You really have to admire Tolkien's artistry. He weaves the threads of his story so that it seems you never run out of details to spot or connections to make. The longer you study his work, the more intricate and impressive it seems.
31 times have I marched on Orodruin, and am taking my 8yo along for his first, and my 32nd, March on Erebor, and still something new occurs to me, as well as Lexi and the Tolkien Geek pointing out something I've either not articulated or even never considered. The man was a genius.
@EriktheRed2023 Thanks 😊 I read it to my now 14 yo when he was 6, my now 12 yo when he was 7, and I started it with my 8 yo last year, but some life changes at work have...slowed progress. The elder 2 have now completed LotR on their own...to my delight and their mother's distress, declaring it superior to Harry Potter 😉 They, like myself, like both...but their mother has the opposite view. I do need to finish the Hobbit with my 8 yo soon...I am feeling the itch to go through LotR anew.
I think the most mind blowing thing about this is the inverted parallel of Gandalf’s dealings in both kingdoms. I wouldn’t have even thought to look at that. 🤯
Wasn't even looking for a Gandalf-angle when I noticed how he retraces his steps, like he's getting a do-over for the pickles he found himself in as the Grey. I swear someone in the room could have *heard* the record-scratch sound of my train of thought derailing when I saw it 😂
I've read Lord of the Rings more times than I care to recall and had never seen the similarities between Denethor and Theoden until these last two videos. The layers to Tolkien's legendarium never cease to amaze me.
I knew they had some obvious things in common, but as I started to stack them up I couldn't get over how everything happens *in the same order* for them. The asynchronous storytelling makes it a little harder to spot, as does the difference in Merry-centric v Pippin-centric narration, but scraping those layers back I felt like I was looking at the same plot, but one told as a tragedy and the other as something like a heroic romance.
@@GirlNextGondor The King's name was originally going to be Theodren, but Tolkien decided that made the parallel too obvious. ;-) Great research and video!!
Slightly off topic but I love that literally the first thing Eomer does upon being released from an unjust imprisonment tell Hama to fetch his sword so that he can declare his fealty to Théoden, nicely shows that he understood it wasn't really Théoden's fault and that despite everything Grima said he was unwaveringly loyal.
True confession...I had never perceived the now (thanks to you) obvious and deliberate parallel lives of Theoden and Denethor despite numerous readings. While I am truly embarrassed, my obvious lack of mental acuity makes me even more aware of my gratitude for this channel and its creator. Clearly, I stand in desperate need of your tutelage. Thank-you, Lexi!😕
I vaguely knew they had 'stuff' in common, but I also was sadly ignorant of how deep it went, and how seemingly-deliberate it was, until I started researching! Then I felt very silly for not having noticed it sooner😅 I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I absolutely love the way you analyse the text. This is my favourite Lord of the Rings lore channel. I always thought that the deciding factor between the two was their pride, Theoden being more humble, accepted the help and advice of Gandalf. While Denethor trusting in his own stength. However I always believed that things would have been different had he not sent his last son to his death.
Another great GNG video! Always informative and fun! These 2 characters are a very interesting contrast… not quite Goofus and Gallant from “Highlights for Children” days of my youth … but somewhere on that spectrum 😅
In my reading, I have come to the impression that Theodan had his courage "renewed" by Gandalf. Yet he still went to a hopeless-seeming battle at Helm's Deep and won, and then again on the Pelennor Fields where his attack saved the city of Minas Tirith from sack and destruction. But these were, basically, last-charge suicides and that Theodan did not understand that this first attack by Mordor, that nearly over-whelmed Gondor, was but a small part of Mordor's forces. And as Tolkien himself said on hte use of the Palantir: "Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his defeat was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were no doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son." They were not in the same spot. Denethor had vastly better information and was watching his remaining son die in front of his eyes. This over-whelming force in Mordor is why Gandalf counseled Aragorn and the other surviving leaders to attack Mordor. Just to give Frodo a slightly better chance of destroying the ring since there was no way the west would survive Mordor's next assault. Because, by arms, it was hopeless and arms is all that Denethor had by then.
Mr. Eyeball, I do not know you, but I wish you the best and hope things start to look up. You are always welcome in this place of good lore and spicy memes.
My favourite video. Literally Aid from the provinces. Especially the last quote on making repeated decisions on what duty demand’s literally gave me chills. ❤❤❤ thank you for your work Lexi.
I think to little weight is given to Denethor's deep insecurity and resultant underlying jealousy. Many years before the War of the Ring, a young outland warrior (Aragorn incognito) offered service to Denethor's father. He was wildly successful and the rumour-mill suggested that he might be named Steward. But, Aragorn, to the delight of Denethor, had other roads to travel and Aragorn disappeared just before the death of Denethor's father. So, despite his appearance of authority and power, I think that Denethor was a deeply insecure Ruling Steward, always reluctant to take advice. Theoden was insecure in his own way. By the time that Gandalf frees him from Grima's/Saruman's enchantment, he regrets that he will be the last King of Rohan, ending the rule his people had had over the land (and the Subject Races (the Dunlendings)) for almost a thousand years... The difference is that he chooses to answer the Call from Gondor and follow the sole possible honourable path open to him. Denethor Surrenders...
I agree, I think the idea of Denethor living in the shadow of his father's preference for "Thorongil" explains... almost everything, from a psychological perspective, from his distrust of Gandalf to his relationship to his sons. It's interesting that Tolkien relegates almost all that information to the Appendices, even though it seems like such a key to his character. I think Denethor and Theoden *both* realize that realistically, they have little hope (statistically and practically speaking, *no* hope) of actually withstanding Mordor. While I was researching, though, I was impressed by how much care they both take to address pragmatic concerns. Hirgon brings the summons to Theoden *while he's preparing to ride to Gondor anyway,* since everyone is aware that if Minas Tirith falls Rohan will be next. And one of the first things Theoden asks is whether there's going to be enough food in Minas Tirith for his riders, or if they need to carry some with them - he's *taking thought* for a future he has no reasonable hope of seeing.
This is an excellent overview of the contrast between Théoden and Denethor, the best I have ever read or seen since I first read Lord of the Rings fifty years ago. Kudos, Girl Next Gondor!
Denethor could not accept the possibility of a future where the Gondor he knew was ruled by anyone else but him regardless of the legacy that the Stewards would rule only until a true king emerged. It was his undoing. Gandalf could not reason with him but Minas Tirith would have likely fallen before any aid could come had Gandalf not temporarily taken charge. Théoden did not have Denethor's ego or his insecurities so he was able to break free of Grima/Saruman's lies with Gandalf's aid and, despite not surviving himself, make it possible for Rohan to survive.
