Totally agree with Wes, War of Jokes and Riddles is the beginning of the end. Stupid emo Riddler with his question mark carved into him, way too many double page spreads with nothing happening, the horrible Deadshot/Deathstroke/Batman fight that is not even shown to us in a single action sequence, and finally, an ending so bad the writer needs his characters to explain it to the audience because it doesn't make sense.
Before watching the video: I think DC dropped the ball by giving Tom King 100 Batman issues without him being proven on a monthly title. Say what you want about Mister Miracle, but that miniseries was a poor deconstruction of a character that is more niche; Scot Free doesn't the worldwide appeal of Batman. He had been working on many niche titles. The next problem was him trying to deconstruct Batman because Batman doesn't need deconstruction; none of the established superheroes need it because they have been so well-structured throughout the years that they are now meant to be of a certain way. For example, you can love or hate Zack Snyder's version of Superman, but the reality is that that version didn't resonate with audiences worldwide as a whole because it wasn't true to Superman's essence. Same problem here: Batman is not emotional and love will never be above his war on crime. That's who he is: a hero who has given his heart, mind and soul to protect Gotham. But the biggest problem was how he tried to put himself and his wife in the Selina and Bruce dynamic. As a writer, I know that dealing with established characters can be hard, but the reality is that you have to respect that. Tom King is not like Bruce Wayne and if he had been mature enough to understand that, perhaps I would respect the fact that he is so different to the character, but he decided to make the book way too personal and different to what Batman is; he turned a strong, intelligent and capable ninja/detective/strategist into a weak-minded, emotional and mediocre guy who has to lie to not even beat Bane. All of this to elevate Selina, who was never better than Bruce at anything (nothing to be ashamed of; most human heroes are inferior to Batman in most things) and making her extremely unlikable. I was never the biggest Selina fan, but I liked her; now she comes off as petty, nagging and pretentious. So he made a love story with two unlikable characters that started with an external influence (Thomas Wayne telling Bruce to be happy, instead of Bruce actually pursuing that happiness all by himself and then losing his dignity by crawling back to Selina after he was left in the altar). He focused way too much on the love story that he forgot that Batman is based on action, detective work and darkness. Try to remember a great battle in Tom King's run or a great mystery that Batman had to solve. Nothing. All he is remembered for is by ruining the wedding and perhaps the death of Alfred, which we all know is going to be fixed once he leaves. Mediocre run, mediocre writer. And don't get me started on what he did to my boys Kyle and Wally.
Very well written although I disagree with a lot of this, I'll focus on the idea of Batman not needing to be deconstructed because he's already structured and established. In my mind reading the traditional established characters are exactly the characters that should be deconstructed. Disturbing his truths to discover what he is or why he is. So making him fall in love disturbed that whole process of being "Batman" and after he makes that choice and gets it wrenched away how does the Batman we knew, who then made the deconstructionist decision to be in love, become this Batman of issues 51-85? Whether King succeeded or not is a different story too difficult for me to argue here on my phone. But the fact on whether we "need" something in art or stories is always no, we already have Dickens and Shakespeare. But is it cool that someone is crazy enough to deconstruct an established character? That's where we disagree because my answer is an emphatic yes.
@@ChaosandComics You present an interesting point and I think I agree. Perhaps the problem wasn't the concept, but rather the delivery. I also think that deconstruction is something that has become very popular, but not many writers know how to do it. Instead, they tear the character apart and don't put it back together.
Over time there are many holes to poke on King's run. I think his original sin was inserting him own personality & weaknesses in Batman. Nobody wants to read Tom King as a superhero because it would suck. They paid for Batman & didn't get him.
I just finished J&R. like wtf? he just let all that horrible shit happen to Kite-Man and let his son DIE when Riddler had him this whole time? I didn't realize the son even died until the next issue when Batman made a comment on it. I thought he saved the damned kid what the hell is this Psycho of a Batman
The Jokes & Riddles story arc was the only thing I enjoyed about his run, and it wasn't even good. I was just glad to have a story without so much batcat fluff.
Tom King's run is so difficult to get through. The romance with Catwoman takes precedence over everything. I understand King wanted to write a character study, but ignoring Batman's other relationships was ridiculous in the long run. Also, there are so many instances where Batman looks completely incompetent. How is it that Batman gets his ass kicked by Talia, but Catwoman can beat her without specific training? He's also so miserable and brooding. Snyder's Bruce Wayne was lively and capable of accomplishing so much for Gothamites in need.
Tom King was given too much too soon. He showed promise on C characters like Vision and Mister Miracle but he wasn't ready for prime time and A-list books like Batman. He got his head gassed up by the comics press and believed his own hype thinking he was a superstar. This is why he crashed and burned on Batman.From what I see from my 30+ years as a writer and a publisher King needed a lot more seasoning as a writer. Editorial at DC pushed him to a level he wasn't ready for and should've pushed back on some of his crazier ideas. Let him know that he's not the star, the character is. But they were probably afraid of pissing off their golden boy and losing him to Marvel.
The biggest problem for me was that he turned Batman into some weird OC, self insert for him to outlet his mental illness. The character got lost and the unnecessary BatCat. Not a fan of BatCat.
At the end of issue #5, Gotham Girl narrates from the future, saying she’s married to Duke, and that she killed Batman. It felt profound, like a tease of what’s to come, but it seems now like that story was abandoned. I wonder what else has changed along the way.
Michael Palmer Penguin: “I can still feel her. Touching me. Her beautiful black feathers. Her petite, sun-drenched beak.” He calls the bird, Penny, his lover. It’s in issue #60.
@@stanhooper Urrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhh maaaan. * holds head in hands * King is an absolute degenerate. I imagine him and Didio sitting around the office, laughing at how warped and wrong they can make classic characters. It's the only thing that stirs any feel in them at all. I'm sure of it.
@@Wes_From_TC If the editors would allow such a thing, I'm sure Tom King would've had Kite Man flying a kite from the end of his semi-erect penis while he sobs in the moonlight. King tweets: THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PANEL IN MY RUN.
Issue 1 - where Batman weeps as he asks whether his fiery plane crash death would be "a good death" that his parents would be proud of. Absolutely pathetic and showed King didn't, doesn't and never will understand the character. Then add to that all the other times he weeped, whinged, attempted suicide, weeped while recalling how he attempted suicide or talked about how afraid he was in the following issues. Absolutely terrible! KING WAS NEVER ANY GOOD!
