I ride an alluminium road bike by Scott. It IS harsh, it IS heavy, and it was very cheap. But I love it. It fits me perfect and when I'm riding alone, it still generates the illusion I am younger, fitter and faster than I actually am. Carbon is awsome, but alloy can still put a smile on your face.
I got a 2023 Allez Sprint with 105 mech. I swapped the wheels for Roval Rapide CLII, changed the bar to Roval Rapide and the stem to Tarmac SL7. Result is a bike that competes with super bikes but at half the price.
I had a 2016 Emonda ALR and replaced the wheels with some carbon wheels and it was a good bike. Since there aren’t any good rim brake bikes I went and found an older Madone frame used and built off it rather than delve into heavy modern bikes that are insane in price. Built my whole bike to practically new for 15% of a new bike and LIGHTER than newer bikes
@@drucejnr Just admit it, SL7 is a better all arounder bike, don't tell anyone you chose SL6 over SL7 and 105 over Ultegra for any reason except financial. There are people prefer Shimano over Sram, but your case is not the same sir, SL7 expert is every bit better than SL6 sport giving the doubled price tag.
I have bikes with ultegra and 105 components they are both good and in my opinion you chose very well. Why pay more unless your feeling a valuable improvement is my opinion.
I think this version of the Allez compared much better to the aluminium version of the Domane. Which also has rack and fender mounts and 35mm clearance. I think the emonda ALR makes for a great crit racing machine. Knowing Trek you can probably sqeeze in 30's anyway. Especially since tire width labels have been getting a little bit narrower recently. The emonda ALR is more equal to the specialized Allez sprint or cannondale Caad13.
I'm lucky enough to have road and mountain bikes of all materials and the high end carbon ones are brilliant. But weirdly, I just see them as sort of disposable, I love owning my metal bikes
@@kbd13-n9c What, like a split headtube or cracked drop out ? But Its just how I feel about owning my carbon bikes, great ride but not wife material......
Although Specialized/SRAM head for ages, I 'd go for the Emonda ALR! This bike is a beauty! What a colour scheme! And soooo nice assembled without rough welding....On the other hand I was shocked to see Allez sharing geometry with Roubaix, as always was the aluminium version of Tarmac! Great coverage of the 'alu' factor, David! Always informative and good stuff! 👍 👍😮
I ride a LOW aluminum road bike. Rim brakes and mechanical. I love it! LOW is more pricey than a Trek or Specialized, due to it being custom and hand made, but it rides so well! Super responsive and surprisingly forgiving on the road. Thanks again David for giving aluminum frames some much needed love.
I bought a CAAD13 with 105 last year and loving it as my first road bike. Yes I am considering upgrading to a carbon bike like the supersix but I don't think results will differ much. Love your reviews, keep up the good work! Regards from Holland
Two months ago I bought a Ti hardtail and was floored at its smoothness. Since I ride primarily gravel (with some road) I think my next gravel bike will also be Ti. I'm also not a racer so it's an easy decision for me. I think it's high time people consider other bike materials beyond just carbon.
@@ariffau I personally have never ridden a carbon MTB. Years ago I had an alloy one, and now the Ti one. However, those are also two characteristics that aren't relevant to me for my type of riding. Only 30% of my riding is on the MTB and then almost all on single track. That's something you'd have to decide for yourself. I wasn't really interested in a carbon MTB - my other choice was a Santa Cruz Chameleon which is alloy.
@@ariffau find a builder who can build you one with short and thick chainstays. My Ti bike is as snappy as a Tarmac and more comfortable than a Roubaix. (I’ve owned multiple versions of both those bikes)
I completely agree. I just purchased a BMC Teammachine ALR Two for $2299. 105 disc brake groupset. It's a fantastic bike. It did need some different wheels. The stock wheels were terribly heavy. Found some nice carbon wheels for $750.
ok ok, I like where they are going with those bikes, but still a little too high for an average person getting pinned by this economy. BUT I will give credit where credit is due, and I approve of those two models for sure.
I’ve worked hard for my whole life and have done relatively well financially so, please don’t take this comment as bragging. I have three road bikes - Cannondale CADD 10, a Trek Domane (Carbon) and a Giant Defy Advance Pro 1 (Carbon). I love gravel riding and racing but, when I bought my gravel race bike I purchased an aluminum Specialized Diverge e5 Comp. To me it rode better than the carbon fiber version of the bike and I am confident it is durable and will last me a good long time. I did upgrade the saddle, the seat post, some of the drivetrain components and have ENVE carbon wheels mounted on the bike. I saved some money and love the way the bike feels. As you stated, David, a good aluminum frame can be better than a less expensive carbon offering. Fantastic content! Keep it up!
I like you personal advice and I have 7 bikes of all materials and like the idea of getting quality over branding and hype. I still like good bikes but it is finding the sweet spot where you just enjoy your cycling.
I love my aluminum gravel bike. It fits, it performes and its just fun to ride. No propriatery stems, seat posts, complex internal cable routings. Easy to maintain and accessible. I couldnt care less about the little weight difference to a carbon frame. Carbon is light to ride but heavy on the mind.
I think the Allez might be a good ”introduction bike” for someone new to road cycling. And later after getting addicted and buying that S5 with Dura-Ace or something similar one can still use the Allez for commuting because of the fender and rack mounts (in Finnish ”työmatkatempo” that roughly means cycling to work as fast as possible and overtaking everyone along the way, not allowing anyone to overtake you).
Or ride the allez all the way, all that aero gains is marginal considering you can get a deep carbon wheelset, better tires, and narrower aero handlebar to compensate for the aerodynamics. That's better than spending a whopping $10k+ just to get an aero frame bike that doesn't come with narrow aero handle bars
In 2007 I had an Allez Pro frameset built up to spec for me with all Shimano Ultegra & Mavic Kysirium Elite wheels with the rest of the bike kitted out with Specialized parts. Loved that bike & still have it. Only thing I hated about the bike was that I could only fit 700x23 tires, as 700x25 was too big for the rear end. Then I bought my 2019 Specialized Roubaix Expert Di2 and swapped out the handlebars to carbon Specialized bars, changed out the crankset and cassette to my preferred combo, and slapped on some 700x30 tires. Yeah, that bike is smooth and much more comfortable, but it has not been as fun for me as the Allez Pro. Now, with this new offering, Specialized is making me want to revert back to basics with an aluminum Allez and build a new one up to spec!! The wife will not be pleased that I have the new bike bug, again...........
