Breathing; a common yet overlooked method of cheating when it comes to bro beat sabering involving taking a breath in order to oxygenate the cheater's muscles, which artifically boosts the cheater's score. Avoid this tecnique whenever possible.
As an outsider this is actually how I felt watching this video. This seems like very personal gripes with other peoples playstyles, while asserting authority over the game. Very 2004 era of backwards thinking making this many external rules for a game.
I'm a total newcomer when it comes to Beat Saber, but barely a minute into this video and I'm absolutely amazed at the production quality on display. Fantastic work, this really is something special!
This is one of the best beat saber videos I have ever seen. Bravo Deathgamer. The fact that everything in this was hand made is even better. Amazing video.
W Video, honestly for a casual player like me, your explanations of literally everything was easy to learn and understand. Very well edited visually too
Great video! Dude, you may have become one of my favorite Beat Saber content creators, even though I've never touched challenge or interacted with its community. The editing is on a good level, just like showcasing and the script. I really hope you won't abandon this hobby and will continue growing in this direction, cause I'd like to see more non-challenge videos in the future (like interviews, history of some events and etc.). Thank you for your contribution to this community, seriously. Don't know about the others, but I appreciate it very much.
Awesome video, everything is explained in good detail and I hope this gives people who are relatively new to challenge (and just players in general) a better understanding of how all of these work and what to not do! also I appreciate the shoutout in the description 🙏
Calling a different controller grip cheating, and also aiming for funny hitboxes cheating, is actually concerningly authoritarian behavior. I'm a complete outsider but I've never seen a videogame have this many external rules you have to conform to to be considered valid. Actually most other communities wouldn't ban anything on here save maybe pausing.
EDIT: Reading this comment after a few hours, I realise I've worded in a way that comes off as overly critical. I wanted to clarify that I think this video is fantastic. It's very well worded, it has measured and well researched takes, and it clearly comes from a place of clear understanding of the issues treated. The following comment was more a way to add clarification for the viewers about the often misused term "cheating", including some useful definitions that I think better enclose the applicability of the term. I don't think the video misuses the term AT ALL. I'm leaving the original comment unedited. --- Great video, however I think it lacks some serious clarification on the meaning of cheating, and I think without this clarification the video comes off as overly pretentious, as if you're putting yourself personally in the position of deciding what is and isn't cheating, which of course isn't your intention. So let me say this more clearly: YOU are not the one deciding what is and isn't cheating. The definition, as I'm about to explain, is SOLELY down to the ruleset of competition. The very concept of cheating arises when rules are established for a competition. When these rules are set, a competitor who breaks them is cheating. This means that cheating can't exist unless the competitor is engaged in an environment where rules define a playing field. Within this definition, cheating DOES NOT EQUAL TO giving yourself an advantage over your competitors. That alone does not satisfy the definition. As an example, pausing. In the video, you rightfully note the difference between the ranked and challenge community when it comes to the definition of pausing as cheating. The reason why pausing is cheating in challenge while it isn't on ranked is NOT because it gives an unfair advantage in challenge and it doesn't in ranked. Pausing objectively helps with stamina in both environments. The reason why pausing is considered cheating in high challenge and not ranked is ONLY due to how the rules of the competition have been laid out. The two communities made different choices, and chose to play by different rulesets. This IS partially due to how effective pausing can be in high challenge, but the reason why it's cheating is ONLY because that's how the rules have been laid out. I often say that "pausing is cheating", in every environment: I only say it because if it were for me, pausing would be banned on ranked as well, BUT I'm not the arbiter of the competition, and so I have no right to choose what is and isn't allowed. As long as pausing is allowed, it is NOT cheating. Does it give people who pause an advantage over people who don't? ABSOLUTELY, but since it's in the rules, that's not cheating. In a sense, you could watch it the other way around: it's people who don't pause who are giving themselves additional restrictions over the standard competition. They are giving themselves a disadvantage, not the other way around. I repeat, because this concept is truly important: RULES determine what's cheating and what isn't, NOT advantage. There are tons of examples of things that give a clear advantage that are widely considered not cheating: Custom sabers, JD fixer, static/modded lighting, hitscore visualisers, custom notes. There are also tons of examples of things that are usually allowed that are, for example, banned in most tournaments: Pausing, song chart visualisers, accuracy dot notes, slice visualisers. And then, of course, as you mention with a note at the beginning of the video, there is the scenario where you're not competing, and you're just playing the game to have fun on your own. In this scenario, the very idea of cheating is meaningless. If you are not competing with anybody, you are laying the rules for yourself, and you effectively can't cheat. By all means, change your NJS to your heart content at that point, modify your game with cheat engine. If you're not competing, nothing is cheating. It's like cheats in singleplayer. To drive this point home one last time: CHEATING ONLY EXISTS WHEN RULES ARE ESTABLISHED. RULES ARE NOT MADE BY INDIVIDUALS, THEY ARE MADE BY THE COMMUNITY WHO IS COMPETING. DOING THINGS THAT GIVE YOU AN ADVANTAGE DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN CHEATING. YOU CHEAT ONLY WHEN YOU BREAK THE ESTABLISHED RULES OF A COMPETITION.
