrog, but both of them allowing the other to exist independently, is great as well. In my head I imagine Sauron and the Balrog talking and agreeing to continue the works of Morgoth independent of each other, yet still working towards the same goal. Love hearing people talk about Tolkien
Prestige Worldwidewidewide; this is also my view that Sauron wanted the Balrog to stay put as an independent being. - The Balrog was the anchor for the center of Sauron’s western line/boundary. The Dwarves could not establish their great kingdom in Moria. And Elrond or Galadriel could not move large forces far to the east with the Balrog at their back. - And if any powerful being was foolish enough to go into Moria, the Balrog would kill them. After all, Gandalf was killed by the Balrog (which also died but the death of Gandalf would be worth it to Sauron). - Also, keeping the Balrog in Moria, without consulting with it, meant it would not challenge the authority of Sauron. - The only weakness of Sauron’s plan for the Balrog was that he gambled that the Valar would not intervene in the struggle for Middle-earth (such as the Valar resurrecting/creating a more powerful version of Gandalf, called the White.) Morgoth made a similar losing gamble when he was on the threshold of conquering Middle-earth during the First Age.
Im guessing Sauron was more interested in conquering the surface world, leaving the underworld to the Balrog and other deep dwelling orcs. That way Sauron didnt need to be concerned with Dwarves meddling his plans.
I think the Balrog would have tried to get control of the ring for itself as it could have been just as powerful as Sauron was. And being that the Balrogs may have owned their allegiance with Morgoth it might have seen Sauron as just a usurper.
hmm Sauron never really tried to usurp Morgoth though, and he was technically still working in his name albeit with a slightly different end goal. It's cool to wonder whether the Balrog would have used the One Ring, and how powerful it might have become!
@@GeekZoneMT Yes but being that Sauron and the Balrog are both evil, both worked for Morgoth, its natural that they might come to conflict trying to be the one that tries to bring Morgoth back from the Abyss. The Balrog may see that IT is the only one worthy to be the one to do that. Evil always turns on itself in time.
Plausible, but I don't think so. First, I dont think the balrog would have even had knowledge of the ring as he has been hiding underground, presumably since the end of the War of Wrath. And I think Sauron would have been too cunning to mention it or let it fall into the balrog's possession. I think the only balrog that could have rivaled Sauron's power with the ring would be Gothmog, and he was killed by Ecthelion, an elf, in the battle of Gondolin. The ones who could have rivaled Sauron in power that were still alive are Gandalf and Saruman. Would be cool to see a ring empowered balrog whoop on Sauron and the free peoples though.
@@Omni1Illu I would think that the Balrog might have sensed the Ring in the fellowships possession and might be why it pursued them. A powerful being like the Balrog would have had extremely fine senses to sense something as powerful and evil as The Ring. But that's just my opinion and we may never truly know.
I feel like Sauron was depending on the world of men to stay divided. If he had used big scary monsters like balrog and Smaug, men would agree they needed to unite. I think he used evil men and orks hoping that each kingdom wouldn't feel quite as threatened, instead choosing to shelter in place, as we saw, until the end of the story. Aragorn and Gandolf had a difficult time convincing the various kingdoms of men and elves to unite, even having to rely upon ghosts for help. Even then a direct assault would have failed. Success was always dependent upon Frodo and Sam succeeding in their mission to destroy the ring
@@AC_Bikes_400 this world is assimilating new darkness. New energy. If you want to see the dark prophet of our time: go to him. Love him. His channel name is "share his vision". Go listen to his wisdom. Sub to him. He teaches and displays many glorious and terrifying powers. And his forehead and feet are blessed with the blood of baby jesus. Go to him. His writing will destroy heaven forever. Amen ruclips.net/video/n7rjEEk7q9M/видео.html
I'd rather think that using balrog openly would trigger the response of even mightier powers. The reason why Sauron had such a free rein in middle earth was because he was a weakened version of what he once was. Seems like all higher powers were very confident that he was not a serious threat that forces present in the area could not handle - see the final battle at Black Gate, where he moved all he could to have superior numbers. Neither balrog of Moria or Smaug had anything to gain from aligning with a waning power, but if they did, this could trigger an overwhelming response that would crush them. I think Sauron was a lost cause and balrog knew it. Only when Gandalf and the ring of powered were in the zone he got triggered by this opportunity - think about it, a balrog could actually use the ring of power! :) And kicking Olórin's ass in the process of obtaining it would be such a good feeling :)
Valid points. I would just like to add that Tolkien wrote Sam was the most important character cause he held the ring twice and never was taken by it's power when everyone prior was taken by it power in some way or another. Sam would of destroyed the Ring no problem Gandalf knew that's when they all met up when Gandalf met and they told him Frodo was with Sam that great big grin he gets oh man love that part.
It was hiding after the war of wrath.. I think as a lieutenant of morgoth he could have commanded the Balrog. Since his servents knew it was hiding in moria, he would have brought him out near the end of the war. But Gandalf ended that plan (Gandalf did well to take pieces off the board, Balrog, smaug and saruman)
@@stefanorsan7518 i know Gandalf was concerned. But i dont think Smaug would have joined Sauron, he was too proud. Sauron would send Ringwraith emisaries. Smaug would say no and retort that Sauron can have his world but he himself would own the mountain. Sauron could have dragged him out in defeat but it wouldnt be worth the effort and theyd likely settle into a similar situation lake that of Sauron and Shelob.
I like your first theory, and what you said about the Balrog’s intelligence. I feel as thought the ego or pride of a Balrog could keep it from serving Sauron, as they could see themselves as equals or even greater than him.
@@GeekZoneMT I can definitely see that occurring as well! I love thinking about the war of the ring from all perspectives like this, and I hope the amazon prime show can flesh out Sauron or give us more scenes with him. There’s certainly a lot of stuff they can pull from! Cheers brotha
@@Chelooby The Balrog was not equal to Sauron! Sauron is the strongest Maiar. Sauron is one of the higher rank Maiar and the Balrog is lower rank (like Gandalf and other Istaris). Balrog and Sauron knows each other from the Morgoths era. Its possible for Sauron to being the commander of the Balrogs after death of Gothmog. Cause Sauron was Morgoths mightiest and deadliest servant and second in command after Morgoths himself. In my opinion, The Balrog would serve and help Sauron
@@_semih_ it is a vaild theory however not 100% convincing as we actually know very little about Forces of Darkness in terms of power structure. 1. We know nothnig about logic behind chain of command- it was never stated if Sauron's position of captain of Morgoth came from his personal authority or it was just extension of Morgoth's. In other words we dont know if during 1st age fallen Maiars followed Sauron's orders only because Morgoth told them to do so. 2. There is no record of any law of succesion on Dark Lord's position. We do not know if after Morgoth's fall his authority over all evil simply passed to Sauron as his 2nd in command or Sauron was just self-proclaimed evil overlord. Without asnwer to those question we can only assume and make theories. But I rather tend to a "no" as there are no records of relic powerful evil spirits flocking under Mordor banner in 2nd and 3rd Age. Even in case of Smaug fans makes theories of alliance between dragon and Sauron and you do not make alliances with servants.
I love how you can take a single character/item in Tolkien’s works, and there’s either a deep history of that, or a certain mystique in the unknown origin.
@@GeekZoneMT couldn’t say it better myself. He lived through so much in the real world and then crafted one with beauty and terror that somehow or someway (to me), mirrors our own. Tolkien’s works are my favorite stories without a doubt, and I love that other people share that feeling!
Like with Smaug, Sauron could probably get him to do what he wanted, but would choose a more circumspect approach than simply giving orders as with orcs and trolls.
Sauron was 2nd only to morgoth, so the dragons, balrogs ect.. They all knew who he was. If sauron had made direct contact with smuag or a balrog, then I think they would have reached an agreement, somthing like well we could take middle earth together for morgoths return. If it was a dragon like smuag, sauron could simply offer it all the dwarven kingdoms. If it was a balrog, an eleven ring once they were recovered plus anywhere it choose as its realm. But what the video says is mostly correct although the balrogs were more than capable of wiping out entire armies the elves feared them greatly, they are maiar as is stated. A maiar has the power to obliterate entire swathes of land. I think the only beings capable of destroying the balrog during the war of the ring in the third age were gandalf, galadriel using her ring, sauruman and Tom bombadil. Elrond perhaps but I have my doubts to that I think at the very most he would die aswell. But one thing that needs to be considered is not all balrogs are the same power. They are all maiar yes but each maiar spirit has its own "powers" so the one gandalf fought could have perhaps only been like middle teir strength wise.
@@theunknownanomaly1950 ahhh yes glorfindel could take a balrog, can't believe I missed him haha. (As it is implied that glorfindel in the Lord of the rings is the same glorfindel from the silmarillion, so he already has killed one at the sacking of Gondolin, although again he died in the process.) i realised not long ago that literally every balrog we hear of fighting one on one has resulted in a double death.
@@stuartmclean1521 Yeah, and Glorfindel was weaker before when he killed the Balrog at Gondolin. After he was revived and granted a power boost, he was strong enough that even the maiar counted him as an equal(unsure if he was as strong as the strongest maiar or not, but it is confirmed he was now maiar-level) and was even capable of putting fear into the Nazgul just by being there.
Comparing the Balrog's role with Shelob's wraps up the video quite nicely. I always thought that Sauron was secretly delighted with the Balrog guarding Moria for him. And for free, too!
The question is, could Durin's Bane being a Maiar like Sauron posses the ability to wield the one ring, effectively adding Sauron's dark power to his own... 🤔
Id guess the balrog would be even more powerful than peak Sauron, as Sauron put so much of his power in the ring that once it was destroyed he was essentially powerless. Id assume that a Balrog would be able to access enough of Sauron’s power that, since w/o it a Balrog is still immensely powerful, that added to Sauron’s stolen power it would be even worse.
Night's King well the evidence is that w/o the ring (existing) he’s essentially powerless , so if a balrog essentially assumed sauron’s expended power I’d argue that another miar would be able to incorporate enough of sauron’s inate power that it’d be superior. Even if the power conversion wasnt 100% it’d likely be enough to surpass Sauron.
It’s possible that the balrog’s fingers may have been way too thick to be able to wear the one ring - thus unable to assume additional power that the ring possessed.
I question whether Sauron is fully aware of the Balrog's existence. In the books the Balrog's existence is steeped in mystery. Even Gandalf seems surprised by its pressence at the Bridge of Khazard Dum, having been unable to previously recognize the mysterious force who countered his spell upon the doors of the Chamber of Mazarbul. Indeed, even before its discovery, the mair lurked in the deepest tunnels of the Misty Mountains, home to 'Nameless Things' of which Sauron is unaware of. The Dwarves who survived Khazad Dum's downfall are seemingly unaware of its true nature, referring to it as 'Durin's Bane'. While the Dwarves have seen battle against Dragons in the First Age, there is little evidence in the Simarilian to suggest that the Dwarves, or at least those in Khazad Dum, would have had any encounters with these foes'. Regardless, given the secretive nature of the Dwarves, it is doubtful that Sauron agents would have learned about the Balrog's existence from Durin's Folk. Then there are the orcs and goblins of the Misty Mountains. From my understanding these tribes mostly consist of survivors from Angband who are only loosely affiliated with Mordor. While these tribes are certainly aware of the Balrog's existence, knowing enough to fear its pressence, would they be aware of its true power? The orcs would not have fought alongside balrogs for Thousand of Years and, given what we have seen in the book, do not seem like the type to keep written records of these events. If Sauron's agents did have sufficient contact with the Orcs of Moria, would they have been able to convey the Balrog's existence, or would they just describe a nameless terror stalking through the shadows? Now assuming Sauron was able to piece together the mystery of Durin's Bane, it is doubtful that he would be able to control the Balrog, at least not without the One Ring in his possession. Both are creatures of the same order, Maiar, with Balrogs being referred to as 'Demon's of Might'. In the Simarilian they are Morgoth's chief servants, capable of driving back the likes of Ungoliant with their fury. If made aware of its existence, Sauron would likely see the Balrog as a dangerous wild card in his campaign to control Middle Earth or pehaps even a potential rival. Unlike Saruman, who shared a prior allegiance to Aule, the Balrog would probably not be easily swayed into service. Instead, I argue that Sauron would seek to leave the creature to its own devices, given its contentment to remain within the darkness of Moria. Whether it fears the wrath of the Valar or simply prefers to rule Moria through fear, Durin's Bane seems uninterested in either aiding or impeding Sauron's conquest of Middle Earth.