I bought a Trek Emonda ALR 5 in 2016 while I was looking to buy an Emonda SL. The ALR was an exact copy of the SL just in AL, and had the same ride qualities, and same fork, so why spend 3K when I could pick up the ALR and move my Ultegra 11 speed from another bike to the frame and then put the new 11 speed 105 on my old bike so I could sell it. I still have the ALR and recently upgraded it to SRAM Force eTap AXS rim brake version. It is a fantastic frame and rides like a dream, I will not get rid of this bike. I will buy and sell other bikes, but this is my keeper bike. Before I moved to AXS, it weighed in at 15.9, now it weighs in just a hair over 16.
I went from Aluminium 700 to carbon when I splurged on the Cervelo Soloist (big fan of Team CSC) back in 2006. Two years ago, when looking at buying a gravel bike, I spotted a 2nd hand but pristine Cannondale Slate at a price that was very hard to ignore. Initially I was concerned about its ride quality but with the carbon Oliver Lefty, carbon flared handlebars and carbon seat post, it's a joy to ride and can't fault its ride quality. Yes, I could've gone for a carbon Giant Revolt, Specialized Diverge or Cervelo Aspero but have no regrets with the Slate and $1000s cheaper.
I have an aluminum Kona Jake, I love the ride. It has the Tiagra group set, I have had zero issues in 10 years of fairly hard riding. The term entry level might put some people off, I've been riding my whole life, it's not entry level to me. It's buying at a price point that works for you. I want a bike I can ride in the city, over pot holes, lock it up on a sign post and go shopping or eat, I don't think I would feel comfortable doing that with a $10,000 carbon bike.
I own 2 carbon road bikes - Scott Solace 30 (8 years old / £1500) and Specialized Tarmac SL6 (2 years old / £3000), plus I have a cheaper aluminium road bike - Pinnacle Laterite 3 (6 years old / £500) which I used as a commuter until I worked from home. Each bike is different to ride and each has its strengths and weaknesses, but I really enjoy riding the aluminium bike. The most expensive bike cost 6 X the cheapest, but definitely doesn't give me 6 X as much fun!
Like you I bought a secondhand Aluminium bike, a Ridley Fenix Classic with shimano 105. 430euros for a comfortable but quick road bike and upgradeable to fill out the 105 groupset. Downside it's limited to 25mm tyres but makes a striking visual presence and my goto ride ahead of my Aluminium Boardman of the same era. Do ride a carbon full Ultegra Boardman for Sunday group rides etc though. Bottom line a well specced Aluminium bike gas go to be well worth a look and the Trek certainly could tick a lot of boxes
I have a alloy roadbike and carbon Aero roadbike. And to be honest i ride my Alloy bike more because its a little bit heavier! Cycling up hills on the heavier bike adds to the challenge of hill climbing. Also i can save my carbon bike for Racing. Ive had my alloy bike for 10 years and its brilliant.
Absolutely agreed. I have a aluminum cyclocross bike (bought before the gravel bikes became popular) and a titanium road bike (covid shopping), and I am very very happy with both. My previous road bike was a carbon Italian bike (mid range) and was always worried about the frame (specially for traveling with it).
I purchased a Cannondale R600 back when aluminum was new. There were all kinds of jokes about the size of the tubes, but nobody could argue with the bike's agility in criteriums. I have three aluminum bikes, two road (getting there in age), and one gravel (less than a year old), and I admit I can't compare the ride quality to carbon. Regardless, I've never felt the "harshness" of the road. I want to try a carbon ride next, but the price is definitely a concern.
Aluminum is real. I bought a Trek 6700 hardtail MTB back in 1999. Hand-made in the USA(back in those days) from Alpha ZX aluminum. It was superb when I got it and is still as superb today after 24 years of riding. I love steel frames also but my experience with aluminum and Trek has been great. My steel Condor Fratelo met a sorry end under a London bus and I am thinking of replacing it. Fairlight Strael vs Trek Domane AL5. Tough choice.
What other industry, past or present, has such a polarizing topic that has split the buying public like rim vs. disc brakes? What worked for decades has been improved upon by discs albeit at a higher price of entry than the good old rim brakes The closest analogy I can come up with is when the Floyd rose tremolo was introduced to guitarists. It promised to stay in tune better with a locking nut and the ability to use the tremolo to raise or lower string tension. Tangible improvements! However, traditionalists stuck with the easier to maintain and simpler standard tremolo, while advanced technical guitarists moved to try the new “standard”. People who adopted learned it was harder to maintain because changing strings was a much more involved process. The cost to maintain was higher too. Today both options still exist for the consumer. The old standard is way more pervasive than the Floyd rose tremolo is. Could the bike industry learn from this? What other examples of progress didn’t replace the older simpler standard?
1,800 dollars US for a Tiarga model is crazy expensive, i understand its replacing 105 becuase 105 is now electronic but thats still out rages to me. I also would have loved a rim break Allez version in 2023. The Cannondale Caad13 is 1,900 Dollars with full 105 and rim breaks and the Caynon Endurace 8 is 1,800 dollars for a full 105 and dics Breaks. I'm sure they are many other as well, those are just 2 examples. Both being cheaper (Spec wise) and better options for that price point. Mechanical 105 is amazing probably the best and only Groupset anyone ever needs, really. I recon if you are thinking of spending that much money on a bike, get more bank for value and don't get an Allez sport and get a different bike or get the claris version for just a bit over 1000 dollars. The allez version at 1,200 US Dollars: Comes tubeless ready if you change the wheels... for 1,200 dollars is a steel. if you only have 1,200 dollars to spend on a bike the allez is probably the best you can get.
Lost in the discussion about the purchase price of bicycles is the cost of maintenance. These new bikes with internally routed everything are substantially more difficult to service, especially with cables and lines going through handlebars, stems, and head tubes. Better hope you don't need steering bearing service; a 20 minute operation on an old bike is now hours on a new bike.
Love my 20 year old aluminum bike, had the rear brake bridge raised by a bike builder and use 28mm (will fit 30mm) on both ends, the larger tires add to the comfort and for anything other than massive distances it is comfortable enough. I've even raced it in events where the organizers put the bikes in a truck or trailer to transport to the beginning of the race, rather than risk my carbon bikes. The aluminum bike certainly doesn't slow me down any and a friend of mine actually sold his expensive carbon bike after riding with me and bought a cheaper bike, he finally realized it's not about the bike after all.