That is entirely true. As you mentioned, it wasn't my intention to lay out directly what's cheating out of "my perspective" and what's not. Going to the pausing part of my video, I do realize that my wording, after explaining the different communities, might've been a bit unfortunate. I should've made it clear that the following part about the 3-4 wide walls are only applying to the challenge community. I don't wanna speak for the ranked community in any way, though I'm sorry if that might've gotten over a bit wrong. While I agree with your point about the definition of what's considered cheating, I think for more casual player's (or EVEN player's INSIDE the community) not being able to judge what's good or bad, its hard for them to be able to tell apart what would be considered cheating OR just a "small advantage". I think that top-players or those involved in a tournament or watching one, are way more aware of the game and can better tell apart whats ""cheating"" or not, or will be aware of the rules given by the tournament or general competition. The reason I used cheating in some of my statements, was for techniques that are considered banned or very unfair for the challenge community, sorry if that wasn't clear! I do think my use of the word "cheating" was unfavourable at some topics, since that's straight up saying something would be banned or not, which wasn't my intention, if it did came over that I was speaking for BOTH communities. Most of the time I wanted to talk from the standpoint of the challenge community, though I don't remember I was saying something is specifically cheating in the ranked community. The statements I put in the name of the challenge community of the topics mentioned in the video, are representing the opinion of the challenge community on these techniques/topics, if not even the RULES that preexist. The only "controversial" topic being the palm-grip part, though it was very important to make aware of it after top players have complained about it. I don't think that I was acting on my own when covering each topics at all, just to make that clear for you! There's no real "guide" to any of these mentioned topics in the challenge community, nor ranked community (a lot of those topics are irrelevant to a certain degree for ranked) and new people might struggle to understand the views from the top challenge or general players, because there's no given explanation to any of those techniques! It is correct that I should've made this point more clear in the video or description. I will soon include a note in the description of the video stating the point about cheating and that it always depends on the rules given by the competition what's considered "cheating" or not. Also including the fact that I was meant to represent the opinion of the challenge community in the majority of the statements, I think that's where it might've gotten over a bit wrong. I hope you understand this wasn't an easy video to make, since every topic mentioned can be analysed/broken-down way way further, than it is in the video. My goal was to explain everything very clearly, even for "non top players" and give an overview of everything. It's hard to give a statement about each given topic, without enraging one or another. Thank you!
@@tahirssnydersfactory All you said in the video was very clear, very well worded, and 100% informative for both old and new players approaching the challenge side of the game. I don't want my comment to sound overly critical, I think the video is fantastic. Infact, I thought of my comment more directed to the viewers rather than yourself. It's clear you have well in mind what cheating is, when the term is applicable and when it isn't. I wanted to specify it in this case since the term is often used kind of inappropriately when describing things that are advantageous but not against defined rules. Again, I apologise if my comment sounded critical: I only wanted to be clear on this aspect of definition. The video is fantastic, tremendous job. Edit: Reading my original comment again it definitely reads more critical than I envisioned it. I should avoid writing early in the morning. I'm not editing it for the sake of accountability, but yeah, my bad on that.
9:28 I would just like to apologize for my lapse in judgement. I am one of the content cubes on staff in CC. I will take full responsibility for the play being uploaded as it was me who accepted the play. At the time I was neither involved in the challenge scene as well as being a very new content cube. These attributes do not excuse my actions and I will never remember the flame I got for that videos release. I thought that vibro pass on a faster song modifier was insanely impressive and it never occurred to me that the play was cheesed. I hope we can move on as a community together, forgiving my devastating actions towards the beat saber community as well as the reputation of CC as an organization. I am sorry for any disrespect I might have given to the truly talented players by uploading such a cheesed score. On a final note, please do not blame CC for their ignorance in this event, rather, blame me for my horrific sense of vibro and cheese back then. I am truly sorry
I am not a high-level beatsaber player so if I’m missing information let me know but the debate over palm grip is rather silly. It is just an optimized way to use the tools given to you. Imagine telling sprinters that they can’t run on their toes because it gives an advantage to them over people who run with their full feet touching the ground. One is simply just worse form over the other. I think it mainly comes from the amount of time a certain competition has been around for since these new methods seems like “cheating” because it gives you an immediate advantage. I’d argue that feeling comes with innovation. Whenever a new Strat is developed it feels really good to use since it’s the first time you’re trying something. But everyone can replicate it and doesn’t inherently break how the game works so how would it be cheating? I think how they turned down the difficulty of the difficult levels is valid though but removal of palm grip would be uncalled for
he didnt say it is cheating, he was highlighting the reason it makes jumps easier and the advantage it has over default grip because of the way ‘swinging’ (wiggling your fingers) with it works, since its a somewhat contraversial topic
@@radiate2710his offered solution to disallow it from the challenge community did seem to paint the technique as cheating, though. I agree its not cheating.
I do understand it might be confusing for someone casual in the game to understand the impact that palm grip has on top level jump-vibro maps. I mentioned that even though palm gives you an advantage, in ALMOST all cases it isn't considered cheating or unfair in front of other players. The niche use case of palm grip inside of top level jump-vibro maps is however giving you a way bigger advantage, than players who play on default. We talk about speed's of 600-800bpm, speed's which a casual or most top players will NOT reach anyway. Therefore I didn't call the grip itself cheating considering most maps that exist in the game, though in the niche scenario of those extreme maps, where someone can take the disadvantage of extreme instability while still being able to hit the notes, it gives you a way bigger advantage. I should've put more weight on the fact I'm talking about very high top level maps. I hope this helps!
@@tahirssnydersfactory ah, thanks for a response! The clarification did help. I do see how palm grip would give a significant advantage in vibro maps, however is it a problem if everyone in theory has the ability to do palm grip so long as they have the time to master it? Like it is a niche skill as you said but if someone takes the time to perfect it should they be punished for that?
@@nahnvm8493 That's the issue. In comparison to playing on default or similar grips, "mastering" palm grip for a player of higher skill (around level 25) is very quickly and easily achievable (given that you have the ability to stick your hand physically through the controller ring without it falling off). The issue comes that most "progression" in jump-vibro from levels 26 to 30, which transitions from maps below 600bpm to those of 600-800bpm, is being entirely skipped by switching grips once you reached this skill gap. Palm grip has been accepted and been not given any attention for the past 2 years, until this year, where way more people have seen the advantage given by the grip and 90% of new players joining the category are ONLY good on speed maps on palm grip. Take the example with Devilcat, who's included in the video, he was able to skip these levels in around a week! Those levels usually taking players months, if not an entire year to master. The same pattern is seen with other players who have improved in the category because of this grip. Most players are way worse on those maps when playing on default, which is not the case the other way around. Keep in mind again that as I said, this only applies to the niche of high level jump-vibro maps of this difficulty range, beside that palm grip is completely fine!
