I have a Shannon 43 which checks all but two of your boxes - independent masts and protected helm. I plan to cross the Atlantic within the next three seasons, your comments are well taken. We have been caught off-shore in unexpected 50 knot gusts, 4 meter very steep seas, and horizontal rain for two days and had no concerns but a bullet proof covered helm station would have been amazing.
All boats are a compromise, ours is also missing some of these things, yours is already much much better than most. It's funny I've read and replied to all the comments and a pattern is emerging. People who disagree say things like "look at the imoca chalange" or "these boats are too slow" etc. People who agree say "I have been on a Storm " hehe 😆 cheers mate fair winds 💪
I agree the boat we are currently looking at is 30 tons, carries 950 gallons of diesel, 900 gallons of water, and a 250 gallon holding. It has a watertight engine room. A full encapsulated keel. A protected exterior and interior helm. Made of solid FG. I unlike most have seen and experienced and survived a storm with 30-45 foot breaking waves totally engulfing the boat and knocking us down 3 times. That was in a moody carbineer. And despite that boats weathering hell it met its demise at the dock when a storm came thru and broke the dock and it smashed against the rocks. I would add a few things. 1. Hand holds everywhere and not too much open space where you can fly across the cabin. 2. How much water can come in and it will still float. The boat we are looking at has closed cell foam in voids and the first one was demonstrated by the builder to be completely filled with water and still floating despite 30 tons of displacement. And the protected watertight engine room allowed it to both still sail and motor. 3. While I agree with the 2 masts in case of dismasting at a minimum you should have a cutter rig so you can fly across storm jib stay sail. Also you should have enough engine power and again enough fuel to make it to your destination on fuel alone. Boat we are trying to buy has a range of 3600 NM on a full fuel tank. 4. Bow reinforced for ice or other hard things. 5. Extremely strong well protected rudder. In recent years other than hitting something rudders being ripped out is the 1 cause of sinking. 6. Freeboard. Yes you trade safety for Windage. But when the seas get high enough and they will you don’t want water to come inside from the top sides. 7. Length to beam ratio. Modern boats are awesome and I love being on them in calm weather or nice anchorages. But their beam while providing awesome static stability becomes a downfall in heavy seas. Narrower ratios allow the boat to cut thru the waves better. 8. Fully autonomous you either need a big budget to run generator or you’re going to need solar and a good sized battery bank that can run everything on board without needing to plug in to a dock. For our mission we choose boats like this because we want to keep people safe even if out of nowhere a perfect day on the bay turns into hell on the water.
Wow, amazing comment. Thank you. Some of these points were in the list but I figured i had ranted for long enough loooll but most of your points i didn't even think about them. Very good information think i need to redo the video loool cheers mate. I hope you get that vessel l, a assume it's a one off, right?
@ it’s not a one off. It was made in small numbers. I believe less than 10 of the model were made by the boat builder and the first one they built was brought to the Annapolis boat show from its factory in Jacksonville with a sailing journalist on board. It has its drawbacks. It’s huge 57 LOA 50 LWL. So we won’t be visiting marinas often unless we are doing therapy sessions for ease of boarding. But surviving a near hurricane level storm that came from nowhere my carbineer felt too small. Most production boats rely on the CE rating. But most people only see the A they don’t look to see how much weight that rating is at. And when you load the boat up you often find yourself dropping to the B category.
Thank you for giving us a lot of well-founded passionate opinions, I'm surprised that all the comments are made by balanced people, not a single narcissistic response, this is an almost impossible achievement, so thanks to all the respondents too.
That was the most coherent and sensible boat advice I've heard so far. I did see some of the info by my self because some features simply FEEL safer- cockpit covered, internal helm. Big keel protecting rudder , two masts and so on. Now, give us a smile captain Haddock ...... 😉 These modern , fast, massive sloops are beautiful ,though. Canova 142 from Baltic yacht 😍 . I guess they are more show offs than safe white water SYs
Thomas from the youtube channel "Sailing with Thomas" has made some interesting takes in his latest 5 videos on very similar concerns that this video raised. I'd recomend you take a look. (I'd love to leave a link but YT wouldn't let that happen...) Topics like how he battled through a 70+ knot storm in a Bavaria 55
I've seen all of his videos. We disagree on some things And agree on others. He likes dual unprotected rudders I don't. I like dual masts, he doesn't. But desagreeing is ok we would still have some beers together. Cheers mate fair winds 💪
I do agree with you about the keel and you left off the protected rudder as well. I will say I will never go offshore on a keel bolted to the hull boat, but a keel bolted to a keel stub, that is much much stronger. If you go offshore on a boat with an unprotected rudder, you better know at least in theory how to steer without it. An open cockpit does have it's advantages in white water...it will drain 20 times faster than a protected cockpit. You just need to make sure you don't have anything in the cockpit that you can't afford to have washed out to sea that isn't bolted down. Fact is, now days, with weather forecasts and weather windows and patterns, you can sail the coconut rum line and never see anything more than 30 knots and 14 foot seas if you are a good captain. The old saying: a good captain knows when to stay in port and when to leave port. But if you want to get out of the tropics, yeah, a boat with a encapsulated keel would be best. If the keel is encapsulated, you can be assured the rest of the boat is good enough.
Wow. Love the point about the draining.on the cockpit. I haven't thought about that. I guess that's why center cockpits are always small. So not much water can fit in there. Thank you for your comment totally agree 👍 fair winds mate.
After 20 years offshore North Sea. I understand that you are not an naval arcitecht . My priorties is a boat that is self rightening from 180 degrees and can function if complete black out. That can survive a hit from log, container and so on. A boat that takes care of me. You don't know much about wind wane steering or auto pilotes either. Good luck. By the way, my boat has a capsize factor og 1,56. By designation 'a very heavy blue water cruiser', and is built for icy waters up north. 42 feet, 17 tons, 6 kW gen.set and 140 hp motor. Built in steel. We have had breaking seas rolling over the boat, and it heeled 45 degrees.
Yep you are 100% correct. This video should be much longer and I had form stability vs displacement in the features list, but i figured i had pissed people enough LoL merry Christmas
@reversingentropy You are an interesting caracter :-) If you are in the market for tough sailing boat for arctic areaes, why on earth focus on badly insulsted glass fiber? When there are tons of aluminium and ,above all, steel yachs available? But you really pissed me off, congratulations !
@svhulda6157 That's very simple, very low budget. I don't have the dream boat. Ohh I wish I had something like the pelagic. But for now I have to make due with what is available and chose the boat that has the most things out of the desired caracteristics for I price we could afford. My intention was not to annoy you, I'm sorry 😔 cheers mate, Fair winds.
@reversingentropy Do as I did. Buy some tones of steel plates and make your own sailer. I overhauled a GM diesel motor 140 hp. Second hand genoa winches from NZ Endeavour (something like that) an around the world sailer. Eberspächer 4 kW heater. Minimum 1.5 inches foam insulation to .5 m below water line, deck saloon roof 4 inches. No condensation. Bow is 12 mm St56 steel and so on. 650 liter diesel in main- and day tanks, diesel polishing system. Cutter rig, in 20 m/s wind we have made a speed through 4 metres waves of 6 knots just by the jib. Wind 45 deg on the bow, approx. No genoa or main sail. No need for two masts. We can tack with just the jib. Never a drop of water inside. We can sit protected in the deck saloon an sail the boat via SimradRobertson auto pilot. 13 M long, 4 M wide, 2,25 M deep fully loaded. I am not easily offended. Fair winds :-)
@svhulda6157 wowww that sounds awesome. I have though many times on building my own "pelagic" but I don't want to use up 5 or 10 years of my 40ties on the hard. I think for now at least just going with what we have, and being aware of the limitations is the best option. Maybe we'll meet out there some day. Cheers, fair winds 💪
The "White Water" boat you are describing sounds slow 🐌 and would be incapable of getting out of the way of a storm. The one safety feature you seem unaware of is speed.