It's an interesting thought. I don't think you're right with the connection about "Nameless things which Sauron is unaware of"... the Balrog isn't a nameless thing. But the rest... In the books, it is Gandalf who talks about the dwarves of Moria delving to greedily and too deep, disturbing that from which they fled, Durin's bane. Did Gandalf, of all people, not put a name to that menace. Did Aragorn not know, when he feared for Gandalf? It's true that Legolas didn't make the connection ahead of time. When Gandalf was relating the fight at the door, do you think the Balrog was on the other side? It was the same foe as at the bridge? If so, it's true, Gandalf said, "What it was I cannot guess". But when the door burst into pieces, "something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside". Does that sound like a Balrog? Why was he so close, but took so long to come back? Later on, seeing the red glow, Gandalf says, "There is some new devilry here"... implying it wasn't the same thing as at the door. But then... and this I guess wins you the main argument: "A Balrog", muttered Gandalf, "Now I understand." About control, then... Well, if I understood Carl's argument, it wasn't that the Balrog was under his control, but that he was a natural ally and would have wanted to serve Sauron. On a different matter, in those thousands of years before the dwarves disturbed it... what was it doing? Sleeping? Playing poker with its mates? It doesn't seem it was active in Moria, ruling through fear. Was it ruling in any sense, if nobody knew it was there? Anyway, I enjoyed your stimulating thoughts.
While i dont believe the balrog was directly under Saurons command, he soon would have been had Sauron recovered the Ring. As it was he was likely already being influenced by Sauron from afar, whethor the Balrog knew this or not. Either the Ring called out to him in Moria and thats why he appeared or else orcs reported their presence. But it seems unlikely that the Balrog would rouse himself to go after 9 individuals when an army of orcs were on them. He either sensed the Ring or Gandalf or both. Thats why he didnt leave it to the little guys.
Yeah I think it's quite plausible that the Balrog could sense the One Ring. After all it's implied that the Watcher in the Water was able to, and I I imagine that the Balrog was more sensitive to its presence.
@@GeekZoneMT Yes, it's very likely the Balrog could sense the One ring. When I think of it, crossing Balrog's territory with the One Ring was a very stupid idea x) And that might be the real reason why Gandalf was so reluctant to do so. IMO, there is no way Sauron could control the Balrog without his One ring. And if the possibility araised, the Balrog (like Saruman) would have claimed the One ring for himself.
Sauron didn't enlist the balrog (Durin's Bane) before the Third Age because it was hiding and possibly sealed deep, deep in Moria. During the Third Age, it was the dwarves that were master miners that could dig so deep to awake and accidently release the balrog. Sauron was too weak without the One Ring to subdue a balrog to his will. More importantly, strategically for Sauron, Durin's Bane was doing a great job just denying Moria from the Western allies. Whether it was due to Sauron's design or not.
The Balrogs were very high up in the hierarchy that Melkor had. They also seemed more loyal than Sauron who did desert Melkor in the First Age. It seems ridiculous that the Balrog found its way to where it was by chance. It could be that before his fall Melkor ordered it to go into hiding at this exact location. It could be that while the Balrog would've considered Sauron to be an ally it would never follow his orders whether he possessed the ring or not. Whatever orders Melkor gave it would take precedence. It seems fairly clear from the books that orcs entered Moria from the east at around the same time that the Fellowship was entering Mordor. Message were likely sent from Sauron to the Balrog at this time. Gandalf had travelled through Moria before without rousing the Balrog. We can see with Grisnakh that some of the orc captains had knowledge of the ring. So this seems to prove that Balrog was acting on information that a party would be near Moria and that it would be carrying the ring that Sauron needed to win the war. I don't believe that the Balrog would claim the ring for itself. It would see the ring as being part of Sauron's plan to fufill whatever mission Melkor had left to him. The one thing that seems to be a fair point is that Sauron did abandon Melkor in the First age, quite some time before he fell. We are also told he genuinely offered to leva Middle Earth at the end of the first age if he received a pardon. It's not clear what the Balrog would've known about this. By the time the Balrog was freed/revealed in the Third age all it would've seen is that Sauron was still a servant of Melkor and working to overthrow his enemies.
@@mikedeck8381 suaron could indeed control the balrog if he chose to. He was Morgoth's second in command and controlled all beings below him. Furthermore Sauron likely didnt betray Morgoth, he was likely sent into hiding by Morgoth whereareas its more likely the balrog was working on his own machinations after fleeing. Without the Ring Sauron could command the balrog, with the Ring on Sauron's hand the balrog's disobedience seems yet more laughable.
I have always wondered what the Balrig would have done if he had obtained the one ring. There are lots of possibilities there. The board game War of the Ring can include the balrog with the Lords of Middle Earth expansion. Definitely makes for some interesting scenarios.
I wish the Tolkein franchise produced films from the start to the finish (Lord of the Rings). I feel we missed out on so much more mystery, adventure and all round awe. Someone needs to do this.
I love these videos and how you obviously think these things through. This one, in particular, was really interesting. I agree that Sauron wanted Durin’s Bane to stay riiiiight where he was. It was convenient for him, just like Shelob, and the North was more of a pressing concern for him than the South.
'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.' Gandalf is establishing that the true conflict is between Melkor and Eru. Flame of Udon being a reference to Melkor’s fortress Utumno and the Secret Fire a reference to Eru’s ability to create life. Melkor is presumably the Shadow suggesting Sauron isnt pulling their strings. I agree with other posters who opine the Balrog would only take commands from Melkor himself despite Sauron’s position. Maybe The balrogs are like the german SS or the roman legionnaires fanatically sworn to protect only one leader. Just my 2 cents.
I've been thinking that while many orcs, trolls, evil men and many other dark creatures acknowledged Sauron as their new Dark Lord, Balrogs' loyalty belonged only to Morgoth himself and no one else, not even to Sauron. Shadow of War game already proved that the Balrogs would answer to no one, save for Morgoth who wasn't even around anymore.
I agree that the Balrogs and dragons will only answer to Morgoth. The prophecy that Morgoth will break his restraints and return from the void for one last battle in the end times. Most likely any remaining Balrogs will appear as they did in Morgoth battle against Ungoliant.
Sauron was Morgoth's second-in-command, his foremost captain. The Balrog had almost certainly served under Sauron at some point. Rank-wise, they were not equals, for even Gothmog, the greatest of the Balrogs, was not Sauron's equal in the command structure.
@@revanofkorriban1505 well technically they were both lieutenants and had the same rank although sauron was generally left in charge but that might have been more for his cunning and intelligence and not necessarily that he was stronger
@@tommark3015 My whole point is that Sauron outranked the Balrog, and that by precedent, Balrogs were willing to serve masters who were weaker than them if it served the cause. Think, for example, of when Melkor was about to be eaten by Ungoliant, and they rescued him.
Well presented. If the question is “If Sauron knew of the balrog, why didn’t he make use of it”, it is possible (as mentioned) that he DID use it, and keeping Moria out of the hands of his enemies was that very use. Given the balrogs low-profile residence in Moria, that may not have been of concern to Sauron as long as the job was getting done. Sauron had many faults, but he never struck me as a micro-manager who told his senior staff how to do their jobs. He assigned tasks and assumed they would be carried out to best of his servants abilities. Also, given that he had the Nazgul for the Minas Tirith campaign, the balrog was better used at Moria, and as a backup or replacement for Saruman given his questionable allegiance.
Sorry, Sauron did control neither the Balrog of Moria nor Shelob. Both were beyond his control. He did not even control the evil spiders of Mirkwood! Or most of the other creatures (like dragons) which somehow survived the War of Wrath. He did not even control most of the orc tribes outside of Mordor. There has not even been a single attack of the orcs of Moria on Lothlorien, they all came from Dol Guldur. After the Witch-king left Eriador in 1975 TA, Sauron had no forces in the north. Gandalf feared that Sauron could somehow get Smaug as an ally and thus orchestrated Smaug's demise in the same year the White Council (which most likely included armed forces from Lothlorien) drove the Necromancer from Dol Guldur. BTW I am sure that the balrog of Moria is not the only Balrog who somehow survived...
I think Sauron may have not trusted the Balrog. Although he had once been Morgoth's second in command, he wasn't as powerful as he once was, and it's entirely possible that something as powerful as a Balrog could turn his allies against him. The orcs of the Misty Mountains were terrified of it and might have served it out of fear if it came to a war between it and Sauron. It's also possible that the Balrog had no interest in going to war or killing, which is why it had been so passive since awaking from its slumber. It had it's own little kingdom to rule, no master to serve, and perhaps after losing the war and his master realized that resisting the Valar was futile. I also think it's possible that Sauron feared that the Balrog might try to claim The One Ring for itself, which is what it may have tried to do in "Fellowship of the Ring". I just can't imagine the Balrog willingly serving Sauron.
If the balrog had been discovered for what it was prior to the fellowship, I wonder if perhaps the white council or maybe even Glorfindel may have attempted to slay the creature.
They chose to betray their fellow Ainur, and Iluvatar their creator to follow Morgoth, so I think at that point their fates were tied with his, and their goals aligned
They seemed pretty loyal when they rushed to save Melkor from Ungoliant. They easily could have betrayed Melkor and taken a silmaril or two for themselves and made themselves some minor lords, but they didn’t.
Considering the power of the Balrog, sauron could have conquered the realms of men with ease, imagine the battle for helms deep at the start it just destroys the wall with its massive sword. I always imagined that sauron would have been afraid of allying with a Balrog because of their immense power as maiar spirits like sauron, but they had their full power, whereas sauron had split his power into the one ring. So my theory is sauron would wait until he had the ring before allying with a fellow maiar spirit that could potentially oust him from power as he was so weak when the Balrog became known to him. Great video btw, I like your voice its kind of soothing.
That Balrog lived through the battle in which the Valar crushed a Melkor at the height of his military might. It is clear to me that this balrog was hiding and trying to go unnoticed. Not because he feared death as we do, but because a Balrog is a Maia chained to his body and unable to create a new one. The destruction of his body would have caused him to have to be a formless spirit and almost certainly have to have faced the judgment of the Valar, which were STILL out there. Join Sauron? Sauron probably struck him as suicidal. And even if it were not like that, I doubt very much that a Balrog (who I suppose would be proud beings) would bow down to a Sauron who is not in a higher hierarchy than his.
I think he couldn't control it yet. He was still trying to regain his strength during the war of the ring becasue he still didn't have the one ring and was thus not at full power nor had a body. Had he had gotten the One ring and regained his body, there's no doubt he would have been able to summon and control the Balrog.
I do need to point this out; according to Shadow of War (i dont know if its cannon or not) Sauron did know the location of at least one balrog, given the quests to fight it.
I remember reading somewhere that Sauron tried to recruit the Balrog but he couldn't control it at all because it was created by Morgoth, a much more powerful being than Sauron.
I’m imagining a very funny scene in my head where a goblin nonchalantly mentions that he came across a balrog in Moria and the Necromancer pees himself out of excitement and fear.
Putting the Balrog as a last Ditch Defense into Mount Doom itself would have very well prevented Frodo and Sam form destroying the Ring, as he would have stopped them without a Doubt. So I dare say that the Balrog would have made a huge Difference if he were utilized in the same Way as Shelob. The Orcs would have kept Moria under Controll anways, Balins efforts were floolish at best. I never understood why Mount Doom, the only Place the Ring could still be destroyed was not guarded at all. At least by a Nazgûl or tow.
The benefits of leaving it in Moria feel more like bonuses to me. Sauron poured a massive amount of his power into the One Ring. This likely means that if Durin's Bane cared to, it could overpower Sauron, seizing his place as the Dark Lord of Middle Earth. Sauron would not have been willing to take that risk. However, had he regained the One Ring, I believe he would have welcomed Durin's Bane into his forces.
I've only ever seen the movies, but I always saw the Balrog as a captain holding a stronghold. In my view, it was necessary to defend the passage from the "nameless things".
I think there are several possible reasons. 1) Plot device. Using either the Balrog or Smaug in direct conflict with the West would made the current story a pushover for his forces. Tolkien would have had to come up a balancing power to keep it interesting. 2) Sauron did not have direct power over these beings. Orcs and humans were subject to the power of the One Ring and to his manipulation (as shown in his form before its destruction). So he could not direct them as Morgoth could not control Ungoliant, but could only enter into a pact with her. So instead Sauron used "soft power" such as combined ends with them to leverage their power. Shelob blocked the path into Mordor, Smaug took power away from the North East and the Balrog blocked Moria from re-population by the Dwarves. 3) Sauron could direct these powers but believed that the use of them would result in such an overwhelming power force that he may be subject to to discipline by the Valar such as Morgoth was. For me, it is more about the second choice. I think it was at best an evil covenant where each power had some minor affiliation with the other and chose to "get along" with the others but maintain their own identity.
All of these different creatures and villains were like chess pieces for Sauron. He was using them where they were for a strategic purpose. I don't think we can say he placed them there, but I think we can assume that if he needed them elsewhere he would have found a way to move them. For Sauron, the battlefield was a chessboard and the Balrog was a powerful piece.
The balrog was a “living” obstacle that Moria a dark fortress and prevented the dwarves from retaking Moria and prevented the forces against him from passage through the mines.