If a pattern is designated to be hit the mapper intends but you reset by swinging normal again/hitting it the wrong way that makes it easier, that’s resetting, and defeats the whole purpose of both palmup tech stream maps or tech maps.
Really its not cheating. This creator was quite liberal in calling things cheating. Some of these, including and especially resetting, is perfectly normal tech that everyone can learn that has both benefits and tradeoffs.
ASW is not on every headset, its specifically a tech on quest/rift headsets with meta software Other headsets might have a similar tech but it will have a different name For example, if I play with Q3 via steam link I will not have any ASW type tech
Why would resetting be cheating? Sure it may make the map easier but still. It would be an advantage if it took a lot of skill to pull off, like the cheesing, or exploiting the game mechanics, like moving off the platform. Resetting doesn't fit into either of those categories. Anyone can do it with some practice but not as much as the other forms of cheating described.
13:59 unless something changed (haven't kept up with the game in a couple years) the note jump animation does not have any easing to it, they always move at a constant speed. the reason it's slower if you step forward is that a note's movement is achieved by linearly interpolating from its spawn position (the jump distance) to the player (NOT the world origin). thus, there can be more or less distance to travel over the same period of time based on where you are in your play space, meaning variable speed. beat games could probably fix this by making the note spawn position relative to the player instead of absolute like it currently is. in this sense, the NJS actually doesn't directly set the speed of notes, it is only used in calculating the jump distance, which then determines the actual speed of the note in the moment and is prone to exploitation lol
There are a couple of examples of when hilt cheesing or other cheese methods are viable in challenge.. For example, in RoadmanReginalds map "Hypnotic Data V2". Early on in the level there is a very odd stream pattern which he intended for you to cheese, however it is possible to hit normally, as in Sabrefans replay.. Most shitpost levels you are allowed to cheese to a certain extent. As its a mesh of many different types of levels such as Tech, Vibro/Speed, and Streams.
for the swingbug, it feels like a feature like with things like mouse sensitivity except its for the tracking, yes u can make movement faster ingame but irl it require a Lot more precision that most players maybe dont have, idk for the fix u say, 90hz feels a bit high, am sure a lot of low end players dont have a pc powerful enough or even have a headset too old for that (tho personally, for any fast action and rythm game, I can live without at least 120 or 144fps, tho I guess its fair as players invested enough to be in the high end usually have better hardware than entry, nyalso idk anyone who would be crazy enough to try the fast songs at a low fps, like, its probably not even physically possible (I say that from the point of view of a pc gamer that has been using a 144hz screen for half a decade and find games at 60fps to be unplayable)
I find a lot of these so-called cheat/cheese stuff detrimental to the development/evolution of mapping, because in theory, by holding players accountable for cheesing/cheating, allow mappers to not have the need to make harder/more interesting maps to test/challenge players to overcome them. When ScoreSaber limits its rank map bpm to 350 during a time when speed maps are sprouting out like daisies and started to become one note, the bpm limitation allow/force mappers to "get creative" if they want their maps to achieve higher difficulty standards and/or to give players pause(no pun intended) when encountering their maps. Stagnation signifies the beginning of the end of a game, and it is not something I wish to see in a foreseeable future.
Does the word 'cheating' not imply like, a competitive ruleset that someone might be breaking in order to win a competition? Nice suggestions for what that ruleset might be, should competition ever arise.
@@hendomas7435 in most cases it isnt, its only not allowed in like certain tech maps and stuff like Display/Avoid/Fever where the whole map is palm ups and stuff
@@AndusBS As someone outside the beat saber community, that just seems like a bad map. If someone can figure out a more ergonomic movement pattern for a map, why should that not be allowed? (As long as it doesn't obviously abuse hitbox quirks like the other parts of the video)
Bruh even though i haven't played seriously in a year when i watch walls pass occasionally my brain will glitch and ill twitch tilt my head as if i was playing
5:57 isn’t this name incorrect since you can cheese on the side too? I know it is covered in the section but I am just curious Edit: 14:00 also how did you find out how the notes spawned? I had always thought that NJS was constant. I used to think that the reason the NJS got lowered was because the game favored preserving reaction time over NJS with playspace mover. The reason I thought this was because I saw the shorter distance and assumed reaction time was the same. As a result, I might have incorrectly concluded that NJS was constant from when it spawns in to when it hits you
Njs cheese was super big when it was first discovered I don’t think he was the one that discovered it, it wasn’t really used in challenge too much but it was a huge thing in ranked
@ yeah I think NJS cheese has been known since 2020-2021 as I remember someone getting “second pass” on Exit v2 with it, I was more curious of how he found out the specific mechanics of NJS with the way that the notes spawn in
The only things I don’t understand are metronomes and 360s I would like to see someone with a camera on doing those. I can’t help but cheeese on 360s cuse idk what to do. I am a 400 bpm stamina player and it feels. Any 700 + floor vibro I cheese. What would be the best way to avoid this?
No, they use the same leaderboards, it’s just that in order to rank up in challenge, you have to get your score verified by a discord bot to ensure you didn’t use anything considered cheating. This bot will look for pausing, which BeatLeader (the ranked leaderboard in question) can give you through its API (at least that’s how I understand it).
A small correction, what you're referring to as "ASW" is actually reprojection. ASW is a feature of Oculus Link which generates entirely new frames between existing frames to effectively double the framerate of the game when the framerate is low. It's effectively reprojection taken to another level Virtual Desktop has a similar feature called SSW, or Synchronous Screen Warp, with a similar framerate modifying affect Also, is palm grip the only grip considered cheating? Or is claw grip also considered cheating? I tend to use claw grip just because it reduces the rotational inertia of the controllers, but I never thought of that as being considered cheating. It's just more comfortable and natural to me
No grips are considered cheating, but it is a somewhat controversial topic and he was highlighting the fact that palm grip, 3 finger claw, and any other grips which involve tapping, objectively make most speed maps much much easier.