Broke the Colnago carbon ,,, that hurts ,, so I went back to my aluminum 6061, 7000, 7005 bikes,,,they take a beating and keep on riding…enjoy the ride,, life is short….
I just picked up a vintage trek aluminum 1100 in great condition for $60. After $250 in upgrades (saddle, chain, brake lines & tuneup). I have a pretty decent bike to see if I want to continue this hobby. Id love to get a trek domane with all the new tech but I'll hold off and see if I am still cycling this time next year. Aluminum is great for a starter.
Both the Allez & the ALR were loads better & lighter bikes in rim brake models. Pity these two companies no longer offer them But hey we can always find them for sale right 😉 Also both models are still available in 2022 model on their websites ALR in frameset & Allez as Elite
There are many, many more high end carbon frames to choose from than high end aluminum. So you limit your choices a lot by going down this route if you are an ambitious rider.
Which one should I buy and honestly bot confused on pick the right bike because I show many bikes but I liked 2 one is Trek Dumane AL 3 and specialised allez so both are gravel bikes but specialised have good frame with front carbon fork full and with normal gears and tyers are good but in Trek bike there is only carbon fork on the clipping points not full and other thing is in Trek Shimano Sora is there which is better than specialized offers and tyers in Trek is ok ok not like specialized so please help me to get right one. Just loved your content. Your help would be great and appreciated 👍🙏😁and 3rd option is Marin too. Specialized is 1kg less than Trek bike.and as per many peoples told specialized is good at frame so that is main thing too.
Carbon fibre isn't being recycled, and broken/worn out frames and other bits and pieces from other industries are piling up. What about magnesium frames? Super magnesium has great potential.
Thank you for this interesting video. It's amazing to see, how affordable good aluminium frames have become. Back in 2003, when aluminium was the big thing, i bought a Principia Rex e frameset with carbon forks, which cost me almost 1400 Euros 😂...20 years ago. And today you get a complete bike with a quite nice frameset like the Emonda for almost the same price, inflation in mind. Now, that's excellent value! You don't have to spend a fortune to get a pretty good bike.
I always prefer aluminium as the right material for the bike frame. At the beginning of this year I bought a Cannondale CAAD13 Disc 105. I rode it without any problems the whole season this year. Great bike. I'm happier with it than with carbon models.
I wanted a Domane SL5 but I had bills to pay so I ended up with a Domane AL 5 with the Shimano 105. Properly tuned, the mechanical 105 is a dream. I accidentally leaned my bike against something and dropped it! I was so choked but since it's alloy I wasn't worried about hidden cracks. I wish it was a bit lighter but it's a really awesome bike!
Over the decades, I've owned road bikes in steel, carbon, and aluminum. Currently, I ride an Emonda ALR. In general, aluminum bikes represent a really good value with ride quality that isn't that much worse than the other materials. I think where aluminum bikes lack the most is in aerodynamics when compared to carbon. Although it's nice that metallic bikes tend to have standardized parts (e.g., 27.2mm posts, BSA BBs, etc.) and external cables.
I've never been too worried about the supposed "harsh" ride characteristics of aluminium frames. Even less these days now we are all riding much wider tores. My main concern has really been sweat corrosion, which often happens under the paint and is therefore hard to detect before it's too late. It's happened a few times, so you need to keep on top of cleaning and inspection. That said, in term of overall durability and longevity, I rate aluminium over carbon. Obviously corossion-free titanium would be ideal. But according to Peak Torque, the material itself doesn't automatically guarantee a compliant ride. So, for the money, I reckon aluminium takes the cake.
Tinsel strength of aluminum used to be a thing against aluminum, in the past. I'm not sure it applies today, but it used to. We used to sell carbon over aluminum with this factor mentioned. Carbon does not break down overtime like aluminum. I'm not expert though!
I have just received my ALR6 through. Very comfy bike, the carbon forks mark a huge difference. Compared to my carbon bike it is ever so slightly more sluggish but that could be down to the stock wheels fitted. Looking forward to putting some carbon rims on to see the difference. Very happy with the purchase though 😁
I have a carbon TCR and my old CAAD10. Both great to ride. TCR has less fork buzz. Caad10 smoother on the stays. Bike prices are a rip off now. Using 28mm on aluminium will be fine. Also when you crash you don’t have to second guess aluminium.
I've just bought a nearly new aluminium Emonda, Purple Flip colour with rim brakes. I've upgraded the wheels to a custom built set I have. Just a lovely go to workhorse in this age of overpriced bikes.
I ride a 2018 Emonda ALR 6. I noticed that on turns I don't feel confident unlike the CAAD10 that I had. The Caad10 just seem like it's on rails, I just wish I never sold it.
The new Allez may have mudguard eyelets but doesn't mean anything will fit them. I have the 2019 version which also has eyelets but clearance in the front or lack of means they might as well not be there!
giant contend could be a great bike to highlight at some point. i have the 2022 guant contend 1 in the rosewood colorway; it came with 2x9 sora, i swapped in some 2x11 shimano spare parts i had lying around... it has rim brakes, 33mm measured width rear and 31.5mm measured width front. it can fit mudguards with 28mm tires (never tried). the bike feels so nice. giant also does the contend ar: disc brakes, slightly more 'endurance' geometry. i have never ridden it but if it is as nice as the rim brake model i have.... it could be just right for a lot of people. but i still love rim brakes haha
I’ll take the spesh. Headset routed cables are jsut dumb - not only a pain to service but also degrade shift performance with friction inducing extra bends. Just a silly fashion. Also smoothing welds just hides bad welds… Its an alloy frame, wear the welds with pride :)
I have been riding Specialized aluminum bikes for years and a big fan. Last year I bought a carbon frame one and was greatly disappointed that there was no weight saving over my favorite ten year older frame. Sold it at cost. The profiles were bigger maybe that's the main reason but still no excuse.
I hv TREK Madone 2 series, combination of aluminium and carbon fork with ultegra R8000 mechanical. Weight just 7.6kg. Smooth and reliable machine.. compare to some carbon frame bike
I enjoy riding my BMC Roadmachine X that has an aluminium frame with carbon forks. It’s fun to ride and serves as my winter bike and for summer trails. Pretty responsive, not as fast as my carbon road bike, but that’s partly down to the 1x. And I’m glad I was riding this one, when I had a black ice spill early last year.