I think that their responses to Aragorn are quite telling. They both meet him in their youth and their final year. Both have different experiences with him, and therefore, differing opinions on his destiny.
As always, you are the best GNG. Great comparison. Sorry I'm not the same as always, dear Lexi. If you know, you know, my friend. 6:14 What a painting! Regarding Denethor's demise, the heart can take only that much. When the heart gives in, you either become iron or lose all hope. My heart died yesterday and today and will never heal. But my hope is now as smoldering as the inferno of hell and my anger is iron from an abyss of anger. For Denethor, it was too much.
The most important point is Denethor is using the Palantir, but still afraid. Sauron has them, in fact corrupting him and Sauruman through them is the key to his whole campaign bereft of his ring. Denethor is bewitched or accursed. It's the temptation to see the enemies designs and then he has you. You panic or become what you hate. Theoden rides
When Gandalf rides to Isengard, Sauruman has the secret key. So does Denethor. Palantir. They know Sauron so they think they can own him, that is they think they have the advantage. But Theoden has nothing but his Rohirrim, and he never thinks he has the advantage.
I think there's definitely something to the fact that Rohan is the less powerful, less "advanced" realm; it seems like it would contribute to the humility needed to come to terms with just how limited your scope for action is.
Interesting, as always. 🙂 I wonder if Tolkien overtly intended their arcs to parallel so closely or if it was a subconscious thing from a man who was so heavily immersed in mythology. I lean towards the former, mind; dude went full tilt in his world building.
At the end, Denethor's mind is most clearly expressed when he answers Gandalf's question of what he wants: “I would have things as they were in all the days of my life...and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard’s pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.”
GNG mentions that final flare of the fire before death, and it brought to mind Umslopogaas' glorious stand at the stairs in Haggard's "Allan Quatermain". The night before, Umslpogaas ran a hundred miles alongside a horse. Then he gets a fulsome fifteen minutes of sleep: "Then I woke Umslopogaas. The great man rose, stretched himself, and swung Inkosi-kaas [his axe] round his head. ‘It is well,’ he said. ‘I feel as a young man once more. My strength has come back to me, ay, even as a lamp flares up before it dies. Fear not, I shall fight a good fight; the wine and the sleep have put a new heart into me." No spoilers, but the name of the chapter is "How Umslpogaas Held the Stair". It is glorious.
It is never spelled out directly, but I suspect that Denethor has used the Palantir to spy out Aragorn. As soon as he saw Aragorn's face, he recognized him as his rival of old. With this awareness and the knowledge gleaned from viewing Sauron's multitude of orcs and tributary armies from East and South, Denethor realizes that even if, by some miracle, Sauron is defeated, he looses the rule that he deems rightfully his, would then have to bow to his frenemy, and sit at his feet in his steward's chair. In the end, to Denethor, was better to burn than suffer that indignity. Theodan, on the other hand, goes out like a champ as a Third Age throwback to Fingolfin, both of them racing to meet their doom on white steeds with so much fire in their eyes and hearts that they are compared with Orome himself. One man embraced Estel before he met his end, the other denied it and that made all the difference in how they died and are remembered.
How come Aule's maiars are such good manipulators? Both Sauron and Saruman are portrayed as having great powers of persuasion. That's not what I would expect from someone as elemental as Aule.
To construct anything worth a maia's skills, you have to plan and prepare very carefully. I think that's where the aptitude comes from. Though we don't see very many maiar in much detail. Perhaps they are all capable of great manipulation, but as long as they stick to their mission (Melian, Gandalf, Radagast) they don't practice (much) manipulation.
Two' thoughts: language/linguistics and "speechcraft" (as opposed to, eg, poetry) falls under Aule's 'sphere of influence' (so do weaving, agriculture, and carving!) Also, I suspect that Maiar in general are capable of great *subtlety* - even good ones like Melian, Gandalf, etc. But since they use their cunning to uplift/protect others and are careful not to constrain their free will, it doesn't come across as manipulative.
I think they were both products of their background history. Many Stewards of Gondor had long been acting with the arrogance of Kings, while preventing the return of a real King. The Rohirrim Kings were more modest and less self-regarding, still grateful for the lands they had been granted from the stewards of Gondor. Aragorn, as King, legally made the gift permanent. edit: Probably by no accident, both Faramir and Eowyn brought those two dichotomies closer together. Faramir was quite content to just be a humble Steward to a King, and Eowyn would have made a good Queen in either realm.
Iʻve never thought about what Denethorʻs legacy would have been. I expect that Aragorn would have been kind about him. But I have to wonder what the people would say and what the historians would write. Or did the coming of the King make the people pretty much forget about Denethor? He wouldnʻt have liked that. I wonder if he would have preferred to see Gondor destroyed to seeing Aragorn take the throne?
It was striking to me how much Theodan and Denethor mirrored one another. As good as the movies are, I don't think they really portrayed this part of the story very well. I really like the point made here in that Denethor seemed to be in a much more advantageous position than Theodan did when we first see him. Considering how noble both Boromir and Faramir were, and the fact that Denethor had at his disposal all the written works of Gondor, I really expected a lot more from Denethor. In a way, Denethor lost the will to fight before the battle really begun.
Denethor acted exactly as Tolkien wrote him to act. He wasn't a real human who had agency and free will. He was a character who had a purpose put forth by Tolkien, so his author's expectations are all that matters.
@@rikk319 Well obviously, the written character is a written character, no gold stars for you. My point was that the two characters make very interesting contrast for how leaders should behave, that defeatism helps nobody but the foe. Theodan realized this, so won a glorious death for himself. Denethor lost himself in hopelessness, which led directly to his own self-destruction. If you can't see the agency in the characters, then that is a "you problem".
Denethor in the movie was hamstrung by the same drama manufacturing that resulted in Faramir being barely distinct from Boromir. Seemed unnecessary to me given that his character was going to self-delete anyway. We didn't need to be made to hate him.
You mean apart from this vid? 😅 ruclips.net/video/ZBpu1KVPxls/видео.html Considering Orc-culture per se (assuming for the sake of argument that it is, indeed, a real culture and not a mere "semblance" of it) would be a fascinating angle, actually. I'll put it on the list 😁
@@GirlNextGondorI was reading the Folio Society version of book six. In The Land of Shadow, an orc threatens to report another orc using its name and number. This tiny detail, implying Mordor's army uses serial numbers, spoke volumes to me. It speaks to Sauron's desire of order, but that, combined with the war weariness of many of the orcs, makes me think very much of Tolkien's WWI experience.