What advantage does pausing give if anyone can puase the game? Its built into the main game Nobody has an advantage over anyone else because EVERYONE CAN PAUSE THE GAME I call that bullshit, it's not cheating if it's built into the main game
To answer your question, first, I wouldn't say pausing really follows under the term "cheating" in a lot of cases, compared to things of the nature of 3rd party tools or exploiting game mechanics to have an advantage other people wouldn't have. It's seen as just a stamina break, and the idea of a stamina break probably wasn't as controversial in 2018, but as our community got better and better and our community got more separated with many different ways people decide to play the game, stamina became its own skill to people. One example of the divide is in our ranked maps. People still pause to this day but mostly just on high-speed and stamina maps, where fully swinging a 350 bpm map without sacrificing accuracy is not a thing that's very possible in most cases, even in the top level. For ranked tech maps its much different, where you can commonly see many of the top plays on the hardest tech maps in the game having 0 pauses. I would say the most important part is where stamina is its own skill set. Challenge maps are the idea of making a map that pushes the limits of a specific skill instead of just accuracy. Stamina is a big part of how we define skill, where many maps can be 3 minutes straight of 600bpm jumps for the purpose of pushing your stamina to the very limit. Many of the maps have stamina breaks that are put INTO the map which makes it less of a headache due to there being fewer variations among passes; everyone gets the same break at the same time for the same length which makes it much easier to define who passed the map, and even then this situation only applies to the most skilled of players since no one really cares what anyone does below a certain level. But overall it's not a very concrete thing of pausing=unfair advantage as our community is very wide, the ability to have a stamina break for any length at any time is only seen as unfair in certain kinds of maps, where the agreed upon skill is having the stamina needed to go through the map without pausing or dance maps that require having the ability to move quickly enough to dodge walls. As panda said in another reply, cheating only applies when there are rules set, and if in-game mechanics disrupts the rules of how some people enjoy the game, it would still be classified as cheating for those people. *(I DID NOT PEER REVIEW THIS, DO CORRECT ME IF YOU SEE ANYTHING NOT FULLY ACCURATE)*
@ash-b1x4s right, honestly, if people want, they should just make it an option, so on the modded version of the game you can make it so people cant pause on your map if yoi want to set a standard on your map By default it should be turned on, but creators can turn it off for their maps So instead of pausing the game, it will just exit the level entirely
@@ash-b1x4s Im talking about the game itself, not a mod, the modded game requires you to install mods, but im talking about the modded game itself by default without any mods installed Right? Is that how it works? Because i do know that the modded version of the game functions something like... Tmodloader from terraria for example, where it has its own version of the game, where you can install mods onto it I do recall seeing that where you can browse mods and isntall them
@ no not really, there’s multiple mod managers on both oculus standalone and steam but all they really do is automate the mod install process, and having a pause mod preinstalled might be strange to people
Well i did not know cheating beat saber was a thing but i know now Edit: ok i did not do any of the categories in this vid but i feel like a dumbass for not knowing any of it
Hold the controller weird? Cheating. Hit the blocks the easy way instead of the hard way? Cheating. Move your hands? Believe it or not, cheating. Absolute scrub nonsense.
i did not see steroids on this list. Thank you for saving my career Tahir
He saved lots of people’s careers (including outside the bs community)
Breathing; a common yet overlooked method of cheating when it comes to bro beat sabering involving taking a breath in order to oxygenate the cheater's muscles, which artifically boosts the cheater's score. Avoid this tecnique whenever possible.
I’ll have to give that a try
I’ll report back tomorrow how it goes
@@ShreakerGaming so howd it go
@@dabid999I don't think they're responding 😔
As an outsider this is actually how I felt watching this video. This seems like very personal gripes with other peoples playstyles, while asserting authority over the game. Very 2004 era of backwards thinking making this many external rules for a game.
@jazzensemble some of this shit is just straight up the equivalent of bar vs. no bar debate in DanceDanceRevolution lol
entire challenge community shivering their timbers rn
it's going down
@@LEITHAL im yellin timberr
😆
@@veonox7461 you better move
skop dop cop
is this cause I passed crystallized with a controller taped to my ass?
yeah dont do that again
can i see proof of this
huh
@@Dobertathon been meaning to upload this for over 2 years but keep getting distracted by food. once I finally up it I'll send to you if I remember
okay but what if you do that for m€th saber
my downfalls currently in the making
who else uses all of these methods!???
yemen!
"I'm unironically cheating!!!"
Me
"I'm unironically cheating!!!"
@@hendomas7435 you aren’t unironically cheating, you’re unironically stealing. write your own comments
The quality is INSANE
Thanks for the guide, imma be lvl 32 in no time 😎
relatable
I'm a total newcomer when it comes to Beat Saber, but barely a minute into this video and I'm absolutely amazed at the production quality on display. Fantastic work, this really is something special!
This is one of the best beat saber videos I have ever seen. Bravo Deathgamer. The fact that everything in this was hand made is even better. Amazing video.
jumping with joy at this very moment, thank you tahir snyder...
it’s over for me
I love your songs because they are funny
yung spinach???????
YUNG SPINACH PLAYS BEAT SABER!?
no way! i may or may not have been playing one of your songs in beat saber yesterday
what is your opinion on nettspend
I am so glad to be a tech player rn 💀
*resetting*
@@Baldianim8orguy spooky
the production value on this was not something I was expecting
W Video, honestly for a casual player like me, your explanations of literally everything was easy to learn and understand. Very well edited visually too
Great video! Dude, you may have become one of my favorite Beat Saber content creators, even though I've never touched challenge or interacted with its community. The editing is on a good level, just like showcasing and the script. I really hope you won't abandon this hobby and will continue growing in this direction, cause I'd like to see more non-challenge videos in the future (like interviews, history of some events and etc.). Thank you for your contribution to this community, seriously. Don't know about the others, but I appreciate it very much.
HYPE
Wow, amazing production quality for such a small channel. Keep up the good work
sorry for everything, wont happen again
Awesome video, everything is explained in good detail and I hope this gives people who are relatively new to challenge (and just players in general) a better understanding of how all of these work and what to not do!
also I appreciate the shoutout in the description 🙏
Hey it’s KayCeeKC
Calling a different controller grip cheating, and also aiming for funny hitboxes cheating, is actually concerningly authoritarian behavior. I'm a complete outsider but I've never seen a videogame have this many external rules you have to conform to to be considered valid. Actually most other communities wouldn't ban anything on here save maybe pausing.
