Thank you Don. For me you absolutely nailed it from 42:20 > "The essence of the cure...Freud in 1914 :...'We must learn to love or we will fall ill'.. " His unconscious broke through his entrenched defences against all things Spiritual (and Jungian). (it might be the definitive Freudian Slip) It's also interesting to consider how much the events in Europe in the first half the 20th Century, from 1914 on, influenced psychotherapeutic thought .
@@L0ND0NMAN Freud's 'slip' was that he inadvertently conveyed a 'spiritual' message. The 'cure' incorporates the spirit, not just the mind. Psyche = Spirit-Soul-Mind
Thanks, this is my favourite video. Very clear explanation. As a Christian (and a theologian), I hear all the time from other Christians the idea that Paul was following his conscience, when he was persecuting early Christians. Most people belive that. Some say that he should have listened to his reason instead. Others even find him not guilty, because he was just "following his conscience". I find this way of thinking disturbing, especially in light of current violent Christian revolts in the USA. They, too, obviously believe that they are being led by their "conscience". That is why I think your distinction between conscience and superego is very, very much needed in our world. I just hope the good word spreads. More philosophers and theologians should become familiar with your work.
I always wanted to ask you, what is the connection between hating oneself and hating others? Is the function of superegl only agression turned against myself, or it is also aggression turned against others? Or is the aggression against other the function of Thanatos, which is a broader concept than superego? Thanks.
Ok, I think I understand now. Superego consists of hatred turned against ourselves, but if we operate in a PS mental position (i.e. if we make the superego our "modus operandi"), than we also commonly hate OTHERS, because we then scapegoat (project our own guilt and sins onto others), in order to defend against the sadistic superego, or we want to sadistically punish others for their sins. I hope I got it right now? :-)
Edited and amended : Apologies pain discomfort and lack of sleep , have just managed to listen to the last half. Edited with follow on 31 mins in can't resist really like the beginning as always a real tour de force of two great pioneers but i cannot help but think we are at a stage analogous only to Newtonian mechanics , where structures are well defined where our primitive inter personally derived models have mapped out the territory which is seen briefly and then submerges being part of something so huge and unbelievably complex as to send most mortals into perplexy and a feint like Fred Hoyle's communication with the black cloud ( echoing St Johns work at this unbelievable depth out of reach for most of us most of the time ) . However I feel the conscience is a more simple perhaps deeper metaphor to that which Freud described as the superego ie i has very ancient ( eternal) functions ie to keep us in the "way", or on what jesus's followers describe as the narrow way and later as societies become more daring challenge punitive measures of previous tribal -magical thinking we have a remnant and now a power full mainly prenatally and sociallly introjected "neurotically overlayed " constructed "superego", the ancient roots of which are the consciences, which we must listen out for , ie repent ! That is I agree and disagree , the conflicts are perhaps like fine tuning , a new thing is uncovered , maybe its anger , then sadness etc wherever the neurotically inclined punitive elements are set against more liberal perspectives so that a truly more integrated and transcendent conscience can evolve , that is fro example conscious decision for a more celibate life or downplay of sex drive against an unhealthy reactive neurotic fear of sext ie arousal , an appreciation of the damage lust can do ( sin) if necessary and or an ability to be open and free to such feelings . The conscience is refined but forever turned back into the Divine Source my belief or reasoned out idea an attempt to stay at a certain stage again , all thses conflicts of course have thier epicentre in very eearly embryonic , childhood traumas as this is where the confsuion started ,k its NOT ok to feel , to want to need etc . I feel also the ego or existential stage in man is a temporary stage like one half way between the caterpillar and the chrysalis , that is it is partially use full but seen from the ultimate's perspective useless, as the Source is all , as Wilber and Upsani might say The original state is the real state ( stateless turyia state) and we fall or move dawn from this for various reasons , here is the tip we are discussing the unseen is much greater in the same way string theory actually encompasses all that went before it , so