After several weeks of deep reflection, I can come up with 3 main reasons why 1) Being too overambitious 2) The inability to balance out who Batman really is & breaking new ground properly 3) Higher Up pushy Interference Story Time: When I first read Tom King's Batman, I was brought with the idea that he can bring something on the table, especially challenging the old concept that Batman can never settles down properly. Even when certain elements don't make complete sense at all like the Knightmares & the war between riddles & jokes, I still literally grit my teeth & bear with it, hoping the pain will be worth it by the time issue 50 comes out Everything went down for me however when the wedding didn't happen. But the breaking point came when Nightwing gets shot & since then, majority of the characters have suffered from Alfred to Damain, even the villians themsleves aren't spared either (I don't care about the rogues much but I feel those who do) through the way they're treated to how they speak. It also affects their other solo titles too & the once popular Batman & Catwoman Pairing. (Currently Almost on the same level as Reylo from Star Wars) The Truth is, Batman to me, will always have the memory of his parents death in him along with the question of being happy if he adds someone special to his family but those aren't the ONLY things that should define him completely. His Detective & Athletic skills, the people he relies on from time to time like Alfred, his parental figure, 3 adopted sons (Dick, Jason, Tim) & 1 biological one (Damian whom he had to raise as a single parent for the past 10 years till now. I'm sure the other bat family members help out too as best they could despite their own feelings towards him, especially Tim), various allies (The Bat Family, JL, Outsiders, etc), the world's greatest superhero, Superman who loves him like a brother (He even helps to safely protect the fortress to ensure Clark delivers his son Jonathan in Superman: Reborn alongside WW that he may be Superboy's Super Godfather too.) & the lessons he learns along the way like overcoming & dealing with pain & defeat but never giving up entirely & his willingness to seek justice for all over 80 years were also vital elements in the Batman Mythos despite not being perfect. I turn to Batman during my early Youth because I suffered from mild Anxiety easily when things either get too much or stressful to handle for someone who has mild Autism. For all this to be allowed alongside what Bendis' has done to the Superman Mythos' which was already setting foot by Dan Jurgens & Peter Tomasi's painsaking efforts, It has not only affecting sales, but also the customers who are willing to spend their time, money, effort & soul into this, the majority of innocent artists (Joelle Jones & Clay Mann) who have done great Art in King's run & the other writers from Solo titles like Dan Jurgens, Adam Glass & probably James Tynion who had to pick up the shattered pieces first after Batman 85 before getting things back on proper track. Most importantly, It kinda defeats the true propose of Rebirth: To bring back what old fans truly love while challenging old ideas (Like whether Heores can lead normal lives too), creating new characters like Simon Baz & Jessica Cruz, New Super-Man and the China Jusice League & setting up a new DC universe where the old & new can co-exist together (Which is why Superman, Lois & Jon are a combination of both the Pre-52 & New 52 towards the end of Dan Jurgens' Superman: Reborn are) that will allow present & new fans to follow for many years to come AND makes DDC more distant than ever imagined. DC Higher Ups especially Didio HAS to eventually realise this ASAP or they WILL lose more customers than Marvel since they have some stronger elements themsleves, especially with the upcoming RUMORED 5G initiative in the near future. That's what truly motivaties me to bring my issues up professionally at my Comic con for the sake of long time fans & new readers who deserve better than all this. (NOT BECAUSE OF BEING A TRIGGERED NERD ENTIRELY)
@@Wes_From_TC You are welcome. It's just something to get off my chest. But could u mind sharing my story on this week's livestream? To at least highlight why most folks like myself still regard Rebirth as a high point in DC comics till this day.
When I got into comics, it was at the time when The War of Jokes and Riddles by King had come out. It was the book being hyped up as World Class and the best comic on the stands. As a newcomer, I didn't know much so I literally went into the comicshop and picked it up. For all the hype from the articles, I was extremely disappointed. If it weren't for the comicshop owner being such an inclusive great guy, and some other books I picked up, I might have not gone back. The last book I picked up from King was Batman 50, and I'm glad i never picked anything from him again.
For me it started to go down from Batman losing and Catwoman having to save him in the 800 anniversary issue of the title... "Batman". Issue 35 in the current series
I am from Spain. I've been reading Batman for 20 years. I love Grant Morrison's Batman, or Paul Dini or many other authors. I love Brubaker's Catwoman. With Tom King I have lost interest in continuing to read Batman and Catwoman. It's really bad. He is the worst of the worst.
Very funny. I love that Joker issue where he and Catwoman beat each other up and he essentially convinces her to ditch Batman during the wedding. Don't know anyone who liked Knightmares though...including me.
Knightmares was honestly one of the worst arcs of any character I've ever read. It's the first story in years that had me counting how many pages I had left like every issue.
Knightmares is what got me into this run. Overall, TK Batman has its weak points, but I love the bat/cat story. It's a deep investment into a relationship that's been only teased for decades. It feels like a comic for adults, or at least this adult.
@@ChaosandComics I first read issue 62 because of Gerards' art. Sure, it was completely confusing, as were the additional issues in the run, but, for me, starting in the middle is interesting because it brings up so many questions. Makes me pay more attention when I finally end up reading the beginning. One of the cool things about reading comics.
Fun vid. Heard someone ask the question who was worse, King or Bendis, and they came firmly down on the side of Bendis. I find that really hard to believe, I just can't stomach King's writing anymore, just weird internal monologues.
Bendis is destroying way too much now compared to King. Thats why most hate him. While Batman you still have an alternative in Detective Comics, you can't escape Bendis. Poor Superman fans.
Unknown User King killed Alfred, ruined Batman's character and we may see Bruce replaced with a new Batman. Less important to me (though terrible) is Bendis screwing up Superman, Action Comics and Teen Titans.
@@waelse1 what I love about Detective Comics is that it ignored Tom King's run *completely.* Alfred is still alive with a Flash mask on his head. Lmao About the 5G initiative it all sucks ass. The new Batman is former Batwing? Seriously? Why not Tim or Dick? Hell Jason would be better pick. Theres no emotional attachment to Batwing besides he's a minor Batfam member. And the new Flash is Captaim Boomerang's son. Oh boy, this is just ankward. There is a family relation with his mother being Meloni Thawne, but it's weird.... (Meloni is also Impulse's mother. LONG story) this initiative is going to fail so bad, I wouldve laughed if my fav characthers werent assasinated.
Tom King just kept breaking and breaking and breaking down Batman. Just like he did to Wally and he never took the time to build him back up. He literally broke the character. This isn’t Batman. It’s really noticeable when you read someone like Tomasi on Detective. He used Batman, the title character, to prop up other characters like Catwoman, but made her so unlikable in the process. His dialogue is awful and it was never good, along with all the pretentious poetry. I could go on for days. King’s Batman is emotionally stunted, weak, and also very unlikable. On top of that, the writing, structure, and the plot jumping from one point to another without any explanation. Some of his concepts could be interesting but he’s using the book and readers as his therapist. I can’t believe some of the stuff DC has let him get away with. Also, I’ve been reading Batman since the early 90’s and I can say, personally, this is the worst Batman run I’ve read. I’ve just never witnessed the character done this dirty before. It’s pathetic. DC really screwed up by putting King on Batman and then later cancelling Rebirth by letting Bendis spread throughout the line like a cancer.
It started out okay. But after the first vol. That's where it all went bad for me. Honestly I just hate the writing of it. Every time theres dialogue it just doesnt make sense and overall I was uninterested in alot of the arcs. But I am a fan of the batman catwoman idea. I wished it worked out better. But just not with tom king. I also dont really like mikel Janin art all that much just feels to cg for me
@@sambatkulkarni9305 sorta. I'm trying to kick Batman really but now fucking Warren Ellis is on a maxi-series so another goddamn year. I can say I am a fan of more weird and experimental writing... Barthalme ect. I do ***understand*** there is stuff people would hate and the most pop of all comics might not be the place to do these things. But it still sells well and it seems just people on twitter and youtube hate it.