I hear you. But... The boat im describing doesn't exist the closest thing i know is Chip Novak Pelagic, and it is not slow at all. Getting out of the way of a storm is a flawed idea, there is no such thing, when a 200mile storm front is coming towards you at 50kts an hour. You can have a planing hull, if you have no where to hide you are going thu the storm. Then you will wish you had a battle Axe that can keep you safe. Every sailor I know disagrees with this idea that you can dodge storms with a fast boat. Every boat sales person loves it. You can plan shorter windows. But you cant be sure, and therefore neglect safety. Cheers mate fair winds
I agree and given a perfect world I would try and include all these features in an expedition yacht. That is designed to spend several weeks at sea far from any rescue. But since most people’s actual sailing will be sailing warm Caribbean waters between the islands and mainland of Florida or maybe the more adventurous might take longer offshore routes to sail to Europe or north to road island (Newport) They might sail 636-mile ocean sailing from Rhode Island, USA to Bermuda. Which is not nothing but if you do it as part of the Newport to Bermuda race another competitor most likely will be close enough to response to a distress call. My point is the reason so many of these boats are rated as blue water or class A ocean class boats is THAT is the type of sailor they are building these boats for. BUT… I have looked and so many do not even meet one of the requirements and that is a capsize ratio below 2.0 so many of these new cruising boats don’t even qualify to register to enter the Newport ti Bermuda race. But I do see it from the production boat builders perspective of giving the buyer what they want and nothing more. The wealthy buyers looking to buy a brand new boat (builders don’t give a crap about what is in the used boat market) their goal is to make luxurious boats they want boats one or two people can sail but will accommodate 2-3 couples on holiday. (Charter market much bigger also so more cabins and more comfortable stay in the Caribbean island hopping with easy access to the water is far more important then the ability to cross oceans then probably over 60 percent of production boats today are built in Europe. So sailing the med around the Greek islands in comfort is far more likely to be where most of these boats will be. Then a few will cross the down wind crossing to the Caribbean then stay there. And the owner probably will hire a delivery crew to get it there and they will fly in. Or they may sail the down wind trade winds crossing then leave the boat fly home because their vacation is over and a delivery captain and crew will sail it back to Europe. On the longer return trip. My point is the market for boats with all the features you mention is SMALL nit many people will actually make multiple long ocean passages (themselves anyway) their boat may but a delivery captain will be the one making them. And usually these captains and crew they hire are experienced salts that will make sure that boat is going to make it so they can get paid. But it’s a one way trip for them they will make the passage then they walk away leaving the boat for the owner. So again not doing long passages then another and another and another all on the same boat and possibly staying onboard the whole time in remote locations. So there is a difference in requirements. If you sail one long passage from one port to another port vs sailing from a port to a remote location stay there (with no provisioning possible there) you must not only carry everything to get there but also get to your next destination. The weather window is irrelevant also because you may be in a remote location with nowhere to run. Especially in the higher latitudes storms and big seas are frequent and any extended stay in those areas means you WILL be out in at least one storm. So the my boat is fast so I can finish passages faster and avoid bad weather does not make any sense at all as your sailing where NO boat not even huge ships that can go faster then even the fastest cruising boats still get caught at sea in bad weather conditions.
Amazing comment, thank you for taking the time to write it. Absolutely spot on. The marketing suits the market.... And then some people believe the marketing 🤣 I believe it's better to go small go now, than not going at all, but people shoul be ware of what they got and plan accordingly. Cheers mate. Fair winds 💪
It’s always good to have a discussion. Most machines are operated by people whose ability doesn’t match its capabilities, this is true most of the time. Whether it’s a sports car, a motorcycle , or Boat. Practice and education is 95% of everything, and most accidents are not accidents they are preventable.
I like a solid mast slightly shorter than normal, stepped around midships and cutter rigged. Aluminium is the business for an expedition and many fine vessels are custom made
Love the video, and you are absolutely right! But, everyone buys on a budget, e.g. for my last one, a AMEL Kirk, I had to carry extra water, and it had a bolted keel (with the bolts ready for inspection in the freshwater tank), but I was very aware of it.....and I´d never say it´s as solid as a nice builtin long keel. And I´d never take her anywhere near ice! Or even cold water..... ;-) Merry XMas!
My mistake was pissing people off before the birth of RUclips. I pissed off enough owners of French boats back in the 1980s to be a YT super star. After 12 ocean crossings including the Southern Ocean, my best advice is never sail in white water or as my brother taught me, “Wise men don’t sail upwind”.
Sometimes we don't get to choose 😆 hey that is a mistake you can fix. Just klick upload,I know I would love to hear your story 🫡 cheers mate, fair winds 💪
And incidentally I have the same issues with a Covic Victor as I do with a Westsail 32. The boat just does not sail well enough in light air. Not all disasters happen when its windy. I have lost count of the times the engine has been out of action in my last 40 years of sailing due to water or bug in the fuel, or shit in the starter motor, or fishing line around the prop, or whatever. The boat must be able to sail in very light wind. When you look at experienced sailors who do big miles, by the time they get to their second or third boat they are looking for something that sails well in light breeze. The rig on the colvic is just too small, the beam is too wide and the boat is too heavy to sail well in light or indeed any wind. Sailing performance is as much a contributor to safety as a number of other factors. While the boat must be robust enough to remain intact, extra weight only increases load on the rig, steering and crew and so must be avoided as much as possible. A heavy boat for its length requires more power to push through the water so loads on halyards, clutches. winches and sheets are increased, fuel consumption is increased, engines and propellers have to be bigger, fuel tanks must be larger....its easy to descend into a doom loop of spiralling weight increases and slower sailing. You should really examine the work of Joe Adams, Graham Radford, Chuck Paine, Carl Schumacher. They have for 30 years been designing long light boats of moderate beam which are fast, easy to sail and steer and very safe. You should also look at the work of Steve Dashew. My point is that its not a chouce between heavy displacement yachts lije armoured vehicles and modern underbuilt production yachts with keels bolted through the hull and glued on grids. There is another way with performance oriented hulls and rigs which give safety through sailing ability while being very robust and definitely fit for purpose. My own Sundeer 60 was built in an era when ABS standards were in effect. The construction of the whole boat is to ABS standard, except for the stressed parts around the chain plates, main bulkhead, rudder, mast step, keel step and entire forward ⅓ of the boat. Most of that is to double or triple ABS scantlings. Despite this the boat has a D/L ratio of 80 and will routinely do 200 miles/day. Our best days are over 230 miles. I often sail the boat by myself without difficulty as does my wife who nobody would describe as an athlete.
All you said seems very reasonable to me. I appreciate diferent opinions on the matter. The only thing I have to disagree a little bit is with the low performance on the colvic. I don't know the 32 but the 40 sails rather well, it's not going to win any races but easy 7kts with 15 on the beam. 5 with 10. I can't ask for much more from this hull length, It's not bad to wind as well. Down wind we do need the Spinnakers though. Before this we had a long keel evasion 32 that thing would not move unless it was in a Gale lol. Anyway my issue is more with the lies of the modern boat manufacturers, I should have communicated that better in the video. I'll try to do better in the future. Cheers mate, fair winds 💪
Not Rich, i wish I was 🤣 just trying to continue the journey using the few ressorces we have as wisely as possible. Our Boat doesn't have all these things but I wish it did. Cheers mate, Fair winds 💪
I'm glad you have your priorities, there not for everyone. First there's always a safer boat and all things fail. Second if safety is your concern you should not go out in white water regardless of your boat. Third it's about risk verses reward how much can you spend verses the risks your willing to take. I'm sure my aluminum, swing keel, deck stepped mast is cringe worthy but I trust her ie.. risk vs award. I do hope you get that boat that takes you through the Drake and north west passage. Cheers
Wise words. It is true that no adventure is risk free, the issue is when Truth gets replaced by marketing speak and new sailors get cough out in a bad situation. FYI aluminum swing keel is awesome 😎 the ability to beach yourself is priceless. Cheers mate, fair winds 💪
Jugs is a safety feature as well as a storage feature. No blue water, or white water as you would say, has tanks for gas, but yet most cruisers use gas for the outboard. Your tanks will do you no good if you need to take water with you, like say a beach outting or a sinking boat. You also need jugs for the places you have to hand carry diesel. I'm starting to wonder if they guy has been anywhere. I have many jugs on my Whitby 55 which is a much more white water boat than yours and I have 300 gallon water and fuel tanks so capacity is not the reason I have them.