there are no actual atoms, or even quarks. In this sense the drives are really about the need for Union with God , or ontological wholeness , or as you say the ever elusive "being" state so difficult for adults . All the phenomena we can describe are just modulations of a space like inner dimension that then appears as , in the analytic case ego , superego and id , or when looked at differently like Kleinian model , but yes the conscience is critical to integration without it we must revert to a more primitive , useless ( sin wridden) way of being that is where we are now in the West particularly ( Kali yuga phase ) , excuse the streams of consciousness approach , right arm still disabled etc lack of sleep , R Tuesday 19th follow on : from 41 mins in I really appreciate theses videos , you seem to be suggesting an amalgamation or is it a a total departure from or between a deeper spiritual sense which i believe is the origin or source of true conscience and Freudian mainly ego psychology . Conscience ( the Bible talks of a humble and contrite heart ) , for me this goes hand in hand with a deepening of senstive awareness of the other , empathic atunement and relating an almost sympathic type of union , where i feel as if I am the other and thus harming them is harming myself , as Upsani said we emerge from undifferentiated Union or spirit , it is this confusion with superego that baffles me as if it all most masquerades as the real mcoy but isn't , like a person i knew who would via off into I am "sick " this or that negative sense cf himself rather than stay with deeper feelings which may have led to a change of conscience , how t0o seperate the two or gain graeter clarity seems a monumental task . Also for me the conscience has its roots in something that is impossible to define , like god , spirit , Noumen whereas Freud in my opinion had an over optimistic view of science saw things in a rather Newtonian , Cartesian "this "or that sense defining separating phenomena and positing causation in a very limited bottom up way , so I am not sure they will ever butt together that well , but it seems to me there are a lot of problems . Again for adults speculating on what is going on for children this confusion is seen as being between the internal persecutory "bad breast" versus the "good" breast , thinking this out cannot be as it is described , reason and logic here have there limits products of this new "egoic" emergence , being on a plateaus someway up the mountain and believing we are at the top where the view changes dramatically, Dochgen points this out , Zen Koans and of course the strange parables of Jesus. So this primary dichotomy is an invention , use full ie for stimulating the opposite but ultimately part of the problem ,they must be bound up and in a millisecond good turn to bad , but the reverse switch or transformation is or seems much harder required total honesty in feeling , forgiveness , ability to preserve inside oneself or find a detached sense4 otherwise hate so easily takes over with it self justification this seems more about the ego and its later developments in terms of self persecution , negative self labels and self punishment ( masochism) and the truer voice of conscience , can they in truth be totally separated ? Moses on coming down from the mount seeing the Jews worshiping Baal , quickly gathered his faith full priests around him and ordered them out to slaughter their own kind , very little conscience here . The problem must run so deep this masquerading of insensitive , ego driven flip into the desire to attack either other or through fear turn on oneself or scapegoat , a very sublime modified form of hate often ( in me copying my Mothers need to blame my dad and be critical to the nth degree). Interesting though ... a reinstatement of the vital importance of the conscience as being necessary for wellness, relationships and a correct sense of self .
Jungian individuation is a process that Jung called "doing the moral work." Seeing the fallacies within our family and societal moral systems and freeing ourselves from them. This is a process of deconstructing or at least disempowering the bad object or sadistic super-ego in order to heal the splitting and to allow for integration of the psyche to occur. The superego is fundamentally conscientiousness but has been tainted by the bad object. Perhaps it is not necessarily bad but is simply a function of the mind that allows complex society to occur and has been corrupted by narcissistic abuse and trauma. This is why in Christianity God is not a nurturing Earth mother but a tyrannical, jealous, war god that abandoned his son Jesus in his time of need, banishes and scapegoats his son Lucifer that was at one time his golden child, who killed us with a flood, who ruthlesly judges and condemns his children and yet expects them to serve and adore him.