I think it's impossible for the Balrog and Sauron not to know of each other's presence. The Balrog seems to tolerate the orcs at the very least as he was apparantly also present in the Chamber of Mazarbul when the fellowship was chased. The orcs fell silent and were scared, but the Balrog either ignored them or cooperated with them. It would not make sense for Sauron to try and recruit Smaug, but not the Balrog. However, the Balrog might be very reluctant to leave Moria. Not only has the place been it's nest and home and is it's uncontested ruling entity, but maybe also out of fear for Glorfindel and perhaps similar elves that could harm the Balrog. Wanting the One Ring seems plausible to me as that would increase it's own power making sure those elves would no longer be a threat to him. Without it, I don't think would be very keen to take on all of Lothlorien and Galadriel, or Rivendell with Elrond and Glorfindel.
I think leaving the Balrog to slumber deep in the Mines of Moria, as was the case in the book, makes the most sense. Though I do think Sauron would be able to control the Balrog--especially if Sauron was again in possession of his ring--it doesn't fit the character of Sauron at that point in time. Sauron seemed very calculated and deliberate in his actions. Disturbing the Balrog, even to press him into his service, would be a massive signal to the rest of the Wise in Middle Earth that Sauron was on the move. His Nazgul arose enough suspicion as it was and they were incredibly stealthy by comparison. Leaving the Balrog deep in hiding fits with Sauron biding his time while leaving the option to later use him as a pawn in any conquest of the North.
I think the bigger conversation is did Sauron know about all the creatures out there. For example: Smaug, the dragon from war in the north, those bats from the hobbit, the big worms from battle of the five armies, the spiders.
I gotta to point to the only other group of Maiar (the Istari) in Middle Earth for contrast. The Balrogs and Sauron probably had an understanding to for the most part, stay out of each others way. Being evil, they would’ve been unwilling to take orders from or share power with their former peer. Nor, unlike Sauron, did they wish to draw the attention of the Valar.
I have a suspicion that powerful beings or even creatures that were the product of Sauron's machinations would have the ability to sense the ring - the Nazgul, The Watcher (which I'm inclined to believe is a creature that existed there that was warped with the power of the one ring by Sauron), whereas powerful beings but of a "lesser" tier than Sauron that were not the product of/warped by the ring, like a dragon, probably would not sense it. Also the ambitions of for instance a dragon is arguably somewhat more base, I.e. greed for treasure, so the power imbued in the ring would probably be of no real interest to it. But a being or entity of the same tier or standing to Sauron such as the Balrog undoubtedly would have sensed the ring even if it did not know exactly what it was (having been in hiding since well before its creation) and absolutely would have been drawn out of hiding by it. And I'm inclined to believe the ring would intend to eventually work its way back to Sauron regardless of who it had to use to do so, as the ring and Sauron are essentially two sides to one coin. But Sauron, being jealous and also power hungry, transferred these traits to the ring and so whoever wore it, would eventually succumb to them, as was demonstrated on more than one occasion. Sauron knew and feared this, and so did not want the ring to fall into any powerful hands, as he knew that the wearer would try to use it against him. As to whether Sauron could have used or otherwise formally allied with the Balrog, really good question but I'm sure he realized that the Balrog in its current location was at least initially the best situation, regardless of whether there was any aligned cooperation. Ultimately I'm sure the Balrog would have (at least initially) assisted if not served Sauron if it came to it, but could well have fostered or developed ambitions of dominance should Sauron have had the victory - as was mentioned Sauron sought to rule and shape the world to his designs, whereas Morgoth sought to destroy or otherwise utterly corrupt it, and these philosophical differences may eventually have caused conflictin two beings of more or less equal standing. But of course this is speculation on a situation that did not materialize. Just some thoughts and would love comments on them, but the fact that these in-depth discussions on even peripheral and somewhat hypothetical aspects of the story is even possible, is a testimony of the sheer magnitude and utter brilliance of Tolkien's mythology and writing
What I believe is 2 things. 1. Sauron could have possibly convinced Durinsbane to join his army but he was not ready to in his current state. Have no physical form meant he was too weak to affectively convince or control Durinsbane. 2. Durinsbane didn't want to be know. If he became active on the surface of middle earth and joined Sauron's army the valar would have made moves against him. Not directly since the valar only have a passive influence on middle earth in the 3rd age, but many of them would have none the less would moved against him in some form. This would have put Durinsbane's life in danger and would have affected the plans of Sauron. We see what happened when one maiar went toe to toe with him.
The way Tolkien wrote creatures that came from the "depths of the world" as enigmatic mysteries, I'm almost positive that the Balrog was an independent entity
Based upon my reading of the Silmarillion, Gothmog (Lord of the Balrogs) was Morgoth's chief lieutenant and Sauron was much further down the chain of command. Based on this, it would appear the Balrogs were probably more powerful than Sauron. The dragons also did not answer to Sauron but were considered more powerful than him as well since the Balrogs served in the train of Glaurung the father of dragons. My interpretation of these incidents would indicate that Sauron was not able to command any of them. Had he been able to, the dragons would have helped Sauron during his war with the elves and the Numenoreans but they didn't (they were busy with their own interests and keeping their heads down from the Valar). Further, the Balrog was awake in Moria for a very long time but never aided Sauron. It was content with it's own way of life in Moria and it knew that if it openly appeared, the Valar would not have looked the other way but would have moved to destroy it since it was one of the most powerful Maiar in Middle Earth. No one outside of Moria and Mordor knew what Durin's Bane was. Even Gandalf was surprised that it was a Balrog in Moria.
I suspect the reason is the first... that it was hiding from the Valar. If it showed its face, they (or their servants) would appear to kill it. His resurrection as Gandalf the white after kilning it suggests this as well.
I fairly certain that Sauron did order the Balrog specifically to keep the dwarves out of Moria as he did promise them the return to moria if they joined him. And he was the lieutenant of Morgoth. No idea how much control he had though.
Tolkien at least considered having a ban put on the Balrogs, by the Valar forbidding them to come out from underground. Although of course the final phase of the battle with Gandalf did take place outside, but since the Balrog was killed, maybe it wouldn't contradict the possible ban.
Well as his second in command. He was still in charge of them. And if they still considered themselves to be in the service of the original dark lord. Then they would have also had to follow his orders
@@GiannioG I don’t think they can , otherwise the one that Gandalf fell with would have just let him fall and when Gandalf pursued him to the top of the mountain he didn’t just fly away from The wizard. But thanks for reading the comment
I believe that the main reason why the Balrog remained in Moria is because it wanted to. If Sauron was using his pawns to block the Fellowship, then the Balrog was ideally positioned to intercept, knowing that Gandalf would have no choice but to bring the ring to itself if they failed to cross the mountain pass, due to Gandalf's fear of bringing the Ring too close to Isengard. (because Saruman was more powerful than he) Gandalf probably assumed that the Balrog might not be aware of the Ring, while Saruman definitely was, and that made the passage through Moria preferable. The Balrog felt the power of the Ring as the Fellowship passed into Moria and he clearly wanted the ring for himself, and if he had been successful, he wouldn't need Sauron anymore, as a creature that evil and powerful would have no problems using it. At the very least, he would have become the senior partner, rather than the junior partner. One more thing to consider. It's likely that the Balrog feared Manwe so much that he feared to emerge from Moria, lest the Valar notice his presence. It's also very possible that Elrond, Saruman, and Galadriel could resist it with magic, and if worst came to worst, Glorfindel could always go and take another one for the team. I think that Gandalf felt that under the open sky, that the Balrog could have been successfully resisted by either Rivendell or Lothlorien, but both would have been equally helpless against Smaug.
Moria is a strategic point on the misty mountains, the balrog would be better left there as to prevent dwarves and the forces of the free people to reoccupy the mountain city
i think it would have been a better idea to move it south as the orcs had taken Moria without Balrog assistance and the Dwarves had failed in their campaigns to take it back but if a Balrog had attacked basically any fortress (specifically of men) it probably could have taken it by itself as what weapons of man can kill it? maybe if you had ballista massed against it or if you had one of the major powers like Gandelf you're not gonna kill one
Sauron was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth and controlled his armies. When Morgoth fell his army fled into the deepest darkest cracks of the world. I doubt Sauron knew of the Balrogs existence and in his weakened state doubtful he could have commanded it if he did. Same as Smaug, if Sauron had known of him prior to The hobbit, likely he may have tried to command Smaug to join him, but Smaug on his jewelled bed would probably have refused him. The balrog commanded the orcs, goblins and trolls of Moria, probably an army equal to Saurons. If they had both pledged allegiance, the war and the ring would have been lost.
Might be noteworthy that since Durin's Bane is the only known Balrog that got away (meaning he'd fled rather than defending his master to the end), he's probably one of the more cowardly and least loyal ones; he was hiding, only acting once provoked. He deliberately chose to cower in the shadows till the end of time instead of waging war on his enemies, which he could have been doing for millennia. Sauron couldn't have convinced him to leave his lair and go to war. The only two instances of violence from him were: literally getting dug up by the dwarves, and an Ainur (Gandalf) rummaging around in his hiding place; he probably thought the jig was up and that the Valar had come for him, hence his last desperate stand.
On the other hand, it’s possible the balrog didn’t know of the one ring’s existence and Sauron might’ve wanted to keep it that way. Due to the knowledge that Gandoalf’s holding the ring would’ve made him more powerful than Sauron, the balrog would have been able to overcome and enthrall Sauron without the ring’s influence, holding the ring would have relegated Sauron to a position just above the witch king. Then the only recourse would be an all out war led by the valar in order to bring the balrog to heel, possibly destroying most or all of the inhabitants of middle earth.
I agree with your opinion. Also, I don't think Sauron could CONTROL Durin's Bane without One Ring. All he could do at this point imho was to have a pact with it. Same with Smaug.
I think the Balrog had no idea what was going on outside of Moria and had no desire to even bother checking, less risk the possibility of the Valar finding it. It fled from them, it knows not that they left. That being said, if Sauron reached out to it and informed it that the Valar had returned to their land, then yes. I believe the Balrog would have joined the lesser Dark Lord, as the alliance would have only enhanced its survival chances. However, I think it would have ended the same with Gandalf finding and fighting it. Though maybe with Sauron's forces backing it, it could survive. Maybe.
The Balrog was staying underground for some reason. Its possible that he either had a deal with Sauron not to come out until the right time or that he was unwilling to come above ground for fear of what the Valar might do. But the thing is that the Balrog didn't hide when Gandalf showed up. He wasn't afraid at all and was willing to fight him head-to-head. Its quite possible that Sauron was holding him as a weapon in reserve to attack the remaining high elves at the right time. Other than Sauron himself, that Balrog was just about the only thing that could have gone directly after Glorfindel, Galadrial, Enrold or the remaining really strong elves. Especially if Sauron had to take them on without the one ring and with the Elven rings still in play as weapons. The Balrog was kind of in an ideal position to either attack north (Elrond) or East (Galadrial).
Another advantage Sauron would have keeping control of Moria, Iis the fact that it is (I believe) the only remaining place in middle earth where there are known mithril deposits. Though I could be mistaken. Surely keeping the peoples of the west from obtaining any more of this valuable resource would have been of great value.
So Durin's Bane was like a bottle of wine you're saving for a special occasion. If you take it out of its hiding place too soon, you'll just end up drinking it at any random time.
Sauron wouldn’t have used such a powerful ally obviously before he was ready. The third age of Arda was one of secrecy, essentially because Sauron needed time to recover after his defeat at the end of the second age. It’s important to remember that the White Council prevented Sauron’s come back for a long time until the trahison of Saruman. It wasn’t before the year 2850 TA that Sauron was surely identified by Gandalf. Sauron didn’t send the Nazgûl out of their fortresses before the summer 3019. That is the main reason for Sauron not to use the Balrog in battle : it doesn’t fit his strategy of secrecy. On the contrary, keeping the Balrog in Moria served well Sauron’s strategy : it’s obvious he wanted to close the pass, above and beneath the ground : the kraken was sent to keep the western gates, the orca and the Balrog guarded the eastern ones and the Cruel Caradhras controlled the pass above the ground. So I’m not sure that Sauron and the Balrog was formerly allies but they naturally served each other’s purpose.
I'd argue that the Balrog, if you could get it to talk, would not submit to Sauron unless Sauron himself came to subdue it and even then it would be likely to resist him because they are beings of equal status, and the time since Morgoth will not have strengthened the Balrog's faith in Sauron. And on top of this, Sauron's efforts since Morgoth may not impress this particular Balrog because while Sauron caused Numenor's fall and menaced the old world ever since in different guises, the Balrog personally broke one of, if not,the greatest dwarves kingdom through it's sheer might... so with that it would me kinda like Loki asking Thor to serve him. I agree how ever that the Balrog was a convenient monster Sauron simply left in place to block or hamper the free folk, he didn't control it, but it was fine by him to leave it there till he had claimed the land, then he would deal with it. Same I guess is true of Smaug, because Gandalf wasn't aware the Necromancer was Sauron at first, but when he did, he was indeed concerned the dragon could side with Sauron... though one would wonder why Smaugh would agree to do this since he was immensely full of himself.