@@Throttleback it's the top selling ongoing book. Immortal hulk briefly beat it for a couple weeks and everyone wrote articles about how King was a failure even though for that short period it was *gasp* the second top selling ongoing. Even if it hasn't been first it's always in 70k range which is very good for this day and age.
City of Bane was very disappointing in which it was BANE'S story, but he appeared in 4 panels (?) before the conclusion story. He did nothing but sit around before fighting and getting shot.
AS A READER OF BATMAN STARTED BACK IN 1959 HE HAS DESTROYED A GREAT SUPERHERO! THE FALTERING OF EDITOR CONTROL THE FAMILY OF BATMAN. IT MAKE YOU CRY FOR THESE CRIMES.
And its a part of Batman's Legacy now. Ick. Lois and Catwoman drunk in the FoS. Along with other things that will make me sad panda. Plus I am overtired of DECONSTRUCTION of the Traditional Heroes and Heroines. Campbellian Heroes and Heroines that is. I love Positive and Flat Character Arcs the most. Current comics definitely rub me the wrong way. Its over-saturated with Dystopia and downer stuff. I am exhausted from it. So I am combating it by writing my own book. A novel that has the assets and tropes I love from the bronze and silver age.
@@michaelpalmer5351 YUP! I already have 8000 words. And its going to have space opera in it too. Because I also Love Green Lantern and Flash Gordon. And John Carter of Mars. The list is endless.
@@Wes_From_TC I do wonder if the fact that he and many other writers today can only deconstruct and rearrange works that have come before is because they want their 'run' to be the "last word" on the character somehow. As in, we'll tear it down to such a point that nobody could ever reference what we've done or take a different spin on it because it's utterly impossible to build anything out of ruins.
The true batman WILL always BE denny oneils batman he is the definitive batman he gave us the worlds greatest detective the compassionate human the confident vigilante who will stop at nothing to eliminate war on crime.
In issue #12, Bruce describes how he attempted suicide at the age of ten, cutting his wrists with one of his father’s razors. I never hear anyone discussing this, but I feel it’s egregious and worth mentioning.
@@MutantsInDisguise It's because King can only see Batman as HIM so the identity of Batman is basically just Tom and his career as a writer. Or something?
King has had ten-year-old Bruce Wayne, Mister Miracle, and Wally West attempt or commit suicide. Also, in the Booster altered timeline (issues #45 - 47), Hal Jordan shoots himself in the head, as does Bruce Wayne. I feel like King thinks suicide is cool.
@@stanhooper I can only assume he's attempted or thinks about suicide so much that he thinks it's just part of everybody's life. "What did you do at school today, Susie?" "Slit my wrists in the bathroom and narrated some poetry over the top of it." "You and me BOTH!" * laughs * But in all seriousness, it's tragic. His own nihilistic misery has probably led to genuine despair in hundreds if not thousands of readers.
Thank you so much for this video, guys. I have to say this: 1. Tom King truly made me read current Batman comic books after Scott Snyder's not so good run (not terrible though). I still have King's first three books with the character, and are still decent despite his clumsy dialogue. However, The Button is my favorite because I was very invested in Rebirth. Those first 22 issues were decent (I exclude two because Night of the Monster Men was trash). 2. The reason I looked forward to King's run on Batman was his marriage to Catwoman, for the first time in canon. But I got impatient. The War of Jokes and Riddles was the beginning of filler arcs that made no sense. Man, I just wanted Batman and Catwoman to get married. Why extending it until 2018? 3. Batman 50: I reread its two-part prologue, and... OMG, what the hell happened? The ending of 50 was a poor tease, and King showed his true colors by turning Batman into a weakling brute who punched his loved ones. I still love the 54th issue, but most of his post-(no)wedding stories are painful to read. Knightmares and City of Bane are already among the worst Batman tales I've ever read, and here's where Dan DiDio realized King was losing DC money. The fact King was fired from the book was because of sales, not because DiDio cares about fans. 4. Finally, with the 5G coming, my hopes for James Tynion IV on the magazine are pointless now. Let me be clear: I have no issues with Tynion, but the guy will write only 15 issues and the 5G. 5. Is this the worst Batman ever? No. Like I said, there are good things in it, but it's truly painful. Thank you again for this video, Wes. Greetings from Costa Rica.
Of someone writing the "main" Batman comic? This is quite possibly the worst Batman comic in years I've read that's just so godawful. I mean there's usually something redeeming I can find in even the worst runs on Batman save ironically after Finch left Batman: The Dark Knight. At least that run is just garbage you can easily forget. King's run is mucking things up so badly. It feels like an eternity, but Tynion's first issue but it's only a month away. With both he and Tomasi having to clean up this entire mess. I really feel sorry for both writers because damn did King leave Batman in such a shitty status quo and I feel it's only going to get worse.
The first storylines were 🔥 however. I liked Gotham/Gotham Girl initially & my interest was peaked. Maybe the 100 issues was too daunting a task for Mr King. on that note, I liked Omega Men
I stopped reading this arc just on the night of the monster men issue. So pretty early on it lost me, i was thinking of picking up the deluxe editions and reading it again. But now it sounds like I shouldn't
It has been a long time since I read War of Jokes and RIddles but I think it bothered me too when he let them die. But when Batman lied to Bane about a one-on-one fight, as a casual fan I suppose compared to you guys, I thought....what the hell is this? I mean, this doesn't seem like Batman. I tried to justify it as necessary and basically what any sane rational person would do. Lie. But it just didn't feel like Batman to me, even as someone who hasn't read that many comics. Then again even the DCAMU Batman based off the New 52 can sometimes not feel like Batman. Idk if I have a rigid understanding of him because characters should change or you end up with The New Batman Adventures characature of Batman. But Batman TAS felt like Batman and so did even the The Batman (2004) version when inside the costume. It's a delicate balancing act to change. The Thomas Wayne Flashpoint Batman arc was beyond stupid though and I sat bewildered at what I just read, it was so stupid I just said...yeah I'm not reading anymore. I've read a good amount of comics in my life so far I feel and that was ...so bad. I'm only 21 so my memory of the war of jokes and riddles is hazy. I remember not liking it and thinking it was dumb, I mean it's worth a read, it's just strange to me some of the choices, not necessarily bad strange but I don't see Riddler looking like an fboy (it's grown on me now) and talking SO much because he's so interested in solving the Joker's smile problem. I really don't get it. The smile problem felt like a gimmick and I feel was a good idea though because Gotham's Jeremiah Valeska having a "reason" to smile was done better. Even though that reason was his insanity, it was also Batman, at least in Season 4 and the finale..kinda, he smiled when he blew up the bridges. But yeah the season 4 look had dark clothing reminiscent and no smile of this WarofJokesandRiddles look somewhat. Season 5 Joker with the black suit, red/pink shirt and tie and purple gloves looked like Endgame Joker. Anyways I got offtrack 12:36 I thought catwoman and joker lying down were weird but I thought this was a good change.
I agree totally he was a dishonorable sad middle aged crisis going through weak minded borderline coward in this run. I had returned to comics at the wedding and almost left because of it. I honestly think the last half of the run was an add for the bat and cat series. Thank God it's finally over!!!!!!!