It is really the middle syllable of palantir which is stressed? Usually, of course we only read the word and so “say” it in our mind- however we so choose. But this video inspired me to say it out loud stressing each syllable alternately. To my ear the middle is by far the worst. In my mind I always stressed the first, which I most prefer, but the third does not sound too bad. Just, please, not the middle! Yuck.
To my understanding, in Quenya polysyllabic words usually have stress on penultimate syllable and to my knowledge palantír isn't covered by exceptions. So unfortunately for you, it is paLANtír. Or I have misread my Elvish grammar book
Thanks for the information. It is, indeed, disappointing. But - if that is the grammar, then you can’t argue with it. Oh well. (I still think it sounds bad and will say it PALantir in my mind). Thanks for the correction.
There's a stress indicator in 'palantír': The accent over the 'i', turning it into 'í'. That's where the stress should be. Edit: That sounds like I _know_, but I'm pretty sure my observation is wrong.
Hey there, GirlNextGondor, I can completely see that you love talking and discussing a lot about the lore of Middle-earth and everything surrounding that, and because of that I'm going to cut straight to the chase and explain what ideas I specifically have for you to see. I have this idea or these ideas where you and a bunch of other youtubers who are massive fans of the lore of The Lord of the Rings, and Middle-earth should all come together with the entire cast and crew of Sir Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy (2001-03), and when I mean the entire cast and crew I am so serious. The director, the directors of photography, the producers, the executive producers, the cinematographers, the film composer, the actors (including some of the actors behind the scenes such as Sir Christopher Lee, Sir Ian Holm and the other actors that are now dead, and this doesn't involve the famous actor Sir Ian McKellen since he isn't old enough yet), the script supervisors, the writers, the editors, the stunt supervisors, the food supervisors, the makeup artists, the production designers, the people who were involved with the songs In Dreams and May it Be, by Enya , Gollum's Song, by Emilíana Torrini, and Into the West, by Annie Lennox, the people who created the weapons, prosthetics, miniatures or as Jackson loves to call them the Big-atures and so much more. What I am wanting to happen with you, the other youtubers, and the cast and crew that was involved with Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy is for all of you to sit down in one of those stylish meeting rooms, and discuss all together why The Lord of the Rings is the Greatest Story Of All Time and nothing will ever come close to it not even Harry Potter, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean, Game of Thrones, House of a Dragon, The Witcher, The Chronicles of Narnia, and Amazon's The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. There I then thought that you guys can discuss all of your opinions on the J. R. R. Tolkien books, and the Peter Jackson movies, talk about the advantages and disadvantages that they have over and below each other, read all the books fully and analyze them and why they work so well, watch the theatrical and extended editions of the whole movies and analyze them and why they are perfect adaptations, explain the references and similarities that they have to The Holy Bible (such as the Christ figures Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn) and probably the film versions of it, Tolkien's World War 1 experiences at the Somme, his catholic and religious beliefs, and why nothing in general will ever come close in general. You and the other youtubers should also do this thing where you should also analyze all three parts of the story (Part One: The Fellowship of the Ring, Part Two: The Two Towers, and Part Three: The Return of the King) but after each part is over you will all take breaks and vote which youtuber should have a one on one interview with which member of the cast and crew of the trilogy, and then you will all go in separate rooms with a different cast and crew member, plan out what questions you all should ask, change cast and crew members with each break along with different questions, increase the lengths just like the increase in all three parts of The Lord of the Rings, and then when each break is over then talk about what answers that you all got for the interviews. Some of the youtubers that I thought of inviting to this should be @NerdoftheRings, @thefriendshiponion6189, @Jess_of_the_Shire, @MenoftheWest, @TheBrokenSword, @TolkienLorePodcast, @tolkienuntangled, @LoreOfTheRingsYT, @VoiceoftheRings, @TalesoftheRings, @TheOneRingNet, @CounciloftheRings, @TheoryoftheRings, @TolkienTree, @TheRedBook @MiddleEarthTheory, @lfwinesroad3399, @geekuniverse6172, @heartofahafling3142, @MemoryTroll, @timbotook6447, @EverythingInMiddleEarth, @TheTabletopAlliance, @MusicMOTW, @MacbethofGondor, @VoiceofGeekdom, @ThePhilosophersGames, @TolkienTube, @FellowshipofFans, @BeginningofDays, @GeekZoneMT, @Epic_Kingdom, @MiniExpBounder,, @DarthGandalfYT and so much more, you should also do this with many other youtubers who don't talk about The Lord of the Rings, but do mention that they are fans of it or at least talk about it such as @ColbertLateShow, @PilgrimsPass, @PaxTubeChannel, @RewiretheWest, @NerdCookies, @HelloFutureMe, @DorkLords, @flickfanatics7948, @thecluelessfangirl809, @LikeStoriesofOld, @HelloMellowXVI, @PopcornInBed, @thegoldman25 and @jedibrooks7235 for example (but not the ones that mention LOTR once and then focus on another film or novel franchise such as @KlaytonFioriti, or @AGamingBeaver), and you should all talk about your different ways on how you would all view this as being a masterpiece. By The Way you should share this with many of the other youtubers who love Middle-earth in general and should plan with them on how you could improve on this comment such as inviting so much more youtubers who love it, and that I didn't add on this comment earlier on, discussing this with Peter Jackson and the Tolkien family and their views on them since they aren't the very best of friends (and that fact that Christopher Tolkien, and Simon Tolkien didn't appreciate it), and should also do the same thing with Peter Jackson's The Hobbit film trilogy (2012-14) and doing the same thing that I explained earlier with LOTR, such as also discussing about the score, and the songs such as The Song of the Lonely Mountain (Extended Version) , by Neil Finn, I See Fire, by Ed Sheeran, and The Last Goodbye, by Billy Boyd, (and also discussing again what it was like for some of the cast members that are dead now such as Barry Humphries who played as the Great Goblin and again this does not involve Ian McKellen since he isn't dead) but also to mostly discuss why they weren't very good adaptations of the novel. Good luck out there @GirlNextGondor and please share, and improve on this with the other youtubers, and the entire cast and crew of The J. R. R. Tolkien and The Peter Jackson trilogy. The real reason for this also is to basically change many different peoples' opinions and views on this work of literature especially since it's the 20th Anniversary of these films, because not all Christians view it as a masterpiece, because I am a huge fan of LOTR too, because I myself have a Christian belief, and I have witnessed other Christians not viewing it as a masterpiece that tells the story of good vs evil, since it shown as something completely underrated since people on the internet want a lot of realism, when in reality it both invented the high fantasy genre, defined the fantasy genre, and it even made John Ronald Reuel Tolkien himself become the father of modern fantasy that is of course now shown in both the 20th Century with his own books, and the 21st Century with the Peter Jackson adaptations. But also because the movies in my opinion destroy a huge amount of the stuff that Hollywood mainly shows in their films specifically the modern movies that are made today, even if these films are maybe sometimes considered to be not as good as their original work by Tolkien (especially involving around Jackson's The Hobbit trilogy), or if they are even usually considered to be extremely Massive Hollywood, Blockbuster, Action & adventure movies, and have really epic and really well crafted moments in them such as the set pieces, visual effects, large-scale warfare, action, adventure, romance, comedy, and horror that was all managed to be put altogether in a fantasy setting, amazing, and driven character moments and really good moments of character development.