I see what you are saying. Notice i said "on the Deck" of course we Carry Jerry cans with gas for the dinghy, we have 100 liters of water in jerry cans for an emergency. But they are all stored in safe places, not latched to the deck. Im sure you know what i mean. Boats with 100l Diesel tank and 20 jericans hanging from the lifelines 🤣. Cheers mate. Fair winds 💪
I get some of your points but i think the owners bias to for example the keel type goes both ways, more then once i've been judged by owners of "bluewater yachts" being proud of their integral keel while their keel was compromised. in one case they had delamination and water ingress so the ballast was rotting and the other had broken stringers so the integral keel swung underneath the boat flexing the hull but hey it's Bluewater yacht it's indestructible! Meanwhile my bolton lead finkeel is fixed with 20 stainless 24mm bolts to a 20mm thick aluminium plate welded in the aluminium hull with a grid of stringers and lengthwise frame rails to stiffen the hull it's the stiffest most rugged feeling boat I've ever sailed. Guess wich one in trust, i think its more important to get a good example of the boat that fits your requirements, good bolton keels dont fall off, good spade rudders dont fall off.. A bad spade rudder can fall off or damage the hull, but a bad skeg hung rudder will not outperform it when hitting a UFO. Get a well designed and well maintained vessel, maintain it, minimise failure points and know the limits of yourself and your vessel. I think is more important to know what youve got and take its pros and cons in consideration and sail it like it was intended. I trust my bolton fin keel, spade rudder, cutter rigged, aluminium sailboat with my life in the worst weather but i sure hope i never have to endure it.
Very well said. I agree with you and i should have made it more clearly on the video that not all Bolt on keels are the same and not all integral keels are Good. The comparison should always be between the best bolt on keel and the best integral keel and the best swing keel etc. I would love to have an aluminum boat, congratulations 🙏 thats another difficult discussion, I have a thick fiberglass hull but for strength and safety i would prefer aluminum. And I'm very conscious I don't have the best option... And then you see Dick Beaumont "Kraken builder" state that aluminum is no good to justify the kraken hull material 🤦♂️ I guess my point is people should be more open to say, my boat is not the best at everything. Cheers mate, marry Christmas 🎄
@@reversingentropy thanks, yes aluminium is great but as all materials do it has its drawbacks. I think Dick Beaumont makes some valid points but in my opinion overstates some cons of aluminium, understates some pros and makes some bold statements I question but that's okay, he's a good sailor and a good salesman. That said I think the Kraken yachts are quite cool and I do not dislike fiberglass boats, I actually came to appreciate them more, some years ago I only wanted aluminium or steel but I couldn't stand the constant rust battle and the lack of performance on steel yachts so aluminium it had to be. But now I see the time and place where fiberglass boats make sense and wouldn't shy away from one. I think you're right it's good to be realistic about the capability of your vessel and crew, like you said I really like my boat and in my opinion all boats are compromises and my boat is the best compromise for my use but not the perfect vessel for everyone or every situation. I wanted a combination of speed and safety which is a hard combination and tends to get in the way of comfort. Anyway thanks for the videos, happy holidays!
@@reversingentropy hahaha, would be funny to be in a podcast I love to talk about this subject but as i have no name of any significance to anyone, my opinion is just another opinion. Tough call I think it will all depend on what i want to do at that point in life, for right now the aluminium boat is perfect we live on the boat in North Sea area and mainly want to travel North, I think we'll keep this boat for quite some time we like it a lot. it's a long term boat to us, big enough (45ft), strong enough, certainly fast enough and handles great. But let's say we change plans in 10 years and have a bigger budget I'm open to reconsider hull material. If money is no object I could see myself either in a clapped out aluminium expedition vessel or in a luxury fast fiberglass cruiser all depends on where I want to go and under what circumstances but one thing is for sure I like you get somewhere at a decent pace and with good handling so probably no battleship nor a dock queen.
@sebastiaanhoenderdos7458 I can tell you I'm a bit sick of all the Podcasts with all the same established people, it's become borring 😆 maybe what we need is a bunch of "nobody's" I have no experience in Podcasts I only did one with my friend Giorgio who's boat had burned down it was fun 👌If you ever change your mind and want to try a podcast with another nobody, let me know lol Yes life finds a way to change priorities. So we are both waiting for chip's pelagic 77 to become available 😆😆😆
Great video, I totally agree with all your all points for a so called white water boat, but how many boats tick those boxes and secondly how many people can afford that type of vessel There’s been so many boats that don’t even tick a third of what is said here for white water boats but they all circumnavigate the world over and over again I agree with your opinion I would want that boat your describing & realistically the boat is as safe as the captain & crew probably the most important factor in safety for me Great video wishing you fair winds ⛵️ Thank you Merry Xmas
Thank you... I believe the problem is not the people it's te manufactureres. People buy a million dollar + boats all the time, with that kind of money a boat builder should be able to build almost anything, within reason. For example get a kraken or island packet add a mast and helm station inside, your Golden. I don't know I'm just an idiot venting some frustration at the state of boat building.🤣 Even Amel stopped offering 2 masts 🤦♂️
You are forgetting the most dangerous thing most people do is get in a car. Everyone has to decide what risk they are willing to take. If you have to have the ultimate boat, most people would never be able to go.
Yes very true. My problem is not with people using what is available to them, that is exactly what we do. After all we have a swiss cheese fiberglass hull. I wish it was aluminium. My issue is with the marketing of new "bluewater" boats. Cheers, Fair winds 💪
2 mast....hog wash. Masts come down due to poor maintenance. Considering everybody replaces all their rigging at the same time, both mast will have the same wear and tear on them, so if one of your masts come down, the other one will be coming down shortly later. It is true that APs normally can't handle big seas, but that is a blanket statement that doesn't always fit. Example: On my old boat, A Hunter 376 that I sailed half way around the world, had a very heavy helm until I added 2 inches on the leading edge. After that, I could steer with 1 finger in any condition and the AP could handle any condition. How balanced a rudder is, how strong the AP drive is, and the ability of the AP computer to calculate things like heel determines what conditions the AP can handle. On my Hunter the AP could steer better than I could after the rudder modification.
Sorry. Cant agree with these statements. Aquarius lost they're main mast and has rigging replacesld less that a year ago. Not all failures are due to Ware and tare. We hydraulic steering and autopilot pump power is not an issue. No autopilot recovers from beein picked up by the waves and turned 180° now your sail's are backwinded and you are facing the incoming seas. But it's ok to disagree healthy discussion is always welcome 😁 cheers mate
@@reversingentropy I've broached a few times but only 70 degrees. Amel is know for doing 'things different' so it's no surprise they have design issues. The only thing I like about Amels is they put the wheel near the dodger and out of the way of the rest of the cockpit with a nice helmsman chair.
OK, so what exactly was the cause of the Aquarius dismasting? He kept the mast aboard, so presumably there was a cause determined. Bad rigging practices can be a cause, that causes premature failure. Probably unlikely in his case, he seems relatively experienced. IMHO, if you are in a seastate that can broach you 180 degrees, you should have deployed your JSD already. Sometimes there is no remedy for poor seamanship.