For real! He needs Catwoman to beat Talia for him and she's able to sneak into his mansion 3 times. You also barely see the side of Bruce Wayne that invests in Gotham and it's people.
I always thought his stories were only mediocre at best. The CatBat love story already annoyed me, but it turned into trash with Jokes& Riddles. City of Bane is unreadable. Thats why I stopped. No matter what book King is always writing crappy dialogue, which a 12 year old could have written better.
I think Tom King shouldve been let go after issue 50. It was such a massive middle finger to everyone who was excited and left many fans angry. And DC knew this but they kept because of their previous agreement, and look how that turned out. It wasnt until the knightmare arc they finally decided to get rid of him. But if they got rid of him after the wedding backlash, knightmare's disasterious sales wouldn't have occurred. But atleast DC learned their lesson, too late but still
Agreed this is where it finally fell apart. But as Wes mentioned Jokes and Riddles was the first sign. But certainly near the end of the #20's I could feel that this was not going well moving forward. Why did they feel the need to announce or promise him 100 issues? Just start and we'll let you know how many issues you get. Which should have been IMMEDIATELY after #50 for sure.
King was always overhyped. Every story he writes, especially this Batman run, is him wrestling with his erectile disfunction. Thank God they put Tynion on the book.
The last good batman was Morrisons epic and even that was shat on in the end with the new 52 garbage. Snyder is pretentious in a different way to king.
@@Wes_From_TC The ending of that was a botched in my opinion. The court is embedded in the mythos now and started excellent. The first 9 issues or so were excellent and innovative.
Here is another reason to hate this guy; did you ever read his reimagining of the Omega Men? I absolutely hated it. And, was a fan from the Gerber\Giffen run in1980's.
@Naquin Green Thank you for asking. I think they suck! It all sucks! He's just another postmodern cynic with no heart and soul - writing purely from his head like a brain in a jar or a computer would do.
@Naquin Green Absolutely! It's the same across most comics now: every hero is a depressed sadsack while the villains are these cool, edgy, unstoppable badasses who just run ramshod over the 'pathetic' notions of good, truth and justice. Urhgh.
@Naquin Green Absolutely. Just stick with the past. Writers then had a connection to Logos (the universal order) and the stories were nourishing to your soul to read. It's the complete opposite now - in that the modern stories TAKE AWAY from your wellbeing and your soul. It's the reverse process of how it should be and how it always was. Snyder, King and Didio are just despair merchants pumping despair into the reader because it's all they know how to do. "Villains good and edgy and cool. Heroes weak and bad." It's just a reflection of their own lives and their own utter lack of moral decency and courage. Urgh. x
I was disappointed with The War Of Jokes And Riddles. Irritated with Kite-Man. Angry at Issue 50. Stuck with it, and more or less happy with issue 85. Looking forward to Batman and Catwoman.
@@Wes_From_TC Generally not happy with the number of Batman associated titles, which make it hard to follow continuity. Less titles would make better quality stories. Marvel overreached also, first with SpiderMan, then X-Men, then Deadpool etc. Just trying to milk the fans.
I gotta say Bendus is now the worst writer at DC, because he's essentially going to destroy this wonderful universe with his all new all different DC also known as 5G. King just love to sissify Bruce and turn Selena into the main character in his own book. 🙁
people take comics too seriously sometimes. It's a FICTION story. Take it as it is... i quite enjoy his writing. in 50 years i never bought a Batman comic until he stared writing it. I think Snyder is incredibly mediocre. He would never have been as popular without Capulo. There's SOOOOO MANY better writers out there including King.
Up to the wedding it was going well. The wedding story is basically about nothing, it's full of variant art covers and selina getting talked out of the wedding in like 2 mins and then she leaves. How do you enjoy something like that? For me that was the deal breaker. The I am trilogy and war of jokes and riddles were good IMO, but after that king just messed up everything
It's been bad since superfriends issue around 40 something till now....it sucks cause batman my favorite comic book and the art is amazing but the stories just suck
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Totally agree with Wes, War of Jokes and Riddles is the beginning of the end. Stupid emo Riddler with his question mark carved into him, way too many double page spreads with nothing happening, the horrible Deadshot/Deathstroke/Batman fight that is not even shown to us in a single action sequence, and finally, an ending so bad the writer needs his characters to explain it to the audience because it doesn't make sense.
One if the worst payoffs to an interesting premise I've ever read. I never looked at him the same after War of Jokes and Riddles.
Before watching the video: I think DC dropped the ball by giving Tom King 100 Batman issues without him being proven on a monthly title. Say what you want about Mister Miracle, but that miniseries was a poor deconstruction of a character that is more niche; Scot Free doesn't the worldwide appeal of Batman. He had been working on many niche titles.
The next problem was him trying to deconstruct Batman because Batman doesn't need deconstruction; none of the established superheroes need it because they have been so well-structured throughout the years that they are now meant to be of a certain way. For example, you can love or hate Zack Snyder's version of Superman, but the reality is that that version didn't resonate with audiences worldwide as a whole because it wasn't true to Superman's essence. Same problem here: Batman is not emotional and love will never be above his war on crime. That's who he is: a hero who has given his heart, mind and soul to protect Gotham.
But the biggest problem was how he tried to put himself and his wife in the Selina and Bruce dynamic. As a writer, I know that dealing with established characters can be hard, but the reality is that you have to respect that. Tom King is not like Bruce Wayne and if he had been mature enough to understand that, perhaps I would respect the fact that he is so different to the character, but he decided to make the book way too personal and different to what Batman is; he turned a strong, intelligent and capable ninja/detective/strategist into a weak-minded, emotional and mediocre guy who has to lie to not even beat Bane. All of this to elevate Selina, who was never better than Bruce at anything (nothing to be ashamed of; most human heroes are inferior to Batman in most things) and making her extremely unlikable. I was never the biggest Selina fan, but I liked her; now she comes off as petty, nagging and pretentious. So he made a love story with two unlikable characters that started with an external influence (Thomas Wayne telling Bruce to be happy, instead of Bruce actually pursuing that happiness all by himself and then losing his dignity by crawling back to Selina after he was left in the altar).
He focused way too much on the love story that he forgot that Batman is based on action, detective work and darkness. Try to remember a great battle in Tom King's run or a great mystery that Batman had to solve. Nothing. All he is remembered for is by ruining the wedding and perhaps the death of Alfred, which we all know is going to be fixed once he leaves.
Mediocre run, mediocre writer. And don't get me started on what he did to my boys Kyle and Wally.
Very well written although I disagree with a lot of this, I'll focus on the idea of Batman not needing to be deconstructed because he's already structured and established. In my mind reading the traditional established characters are exactly the characters that should be deconstructed. Disturbing his truths to discover what he is or why he is. So making him fall in love disturbed that whole process of being "Batman" and after he makes that choice and gets it wrenched away how does the Batman we knew, who then made the deconstructionist decision to be in love, become this Batman of issues 51-85?
Whether King succeeded or not is a different story too difficult for me to argue here on my phone. But the fact on whether we "need" something in art or stories is always no, we already have Dickens and Shakespeare. But is it cool that someone is crazy enough to deconstruct an established character?