The content here, as always, is impressive, but I am compelled to say NO. You are pretending the story is real and that the characters had "agency", but this is not true. Tolkien tells HIS story as he chooses to make points, as HE sees fit. His characters are puppets. The parallelisms are of his making, the fates of Theoden and Denethor (I LOVED your anagram comment) are as he worked out in his cabeza and composed on paper, but yes, the story IS amazing and more. But the outcome was never in doubt.
Of course, in the sense that Tolkien invented the characters and decided what they would do - he's using them to show certain themes, they don't have literal primary-world agency. But one of the themes Tolkien *does* have a fondness for is fate/doom vs. individual choice. I think he's using the parallelism, not just as an end in itself, but to *highlight* his belief that humans have some ability to *choose* their end, and even in near-identical circumstances, personal decisions still matter.
If I were to criticize how Tolkien ordered things, it would have been that Imrahil was conveniently available to be the stand-in when Denethor and Faramir were out of action, with no implied jealousy or bad brother-in-law vibes. Seen from after the fact, Denethor's suicidal path was not really making a point. It was something that proud men can be led to... but that is all. He didn't have to go there to serve the rest of the plot, not unless the resulting forced job change of Beregond is a significant part of the history.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. When I read a great work of art (and who here would argue LOTR and the Histories are not?), two questions are always uppermost. How did the author make the sausage (sometimes it is not at all apparent), and what message (s) was he trying to convey, if any? We are told that JRRT just wanted to try his hand at a long, imaginary history, to tell a story that reflected what he’d learned in his scholarly pursuits and the lessons he’d received from a very full personal experience. That we’re still (by the tens of thousands) still discussing these works 60 years and more later tells how well he succeeded. I comment upon but rarely direct criticism regarding how Tolkien ordered and presented his material. Truth to tell, I’ve never considered possible friction between Imrahil (not one of my favorites) and the Steward clan, but have noted JRRT’s preference for nature over nurture. Those with the cleanest Numenorean blood lines come out better, it seems, just as do wizard pupils following the correct wizard. Denethor doesn’t like the Elves and listens to the siren songs of Sauron rather than Stormcrow’s caws. Theoden mended his ways but still ended up dead, if in noble fashion. You say JRRT was not really making a point with suicidal Denethor but relating a plausible chain of events, but it doesn’t feel that way to me. I can sense Tolkien moving the pieces -especially Denethor’s-, since this supposed brilliant and proud man turns his back on Elves, disregards the rangers despite knowing their genealogy, and mistrusts Gandalf while believing intelligence that comes by way of Sauron (that’s like listening to nothing but NPR for your news). Theoden is saved by Gandalf and Aragorn, while poor Denethor NEEDS to get it to make the story wrap up in more satisfactory fashion. Don’t get me wrong. No doubt I love LOTR nearly as much as you do, but I find the Hobbit scenes simple, affecting, natural, and artfully constructed but many of the scenes involving Elves and “noble” men are, to my taste, stilted and somewhat grating. I don’t know what that all means. @@josephfisher426
In the film, yes! In the book he returns to Meduseld knowing that if Aragorn doesn't bring back the horses he's loaned him, it's going to *ruin* his remaining credibility with Theoden -- which it does. Gandalf's the one who tells Theoden to let him out. "But first send for Eomer. Do I not guess rightly that you hold him prisoner, by the counsel of Grima, of him that all save you name the Wormtongue?" "It is true," said Theoden. "He had rebelled against my commands, and threatened death to Grima in my hall." (TTT, "The King of the Golden Hall")
You really have to admire Tolkien's artistry. He weaves the threads of his story so that it seems you never run out of details to spot or connections to make. The longer you study his work, the more intricate and impressive it seems.
31 times have I marched on Orodruin, and am taking my 8yo along for his first, and my 32nd, March on Erebor, and still something new occurs to me, as well as Lexi and the Tolkien Geek pointing out something I've either not articulated or even never considered.
The man was a genius.
@@ianshaw1486 Good luck on 32nd! That's about the age I was when my dad brought the family along on that trek.
@EriktheRed2023 Thanks 😊
I read it to my now 14 yo when he was 6, my now 12 yo when he was 7, and I started it with my 8 yo last year, but some life changes at work have...slowed progress. The elder 2 have now completed LotR on their own...to my delight and their mother's distress, declaring it superior to Harry Potter 😉 They, like myself, like both...but their mother has the opposite view.
I do need to finish the Hobbit with my 8 yo soon...I am feeling the itch to go through LotR anew.
I think the most mind blowing thing about this is the inverted parallel of Gandalf’s dealings in both kingdoms. I wouldn’t have even thought to look at that. 🤯
Wasn't even looking for a Gandalf-angle when I noticed how he retraces his steps, like he's getting a do-over for the pickles he found himself in as the Grey. I swear someone in the room could have *heard* the record-scratch sound of my train of thought derailing when I saw it 😂
I've read Lord of the Rings more times than I care to recall and had never seen the similarities between Denethor and Theoden until these last two videos. The layers to Tolkien's legendarium never cease to amaze me.
I knew they had some obvious things in common, but as I started to stack them up I couldn't get over how everything happens *in the same order* for them. The asynchronous storytelling makes it a little harder to spot, as does the difference in Merry-centric v Pippin-centric narration, but scraping those layers back I felt like I was looking at the same plot, but one told as a tragedy and the other as something like a heroic romance.
@@GirlNextGondor I can definitely see it now. You can also see their differences in a new light when compared to the similarity of their stories.