EDIT: Reading this comment after a few hours, I realise I've worded in a way that comes off as overly critical. I wanted to clarify that I think this video is fantastic. It's very well worded, it has measured and well researched takes, and it clearly comes from a place of clear understanding of the issues treated. The following comment was more a way to add clarification for the viewers about the often misused term "cheating", including some useful definitions that I think better enclose the applicability of the term.
I don't think the video misuses the term AT ALL.
I'm leaving the original comment unedited.
---
Great video, however I think it lacks some serious clarification on the meaning of cheating, and I think without this clarification the video comes off as overly pretentious, as if you're putting yourself personally in the position of deciding what is and isn't cheating, which of course isn't your intention.
So let me say this more clearly:
YOU are not the one deciding what is and isn't cheating. The definition, as I'm about to explain, is SOLELY down to the ruleset of competition.
The very concept of cheating arises when rules are established for a competition. When these rules are set, a competitor who breaks them is cheating.
This means that cheating can't exist unless the competitor is engaged in an environment where rules define a playing field.
Within this definition, cheating DOES NOT EQUAL TO giving yourself an advantage over your competitors. That alone does not satisfy the definition.
As an example, pausing.
In the video, you rightfully note the difference between the ranked and challenge community when it comes to the definition of pausing as cheating.
The reason why pausing is cheating in challenge while it isn't on ranked is NOT because it gives an unfair advantage in challenge and it doesn't in ranked. Pausing objectively helps with stamina in both environments. The reason why pausing is considered cheating in high challenge and not ranked is ONLY due to how the rules of the competition have been laid out. The two communities made different choices, and chose to play by different rulesets.
This IS partially due to how effective pausing can be in high challenge, but the reason why it's cheating is ONLY because that's how the rules have been laid out.
I often say that "pausing is cheating", in every environment: I only say it because if it were for me, pausing would be banned on ranked as well, BUT I'm not the arbiter of the competition, and so I have no right to choose what is and isn't allowed.
As long as pausing is allowed, it is NOT cheating. Does it give people who pause an advantage over people who don't? ABSOLUTELY, but since it's in the rules, that's not cheating. In a sense, you could watch it the other way around: it's people who don't pause who are giving themselves additional restrictions over the standard competition. They are giving themselves a disadvantage, not the other way around.
I repeat, because this concept is truly important: RULES determine what's cheating and what isn't, NOT advantage.
There are tons of examples of things that give a clear advantage that are widely considered not cheating:
Custom sabers, JD fixer, static/modded lighting, hitscore visualisers, custom notes.
There are also tons of examples of things that are usually allowed that are, for example, banned in most tournaments:
Pausing, song chart visualisers, accuracy dot notes, slice visualisers.
And then, of course, as you mention with a note at the beginning of the video, there is the scenario where you're not competing, and you're just playing the game to have fun on your own.
In this scenario, the very idea of cheating is meaningless. If you are not competing with anybody, you are laying the rules for yourself, and you effectively can't cheat.
By all means, change your NJS to your heart content at that point, modify your game with cheat engine. If you're not competing, nothing is cheating. It's like cheats in singleplayer.
To drive this point home one last time:
CHEATING ONLY EXISTS WHEN RULES ARE ESTABLISHED. RULES ARE NOT MADE BY INDIVIDUALS, THEY ARE MADE BY THE COMMUNITY WHO IS COMPETING. DOING THINGS THAT GIVE YOU AN ADVANTAGE DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN CHEATING. YOU CHEAT ONLY WHEN YOU BREAK THE ESTABLISHED RULES OF A COMPETITION.
That is entirely true.
As you mentioned, it wasn't my intention to lay out directly what's cheating out of "my perspective" and what's not.
Going to the pausing part of my video, I do realize that my wording, after explaining the different communities, might've been a bit unfortunate.
I should've made it clear that the following part about the 3-4 wide walls are only applying to the challenge community.
I don't wanna speak for the ranked community in any way, though I'm sorry if that might've gotten over a bit wrong.
While I agree with your point about the definition of what's considered cheating, I think for more casual player's (or EVEN player's INSIDE the community) not being able to judge what's good or bad, its hard for them to be able to tell apart what would be considered cheating OR just a "small advantage". I think that top-players or those involved in a tournament or watching one, are way more aware of the game and can better tell apart whats ""cheating"" or not, or will be aware of the rules given by the tournament or general competition.
The reason I used cheating in some of my statements, was for techniques that are considered banned or very unfair for the challenge community, sorry if that wasn't clear!
I do think my use of the word "cheating" was unfavourable at some topics, since that's straight up saying something would be banned or not, which wasn't my intention, if it did came over that I was speaking for BOTH communities. Most of the time I wanted to talk from the standpoint of the challenge community, though I don't remember I was saying something is specifically cheating in the ranked community.
The statements I put in the name of the challenge community of the topics mentioned in the video, are representing the opinion of the challenge community on these techniques/topics, if not even the RULES that preexist. The only "controversial" topic being the palm-grip part, though it was very important to make aware of it after top players have complained about it. I don't think that I was acting on my own when covering each topics at all, just to make that clear for you!
There's no real "guide" to any of these mentioned topics in the challenge community, nor ranked community (a lot of those topics are irrelevant to a certain degree for ranked) and new people might struggle to understand the views from the top challenge or general players, because there's no given explanation to any of those techniques!
It is correct that I should've made this point more clear in the video or description.
I will soon include a note in the description of the video stating the point about cheating and that it always depends on the rules given by the competition what's considered "cheating" or not. Also including the fact that I was meant to represent the opinion of the challenge community in the majority of the statements, I think that's where it might've gotten over a bit wrong.
I hope you understand this wasn't an easy video to make, since every topic mentioned can be analysed/broken-down way way further, than it is in the video.