I wonder if Sauron was cautious about bringing out the Balrog because he didn't want to provoke the Valar? He apparently liked to believe that they'd abandoned Middle-Earth, but they'd sent Glorfindel and the Wizards to oppose him, as the last supernatural agent of Morgoth active in the world, so he had probably concluded that their attitude was a bit "dog in the manger" - they didn't want to rule Middle-Earth themselves, or stir themselves from Valinor, but neither did they want other supernatural beings to have it. Thus he may have concluded that bringing the Balrog out could push them over their Godzilla threshold into further action. And he had the military forces to win anyway, even without the One RIng, so why risk it?
I dunno man, in a tightly packed city like Gondor anything of that size and strenght could become a weapon of mass destruction. Collapsing buildings, having the rouble crush those beneath. Not to mention if the Balrog were in command of the Siege and the Witchking could fully concentrate on killing Gandalf (the grey, due to the Balrog having been recalled to Mordor) It could have gone very differently.
What I find fascinating and what people tend to forget is that nobody knew there was a Balrog in Moria. Maybe Galadriel suspected something but surely she would have warned others in the White council. I don't think even Saruman knew what it was and Balrog awoke almost a thousand years after the Istari came to Middle-Earth. It was primarily Dwarven thing that just maybe a handful people knew of. I mean, Gandalf went trough Moria once before the fellowship from eastern gate to west and he didn't sense the Balrog nor did the Balrog sense him...or did he? In the book, first time Gandalf confronts him is in the upper chamber and he feels extreme power and dark magic that almost crushed him and still, he didn't know what he is up against not until they reach the bridge and then he becomes aware what it is. Sauron probably sent delegates to Balrog to rouse him up and serve as a lookout for anything suspicious thus helping their common goal. But I wouldn't think that he could command him. Balrogs were Melkors personal guard and although Sauron was his second in command I always think that their allegiance is only to Melkor. If anything they would go to war against each other very quickly after and if the Shadow had won the War of the ring. Some sort of civil war amongst the forces of evil. Balrog had already by this time quite a cult following among Misty mountain orcs or goblins basically being worshipped as a Dark Lord. Now, Sauron was in a body reincarnated but in what shape? We only get that he was terrible and frightening to look at or be in his presence but was he in a human form or orc or something else. I would go for human. And he was all about control and delegated much of his actions to subordinates whereas on the other side you have an actual demon from the ancient world more animal in spirit and destruction and rage. I would think that orcs would eventually turn against Sauron in favour of the Balrog. Even more so I think that Balrog and Smaug would work much closer together against Sauron than any combination of them serving Sauron.
Very good video and very interesting question. Personally I have the following theory: Sauron and the Balrogs were both Maiar so roughly on the same rank. While Sauron was Morgoths second in command and very intelligent, Balrogs were much more than just savage beasts and I'm quite sure they were cunning in their own ways. In the lore it was made very clear that Sauron never stopped his worship of Morgoth even after he was banished. He knew that his master would return some day and he wanted to amass power to prepare the world for the end war at the side of his dark lord. I think the Balrogs also remained loyal to Morgoth so Sauron never had to prove that he was as worthy as Morgoth only that he was best suited to represent him until his return. And there I think was the problem. Sauron was powerful but without the ring his leadership was not without question. In that state I would assume that the Balrog(s) were ready to cooperate with him, as long as they see merit in his plans, but not serve him and just follow his orders. They would help him as long as they see him on the winning side, but if he showed weakness they would return to their hideouts waiting for the return of their true master. Or in other words: They would only lend him their power if they were sure that he didn't need it. Another question is: What would a Balrog do if it came into possession of the one ring. Personally I think it would not return the ring to Sauron but instead ursurp Saurons Position. I don't think the Balrog would try to destroy Sauron but just ursurp his position as number two.
Well, the Balrog had an immense fear instilled by the War of Wrath, that the Valar, Maiar and Eldar of Aman would come for him and eradicate him like they did with the rest of his kind and his master at the end of the First Age. I think the Balrog just wanted a place to hide, while waiting for the return of his master. Time doesn't really matter for such beings in my opinion. And i definitely think that the Balrog was a force of mass destruction as well as a very strong single entity. The only beings that could stop him in the Third Age on the side of the free people were the really old and powerful elf lords like Glorfindel, who was even enhanced after his rebirth in Aman, so that his powers would revival those of the Maiar, and Elrond and Galadriel as well as the Istari. But thats about it, if you don't count beings like Tom Bombadil. If the Balrog could slaughter and defeat more or less the whole army and population of Khazad Dum, there is nothing which would have stopped him to climb over the wall of Minas Tirith and slaughter all the Gondorians there as well. But i don't think the Balrog himself would have liked that, because it would mean he would be in the spotlight again and the Valar and Iluvatar might have reacted to that, because his presence would turn the odds to much in the favor of evil in Middle Earth. And the Balrog himself as a Maiar might have understood that and just decided to wait for the return of Melkor in its full power.
Most of me assumes he COULD have controlled the Balrog, or at least persuaded it to work at his behest, but he liked it in Moria, where it kept the Dwarves from regaining their lost power. Maybe he couldn't out and out demand it serve; they were both unmantled Maiar, existing in Middle Earth of their own choice, and then Sauron had depleted himself so much with the Ring, and then its loss, but they were both evil, and I feel they could have worked together, even if neither saw the other as superior. Part of me is actually glad it didn't happen. I'll whine forever about how unawing Sauron was. He was a fallen angelic being; a protean powerhouse with many shapes, powers, and weapons, able to compel much evil to at least stand alongside his banner, yet the most impressive servants he fielded were often JUST Trolls, Orcs, and evil men. The Nazgul were impressive, but even we don't always know what their actual powers were, and how capable, and they were few. He didn't raise zombies, or master ghosts. When he went out to fight, even with the Ring, he just armored up, and swung a mace. The same whiny fanboy in me that wanted to see him stride our as the greatest werewolf, or do his best rendition of a Beorning, and roflstomp through lines of troops, before falling upon their generals, did hope he could enlist something like a Balrog, or a Dragon, just to give his force that extra supernatural edge, and terror. Having said that, I started with I'm actually glad he didn't, and Aragorn is why. On the one hand, watching Aragorn topple such a threat with Anduril would have been cool, but on the other, while he did some magical stuff, it's actually a bit more believable without him ALSO having to slay a dragon, or Durin's Bane. He was impressive, but now I don't have to wonder how one man did it, when so many others couldn't, and paradoxically those who did almost always died in the attempt. I think I like him more for the fact that he was still, in many ways, "merely" a Man.
I'm more interested in why the Balrog revealed itself to the Fellowship. It had literally nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so. Unless it WAS in Sauron's service and could sense the ring, it would have been better served just letting them go, or letting the orcs deal with them. Instead, it came out and got itself killed.
I think the Balrog might have sensed Gandalf, a fellow Maiar. After the downfall of Thangorodrim, the Valar would be looking for Morgoth's former servants. Unlike Sauron, who was able to make a comeback, Durin's Bane has likely been driven deep underground and is unaware that the Valar are no longer directly involved in Middle Earth, instead sending agents like Gandalf and Saruman. If the Balrog is hiding from the Valar, the presence of Gandalf (and Sauron through the One Ring) would have gotten its attention. Why would Maiar be wandering in Moria unless they were hunting it?
What do you think Saruman know of the balrog in Moria? Especially when he started to lean towards evil and gather orcs to his service. Some of them could have come from further north, from Moria.
"Moria... You fear to go into those mines. The dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum... Shadow and flame."
I always get chills when Saruman says that line.
Its those exact lines that make me believe Sauron had to know about it. If Saruman knew then he would have notified Sauron if Sauron didn't already know
@@Kellenmcconnell1417 well I don't have a credible source cause I can't remember where I heard it but I heard Balrogs were loyal to Morgoth and Morgoth alone as he was their creator so if that's true then Sauron could either kill it or leave it be and it seems he chose to leave it be
@@gamerdude7481 morgoth didn't create them though he may have been the reason they were twisted into the demons they became.
I don't believe that line is in the book though, it was only in the film. Based on the books (or at least what I felt after reading it) most people seem to be aware that something powerful had awoken in Moria and drove out the Dwarfs but no one was really sure exactly what it was. It was only when the fellowship directly encountered it when they passed through Moria that Gandalf recognised it as a Balrog. But it is implied that the Orc's living there were connected to Sauron as their ranks apparently included several "Black Uruk's of Mordor" which had only appeared recently and where known to only serve him directly, so the theory that he knew of the Balrog via the Orcs living in Moria does hold up.
What a coincidence, I had just this phrase in my thoughts as well. Memories from my childhood, things I don't forget because of the beautiful, mystical sound of the words. But also it leads me to believe that the Balrog was not there on purpose .. it was a horror discovered in the depths .. a horrible coincidence ..
I always imagined as a child .. the labour of the stone in so horribly scary depths .. flat stone is in front of them, as the dwarfs are so far down: they stand in front of cliffs and they are at the deepest point. They have tools, they work the stone, everybody else would be scared to death, but they are careless, everybody else is scared of just watching where they are. The fear has always been there, the darkness has always been scary and anybody but the dwarfs would look over their shoulder , scared of noises, of who might be there. And then the wall crumbles, and it becomes real: The Balrog.
This Balrog was kind of passive in his actions. He secured the Moria and kept to himself for a loooong time. He never revealed himself. He never raided Lothlorien which was under his nose. When dwarfs attacked the Moria he watched but didnt interfere. He didnt even command the orc army, he just waited to see if dwarfs will try to reclaim the mine. When dwarfs had created a colony in Moria, he didnt attack nor reveal himself. For thousands of years he was content with keeping low profile. Maybe he was sort of traumatized by stomping that Valar delivered unto the dark armies. Maybe he was passive without Morgoth to direct him. He acted only once fellowship of the ring came to him. He might have sensed a power of the ring...or Gandalf? Servant of Valar in his home? Is he there for him? Will he inform the Valar that one of the Balrog was located?
Anyhow, I dont think that Sauron controlled him. He would probably be able to persuade him and coerce him into compliance but not to command him.
I think that sauron can't control the Ballrog. He probably know him from some orcs or his eye see him, but I think without the ring he has no physical firm so he can't go to Moria and recute the Ballrog. I also think that he shall do that on his own because if you were a high demon would you accept instructions of a orc, which was maybe send by the dark lord. I don't think so.
I'm pretty sure he was slumbering rather than observin what was going on until he was awoken, also I thought he got trapped under there after Eru did the whole reformation of arda?
@@SuperNils666
I am not sure what you are referring to.
It is said by one of the dwarfs that after victory over orcs at the gates of Moria victorious army refrained from entering the mines because they could tell that something was lurking in the darkness just beyond the gates waiting for them.
@@drarsen33 Yeah Dain the dwarf actually saw the Balrog within the threshold of Moria and convinced the rest of the dwarf army that Durin's Bane was still present and they couldn't defeat it. That's why they didn't retake it during the War of Dwarves and Orcs.
@@ravenlord4256 Sauron did have a wraith/spirit form, the Balrog likely would've been able to see it and communicate with it. Sauron could've easily sent a Nazgul to Moria as well. In the books Sauron did have a physical form by the end of the Third Age.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power." - Gandalf
Who is it?
@@nicolassilva1729 Sauron, he meant that ni one else can controll the one ring tho it's made from Sauron
@@nicolassilva1729 Sauron. Its from the scene when Gandalf the grey fled from Orthanc Tower
NB: then Saruman said "So you have chosen death"
@@nicolassilva1729
Nancy Pelosi
Sauron might have been Morgoth's chief lieutenant in the First Age, but by the Third Age he had been diminished by the Downfall of Numenor, his defeat at the Black Gates, and the loss of the one ring. He may not have been confident in his ability to compel a strong entity like a Balrog or Fire Drake to serve him.
But still, Sauron is still more powerful than Durin's Bane. Back in Battle of Dagorlad, Sauron fought thousands of troops consisting of Elves, Dunedains, and Dwarves. Most notable feat is that he defeated Gil Galard and Elendil. These two are very powerful warriors who can fight equally with Maiars. It's like he defeated at least 3~4 Balrogs by himself. But still, Durin's Bane is still not a foe Sauron can underestimate. But since, they once served same master and Sauron was higher, I'd say there is a chance Balrog of Moria might join forces with Sauron. Maybe if Smaug was alive, Sauron could've used him as mercenary too. Smaug loves treasures and Sauron, while he likes to rule, he doesn't show a lot of interest of it, so he could've make Smaug work for him by taking all to treasures from kingdoms of men that he will attack in return, Smaug fights for him.
Sauron's true strength lies in his cunning intellect and his creative prowess. Before he was corrupted by Melkor, Sauron (aka Mairon) was known for his love for order and his obsession with creation, only matched by his former master Aulë. When he was serving Morgoth, he became his greatest servant not because of his brute strength or combat skills but because of his excellent strategy and creative plans which consolidated Morgoth's dominance. Balrogs on the other hand were Maiars corrupted long before Sauron. In fact, Balrogs went with Morgoth as early as the music of Ainur. This ensured a greater loyalty and bond with their master.This became evident when Balrogs rescued their master from Ungoliant. Balrogs also had their own chief, Gothmog. However, powerful Sauron was during the first age, Balrog acted only by the order of Morgoth and for Morgoth and no one else. There's no way Sauron could command Balrogs without the mediator, Morgoth, and wisely enough Sauron never did.