I'm glad I'm not the only one 😅
@@GirlNextGondor The King's name was originally going to be Theodren, but Tolkien decided that made the parallel too obvious. ;-) Great research and video!!
Slightly off topic but I love that literally the first thing Eomer does upon being released from an unjust imprisonment tell Hama to fetch his sword so that he can declare his fealty to Théoden, nicely shows that he understood it wasn't really Théoden's fault and that despite everything Grima said he was unwaveringly loyal.
He loved Theoden like a father, and Theodred like a brother, it made sense.
True confession...I had never perceived the now (thanks to you) obvious and deliberate parallel lives of Theoden and Denethor despite numerous readings. While I am truly embarrassed, my obvious lack of mental acuity makes me even more aware of my gratitude for this channel and its creator. Clearly, I stand in desperate need of your tutelage. Thank-you, Lexi!😕
I vaguely knew they had 'stuff' in common, but I also was sadly ignorant of how deep it went, and how seemingly-deliberate it was, until I started researching! Then I felt very silly for not having noticed it sooner😅 I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I absolutely love the way you analyse the text. This is my favourite Lord of the Rings lore channel.
I always thought that the deciding factor between the two was their pride, Theoden being more humble, accepted the help and advice of Gandalf. While Denethor trusting in his own stength. However I always believed that things would have been different had he not sent his last son to his death.
Another great GNG video! Always informative and fun! These 2 characters are a very interesting contrast… not quite Goofus and Gallant from “Highlights for Children” days of my youth … but somewhere on that spectrum 😅
"Theoden trusts his heirs🫂
Denethor calls his a wizard's pupil, threatening the semblance of unity upon which his soldiers' morale depends 😦🔥"
In my reading, I have come to the impression that Theodan had his courage "renewed" by Gandalf. Yet he still went to a hopeless-seeming battle at Helm's Deep and won, and then again on the Pelennor Fields where his attack saved the city of Minas Tirith from sack and destruction. But these were, basically, last-charge suicides and that Theodan did not understand that this first attack by Mordor, that nearly over-whelmed Gondor, was but a small part of Mordor's forces.
And as Tolkien himself said on hte use of the Palantir: "Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his defeat was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were no doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son." They were not in the same spot. Denethor had vastly better information and was watching his remaining son die in front of his eyes.
This over-whelming force in Mordor is why Gandalf counseled Aragorn and the other surviving leaders to attack Mordor. Just to give Frodo a slightly better chance of destroying the ring since there was no way the west would survive Mordor's next assault. Because, by arms, it was hopeless and arms is all that Denethor had by then.
Bless you Lexi
Casting Greater Restoration on you 💖
@@GirlNextGondor
*hugs* hope you feel better soon.
@@eliscanfield3913 Thank you
Mr. Eyeball, I do not know you, but I wish you the best and hope things start to look up. You are always welcome in this place of good lore and spicy memes.
Really like the comparison here. I see it touched on at a surface level often, but really like the thoroughness of this video.
My favourite video. Literally Aid from the provinces. Especially the last quote on making repeated decisions on what duty demand’s literally gave me chills. ❤❤❤ thank you for your work Lexi.
Glad you liked it! Thank you for all the kind comments you have been leaving. 🥰
@@GirlNextGondor my pleasure 🍀🍀. Keep doing the brilliant work sister ♥️♥️♥️.
Thanks, Lexi, for another deep dive into these characters. I always learn much from your videos...keep them coming!
I think to little weight is given to Denethor's deep insecurity and resultant underlying jealousy.
Many years before the War of the Ring, a young outland warrior (Aragorn incognito) offered service to Denethor's father. He was wildly successful and the rumour-mill suggested that he might be named Steward. But, Aragorn, to the delight of Denethor, had other roads to travel and Aragorn disappeared just before the death of Denethor's father.
So, despite his appearance of authority and power, I think that Denethor was a deeply insecure Ruling Steward, always reluctant to take advice.
Theoden was insecure in his own way. By the time that Gandalf frees him from Grima's/Saruman's enchantment, he regrets that he will be the last King of Rohan, ending the rule his people had had over the land (and the Subject Races (the Dunlendings)) for almost a thousand years...
The difference is that he chooses to answer the Call from Gondor and follow the sole possible honourable path open to him.
Denethor Surrenders...
I agree, I think the idea of Denethor living in the shadow of his father's preference for "Thorongil" explains... almost everything, from a psychological perspective, from his distrust of Gandalf to his relationship to his sons. It's interesting that Tolkien relegates almost all that information to the Appendices, even though it seems like such a key to his character.
I think Denethor and Theoden *both* realize that realistically, they have little hope (statistically and practically speaking, *no* hope) of actually withstanding Mordor. While I was researching, though, I was impressed by how much care they both take to address pragmatic concerns. Hirgon brings the summons to Theoden *while he's preparing to ride to Gondor anyway,* since everyone is aware that if Minas Tirith falls Rohan will be next. And one of the first things Theoden asks is whether there's going to be enough food in Minas Tirith for his riders, or if they need to carry some with them - he's *taking thought* for a future he has no reasonable hope of seeing.
@@GirlNextGondor I suppose it would be difficult to find a place to fit Denethor's backstory in, given that it's not directly part of the plot.
2:58 Hey ! Just passing by to say thank you for using my art here ;) Have a nice day !
Thank you so much for sharing your work! Really appreciate your Dark'n'Atmospheric Meduseld ♥
This is an excellent overview of the contrast between Théoden and Denethor, the best I have ever read or seen since I first read Lord of the Rings fifty years ago. Kudos, Girl Next Gondor!
Just tossing some algorithm bait. Great topic!
Many thanks! Hope you enjoy 😊
This time babe had to wake me up. Don't do night shift, kids.
Edit: lol @ "Gandalf's Uno Reverse Card"
Nice and tidy, may I point out that they had both lost their eldest, or only son. A tough challenge.
Denethor could not accept the possibility of a future where the Gondor he knew was ruled by anyone else but him regardless of the legacy that the Stewards would rule only until a true king emerged. It was his undoing. Gandalf could not reason with him but Minas Tirith would have likely fallen before any aid could come had Gandalf not temporarily taken charge. Théoden did not have Denethor's ego or his insecurities so he was able to break free of Grima/Saruman's lies with Gandalf's aid and, despite not surviving himself, make it possible for Rohan to survive.
Love this analysis. You deepen my understanding of books i love and i recommend your channel to everyone i talk to about Tolkien!!