@robthompson7174 they go into the reasons for dismasting in one of the videos. They conclude it is a flawed design by Amel since it happened to 5 other super maramu someting to do with the mast beeing week neer the furler and the usage of the pole out. Amel changed the user manual to reflect This. But you should see they're videos on it. Once we were sailing along in 3 meter (10ft) following seas, not comfortable but fine wind was calming down it was just about 25kts, everything seemed fine. Suddenly we get hit by a séries of huge chross Waves I assume from a previous Storm. The sea became completely erratic 3meter (10ft) waves from the back and huge swell from the beam. At this point wind was dying out and had a huge delta in speed like 12kts sustained with 30kts gusts. The autopilot does a better job than me most of the time but in these conditions it had no every few minutes it would throw an error because it couldn't keep up. The difference here is i could see the waves before they hit and adjust course while the autopilot couldn't. My point is just that sometimes you don't get a warning and get caught out very suddenly. Seamanship is very very important but even the most experienced sailor's sometimes meet the end by the sea. Cheers mate fair winds 💪
Not agreeing with some of your points: if in a ketch you lose your mainmast, the boat wil not sail under mizzen as its too unbalanced. I much prefer a cutter. I have sailed ketches extensively. They have advantages and disadvantages but they are very top heavy which is never good. I also disagree about bolt on keels. There are boats with very well engineered bolt on keels and I prefer them to encapsulated. Its easier to panel beat lead than fix FRP. You didnt mention watertight bulkheads which for me are necessary. If the hull design is good then the autopilot will steer in anything. I have saiked at least ten boats with insude steering and none of them were possible to steer from. Also a good (and light) hull design means that big sails are not necessary. My 60ft monohull has the same size rig as a Hanse 430. It has 3 through hulls, all of which are aft of the rear watertight bulkhead along with all the machinery. This is a real boat designed to sail oceans. It has one mast, a bolt on keel and spade rudder and its easily the best ocean sailing boat I have ever sailed: wavetrain.net/2011/12/26/sundeer-60-an-ideal-bluewater-cruising-boat/
We will have to disagree on this, but that's ok 😁 i can sail with mizzen only, ot sucks and its slow but it can be done in an emergency. Also it is enough to keep you heeled to one side when motoring, instead of just bobbing from side to side. No autopilot can recover when a wave picks you up and turn's you 180°, now you are back sailed, and facing the waves. Aldo we disagree it's always nice to hear other perspectives. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, fair winds 💪
@reversingentropy In a properly designed boat there is no wave that will pick up and turn around 180⁰. That's poor boat design right there. I have sailed my boat 20,000 miles in the last two years with about 5,000 of those miles in the southern ocean. The boat is almost impossible to broach. I say almost because it may be possible but I can't imagine how and haven't even been close. The vast majority of very experienced sailors choose cutters. You might want to think about that. I have done just over 206,000 miles of mostly ocean sailing including 11 transatlantics and 5 times across the Pacific. I have sailed in the Arctic and the subantarctic as well as a lot of tropical sailing and all the latitudes in between. Your rant is probably aimed at production boats, about which we can agree that they are poorly designed and built for ocean sailing. The CE certification is nonsense. But just because many production boats have badly designed bolt on keels and spade rudders does not mean that all bolt on keels and spade rudders are bad. Look at boats such as the outbound 46, Morris 486, all the Deerfoot and Sundeer yachts. All these boats are designed and built for real cruising: they are built to ground and will survive moderate grounding with no damage.
@@Chuckjohn12 and a westsail 32 sails so slowly and performs so badly upwind, especially in light winds that it's dangerous. A W32 is not able to sail off a lee shore in light winds with any kind of adverse current. They are a terrible design with the same hydrodynamic design as Westminster Abbey and about the same weight. I have spent far too much of my life delivering appalling long keel beamy double enders with enough displacement for three real boats and the performance of a brick. All of them are unfit for purpose. They are motorsailors at best
Well, I can understand most of the reasons , but really... slaging off another vessel, really you should be better than that. All boats are a compromise... but they are still out there .
I didn't mean it to feel that Way. I ended by saying they are amazing vessels. My problem is with the corporate lie's. I didn't get te point across very well, I will try to do better in the future, cheers Fair winds 💪
@ourpetboat very very true we are in the "same boat"🤣 not having the Best should not stopping from going. Other Wise one will never leave the Port. But it's sure nice to dream 💪 cheer's. Fair winds
Yes capsize is very important for the colvic it's 1.7 but beware the formula isn't perfect. I saw an article once where they break down the formula, and the conclusion is that its good enough for a ball park but other factors apply as well. Cheers, fair winds 💪
These are all valid points but after living on my 45 for many years I see a lot of people who retire and want to sail the seas. They all are very worried, safety is all they seem to care about. There is only relative safety on a boat in an ocean, there is no way out of that fact. The number one way people die sailing has nothing to do the boat, they fall off with no life vest, %82 of them.
Independent masts? No triatic stay between mast to give massive strength to a ketch rig? No understanding of a high aspect sloop rig? I feel like you're generalising beyond your pay grade
It's quite possible 🤣 you are correct I don't understand high aspect riggs for long distance cruising, even though I agree they are a better option for almost everything else. Cheers mate, Fair winds 💪
What you are really talking about is risk management that is decided by 1. Frequency and 2. Severity. How likely is it that an Orca will bite off your rudder? Statistically negligible. What is the worst case severity? Catastrophic. So maybe we go skeg hung or water tight compartment. Now my risk is reduced. This just goes on and on for every identified risk. THE biggest problem for a day sailor or world traveler is that a lot of people don't assess their risks from either ignorance or laziness or over confidence. On top of that they have no mitigation plan. So when a problem arises, they're unprepared and suffer consequences. Their is no such thing as a white water or blue water or coastal or day sail... these are just convenient labels that really are marketing generalizations. If prepared well enough and risk management is thorough, you can make it across the Atlantic in a bathtub safely. You can die on a Kraken if unprepared. So maybe address these issues with that in mind instead of blanket statements about masts, keels, rudders, etc. There is no one size solution to potential issues. There is only risk management based on frequency and severity and how willing you are to accept the risks given your prevention and mitigation planning. Cheers and excited to see your adventures.
Partially agree with you. Funny you should mention orcas I'm from Portugal, for me the risk is every time they're near loool 🤣 My point is: if I can chose I will chose those those things. They are part of my risk assessment. Cheers mate. Fair winds 💪
Completely disagree. Why would you want a white water boat when you could just have a perfect boat? It’s a known fact that any boat that is not perfect will be unsafe in a storm. Downright irresponsible to go to Antarctica in anything other than a perfect boat. That’s just my opinion but I’ve sailed a literally perfect boat over 1 billion miles single handed and also watched a lot of RUclips, so yeah.
Heave to my man, heave to make a fire eat a steak have a shower and enjoy the spectacle of being surrounded by the fury of a force 10 storm. Have a good sleep and when its all over carry on.
I have a Shannon 43 which checks all but two of your boxes - independent masts and protected helm. I plan to cross the Atlantic within the next three seasons, your comments are well taken. We have been caught off-shore in unexpected 50 knot gusts, 4 meter very steep seas, and horizontal rain for two days and had no concerns but a bullet proof covered helm station would have been amazing.
All boats are a compromise, ours is also missing some of these things, yours is already much much better than most.
It's funny I've read and replied to all the comments and a pattern is emerging. People who disagree say things like "look at the imoca chalange" or "these boats are too slow" etc. People who agree say "I have been on a Storm " hehe 😆 cheers mate fair winds 💪
I agree the boat we are currently looking at is 30 tons, carries 950 gallons of diesel, 900 gallons of water, and a 250 gallon holding. It has a watertight engine room. A full encapsulated keel. A protected exterior and interior helm. Made of solid FG.
I unlike most have seen and experienced and survived a storm with 30-45 foot breaking waves totally engulfing the boat and knocking us down 3 times. That was in a moody carbineer. And despite that boats weathering hell it met its demise at the dock when a storm came thru and broke the dock and it smashed against the rocks.
I would add a few things.
1. Hand holds everywhere and not too much open space where you can fly across the cabin.
2. How much water can come in and it will still float. The boat we are looking at has closed cell foam in voids and the first one was demonstrated by the builder to be completely filled with water and still floating despite 30 tons of displacement. And the protected watertight engine room allowed it to both still sail and motor.
3. While I agree with the 2 masts in case of dismasting at a minimum you should have a cutter rig so you can fly across storm jib stay sail. Also you should have enough engine power and again enough fuel to make it to your destination on fuel alone. Boat we are trying to buy has a range of 3600 NM on a full fuel tank.
4. Bow reinforced for ice or other hard things.
5. Extremely strong well protected rudder. In recent years other than hitting something rudders being ripped out is the 1 cause of sinking.
6. Freeboard. Yes you trade safety for Windage. But when the seas get high enough and they will you don’t want water to come inside from the top sides.
