The changes to Smoke and CO alarm regulations that come into force on 1st October 2022.
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2022
- Derek in this video shows landlords, letting agents, tenants and gas engineers what they need to know about the changes to the smoke and carbon monoxide alarm regulations 2022 England that come into force on the 1st of October 2022.
Thank you for updating Derek , you are the best .
We love TOMKAT 😊
Many thanks and as usual, well informative well explained tuition. PLEASE KEEP EM COMING !
Thanks for the update Derek.
Great as always Derek.
I was going to ask a question about the definition of a cooker but I see that you have already answered the question which was asked by Tom Yelf 5 days ago (about 7 comments below), as I only have a gas hob.
Your answer for those who don't want to look too hard stated: "A hob is less likely to create the co at levels more than 30 ppm unless there is an unsafe situation."
Thanks for answering my question before I asked it!
Thanks Derek great video 👍
Absolutely love your content
Thank you for that. Well appreciated
Good work thanks for your efforts 😊
Check the building reg ADJ again as it says should, not shall, therefore it’s only a recommendation for all properties. Someone mentioned how many room sealed boilers have killed people, it’s more than you think but it’s normally due to very bad installation. Flues in Voids was brought to our attention when there was a fatally in London with a modern condensing boiler. By the way I am a CO incident investigator so I do have some background knowledge to the subject. Thanks for the video as it’s good to get the debate out there.
Thanks 👍👍🙏 great video
When the Scottish government draft regulations were being consulted on, they referred to CO "Detectors". I actually wrote in to the consulation to point out that "detector" could well refer to those indicators that you pointed out at the end of the video. They thanked me for my comments, and it seemed like they had a habit of conflating different words in the regulations which seemed similar to untrained people, but actually had completely different meanings.
Nice and concise. Thanks Derek 👍🏻
Asian Jon
Very informative as usual. It does seem a bit bizarre that a gas appliance which produces much more CO in a short space of time to trigger the alarm is exempt! Why not make alarms suitable for such situations, or fit them with an internal switch which can be set to "normal" or "kitchen" mode? I have 3 CO alarms which are Fireangel similar to those shown in the video. 1 in my garage where my combi-boiler is, another in the living room because I have a wood burner and the third in my kitchen where I have a built-in gas oven. My hob is induction. I have never had any issues, in fact the readings read consistently 0 ppm. The only time I had a CO alarm go off was when my neighbour was having a path block paved and the compactor was powered from a petrol generator and the fumes set off my living room alarm! It was summer and the windows were open. I asked the contractors to move the generator and the problem went away. The reason I mention this is that it is not always the obvious that can be hazardous. 😀
Thank you
Thanks 👍
Do co alarm siting requirements where a cooker & boiler are in a kitchen apply the same if its a gas hob only?
Do we need to install one for the gas hob with no boiler in the room ?
Thanks boss 🙏
Excellent video mate, two points my understanding is that carbon monoxide detectors must be installed in the same room as the appliance’s and a minimum of thee meters from the boiler and cocker, I have had a Carbon monoxide detector in my kitchen for about ten years it has a replaceable battery and a test button we test it once a week. And I can assure you that the cooker has never set it off. smoke alarms and fire alarms are now required to be hard wired in order to comply with the IET wiring regulations BS7671 Amendment Two.
Fantastic video and valuable advice . 👍👍👍
Thanks
If boilers fitted in a large old airing cupboard does the detector go in cupboard or outside in hallway? If fitted in a loft again does alarm go in loft or room below?
So I just moved into a new property and they have the co2 alarm already next to the boiler. However Its right next to my French doors entering the garden. Will this need moving then? but it can't go on the ceiling as the boiler and cupboards are in the way and same for the other wall. should I just go out and buy a second one and put it on the opposite wall near the living room (new build no dining room)? Or should I just contact my landlords agent?
Hi I have a combi boiler in the kitchen fitted in a cupboard and an electric hob / oven do I put the co detector in the cupboard with boiler ?
When you say cookers does that include hobs?
In Scotland the legislation states the alarms have to be wireless linked so that if one alarm is triggered all the alarms go off. We now have alarm installation companies going door to door telling people if their alarms are not wireless linked they are non compliant and their house insurance is invalid. Insurance companies have advised they do not require alarms to be wireless linked.
Does the CO alarm rule apply if a balanced flu is used?
So if no C0 alarm fitted the landlord safety repair is a fail ?