My goal was to explain everything very clearly, even for "non top players" and give an overview of everything.
It's hard to give a statement about each given topic, without enraging one or another.
Thank you!
@@tahirssnydersfactory All you said in the video was very clear, very well worded, and 100% informative for both old and new players approaching the challenge side of the game. I don't want my comment to sound overly critical, I think the video is fantastic.
Infact, I thought of my comment more directed to the viewers rather than yourself. It's clear you have well in mind what cheating is, when the term is applicable and when it isn't. I wanted to specify it in this case since the term is often used kind of inappropriately when describing things that are advantageous but not against defined rules.
Again, I apologise if my comment sounded critical: I only wanted to be clear on this aspect of definition. The video is fantastic, tremendous job.
Edit: Reading my original comment again it definitely reads more critical than I envisioned it. I should avoid writing early in the morning. I'm not editing it for the sake of accountability, but yeah, my bad on that.
Holy yap
9:28 I would just like to apologize for my lapse in judgement. I am one of the content cubes on staff in CC. I will take full responsibility for the play being uploaded as it was me who accepted the play. At the time I was neither involved in the challenge scene as well as being a very new content cube. These attributes do not excuse my actions and I will never remember the flame I got for that videos release. I thought that vibro pass on a faster song modifier was insanely impressive and it never occurred to me that the play was cheesed. I hope we can move on as a community together, forgiving my devastating actions towards the beat saber community as well as the reputation of CC as an organization. I am sorry for any disrespect I might have given to the truly talented players by uploading such a cheesed score. On a final note, please do not blame CC for their ignorance in this event, rather, blame me for my horrific sense of vibro and cheese back then. I am truly sorry
It's all good!
That's why I made this video, so people unaware of such techniques are learning.
How is something an unfair advantage, if everyone can do it?
ice angel was probably the best choice of an outro song
I think people who skip leg day should be disqualified for grip because their COM is closer to their chest and hands, personally.
where is the caffeine cheat
ask liam
Such a well made video! I had no idea about any of these communities nor the way BeatSaber actually worked from a programming perspective.
I am not a high-level beatsaber player so if I’m missing information let me know but the debate over palm grip is rather silly. It is just an optimized way to use the tools given to you. Imagine telling sprinters that they can’t run on their toes because it gives an advantage to them over people who run with their full feet touching the ground. One is simply just worse form over the other. I think it mainly comes from the amount of time a certain competition has been around for since these new methods seems like “cheating” because it gives you an immediate advantage. I’d argue that feeling comes with innovation. Whenever a new Strat is developed it feels really good to use since it’s the first time you’re trying something. But everyone can replicate it and doesn’t inherently break how the game works so how would it be cheating? I think how they turned down the difficulty of the difficult levels is valid though but removal of palm grip would be uncalled for
he didnt say it is cheating, he was highlighting the reason it makes jumps easier and the advantage it has over default grip because of the way ‘swinging’ (wiggling your fingers) with it works, since its a somewhat contraversial topic
@@radiate2710his offered solution to disallow it from the challenge community did seem to paint the technique as cheating, though. I agree its not cheating.
I do understand it might be confusing for someone casual in the game to understand the impact that palm grip has on top level jump-vibro maps. I mentioned that even though palm gives you an advantage, in ALMOST all cases it isn't considered cheating or unfair in front of other players. The niche use case of palm grip inside of top level jump-vibro maps is however giving you a way bigger advantage, than players who play on default. We talk about speed's of 600-800bpm, speed's which a casual or most top players will NOT reach anyway. Therefore I didn't call the grip itself cheating considering most maps that exist in the game, though in the niche scenario of those extreme maps, where someone can take the disadvantage of extreme instability while still being able to hit the notes, it gives you a way bigger advantage.
I should've put more weight on the fact I'm talking about very high top level maps.
I hope this helps!
@@tahirssnydersfactory ah, thanks for a response! The clarification did help. I do see how palm grip would give a significant advantage in vibro maps, however is it a problem if everyone in theory has the ability to do palm grip so long as they have the time to master it? Like it is a niche skill as you said but if someone takes the time to perfect it should they be punished for that?
@@nahnvm8493 That's the issue. In comparison to playing on default or similar grips, "mastering" palm grip for a player of higher skill (around level 25) is very quickly and easily achievable (given that you have the ability to stick your hand physically through the controller ring without it falling off). The issue comes that most "progression" in jump-vibro from levels 26 to 30, which transitions from maps below 600bpm to those of 600-800bpm, is being entirely skipped by switching grips once you reached this skill gap. Palm grip has been accepted and been not given any attention for the past 2 years, until this year, where way more people have seen the advantage given by the grip and 90% of new players joining the category are ONLY good on speed maps on palm grip. Take the example with Devilcat, who's included in the video, he was able to skip these levels in around a week! Those levels usually taking players months, if not an entire year to master. The same pattern is seen with other players who have improved in the category because of this grip. Most players are way worse on those maps when playing on default, which is not the case the other way around. Keep in mind again that as I said, this only applies to the niche of high level jump-vibro maps of this difficulty range, beside that palm grip is completely fine!
the video is meant to be titled "Exploits in Beat Saber (A Documentary)"
fuck not again 😥
buckle up
Still my favourite challenge player dw
16:26 I dont understand what resetting is or why its cheating.
If a pattern is designated to be hit the mapper intends but you reset by swinging normal again/hitting it the wrong way that makes it easier, that’s resetting, and defeats the whole purpose of both palmup tech stream maps or tech maps.
Really its not cheating. This creator was quite liberal in calling things cheating. Some of these, including and especially resetting, is perfectly normal tech that everyone can learn that has both benefits and tradeoffs.