7. Length to beam ratio. Modern boats are awesome and I love being on them in calm weather or nice anchorages. But their beam while providing awesome static stability becomes a downfall in heavy seas. Narrower ratios allow the boat to cut thru the waves better.
8. Fully autonomous you either need a big budget to run generator or you’re going to need solar and a good sized battery bank that can run everything on board without needing to plug in to a dock.
For our mission we choose boats like this because we want to keep people safe even if out of nowhere a perfect day on the bay turns into hell on the water.
Wow, amazing comment. Thank you. Some of these points were in the list but I figured i had ranted for long enough loooll but most of your points i didn't even think about them.
Very good information think i need to redo the video loool cheers mate. I hope you get that vessel l, a assume it's a one off, right?
@ it’s not a one off. It was made in small numbers. I believe less than 10 of the model were made by the boat builder and the first one they built was brought to the Annapolis boat show from its factory in Jacksonville with a sailing journalist on board.
It has its drawbacks. It’s huge 57 LOA 50 LWL. So we won’t be visiting marinas often unless we are doing therapy sessions for ease of boarding. But surviving a near hurricane level storm that came from nowhere my carbineer felt too small.
Most production boats rely on the CE rating. But most people only see the A they don’t look to see how much weight that rating is at. And when you load the boat up you often find yourself dropping to the B category.
@Seakingasylum yep. And cruisers sure fill up they're boats lol 😆
Thank you for giving us a lot of well-founded passionate opinions, I'm surprised that all the comments are made by balanced people, not a single narcissistic response, this is an almost impossible achievement, so thanks to all the respondents too.
Yes, well, we all love boats so we are instantly more sophisticated than others 🤣 cheers 💪
Brilliant video. Loved it. I’m buying my 50ft dream boat next year to sail the world, have taken your comments on board. Thanks you
Very cool. Maybe we'll meet out there. Cheers mate, fair winds 💪
That was the most coherent and sensible boat advice I've heard so far. I did see some of the info by my self because some features simply FEEL safer- cockpit covered, internal helm. Big keel protecting rudder , two masts and so on. Now, give us a smile captain Haddock ...... 😉
These modern , fast, massive sloops are beautiful ,though. Canova 142 from Baltic yacht 😍 . I guess they are more show offs than safe white water SYs
Each sailboat for its mission, all sailboats are beautiful even the ugly ones ehehhe. My problem is with bad marketing i guess.
Thanks mate. Cheers 💪
Honest and direct... I like it 👌
Thank you so much. Fair winds 💪
Thomas from the youtube channel "Sailing with Thomas" has made some interesting takes in his latest 5 videos on very similar concerns that this video raised. I'd recomend you take a look. (I'd love to leave a link but YT wouldn't let that happen...)
Topics like how he battled through a 70+ knot storm in a Bavaria 55
I've seen all of his videos. We disagree on some things And agree on others. He likes dual unprotected rudders I don't. I like dual masts, he doesn't. But desagreeing is ok we would still have some beers together. Cheers mate fair winds 💪
I do agree with you about the keel and you left off the protected rudder as well. I will say I will never go offshore on a keel bolted to the hull boat, but a keel bolted to a keel stub, that is much much stronger.
If you go offshore on a boat with an unprotected rudder, you better know at least in theory how to steer without it.
An open cockpit does have it's advantages in white water...it will drain 20 times faster than a protected cockpit. You just need to make sure you don't have anything in the cockpit that you can't afford to have washed out to sea that isn't bolted down.
Fact is, now days, with weather forecasts and weather windows and patterns, you can sail the coconut rum line and never see anything more than 30 knots and 14 foot seas if you are a good captain. The old saying: a good captain knows when to stay in port and when to leave port.
But if you want to get out of the tropics, yeah, a boat with a encapsulated keel would be best. If the keel is encapsulated, you can be assured the rest of the boat is good enough.
Wow. Love the point about the draining.on the cockpit. I haven't thought about that. I guess that's why center cockpits are always small. So not much water can fit in there.
Thank you for your comment totally agree 👍 fair winds mate.
Boats and guns have this in common: the one you own is the best one you have.
Very true. Cheers mate, Fair winds 💪
After 20 years offshore North Sea. I understand that you are not an naval arcitecht . My priorties is a boat that is self rightening from 180 degrees and can function if complete black out. That can survive a hit from log, container and so on. A boat that takes care of me. You don't know much about wind wane steering or auto pilotes either. Good luck.
By the way, my boat has a capsize factor og 1,56. By designation 'a very heavy blue water cruiser', and is built for icy waters up north. 42 feet, 17 tons, 6 kW gen.set and 140 hp motor. Built in steel. We have had breaking seas rolling over the boat, and it heeled 45 degrees.
Yep you are 100% correct. This video should be much longer and I had form stability vs displacement in the features list, but i figured i had pissed people enough LoL merry Christmas
@reversingentropy You are an interesting caracter :-) If you are in the market for tough sailing boat for arctic areaes, why on earth focus on badly insulsted glass fiber? When there are tons of aluminium and ,above all, steel yachs available? But you really pissed me off, congratulations !
@svhulda6157 That's very simple, very low budget. I don't have the dream boat. Ohh I wish I had something like the pelagic. But for now I have to make due with what is available and chose the boat that has the most things out of the desired caracteristics for I price we could afford.
My intention was not to annoy you, I'm sorry 😔 cheers mate, Fair winds.
@reversingentropy Do as I did. Buy some tones of steel plates and make your own sailer. I overhauled a GM diesel motor 140 hp. Second hand genoa winches from NZ Endeavour (something like that) an around the world sailer. Eberspächer 4 kW heater. Minimum 1.5 inches foam insulation to .5 m below water line, deck saloon roof 4 inches. No condensation. Bow is 12 mm St56 steel and so on. 650 liter diesel in main- and day tanks, diesel polishing system. Cutter rig, in 20 m/s wind we have made a speed through 4 metres waves of 6 knots just by the jib. Wind 45 deg on the bow, approx. No genoa or main sail. No need for two masts. We can tack with just the jib. Never a drop of water inside. We can sit protected in the deck saloon an sail the boat via SimradRobertson auto pilot. 13 M long, 4 M wide, 2,25 M deep fully loaded. I am not easily offended. Fair winds :-)
@svhulda6157 wowww that sounds awesome. I have though many times on building my own "pelagic" but I don't want to use up 5 or 10 years of my 40ties on the hard. I think for now at least just going with what we have, and being aware of the limitations is the best option. Maybe we'll meet out there some day. Cheers, fair winds 💪
The "White Water" boat you are describing sounds slow 🐌 and would be incapable of getting out of the way of a storm. The one safety feature you seem unaware of is speed.
I hear you. But... The boat im describing doesn't exist the closest thing i know is Chip Novak Pelagic, and it is not slow at all.
Getting out of the way of a storm is a flawed idea, there is no such thing, when a 200mile storm front is coming towards you at 50kts an hour. You can have a planing hull, if you have no where to hide you are going thu the storm. Then you will wish you had a battle Axe that can keep you safe.
Every sailor I know disagrees with this idea that you can dodge storms with a fast boat. Every boat sales person loves it. You can plan shorter windows. But you cant be sure, and therefore neglect safety. Cheers mate fair winds
I agree and given a perfect world I would try and include all these features in an expedition yacht. That is designed to spend several weeks at sea far from any rescue. But since most people’s actual sailing will be sailing warm Caribbean waters between the islands and mainland of Florida or maybe the more adventurous might take longer offshore routes to sail to Europe or north to road island (Newport)
They might sail 636-mile ocean sailing from Rhode Island, USA to Bermuda. Which is not nothing but if you do it as part of the Newport to Bermuda race another competitor most likely will be close enough to response to a distress call.
My point is the reason so many of these boats are rated as blue water or class A ocean class boats is THAT is the type of sailor they are building these boats for. BUT… I have looked and so many do not even meet one of the requirements and that is a capsize ratio below 2.0 so many of these new cruising boats don’t even qualify to register to enter the Newport ti Bermuda race.