Good information. May I make one suggestion? When discussing weights could you add a short caption to the video that tells me the Imperial conversions (pounds). Example: 8 kg = 17.64 lbs. We in America are still wedded to our pounds and ounces. I am well aware that your system of weights and measures is far superior to ours, but I’m having trouble getting the full story when all your measurements are in metric. I find myself stopping the video and asking Siri for conversions. Just a suggestion…to increase the value and the reach of your great advice and analysis.
There is a Cannondale CAAD12 Disc for sale near me, mechanical Dura Ace disc groupset, Fulcrum Zero DB wheelset for 1900 EUR. It's been up for sale for like two months now, yet people buy all kind of sh*t for twice/triple the price, because it's not aluminium. Go figure.
I got frameset but 54 as only one left, I normally use 56, looking to slap SRAM red axs and Deda handlebars, stem seatpost and build my own wheels with berd spokes and DT Swiss hubs, maybe ceramic speed ospw and Garmin stuff for power meter stuff, be max of 8kg with lights, bell, all sensors, axs dropper So my Emonda ALR be nice, got as want a bike safe to lock up as not worry about carbon breaking on it and aero and durable, didn't really aim for light weight
Hi David great video . Have you ever riden kinesis aluminium frames? Just wondering if you have ever reviewed them . Looking at the 4 s and thinking it would make a nice build. Many thanks paul
The 2023 Emonda ALR frame is as hard and twitchy as a teenager on Friday night. But that makes it also a bit more exciting than average gravel bikes, and serves well in crit racing.
@@happydogg312 Yes, on the Emonda ALR your handlebars are much lower than on the Domane frame. That makes me ca. 1km/h faster (on the Emonda ALR) than on my gravel bike, but it's not as comfy on longer rides.
In terms of compliance, how does titanium compare to carbon for comfort on a long ride? Trying to find a balance between something i can ride everyday but still stay with the peloton if i enter the occasional race or group ride. I’m leaning toward an entry level Giant TCR but the Ribble endurance Ti disc is very appealing for durability
Local trek employee was really selling the carbon frame Emonda, they are beautiful, but at 3k+ it seemed steep for my budget. For me, the grams don’t matter, but rather riding quality. But then he stated they are more durable and will last longer than an Al one. Can anyone confirm his assessment? I would like to save some money, but if the carbon will, in theory last longer, it would be worth the extra wait.
Well I'm on a 20 year old aluminum bike, it was a warranty from an earlier aluminum bike that cracked at the head tube, but no issues at all with this one after 20 years.
Time to name which bikes have "bad carbon frames" which make them less comfortable than other ones. We've heard it so many times, surely some brand(s) is famous for making poor carbon ? This feels like its never discussed.
Looks like the big marquee are going the Decathlon way. 😂😂😂 With Van Rysel introducing multiple C bikes with focus on Race geometry and a Team next season. It’ll be nice to see how the big brands react. I’m happy riding my Triban with mech disc. Riding the gravel, mud, slush, mountain roads and plains pretty comfortably. 😜
The 400€ bike is kinda getting annoying. First you were so lucky to find that bike in that condition for that price (it is actually hard to source a good second hand bike). Second you invested into repairing and upgrading it, so it is not 400€
I was thinking aluminum carbon fork carbon seat Post El Tegra or dura ace 42 or 48 changing. Goldilocks index Expensive carbon Fragile With gravel Hardfall fragile Aluminum Dent or scratch no problem. The weight difference. How much would it be?
There’s no need to watch GCN anymore just go straight to the manufacturers websites . This is a more honest and realistic approach to review a product let’s hope it stays that way
Having not ridden in ages but a fit individual who is looking to get back into some regular riding, if i were to go with the Allez 2023 is it worth going for the Allez Sport over the standard?
I loved my Allez! I sold it and replaced it with a aluminum Santa Cruz MTB (giving up road cycling for now). Carbon does feel better, but it isn’t always worth the extra cost for simple speed and a little bit of comfort, especially with newer Al bikes looking almost exactly like their Carbon brothers.
I ride an alluminium road bike by Scott. It IS harsh, it IS heavy, and it was very cheap. But I love it. It fits me perfect and when I'm riding alone, it still generates the illusion I am younger, fitter and faster than I actually am. Carbon is awsome, but alloy can still put a smile on your face.
I got a 2023 Allez Sprint with 105 mech. I swapped the wheels for Roval Rapide CLII, changed the bar to Roval Rapide and the stem to Tarmac SL7. Result is a bike that competes with super bikes but at half the price.
I had a 2016 Emonda ALR and replaced the wheels with some carbon wheels and it was a good bike. Since there aren’t any good rim brake bikes I went and found an older Madone frame used and built off it rather than delve into heavy modern bikes that are insane in price. Built my whole bike to practically new for 15% of a new bike and LIGHTER than newer bikes
There is nothing wrong with mechanical 105, i actually chose it over Sram force AXS for my recent road bike purchase!
Same here. Was going to get an SL7 with Ultegra but opted for the 2022 SL6 with mechanical 105!
@@drucejnr Because you didn't get enough money to pay?
@@AndrewWong1995 how would you know anything about my financial status, mr Andrew Wong?
@@drucejnr Just admit it, SL7 is a better all arounder bike, don't tell anyone you chose SL6 over SL7 and 105 over Ultegra for any reason except financial. There are people prefer Shimano over Sram, but your case is not the same sir, SL7 expert is every bit better than SL6 sport giving the doubled price tag.
I have bikes with ultegra and 105 components they are both good and in my opinion you chose very well. Why pay more unless your feeling a valuable improvement is my opinion.
I think this version of the Allez compared much better to the aluminium version of the Domane. Which also has rack and fender mounts and 35mm clearance.
I think the emonda ALR makes for a great crit racing machine. Knowing Trek you can probably sqeeze in 30's anyway. Especially since tire width labels have been getting a little bit narrower recently. The emonda ALR is more equal to the specialized Allez sprint or cannondale Caad13.
I ride a 2022 Trek Emonda ALR. The Ride quality is superb and the weight with 7,6 Kg for a size 60 and 58 mm deep Wheels very low.
I'm lucky enough to have road and mountain bikes of all materials and the high end carbon ones are brilliant. But weirdly, I just see them as sort of disposable, I love owning my metal bikes
Interesting since aluminum isn’t repairable while carbon is
@@kbd13-n9c What, like a split headtube or cracked drop out ? But Its just how I feel about owning my carbon bikes, great ride but not wife material......