That's where we disagree because my answer is an emphatic yes.
@@ChaosandComics You present an interesting point and I think I agree. Perhaps the problem wasn't the concept, but rather the delivery. I also think that deconstruction is something that has become very popular, but not many writers know how to do it. Instead, they tear the character apart and don't put it back together.
Kevin Tanza im proud of all three of you having this civil discussion.
Over time there are many holes to poke on King's run. I think his original sin was inserting him own personality & weaknesses in Batman. Nobody wants to read Tom King as a superhero because it would suck. They paid for Batman & didn't get him.
And Roy Harper that's the most horrible thing he has done
It went wrong with the whole marrying Catwoman story arc and it got worse by getting rid of Alfred and also Jokes and Riddles was a bad story arc.
He compounds a lot of his narrative mistakes by doubling down rather than fixing. A very postmodern approach to commercial art.
I just finished J&R. like wtf? he just let all that horrible shit happen to Kite-Man and let his son DIE when Riddler had him this whole time?
I didn't realize the son even died until the next issue when Batman made a comment on it.
I thought he saved the damned kid
what the hell is this Psycho of a Batman
The Jokes & Riddles story arc was the only thing I enjoyed about his run, and it wasn't even good. I was just glad to have a story without so much batcat fluff.
I realize I'm kinda randomly asking but does anybody know of a good place to watch newly released movies online?
@Vivaan Julius I would suggest flixzone. You can find it on google =)
Tom King's run is so difficult to get through. The romance with Catwoman takes precedence over everything. I understand King wanted to write a character study, but ignoring Batman's other relationships was ridiculous in the long run. Also, there are so many instances where Batman looks completely incompetent. How is it that Batman gets his ass kicked by Talia, but Catwoman can beat her without specific training? He's also so miserable and brooding. Snyder's Bruce Wayne was lively and capable of accomplishing so much for Gothamites in need.
Tom King was given too much too soon. He showed promise on C characters like Vision and Mister Miracle but he wasn't ready for prime time and A-list books like Batman. He got his head gassed up by the comics press and believed his own hype thinking he was a superstar. This is why he crashed and burned on Batman.From what I see from my 30+ years as a writer and a publisher King needed a lot more seasoning as a writer. Editorial at DC pushed him to a level he wasn't ready for and should've pushed back on some of his crazier ideas. Let him know that he's not the star, the character is. But they were probably afraid of pissing off their golden boy and losing him to Marvel.
Shawn James If you actually are a fan of Mister Miracle& know his character you realize what trash King wrote.
Yes
The biggest problem for me was that he turned Batman into some weird OC, self insert for him to outlet his mental illness. The character got lost and the unnecessary BatCat. Not a fan of BatCat.
No doubt
At the end of issue #5, Gotham Girl narrates from the future, saying she’s married to Duke, and that she killed Batman. It felt profound, like a tease of what’s to come, but it seems now like that story was abandoned. I wonder what else has changed along the way.
I imagine this isn't the story King had in mind. He got feedback he didn't like. Doubled down on his failures & the book got progressively worse.
Didn’t King have the Penguin in a relationship with an actual penguin? That’s gotta be worth a mention!
Did he??????
Dear Lord.
Michael Palmer Penguin: “I can still feel her. Touching me. Her beautiful black feathers. Her petite, sun-drenched beak.” He calls the bird, Penny, his lover. It’s in issue #60.
@@stanhooper Urrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhh maaaan. * holds head in hands *
King is an absolute degenerate. I imagine him and Didio sitting around the office, laughing at how warped and wrong they can make classic characters.
It's the only thing that stirs any feel in them at all. I'm sure of it.
I don't remember that but I guess that's how trauma works some times. You forget the time that dude was banging penguins in Batman.
@@Wes_From_TC If the editors would allow such a thing, I'm sure Tom King would've had Kite Man flying a kite from the end of his semi-erect penis while he sobs in the moonlight.
King tweets: THIS IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PANEL IN MY RUN.
It went wrong with the very first Rebirth issue. When he started whin8mg about making his parents proud while riding a plane like he was skying.
Issue 1 - where Batman weeps as he asks whether his fiery plane crash death would be "a good death" that his parents would be proud of.
Absolutely pathetic and showed King didn't, doesn't and never will understand the character. Then add to that all the other times he weeped, whinged, attempted suicide, weeped while recalling how he attempted suicide or talked about how afraid he was in the following issues. Absolutely terrible!
KING WAS NEVER ANY GOOD!
@Darth Pancake Studios Right on!
After several weeks of deep reflection, I can come up with 3 main reasons why
1) Being too overambitious
2) The inability to balance out who Batman really is & breaking new ground properly
3) Higher Up pushy Interference
Story Time: When I first read Tom King's Batman, I was brought with the idea that he can bring something on the table, especially challenging the old concept that Batman can never settles down properly. Even when certain elements don't make complete sense at all like the Knightmares & the war between riddles & jokes, I still literally grit my teeth & bear with it, hoping the pain will be worth it by the time issue 50 comes out
Everything went down for me however when the wedding didn't happen. But the breaking point came when Nightwing gets shot & since then, majority of the characters have suffered from Alfred to Damain, even the villians themsleves aren't spared either (I don't care about the rogues much but I feel those who do) through the way they're treated to how they speak. It also affects their other solo titles too & the once popular Batman & Catwoman Pairing. (Currently Almost on the same level as Reylo from Star Wars)
The Truth is, Batman to me, will always have the memory of his parents death in him along with the question of being happy if he adds someone special to his family but those aren't the ONLY things that should define him completely. His Detective & Athletic skills, the people he relies on from time to time like Alfred, his parental figure, 3 adopted sons (Dick, Jason, Tim) & 1 biological one (Damian whom he had to raise as a single parent for the past 10 years till now. I'm sure the other bat family members help out too as best they could despite their own feelings towards him, especially Tim), various allies (The Bat Family, JL, Outsiders, etc), the world's greatest superhero, Superman who loves him like a brother (He even helps to safely protect the fortress to ensure Clark delivers his son Jonathan in Superman: Reborn alongside WW that he may be Superboy's Super Godfather too.) & the lessons he learns along the way like overcoming & dealing with pain & defeat but never giving up entirely & his willingness to seek justice for all over 80 years were also vital elements in the Batman Mythos despite not being perfect.
I turn to Batman during my early Youth because I suffered from mild Anxiety easily when things either get too much or stressful to handle for someone who has mild Autism.
For all this to be allowed alongside what Bendis' has done to the Superman Mythos' which was already setting foot by Dan Jurgens & Peter Tomasi's painsaking efforts,
It has not only affecting sales, but also the customers who are willing to spend their time, money, effort & soul into this, the majority of innocent artists (Joelle Jones & Clay Mann) who have done great Art in King's run & the other writers from Solo titles like Dan Jurgens, Adam Glass & probably James Tynion who had to pick up the shattered pieces first after Batman 85 before getting things back on proper track. Most importantly, It kinda defeats the true propose of Rebirth: To bring back what old fans truly love while challenging old ideas (Like whether Heores can lead normal lives too), creating new characters like Simon Baz & Jessica Cruz, New Super-Man and the China Jusice League & setting up a new DC universe where the old & new can co-exist together (Which is why Superman, Lois & Jon are a combination of both the Pre-52 & New 52 towards the end of Dan Jurgens' Superman: Reborn are) that will allow present & new fans to follow for many years to come AND makes DDC more distant than ever imagined.