But I do see it from the production boat builders perspective of giving the buyer what they want and nothing more. The wealthy buyers looking to buy a brand new boat (builders don’t give a crap about what is in the used boat market) their goal is to make luxurious boats they want boats one or two people can sail but will accommodate 2-3 couples on holiday. (Charter market much bigger also so more cabins and more comfortable stay in the Caribbean island hopping with easy access to the water is far more important then the ability to cross oceans then probably over 60 percent of production boats today are built in Europe. So sailing the med around the Greek islands in comfort is far more likely to be where most of these boats will be. Then a few will cross the down wind crossing to the Caribbean then stay there. And the owner probably will hire a delivery crew to get it there and they will fly in. Or they may sail the down wind trade winds crossing then leave the boat fly home because their vacation is over and a delivery captain and crew will sail it back to Europe. On the longer return trip. My point is the market for boats with all the features you mention is SMALL nit many people will actually make multiple long ocean passages (themselves anyway) their boat may but a delivery captain will be the one making them. And usually these captains and crew they hire are experienced salts that will make sure that boat is going to make it so they can get paid. But it’s a one way trip for them they will make the passage then they walk away leaving the boat for the owner. So again not doing long passages then another and another and another all on the same boat and possibly staying onboard the whole time in remote locations. So there is a difference in requirements. If you sail one long passage from one port to another port vs sailing from a port to a remote location stay there (with no provisioning possible there) you must not only carry everything to get there but also get to your next destination. The weather window is irrelevant also because you may be in a remote location with nowhere to run. Especially in the higher latitudes storms and big seas are frequent and any extended stay in those areas means you WILL be out in at least one storm. So the my boat is fast so I can finish passages faster and avoid bad weather does not make any sense at all as your sailing where NO boat not even huge ships that can go faster then even the fastest cruising boats still get caught at sea in bad weather conditions.
Amazing comment, thank you for taking the time to write it. Absolutely spot on. The marketing suits the market.... And then some people believe the marketing 🤣 I believe it's better to go small go now, than not going at all, but people shoul be ware of what they got and plan accordingly. Cheers mate. Fair winds 💪
This!
It’s always good to have a discussion. Most machines are operated by people whose ability doesn’t match its capabilities, this is true most of the time. Whether it’s a sports car, a motorcycle , or Boat. Practice and education is 95% of everything, and most accidents are not accidents they are preventable.
Totally agree. Following that logic, give the shitty sailer the best boat possible 🤣 Cheers mate fair winds 💪
I like a solid mast slightly shorter than normal, stepped around midships and cutter rigged. Aluminium is the business for an expedition and many fine vessels are custom made
Put one more mast on it and I'll buy it 🤣 thanks for the comment, fair winds 💪
@@ninaforrester8552 slightly shorter than normal so you can't sail in light winds if the engine fails?
Love the video, and you are absolutely right! But, everyone buys on a budget, e.g. for my last one, a AMEL Kirk, I had to carry extra water, and it had a bolted keel (with the bolts ready for inspection in the freshwater tank), but I was very aware of it.....and I´d never say it´s as solid as a nice builtin long keel. And I´d never take her anywhere near ice! Or even cold water..... ;-) Merry XMas!
That seems to me to be the perfect attitude. Having the best sailboat we can and knowing what it is and what it isn't. Thanks mate, fair winds 💪
My mistake was pissing people off before the birth of RUclips. I pissed off enough owners of French boats back in the 1980s to be a YT super star. After 12 ocean crossings including the Southern Ocean, my best advice is never sail in white water or as my brother taught me, “Wise men don’t sail upwind”.
Sometimes we don't get to choose 😆 hey that is a mistake you can fix. Just klick upload,I know I would love to hear your story 🫡 cheers mate, fair winds 💪
And incidentally I have the same issues with a Covic Victor as I do with a Westsail 32. The boat just does not sail well enough in light air. Not all disasters happen when its windy. I have lost count of the times the engine has been out of action in my last 40 years of sailing due to water or bug in the fuel, or shit in the starter motor, or fishing line around the prop, or whatever. The boat must be able to sail in very light wind. When you look at experienced sailors who do big miles, by the time they get to their second or third boat they are looking for something that sails well in light breeze. The rig on the colvic is just too small, the beam is too wide and the boat is too heavy to sail well in light or indeed any wind. Sailing performance is as much a contributor to safety as a number of other factors. While the boat must be robust enough to remain intact, extra weight only increases load on the rig, steering and crew and so must be avoided as much as possible. A heavy boat for its length requires more power to push through the water so loads on halyards, clutches. winches and sheets are increased, fuel consumption is increased, engines and propellers have to be bigger, fuel tanks must be larger....its easy to descend into a doom loop of spiralling weight increases and slower sailing.
You should really examine the work of Joe Adams, Graham Radford, Chuck Paine, Carl Schumacher. They have for 30 years been designing long light boats of moderate beam which are fast, easy to sail and steer and very safe. You should also look at the work of Steve Dashew. My point is that its not a chouce between heavy displacement yachts lije armoured vehicles and modern underbuilt production yachts with keels bolted through the hull and glued on grids. There is another way with performance oriented hulls and rigs which give safety through sailing ability while being very robust and definitely fit for purpose.
My own Sundeer 60 was built in an era when ABS standards were in effect. The construction of the whole boat is to ABS standard, except for the stressed parts around the chain plates, main bulkhead, rudder, mast step, keel step and entire forward ⅓ of the boat. Most of that is to double or triple ABS scantlings. Despite this the boat has a D/L ratio of 80 and will routinely do 200 miles/day. Our best days are over 230 miles. I often sail the boat by myself without difficulty as does my wife who nobody would describe as an athlete.
All you said seems very reasonable to me. I appreciate diferent opinions on the matter. The only thing I have to disagree a little bit is with the low performance on the colvic. I don't know the 32 but the 40 sails rather well, it's not going to win any races but easy 7kts with 15 on the beam. 5 with 10. I can't ask for much more from this hull length, It's not bad to wind as well. Down wind we do need the Spinnakers though.
Before this we had a long keel evasion 32 that thing would not move unless it was in a Gale lol.
Anyway my issue is more with the lies of the modern boat manufacturers, I should have communicated that better in the video. I'll try to do better in the future. Cheers mate, fair winds 💪
This guy has obviously been either very rich, or he really hasn't been out there where everyone thinks they want to go.
Not Rich, i wish I was 🤣 just trying to continue the journey using the few ressorces we have as wisely as possible. Our Boat doesn't have all these things but I wish it did. Cheers mate, Fair winds 💪
You are right.Great video.May i ask you if your wife is from Greece?
We use this name in Greece.
Hi. No, we are Portuguese 😜 the language and culture is actually very similar. Cheers mate 💪
I'm glad you have your priorities, there not for everyone. First there's always a safer boat and all things fail. Second if safety is your concern you should not go out in white water regardless of your boat. Third it's about risk verses reward how much can you spend verses the risks your willing to take. I'm sure my aluminum, swing keel, deck stepped mast is cringe worthy but I trust her ie.. risk vs award. I do hope you get that boat that takes you through the Drake and north west passage. Cheers
Wise words. It is true that no adventure is risk free, the issue is when Truth gets replaced by marketing speak and new sailors get cough out in a bad situation. FYI aluminum swing keel is awesome 😎 the ability to beach yourself is priceless. Cheers mate, fair winds 💪
You forget to say: "Hull must be metal!"
Yes I forget to say that. But it's implied 🤣🤣🤣
Jugs is a safety feature as well as a storage feature. No blue water, or white water as you would say, has tanks for gas, but yet most cruisers use gas for the outboard. Your tanks will do you no good if you need to take water with you, like say a beach outting or a sinking boat. You also need jugs for the places you have to hand carry diesel. I'm starting to wonder if they guy has been anywhere.
I have many jugs on my Whitby 55 which is a much more white water boat than yours and I have 300 gallon water and fuel tanks so capacity is not the reason I have them.
I see what you are saying. Notice i said "on the Deck" of course we Carry Jerry cans with gas for the dinghy, we have 100 liters of water in jerry cans for an emergency. But they are all stored in safe places, not latched to the deck. Im sure you know what i mean. Boats with 100l Diesel tank and 20 jericans hanging from the lifelines 🤣.