Sauron was was definitely more powerful than a Balrog. Maybe not without his ring though.
@@garammaru3272he planned on using Smaug. Because Gandalf knew Sauron was gaining power he didn’t want him to partner with Smaug and used dwarves and Bilbo as a means to prevent that
The theory about Sauron knowing about the Balrog, but both of them allowing the other to exist independently, is great as well. In my head I imagine Sauron and the Balrog talking and agreeing to continue the works of Morgoth independent of each other, yet still working towards the same goal. Love hearing people talk about Tolkien
Oh yeah that's certianly possible, and it would still have been a great asset to Sauron, albeit an independent one :)
Prestige Worldwidewidewide; this is also my view that Sauron wanted the Balrog to stay put as an independent being.
- The Balrog was the anchor for the center of Sauron’s western line/boundary. The Dwarves could not establish their great kingdom in Moria. And Elrond or Galadriel could not move large forces far to the east with the Balrog at their back.
- And if any powerful being was foolish enough to go into Moria, the Balrog would kill them. After all, Gandalf was killed by the Balrog (which also died but the death of Gandalf would be worth it to Sauron).
- Also, keeping the Balrog in Moria, without consulting with it, meant it would not challenge the authority of Sauron.
- The only weakness of Sauron’s plan for the Balrog was that he gambled that the Valar would not intervene in the struggle for Middle-earth (such as the Valar resurrecting/creating a more powerful version of Gandalf, called the White.) Morgoth made a similar losing gamble when he was on the threshold of conquering Middle-earth during the First Age.
Im guessing Sauron was more interested in conquering the surface world, leaving the underworld to the Balrog and other deep dwelling orcs. That way Sauron didnt need to be concerned with Dwarves meddling his plans.
Skywarp; agreed
Sauron would have mostly knew about the Balrog since even Saruman was aware of it.
I think the Balrog would have tried to get control of the ring for itself as it could have been just as powerful as Sauron was. And being that the Balrogs may have owned their allegiance with Morgoth it might have seen Sauron as just a usurper.
hmm Sauron never really tried to usurp Morgoth though, and he was technically still working in his name albeit with a slightly different end goal. It's cool to wonder whether the Balrog would have used the One Ring, and how powerful it might have become!
@@GeekZoneMT Yes but being that Sauron and the Balrog are both evil, both worked for Morgoth, its natural that they might come to conflict trying to be the one that tries to bring Morgoth back from the Abyss. The Balrog may see that IT is the only one worthy to be the one to do that. Evil always turns on itself in time.
Plausible, but I don't think so. First, I dont think the balrog would have even had knowledge of the ring as he has been hiding underground, presumably since the end of the War of Wrath. And I think Sauron would have been too cunning to mention it or let it fall into the balrog's possession. I think the only balrog that could have rivaled Sauron's power with the ring would be Gothmog, and he was killed by Ecthelion, an elf, in the battle of Gondolin. The ones who could have rivaled Sauron in power that were still alive are Gandalf and Saruman. Would be cool to see a ring empowered balrog whoop on Sauron and the free peoples though.
@@Omni1Illu I would think that the Balrog might have sensed the Ring in the fellowships possession and might be why it pursued them. A powerful being like the Balrog would have had extremely fine senses to sense something as powerful and evil as The Ring. But that's just my opinion and we may never truly know.
@@mikebattista1523 You missing a point. The Ring bows only to SAURON! Because the Ring is Sauron's spirit!
I feel like Sauron was depending on the world of men to stay divided. If he had used big scary monsters like balrog and Smaug, men would agree they needed to unite. I think he used evil men and orks hoping that each kingdom wouldn't feel quite as threatened, instead choosing to shelter in place, as we saw, until the end of the story. Aragorn and Gandolf had a difficult time convincing the various kingdoms of men and elves to unite, even having to rely upon ghosts for help. Even then a direct assault would have failed. Success was always dependent upon Frodo and Sam succeeding in their mission to destroy the ring
Good points.
@@AC_Bikes_400 this world is assimilating new darkness. New energy. If you want to see the dark prophet of our time: go to him. Love him. His channel name is "share his vision". Go listen to his wisdom. Sub to him. He teaches and displays many glorious and terrifying powers. And his forehead and feet are blessed with the blood of baby jesus. Go to him. His writing will destroy heaven forever.
Amen ruclips.net/video/n7rjEEk7q9M/видео.html
Your very smart sir
I'd rather think that using balrog openly would trigger the response of even mightier powers.
The reason why Sauron had such a free rein in middle earth was because he was a weakened version of what he once was.
Seems like all higher powers were very confident that he was not a serious threat that forces present in the area could not handle - see the final battle at Black Gate, where he moved all he could to have superior numbers.
Neither balrog of Moria or Smaug had anything to gain from aligning with a waning power, but if they did, this could trigger an overwhelming response that would crush them.
I think Sauron was a lost cause and balrog knew it. Only when Gandalf and the ring of powered were in the zone he got triggered by this opportunity - think about it, a balrog could actually use the ring of power! :) And kicking Olórin's ass in the process of obtaining it would be such a good feeling :)
Valid points. I would just like to add that Tolkien wrote Sam was the most important character cause he held the ring twice and never was taken by it's power when everyone prior was taken by it power in some way or another. Sam would of destroyed the Ring no problem Gandalf knew that's when they all met up when Gandalf met and they told him Frodo was with Sam that great big grin he gets oh man love that part.
Ever since I first watched the film as a kid I always wondered that if balrog and sauron were allies.
Hopefully this anwers your question ;)
@@chapxe132 Because that is the case, it had been sleeping there for thousands of years. But before that it fought in great battles.
It was hiding after the war of wrath.. I think as a lieutenant of morgoth he could have commanded the Balrog. Since his servents knew it was hiding in moria, he would have brought him out near the end of the war. But Gandalf ended that plan (Gandalf did well to take pieces off the board, Balrog, smaug and saruman)
@@stefanorsan7518 i know Gandalf was concerned. But i dont think Smaug would have joined Sauron, he was too proud. Sauron would send Ringwraith emisaries. Smaug would say no and retort that Sauron can have his world but he himself would own the mountain. Sauron could have dragged him out in defeat but it wouldnt be worth the effort and theyd likely settle into a similar situation lake that of Sauron and Shelob.
@@jonathonfrazier6622 agreed
I like your first theory, and what you said about the Balrog’s intelligence. I feel as thought the ego or pride of a Balrog could keep it from serving Sauron, as they could see themselves as equals or even greater than him.
Hmm, what if they saw their service to Sauron as a means of of fulfilling Morgoth's will, rather than the end goal itself? :)
@@GeekZoneMT I can definitely see that occurring as well! I love thinking about the war of the ring from all perspectives like this, and I hope the amazon prime show can flesh out Sauron or give us more scenes with him. There’s certainly a lot of stuff they can pull from! Cheers brotha
@@Chelooby The Balrog was not equal to Sauron! Sauron is the strongest Maiar. Sauron is one of the higher rank Maiar and the Balrog is lower rank (like Gandalf and other Istaris). Balrog and Sauron knows each other from the Morgoths era. Its possible for Sauron to being the commander of the Balrogs after death of Gothmog. Cause Sauron was Morgoths mightiest and deadliest servant and second in command after Morgoths himself.
In my opinion, The Balrog would serve and help Sauron
@@_semih_ it is a vaild theory however not 100% convincing as we actually know very little about Forces of Darkness in terms of power structure.
1. We know nothnig about logic behind chain of command- it was never stated if Sauron's position of captain of Morgoth came from his personal authority or it was just extension of Morgoth's. In other words we dont know if during 1st age fallen Maiars followed Sauron's orders only because Morgoth told them to do so.
2. There is no record of any law of succesion on Dark Lord's position. We do not know if after Morgoth's fall his authority over all evil simply passed to Sauron as his 2nd in command or Sauron was just self-proclaimed evil overlord.
Without asnwer to those question we can only assume and make theories. But I rather tend to a "no" as there are no records of relic powerful evil spirits flocking under Mordor banner in 2nd and 3rd Age. Even in case of Smaug fans makes theories of alliance between dragon and Sauron and you do not make alliances with servants.
Way back in the depths of time they probably had some history together and knew each other. Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't like each other.
I love how you can take a single character/item in Tolkien’s works, and there’s either a deep history of that, or a certain mystique in the unknown origin.
We've gotta give credit to Tolkien for creating such an immersive living world with so many overlapping themes and histories!!
@@GeekZoneMT couldn’t say it better myself. He lived through so much in the real world and then crafted one with beauty and terror that somehow or someway (to me), mirrors our own. Tolkien’s works are my favorite stories without a doubt, and I love that other people share that feeling!
After Sauron lost his ring, maybe he didn't want to talk to other powerful entities, like Smaug or Barlog, without getting back the ring first.
I think ultimately the balrog would not listen to Sauron. The balrogs only answer to Morgoth and they wait for his return.
Like with Smaug, Sauron could probably get him to do what he wanted, but would choose a more circumspect approach than simply giving orders as with orcs and trolls.
Sauron was 2nd only to morgoth, so the dragons, balrogs ect.. They all knew who he was. If sauron had made direct contact with smuag or a balrog, then I think they would have reached an agreement, somthing like well we could take middle earth together for morgoths return. If it was a dragon like smuag, sauron could simply offer it all the dwarven kingdoms. If it was a balrog, an eleven ring once they were recovered plus anywhere it choose as its realm. But what the video says is mostly correct although the balrogs were more than capable of wiping out entire armies the elves feared them greatly, they are maiar as is stated. A maiar has the power to obliterate entire swathes of land. I think the only beings capable of destroying the balrog during the war of the ring in the third age were gandalf, galadriel using her ring, sauruman and Tom bombadil. Elrond perhaps but I have my doubts to that I think at the very most he would die aswell. But one thing that needs to be considered is not all balrogs are the same power. They are all maiar yes but each maiar spirit has its own "powers" so the one gandalf fought could have perhaps only been like middle teir strength wise.
@@stuartmclean1521 Don't forget about Glorfindel. He could definitely take down the balrog
@@theunknownanomaly1950 ahhh yes glorfindel could take a balrog, can't believe I missed him haha. (As it is implied that glorfindel in the Lord of the rings is the same glorfindel from the silmarillion, so he already has killed one at the sacking of Gondolin, although again he died in the process.) i realised not long ago that literally every balrog we hear of fighting one on one has resulted in a double death.
@@stuartmclean1521 Yeah, and Glorfindel was weaker before when he killed the Balrog at Gondolin. After he was revived and granted a power boost, he was strong enough that even the maiar counted him as an equal(unsure if he was as strong as the strongest maiar or not, but it is confirmed he was now maiar-level) and was even capable of putting fear into the Nazgul just by being there.
Comparing the Balrog's role with Shelob's wraps up the video quite nicely. I always thought that Sauron was secretly delighted with the Balrog guarding Moria for him. And for free, too!
The question is, could Durin's Bane being a Maiar like Sauron posses the ability to wield the one ring, effectively adding Sauron's dark power to his own... 🤔
I imagine it could, though it would still be less powerful than Sauron at his peak! :)
Id guess the balrog would be even more powerful than peak Sauron, as Sauron put so much of his power in the ring that once it was destroyed he was essentially powerless. Id assume that a Balrog would be able to access enough of Sauron’s power that, since w/o it a Balrog is still immensely powerful, that added to Sauron’s stolen power it would be even worse.
Night's King well the evidence is that w/o the ring (existing) he’s essentially powerless , so if a balrog essentially assumed sauron’s expended power I’d argue that another miar would be able to incorporate enough of sauron’s inate power that it’d be superior. Even if the power conversion wasnt 100% it’d likely be enough to surpass Sauron.
Night's King Agreed. Not considering the ring, Sauron as a higher level Maiar out-ranked the Balrogs significantly.
It’s possible that the balrog’s fingers may have been way too thick to be able to wear the one ring - thus unable to assume additional power that the ring possessed.
I question whether Sauron is fully aware of the Balrog's existence. In the books the Balrog's existence is steeped in mystery. Even Gandalf seems surprised by its pressence at the Bridge of Khazard Dum, having been unable to previously recognize the mysterious force who countered his spell upon the doors of the Chamber of Mazarbul. Indeed, even before its discovery, the mair lurked in the deepest tunnels of the Misty Mountains, home to 'Nameless Things' of which Sauron is unaware of.
The Dwarves who survived Khazad Dum's downfall are seemingly unaware of its true nature, referring to it as 'Durin's Bane'. While the Dwarves have seen battle against Dragons in the First Age, there is little evidence in the Simarilian to suggest that the Dwarves, or at least those in Khazad Dum, would have had any encounters with these foes'. Regardless, given the secretive nature of the Dwarves, it is doubtful that Sauron agents would have learned about the Balrog's existence from Durin's Folk.