DC Higher Ups especially Didio HAS to eventually realise this ASAP or they WILL lose more customers than Marvel since they have some stronger elements themsleves, especially with the upcoming RUMORED 5G initiative in the near future.
That's what truly motivaties me to bring my issues up professionally at my Comic con for the sake of long time fans & new readers who deserve better than all this. (NOT BECAUSE OF BEING A TRIGGERED NERD ENTIRELY)
Could've not said it better about DC's current state.
Thanks for sharing!!
@@Wes_From_TC You are welcome. It's just something to get off my chest. But could u mind sharing my story on this week's livestream? To at least highlight why most folks like myself still regard Rebirth as a high point in DC comics till this day.
@@fuzzygurl23 I'll message you on Discord!
When I got into comics, it was at the time when The War of Jokes and Riddles by King had come out. It was the book being hyped up as World Class and the best comic on the stands. As a newcomer, I didn't know much so I literally went into the comicshop and picked it up. For all the hype from the articles, I was extremely disappointed. If it weren't for the comicshop owner being such an inclusive great guy, and some other books I picked up, I might have not gone back. The last book I picked up from King was Batman 50, and I'm glad i never picked anything from him again.
You made the right choice fam!
The best thing about Tom King's Batman run was Mikel Janin's artwork.
For me it started to go down from Batman losing and Catwoman having to save him in the 800 anniversary issue of the title... "Batman". Issue 35 in the current series
I am from Spain. I've been reading Batman for 20 years. I love Grant Morrison's Batman, or Paul Dini or many other authors. I love Brubaker's Catwoman. With Tom King I have lost interest in continuing to read Batman and Catwoman. It's really bad. He is the worst of the worst.
Very funny. I love that Joker issue where he and Catwoman beat each other up and he essentially convinces her to ditch Batman during the wedding.
Don't know anyone who liked Knightmares though...including me.
Knightmares was honestly one of the worst arcs of any character I've ever read. It's the first story in years that had me counting how many pages I had left like every issue.
Knightmares is what got me into this run. Overall, TK Batman has its weak points, but I love the bat/cat story. It's a deep investment into a relationship that's been only teased for decades. It feels like a comic for adults, or at least this adult.
@@callahan821 Interesting. I just there were too many dream sequences. How were you not really confused coming in at that point?
@@ChaosandComics I first read issue 62 because of Gerards' art. Sure, it was completely confusing, as were the additional issues in the run, but, for me, starting in the middle is interesting because it brings up so many questions. Makes me pay more attention when I finally end up reading the beginning. One of the cool things about reading comics.
Fun vid. Heard someone ask the question who was worse, King or Bendis, and they came firmly down on the side of Bendis. I find that really hard to believe, I just can't stomach King's writing anymore, just weird internal monologues.
Yeah... King is just unbearable at this point. At least Bendis is kinda fun even at his worst.
Bendis is destroying way too much now compared to King. Thats why most hate him. While Batman you still have an alternative in Detective Comics, you can't escape Bendis. Poor Superman fans.
Unknown User King killed Alfred, ruined Batman's character and we may see Bruce replaced with a new Batman. Less important to me (though terrible) is Bendis screwing up Superman, Action Comics and Teen Titans.
@@waelse1 what I love about Detective Comics is that it ignored Tom King's run *completely.* Alfred is still alive with a Flash mask on his head. Lmao
About the 5G initiative it all sucks ass. The new Batman is former Batwing? Seriously? Why not Tim or Dick? Hell Jason would be better pick. Theres no emotional attachment to Batwing besides he's a minor Batfam member. And the new Flash is Captaim Boomerang's son. Oh boy, this is just ankward. There is a family relation with his mother being Meloni Thawne, but it's weird.... (Meloni is also Impulse's mother. LONG story) this initiative is going to fail so bad, I wouldve laughed if my fav characthers werent assasinated.
We're debating King vs Bendis love on the channel Saturday!!
Tom King just kept breaking and breaking and breaking down Batman. Just like he did to Wally and he never took the time to build him back up. He literally broke the character. This isn’t Batman. It’s really noticeable when you read someone like Tomasi on Detective. He used Batman, the title character, to prop up other characters like Catwoman, but made her so unlikable in the process. His dialogue is awful and it was never good, along with all the pretentious poetry. I could go on for days. King’s Batman is emotionally stunted, weak, and also very unlikable. On top of that, the writing, structure, and the plot jumping from one point to another without any explanation. Some of his concepts could be interesting but he’s using the book and readers as his therapist. I can’t believe some of the stuff DC has let him get away with.
Also, I’ve been reading Batman since the early 90’s and I can say, personally, this is the worst Batman run I’ve read. I’ve just never witnessed the character done this dirty before. It’s pathetic. DC really screwed up by putting King on Batman and then later cancelling Rebirth by letting Bendis spread throughout the line like a cancer.
It started out okay. But after the first vol. That's where it all went bad for me. Honestly I just hate the writing of it. Every time theres dialogue it just doesnt make sense and overall I was uninterested in alot of the arcs. But I am a fan of the batman catwoman idea. I wished it worked out better. But just not with tom king. I also dont really like mikel Janin art all that much just feels to cg for me
I'm all about Tom King's Batman. I don't think it fell off at all over 85 issues there were highs and lows of course.
Chaos and Comics you’re either a fool, or a liar...
@@rebelbear816 he is a fan
@@sambatkulkarni9305 sorta. I'm trying to kick Batman really but now fucking Warren Ellis is on a maxi-series so another goddamn year.
I can say I am a fan of more weird and experimental writing... Barthalme ect. I do ***understand*** there is stuff people would hate and the most pop of all comics might not be the place to do these things. But it still sells well and it seems just people on twitter and youtube hate it.
@@ChaosandComics It doesn't sell well at all
@@Throttleback it's the top selling ongoing book. Immortal hulk briefly beat it for a couple weeks and everyone wrote articles about how King was a failure even though for that short period it was *gasp* the second top selling ongoing. Even if it hasn't been first it's always in 70k range which is very good for this day and age.
Finger crossed you have a all in no holds bar overview on the Tom King Batman run when it hits it's true conclusion in Bathroom/Catwoman's finale.
He just couldn't write batman it's as simple as that
So he's like Dan Slott of Batman.
City of Bane was very disappointing in which it was BANE'S story, but he appeared in 4 panels (?) before the conclusion story. He did nothing but sit around before fighting and getting shot.
AS A READER OF BATMAN STARTED BACK IN 1959 HE HAS DESTROYED A GREAT SUPERHERO! THE FALTERING OF EDITOR CONTROL THE FAMILY OF BATMAN. IT MAKE YOU CRY FOR THESE CRIMES.
I just finished the war of jokes and riddles and batman trying to stab the riddler made me realize king’s flawed understanding of the character.