Great video and very informative. How ever what you do if gas boiler is installed in a bathroom inside a cupboard (to protect the boiler from moisture), the CO2 alarm would need to be installed outside the cupboard? but could be effected by steam?? what would be the solution in this case???
You follow Manufacturer's Instructions.
Where in the regs does it say you don’t install a Carbon monoxide detector in a kitchen containing a boiler if it also contains a gas cooker please?
A quick google and it seems the gov has no idea how many deaths have been caused by a combi boiler
Good one
Does any of these new changes affect unsafe situations procedures? If a gas engineer does not install one after fitting an appliance what do you do? Also are gas engineers expected to look for co alarms when doing a landlord cert? Will it be a gas reg or a building reg?
It’s under building regs not gas regs at the moment. You don’t have to be a gas engineer to fit or look after them but I guess landlords will want them going into the landlords report to make it easier on them
Can you do a similar video on wales new regulations as we need wired smoke alarms fitted and it's impossible to get a electrician and they are ripping us off by quoting up to ,£200 to fit one. Also they are recommended co in a kitchen
How many smoke detectors are you needing fitted? Do they need wiring in, or are they already wired?
At my last gas Safe check I had the engineer isolate my gas fire as I haven't used it for years and the only time it gets turned on is when they're doing their safety check. So do I have to have a CO2 alarm in that room?
There is a difference between an isolated appliance (merely turning off the gas) or a disconnected appliance, which would require the fire to be disconnected from the gas and the supply pipe capped. An isolated appliance can still be used by turning on the gas and is therefore subject to relevant regulations including provision of a CO alarm. A disconnected appliance cannot be used and does not therefore require a CO Alarm.
Regarding Smoke and heat detectors they will need to be type GRADE D1 in any rental property as per BS5839-6.
So our kitchen in council house just had a new co due to the old one out of date......within the last 2 months.
How did the central heating company not know about the new regs
We have the boiler and gas oven in the kitchen
Better safe than sorry, especially as the Regulations do not prohibit the installation of a CO alarm in the kitchen, they just stipulate where one needs to be installed. Professional judgement is paramount and most modern cookers or ovens will not cause an issue with CO alarms. Aside from the above, the Regulations didn't come into force until 1st October, your CO alarm clearly having been installed beforehand.
Hi Derek, love your content and matter-of-fact attitude. Is there any chance of a video to clarify what is actually law and not just a recommendation re regs/BS as I find myself trying to explain to homeowners and landlords alike what they need to do and what they should do? Many thanks, Keep up the excellent work you do pal
On the to do list
As with the wiring regulations they are not mandatory ie Law .
But private landlords are legally required to insure there domestic properties are fit for purpose and safe for there tenants to live in . That they have to have a gas safety check carried out every 12 months and an electrical installation condition report very 5years . And any issues found they have 28 days to get them fixed and bring the property upto the current standard.
Are battery co and smoke alarms banned ? If so what are merchants going to do with there stock .
Why do you think that ?
where would you put the alarm if the house has an open plan kitchen living dining room?
Where the manufacturers of the alarm says so
Thanks for the update. My tenant has the boiler in the loft. Should I put the Co alarm in the loft or the landing by the loft hatch? Cheers.
I would put one in the loft and one on the landing but technically you don’t need one in the loft because it’s not an habitable space
@@tomkatgastraining Agreed. The one in the loft is really just a back-up. It may be heard, or it may not be. If it is heard, it will give an early warning of a problem, BUT occupiers need to be aware of what to do when a CO alarm goes off. Immediately going to investigate the problem is exactly the WRONG thing to do. You need to get every one out of the property first, with the last person opening windows in every room they pass through. Remember CO is odourless. You can't detect whether there is any CO in a room without a CO detector.
@@tlangdon12 I was thinking of doing a video on what to do when the alarm goes off
Thank-you. I'll put one in both areas to be safe.
So if a privately tenanted property has no CO alarm, is at AR or ID when we do Landlord Safety Certificate?
Thanks
None of them you just notify the landlord. Video coming soon explaining it
Ahhh - so it is still good old BS 5839 then! ....back in the mid 90's I had designed a scanning security alarm, - went on to start building a fire alarm version of the same... - had already repaired the fire alarm on another hotel ...and then Mr fire inspector introduced me to BS 5839.... - the units in my mums hallway are NOT '5839' ...they are the rectangular ones like those which I built my design around! ...looks like the council have JOBS to do! ...as for BS 5839 - I liked the loop in loop out ones with the scotty diodes, - but later saw the ones with a 7 or 8 bit dip switch to set a unique address....