Vive cosmos elite is only usable headset after this🚼
2:19 almost fell off my bed cause I started swinging side to side for some dumb ass reason
Glad to know as someone new that it's a sin for me told hold a controller in a comfortable way or set settings up so my game isn't at 30fps.
thanks for the tips Tahir Slander 🙏🙏
🍞
You are underrated man, wish youtube algorithms can show you off more
ASW is not on every headset, its specifically a tech on quest/rift headsets with meta software
Other headsets might have a similar tech but it will have a different name
For example, if I play with Q3 via steam link I will not have any ASW type tech
updating the description soon, thanks!
bro's editing is too good for only 852 subs
a new movie just dropped
this deserves at least 20k views my legend
babe wake up, deathgamer777 uploaded
777
@@schonk_ oh my golly gee is that schonk
@@LechubbyUU-ue6sy schronk if i may ask
Why would resetting be cheating? Sure it may make the map easier but still. It would be an advantage if it took a lot of skill to pull off, like the cheesing, or exploiting the game mechanics, like moving off the platform. Resetting doesn't fit into either of those categories. Anyone can do it with some practice but not as much as the other forms of cheating described.
13:59 unless something changed (haven't kept up with the game in a couple years) the note jump animation does not have any easing to it, they always move at a constant speed. the reason it's slower if you step forward is that a note's movement is achieved by linearly interpolating from its spawn position (the jump distance) to the player (NOT the world origin). thus, there can be more or less distance to travel over the same period of time based on where you are in your play space, meaning variable speed. beat games could probably fix this by making the note spawn position relative to the player instead of absolute like it currently is. in this sense, the NJS actually doesn't directly set the speed of notes, it is only used in calculating the jump distance, which then determines the actual speed of the note in the moment and is prone to exploitation lol
There are a couple of examples of when hilt cheesing or other cheese methods are viable in challenge..
For example, in RoadmanReginalds map "Hypnotic Data V2". Early on in the level there is a very odd stream pattern which he intended for you to cheese, however it is possible to hit normally, as in Sabrefans replay..
Most shitpost levels you are allowed to cheese to a certain extent. As its a mesh of many different types of levels such as Tech, Vibro/Speed, and Streams.
for the swingbug, it feels like a feature like with things like mouse sensitivity except its for the tracking, yes u can make movement faster ingame but irl it require a Lot more precision that most players maybe dont have, idk for the fix u say, 90hz feels a bit high, am sure a lot of low end players dont have a pc powerful enough or even have a headset too old for that (tho personally, for any fast action and rythm game, I can live without at least 120 or 144fps, tho I guess its fair as players invested enough to be in the high end usually have better hardware than entry, nyalso idk anyone who would be crazy enough to try the fast songs at a low fps, like, its probably not even physically possible (I say that from the point of view of a pc gamer that has been using a 144hz screen for half a decade and find games at 60fps to be unplayable)
Welcome back
Index was messing up when I tried to prove that I don't cheat, Its wraps for me
This is incredibly well made, awesome video.
he returned
insane production!!
dude should be working at a film company with the quality of these animations
Gg, amazing video ❤
Nice edits man, keep it up
unemployment final boss
You did an insane job on this video! Best bs related video ive watched by far.
best video ever 100% recomend
so hype this is finally complete!!!!
I am NOT using 1 tick have you lost your mind?!?
worth the wait bookie
Hold up, i thought the devs kept the same Z axis with the Pro mode modifiers
I would love to see a deepdive into each headsets swing bug
I find a lot of these so-called cheat/cheese stuff detrimental to the development/evolution of mapping, because in theory, by holding players accountable for cheesing/cheating, allow mappers to not have the need to make harder/more interesting maps to test/challenge players to overcome them. When ScoreSaber limits its rank map bpm to 350 during a time when speed maps are sprouting out like daisies and started to become one note, the bpm limitation allow/force mappers to "get creative" if they want their maps to achieve higher difficulty standards and/or to give players pause(no pun intended) when encountering their maps. Stagnation signifies the beginning of the end of a game, and it is not something I wish to see in a foreseeable future.
Who much time you invested in this video. Its insane
That intro goes hard af! 🔥
alright now i know i really need to get a rift s at 80hz FAST
2:14 DANCE MAPS MENTIONED ‼‼‼‼‼
you smell
Does the word 'cheating' not imply like, a competitive ruleset that someone might be breaking in order to win a competition?
Nice suggestions for what that ruleset might be, should competition ever arise.
16:41 that's not allowed???
No thats my replay I think lmao, the whole point of the map is to do up to 360° palm ups. In the description I think it says "Do not reset thy wrists"
@@AndusBS lol I didnt think resetting wrists were that big of a deal
@@hendomas7435 in most cases it isnt, its only not allowed in like certain tech maps and stuff like Display/Avoid/Fever where the whole map is palm ups and stuff
@@AndusBS oh, alr thank ye
@@AndusBS As someone outside the beat saber community, that just seems like a bad map. If someone can figure out a more ergonomic movement pattern for a map, why should that not be allowed? (As long as it doesn't obviously abuse hitbox quirks like the other parts of the video)
I love how most of these is basically only banned in the challenge community lmao
Bruh even though i haven't played seriously in a year when i watch walls pass occasionally my brain will glitch and ill twitch tilt my head as if i was playing
my bad
5:57 isn’t this name incorrect since you can cheese on the side too? I know it is covered in the section but I am just curious
Edit: 14:00 also how did you find out how the notes spawned? I had always thought that NJS was constant. I used to think that the reason the NJS got lowered was because the game favored preserving reaction time over NJS with playspace mover. The reason I thought this was because I saw the shorter distance and assumed reaction time was the same. As a result, I might have incorrectly concluded that NJS was constant from when it spawns in to when it hits you
Njs cheese was super big when it was first discovered I don’t think he was the one that discovered it, it wasn’t really used in challenge too much but it was a huge thing in ranked
@ yeah I think NJS cheese has been known since 2020-2021 as I remember someone getting “second pass” on Exit v2 with it, I was more curious of how he found out the specific mechanics of NJS with the way that the notes spawn in
He’s our exposing more players. Watch out
Such a well made, professional video
OMG
I don't see forcefully getting a cs 33 player to pass several maps for you on your account on this list, thanks.
The only things I don’t understand are metronomes and 360s I would like to see someone with a camera on doing those. I can’t help but cheeese on 360s cuse idk what to do.