Cheers mate. Fair winds 💪
I get some of your points but i think the owners bias to for example the keel type goes both ways, more then once i've been judged by owners of "bluewater yachts" being proud of their integral keel while their keel was compromised. in one case they had delamination and water ingress so the ballast was rotting and the other had broken stringers so the integral keel swung underneath the boat flexing the hull but hey it's Bluewater yacht it's indestructible! Meanwhile my bolton lead finkeel is fixed with 20 stainless 24mm bolts to a 20mm thick aluminium plate welded in the aluminium hull with a grid of stringers and lengthwise frame rails to stiffen the hull it's the stiffest most rugged feeling boat I've ever sailed. Guess wich one in trust, i think its more important to get a good example of the boat that fits your requirements, good bolton keels dont fall off, good spade rudders dont fall off.. A bad spade rudder can fall off or damage the hull, but a bad skeg hung rudder will not outperform it when hitting a UFO.
Get a well designed and well maintained vessel, maintain it, minimise failure points and know the limits of yourself and your vessel.
I think is more important to know what youve got and take its pros and cons in consideration and sail it like it was intended.
I trust my bolton fin keel, spade rudder, cutter rigged, aluminium sailboat with my life in the worst weather but i sure hope i never have to endure it.
Very well said. I agree with you and i should have made it more clearly on the video that not all Bolt on keels are the same and not all integral keels are Good. The comparison should always be between the best bolt on keel and the best integral keel and the best swing keel etc.
I would love to have an aluminum boat, congratulations 🙏 thats another difficult discussion, I have a thick fiberglass hull but for strength and safety i would prefer aluminum. And I'm very conscious I don't have the best option... And then you see Dick Beaumont "Kraken builder" state that aluminum is no good to justify the kraken hull material 🤦♂️ I guess my point is people should be more open to say, my boat is not the best at everything. Cheers mate, marry Christmas 🎄
@@reversingentropy thanks, yes aluminium is great but as all materials do it has its drawbacks. I think Dick Beaumont makes some valid points but in my opinion overstates some cons of aluminium, understates some pros and makes some bold statements I question but that's okay, he's a good sailor and a good salesman. That said I think the Kraken yachts are quite cool and I do not dislike fiberglass boats, I actually came to appreciate them more, some years ago I only wanted aluminium or steel but I couldn't stand the constant rust battle and the lack of performance on steel yachts so aluminium it had to be. But now I see the time and place where fiberglass boats make sense and wouldn't shy away from one.
I think you're right it's good to be realistic about the capability of your vessel and crew, like you said I really like my boat and in my opinion all boats are compromises and my boat is the best compromise for my use but not the perfect vessel for everyone or every situation.
I wanted a combination of speed and safety which is a hard combination and tends to get in the way of comfort.
Anyway thanks for the videos, happy holidays!
@sebastiaanhoenderdos7458 Interesting, next boat would you buy aluminium or fiberglass ? We should record a podcast loool 🤣
@@reversingentropy hahaha, would be funny to be in a podcast I love to talk about this subject but as i have no name of any significance to anyone, my opinion is just another opinion.
Tough call I think it will all depend on what i want to do at that point in life, for right now the aluminium boat is perfect we live on the boat in North Sea area and mainly want to travel North, I think we'll keep this boat for quite some time we like it a lot. it's a long term boat to us, big enough (45ft), strong enough, certainly fast enough and handles great. But let's say we change plans in 10 years and have a bigger budget I'm open to reconsider hull material. If money is no object I could see myself either in a clapped out aluminium expedition vessel or in a luxury fast fiberglass cruiser all depends on where I want to go and under what circumstances but one thing is for sure I like you get somewhere at a decent pace and with good handling so probably no battleship nor a dock queen.
@sebastiaanhoenderdos7458 I can tell you I'm a bit sick of all the Podcasts with all the same established people, it's become borring 😆 maybe what we need is a bunch of "nobody's" I have no experience in Podcasts I only did one with my friend Giorgio who's boat had burned down it was fun 👌If you ever change your mind and want to try a podcast with another nobody, let me know lol
Yes life finds a way to change priorities.
So we are both waiting for chip's pelagic 77 to become available 😆😆😆
am loving these videos you go my lifetime sub
Wooowww not so fast. Im sure ill disappoint you some day 🤣 cheers mate fair winds 💪
Great video, I totally agree with all your all points for a so called white water boat, but how many boats tick those boxes and secondly how many people can afford that type of vessel
There’s been so many boats that don’t even tick a third of what is said here for white water boats but they all circumnavigate the world over and over again I agree with your opinion
I would want that boat your describing & realistically the boat is as safe as the captain & crew probably the most important factor in safety
for me
Great video wishing you fair winds ⛵️
Thank you
Merry Xmas
Thank you...
I believe the problem is not the people it's te manufactureres.
People buy a million dollar + boats all the time, with that kind of money a boat builder should be able to build almost anything, within reason. For example get a kraken or island packet add a mast and helm station inside, your Golden. I don't know I'm just an idiot venting some frustration at the state of boat building.🤣 Even Amel stopped offering 2 masts 🤦♂️
You are forgetting the most dangerous thing most people do is get in a car. Everyone has to decide what risk they are willing to take. If you have to have the ultimate boat, most people would never be able to go.
Yes very true. My problem is not with people using what is available to them, that is exactly what we do. After all we have a swiss cheese fiberglass hull. I wish it was aluminium.
My issue is with the marketing of new "bluewater" boats. Cheers, Fair winds 💪
2 mast....hog wash. Masts come down due to poor maintenance. Considering everybody replaces all their rigging at the same time, both mast will have the same wear and tear on them, so if one of your masts come down, the other one will be coming down shortly later.
It is true that APs normally can't handle big seas, but that is a blanket statement that doesn't always fit. Example: On my old boat, A Hunter 376 that I sailed half way around the world, had a very heavy helm until I added 2 inches on the leading edge. After that, I could steer with 1 finger in any condition and the AP could handle any condition. How balanced a rudder is, how strong the AP drive is, and the ability of the AP computer to calculate things like heel determines what conditions the AP can handle. On my Hunter the AP could steer better than I could after the rudder modification.
Sorry. Cant agree with these statements. Aquarius lost they're main mast and has rigging replacesld less that a year ago. Not all failures are due to Ware and tare.
We hydraulic steering and autopilot pump power is not an issue. No autopilot recovers from beein picked up by the waves and turned 180° now your sail's are backwinded and you are facing the incoming seas.
But it's ok to disagree healthy discussion is always welcome 😁 cheers mate
@@reversingentropy I've broached a few times but only 70 degrees.
Amel is know for doing 'things different' so it's no surprise they have design issues. The only thing I like about Amels is they put the wheel near the dodger and out of the way of the rest of the cockpit with a nice helmsman chair.
OK, so what exactly was the cause of the Aquarius dismasting? He kept the mast aboard, so presumably there was a cause determined. Bad rigging practices can be a cause, that causes premature failure. Probably unlikely in his case, he seems relatively experienced.
IMHO, if you are in a seastate that can broach you 180 degrees, you should have deployed your JSD already. Sometimes there is no remedy for poor seamanship.
@robthompson7174 they go into the reasons for dismasting in one of the videos. They conclude it is a flawed design by Amel since it happened to 5 other super maramu someting to do with the mast beeing week neer the furler and the usage of the pole out. Amel changed the user manual to reflect This. But you should see they're videos on it.
Once we were sailing along in 3 meter (10ft) following seas, not comfortable but fine wind was calming down it was just about 25kts, everything seemed fine. Suddenly we get hit by a séries of huge chross Waves I assume from a previous Storm. The sea became completely erratic 3meter (10ft) waves from the back and huge swell from the beam. At this point wind was dying out and had a huge delta in speed like 12kts sustained with 30kts gusts.
The autopilot does a better job than me most of the time but in these conditions it had no every few minutes it would throw an error because it couldn't keep up.
The difference here is i could see the waves before they hit and adjust course while the autopilot couldn't.