And its a part of Batman's Legacy now. Ick. Lois and Catwoman drunk in the FoS. Along with other things that will make me sad panda. Plus I am overtired of DECONSTRUCTION of the Traditional Heroes and Heroines. Campbellian Heroes and Heroines that is. I love Positive and Flat Character Arcs the most. Current comics definitely rub me the wrong way. Its over-saturated with Dystopia and downer stuff. I am exhausted from it. So I am combating it by writing my own book. A novel that has the assets and tropes I love from the bronze and silver age.
Sounds great. Go for it!
@@michaelpalmer5351 YUP! I already have 8000 words. And its going to have space opera in it too. Because I also Love Green Lantern and Flash Gordon. And John Carter of Mars. The list is endless.
@@fiannawolf Kickass! I hope to be able to read it one day. Never give up.
@@michaelpalmer5351 King added nothing of value to the character or IP in almost 4 years. Amazing.
@@Wes_From_TC I do wonder if the fact that he and many other writers today can only deconstruct and rearrange works that have come before is because they want their 'run' to be the "last word" on the character somehow. As in, we'll tear it down to such a point that nobody could ever reference what we've done or take a different spin on it because it's utterly impossible to build anything out of ruins.
It began to get worse from Jokes and Riddles but I truly gave up during Knightmares - I’m Waiting for Tynion’s run.
Knightmares is as bad & meaningless as a comic story gets.
The true batman WILL always BE denny oneils batman he is the definitive batman he gave us the worlds greatest detective the compassionate human the confident vigilante who will stop at nothing to eliminate war on crime.
Denny is a GOAT for a reason
In issue #12, Bruce describes how he attempted suicide at the age of ten, cutting his wrists with one of his father’s razors. I never hear anyone discussing this, but I feel it’s egregious and worth mentioning.
I have to reread that issue, but I think Tom King sees Batman only as a mentally disturbed man who dresses like a bat to mask his misery.
@@MutantsInDisguise It's because King can only see Batman as HIM so the identity of Batman is basically just Tom and his career as a writer. Or something?
King has had ten-year-old Bruce Wayne, Mister Miracle, and Wally West attempt or commit suicide. Also, in the Booster altered timeline (issues #45 - 47), Hal Jordan shoots himself in the head, as does Bruce Wayne. I feel like King thinks suicide is cool.
@@stanhooper I can only assume he's attempted or thinks about suicide so much that he thinks it's just part of everybody's life.
"What did you do at school today, Susie?"
"Slit my wrists in the bathroom and narrated some poetry over the top of it."
"You and me BOTH!" * laughs *
But in all seriousness, it's tragic. His own nihilistic misery has probably led to genuine despair in hundreds if not thousands of readers.
That's disgusting.
Thank you so much for this video, guys. I have to say this:
1. Tom King truly made me read current Batman comic books after Scott Snyder's not so good run (not terrible though). I still have King's first three books with the character, and are still decent despite his clumsy dialogue. However, The Button is my favorite because I was very invested in Rebirth. Those first 22 issues were decent (I exclude two because Night of the Monster Men was trash).
2. The reason I looked forward to King's run on Batman was his marriage to Catwoman, for the first time in canon. But I got impatient. The War of Jokes and Riddles was the beginning of filler arcs that made no sense. Man, I just wanted Batman and Catwoman to get married. Why extending it until 2018?
3. Batman 50: I reread its two-part prologue, and... OMG, what the hell happened? The ending of 50 was a poor tease, and King showed his true colors by turning Batman into a weakling brute who punched his loved ones. I still love the 54th issue, but most of his post-(no)wedding stories are painful to read. Knightmares and City of Bane are already among the worst Batman tales I've ever read, and here's where Dan DiDio realized King was losing DC money. The fact King was fired from the book was because of sales, not because DiDio cares about fans.
4. Finally, with the 5G coming, my hopes for James Tynion IV on the magazine are pointless now. Let me be clear: I have no issues with Tynion, but the guy will write only 15 issues and the 5G.
5. Is this the worst Batman ever? No. Like I said, there are good things in it, but it's truly painful.
Thank you again for this video, Wes. Greetings from Costa Rica.
Thanks mate! Hope you're living pura vida.
Oh and Corban, you did a great job! I enjoyed your perspective on the dumpster fire of Tom Kings run on Batman. The 21 minutes went by like nothing.
There is a lot of moments of “huh? This batman feels weird” similar feeling like seeing bvs batman killing thugs so randomly
Batman Elmer Fudd One shot was the best (and only good) writing King's done during this run.
But it wasn't in his run though.
I don't know that there was a turning point. I think it was a slow deterioration.
His Batman was eventually consumed by the rising tide of suck.
Of someone writing the "main" Batman comic? This is quite possibly the worst Batman comic in years I've read that's just so godawful. I mean there's usually something redeeming I can find in even the worst runs on Batman save ironically after Finch left Batman: The Dark Knight. At least that run is just garbage you can easily forget. King's run is mucking things up so badly. It feels like an eternity, but Tynion's first issue but it's only a month away. With both he and Tomasi having to clean up this entire mess. I really feel sorry for both writers because damn did King leave Batman in such a shitty status quo and I feel it's only going to get worse.
At least King set the bar extremely low for Tynion's follow-up stories.
Bar? King set a bar? It's so low all Tynion has to do is take a step over it.
The first storylines were 🔥 however. I liked Gotham/Gotham Girl initially & my interest was peaked. Maybe the 100 issues was too daunting a task for Mr King.
on that note, I liked Omega Men
I think King's best suited for 6 issues or less a story.
I would rather face the covid19 all over again than read Tom king's batman.
I stopped reading this arc just on the night of the monster men issue. So pretty early on it lost me, i was thinking of picking up the deluxe editions and reading it again. But now it sounds like I shouldn't
Some people really enjoyed King's take on Batman. It's 100% not for me.
It has been a long time since I read War of Jokes and RIddles but I think it bothered me too when he let them die. But when Batman lied to Bane about a one-on-one fight, as a casual fan I suppose compared to you guys, I thought....what the hell is this? I mean, this doesn't seem like Batman. I tried to justify it as necessary and basically what any sane rational person would do. Lie. But it just didn't feel like Batman to me, even as someone who hasn't read that many comics. Then again even the DCAMU Batman based off the New 52 can sometimes not feel like Batman. Idk if I have a rigid understanding of him because characters should change or you end up with The New Batman Adventures characature of Batman. But Batman TAS felt like Batman and so did even the The Batman (2004) version when inside the costume. It's a delicate balancing act to change. The Thomas Wayne Flashpoint Batman arc was beyond stupid though and I sat bewildered at what I just read, it was so stupid I just said...yeah I'm not reading anymore. I've read a good amount of comics in my life so far I feel and that was ...so bad. I'm only 21 so my memory of the war of jokes and riddles is hazy. I remember not liking it and thinking it was dumb, I mean it's worth a read, it's just strange to me some of the choices, not necessarily bad strange but I don't see Riddler looking like an fboy (it's grown on me now) and talking SO much because he's so interested in solving the Joker's smile problem. I really don't get it. The smile problem felt like a gimmick and I feel was a good idea though because Gotham's Jeremiah Valeska having a "reason" to smile was done better. Even though that reason was his insanity, it was also Batman, at least in Season 4 and the finale..kinda, he smiled when he blew up the bridges. But yeah the season 4 look had dark clothing reminiscent and no smile of this WarofJokesandRiddles look somewhat. Season 5 Joker with the black suit, red/pink shirt and tie and purple gloves looked like Endgame Joker. Anyways I got offtrack 12:36 I thought catwoman and joker lying down were weird but I thought this was a good change.