I am a 400 bpm stamina player and it feels. Any 700 + floor vibro I cheese. What would be the best way to avoid this?
my on quest 3 with 40 degree max swing angle🙃
@@phylI so true. swing angle is impossible
@@LEITHALIs that why I always underswing on Quest 3?
@@litessbu nah most people are able to swing hella big on q3. I'm just bad at it
@@LEITHAL I guess it’s just a skill issue on our parts then
absolute banger video i gotta get back into beat saber
Im gonna be so fr but I’m only in the first 20 seconds if he mentions pausing im gonna sigh so loudly
1:31 there's an entire separate score setter-thingy just for challenge??
No, they use the same leaderboards, it’s just that in order to rank up in challenge, you have to get your score verified by a discord bot to ensure you didn’t use anything considered cheating. This bot will look for pausing, which BeatLeader (the ranked leaderboard in question) can give you through its API (at least that’s how I understand it).
@@litessbu oohhh okk
Subtitles r appreciated
I use LH mode because I’m a lefty :(
Caffeine Boost when 🗣️🗣️🗣️
I had 100 pauses on golden hour Is this considered cheating?
Oh no I am being exposed
good thing I suck enough ass at the game to not have to worry about any of this lmao
Stop leaking my methods on how I cheat
A small correction, what you're referring to as "ASW" is actually reprojection. ASW is a feature of Oculus Link which generates entirely new frames between existing frames to effectively double the framerate of the game when the framerate is low. It's effectively reprojection taken to another level
Virtual Desktop has a similar feature called SSW, or Synchronous Screen Warp, with a similar framerate modifying affect
Also, is palm grip the only grip considered cheating? Or is claw grip also considered cheating?
I tend to use claw grip just because it reduces the rotational inertia of the controllers, but I never thought of that as being considered cheating. It's just more comfortable and natural to me
No grips are considered cheating, but it is a somewhat controversial topic and he was highlighting the fact that palm grip, 3 finger claw, and any other grips which involve tapping, objectively make most speed maps much much easier.
You're right! I'll soon include an update in the description about asw.
About palm grip, basically read what radiate said.
@@radiate2710 I see, thanks for the clarification
Good quality video!
ngl revert jv levels i wanna be 32
an absolute cinema.
What advantage does pausing give if anyone can puase the game? Its built into the main game
Nobody has an advantage over anyone else because EVERYONE CAN PAUSE THE GAME
I call that bullshit, it's not cheating if it's built into the main game
To answer your question, first, I wouldn't say pausing really follows under the term "cheating" in a lot of cases, compared to things of the nature of 3rd party tools or exploiting game mechanics to have an advantage other people wouldn't have. It's seen as just a stamina break, and the idea of a stamina break probably wasn't as controversial in 2018, but as our community got better and better and our community got more separated with many different ways people decide to play the game, stamina became its own skill to people.
One example of the divide is in our ranked maps. People still pause to this day but mostly just on high-speed and stamina maps, where fully swinging a 350 bpm map without sacrificing accuracy is not a thing that's very possible in most cases, even in the top level. For ranked tech maps its much different, where you can commonly see many of the top plays on the hardest tech maps in the game having 0 pauses.
I would say the most important part is where stamina is its own skill set. Challenge maps are the idea of making a map that pushes the limits of a specific skill instead of just accuracy. Stamina is a big part of how we define skill, where many maps can be 3 minutes straight of 600bpm jumps for the purpose of pushing your stamina to the very limit. Many of the maps have stamina breaks that are put INTO the map which makes it less of a headache due to there being fewer variations among passes; everyone gets the same break at the same time for the same length which makes it much easier to define who passed the map, and even then this situation only applies to the most skilled of players since no one really cares what anyone does below a certain level.
But overall it's not a very concrete thing of pausing=unfair advantage as our community is very wide, the ability to have a stamina break for any length at any time is only seen as unfair in certain kinds of maps, where the agreed upon skill is having the stamina needed to go through the map without pausing or dance maps that require having the ability to move quickly enough to dodge walls. As panda said in another reply, cheating only applies when there are rules set, and if in-game mechanics disrupts the rules of how some people enjoy the game, it would still be classified as cheating for those people.
*(I DID NOT PEER REVIEW THIS, DO CORRECT ME IF YOU SEE ANYTHING NOT FULLY ACCURATE)*
@ash-b1x4s
right, honestly, if people want, they should just make it an option, so on the modded version of the game you can make it so people cant pause on your map if yoi want to set a standard on your map
By default it should be turned on, but creators can turn it off for their maps
So instead of pausing the game, it will just exit the level entirely
@ there are mods that do that, but you wont be able to turn off pausing for all modded players, the player would have to get the mod for that
@@ash-b1x4s Im talking about the game itself, not a mod, the modded game requires you to install mods, but im talking about the modded game itself by default without any mods installed
Right? Is that how it works? Because i do know that the modded version of the game functions something like... Tmodloader from terraria for example, where it has its own version of the game, where you can install mods onto it
I do recall seeing that where you can browse mods and isntall them
@ no not really, there’s multiple mod managers on both oculus standalone and steam but all they really do is automate the mod install process, and having a pause mod preinstalled might be strange to people
Well i did not know cheating beat saber was a thing but i know now
Edit: ok i did not do any of the categories in this vid but i feel like a dumbass for not knowing any of it
Why the frick is resetting considered cheating?!
Hold the controller weird? Cheating. Hit the blocks the easy way instead of the hard way? Cheating. Move your hands? Believe it or not, cheating.
Absolute scrub nonsense.
so we’re 12
those below 16 should not be allowed on the internet
This is going to be my first ever ratio
Ratio
ah yeah shouldve thought of that one, putting your brain to use here!
i dont play beat saber anymore but is it cheating to dissemble most of your controller to make it lighter?
Not that I’ve heard of. I’ve taken the wrist straps out of every controller I’ve had just so that they stop whacking me while I’m trying to play.
Holy shit that intro was fire
This makes me happy I never bothered with the chellenge community lol
im gonna use every method here thanks tahir 😈😈😈😈😈😈