Carbon gives you the sense of plastic ,but titanium is we're you keep a bike forever 😉
Can't say enough good things about an aluminum frame / carbon fork combo.
Although Specialized/SRAM head for ages, I 'd go for the Emonda ALR! This bike is a beauty! What a colour scheme! And soooo nice assembled without rough welding....On the other hand I was shocked to see Allez sharing geometry with Roubaix, as always was the aluminium version of Tarmac!
Great coverage of the 'alu' factor, David! Always informative and good stuff! 👍 👍😮
I agree but wish all welds was smooth like bottom bracket too
I ride a LOW aluminum road bike. Rim brakes and mechanical. I love it! LOW is more pricey than a Trek or Specialized, due to it being custom and hand made, but it rides so well! Super responsive and surprisingly forgiving on the road. Thanks again David for giving aluminum frames some much needed love.
Your content is much better than GCN. Continue the great work!
Wow thanks 🙏
I concur.
That is a very low bar😮
@@neilrobinson7965 😂😂
💯
I bought a CAAD13 with 105 last year and loving it as my first road bike. Yes I am considering upgrading to a carbon bike like the supersix but I don't think results will differ much. Love your reviews, keep up the good work! Regards from Holland
That's a great first roadbike!
If money is no issue go ahead 🤣
Two months ago I bought a Ti hardtail and was floored at its smoothness. Since I ride primarily gravel (with some road) I think my next gravel bike will also be Ti. I'm also not a racer so it's an easy decision for me. I think it's high time people consider other bike materials beyond just carbon.
I love titanium for the smoothness it offers
Commencal do not build any carbon bikes because Carbon is not an ecological industry. If you Want one reason to buy alloy bike 👍
@@ariffau I personally have never ridden a carbon MTB. Years ago I had an alloy one, and now the Ti one. However, those are also two characteristics that aren't relevant to me for my type of riding. Only 30% of my riding is on the MTB and then almost all on single track. That's something you'd have to decide for yourself. I wasn't really interested in a carbon MTB - my other choice was a Santa Cruz Chameleon which is alloy.
@@ariffau find a builder who can build you one with short and thick chainstays. My Ti bike is as snappy as a Tarmac and more comfortable than a Roubaix. (I’ve owned multiple versions of both those bikes)
@@4ndyc74 you cannot recycle carbon..
I completely agree. I just purchased a BMC Teammachine ALR Two for $2299. 105 disc brake groupset. It's a fantastic bike. It did need some different wheels. The stock wheels were terribly heavy. Found some nice carbon wheels for $750.
From who?
I still have a Trek Emonda ALR rim brake bike tarted up with all Dura Ace components 👍
Ride it like you stole it! Great bike choice 👍
Ride it like you stole it! Great bike choice 👍
ok ok, I like where they are going with those bikes, but still a little too high for an average person getting pinned by this economy. BUT I will give credit where credit is due, and I approve of those two models for sure.
I’ve worked hard for my whole life and have done relatively well financially so, please don’t take this comment as bragging. I have three road bikes - Cannondale CADD 10, a Trek Domane (Carbon) and a Giant Defy Advance Pro 1 (Carbon). I love gravel riding and racing but, when I bought my gravel race bike I purchased an aluminum Specialized Diverge e5 Comp. To me it rode better than the carbon fiber version of the bike and I am confident it is durable and will last me a good long time. I did upgrade the saddle, the seat post, some of the drivetrain components and have ENVE carbon wheels mounted on the bike. I saved some money and love the way the bike feels. As you stated, David, a good aluminum frame can be better than a less expensive carbon offering. Fantastic content! Keep it up!
I like you personal advice and I have 7 bikes of all materials and like the idea of getting quality over branding and hype. I still like good bikes but it is finding the sweet spot where you just enjoy your cycling.
I love my aluminum gravel bike. It fits, it performes and its just fun to ride.
No propriatery stems, seat posts, complex internal cable routings. Easy to maintain and accessible.
I couldnt care less about the little weight difference to a carbon frame.
Carbon is light to ride but heavy on the mind.
I think the Allez might be a good ”introduction bike” for someone new to road cycling. And later after getting addicted and buying that S5 with Dura-Ace or something similar one can still use the Allez for commuting because of the fender and rack mounts (in Finnish ”työmatkatempo” that roughly means cycling to work as fast as possible and overtaking everyone along the way, not allowing anyone to overtake you).
I never cycle quickly to work, but I always cycle quickly leaving work 😂
@@Andy-co6pn as someone who is regularly running late, its both ways here!
Or ride the allez all the way, all that aero gains is marginal considering you can get a deep carbon wheelset, better tires, and narrower aero handlebar to compensate for the aerodynamics. That's better than spending a whopping $10k+ just to get an aero frame bike that doesn't come with narrow aero handle bars
In 2007 I had an Allez Pro frameset built up to spec for me with all Shimano Ultegra & Mavic Kysirium Elite wheels with the rest of the bike kitted out with Specialized parts. Loved that bike & still have it. Only thing I hated about the bike was that I could only fit 700x23 tires, as 700x25 was too big for the rear end. Then I bought my 2019 Specialized Roubaix Expert Di2 and swapped out the handlebars to carbon Specialized bars, changed out the crankset and cassette to my preferred combo, and slapped on some 700x30 tires. Yeah, that bike is smooth and much more comfortable, but it has not been as fun for me as the Allez Pro.
Now, with this new offering, Specialized is making me want to revert back to basics with an aluminum Allez and build a new one up to spec!! The wife will not be pleased that I have the new bike bug, again...........
I bought a Trek Emonda ALR 5 in 2016 while I was looking to buy an Emonda SL. The ALR was an exact copy of the SL just in AL, and had the same ride qualities, and same fork, so why spend 3K when I could pick up the ALR and move my Ultegra 11 speed from another bike to the frame and then put the new 11 speed 105 on my old bike so I could sell it. I still have the ALR and recently upgraded it to SRAM Force eTap AXS rim brake version. It is a fantastic frame and rides like a dream, I will not get rid of this bike. I will buy and sell other bikes, but this is my keeper bike. Before I moved to AXS, it weighed in at 15.9, now it weighs in just a hair over 16.