Its late and despite not sleeping I am still intrigued by your idea, but feel maybe our bias towards Freudian qausi scientific hegemony is a certain path we have taken , way back in ancient times the Judaeo_ Christian system first began to adopt a strict moral code if that is the right term and even today we are loosely still captivated by this frame , what is this trajectory had developed as from St Paul and Lukes narrating the i9deal way of living then perhaps what we termk today superego and what you have rightly stated as a missing element that of conscience would not only look the same but be alllmost identical ? To me this fits with the rather flat land ideology that psychoanalysis has about "sex" ie celibacy is abnormal that transformation of sex energy is weird or odd, I even heard a senior analyst talk about masturbation as if a client should do this and he waas somehow odd for not indulging . To me now I am beginning to see we have invested our whole way of life all most in the scientific hegemony in the can't currently detect or measure it and therefore it doesn't exist , so it as if we are re wring an organism through such hypotheses , back then it was obvious strange ideas quickly went out of vogue but today we ignore say classic experiments like Schrodinger's cat hoping they will go away or make strange assumptions . All is not as it appears . To this I might finally add having studied meditated on some of the great texts and teachers words , I am convinced science appears more and more like a tautologous form of pattern making , as in the famous domestos kills all known germs dead , we have been brain washed . Reading this morning I-am that in my opinion one of the great modern spiritual classics ie the talks of nisgadata maharaja there is something very strange going on , whether I am just seeing more or am able now to understand for the first time or rather glimpse what he was on about .Judaeo -Christian morals are allmost dead , who waits tilll they are married to have sex , who views sin as except if you are a staunch believer 90% I guess of the population feel we should move with the times , Freud resisted this perhaps his Fathers zealous punitive atitude being a Jew was too much and so he had to prove him wrong , he was well versed in the Bible but chose to cut himself off from his youth even burning alot of his papers , something very strange has happened and out of his psychoanalysis was born , umm.......
Please keep posting videos Don. I discovered you recently and I’m already looking forward to more.
Thanks Elizabeth, will do.
Downloaded to listen later. The whole framing of the question-“visions of the human predicament”-is a brilliant and needed interrogation.
Wonderful lecture. Be curious about your opinion on Chasseguet-Smirgel's book on the ego ideal
I really like your videos. For me it has been a discovery. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
You are most welcome.
Excellent! Thank you!
Thank you Don.
For me you absolutely nailed it from 42:20 > "The essence of the cure...Freud in 1914 :...'We must learn to love or we will fall ill'.. " His unconscious broke through his entrenched defences against all things Spiritual (and Jungian). (it might be the definitive Freudian Slip)
It's also interesting to consider how much the events in Europe in the first half the 20th Century, from 1914 on, influenced psychotherapeutic thought .
How/ what does make his frase a "Freudian slip "? Can you please elaborate on that as I couldn't see it..
@@L0ND0NMAN Freud's 'slip' was that he inadvertently conveyed a 'spiritual' message. The 'cure' incorporates the spirit, not just the mind. Psyche = Spirit-Soul-Mind
@@carlt570 Thank you.
Thanks, this is my favourite video. Very clear explanation. As a Christian (and a theologian), I hear all the time from other Christians the idea that Paul was following his conscience, when he was persecuting early Christians. Most people belive that. Some say that he should have listened to his reason instead. Others even find him not guilty, because he was just "following his conscience". I find this way of thinking disturbing, especially in light of current violent Christian revolts in the USA. They, too, obviously believe that they are being led by their "conscience". That is why I think your distinction between conscience and superego is very, very much needed in our world. I just hope the good word spreads. More philosophers and theologians should become familiar with your work.
Naturally, I agree. Exactly. I share your hope. Thanks
I always wanted to ask you, what is the connection between hating oneself and hating others? Is the function of superegl only agression turned against myself, or it is also aggression turned against others? Or is the aggression against other the function of Thanatos, which is a broader concept than superego? Thanks.
Too complicated to answer here. You need more study.
Ok, I think I understand now. Superego consists of hatred turned against ourselves, but if we operate in a PS mental position (i.e. if we make the superego our "modus operandi"), than we also commonly hate OTHERS, because we then scapegoat (project our own guilt and sins onto others), in order to defend against the sadistic superego, or we want to sadistically punish others for their sins.