I think that their responses to Aragorn are quite telling. They both meet him in their youth and their final year. Both have different experiences with him, and therefore, differing opinions on his destiny.
I deeply admire your dedication and passionate narration from Croatiasimple 💜💜💜 God bless you and your work mylady 💜💙💚
I loved it! Such interesting characters and your take is always so good ❤
Glad you enjoyed it! I always knew they were comparable characters but I really enjoyed the chance to examine their similarities in depth.
Nice work thanks
As always, you are the best GNG. Great comparison.
Sorry I'm not the same as always, dear Lexi. If you know, you know, my friend.
6:14 What a painting! Regarding Denethor's demise, the heart can take only that much. When the heart gives in, you either become iron or lose all hope. My heart died yesterday and today and will never heal. But my hope is now as smoldering as the inferno of hell and my anger is iron from an abyss of anger. For Denethor, it was too much.
The most important point is Denethor is using the Palantir, but still afraid. Sauron has them, in fact corrupting him and Sauruman through them is the key to his whole campaign bereft of his ring. Denethor is bewitched or accursed. It's the temptation to see the enemies designs and then he has you. You panic or become what you hate. Theoden rides
When Gandalf rides to Isengard, Sauruman has the secret key. So does Denethor. Palantir. They know Sauron so they think they can own him, that is they think they have the advantage. But Theoden has nothing but his Rohirrim, and he never thinks he has the advantage.
I think there's definitely something to the fact that Rohan is the less powerful, less "advanced" realm; it seems like it would contribute to the humility needed to come to terms with just how limited your scope for action is.
Interesting, as always. 🙂
I wonder if Tolkien overtly intended their arcs to parallel so closely or if it was a subconscious thing from a man who was so heavily immersed in mythology. I lean towards the former, mind; dude went full tilt in his world building.
Thanks, Lexi! Watching now! 🐑
At the end, Denethor's mind is most clearly expressed when he answers Gandalf's question of what he wants: “I would have things as they were in all the days of my life...and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard’s pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.”
Thanks Lexi
We cannot choose hardly any of our circumstances. Only what we do with them.
GNG mentions that final flare of the fire before death, and it brought to mind Umslopogaas' glorious stand at the stairs in Haggard's "Allan Quatermain". The night before, Umslpogaas ran a hundred miles alongside a horse. Then he gets a fulsome fifteen minutes of sleep:
"Then I woke Umslopogaas. The great man rose, stretched himself, and swung Inkosi-kaas [his axe] round his head.
‘It is well,’ he said. ‘I feel as a young man once more. My strength has come back to me, ay, even as a lamp flares up before it dies. Fear not, I shall fight a good fight; the wine and the sleep have put a new heart into me."
No spoilers, but the name of the chapter is "How Umslpogaas Held the Stair". It is glorious.
It is never spelled out directly, but I suspect that Denethor has used the Palantir to spy out Aragorn. As soon as he saw Aragorn's face, he recognized him as his rival of old. With this awareness and the knowledge gleaned from viewing Sauron's multitude of orcs and tributary armies from East and South, Denethor realizes that even if, by some miracle, Sauron is defeated, he looses the rule that he deems rightfully his, would then have to bow to his frenemy, and sit at his feet in his steward's chair. In the end, to Denethor, was better to burn than suffer that indignity. Theodan, on the other hand, goes out like a champ as a Third Age throwback to Fingolfin, both of them racing to meet their doom on white steeds with so much fire in their eyes and hearts that they are compared with Orome himself. One man embraced Estel before he met his end, the other denied it and that made all the difference in how they died and are remembered.
I think there's an earlier draft in which it's explicit that Denethor recognizes Aragorn. IIRC, Lexi has spoken about that.
Great video keep up the good work
How come Aule's maiars are such good manipulators? Both Sauron and Saruman are portrayed as having great powers of persuasion. That's not what I would expect from someone as elemental as Aule.
Aule is the master of crafts, thus it makes sense that his underlings would be crafty.
To construct anything worth a maia's skills, you have to plan and prepare very carefully. I think that's where the aptitude comes from.
Though we don't see very many maiar in much detail. Perhaps they are all capable of great manipulation, but as long as they stick to their mission (Melian, Gandalf, Radagast) they don't practice (much) manipulation.
Two' thoughts: language/linguistics and "speechcraft" (as opposed to, eg, poetry) falls under Aule's 'sphere of influence' (so do weaving, agriculture, and carving!)
Also, I suspect that Maiar in general are capable of great *subtlety* - even good ones like Melian, Gandalf, etc. But since they use their cunning to uplift/protect others and are careful not to constrain their free will, it doesn't come across as manipulative.
And let’s not forget Fëanor! But “craft” for the Eldar is not just material making, but skill and, well, craftiness.
Aule is not as singleminded as the Greek/Roman approximate "smith god" equivalents. He made the Dwarves without consulting anyone else.
I think they were both products of their background history.
Many Stewards of Gondor had long been acting with the arrogance of Kings, while preventing the return of a real King.
The Rohirrim Kings were more modest and less self-regarding, still grateful for the lands they had been granted from the stewards of Gondor. Aragorn, as King, legally made the gift permanent.
edit:
Probably by no accident, both Faramir and Eowyn brought those two dichotomies closer together. Faramir was quite content to just be a humble Steward to a King, and Eowyn would have made a good Queen in either realm.
This was great stuff. Repeated decisions, that was the most important thing. As To,keen saw it we have a choice, always and often. Thanks GNG.
'Always and often' - well put, I think that's exactly what he was getting at. Glad you enjoyed!
Best Tolkein channel
Iʻve never thought about what Denethorʻs legacy would have been. I expect that Aragorn would have been kind about him. But I have to wonder what the people would say and what the historians would write. Or did the coming of the King make the people pretty much forget about Denethor? He wouldnʻt have liked that. I wonder if he would have preferred to see Gondor destroyed to seeing Aragorn take the throne?
I suspect the answer to the last question is 'yes,' considering the state of mind he'd reached at the time of his death.
Thanks!
Thank you, Rico!!
From one Feanorian to another, the picture at the end of the video is pure gold hahahahahahahahahah
🔥 😈
Yes, please, more aid from the provinces! I shall stand and cheer them at the gates as they come!
Hopefully they won't all be preoccupied defending against the Corsair raids of offline obstructions and diversions!
I guess Sauron is better at messing up people with magic than Saruman.