I went from Aluminium 700 to carbon when I splurged on the Cervelo Soloist (big fan of Team CSC) back in 2006. Two years ago, when looking at buying a gravel bike, I spotted a 2nd hand but pristine Cannondale Slate at a price that was very hard to ignore. Initially I was concerned about its ride quality but with the carbon Oliver Lefty, carbon flared handlebars and carbon seat post, it's a joy to ride and can't fault its ride quality. Yes, I could've gone for a carbon Giant Revolt, Specialized Diverge or Cervelo Aspero but have no regrets with the Slate and $1000s cheaper.
I have an aluminum Kona Jake, I love the ride. It has the Tiagra group set, I have had zero issues in 10 years of fairly hard riding. The term entry level might put some people off, I've been riding my whole life, it's not entry level to me. It's buying at a price point that works for you. I want a bike I can ride in the city, over pot holes, lock it up on a sign post and go shopping or eat, I don't think I would feel comfortable doing that with a $10,000 carbon bike.
I own 2 carbon road bikes - Scott Solace 30 (8 years old / £1500) and Specialized Tarmac SL6 (2 years old / £3000), plus I have a cheaper aluminium road bike - Pinnacle Laterite 3 (6 years old / £500) which I used as a commuter until I worked from home. Each bike is different to ride and each has its strengths and weaknesses, but I really enjoy riding the aluminium bike. The most expensive bike cost 6 X the cheapest, but definitely doesn't give me 6 X as much fun!
Like you I bought a secondhand Aluminium bike, a Ridley Fenix Classic with shimano 105. 430euros for a comfortable but quick road bike and upgradeable to fill out the 105 groupset. Downside it's limited to 25mm tyres but makes a striking visual presence and my goto ride ahead of my Aluminium Boardman of the same era. Do ride a carbon full Ultegra Boardman for Sunday group rides etc though. Bottom line a well specced Aluminium bike gas go to be well worth a look and the Trek certainly could tick a lot of boxes
I have a alloy roadbike and carbon Aero roadbike. And to be honest i ride my Alloy bike more because its a little bit heavier! Cycling up hills on the heavier bike adds to the challenge of hill climbing. Also i can save my carbon bike for Racing. Ive had my alloy bike for 10 years and its brilliant.
Cube cross race pro 2016. Nice hand built wheels and decent bearing upgrades, cannot fault it.
Absolutely agreed. I have a aluminum cyclocross bike (bought before the gravel bikes became popular) and a titanium road bike (covid shopping), and I am very very happy with both. My previous road bike was a carbon Italian bike (mid range) and was always worried about the frame (specially for traveling with it).
As soon as I saw you had your own channel I instantly subscribed! Always love the content keep it up.
I purchased a Cannondale R600 back when aluminum was new. There were all kinds of jokes about the size of the tubes, but nobody could argue with the bike's agility in criteriums. I have three aluminum bikes, two road (getting there in age), and one gravel (less than a year old), and I admit I can't compare the ride quality to carbon. Regardless, I've never felt the "harshness" of the road. I want to try a carbon ride next, but the price is definitely a concern.
Aluminum is real. I bought a Trek 6700 hardtail MTB back in 1999. Hand-made in the USA(back in those days) from Alpha ZX aluminum. It was superb when I got it and is still as superb today after 24 years of riding. I love steel frames also but my experience with aluminum and Trek has been great. My steel Condor Fratelo met a sorry end under a London bus and I am thinking of replacing it. Fairlight Strael vs Trek Domane AL5. Tough choice.
What other industry, past or present, has such a polarizing topic that has split the buying public like rim vs. disc brakes? What worked for decades has been improved upon by discs albeit at a higher price of entry than the good old rim brakes
The closest analogy I can come up with is when the Floyd rose tremolo was introduced to guitarists. It promised to stay in tune better with a locking nut and the ability to use the tremolo to raise or lower string tension. Tangible improvements! However, traditionalists stuck with the easier to maintain and simpler standard tremolo, while advanced technical guitarists moved to try the new “standard”.
People who adopted learned it was harder to maintain because changing strings was a much more involved process. The cost to maintain was higher too.
Today both options still exist for the consumer. The old standard is way more pervasive than the Floyd rose tremolo is.
Could the bike industry learn from this? What other examples of progress didn’t replace the older simpler standard?
1,800 dollars US for a Tiarga model is crazy expensive, i understand its replacing 105 becuase 105 is now electronic but thats still out rages to me. I also would have loved a rim break Allez version in 2023. The Cannondale Caad13 is 1,900 Dollars with full 105 and rim breaks and the Caynon Endurace 8 is 1,800 dollars for a full 105 and dics Breaks. I'm sure they are many other as well, those are just 2 examples. Both being cheaper (Spec wise) and better options for that price point. Mechanical 105 is amazing probably the best and only Groupset anyone ever needs, really. I recon if you are thinking of spending that much money on a bike, get more bank for value and don't get an Allez sport and get a different bike or get the claris version for just a bit over 1000 dollars.
The allez version at 1,200 US Dollars: Comes tubeless ready if you change the wheels... for 1,200 dollars is a steel. if you only have 1,200 dollars to spend on a bike the allez is probably the best you can get.
Lost in the discussion about the purchase price of bicycles is the cost of maintenance. These new bikes with internally routed everything are substantially more difficult to service, especially with cables and lines going through handlebars, stems, and head tubes. Better hope you don't need steering bearing service; a 20 minute operation on an old bike is now hours on a new bike.
Love my 20 year old aluminum bike, had the rear brake bridge raised by a bike builder and use 28mm (will fit 30mm) on both ends, the larger tires add to the comfort and for anything other than massive distances it is comfortable enough. I've even raced it in events where the organizers put the bikes in a truck or trailer to transport to the beginning of the race, rather than risk my carbon bikes. The aluminum bike certainly doesn't slow me down any and a friend of mine actually sold his expensive carbon bike after riding with me and bought a cheaper bike, he finally realized it's not about the bike after all.
Love how you make a new bike release video into a buyer’s guide
He's a straight up schill.
Thanks. Wanted to add a bit more value to the viewer experience than just talk about the bikes on their own
Broke the Colnago carbon ,,, that hurts ,, so I went back to my aluminum 6061, 7000, 7005 bikes,,,they take a beating and keep on riding…enjoy the ride,, life is short….
I just picked up a vintage trek aluminum 1100 in great condition for $60.
After $250 in upgrades (saddle, chain, brake lines & tuneup). I have a pretty decent bike to see if I want to continue this hobby.