Then there are the orcs and goblins of the Misty Mountains. From my understanding these tribes mostly consist of survivors from Angband who are only loosely affiliated with Mordor. While these tribes are certainly aware of the Balrog's existence, knowing enough to fear its pressence, would they be aware of its true power? The orcs would not have fought alongside balrogs for Thousand of Years and, given what we have seen in the book, do not seem like the type to keep written records of these events. If Sauron's agents did have sufficient contact with the Orcs of Moria, would they have been able to convey the Balrog's existence, or would they just describe a nameless terror stalking through the shadows?
Now assuming Sauron was able to piece together the mystery of Durin's Bane, it is doubtful that he would be able to control the Balrog, at least not without the One Ring in his possession. Both are creatures of the same order, Maiar, with Balrogs being referred to as 'Demon's of Might'. In the Simarilian they are Morgoth's chief servants, capable of driving back the likes of Ungoliant with their fury. If made aware of its existence, Sauron would likely see the Balrog as a dangerous wild card in his campaign to control Middle Earth or pehaps even a potential rival. Unlike Saruman, who shared a prior allegiance to Aule, the Balrog would probably not be easily swayed into service.
Instead, I argue that Sauron would seek to leave the creature to its own devices, given its contentment to remain within the darkness of Moria. Whether it fears the wrath of the Valar or simply prefers to rule Moria through fear, Durin's Bane seems uninterested in either aiding or impeding Sauron's conquest of Middle Earth.
It's an interesting thought. I don't think you're right with the connection about "Nameless things which Sauron is unaware of"... the Balrog isn't a nameless thing. But the rest... In the books, it is Gandalf who talks about the dwarves of Moria delving to greedily and too deep, disturbing that from which they fled, Durin's bane. Did Gandalf, of all people, not put a name to that menace. Did Aragorn not know, when he feared for Gandalf? It's true that Legolas didn't make the connection ahead of time.
When Gandalf was relating the fight at the door, do you think the Balrog was on the other side? It was the same foe as at the bridge? If so, it's true, Gandalf said, "What it was I cannot guess". But when the door burst into pieces, "something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside". Does that sound like a Balrog? Why was he so close, but took so long to come back? Later on, seeing the red glow, Gandalf says, "There is some new devilry here"... implying it wasn't the same thing as at the door. But then... and this I guess wins you the main argument: "A Balrog", muttered Gandalf, "Now I understand."
About control, then... Well, if I understood Carl's argument, it wasn't that the Balrog was under his control, but that he was a natural ally and would have wanted to serve Sauron.
On a different matter, in those thousands of years before the dwarves disturbed it... what was it doing? Sleeping? Playing poker with its mates? It doesn't seem it was active in Moria, ruling through fear. Was it ruling in any sense, if nobody knew it was there?
Anyway, I enjoyed your stimulating thoughts.
Speaking of the 'nameless things' ve had friends suggest that they happen to coincide with eldritch creatures. H.P lovecraft done snuck into LotR.
The Balrogs served Melkor, Serving Sauron would kind of be like serving the boss's kid
Gandalf: 🔱👄🔱
"You shall not pass"
Balrog: 🔴👄🔴
Frodo : 💧👄💧
I love this thread!! 😂
Legolas watching the others cry: 👁👄👁
Aragon coming in clutch with his sword
🦾👁👄👁🤳🔪
While i dont believe the balrog was directly under Saurons command, he soon would have been had Sauron recovered the Ring. As it was he was likely already being influenced by Sauron from afar, whethor the Balrog knew this or not. Either the Ring called out to him in Moria and thats why he appeared or else orcs reported their presence. But it seems unlikely that the Balrog would rouse himself to go after 9 individuals when an army of orcs were on them. He either sensed the Ring or Gandalf or both. Thats why he didnt leave it to the little guys.
Yeah I think it's quite plausible that the Balrog could sense the One Ring. After all it's implied that the Watcher in the Water was able to, and I I imagine that the Balrog was more sensitive to its presence.
@@GeekZoneMT Yes, it's very likely the Balrog could sense the One ring. When I think of it, crossing Balrog's territory with the One Ring was a very stupid idea x) And that might be the real reason why Gandalf was so reluctant to do so.
IMO, there is no way Sauron could control the Balrog without his One ring. And if the possibility araised, the Balrog (like Saruman) would have claimed the One ring for himself.
Sauron didn't enlist the balrog (Durin's Bane) before the Third Age because it was hiding and possibly sealed deep, deep in Moria. During the Third Age, it was the dwarves that were master miners that could dig so deep to awake and accidently release the balrog. Sauron was too weak without the One Ring to subdue a balrog to his will. More importantly, strategically for Sauron, Durin's Bane was doing a great job just denying Moria from the Western allies. Whether it was due to Sauron's design or not.
The Balrogs were very high up in the hierarchy that Melkor had. They also seemed more loyal than Sauron who did desert Melkor in the First Age. It seems ridiculous that the Balrog found its way to where it was by chance. It could be that before his fall Melkor ordered it to go into hiding at this exact location. It could be that while the Balrog would've considered Sauron to be an ally it would never follow his orders whether he possessed the ring or not. Whatever orders Melkor gave it would take precedence.
It seems fairly clear from the books that orcs entered Moria from the east at around the same time that the Fellowship was entering Mordor. Message were likely sent from Sauron to the Balrog at this time. Gandalf had travelled through Moria before without rousing the Balrog. We can see with Grisnakh that some of the orc captains had knowledge of the ring. So this seems to prove that Balrog was acting on information that a party would be near Moria and that it would be carrying the ring that Sauron needed to win the war. I don't believe that the Balrog would claim the ring for itself. It would see the ring as being part of Sauron's plan to fufill whatever mission Melkor had left to him. The one thing that seems to be a fair point is that Sauron did abandon Melkor in the First age, quite some time before he fell. We are also told he genuinely offered to leva Middle Earth at the end of the first age if he received a pardon. It's not clear what the Balrog would've known about this. By the time the Balrog was freed/revealed in the Third age all it would've seen is that Sauron was still a servant of Melkor and working to overthrow his enemies.
@@mikedeck8381 suaron could indeed control the balrog if he chose to. He was Morgoth's second in command and controlled all beings below him. Furthermore Sauron likely didnt betray Morgoth, he was likely sent into hiding by Morgoth whereareas its more likely the balrog was working on his own machinations after fleeing. Without the Ring Sauron could command the balrog, with the Ring on Sauron's hand the balrog's disobedience seems yet more laughable.
So happy to see my question answered and yet more mystery of Arda to explain.
You're welcome Michael!! :)
I don’t think the Balrog would even talk to a ringless Sauron
Sauron had the ringwraiths. Morgoth had the balrogs. That just gives a feeling of scale to Silmarillion.
I have always wondered what the Balrig would have done if he had obtained the one ring. There are lots of possibilities there.
The board game War of the Ring can include the balrog with the Lords of Middle Earth expansion. Definitely makes for some interesting scenarios.
I wish the Tolkein franchise produced films from the start to the finish (Lord of the Rings). I feel we missed out on so much more mystery, adventure and all round awe. Someone needs to do this.
I love these videos and how you obviously think these things through. This one, in particular, was really interesting. I agree that Sauron wanted Durin’s Bane to stay riiiiight where he was. It was convenient for him, just like Shelob, and the North was more of a pressing concern for him than the South.
Thanks Andy! These sort of videos are really fun to research and to prepare, so hopefully I'll find other similar topics in the future! :)
'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
Gandalf is establishing that the true conflict is between Melkor and Eru. Flame of Udon being a reference to Melkor’s fortress Utumno and the Secret Fire a reference to Eru’s ability to create life. Melkor is presumably the Shadow suggesting Sauron isnt pulling their strings.
I agree with other posters who opine the Balrog would only take commands from Melkor himself despite Sauron’s position. Maybe The balrogs are like the german SS or the roman legionnaires fanatically sworn to protect only one leader. Just my 2 cents.
I’ve been asking this question forever, searching through sub Reddit’s and social media for its discussion but to no avail. Great video mate!
You're most welcome my friend! I hope you're finally satisfied with the answer :)
I've been thinking that while many orcs, trolls, evil men and many other dark creatures acknowledged Sauron as their new Dark Lord, Balrogs' loyalty belonged only to Morgoth himself and no one else, not even to Sauron. Shadow of War game already proved that the Balrogs would answer to no one, save for Morgoth who wasn't even around anymore.
I agree that the Balrogs and dragons will only answer to Morgoth. The prophecy that Morgoth will break his restraints and return from the void for one last battle in the end times. Most likely any remaining Balrogs will appear as they did in Morgoth battle against Ungoliant.
Sauron was Morgoth's second-in-command, his foremost captain. The Balrog had almost certainly served under Sauron at some point. Rank-wise, they were not equals, for even Gothmog, the greatest of the Balrogs, was not Sauron's equal in the command structure.
@@revanofkorriban1505 well technically they were both lieutenants and had the same rank although sauron was generally left in charge but that might have been more for his cunning and intelligence and not necessarily that he was stronger
@@tommark3015 My whole point is that Sauron outranked the Balrog, and that by precedent, Balrogs were willing to serve masters who were weaker than them if it served the cause. Think, for example, of when Melkor was about to be eaten by Ungoliant, and they rescued him.
Is that game based on canon? I've never played it, so I'm unsure.
Well presented. If the question is “If Sauron knew of the balrog, why didn’t he make use of it”, it is possible (as mentioned) that he DID use it, and keeping Moria out of the hands of his enemies was that very use. Given the balrogs low-profile residence in Moria, that may not have been of concern to Sauron as long as the job was getting done. Sauron had many faults, but he never struck me as a micro-manager who told his senior staff how to do their jobs. He assigned tasks and assumed they would be carried out to best of his servants abilities. Also, given that he had the Nazgul for the Minas Tirith campaign, the balrog was better used at Moria, and as a backup or replacement for Saruman given his questionable allegiance.
Sorry, Sauron did control neither the Balrog of Moria nor Shelob. Both were beyond his control. He did not even control the evil spiders of Mirkwood! Or most of the other creatures (like dragons) which somehow survived the War of Wrath. He did not even control most of the orc tribes outside of Mordor. There has not even been a single attack of the orcs of Moria on Lothlorien, they all came from Dol Guldur. After the Witch-king left Eriador in 1975 TA, Sauron had no forces in the north. Gandalf feared that Sauron could somehow get Smaug as an ally and thus orchestrated Smaug's demise in the same year the White Council (which most likely included armed forces from Lothlorien) drove the Necromancer from Dol Guldur.
BTW I am sure that the balrog of Moria is not the only Balrog who somehow survived...
I think Sauron may have not trusted the Balrog. Although he had once been Morgoth's second in command, he wasn't as powerful as he once was, and it's entirely possible that something as powerful as a Balrog could turn his allies against him. The orcs of the Misty Mountains were terrified of it and might have served it out of fear if it came to a war between it and Sauron. It's also possible that the Balrog had no interest in going to war or killing, which is why it had been so passive since awaking from its slumber. It had it's own little kingdom to rule, no master to serve, and perhaps after losing the war and his master realized that resisting the Valar was futile. I also think it's possible that Sauron feared that the Balrog might try to claim The One Ring for itself, which is what it may have tried to do in "Fellowship of the Ring". I just can't imagine the Balrog willingly serving Sauron.
If the balrog had been discovered for what it was prior to the fellowship, I wonder if perhaps the white council or maybe even Glorfindel may have attempted to slay the creature.
Perhaps the Balrog of Moria never were loyal to Morgoth to begin with, as you state they're intelligent and could make their own decisions.
They chose to betray their fellow Ainur, and Iluvatar their creator to follow Morgoth, so I think at that point their fates were tied with his, and their goals aligned
@@GeekZoneMT If you betray something once, it's easier the next time though.
They seemed pretty loyal when they rushed to save Melkor from Ungoliant. They easily could have betrayed Melkor and taken a silmaril or two for themselves and made themselves some minor lords, but they didn’t.
Considering the power of the Balrog, sauron could have conquered the realms of men with ease, imagine the battle for helms deep at the start it just destroys the wall with its massive sword. I always imagined that sauron would have been afraid of allying with a Balrog because of their immense power as maiar spirits like sauron, but they had their full power, whereas sauron had split his power into the one ring. So my theory is sauron would wait until he had the ring before allying with a fellow maiar spirit that could potentially oust him from power as he was so weak when the Balrog became known to him. Great video btw, I like your voice its kind of soothing.
I always imagined a fight between souron and a balrog
I imagine Sauron would wreck it :P
@@GeekZoneMT 😂😂 I'm inclined to agree
@@GeekZoneMT Even without the ring?
@@skaraturbo definitely not.
@@skaraturbo the ring was like literally all his power
That Balrog lived through the battle in which the Valar crushed a Melkor at the height of his military might.
It is clear to me that this balrog was hiding and trying to go unnoticed. Not because he feared death as we do, but because a Balrog is a Maia chained to his body and unable to create a new one. The destruction of his body would have caused him to have to be a formless spirit and almost certainly have to have faced the judgment of the Valar, which were STILL out there.