It was striking to me how much Theodan and Denethor mirrored one another. As good as the movies are, I don't think they really portrayed this part of the story very well. I really like the point made here in that Denethor seemed to be in a much more advantageous position than Theodan did when we first see him. Considering how noble both Boromir and Faramir were, and the fact that Denethor had at his disposal all the written works of Gondor, I really expected a lot more from Denethor. In a way, Denethor lost the will to fight before the battle really begun.
Denethor acted exactly as Tolkien wrote him to act. He wasn't a real human who had agency and free will. He was a character who had a purpose put forth by Tolkien, so his author's expectations are all that matters.
@@rikk319 Well obviously, the written character is a written character, no gold stars for you. My point was that the two characters make very interesting contrast for how leaders should behave, that defeatism helps nobody but the foe. Theodan realized this, so won a glorious death for himself. Denethor lost himself in hopelessness, which led directly to his own self-destruction.
If you can't see the agency in the characters, then that is a "you problem".
Denethor in the movie was hamstrung by the same drama manufacturing that resulted in Faramir being barely distinct from Boromir. Seemed unnecessary to me given that his character was going to self-delete anyway. We didn't need to be made to hate him.
😊❤
Consistently some of the best Middle Earth commentary available. When will you bend your considerable powers toward the orcs and their culture?
You mean apart from this vid? 😅
ruclips.net/video/ZBpu1KVPxls/видео.html
Considering Orc-culture per se (assuming for the sake of argument that it is, indeed, a real culture and not a mere "semblance" of it) would be a fascinating angle, actually. I'll put it on the list 😁
@@GirlNextGondorI was reading the Folio Society version of book six. In The Land of Shadow, an orc threatens to report another orc using its name and number. This tiny detail, implying Mordor's army uses serial numbers, spoke volumes to me. It speaks to Sauron's desire of order, but that, combined with the war weariness of many of the orcs, makes me think very much of Tolkien's WWI experience.
Worf from Star Trek?
⏰️⏰️⏰️
It is really the middle syllable of palantir which is stressed? Usually, of course we only read the word and so “say” it in our mind- however we so choose. But this video inspired me to say it out loud stressing each syllable alternately. To my ear the middle is by far the worst. In my mind I always stressed the first, which I most prefer, but the third does not sound too bad. Just, please, not the middle! Yuck.
To my understanding, in Quenya polysyllabic words usually have stress on penultimate syllable and to my knowledge palantír isn't covered by exceptions.
So unfortunately for you, it is paLANtír. Or I have misread my Elvish grammar book
Thanks for the information. It is, indeed, disappointing. But - if that is the grammar, then you can’t argue with it. Oh well. (I still think it sounds bad and will say it PALantir in my mind). Thanks for the correction.
FWIW I prefer PALantir too, but after years of saying it that way, someone corrected me 😅
Well, after today that makes two of us. 😄
Really, really love your videos. In my opinion the best Tolkien content on RUclips.
There's a stress indicator in 'palantír': The accent over the 'i', turning it into 'í'. That's where the stress should be.
Edit: That sounds like I _know_, but I'm pretty sure my observation is wrong.
Hey there, GirlNextGondor, I can completely see that you love talking and discussing a lot about the lore of Middle-earth and everything surrounding that, and because of that I'm going to cut straight to the chase and explain what ideas I specifically have for you to see. I have this idea or these ideas where you and a bunch of other youtubers who are massive fans of the lore of The Lord of the Rings, and Middle-earth should all come together with the entire cast and crew of Sir Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy (2001-03), and when I mean the entire cast and crew I am so serious. The director, the directors of photography, the producers, the executive producers, the cinematographers, the film composer, the actors (including some of the actors behind the scenes such as Sir Christopher Lee, Sir Ian Holm and the other actors that are now dead, and this doesn't involve the famous actor Sir Ian McKellen since he isn't old enough yet), the script supervisors, the writers, the editors, the stunt supervisors, the food supervisors, the makeup artists, the production designers, the people who were involved with the songs In Dreams and May it Be, by Enya , Gollum's Song, by Emilíana Torrini, and Into the West, by Annie Lennox, the people who created the weapons, prosthetics, miniatures or as Jackson loves to call them the Big-atures and so much more. What I am wanting to happen with you, the other youtubers, and the cast and crew that was involved with Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy is for all of you to sit down in one of those stylish meeting rooms, and discuss all together why The Lord of the Rings is the Greatest Story Of All Time and nothing will ever come close to it not even Harry Potter, Star Wars, Pirates of the Caribbean, Game of Thrones, House of a Dragon, The Witcher, The Chronicles of Narnia, and Amazon's The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power. There I then thought that you guys can discuss all of your opinions on the J. R. R. Tolkien books, and the Peter Jackson movies, talk about the advantages and disadvantages that they have over and below each other, read all the books fully and analyze them and why they work so well, watch the theatrical and extended editions of the whole movies and analyze them and why they are perfect adaptations, explain the references and similarities that they have to The Holy Bible (such as the Christ figures Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn) and probably the film versions of it, Tolkien's World War 1 experiences at the Somme, his catholic and religious beliefs, and why nothing in general will ever come close in general. You and the other youtubers should also do this thing where you should also analyze all three parts of the story (Part One: The Fellowship of the Ring, Part Two: The Two Towers, and Part Three: The Return of the King) but after each part is over you will all take breaks and vote which youtuber should have a one on one interview with which member of the cast and crew of the trilogy, and then you will all go in separate rooms with a different cast and crew member, plan out what questions you all should ask, change cast and crew members with each break along with different questions, increase the lengths just like the increase in all three parts of The Lord of the Rings, and then when each break is over then talk about what answers that you all got for the interviews. Some of the youtubers that I thought of inviting to this should be @NerdoftheRings, @thefriendshiponion6189, @Jess_of_the_Shire, @MenoftheWest, @TheBrokenSword, @TolkienLorePodcast, @tolkienuntangled, @LoreOfTheRingsYT, @VoiceoftheRings, @TalesoftheRings, @TheOneRingNet, @CounciloftheRings, @TheoryoftheRings, @TolkienTree, @TheRedBook @MiddleEarthTheory, @lfwinesroad3399, @geekuniverse6172, @heartofahafling3142, @MemoryTroll, @timbotook6447, @EverythingInMiddleEarth, @TheTabletopAlliance, @MusicMOTW, @MacbethofGondor, @VoiceofGeekdom, @ThePhilosophersGames, @TolkienTube, @FellowshipofFans, @BeginningofDays, @GeekZoneMT, @Epic_Kingdom, @MiniExpBounder,, @DarthGandalfYT and so much more, you should also do this