Interesting 👍🏻
It doesn't say which type of alarm mains or battery you need to use? It does.......D1 classification......Mains with battery back.....not user replacable. BS5839-6 2019
I've just been fitting a number of these. The FireAngel instructions say to mount them on the wall at least 150mm from the ceiling and above any windows or doors. What do you do of the window or door is higher than 150mm from the ceiling?
Do all walls in the room with the appliance(s) have windows and doors running all the way round?
@@fluxington Well not normally unless it was a conservatory or a sun room I suppose. However if your comment was more facetious in nature then that is not really relevant. The instructions say the alarm must be fitted - and I quote - 'the alarm should be close to the ceiling, at a height greater than ANY door or window and at least 150mm from the ceiling.' I would argue that most UK housing will have either (If not both) a window or a door within 150mm of the ceiling. I fitted these alarms in six properties last week and had this situation in all of them.
@@raydavison2972 I was simply interested in what your situation was as I had to fit mine on a wall in the utility room, that the boiler was not mounted to, because that wall and another, both have windows and one has a door, and height above those is 100mm, also with pipes running along. I couldn't directly comply with the instructions but had to make a 'best practice' kind of decision.
@@fluxington Apologies if I misread your intent, I get seriously fed up with the trolls on the internet - hard to simply have a constructive conversation nowadays. To answer your question, I needed to do something similar in two installations, either opposite or adjacent walls whilst attempting to stay within the 1m to 3m restriction.
I’m currently fitting co Alarms and upgrading smokes in 4000 council properties!
On your statement regarding not fitting a co alarm in a kitchen that has boiler and cooker why is it aico do a combined heat and co alarm (apart from being able to use in a garage)
The alarms are CO alarms not CO2 and it’s the regulations that made up the cooker exemption not me also heat alarms according to the regs not me are not a replacement for smoke alarms
Yes sorry my bad.
I’m not saying it is you that says about the cooker was just a query regarding it and think you’ve miss-understood me as I’ve not mentioned smoke alarms, a heat alarm has to be installed in a kitchen correct? So why do the likes of Aico sell combined heat and co alarms if the intended use was to not use them in a kitchen?
@@thefowlersadventures6805 because not all kitchens will have a gas cooker but a boiler only, therefore co and heat detection is still required
I'd challenge the CO detector not in the kitchen with the cooker. The regs do say within the same room as appliance and in Wales cookers are not exempt so will need a detector for the cooker. Completely understand why not with the raised PPM at the start, but to stay compliant you'd need it in the same room.
I have had Carbon monoxide detectors installed in my kitchens with cooker hobs and boilers for over 20 years and never had a false alarm. Maybe it’s because we don’t have gas ovens.
Can you clarify that the co needs to be outside of the kitchen if there is a boiler and cooker in the kitchen.. I've just been told by a gas training center that they are ok to go in kitchens ?
The new regulations have exempt cookers
@@tomkatgastraining but if there is a boiler in the kitchen?
@@markbrown2248 then you put it in the living room or dining room
Would you install it in the dining room if it’s an open planned kitchen/diner? Or would you still put it in a separate room?
@@tomkatgastraining how about hobs
I have a boiler in the loft , must it have a Co alarm?
If you want to or you can put it in the bedroom below it or on the landing
Ld1 2 and 3 require the alarms to be interlinked
If you have that many concerns I suggest you read the regulations yourself and follow the manufacturers instructions for the CO and smoke alarms
Is it only a gas safe engineer that can install the Co alarm? Or can anyone do it?
Anyone can do it
What to do if doing landlord cert, inform owner?
Yes
Probably a silly question, but if there is just a hob in a kitchen or hob and boiler (rather than a gas cooker) does the CO alarm still need to be outside of the kitchen?
Also excellent videos, im working my way through my gas portfolio at the moment your videos are really helpful. Thank you.
A hob is less likely to create the co at levels more than 30 ppm unless there is an unsafe situation.
@Tomkat Gas Training Great thanks. I thought that would be the case, but pleased you confirmed it.
Thanks.
What if it’s a void property, therefore no cooker currently connected but the cooker space has a gas connection? How do you know what cooker the the incoming tenant will have?