Join Sauron? Sauron probably struck him as suicidal. And even if it were not like that, I doubt very much that a Balrog (who I suppose would be proud beings) would bow down to a Sauron who is not in a higher hierarchy than his.
I think he couldn't control it yet. He was still trying to regain his strength during the war of the ring becasue he still didn't have the one ring and was thus not at full power nor had a body. Had he had gotten the One ring and regained his body, there's no doubt he would have been able to summon and control the Balrog.
Sauron had a physical form by during the war of the ring. Books imply it multiple times.
I do need to point this out; according to Shadow of War
(i dont know if its cannon or not)
Sauron did know the location of at least one balrog, given the quests to fight it.
Sauron: I have a balrog under my control! The world of men will fall!
Melkor: *kid, those are rookie numbers*
U should make a video between Smaug and the balrog of Moria and who would win in a fight
I have been watching this channel for a while now and have to thank you for rekindling my interest in Tolkien's works. Keep up the good work! 😁👍
I remember reading somewhere that Sauron tried to recruit the Balrog but he couldn't control it at all because it was created by Morgoth, a much more powerful being than Sauron.
I’m imagining a very funny scene in my head where a goblin nonchalantly mentions that he came across a balrog in Moria and the Necromancer pees himself out of excitement and fear.
Putting the Balrog as a last Ditch Defense into Mount Doom itself would have very well prevented Frodo and Sam form destroying the Ring, as he would have stopped them without a Doubt. So I dare say that the Balrog would have made a huge Difference if he were utilized in the same Way as Shelob. The Orcs would have kept Moria under Controll anways, Balins efforts were floolish at best.
I never understood why Mount Doom, the only Place the Ring could still be destroyed was not guarded at all. At least by a Nazgûl or tow.
The benefits of leaving it in Moria feel more like bonuses to me. Sauron poured a massive amount of his power into the One Ring. This likely means that if Durin's Bane cared to, it could overpower Sauron, seizing his place as the Dark Lord of Middle Earth. Sauron would not have been willing to take that risk. However, had he regained the One Ring, I believe he would have welcomed Durin's Bane into his forces.
I would love to see an alternate timeline where the Balrog gets the Ring while Frodo is in Moria and rises up as a challenger to Sauron.
Can't help but notice the MTG art at 3:39 lmao.
At 3:40, the image is used is from a magic the gathering card called Torbran, thane of red fell
And off course the famous “you shall not pass” scene, with this feline Balrog belongs in the narrative.
ruclips.net/video/1mf06IwdpVM/видео.html
Loved this video, Follow up video idea, “Could the balrog have actually used the one ring? And what would happen if the balrog managed to use it?”
3:36 a wild Torbran appears
I've only ever seen the movies, but I always saw the Balrog as a captain holding a stronghold. In my view, it was necessary to defend the passage from the "nameless things".
The Balrog could have also been entirely content as the lord of Moria, it being one of the most grand realms in Middle Earth
I think there are several possible reasons.
1) Plot device. Using either the Balrog or Smaug in direct conflict with the West would made the current story a pushover for his forces. Tolkien would have had to come up a balancing power to keep it interesting.
2) Sauron did not have direct power over these beings. Orcs and humans were subject to the power of the One Ring and to his manipulation (as shown in his form before its destruction). So he could not direct them as Morgoth could not control Ungoliant, but could only enter into a pact with her. So instead Sauron used "soft power" such as combined ends with them to leverage their power. Shelob blocked the path into Mordor, Smaug took power away from the North East and the Balrog blocked Moria from re-population by the Dwarves.
3) Sauron could direct these powers but believed that the use of them would result in such an overwhelming power force that he may be subject to to discipline by the Valar such as Morgoth was.
For me, it is more about the second choice. I think it was at best an evil covenant where each power had some minor affiliation with the other and chose to "get along" with the others but maintain their own identity.
All of these different creatures and villains were like chess pieces for Sauron. He was using them where they were for a strategic purpose. I don't think we can say he placed them there, but I think we can assume that if he needed them elsewhere he would have found a way to move them. For Sauron, the battlefield was a chessboard and the Balrog was a powerful piece.
The balrog was a “living” obstacle that Moria a dark fortress and prevented the dwarves from retaking Moria and prevented the forces against him from passage through the mines.
What an amazing video! Thank you yet again for another great video for my weekend! Love this!
Sauron's physical appearance looks very similar to the balrog, particularly in the face.
Lol no
I think it's impossible for the Balrog and Sauron not to know of each other's presence. The Balrog seems to tolerate the orcs at the very least as he was apparantly also present in the Chamber of Mazarbul when the fellowship was chased. The orcs fell silent and were scared, but the Balrog either ignored them or cooperated with them. It would not make sense for Sauron to try and recruit Smaug, but not the Balrog.
However, the Balrog might be very reluctant to leave Moria. Not only has the place been it's nest and home and is it's uncontested ruling entity, but maybe also out of fear for Glorfindel and perhaps similar elves that could harm the Balrog. Wanting the One Ring seems plausible to me as that would increase it's own power making sure those elves would no longer be a threat to him. Without it, I don't think would be very keen to take on all of Lothlorien and Galadriel, or Rivendell with Elrond and Glorfindel.
Gandalf just putting a couple of wrenches in Sauron's plans
I think leaving the Balrog to slumber deep in the Mines of Moria, as was the case in the book, makes the most sense. Though I do think Sauron would be able to control the Balrog--especially if Sauron was again in possession of his ring--it doesn't fit the character of Sauron at that point in time. Sauron seemed very calculated and deliberate in his actions. Disturbing the Balrog, even to press him into his service, would be a massive signal to the rest of the Wise in Middle Earth that Sauron was on the move. His Nazgul arose enough suspicion as it was and they were incredibly stealthy by comparison. Leaving the Balrog deep in hiding fits with Sauron biding his time while leaving the option to later use him as a pawn in any conquest of the North.
I think the bigger conversation is did Sauron know about all the creatures out there. For example: Smaug, the dragon from war in the north, those bats from the hobbit, the big worms from battle of the five armies, the spiders.
Dude is there an audio-only version of these videos? I would love to have this on spotify
I gotta to point to the only other group of Maiar (the Istari) in Middle Earth for contrast. The Balrogs and Sauron probably had an understanding to for the most part, stay out of each others way. Being evil, they would’ve been unwilling to take orders from or share power with their former peer. Nor, unlike Sauron, did they wish to draw the attention of the Valar.
This is a question so deep that it will take the combined power of geeks and nerds to solve.
Great topic / discussion.
I have a suspicion that powerful beings or even creatures that were the product of Sauron's machinations would have the ability to sense the ring - the Nazgul, The Watcher (which I'm inclined to believe is a creature that existed there that was warped with the power of the one ring by Sauron), whereas powerful beings but of a "lesser" tier than Sauron that were not the product of/warped by the ring, like a dragon, probably would not sense it. Also the ambitions of for instance a dragon is arguably somewhat more base, I.e. greed for treasure, so the power imbued in the ring would probably be of no real interest to it.
But a being or entity of the same tier or standing to Sauron such as the Balrog undoubtedly would have sensed the ring even if it did not know exactly what it was (having been in hiding since well before its creation) and absolutely would have been drawn out of hiding by it.
And I'm inclined to believe the ring would intend to eventually work its way back to Sauron regardless of who it had to use to do so, as the ring and Sauron are essentially two sides to one coin. But Sauron, being jealous and also power hungry, transferred these traits to the ring and so whoever wore it, would eventually succumb to them, as was demonstrated on more than one occasion. Sauron knew and feared this, and so did not want the ring to fall into any powerful hands, as he knew that the wearer would try to use it against him.
As to whether Sauron could have used or otherwise formally allied with the Balrog, really good question but I'm sure he realized that the Balrog in its current location was at least initially the best situation, regardless of whether there was any aligned cooperation. Ultimately I'm sure the Balrog would have (at least initially) assisted if not served Sauron if it came to it, but could well have fostered or developed ambitions of dominance should Sauron have had the victory - as was mentioned Sauron sought to rule and shape the world to his designs, whereas Morgoth sought to destroy or otherwise utterly corrupt it, and these philosophical differences may eventually have caused conflictin two beings of more or less equal standing. But of course this is speculation on a situation that did not materialize.
Just some thoughts and would love comments on them, but the fact that these in-depth discussions on even peripheral and somewhat hypothetical aspects of the story is even possible, is a testimony of the sheer magnitude and utter brilliance of Tolkien's mythology and writing
What I believe is 2 things.
1. Sauron could have possibly convinced Durinsbane to join his army but he was not ready to in his current state. Have no physical form meant he was too weak to affectively convince or control Durinsbane.
2. Durinsbane didn't want to be know. If he became active on the surface of middle earth and joined Sauron's army the valar would have made moves against him. Not directly since the valar only have a passive influence on middle earth in the 3rd age, but many of them would have none the less would moved against him in some form. This would have put Durinsbane's life in danger and would have affected the plans of Sauron. We see what happened when one maiar went toe to toe with him.
The way Tolkien wrote creatures that came from the "depths of the world" as enigmatic mysteries, I'm almost positive that the Balrog was an independent entity
Based upon my reading of the Silmarillion, Gothmog (Lord of the Balrogs) was Morgoth's chief lieutenant and Sauron was much further down the chain of command. Based on this, it would appear the Balrogs were probably more powerful than Sauron. The dragons also did not answer to Sauron but were considered more powerful than him as well since the Balrogs served in the train of Glaurung the father of dragons. My interpretation of these incidents would indicate that Sauron was not able to command any of them. Had he been able to, the dragons would have helped Sauron during his war with the elves and the Numenoreans but they didn't (they were busy with their own interests and keeping their heads down from the Valar). Further, the Balrog was awake in Moria for a very long time but never aided Sauron. It was content with it's own way of life in Moria and it knew that if it openly appeared, the Valar would not have looked the other way but would have moved to destroy it since it was one of the most powerful Maiar in Middle Earth. No one outside of Moria and Mordor knew what Durin's Bane was. Even Gandalf was surprised that it was a Balrog in Moria.
Brilliant video as always. Cheers!
Thanks man!! :)
I suspect the reason is the first... that it was hiding from the Valar. If it showed its face, they (or their servants) would appear to kill it. His resurrection as Gandalf the white after kilning it suggests this as well.
It seems likely that the Balrog and Sauron personally knew each other
And what about the other balrogs? There could have been others around
I don't know if there are any other living balrogs but I think I saw one balrog
I fairly certain that Sauron did order the Balrog specifically to keep the dwarves out of Moria as he did promise them the return to moria if they joined him. And he was the lieutenant of Morgoth. No idea how much control he had though.
Tolkien at least considered having a ban put on the Balrogs, by the Valar forbidding them to come out from underground. Although of course the final phase of the battle with Gandalf did take place outside, but since the Balrog was killed, maybe it wouldn't contradict the possible ban.
Well as his second in command. He was still in charge of them. And if they still considered themselves to be in the service of the original dark lord. Then they would have also had to follow his orders
The Balrog riding Smaug flying in formation with the Nine on their beasts over Rivendell would be a terrifying sight
But Barlog can already fly, why use Smaug?
@@GiannioG I don’t think they can , otherwise the one that Gandalf fell with would have just let him fall and when Gandalf pursued him to the top of the mountain he didn’t just fly away from The wizard. But thanks for reading the comment
I don't know, i think there was not enough space to use his wings in that fall. And also a Barlog may be too heavy for Smaug. Thanks for the reply
I believe that the main reason why the Balrog remained in Moria is because it wanted to. If Sauron was using his pawns to block the Fellowship, then the Balrog was ideally positioned to intercept, knowing that Gandalf would have no choice but to bring the ring to itself if they failed to cross the mountain pass, due to Gandalf's fear of bringing the Ring too close to Isengard. (because Saruman was more powerful than he) Gandalf probably assumed that the Balrog might not be aware of the Ring, while Saruman definitely was, and that made the passage through Moria preferable.
The Balrog felt the power of the Ring as the Fellowship passed into Moria and he clearly wanted the ring for himself, and if he had been successful, he wouldn't need Sauron anymore, as a creature that evil and powerful would have no problems using it. At the very least, he would have become the senior partner, rather than the junior partner.
One more thing to consider. It's likely that the Balrog feared Manwe so much that he feared to emerge from Moria, lest the Valar notice his presence. It's also very possible that Elrond, Saruman, and Galadriel could resist it with magic, and if worst came to worst, Glorfindel could always go and take another one for the team.
I think that Gandalf felt that under the open sky, that the Balrog could have been successfully resisted by either Rivendell or Lothlorien, but both would have been equally helpless against Smaug.