I hope I got it right now? :-)
@@dejanpil4847 Yes, that’s pretty much it
41:00 Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. - Nietzsche
Excellent. Thank you
Edited and amended :
Apologies pain discomfort and lack of sleep , have just managed to listen to the last half.
Edited with follow on
31 mins in can't resist really like the beginning as always a real tour de force of two great pioneers but i cannot help but think we are at a stage analogous only to Newtonian mechanics , where structures are well defined where our primitive inter personally derived models have mapped out the territory which is seen briefly and then submerges being part of something so huge and unbelievably complex as to send most mortals into perplexy and a feint like Fred Hoyle's communication with the black cloud ( echoing St Johns work at this unbelievable depth out of reach for most of us most of the time ) .
However I feel the conscience is a more simple perhaps deeper metaphor to that which Freud described as the superego ie i has very ancient ( eternal) functions ie to keep us in the "way", or on what jesus's followers describe as the narrow way and later as societies become more daring challenge punitive measures of previous tribal -magical thinking we have a remnant and now a power full mainly prenatally and sociallly introjected "neurotically overlayed " constructed "superego", the ancient roots of which are the consciences, which we must listen out for , ie repent !
That is I agree and disagree , the conflicts are perhaps like fine tuning , a new thing is uncovered , maybe its anger , then sadness etc wherever the neurotically inclined punitive elements are set against more liberal perspectives so that a truly more integrated and transcendent conscience can evolve , that is fro example conscious decision for a more celibate life or downplay of sex drive against an unhealthy reactive neurotic fear of sext ie arousal , an appreciation of the damage lust can do ( sin) if necessary and or an ability to be open and free to such feelings . The conscience is refined but forever turned back into the Divine Source my belief or reasoned out idea an attempt to stay at a certain stage again , all thses conflicts of course have thier epicentre in very eearly embryonic , childhood traumas as this is where the confsuion started ,k its NOT ok to feel , to want to need etc .
I feel also the ego or existential stage in man is a temporary stage like one half way between the caterpillar and the chrysalis , that is it is partially use full but seen from the ultimate's perspective useless, as the Source is all , as Wilber and Upsani might say The original state is the real state ( stateless turyia state) and we fall or move dawn from this for various reasons , here is the tip we are discussing the unseen is much greater in the same way string theory actually encompasses all that went before it , so there are no actual atoms, or even quarks.
In this sense the drives are really about the need for Union with God , or ontological wholeness , or as you say the ever elusive "being" state so difficult for adults .
All the phenomena we can describe are just modulations of a space like inner dimension that then appears as , in the analytic case ego , superego and id , or when looked at differently like Kleinian model , but yes the conscience is critical to integration without it we must revert to a more primitive , useless ( sin wridden) way of being that is where we are now in the West particularly ( Kali yuga phase ) , excuse the streams of consciousness approach , right arm still disabled etc lack of sleep , R
Tuesday 19th follow on : from 41 mins in
I really appreciate theses videos , you seem to be suggesting an amalgamation or is it a a total departure from or between a deeper spiritual sense which i believe is the origin or source of true conscience and Freudian mainly ego psychology .
Conscience ( the Bible talks of a humble and contrite heart ) , for me this goes hand in hand with a deepening of senstive awareness of the other , empathic atunement and relating an almost sympathic type of union , where i feel as if I am the other and thus harming them is harming myself , as Upsani said we emerge from undifferentiated Union or spirit , it is this confusion with superego that baffles me as if it all most masquerades as the real mcoy but isn't , like a person i knew who would via off into I am "sick " this or that negative sense cf himself rather than stay with deeper feelings which may have led to a change of conscience , how t0o seperate the two or gain graeter clarity seems a monumental task .
Also for me the conscience has its roots in something that is impossible to define , like god , spirit , Noumen whereas Freud in my opinion had an over optimistic view of science saw things in a rather Newtonian , Cartesian "this "or that sense defining separating phenomena and positing causation in a very limited bottom up way , so I am not sure they will ever butt together that well , but it seems to me there are a lot of problems .