@@onefortheroad1 install one and note it down on paper work
@@tomkatgastraining Within the Regulations as published the definition of a gas cooker is given as "Gas cooker refers to any apparatus heated by gas and used for cooking food." Professional judgement says otherwise 😂
I wonder if anyone remembers the dreaded Valor gas water heaters in the 1960's. I had one for heating the water for my sink and another in my bathroom for heating bath water. They could be lethal as you should have had an open window when they were in use, but people often did not bother and merrily topped up the bath water and succumbed from CO2. Incredibly not all of these gas water heaters were vented outside the building but even if they were they reduced the amount of oxygen in the room if the door was shut. Imagine the amount of gas combustion products vented into an enclosed space. Happy days!
We had a 'Geyser' for hot water around that time, but it had a vent pipe to outside.
Pretty simple really!
Of course the new regs aren’t going to make every rented property have the alarms hard wired, can you imagine the expense?!
The alarms regulation changing right at a time more people will be looking to have log burning equipment to keep warm. 🤔
Presumably all this is on Ms Truss's list of Red Tape to be cut ?
I had a landlord question why I wasn’t fitting a cheaper CO alarm and I told him that it needed to be seal for life battery, but after check this is actually just a recommendation
Slightly embarrassing when the landlord pointed this out to me
Will the landlord be that cheap if the tenants take the batteries out for the tv remote and the landlord has to keep replacing the batteries when the alarm doesn’t work. Yes it is a recommendation like I say in the video but better of for the landlord if they let you fit the batteries for life one.
@@tomkatgastraining
Hi
As they make the law and “enforce” it locally I contacted my local council “building control” department by email and asked the question:
As a landlord can I install a CO alarm with replaceable batteries?
The answer I got back in writing and I quote:
A replaceable battery operated alarm would not be acceptable.
Theres no arguing with that reply !!
If you’d like a copy of the email let me know.
Regards
What if the customer won't pay for it .
If the customer won't pay for the job to be done to the required standard, what are you doing there?
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BS5839-6 page 23 table 1, all rented exist or new property need Grade D1, Category LD2(D);
Means hard wired unchangeable battery back up with hard wired interlink or radio interlink, kitchen circular space principle habitable room all need fire alarm. Heat and Co fire alarm is fire alarm, not CO alarm.
Just be aware British standards are a guide a code of practice not a regulation.
who is responsible ,
Crazy just state Hard wired battery back up then everyone knows do it once do it correctly as landlords will avoid as much as possible
I've never heard of a REMOTE that uses a 9 volt Smoke Alarm Battery! So how can tenants use them in same? ... I've been using remotes for 42 years, and they mostly use AA or AAA batteries. Some "Credit Card" remotes use Coin Cells.
CO alarms with lifetime batteries last LONGER than 5 years. More like 10 years. Like Smoke Alarms, they have a low battery warning.
I've lived in a Housing Association flat for 17 years. I've been through several CO alarms. They have NEVER sounded .... EVER! The last two had digital displays, and NEVER detected a single molecule of CO! .... "0"
When I was kid, in the 60's and 70's, we had a gas cooker, a gas fire, a gas fridge, and a gas water heater. The appliances were NEVER serviced ... EVER! And obviously, we had no fire alarms or CO alarms! Additionally, the house wasn't rewired for over 50 YEARS! ... And I'm still alive! ... I'm sick to death of the "Nanny State!"
The SNP created law for interlinked smoke, heat and CO alarms in private houses in Scotland has been widely ignored
To be fair in Wales, it's the same
And I guess England will follow
I don't understand why anyone would risk other people's safety. It's not like mains internlinked alarms are that expensive; perhaps £1,000 maximum if there is a lot of electrical installation work and redecorating required. And the majority of the job only needs to be done once. The CO detector in my rental property has a removable head that costs about £75 to replace every 5 years, so £15/yr, and the smoke alarm heads need doing every 10 years, so the cost for me is less than £25/yr. Add the cost of the CP12 and the Periodic Electrical Inspections and I'm spending less than £125 a year of keeping my tenants safe!
The problem will arise when you make an insurance claim for say a burst pipe and the insurance company refuse to pay due to the house not having the heat and Co alarms as per a requirement on t&Cs. So you will be out of pocket .
And that was via an assessor I know .
I don’t think you can ignore it if you rent or let a house out. You’d be taken to the cleaners in the event of an incident.
I'll look forward to carrying a ladder to every job now then
rodney pickering?
The NICEIC say smoke alarms should be top & bottom of stairs.
The Niceic don’t cover bs 5839 so don’t listen to them
Just don’t comply, people should go back to cash in hand, im so tired of all these regulations making life difficult for landlords, come out of the system
More of big daddy government poking their noses into our lives. 🙄
You mean CO, not co. The title looks silly as it is.
Should have listened in chemistry lessons. ;-)
scam...