I agree totally he was a dishonorable sad middle aged crisis going through weak minded borderline coward in this run. I had returned to comics at the wedding and almost left because of it. I honestly think the last half of the run was an add for the bat and cat series. Thank God it's finally over!!!!!!!
Deserves to have been axed much earlier.
He really would’ve been better off making a elseworlds Black Label Batman story not the main continuity
100%
This just in: TOM KING LOOKS LIKE LOUIS CK
Tom King made Batman a side character in his own book. I gave up on issue #9.
Where Did Tom King's Batman Go Wrong?
Answer: Tom King should have never been allowed to write Batman in the first place.
every time i read an issue after "War of jokes and riddles" i felt sad that i wasn't reading Snyder anymore
Haha. I don't get the hype for that story. Made Bruce look like a complete dolt.
@@Wes_From_TC also we only got told about the "war", never actually seen it
I never liked this run at all. I have no idea how I made it through issue 49 before I pulled the plug.
I think a lot of readers wish they bailed at Batman #49.
I’ll probably be the only one looking forward to that Bat cat series lol
I hate it when romance takes a big part of a super hero comic.
the entire comic series was against bruce.
Bleeding cool has a article that came out yesterday about Wonder woman called Could Elysian be part of G5 Wonder Woman? What do you think about this?
I'm.jot really sure. I thought Cassie Sandsmark was replacing WW. But no real details yet.
He made Batman an emo wimp
Essentially
He also made batman a simp
For real! He needs Catwoman to beat Talia for him and she's able to sneak into his mansion 3 times. You also barely see the side of Bruce Wayne that invests in Gotham and it's people.
@@uneazypolarb7691 Batman has been a simp for catwoman before we were born
It fell off after the wedding got cancelled. If I was reading at the time, I would have stopped
I always thought his stories were only mediocre at best. The CatBat love story already annoyed me, but it turned into trash with Jokes& Riddles. City of Bane is unreadable. Thats why I stopped. No matter what book King is always writing crappy dialogue, which a 12 year old could have written better.
Easy, it was in Batman 45, that was the point when things got weird and King's deconstruction started.
Nowhere... It's a great run.
It started
I think Tom King shouldve been let go after issue 50. It was such a massive middle finger to everyone who was excited and left many fans angry. And DC knew this but they kept because of their previous agreement, and look how that turned out. It wasnt until the knightmare arc they finally decided to get rid of him. But if they got rid of him after the wedding backlash, knightmare's disasterious sales wouldn't have occurred. But atleast DC learned their lesson, too late but still
Agreed this is where it finally fell apart. But as Wes mentioned Jokes and Riddles was the first sign. But certainly near the end of the #20's I could feel that this was not going well moving forward. Why did they feel the need to announce or promise him 100 issues? Just start and we'll let you know how many issues you get. Which should have been IMMEDIATELY after #50 for sure.
Should have been future endeavored off Batman much earlier. I agree.
When you started reading it is when it went wrong
Where did he go wrong? He was born.
Tom King wrote it, thats exactly where it went wrong.
You're not wrong....
Is it wrong that I feel bad for the guy?
King was always overhyped.
Every story he writes, especially this Batman run, is him wrestling with his erectile disfunction.
Thank God they put Tynion on the book.
The last good batman was Morrisons epic and even that was shat on in the end with the new 52 garbage. Snyder is pretentious in a different way to king.
A lot of people still love Snyder's run. And he actually created things that will stand the test of time like The Court of Owls.
@@Wes_From_TC The ending of that was a botched in my opinion. The court is embedded in the mythos now and started excellent. The first 9 issues or so were excellent and innovative.
@Naquin Green I've not read it to be honest mate. Think I'll get to it when it's all said and done.
Grant Morrison was THE last great Batman writer. Scott Snyder is average, but weak, and Tom King is unbearable.
Here is another reason to hate this guy; did you ever read his reimagining of the Omega Men? I absolutely hated it. And, was a fan from the Gerber\Giffen run in1980's.
Hiring Tom King was where Tom King went wrong.
Bump.
I didn't like Scott Snyder Batman too much and hate Tom King's run
Agree with you.
Yeah. Snyder was slightly better than King but still just a postmodern sadsack.
@Naquin Green Thank you for asking. I think they suck! It all sucks! He's just another postmodern cynic with no heart and soul - writing purely from his head like a brain in a jar or a computer would do.
@Naquin Green Absolutely! It's the same across most comics now: every hero is a depressed sadsack while the villains are these cool, edgy, unstoppable badasses who just run ramshod over the 'pathetic' notions of good, truth and justice. Urhgh.
@Naquin Green Absolutely. Just stick with the past. Writers then had a connection to Logos (the universal order) and the stories were nourishing to your soul to read.
It's the complete opposite now - in that the modern stories TAKE AWAY from your wellbeing and your soul. It's the reverse process of how it should be and how it always was.
Snyder, King and Didio are just despair merchants pumping despair into the reader because it's all they know how to do. "Villains good and edgy and cool. Heroes weak and bad." It's just a reflection of their own lives and their own utter lack of moral decency and courage. Urgh. x
Kite Man!
I enjoyed I am gotham/I am suicide storyarcs after that it slowly started becoming less and less enjoyable
Death by a thousand pretentious plot points.
I was disappointed with The War Of Jokes And Riddles. Irritated with Kite-Man. Angry at Issue 50. Stuck with it, and more or less happy with issue 85. Looking forward to Batman and Catwoman.
I'm glad King stuck the landing for you! I was disappointed but hope we both enjoy Batman Catwoman.
@@Wes_From_TC Generally not happy with the number of Batman associated titles, which make it hard to follow continuity. Less titles would make better quality stories. Marvel overreached also, first with SpiderMan, then X-Men, then Deadpool etc. Just trying to milk the fans.
I gotta say Bendus is now the worst writer at DC, because he's essentially going to destroy this wonderful universe with his all new all different DC also known as 5G.
King just love to sissify Bruce and turn Selena into the main character in his own book. 🙁
We'll be debating it love on Saturday!!
Unlegalize tom King
Batman 68 😂😂
Tom King 🤮
First
people take comics too seriously sometimes. It's a FICTION story. Take it as it is... i quite enjoy his writing. in 50 years i never bought a Batman comic until he stared writing it. I think Snyder is incredibly mediocre. He would never have been as popular without Capulo. There's SOOOOO MANY better writers out there including King.
Up to the wedding it was going well. The wedding story is basically about nothing, it's full of variant art covers and selina getting talked out of the wedding in like 2 mins and then she leaves. How do you enjoy something like that?
For me that was the deal breaker. The I am trilogy and war of jokes and riddles were good IMO, but after that king just messed up everything
Cope
It's been bad since superfriends issue around 40 something till now....it sucks cause batman my favorite comic book and the art is amazing but the stories just suck
So much beautiful art wasted.