Moria is a strategic point on the misty mountains, the balrog would be better left there as to prevent dwarves and the forces of the free people to reoccupy the mountain city
i think it would have been a better idea to move it south as the orcs had taken Moria without Balrog assistance and the Dwarves had failed in their campaigns to take it back but if a Balrog had attacked basically any fortress (specifically of men) it probably could have taken it by itself as what weapons of man can kill it? maybe if you had ballista massed against it or if you had one of the major powers like Gandelf you're not gonna kill one
Sauron was the chief lieutenant of Morgoth and controlled his armies. When Morgoth fell his army fled into the deepest darkest cracks of the world. I doubt Sauron knew of the Balrogs existence and in his weakened state doubtful he could have commanded it if he did. Same as Smaug, if Sauron had known of him prior to The hobbit, likely he may have tried to command Smaug to join him, but Smaug on his jewelled bed would probably have refused him. The balrog commanded the orcs, goblins and trolls of Moria, probably an army equal to Saurons. If they had both pledged allegiance, the war and the ring would have been lost.
Might be noteworthy that since Durin's Bane is the only known Balrog that got away (meaning he'd fled rather than defending his master to the end), he's probably one of the more cowardly and least loyal ones; he was hiding, only acting once provoked. He deliberately chose to cower in the shadows till the end of time instead of waging war on his enemies, which he could have been doing for millennia. Sauron couldn't have convinced him to leave his lair and go to war. The only two instances of violence from him were: literally getting dug up by the dwarves, and an Ainur (Gandalf) rummaging around in his hiding place; he probably thought the jig was up and that the Valar had come for him, hence his last desperate stand.
GeekZone , Sauron should have had the Balrog guard the gate into the cracks of doom
He should of just bricked up the entrance.
@@anubusx that's the better solution. I forgot that a Balrog could claim the One Ring for itself.
On the other hand, it’s possible the balrog didn’t know of the one ring’s existence and Sauron might’ve wanted to keep it that way. Due to the knowledge that Gandoalf’s holding the ring would’ve made him more powerful than Sauron, the balrog would have been able to overcome and enthrall Sauron without the ring’s influence, holding the ring would have relegated Sauron to a position just above the witch king. Then the only recourse would be an all out war led by the valar in order to bring the balrog to heel, possibly destroying most or all of the inhabitants of middle earth.
I agree with your opinion. Also, I don't think Sauron could CONTROL Durin's Bane without One Ring. All he could do at this point imho was to have a pact with it. Same with Smaug.
I think the Balrog had no idea what was going on outside of Moria and had no desire to even bother checking, less risk the possibility of the Valar finding it. It fled from them, it knows not that they left.
That being said, if Sauron reached out to it and informed it that the Valar had returned to their land, then yes. I believe the Balrog would have joined the lesser Dark Lord, as the alliance would have only enhanced its survival chances.
However, I think it would have ended the same with Gandalf finding and fighting it. Though maybe with Sauron's forces backing it, it could survive. Maybe.
The Balrog was staying underground for some reason. Its possible that he either had a deal with Sauron not to come out until the right time or that he was unwilling to come above ground for fear of what the Valar might do. But the thing is that the Balrog didn't hide when Gandalf showed up. He wasn't afraid at all and was willing to fight him head-to-head. Its quite possible that Sauron was holding him as a weapon in reserve to attack the remaining high elves at the right time. Other than Sauron himself, that Balrog was just about the only thing that could have gone directly after Glorfindel, Galadrial, Enrold or the remaining really strong elves. Especially if Sauron had to take them on without the one ring and with the Elven rings still in play as weapons.
The Balrog was kind of in an ideal position to either attack north (Elrond) or East (Galadrial).
If he could then all hell would be breaking loose! Great video! 🔟
Imagine if he decided to travel westwards! Our poor Hobbits!😢
Thars sad alright! 😢
Another advantage Sauron would have keeping control of Moria, Iis the fact that it is (I believe) the only remaining place in middle earth where there are known mithril deposits. Though I could be mistaken. Surely keeping the peoples of the west from obtaining any more of this valuable resource would have been of great value.
So Durin's Bane was like a bottle of wine you're saving for a special occasion. If you take it out of its hiding place too soon, you'll just end up drinking it at any random time.
Sauron wouldn’t have used such a powerful ally obviously before he was ready. The third age of Arda was one of secrecy, essentially because Sauron needed time to recover after his defeat at the end of the second age. It’s important to remember that the White Council prevented Sauron’s come back for a long time until the trahison of Saruman. It wasn’t before the year 2850 TA that Sauron was surely identified by Gandalf. Sauron didn’t send the Nazgûl out of their fortresses before the summer 3019.
That is the main reason for Sauron not to use the Balrog in battle : it doesn’t fit his strategy of secrecy.
On the contrary, keeping the Balrog in Moria served well Sauron’s strategy : it’s obvious he wanted to close the pass, above and beneath the ground : the kraken was sent to keep the western gates, the orca and the Balrog guarded the eastern ones and the Cruel Caradhras controlled the pass above the ground.
So I’m not sure that Sauron and the Balrog was formerly allies but they naturally served each other’s purpose.
I'd argue that the Balrog, if you could get it to talk, would not submit to Sauron unless Sauron himself came to subdue it and even then it would be likely to resist him because they are beings of equal status, and the time since Morgoth will not have strengthened the Balrog's faith in Sauron. And on top of this, Sauron's efforts since Morgoth may not impress this particular Balrog because while Sauron caused Numenor's fall and menaced the old world ever since in different guises, the Balrog personally broke one of, if not,the greatest dwarves kingdom through it's sheer might... so with that it would me kinda like Loki asking Thor to serve him.
I agree how ever that the Balrog was a convenient monster Sauron simply left in place to block or hamper the free folk, he didn't control it, but it was fine by him to leave it there till he had claimed the land, then he would deal with it. Same I guess is true of Smaug, because Gandalf wasn't aware the Necromancer was Sauron at first, but when he did, he was indeed concerned the dragon could side with Sauron... though one would wonder why Smaugh would agree to do this since he was immensely full of himself.
I wonder if Sauron was cautious about bringing out the Balrog because he didn't want to provoke the Valar? He apparently liked to believe that they'd abandoned Middle-Earth, but they'd sent Glorfindel and the Wizards to oppose him, as the last supernatural agent of Morgoth active in the world, so he had probably concluded that their attitude was a bit "dog in the manger" - they didn't want to rule Middle-Earth themselves, or stir themselves from Valinor, but neither did they want other supernatural beings to have it. Thus he may have concluded that bringing the Balrog out could push them over their Godzilla threshold into further action. And he had the military forces to win anyway, even without the One RIng, so why risk it?
I dunno man, in a tightly packed city like Gondor anything of that size and strenght could become a weapon of mass destruction.
Collapsing buildings, having the rouble crush those beneath. Not to mention if the Balrog were in command of the Siege and the Witchking could fully concentrate on killing Gandalf (the grey, due to the Balrog having been recalled to Mordor) It could have gone very differently.
What I find fascinating and what people tend to forget is that nobody knew there was a Balrog in Moria. Maybe Galadriel suspected something but surely she would have warned others in the White council. I don't think even Saruman knew what it was and Balrog awoke almost a thousand years after the Istari came to Middle-Earth. It was primarily Dwarven thing that just maybe a handful people knew of. I mean, Gandalf went trough Moria once before the fellowship from eastern gate to west and he didn't sense the Balrog nor did the Balrog sense him...or did he? In the book, first time Gandalf confronts him is in the upper chamber and he feels extreme power and dark magic that almost crushed him and still, he didn't know what he is up against not until they reach the bridge and then he becomes aware what it is. Sauron probably sent delegates to Balrog to rouse him up and serve as a lookout for anything suspicious thus helping their common goal.
But I wouldn't think that he could command him. Balrogs were Melkors personal guard and although Sauron was his second in command I always think that their allegiance is only to Melkor. If anything they would go to war against each other very quickly after and if the Shadow had won the War of the ring. Some sort of civil war amongst the forces of evil. Balrog had already by this time quite a cult following among Misty mountain orcs or goblins basically being worshipped as a Dark Lord. Now, Sauron was in a body reincarnated but in what shape? We only get that he was terrible and frightening to look at or be in his presence but was he in a human form or orc or something else. I would go for human. And he was all about control and delegated much of his actions to subordinates whereas on the other side you have an actual demon from the ancient world more animal in spirit and destruction and rage. I would think that orcs would eventually turn against Sauron in favour of the Balrog. Even more so I think that Balrog and Smaug would work much closer together against Sauron than any combination of them serving Sauron.
Very good video and very interesting question. Personally I have the following theory: Sauron and the Balrogs were both Maiar so roughly on the same rank. While Sauron was Morgoths second in command and very intelligent, Balrogs were much more than just savage beasts and I'm quite sure they were cunning in their own ways. In the lore it was made very clear that Sauron never stopped his worship of Morgoth even after he was banished. He knew that his master would return some day and he wanted to amass power to prepare the world for the end war at the side of his dark lord. I think the Balrogs also remained loyal to Morgoth so Sauron never had to prove that he was as worthy as Morgoth only that he was best suited to represent him until his return.
And there I think was the problem. Sauron was powerful but without the ring his leadership was not without question. In that state I would assume that the Balrog(s) were ready to cooperate with him, as long as they see merit in his plans, but not serve him and just follow his orders. They would help him as long as they see him on the winning side, but if he showed weakness they would return to their hideouts waiting for the return of their true master. Or in other words: They would only lend him their power if they were sure that he didn't need it.
Another question is: What would a Balrog do if it came into possession of the one ring. Personally I think it would not return the ring to Sauron but instead ursurp Saurons Position. I don't think the Balrog would try to destroy Sauron but just ursurp his position as number two.
Well, the Balrog had an immense fear instilled by the War of Wrath, that the Valar, Maiar and Eldar of Aman would come for him and eradicate him like they did with the rest of his kind and his master at the end of the First Age. I think the Balrog just wanted a place to hide, while waiting for the return of his master. Time doesn't really matter for such beings in my opinion.
And i definitely think that the Balrog was a force of mass destruction as well as a very strong single entity. The only beings that could stop him in the Third Age on the side of the free people were the really old and powerful elf lords like Glorfindel, who was even enhanced after his rebirth in Aman, so that his powers would revival those of the Maiar, and Elrond and Galadriel as well as the Istari. But thats about it, if you don't count beings like Tom Bombadil.
If the Balrog could slaughter and defeat more or less the whole army and population of Khazad Dum, there is nothing which would have stopped him to climb over the wall of Minas Tirith and slaughter all the Gondorians there as well. But i don't think the Balrog himself would have liked that, because it would mean he would be in the spotlight again and the Valar and Iluvatar might have reacted to that, because his presence would turn the odds to much in the favor of evil in Middle Earth. And the Balrog himself as a Maiar might have understood that and just decided to wait for the return of Melkor in its full power.
Most of me assumes he COULD have controlled the Balrog, or at least persuaded it to work at his behest, but he liked it in Moria, where it kept the Dwarves from regaining their lost power. Maybe he couldn't out and out demand it serve; they were both unmantled Maiar, existing in Middle Earth of their own choice, and then Sauron had depleted himself so much with the Ring, and then its loss, but they were both evil, and I feel they could have worked together, even if neither saw the other as superior.
Part of me is actually glad it didn't happen. I'll whine forever about how unawing Sauron was. He was a fallen angelic being; a protean powerhouse with many shapes, powers, and weapons, able to compel much evil to at least stand alongside his banner, yet the most impressive servants he fielded were often JUST Trolls, Orcs, and evil men. The Nazgul were impressive, but even we don't always know what their actual powers were, and how capable, and they were few. He didn't raise zombies, or master ghosts. When he went out to fight, even with the Ring, he just armored up, and swung a mace. The same whiny fanboy in me that wanted to see him stride our as the greatest werewolf, or do his best rendition of a Beorning, and roflstomp through lines of troops, before falling upon their generals, did hope he could enlist something like a Balrog, or a Dragon, just to give his force that extra supernatural edge, and terror.
Having said that, I started with I'm actually glad he didn't, and Aragorn is why. On the one hand, watching Aragorn topple such a threat with Anduril would have been cool, but on the other, while he did some magical stuff, it's actually a bit more believable without him ALSO having to slay a dragon, or Durin's Bane. He was impressive, but now I don't have to wonder how one man did it, when so many others couldn't, and paradoxically those who did almost always died in the attempt. I think I like him more for the fact that he was still, in many ways, "merely" a Man.
I'm more interested in why the Balrog revealed itself to the Fellowship. It had literally nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing so. Unless it WAS in Sauron's service and could sense the ring, it would have been better served just letting them go, or letting the orcs deal with them. Instead, it came out and got itself killed.
I think the Balrog might have sensed Gandalf, a fellow Maiar. After the downfall of Thangorodrim, the Valar would be looking for Morgoth's former servants. Unlike Sauron, who was able to make a comeback, Durin's Bane has likely been driven deep underground and is unaware that the Valar are no longer directly involved in Middle Earth, instead sending agents like Gandalf and Saruman.
If the Balrog is hiding from the Valar, the presence of Gandalf (and Sauron through the One Ring) would have gotten its attention. Why would Maiar be wandering in Moria unless they were hunting it?
What do you think Saruman know of the balrog in Moria? Especially when he started to lean towards evil and gather orcs to his service. Some of them could have come from further north, from Moria.