Id love to get a trek domane with all the new tech but I'll hold off and see if I am still cycling this time next year.
Aluminum is great for a starter.
Both the Allez & the ALR were loads better & lighter bikes in rim brake models. Pity these two companies no longer offer them But hey we can always find them for sale right 😉 Also both models are still available in 2022 model on their websites ALR in frameset & Allez as Elite
Couldn’t agree more!
There are many, many more high end carbon frames to choose from than high end aluminum. So you limit your choices a lot by going down this route if you are an ambitious rider.
Which one should I buy and honestly bot confused on pick the right bike because I show many bikes but I liked 2 one is Trek Dumane AL 3 and specialised allez so both are gravel bikes but specialised have good frame with front carbon fork full and with normal gears and tyers are good but in Trek bike there is only carbon fork on the clipping points not full and other thing is in Trek Shimano Sora is there which is better than specialized offers and tyers in Trek is ok ok not like specialized so please help me to get right one. Just loved your content. Your help would be great and appreciated 👍🙏😁and 3rd option is Marin too. Specialized is 1kg less than Trek bike.and as per many peoples told specialized is good at frame so that is main thing too.
Carbon fibre isn't being recycled, and broken/worn out frames and other bits and pieces from other industries are piling up. What about magnesium frames? Super magnesium has great potential.
Got my scultura 400 last year, brand new with a full 105 disc brake for $1000.. sweet deal, no complain
Thank you for this interesting video. It's amazing to see, how affordable good aluminium frames have become. Back in 2003, when aluminium was the big thing, i bought a Principia Rex e frameset with carbon forks, which cost me almost 1400 Euros 😂...20 years ago. And today you get a complete bike with a quite nice frameset like the Emonda for almost the same price, inflation in mind. Now, that's excellent value! You don't have to spend a fortune to get a pretty good bike.
I always prefer aluminium as the right material for the bike frame. At the beginning of this year I bought a Cannondale CAAD13 Disc 105. I rode it without any problems the whole season this year. Great bike. I'm happier with it than with carbon models.
I wanted a Domane SL5 but I had bills to pay so I ended up with a Domane AL 5 with the Shimano 105. Properly tuned, the mechanical 105 is a dream. I accidentally leaned my bike against something and dropped it! I was so choked but since it's alloy I wasn't worried about hidden cracks. I wish it was a bit lighter but it's a really awesome bike!
I have a CAAD 8 aluminium frame that I brought in 2013 and it rides perfect still to this day.
Over the decades, I've owned road bikes in steel, carbon, and aluminum. Currently, I ride an Emonda ALR. In general, aluminum bikes represent a really good value with ride quality that isn't that much worse than the other materials. I think where aluminum bikes lack the most is in aerodynamics when compared to carbon. Although it's nice that metallic bikes tend to have standardized parts (e.g., 27.2mm posts, BSA BBs, etc.) and external cables.
I've never been too worried about the supposed "harsh" ride characteristics of aluminium frames. Even less these days now we are all riding much wider tores.
My main concern has really been sweat corrosion, which often happens under the paint and is therefore hard to detect before it's too late. It's happened a few times, so you need to keep on top of cleaning and inspection.
That said, in term of overall durability and longevity, I rate aluminium over carbon.
Obviously corossion-free titanium would be ideal. But according to Peak Torque, the material itself doesn't automatically guarantee a compliant ride. So, for the money, I reckon aluminium takes the cake.
Tinsel strength of aluminum used to be a thing against aluminum, in the past. I'm not sure it applies today, but it used to. We used to sell carbon over aluminum with this factor mentioned. Carbon does not break down overtime like aluminum. I'm not expert though!
I have just received my ALR6 through. Very comfy bike, the carbon forks mark a huge difference. Compared to my carbon bike it is ever so slightly more sluggish but that could be down to the stock wheels fitted. Looking forward to putting some carbon rims on to see the difference. Very happy with the purchase though 😁
I have a carbon TCR and my old CAAD10. Both great to ride. TCR has less fork buzz. Caad10 smoother on the stays. Bike prices are a rip off now. Using 28mm on aluminium will be fine. Also when you crash you don’t have to second guess aluminium.
I've just bought a nearly new aluminium Emonda, Purple Flip colour with rim brakes. I've upgraded the wheels to a custom built set I have. Just a lovely go to workhorse in this age of overpriced bikes.
I ride a 2018 Emonda ALR 6. I noticed that on turns I don't feel confident unlike the CAAD10 that I had. The Caad10 just seem like it's on rails, I just wish I never sold it.
The new Allez may have mudguard eyelets but doesn't mean anything will fit them. I have the 2019 version which also has eyelets but clearance in the front or lack of means they might as well not be there!
Giant Contend is still an appealing option for allloy roadies….
giant contend could be a great bike to highlight at some point. i have the 2022 guant contend 1 in the rosewood colorway; it came with 2x9 sora, i swapped in some 2x11 shimano spare parts i had lying around... it has rim brakes, 33mm measured width rear and 31.5mm measured width front. it can fit mudguards with 28mm tires (never tried). the bike feels so nice. giant also does the contend ar: disc brakes, slightly more 'endurance' geometry. i have never ridden it but if it is as nice as the rim brake model i have.... it could be just right for a lot of people. but i still love rim brakes haha
A nice aluminium frame, 105 groupset, get your own saddle, pedals and swap up to nice wheels in the future.
I’ll take the spesh. Headset routed cables are jsut dumb - not only a pain to service but also degrade shift performance with friction inducing extra bends. Just a silly fashion.
Also smoothing welds just hides bad welds… Its an alloy frame, wear the welds with pride :)
Love all your Contents mate. Keep up the great work 👍
Thanks Ken
Maybe you could compare these two with a Giant Contend AR1. Keep up the vids which I enjoy. Thanks.
I have been riding Specialized aluminum bikes for years and a big fan. Last year I bought a carbon frame one and was greatly disappointed that there was no weight saving over my favorite ten year older frame. Sold it at cost. The profiles were bigger maybe that's the main reason but still no excuse.
I hv TREK Madone 2 series, combination of aluminium and carbon fork with ultegra R8000 mechanical. Weight just 7.6kg. Smooth and reliable machine.. compare to some carbon frame bike
I enjoy riding my BMC Roadmachine X that has an aluminium frame with carbon forks. It’s fun to ride and serves as my winter bike and for summer trails. Pretty responsive, not as fast as my carbon road bike, but that’s partly down to the 1x.