My point is just that sometimes you don't get a warning and get caught out very suddenly.
Seamanship is very very important but even the most experienced sailor's sometimes meet the end by the sea. Cheers mate fair winds 💪
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
I don't understand. What is a Wendy's ?
Just looked it up... Very cool 🤣 thats the reason why we can't have anything nice, because nobody cares anymore.
Cheers, fair winds 💪
Not agreeing with some of your points: if in a ketch you lose your mainmast, the boat wil not sail under mizzen as its too unbalanced. I much prefer a cutter. I have sailed ketches extensively. They have advantages and disadvantages but they are very top heavy which is never good. I also disagree about bolt on keels. There are boats with very well engineered bolt on keels and I prefer them to encapsulated. Its easier to panel beat lead than fix FRP. You didnt mention watertight bulkheads which for me are necessary.
If the hull design is good then the autopilot will steer in anything. I have saiked at least ten boats with insude steering and none of them were possible to steer from. Also a good (and light) hull design means that big sails are not necessary. My 60ft monohull has the same size rig as a Hanse 430. It has 3 through hulls, all of which are aft of the rear watertight bulkhead along with all the machinery.
This is a real boat designed to sail oceans. It has one mast, a bolt on keel and spade rudder and its easily the best ocean sailing boat I have ever sailed:
wavetrain.net/2011/12/26/sundeer-60-an-ideal-bluewater-cruising-boat/
We will have to disagree on this, but that's ok 😁 i can sail with mizzen only, ot sucks and its slow but it can be done in an emergency. Also it is enough to keep you heeled to one side when motoring, instead of just bobbing from side to side.
No autopilot can recover when a wave picks you up and turn's you 180°, now you are back sailed, and facing the waves.
Aldo we disagree it's always nice to hear other perspectives. Thanks for the comment. Cheers, fair winds 💪
@reversingentropy In a properly designed boat there is no wave that will pick up and turn around 180⁰. That's poor boat design right there. I have sailed my boat 20,000 miles in the last two years with about 5,000 of those miles in the southern ocean. The boat is almost impossible to broach. I say almost because it may be possible but I can't imagine how and haven't even been close. The vast majority of very experienced sailors choose cutters. You might want to think about that. I have done just over 206,000 miles of mostly ocean sailing including 11 transatlantics and 5 times across the Pacific. I have sailed in the Arctic and the subantarctic as well as a lot of tropical sailing and all the latitudes in between. Your rant is probably aimed at production boats, about which we can agree that they are poorly designed and built for ocean sailing. The CE certification is nonsense. But just because many production boats have badly designed bolt on keels and spade rudders does not mean that all bolt on keels and spade rudders are bad. Look at boats such as the outbound 46, Morris 486, all the Deerfoot and Sundeer yachts. All these boats are designed and built for real cruising: they are built to ground and will survive moderate grounding with no damage.
@deerfootnz you are correct, I clearly spoke too broadly. I obviously meant "bad" bolt on keels... I will try to do better in the future. Cheers 👌
These are incredibly expensive things you’re explaining For what a boat to be able to take a north gale in the Gulf Stream.
Yes, agreed. This boat might not even exist, not with every single box ticket a sailboat os always a compromise, Still it sure would be nice 😁
Liked and subbed
WADR, My Macgregor 26X is not a bluewater boat. Costal and lake sailing only. I'm good with that. :)
That's the whole point 😁 BTW love the macgregor's 👌 Unlike other brands they never said it was an ocean going vessel. Cheers mate, fair winds 💪
These are massive generalizations, west sail 32 only has a 40 gallon tank and 50 gallons of water
I believe if they built it with only 50 gallons of water, it wasn't intended for long periods off shore. Cheers mate. Fair winds 💪
@@Chuckjohn12 and a westsail 32 sails so slowly and performs so badly upwind, especially in light winds that it's dangerous. A W32 is not able to sail off a lee shore in light winds with any kind of adverse current. They are a terrible design with the same hydrodynamic design as Westminster Abbey and about the same weight. I have spent far too much of my life delivering appalling long keel beamy double enders with enough displacement for three real boats and the performance of a brick. All of them are unfit for purpose. They are motorsailors at best
@@deerfootnz hey. they don't call them Wet Snails for no reason 🤣
Well, I can understand most of the reasons , but really... slaging off another vessel, really you should be better than that. All boats are a compromise... but they are still out there .
I didn't mean it to feel that Way. I ended by saying they are amazing vessels. My problem is with the corporate lie's.
I didn't get te point across very well, I will try to do better in the future, cheers Fair winds 💪
Mine is not the best but I have it and it's the best for me... until the next. ...
@ourpetboat very very true we are in the "same boat"🤣 not having the Best should not stopping from going. Other Wise one will never leave the Port. But it's sure nice to dream 💪 cheer's. Fair winds
what is the Capsize Screening Formula for your boat if its above 2 its not a good white water boat lmao
probably the most important calculation
Yes capsize is very important for the colvic it's 1.7 but beware the formula isn't perfect. I saw an article once where they break down the formula, and the conclusion is that its good enough for a ball park but other factors apply as well. Cheers, fair winds 💪
Hey thanks for telling the truth however it predicts more failures of current boats on U tube and new ones gone electric and carbon laminate
Yes if they are not careful, problems might arise. Cheers mate, fair winds 💪
These are all valid points but after living on my 45 for many years I see a lot of people who retire and want to sail the seas. They all are very worried, safety is all they seem to care about. There is only relative safety on a boat in an ocean, there is no way out of that fact. The number one way people die sailing has nothing to do the boat, they fall off with no life vest, %82 of them.
Amazing point. 🫡 I must admit i get careless about using a vest sometimes 🤣 cheers mate, fair winds 💪
In fact many of them die in harbour….. supposedly celebrating their save arrival… with beer and boose without end….
Independent masts? No triatic stay between mast to give massive strength to a ketch rig? No understanding of a high aspect sloop rig? I feel like you're generalising beyond your pay grade
It's quite possible 🤣 you are correct I don't understand high aspect riggs for long distance cruising, even though I agree they are a better option for almost everything else. Cheers mate, Fair winds 💪
What you are really talking about is risk management that is decided by 1. Frequency and 2. Severity. How likely is it that an Orca will bite off your rudder? Statistically negligible. What is the worst case severity? Catastrophic. So maybe we go skeg hung or water tight compartment. Now my risk is reduced. This just goes on and on for every identified risk.
THE biggest problem for a day sailor or world traveler is that a lot of people don't assess their risks from either ignorance or laziness or over confidence. On top of that they have no mitigation plan. So when a problem arises, they're unprepared and suffer consequences.
Their is no such thing as a white water or blue water or coastal or day sail... these are just convenient labels that really are marketing generalizations. If prepared well enough and risk management is thorough, you can make it across the Atlantic in a bathtub safely. You can die on a Kraken if unprepared.
So maybe address these issues with that in mind instead of blanket statements about masts, keels, rudders, etc. There is no one size solution to potential issues. There is only risk management based on frequency and severity and how willing you are to accept the risks given your prevention and mitigation planning. Cheers and excited to see your adventures.
Partially agree with you. Funny you should mention orcas I'm from Portugal, for me the risk is every time they're near loool 🤣
My point is: if I can chose I will chose those those things. They are part of my risk assessment.
Cheers mate. Fair winds 💪
Completely disagree. Why would you want a white water boat when you could just have a perfect boat? It’s a known fact that any boat that is not perfect will be unsafe in a storm. Downright irresponsible to go to Antarctica in anything other than a perfect boat.
That’s just my opinion but I’ve sailed a literally perfect boat over 1 billion miles single handed and also watched a lot of RUclips, so yeah.
😂
Good or bad ? 🤣
Bingo! EVERYTHING you said is CORRECT.
👌
Thank you 🙏 fair winds mate 💪
Heave to my man, heave to make a fire eat a steak have a shower and enjoy the spectacle of being surrounded by the fury of a force 10 storm. Have a good sleep and when its all over carry on.
I like you already 😁 one day I wish To be as calm and Wise . Cheers mate, fair winds 💪