Again for adults speculating on what is going on for children this confusion is seen as being between the internal persecutory "bad breast" versus the "good" breast , thinking this out cannot be as it is described , reason and logic here have there limits products of this new "egoic" emergence , being on a plateaus someway up the mountain and believing we are at the top where the view changes dramatically, Dochgen points this out , Zen Koans and of course the strange parables of Jesus.
So this primary dichotomy is an invention , use full ie for stimulating the opposite but ultimately part of the problem ,they must be bound up and in a millisecond good turn to bad , but the reverse switch or transformation is or seems much harder required total honesty in feeling , forgiveness , ability to preserve inside oneself or find a detached sense4 otherwise hate so easily takes over with it self justification this seems more about the ego and its later developments in terms of self persecution , negative self labels and self punishment ( masochism) and the truer voice of conscience , can they in truth be totally separated ?
Moses on coming down from the mount seeing the Jews worshiping Baal , quickly gathered his faith full priests around him and ordered them out to slaughter their own kind , very little conscience here .
The problem must run so deep this masquerading of insensitive , ego driven flip into the desire to attack either other or through fear turn on oneself or scapegoat , a very sublime modified form of hate often ( in me copying my Mothers need to blame my dad and be critical to the nth degree).
Interesting though ... a reinstatement of the vital importance of the conscience as being necessary for wellness, relationships and a correct sense of self .
13:05 a neat illustration for this would be the meaning of the words symbolic (to throw together) and diabolic (to throw apart.
Very nice
Jungian individuation is a process that Jung called "doing the moral work." Seeing the fallacies within our family and societal moral systems and freeing ourselves from them. This is a process of deconstructing or at least disempowering the bad object or sadistic super-ego in order to heal the splitting and to allow for integration of the psyche to occur. The superego is fundamentally conscientiousness but has been tainted by the bad object. Perhaps it is not necessarily bad but is simply a function of the mind that allows complex society to occur and has been corrupted by narcissistic abuse and trauma. This is why in Christianity God is not a nurturing Earth mother but a tyrannical, jealous, war god that abandoned his son Jesus in his time of need, banishes and scapegoats his son Lucifer that was at one time his golden child, who killed us with a flood, who ruthlesly judges and condemns his children and yet expects them to serve and adore him.
Its late and despite not sleeping I am still intrigued by your idea, but feel maybe our bias towards Freudian qausi scientific hegemony is a certain path we have taken , way back in ancient times the Judaeo_ Christian system first began to adopt a strict moral code if that is the right term and even today we are loosely still captivated by this frame , what is this trajectory had developed as from St Paul and Lukes narrating the i9deal way of living then perhaps what we termk today superego and what you have rightly stated as a missing element that of conscience would not only look the same but be alllmost identical ?
To me this fits with the rather flat land ideology that psychoanalysis has about "sex" ie celibacy is abnormal that transformation of sex energy is weird or odd, I even heard a senior analyst talk about masturbation as if a client should do this and he waas somehow odd for not indulging .
To me now I am beginning to see we have invested our whole way of life all most in the scientific hegemony in the can't currently detect or measure it and therefore it doesn't exist , so it as if we are re wring an organism through such hypotheses , back then it was obvious strange ideas quickly went out of vogue but today we ignore say classic experiments like Schrodinger's cat hoping they will go away or make strange assumptions . All is not as it appears .
To this I might finally add having studied meditated on some of the great texts and teachers words , I am convinced science appears more and more like a tautologous form of pattern making , as in the famous domestos kills all known germs dead , we have been brain washed .
Reading this morning I-am that in my opinion one of the great modern spiritual classics ie the talks of nisgadata maharaja there is something very strange going on , whether I am just seeing more or am able now to understand for the first time or rather glimpse what he was on about .Judaeo -Christian morals are allmost dead , who waits tilll they are married to have sex , who views sin as except if you are a staunch believer 90% I guess of the population feel we should move with the times , Freud resisted this perhaps his Fathers zealous punitive atitude being a Jew was too much and so he had to prove him wrong , he was well versed in the Bible but chose to cut himself off from his youth even burning alot of his papers , something very strange has happened and out of his psychoanalysis was born , umm.......