And I’m glad I was riding this one, when I had a black ice spill early last year.
ALR6 at £2325 - seems a bit pricey for an alu bike to me. You can get a similar spec Titanium bike for that.
I ordered the new Allez Sport a week ago. Should arrive next week, really looking forward to getting out on it.
Good information. May I make one suggestion? When discussing weights could you add a short caption to the video that tells me the Imperial conversions (pounds). Example: 8 kg = 17.64 lbs. We in America are still wedded to our pounds and ounces. I am well aware that your system of weights and measures is far superior to ours, but I’m having trouble getting the full story when all your measurements are in metric. I find myself stopping the video and asking Siri for conversions. Just a suggestion…to increase the value and the reach of your great advice and analysis.
There is a Cannondale CAAD12 Disc for sale near me, mechanical Dura Ace disc groupset, Fulcrum Zero DB wheelset for 1900 EUR. It's been up for sale for like two months now, yet people buy all kind of sh*t for twice/triple the price, because it's not aluminium. Go figure.
My 2005 aluminium Giant TCR with front and rear carbon forks weighs less than 8,5 kg, with rim brakes in those days of course.
Bike are ridiculous now. Internal cabling, disc breaks, and 4K+ price tag. Buy used. Bikes are cheaper on the second hand market than ever.
I got frameset but 54 as only one left, I normally use 56, looking to slap SRAM red axs and Deda handlebars, stem seatpost and build my own wheels with berd spokes and DT Swiss hubs, maybe ceramic speed ospw and Garmin stuff for power meter stuff, be max of 8kg with lights, bell, all sensors, axs dropper
So my Emonda ALR be nice, got as want a bike safe to lock up as not worry about carbon breaking on it and aero and durable, didn't really aim for light weight
Hi David great video . Have you ever riden kinesis aluminium frames? Just wondering if you have ever reviewed them . Looking at the 4 s and thinking it would make a nice build. Many thanks paul
The second channel on my subscription list after GCN❤
The 2023 Emonda ALR frame is as hard and twitchy as a teenager on Friday night.
But that makes it also a bit more exciting than average gravel bikes, and serves well in crit racing.
@@happydogg312 Yes, on the Emonda ALR your handlebars are much lower than on the Domane frame. That makes me ca. 1km/h faster (on the Emonda ALR) than on my gravel bike, but it's not as comfy on longer rides.
In terms of compliance, how does titanium compare to carbon for comfort on a long ride? Trying to find a balance between something i can ride everyday but still stay with the peloton if i enter the occasional race or group ride. I’m leaning toward an entry level Giant TCR but the Ribble endurance Ti disc is very appealing for durability
This was a great video David. One of the best. Good honest advice in here. 👍
Local trek employee was really selling the carbon frame Emonda, they are beautiful, but at 3k+ it seemed steep for my budget. For me, the grams don’t matter, but rather riding quality. But then he stated they are more durable and will last longer than an Al one.
Can anyone confirm his assessment? I would like to save some money, but if the carbon will, in theory last longer, it would be worth the extra wait.
Well I'm on a 20 year old aluminum bike, it was a warranty from an earlier aluminum bike that cracked at the head tube, but no issues at all with this one after 20 years.
Guilty just brought an caad 12 takint it tomorrow first 5 minutes shocked me it feels amazing, 500 quid
Cannondale CAAD 13 is available with 105 DI2. But it’s $3700 USD. That puts you in most brands mechanical 105 entry carbon range
Cannondale CAAD13 serving me well so far!
Disc Brakes = Yes! Big Tire Clearance = Yes! 😎💯
TREK ALR 5 is so beautiful but with maximum 28 tyre clearence is not the allround bike it could have been.
everyone compares good alloy frames to bad carbon ones but no one ever mentions any examples, what is a bad carbon frame in today's market?
Time to name which bikes have "bad carbon frames" which make them less comfortable than other ones. We've heard it so many times, surely some brand(s) is famous for making poor carbon ? This feels like its never discussed.
Looks like the big marquee are going the Decathlon way. 😂😂😂
With Van Rysel introducing multiple C bikes with focus on Race geometry and a Team next season. It’ll be nice to see how the big brands react.
I’m happy riding my Triban with mech disc. Riding the gravel, mud, slush, mountain roads and plains pretty comfortably. 😜
I've ordered a Emonda ALR. I'm very excited. Any recommendations on wheels?
I'm currently using Allez Rim Brake, and its good to know that there is disc brake version.
And steel too.
Yup steel is good shout but often pricier than aluminium
@@davidarthur yep, I can attest to that.
The 400€ bike is kinda getting annoying. First you were so lucky to find that bike in that condition for that price (it is actually hard to source a good second hand bike). Second you invested into repairing and upgrading it, so it is not 400€
I was thinking aluminum carbon fork carbon seat Post El Tegra or dura ace 42 or 48 changing. Goldilocks index Expensive carbon Fragile With gravel Hardfall fragile Aluminum Dent or scratch no problem. The weight difference. How much would it be?
You don't see much about it but Cannondale still offers the CAAD 13 with rim brakes at just under $2k.
Mainly becuase this industry has gotten insane with the prices lately
There’s no need to watch GCN anymore just go straight to the manufacturers websites .
This is a more honest and realistic approach to review a product let’s hope it stays that way
Having not ridden in ages but a fit individual who is looking to get back into some regular riding, if i were to go with the Allez 2023 is it worth going for the Allez Sport over the standard?
I loved my Allez! I sold it and replaced it with a aluminum Santa Cruz MTB (giving up road cycling for now).
Carbon does feel better, but it isn’t always worth the extra cost for simple speed and a little bit of comfort, especially with newer Al bikes looking almost exactly like their Carbon brothers.
Aluminum is more environmentally friendly as well.
Merci pour cette revue éclairante! Juste ce que je voulais. J'hésite parts acheter le modèle "allez". Sportivement.
Karll de Lyon
Steel all the way.
Midrange/cheap carbon is in the same $600-800 price range as Aluminium frames from the big budget "middlemen" brands like Specialized and Trek
The anodized version of the CAAD 12 is less than 1200g. I had this bike and it was fast and comfy.
Is much more comfortable then people would expect it to be.
Been down the rabbit hole of the old Starship and U2 tubing. At 58kg I wonder how smooth the frames would ride and how long they'd last!
When a bike, cost as much and sometimes more than a motorcycle, it has become laughable !