with many other youtubers who don't talk about The Lord of the Rings, but do mention that they are fans of it or at least talk about it such as @ColbertLateShow, @PilgrimsPass, @PaxTubeChannel, @RewiretheWest, @NerdCookies, @HelloFutureMe, @DorkLords, @flickfanatics7948, @thecluelessfangirl809, @LikeStoriesofOld, @HelloMellowXVI, @PopcornInBed, @thegoldman25 and @jedibrooks7235 for example (but not the ones that mention LOTR once and then focus on another film or novel franchise such as @KlaytonFioriti, or @AGamingBeaver), and you should all talk about your different ways on how you would all view this as being a masterpiece. By The Way you should share this with many of the other youtubers who love Middle-earth in general and should plan with them on how you could improve on this comment such as inviting so much more youtubers who love it, and that I didn't add on this comment earlier on, discussing this with Peter Jackson and the Tolkien family and their views on them since they aren't the very best of friends (and that fact that Christopher Tolkien, and Simon Tolkien didn't appreciate it), and should also do the same thing with Peter Jackson's The Hobbit film trilogy (2012-14) and doing the same thing that I explained earlier with LOTR, such as also discussing about the score, and the songs such as The Song of the Lonely Mountain (Extended Version) , by Neil Finn, I See Fire, by Ed Sheeran, and The Last Goodbye, by Billy Boyd, (and also discussing again what it was like for some of the cast members that are dead now such as Barry Humphries who played as the Great Goblin and again this does not involve Ian McKellen since he isn't dead) but also to mostly discuss why they weren't very good adaptations of the novel. Good luck out there @GirlNextGondor and please share, and improve on this with the other youtubers, and the entire cast and crew of The J. R. R. Tolkien and The Peter Jackson trilogy. The real reason for this also is to basically change many different peoples' opinions and views on this work of literature especially since it's the 20th Anniversary of these films, because not all Christians view it as a masterpiece, because I am a huge fan of LOTR too, because I myself have a Christian belief, and I have witnessed other Christians not viewing it as a masterpiece that tells the story of good vs evil, since it shown as something completely underrated since people on the internet want a lot of realism, when in reality it both invented the high fantasy genre, defined the fantasy genre, and it even made John Ronald Reuel Tolkien himself become the father of modern fantasy that is of course now shown in both the 20th Century with his own books, and the 21st Century with the Peter Jackson adaptations. But also because the movies in my opinion destroy a huge amount of the stuff that Hollywood mainly shows in their films specifically the modern movies that are made today, even if these films are maybe sometimes considered to be not as good as their original work by Tolkien (especially involving around Jackson's The Hobbit trilogy), or if they are even usually considered to be extremely Massive Hollywood, Blockbuster, Action & adventure movies, and have really epic and really well crafted moments in them such as the set pieces, visual effects, large-scale warfare, action, adventure, romance, comedy, and horror that was all managed to be put altogether in a fantasy setting, amazing, and driven character moments and really good moments of character development.
The content here, as always, is impressive, but I am compelled to say NO. You are pretending the story is real and that the characters had "agency", but this is not true. Tolkien tells HIS story as he chooses to make points, as HE sees fit. His characters are puppets. The parallelisms are of his making, the fates of Theoden and Denethor (I LOVED your anagram comment) are as he worked out in his cabeza and composed on paper, but yes, the story IS amazing and more. But the outcome was never in doubt.
Of course, in the sense that Tolkien invented the characters and decided what they would do - he's using them to show certain themes, they don't have literal primary-world agency. But one of the themes Tolkien *does* have a fondness for is fate/doom vs. individual choice. I think he's using the parallelism, not just as an end in itself, but to *highlight* his belief that humans have some ability to *choose* their end, and even in near-identical circumstances, personal decisions still matter.
If I were to criticize how Tolkien ordered things, it would have been that Imrahil was conveniently available to be the stand-in when Denethor and Faramir were out of action, with no implied jealousy or bad brother-in-law vibes.
Seen from after the fact, Denethor's suicidal path was not really making a point. It was something that proud men can be led to... but that is all. He didn't have to go there to serve the rest of the plot, not unless the resulting forced job change of Beregond is a significant part of the history.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. When I read a great work of art (and who here would argue LOTR and the Histories are not?), two questions are always uppermost. How did the author make the sausage (sometimes it is not at all apparent), and what message (s) was he trying to convey, if any? We are told that JRRT just wanted to try his hand at a long, imaginary history, to tell a story that reflected what he’d learned in his scholarly pursuits and the lessons he’d received from a very full personal experience. That we’re still (by the tens of thousands) still discussing these works 60 years and more later tells how well he succeeded.
I comment upon but rarely direct criticism regarding how Tolkien ordered and presented his material. Truth to tell, I’ve never considered possible friction between Imrahil (not one of my favorites) and the Steward clan, but have noted JRRT’s preference for nature over nurture. Those with the cleanest Numenorean blood lines come out better, it seems, just as do wizard pupils following the correct wizard. Denethor doesn’t like the Elves and listens to the siren songs of Sauron rather than Stormcrow’s caws. Theoden mended his ways but still ended up dead, if in noble fashion.
You say JRRT was not really making a point with suicidal Denethor but relating a plausible chain of events, but it doesn’t feel that way to me. I can sense Tolkien moving the pieces -especially Denethor’s-, since this supposed brilliant and proud man turns his back on Elves, disregards the rangers despite knowing their genealogy, and mistrusts Gandalf while believing intelligence that comes by way of Sauron (that’s like listening to nothing but NPR for your news). Theoden is saved by Gandalf and Aragorn, while poor Denethor NEEDS to get it to make the story wrap up in more satisfactory fashion.
Don’t get me wrong. No doubt I love LOTR nearly as much as you do, but I find the Hobbit scenes simple, affecting, natural, and artfully constructed but many of the scenes involving Elves and “noble” men are, to my taste, stilted and somewhat grating. I don’t know what that all means.
@@josephfisher426
Theoden didn't imprison Eomer - he exiled him...
In the film, yes!
In the book he returns to Meduseld knowing that if Aragorn doesn't bring back the horses he's loaned him, it's going to *ruin* his remaining credibility with Theoden -- which it does. Gandalf's the one who tells Theoden to let him out.
"But first send for Eomer. Do I not guess rightly that you hold him prisoner, by the counsel of Grima, of him that all save you name the Wormtongue?"
"It is true," said Theoden. "He had rebelled against my commands, and threatened death to Grima in my hall." (TTT, "The King of the Golden Hall")